Gone Medieval - Henry II & Thomas Becket: A Doomed Friendship

Episode Date: July 12, 2024

It's 1163; Thomas Becket has cast off the shackles of his working class roots to become King Henry II's right-hand man. He is appointed to the highest position in the land next to the Crown; Archbishop of Canterbury. But Church and state are at loggerheads, with Henry and Thomas at the centre of the storm. Across four special episodes, Gone Medieval is charting Becket's meteoric rise, his disastrous fall leading to his murder and the spectacular consequences which spawned a world famous legacy.This is part two; Matt Lewis is joined by Dr. Paul Webster to analyse the personal relationship between a king and an archbishop. Why did Henry and Becket willingly choose to sacrifice their trusted friendship on the altar of medieval power politics? How did Henry and Becket, once the staunchest of allies, become bitter and bickering rivals? Was Becket's murder inevitable?Gone Medieval is presented by Matt Lewis and Dr. Eleanor Janega. It was edited by Ella Blaxill, the producers are Joseph Knight and Rob Weinberg. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff.Gone Medieval is a History Hit podcast.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original TV documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Sign up HERE for 50% off your first 3 months using code ‘MEDIEVAL’ https://historyhit.com/subscriptionYou can take part in our listener survey here: https://uk.surveymonkey.com/r/6FFT7MK Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From long-loss Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr. Eleanor Jarniger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life, only on history hit. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries

with a brand-new release every week exploring everything from the ancient world, to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Welcome to Gone Medieval. I'm Matt Lewis. This month, Eleanor Yarniger and I are marking the 850th anniversary of King Henry II's penance for the murder of Thomas Beckett. Across four special episodes, we're recounting the Archbishop's meteoric rise his disastrous fall, leading to his murder and the spectacular consequences which spawned a world-famous legacy. In last week's episode, Eleanor and I told the beginnings of Beckett's story, born the son of an affluent textile merchant. We saw how Beckett cast off the shackles of his working-class roots and embarked on a dazzling rise through the political ranks of England.

He forged a strong friendship with the king, which culminated in his appointment as Archbishop of Canterbury in 1162. That is where we left Beckett, sitting pretty in the highest religious position in the country, so do go back and listen to the rise of Thomas Beckett if you haven't done so yet. Today we pick up the thread in 1163. 12th century England was in the depths of a political, crisis. Church and state were at loggerheads. King Henry II had ordered the passage of the constitutions of Clarendon, a set of laws designed to curtail the powers of the church and increase the crown's influence over the investiture of bishops. But the Archbishop of Canterbury, Henry's

erstwhile friend, Thomas Beckett, refused to give his assent. He would not allow the crown to, as he saw it, whittle away the power of the church bit by bit. Affronted by the archbishop's criticism, Henry clenched his iron fist and put Beckett on trial for challenging his royal authority. Beckett, fearing for his life, fled to France and the court of Henry's rival, Louis the 7th. Most people know what happened next. Henry and Beckett's relationship deteriorated terminally over the next six years. The petty back and forth of letters,

excommunications and indictments across the English Channel was unrelenting. And it ultimately culminated in Beckett's murder on the 27th of December 1170. But we're getting ahead of ourselves. That's next week's episode.

At the heart of every crisis lies the destruction of a relationship. And this one is no different. So today, our focus is on the personal relationship between a king and an archbishop. It's a story of tragedy, remorse and a heavy dose of rage. And it may seem odd to us today that both Henry and Beckett would willingly choose to sacrifice their trusted friendship on the altar of medieval power politics. How exactly did Henry and Beckett go from being the staunchest of allies to bitter and bickering

rivals in the space of just six years? Did duty urge both the king and the archbishop to put their institutions first, to pursue their cause to the end, whatever the cost? Was their relationship merely collateral damage? Well, you and I are about to find out, and I'm delighted to be joined today by Dr Paul Webster from the School of History, Archaeology and Religion at the University of Cardiff. His focus on kingship and cults of saints in the 12th century makes him a perfect fit for today's topic. Welcome to God Medieval, Paul. It's fantastic to have here. Thanks, Matt. It's great to be here, looking forward to it. Yeah, I've definitely excited to delve into this a little bit more and find out more about the relationship. So I guess to start us off with,

when does Thomas Beckett first come to the attention of Henry II? I think he comes to the attention of Henry II quite early in Henry's reign. Very quickly, actually, he becomes Royal Chancellor. And he must come to Henry's attention through the household of Archbishop Theobald of Canterbury. And he's been in Theobald's household for a while at the point where Henry comes to the throne. Theobald is perhaps even looking for someone to place within Henry's household to have a sort of friendly line for the Archbishop of Canterbury, if you like. And right at the point where Henry comes to the throne, where he's choosing new officials and very quickly Beckett finds himself in the office of Chancellor. So it could be a very useful man for Theobald on the inside.

Yes, potentially, if it works. Yeah, if it works. And given that we know where their relationship will go and we'll get further through that, they seem like really unlikely people to have a kind of relationship that seems to blossom a little bit. We've got this guy from a really humble background, and we've got this man who is in charge of one of the largest empires in Europe, in terms of the size of its territories and things like that. And Thomas is a slightly older man, but a really accomplished figure at what he's doing.

Henry is very young and new to what he's doing but has an awful lot of power. All of those things don't seem to stop them getting on quite well, do they? No, they do seem to be at least outwardly very close indeed throughout the period of Thomas's chancellorship. And I think one of the chroniclers talks of them appearing as if they're the closest of friends, almost of one mind. And how you explain that? I'm not sure. I suppose, as you say, Beckett comes across as very accomplished and he is able to secure what Henry wants of him. And Henry is very much, I suppose, engaged in putting people around him who can control the different aspects of governing, this body of territory that he's put together.

And Beckett is clearly someone who is capable and able to marshal people and resources to help Henry to do that. And I guess Beckett is able to fill a gap that Henry really needs plugging with someone hugely competent. England has a much more centralised government than most of the rest of Henry's kind of collection of territory. So whoever he vests that power in as Chancellor, he's actually going to have a great deal of authority and control over a significant part of Henry's lands. And so he needs someone who is really, really, really good. And it's maybe telling that he immediately lands on Beckett as the prime candidate for this. Yeah. And perhaps through Theobald, he sees some of the things that Beckett has been doing within the Archbishop of Canterbury during the latter years of Stephen's reign.

perhaps Theobald's recommendation is also important there. But it does seem like, yes, very quickly he's able to sort of marshal a team as Chancellor, if you like, and the number of clerks and people like that that they're talking about that are working with Beckett, ultimately some of whom he will take with him when he becomes Archbishop of Canterbury later on. Yeah. And so in that initial role as Chancellor, what is Beckett's function? What does the Chancellor do at this point in medieval England?

So the Chancellor is, in a lot of ways, the right-house. man of the king. He's nominally in charge of the Royal Writing Office, and essentially he is, therefore, in charge of the issuing of all documents that are being sent out in the king's name, whether that's letters, instructions, orders, writs, whether it's maybe more formal documents like charters or all sort of title deeds to things that the king is giving to people. So there There isn't much in the sort of day-to-day running of royal administration that Beckett isn't going to know about as Chancellor and that probably he is going to have consulted the King about as well, so that he is enacting the royal will and he's the person making sure that filters down from

the King to the people who need to know, who will ultimately be enforcing things. It's not necessarily a role where he's looking after the King's courts in a judicial sense, as there's another official called the Justiciere, who is particularly important when the king is out of the kingdom for that sort of thing. But still as Chancellor Beckett has an awful lot of power and authority and would be seen as essentially second to the king. Yeah, I think it's, is it fair to say, it's sort of a medieval equivalent of a prime minister in that he's not driving policy, but what he is is beneath the king, he is the senior figure of the government of the realm. Yep, absolutely, very much. So the prime minister equivalent is a good one to think about

there, though with a more active king than you would think of in modern context. Yeah, yeah, before a constitutional monarchy. Yes, indeed. And how does Beckett perform in this role? How does he do? He seems to be very good at it. I mean, Henry is clearly keen to reward him further later on. You know, he's there at the key moments. He's participating, for instance, when Henry goes on campaign in southwestern France and in Toulouse or near Toulouse in 1159. He's acting as the king's envoy to the court of the King of France, and in one instance he goes to the Court of the King of France with an entourage that the chroniclers comment, or they comment on people's observations of that entourage, where they say, gosh, if this is how the Chancellor of the King of England

travels, how much more magnificent must the King of England himself be? In that sense, he gets that idea of making a sort of diplomatic statement and statement of Henry II's power or the power that Henry II would like to be seen to have. I always think particularly that visit to Paris is really interesting because it strikes me that what Henry is really after is someone to do the legwork of being a monarch that he doesn't really like doing. He's not very interested in the pomp and ceremony of being king. He refuses to wear his crown all the time.

He's rather be out riding and hunting in his muddy clothes than in his royal robes. So Thomas is quite good at fulfilling that function of display for Henry. So when he goes to Paris, it strikes me that it's because Henry doesn't want to do that whole pageant and display. And it almost works twice as well as he might have hoped because people have this impression that if this is just the king's chancellor, the king must be so magnificent. But actually Thomas is doing it because Henry doesn't want to be that magnificent. Yeah. And there are probably also things that Thomas can do in terms of negotiating that Henry can't. To some extent, it's a sort of talks before talks exercise, but it's done with enough pomp and ceremony that's, as you say, that Henry gains from the display that Beckett puts on. And this must also cost

quite a bit of money. But Beckett, I think, is very good at putting on the appearance that's needed as well. I suspect that's something actually that you see throughout his life. Yeah, yeah. I think one of the things about Beckett is he just seems to be very, very good at whatever it is he's given to do, which is of benefit when he's on your side. But maybe not so useful when he's in the opposition camp. And by the end of his chancellorship, sort of when we're thinking on the cusp of this move into being the Archbishop of Canterbury, how important is Beckett to Henry? I think he's very important. I mean, it goes back to this idea of Beckett as Henry's right-hand man. And of Henry as a king, I suppose, who is thinking about the reach of royal power and who up to that point has been able to use Beckett as one of his chief agents in, well, I suppose the very beginning of Henry's reign in kind of restoring royal power to what he thinks royal power should be. but also then in kind of continuing that process of making Henry look like a king and a strong king with it.

And during Beckett's time as Chancellor, just before we bring that to a close, do we see at any point cracks developing in their relationship? I mean, does it seem perfect or can we see signs that everything isn't quite as roses it might appear? Inevitably, there are things that Beckett will have been involved with that I suppose could come back to bite him. And that's, I suppose, the sort of process of, you know, being the king's man and the king's agents and sometimes possibly pushing things further than later scrutiny would allow. And that could be in terms of the revenues he's been able to acquire as the sort of almost the perks of the office,

those sorts of things. I suppose we've also seen instances in which Henry and Beckett, whilst ostensibly acting as kind of jocular friends, have, I suppose, had sort of gentle disputes. There's an instance where the king and Beckett encounter, I think, a beggar. This is recounted in the later lives of Beckett, and they sort of argue about who should give their cloak as an act of charity. Beckett is trying to get the king to do it as an act of royal charity, and the king is saying, no, you should give yours, because he doesn't want to give up his cloak. So there are those sorts of things, and of course they're used by the later people writing

about Beckett as a saint and spun in particular ways, but I suppose they do suggest also that maybe Beckett and Henry are not quite the bond of friendship that it could be seen as. Yeah, it seems sometimes that they have this kind of jocular relationship, but actually if you take a step back and look at it, there is a deliberate way in which Beckett is always the butt of the joke. And it's almost like reminding him, you know, you might be powerful and you might have all of this authority in my kingdom, but don't forget who's actually at the top.

Yep, yeah. The sense of the king is always the person who can cut people back down. And that does come across. And there is a sort of bigger question there around, you know, ideas of kingship and how far could kings have close friends? And if something appeared to be a friendship, was it or was it a relationship bound up in the moment and in the roles that they were performing, but always linked to those roles? Yeah, there's a danger of two professional individuals working closely together and assuming a friendship there just because they're both competent and they happen to complement each other. And so I guess moving forward, when and why does Henry, fall upon the idea of making Thomas Archbishop of Canterbury? Well, it's not something he can do until there's a vacancy. And in April 1161, Theobald of Beck, who is the previous Archbishop of Canterbury, dies. And we talked a little bit about Theobo before, and the idea that Theobo perhaps

had been instrumental in bringing Beckett to Henry's attention seven, eight years earlier. And I think it's quite soon after that that Henry thinks it would be a really good idea if the person who was his chancellor running the royal government was also the senior churchman in the kingdom. And, you know, there are parallels for this. Bishops have been chancellors before. Archbishops have been chancellors before. It's a model that's worked very well in the German Empire. So from Henry's point of view, it looks like a kind of win-win.

And certainly the person who is given what are called the temporalities of the Archbishop of Canterbury, the kind of things that go with the lands, basically. and the person who gets that after Theobald's death is Beckett. And very quickly from there, Henry is moving towards thinking about Beckett's installation as Archbishop. And it takes around a year to get there. And of course, in that time, the money from the temporalities is coming through Beckett's Chancellor to the King. But, yeah, that seems to be the direction of travel. So it feels like from the things that you've said that there's lots of precedent for this

and that we know Beckett is an incredibly competent person, it seems like it, could have appeared to have been a good idea at the time? I think to Henry it appeared an excellent idea, and it appeared a way of further consolidating his royal authority and having his man into key top positions and building from there. So how does Thomas react to this idea? What the sources seem to tell us is that Thomas is less convinced and that he takes a certain amount of persuading,

though Henry is quite keen to do the persuading in this instance. it does seem likely that Thomas sees this as a slightly tricky brief and as something where he is effectively being asked to serve at least two masters and possibly more, given that we're looking at the kind of interplay between the monastic community at Canterbury, which we argue that it has the right to appoint an archbishop. The bishops is particularly in the Archipiscopal province of Canterbury, who reckon they have a say. And then, of course, you know, outside of this, you have the question of the archbishop. is obviously answerable also to the Pope, but ultimately, because it's the role of an archbishop, answerable to God. And balancing all that, as well as being answerable to the king, I suspect Thomas can see that as a bigger set of challenges than Henry does. Yeah, because at some point it's going to demand the question of what order you put those things in. Absolutely, yeah. Particularly of Henry's concern, there's God, the Pope and Henry, and, you know, where does Henry sit in that triumvirate?

Exactly. And, you know, the monks of Canterbury are looking for. someone who'll defend their church. The bishops are looking for someone who will stand up and lead them. Both those groups are looking at him and going, but he's been royal chancellor and going hunting with the king and going fighting with the king and, you know, sending out all these documents relating to the increase of royal authority. How's that going to work? And at this point, he's not even a priest, is he? He's not. No, he's ordained priest the day before he becomes archbishop. Yeah, so it doesn't look like an ideal candidate from inside the church, I guess. And I suppose is also the question of how much he must have known about what Henry wanted to do. Essentially,

Henry wants authority over the church in England. He wants explicit power that he thinks kings are entitled to and that, you know, it's part of the long-running investiture crisis, all of these questions about where that power sits. Henry is trying to regain some of that power. So in some ways, Thomas is a bit of a plant to go in there and effectively give away all the powers of the office he's about to have. And Thomas must, know that that also is going to cause him severe problems because a good Archbishop of Canterbury wouldn't do that. And the one thing Thomas is, is good at what he does. Yes, and he probably knows a certain amount of the precedent here exactly from the earlier phases of the Investiture

controversy that you mentioned, you know, Archbishop Anselm fighting with William Rufus and with Henry I, and instances like that. And actually one of the things that at one point Beckett tries is to secure the canonisation of Ansel. And obviously he knows what Henry has done in relation to Royal Authority in terms of the sort of secular legal side of things, he must know what Henry is hoping to do further down the line. Yeah. I think it always strikes me that Henry is perhaps the one thinking this is a brilliant idea, let's steam ahead full speed, and Beckett's the one going, oh, this is not going to work, this is going to cause some big problems. And again, we've got that slight imbalance in their relationship that Henry is the one who'll get what he wants.

what do you think then happens to Thomas when he becomes archbishop? He sort of said he doesn't really want to do it. He's been pushed into it. We have this image in lots of the later accounts that he has this Damascene conversion and suddenly becomes the most committed priest and bishop that you can imagine. But the bottom line is that he's not going to be willing to play Henry's game. So what do you think is going on? Is this a genuine religious moment for him?

or is he playing a more political game? It's a very difficult question. And there is obviously the question there of how far he's been an underlyingly religious man previously, but it's just not something that's been visible to people. My feeling is that there isn't an overnight conversion, but he does understand that he needs to look like a churchman now and he needs to look like a man of God rather more than he did before, so that he will at least make enough of a display,

of that, that later writers can work with it and turn it into this idea of a Damascene conversion. Yeah, yeah. So whatever he does, there's the ability to make it appear to be this sudden overnight spiritual change in him having been invested with this role in the church. Yeah, absolutely. And I suspect there are points, as his career as Archbishop plays out, that give him opportunities to kind of study some of the things that might have been useful to his training as a priest, had he actually been trained as one, that give him a sense of how an Archbishop of Canterbury should be presenting himself, or could be presenting himself in the context of the way things develop. Yeah. And to some extent, he's had practice of doing that on

Henry's behalf. And in the role of Archbishop of Canterbury, he's now able to do that on his behalf. He is the senior churchman. And yes, there's dispute around, you know, who's his ultimate boss. but he's now sort of slightly one stage removed from being in Henry's service to doing this for himself. So he has had practice at delivering that role, but he's being removed from under Henry's thumb a little bit. Yep. And there are people he takes with him who are very well placed to advise him in terms of, I suppose, the religious side of what he's taking on. And the sense in which it is now, perhaps they would argue, it was now incumbent on him to defend God rather than defend the kick. Yeah, he seems like one of those people who's just annoyingly gives the appearance, at least, of being very good at everything.

Like day one, he just walks into a job and he knows what he's doing, or at least he's very good at giving the impression, and he's very confident in himself and everything else. And I guess the first moment of crisis really comes with the constitutions of Carrondon. So could you just tell us a little bit about what those are and what they're designed to do? So Henry, as we've said, has been very keen on the whole idea of restoring royal authority. from essentially going back and claiming that he is restoring the authority of his grandfather, Henry I, almost pretending that the reign of King Stephen didn't happen. And he's been doing that in the way in which he interacts with his lay subject, with barons, with knights, with anybody who might turn up in a royal court, he's been extending the reach of royal courts.

And he starts to think about how he can extend his reach in relation to the church. and he has actually very quickly, there have started to be little flashpoints between Henry and Beckett in that kind of first year or so of Beckett being Archbishop of Canterbury. And it culminates in a royal request to the bishops that they will observe

the ancient customs of the realm. Whatever they may be. Whatever they may be, exactly, but chiming very much with what he said previously about going back to the customs of his grandfather Henry I first. And I think you're quite right, There's a fine line there between saying you're going back to some kind of precedent and actually

knowing what that is, and actually deliberately keeping those bounds blurred. And when Henry first demands this, he has a response led by Beckett, which the bishops then follow Beckett in giving, that they would observe the ancient customs of the realm, but they could only do so, quote, saving their order, essentially meaning that yes, they would follow the king's law, but only where it didn't conflict with the law of the church, canon law. And Henry takes that sort of commitment and takes it to the Council of Clarendon, where the constitutions of Clarend are drawn up in 1164. He gets a verbal promise from Beckett and the bishops, and he then basically turns around

and said, right, we're going to write down what these ancient customs are, send someone out of the room, essentially, and back they come with a document with these sort of 16 clauses written. down. And the sense we get from that is that Beckett and the bishops refuse to set their seals, so refuse to set their mark of authentication to that document, but nonetheless there is a sense that they agree to them, at least in the first instance. And this is about Henry extending his reach into the church courts. So one of the key things there is that what Henry really wants is that if somebody is accused of a crime that would normally be tried in the King's Court, so probably one of the major crimes, murder, arson, rape, things like that. That if you were a layman, you would be tried in the King's Court and you would be subject to the full penalties of the King's Law, which wouldn't be pleasant.

If you were able to claim that you were a churchman, you would be able to divert your case into the Church Court. where the penalties would be a lot less severe. And Henry feels that this is something that's being abused. And what he tries to do with the constitutions of Clarendon is to say, well, if somebody is dragged off into the church court for the, and potentially is getting a lesser sentence, if they're convicted, then they should be then handed over to the king's court. And he's doing all sorts of other things around that to try to extend the reach of royal authority. And while he's doing so, he's saying, okay, if churchman wished to leave the kingdom, then they have to have the king's permission. And he's trying to limit, perhaps he's trying to shut the

stable door a bit after the horse was bolted, but he's trying to limit the way in which churchmen can appeal to the Pope and find a way of getting around the King's will that way by getting the Pope to overturn things or say that it's uncanonical or something like that. It feels like we can see all of Beckett's diplomatic experience and ability coming to bear here in the ways that he's saying, yes, but not quite. And we. sort of think it's okay, but we can't quite approve it. He's not quite saying no to Henry, but he's saying no. Yeah, absolutely that. He's saying, I see what you're doing here. I don't think you can get away with this. And of course, in orderly, Beckett is the best placed

person to know what the king is trying to do here and what the problems are, because these are all the sorts of things that he might well have been pushing for if he was solely Chancellor. And actually, because he's resigned the chancellorship by this point, because he's one of the first things he does as Archbishop. But he still knows what the Chancellor's role is and what the Chancellor would be doing and who the Chancellor would be directing. So he has a pretty clear idea what the King is trying to do here. But with his new role, he also kind of knows why this is a real problem. Yeah, and I slightly imagine Henry, you know, presenting all of this stuff, really excited that he's about to get control over the church. And just looking at Beckett to give him the nod.

and then he's kind of, oh, it's not going very well. And how does this culminate then in Beckett being brought to a trial in front of Henry? Well, I mean, Henry is already annoyed with Beckett because residing the chancellorship, whilst it probably seemed like a good idea to Beckett in terms of not tried to serve two masters, it certainly wasn't what Henry wanted. And we've talked about Henry as a man who wants to get his way, who is used to getting his way. and has immediately had someone go against him. I think things have been building between that point and the Constituents of Clarendon

to the point where Henry is incandesantly angry with Beckett, and Royal Anger is not a thing that you trifle with in this period. So Henry starts finding reasons to make life difficult for Beckett, and this is perhaps where some of the things that Beckett has done as Chancellor can potentially come back to bite him. And certainly as Archbishop, he has been, you know, reactivating claims to particular estates and services that previously had passed to barons. He's been revoking leases of archipiscopal lands and things like that. He's been generally putting his stamp on being Archbishop.

So Henry calls in some of these things. You know, he, a baron called John Marshall has been caught up in all of this, particularly in the things to do with reactivating claims to estates. A charge is levied against Beckett that he denied. John Marshall Justice. Beckett is brought to what's basically a trial in October 1164 in Northampton. Though that charge by John Marshall fizzles out, Henry then throws at him a charge of embezzling royal revenues when he's been chancellor. Beckett can at that point see which way the wind is blowing. He finds various ways to say that he'd been called to answer one charge, not the other one, but equally he very quickly makes himself scarce from the Council of Northampton and basically.

flees. I get the impression that, you know, Henry is saying you embezzled lots of funds as Lord Chancellor and Beckett is kind of saying, but when I became Archbishop, you pardon me for anything that I'd done in my officer-chancellor. And that that is simply going to wind Henry up more and more and more, you know, he's already annoyed and now you're throwing his own actions back in his face. That's not kind of thing a king would enjoy. Yeah, absolutely. And he's doing it really quite theatrically, presenting himself very much as the Archbishop of Canterbury in the way that he conducts himself at those councils as well. So, yeah. I can just imagine Henry getting redder and redder and more and more annoyed as Beckett just stands there completely calm.

Yeah. Was Thomas in real danger at Northampton because he ends up fleeing? Was he genuinely in fear of his life? Yeah, I mean, I think it's quite possible he's in danger of arrest at that point. And from that point, you know, how hard would it be for Henry to orchestrate his removal as Archbishop and essentially his disappearance into a royal prison, or at least into some sort of sanction that didn't bring him back to the folds of leading the church, is he in danger of his life or that's harder to tell? I mean, you know, the later writers might like us to think that. Certainly he doesn't feel that it's safe for him to stay at Northampton.

And actually, he doesn't feel that it's safe for him to stay in England either. He's already been talking to people on the continent, and this is the point where he decides that really he would be better at the other side of the channel and at the court of the French king. Yeah. And how is he received when he gets to France? Because presumably, you know, the King of France, not a great fan of the King of England. This looks like a weapon falling into your lap. This is welcome news for Louis Ith in a lot of ways. He can welcome Beckett to his court in France, and indeed he does so. It also means actually because the Pope is in the Kingdom of France at the time

that he's welcomed by the Pope as well. Where are we were 1164, so there are already tensions between Henry II and Louis the 7th. It can play very well to Louis' own efforts. to build up his royal authority in France and in relation to France's borders. And so probably from Thomas's point of view, not an accident that he ends up at the court of Henry's big rival who has an axe to grind. It seems like he very deliberately goes there. He knows what he's doing. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, Archbishop's Canterbury have gone into exile before. They've usually found themselves in northern France at a place called Saint-Bartown, but here is Beckett very quickly at the French court in Suasson,

meeting the French king and arrangements being made for where he will spend his time for however long he's out of England. And how long does he end up out of England? And in a broad sweep, how does that period of exile play out? What is Beckett doing? So he's in exile for a period of around six years. That's almost exactly six years. If you look at the dates when he flees from Northampton and when he then leaves the French court to return to England in 1170. As I say, he's welcomed at the French court at Soissons. He's welcomed the papal court in exile in the French city of Sons and he then retires to the

Cistercian Abbey at Pontigny which is actually in the Duchy of Burgundy so outside the bounds of the French kingdom but is one of the earliest Cistercian monasteries and so very much I suppose bound up with the early Cistercian ideals of being far from the concourse of men

and being a sort of austere and difficult lifestyle and Beckett and some of his household go there not all of them interestingly yeah and that feels like that could well be a deliberate move again from Beckett to associate himself with that Cistercian removal from politics and that very austere lifestyle to give the impression that this is what I'm doing, this is what I'm about in opposition to the worldly King of England

kind of thing. All feels very stage managed. Yeah, absolutely. And will be used by Beckett's successes as Archbishop later on in that kind of way as well from time to time. Yeah, and he develops a bit of a habit of every time Henry and Louis have a peace conference, you know, Beckett will turn up at the last minute and just throw a massive spanner in the works, cause a ruck and cause the peace talks to break down. He seems to be very good at making himself a nuisance during this period. Yeah, and there seems to be a whole series of these failed conferences in sort of 1167, 1168, 1169, building up to 1170. Beckett, of course, doesn't always stay at Pontigny. He moves from Pontigny to Sons at a point where, I mean, Henry eventually starts trying to make it hot for Beckett,

Pontineenia and starts threatening the Cistercian orders if they don't get rid of him from this Abbey, then he will start essentially penalising the order in England, which perhaps is, I suppose, the danger of if you go into exile with an international religious order is that they can be hit in different ways. And what does it mean for Henry back in England to have his Archbishop of Canterbury, the most senior churchman in his realm, out of the kingdom in exile, causing political trouble for him? That's a good question. I mean, in some ways it means that he can get on with things in England, but he doesn't have that senior churchman in place with the things that that senior churchman could do. So one of the things that Henry is very keen to do, and actually probably has been

keen to do since the least of the time when Beckett became Archbishop, is to have his eldest son, so-named Henry, crowned as sort of associate king, following a model that the French kings have used of crowning the heir apparent. Henry wants to do this, but he doesn't have the Archbishop of Canterbury there to do it, and he can't get anybody to say that the Archbishop of York should do it instead. So that's one immediate problem that it throws up. And I guess the other thing is the place that Beckett can then occupy in the whole web of relations between Henry, between the court of the Kingdom of France between the papal court. And sometimes that can be to Henry's advantage

because he can play off particularly Pope Alexander III with the threat or the implied threat that if Alexander gives too much support to Beckett, then Henry might consider supporting the imperial anti-Pope. So it certainly means that Beckett has a place in that kind of web of international relations at the time. Yeah, particularly as a fly in the oint, repeatedly it seems. And I guess for Henry as well, it means the delay, if not the destruction of a lot of his plans.

He put Beckett there to give him control of the church and he won't do that and can't do it while he's in exile. He wants to have his son crown for political purposes to shore up his dynasty and he can't do that because Beckett's not there. And there's also the stigma that would go with having the most senior religious figure in your country, not in your country and not able to set foot in your country. Absolutely. with the threat that that person also poses, because in when is it, 1166, Alexander III makes Beckett papal legate for England, which gives Beckett potential authority to start unleashing church sanctions against communities and people within England. Now, Alexander does try and keep a sort of

controlling hand on that, and at times he more or less suspends Beckett's legation. But equally, that is there. And of course, it could be reactivated. And with that, there is the potential of Beckett excommunicating people around Henry, which he does, and the threat, at least, that one day he might turn his fire on Henry himself. And I guess so we're teetering on the brink of something here that Henry's youngest son, John, will come back to, you know, 30 years down the line when he does have a full-on breach with the church and the Pope is keen to depose the king. You know, Henry must have been aware that that was a possibility, even if he didn't quite want to push it over the brink like John did eventually.

And I think in Henry's time, the threat of those sanctions carries more weight than it did later on. Some of the sanctions came to be almost overused, so that where John could go, okay, I'll try and ride this out, Henry was much more wary of that. Yeah. And so why are there efforts to resolve this breach? I guess I can see the reason why Henry would want it resolved. It's a blockage in a lot of what he wants to do. Why would the King of France and the Pope begin to want to see a reconciliation between Henry and Beckett, given that particularly Louis, has a huge weapon that he can deploy against Henry? Yep. There is also, though, the sense that both actually Louis and Alexander

begin to get a bit tired of this. Certainly something that comes up in the peace conferences is the sense that we are almost there several times, and then either Henry or Beckett, often Beckett, finds a way to step away from this. because Henry won't do something very specific, like give the kiss of peace or something. And there is a sense of frustration in that. I guess there is also the question of what you do with your exile. And if Alexander, say, as Pope, which is to be expanding papal authority and have his man in England, clearly his man isn't in England. So that could factor in there. For Louis, I think that's less of a factor. And I think that's perhaps harder to explain

why Louis might be pushing more towards a settlement. It strikes me that Beckett maybe becomes an annoyance to Louis as well, not least because Louis does have reason to want to make a reasonable peace with Henry, because Henry is a huge landowner in Louis' territories, and Henry is therefore a potential threat to Louis. So the more Louis harbours an enemy, almost the more reason he gives Henry to come after him. So it's whether it reaches a point where all of these peace conferences are being ruined by Beckett,

and actually Louis wants the peace as much as anybody, else does to secure himself. And so Beckett is now becoming a problem for Louis as much as he is for Henry. Yeah, and a number of these peace conferences take place effectively on the Norman border. And the border between Henry's lands in Normandy and Louise's in France is something that is a live issue separately throughout this period, but also one that they're looking at various solutions, the young king's marriage is bound up with an effort to resolve them. But they're not finding a solution, but then Beckett is on the periphery of a number of these discussions. Yeah. So how are they eventually brought together? How do we reach a situation in which Henry agrees to let Beckett return to England?

Yeah. Well, as I say, we've had a number of these sort of peace conferences where there was almost a solution, but then, you know, Henry prevaricated by, wouldn't give the kiss of peace. Beckett would throw in that phrase again, saving our order or saving our honour or something like that. equally then Henry tries to force the issue by deciding that actually he will have his son crowned as Associate King in 1170 and it is that that brings everybody back to the table because it's at that point that Henry is basically launching open season for the sorts of sanctions that the church could throw at him and I suppose you can sort of find some way around that by saying okay I will let Beckett back but I do want the coronation of my son son to be recognised or to be carried out again. And from Beckett's point of view, you know,

this does give an opportunity to be going back to Canterbury to actually exercising the authoritative of the Archbishop in England. Whether he is aware of how easy that or difficult that will be is another question, but he's at least prepared to be persuaded to make that settlement, which takes place at Fretterval in 1170. It's an interesting thought and also actually with Pope Alexander the third's input to some extent, you know, Alexander has gone back to Rome at this point. He is in a stronger position. His natural instinct is to try and find middle ways, I think, and to kind of drive a settlement and a solution that the two kings will buy into, but that Alexander will then be able to add his sanction to as well. Yeah, and I get a sense

that there might be a way in which this is stage managed between Henry and Louis to kind of force this issue because Henry has his son crowned by the Archbishop of York, which is naturally going to outrage Thomas as Archbishop of Canterbury. So we're still kind of in the area where Canterbury and York are scrapping it out for seniority and it's sort of edging towards Canterbury, but this is going to make them look bad. But Louis is able to say, hang on, you didn't have my daughter crowned alongside her husband. That's wrong, you should do it again. At the same time that Thomas is saying, hang on, I should have done that. Why don't I do it again? And Henry is able to say, well, how about we just knock this all on the head? You come back, crown them together.

I wonder how much Louis and Henry were actually working together to craft this situation that allowed them to drive Thomas to a resolution. It's an interesting thought. And also actually, with Pope Alexander the third's input, to some extent, you know, Alexander has gone back to Rome at this point. He is in a stronger position. His natural instinct is to try and find middle ways, I think, and to kind of drive a settlement and a solution that the two kings will buy into, but that Alexander will then be able to add his sanction to as well. Yeah.

So, sort of Beckett has lost all of the reasons or all of the benefit that he was to anybody else beyond Henry, and it's almost like it's over now. The game's up. Something's got to give, you're going to have to go back to England. And I guess we're going to leave it with Beckett

arriving back in England, but he will travel back to England. On the basis of this deal, he's going to re-crown Henry the Young King alongside his wife, and he's going to be the, Archbishop of Canterbury in England working with alongside Henry again. Was this a deal that was ever going to work? I mean, with hindsight, it's very difficult to see how it could do. I suppose

like many a deal like this, it works if the protagonists are actually buying into it and are prepared to work together. The question is whether the antagonism that's built up is actually too much for either man to overcome it. It's very clear, very quickly, I think, that, Beckett doesn't really trust Henry or Henry's followers. Henry Agerna actually offers for Beckett to travel with the Royal Court after the settlement at Frettaval. Beckett says he'd rather not do that and goes back to the Kingdom of France there. So there's immediately a sign of a lack of trust and it's never really rebuilt. Yeah, that must go both ways though, because Beckett lands in England. The first thing he does is evade the bishops that are waiting to welcome him, go to Canterbury and excommunicate a whole

bunch of people, which can't have been the agreement that Henry thought they'd reached. And he's already sent word of those excommunications ahead of him as he set sail. So kind of one of those where Alexander III has kind of revived Beckett's legatine powers, and Beckett has decided this would be an excellent opportunity to use them against the people who crowned the young king. I mean, the historian Frank Barlow is rather cutting about this. I came across this phrase the other day. He said that the Archbishop had not the mind to win the peace.

but he is pointing to that kind of sense that, you know, there are things that Beckett could do here that would be more placatory than fire off excommunications at a set of bishops. He actually now needs to be thinking about working with. I mean, we're leaving figures here with Louis and Henry perhaps feeling like they've quite cleverly resolved an issue. Henry feeling like he might be able to get things back on track again. Thomas clearly seeming like he's not going to go along with what. the others think that they've agreed. He's still determined to be the fly in the ointment and to cause trouble in a different way. It doesn't seem like a recipe for happy ending. It doesn't seem like a

recipe for happy ending. We certainly got one party to whatever agreement has been made who seems to be heading back to England fully intent on settling scores. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Paul, to talk us through all of that. It's been fascinating to try and pick apart this really complex relationship between these two men who were maybe colleagues, maybe friends, maybe rivals to some extent. It's been fascinating to see how all of that played out and ultimately in our next episode we'll culminate in a moment that is going to shock Christendom. Shock Christendom. Absolutely send ripples across the Christian world. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you, Matt, as well. It's been great to be here and I've really enjoyed talking about it today.

It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much, Paul. In the next episode in this special series, Eleanor and I will join forces. It's going to be like crossing the streams of the Ghostbusters proton packs to explore the deafening crescendo to this crisis. As Henry says something, some men understand something, and there's a killing in the cathedral. Join us in episode three as we dissect the most famous murder of an Archbishop of Canterbury. It's a moment that genuinely shook the Christian world. There are new episodes of Gone Medieval every Tuesday and Friday, so please do you. do join us next time for more from the greatest millennium in human history.

Don't forget also to subscribe or follow us wherever you get your podcasts, drop us a review and tell all of your friends and family that you've gone medieval. You can also listen to us on Spotify, where you'll find our entire back catalogue. Anyway, I'd better let you go. I've been Matt Lewis, and we've just gone medieval with history hit.