Gone Medieval - Medieval Beauty Standards with Kate Lister

Episode Date: August 5, 2025

How did the 14th-century Black Death influenced fashion trends? And were medieval bald men considered 'hot' because their hair burned off due to their masculinity?From clear skin and youthful appearance to the controversial make-up practices of the period Dr. Eleanor Janega and Dr. Kate Lister explore this fascinating, ever-changing concept.MOREReal Medieval Women with Philippa Gregoryhttps://open.spotify.com/episode/2bGP4HAgsUgVkazs2DkdywGone Medieval is presented by Dr. Eleanor Janega. It was edited by Tom Delargy and Amy Haddow, the producer is Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff.All music used is courtesy of Epidemic Sounds.Gone Medieval is a History Hit podcast.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener survey here: https://uk.surveymonkey.com/r/6FFT7MK Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From long-loss Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr. Eleanor Jarniger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life only on history hit. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand-new release every week exploring everything from the ancient world,

to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, I'm Dr. Eleanorianica and welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research from the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to popes, to the Crusades. we delve into the rebellions, plots, and murders that tell us who we really were. And how we got here.

It's easy to think that there's some kind of natural standard of beauty that humans all hold and have always held. This is understandable because when we are thinking about the past and what people must have looked like, a lot of times what we are thinking about are movies that take place in the past. So when we imagine, say, Eleanor of Aquitaine in the past, we get images of noted babe Catherine Hepburn, or ex-model Miloovich as Joan of Arc, or maybe even the divine Kate Blanchett as the legendary maid Marian. Our historical fiction is full of the most beautiful women it is possible to cast, which makes perfect sense. But the thing is medieval Europeans had vastly different ideas. of what exactly was hot,

to the point that when I share images of beautiful women from actual medieval manuscripts online, I almost always immediately get asked, why is she pregnant? And balding. I was allowed out of the Gone Medieval Dungeon to stop by our sister podcast betwixt the sheets to chat with my wonderful friend

and inimitable colleague, Dr. Kate Lister, all about medieval beauty standards. As per usual, because it's me and Kate, the language can get a little saucy. So you might want to have a listen before deciding whether younger listeners are ready to learn all about the wonderful world of medieval beauty. We are here to talk about medieval beauty standards. Oh, there's a one. Oh.

I think it's kind of annoying, though, when you talk about medieval beauty standards is it's kind of like... Yes. All right, I'm going to talk about medieval things because you can't stop me. Yep. No, you can't stop, won't stop. Nope. But fundamentally, these standards within Europe, and more particularly kind of in the Mediterranean literal, are pretty much ossified for a really long time. So, you know, yeah, I could be talking about, I don't know, France in the 1300s, but it's also kind of true of Morocco in like the 10th century, you know.

There are some consistent things. What I'm learning, I've done this little mini-series and doing little time-traveling, trips to different places is there are some constants. They're like, wherever you go, that was an attractive thing. Clear skin, I have yet to find anybody going, actually, we kind of want you to fuck it up a bit. That doesn't happen. No. Healthy, that's like a really big one with maybe a few detours.

Remember heroin chic in the 90s? Oh, yeah. Well, it's back, baby, because the 90s are back. No, no. Keep it away. No, I want my high-wasted jeans. But I was also thinking like not only there's some constants of like healthy, young, that's another one. Again, I have yet to find anyone that thinks as you get older and older you get more attractive.

That doesn't happen. But even if we just think about our lifetimes, how much beauty trends come and go, like in the 90s, right? And I was thinking, because I know it's going to come and talk to it, and I was making a mental list of beauty fads that have come and gone in our lifetime. Number one, concealer lips. I remember them. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And then with like the dark liner around. Yes. That showgirl's liner, girl, that show girl's liner. Super low-rise jeans. Girl, what a horrible time to live through my 20s. You had to shave to put those up. It was just, you know, I've emerged into the world. This is what, and they were like put these on.

Oh, by the way, your fly is like two inches long. I mean, just like it was kind of like a notion at that point. And the thong hanging out the back. So we don't do any. And like the height of sophistication on the red carpet was jeans and a nice top. Okay. Do you remember though at the same time the jeans under the dress thing? Oh my God.

Hideous. Oh no. Yeah. But like my, we could just for a while. But my point is, is like, look how much these things come and go within a few years. So even though things are constant when it comes to beauty standards, there must have been things coming in and things going out. Because the pretty evil period, as I've learned from you, is a thousand years of history. Absolutely. And so there are things that we, we don't necessarily know about what's going on

at certain periods of time. So like the early Middle Ages when we have fewer sources for them, because 1500 years is a really long time ago. And it's hard, it's hard to get sources for that. And also culturally, they just kind of don't write things down in terms of what descriptions are. So we don't know that much about what's going on in, say, the year six. because no one was like, hey, she is really hot and she looks like this. The thing that they'll do is they'll write down that someone is really beautiful. Yeah. And you're like helpful, thanks, you know, and that isn't really expanded upon.

And this is super common though, because even if you go back to, for example, the ancient Greeks and they're like, Helen of Troy, you're like, oh yeah, okay, the most beautiful woman on earth. And they're like, she's blonde. And that's fair. And you're like anything else, they're like, absolutely not. That's just that's all it takes, baby. And then, you know, even within that, when you're looking at classical women that are portrayed as beautiful, you know, again, like from things like the Trojan Wars, you'll have like Polysena. And they'll be like, oh, yeah, she's not too tall. And that's, yeah.

Yeah. And like, you know, it's not giving you much to work with, is it? There's absolutely nothing. So, you know, this isn't a particularly medieval thing. And so, you know, even when we are looking at ancient standards of beauty, we got to go look at, like, statues, right? You know, you need to go find, like, Aphrodite bathing and things like that. And, you know, these are pretty uniform. And, you know, many people saw those statues, right?

Those are things that they saw with their eyes because it wasn't like they were underground or something. So, you know, that must have persisted in some places. But what we definitely know about early medieval beauty standards is they're like, To be beautiful is kind of like to be righteous. I'm sensing that as developing as a theme, you know, this sort of pretty privilege, but on an epic scale of like if you're beautiful, then you're just a good person. And it's like the other things you have all this time like where this is a legitimate cause for philosophical debate. So people are like, why is it that the chick I really want to bang is also so holy and good? And they're like, well, it's because, it's because God created the world, right?

God created nature. And, you know, God created the Garden of Eden. He created everything that exists. And when we were still in the Garden of Eden, you know, we were close by God. We were just like, in his image, right? And, you know, then things went south. You know, Eve ate the pomegranate or the apple or whatever it is you want it to be. We got kicked out.

Bada bing, butaboo. But naturally. things are close to God because God made the physical world. So therefore, things that naturally are beautiful are close to God. And then that's how you kind of get spiritual perfection. That is some mental gymnastics, isn't it?

That is a hell of a way of saying, we always think that the people we want to shag are amazing. And they are. For a bit. I've never ever wanted to shag some man who was terrible. No. You learn that later. Yeah, put that on record.

That's always right. Right? That's what happens later and you realize, damn it, the pretty man did it again. Curses. The medieval people, now this is thrown a bit of a conundrum my way, because what I know from you and your work is that they didn't like pretty women very much. Okay, look, so you can be more than one thing, right? You can be massively horny and also angry about it.

Like since time in a memorial, men have been mad that chicks are, pretty. There we go. Right. And then it goes back to Eve in like these theological conceptions because like one of the things about Eve and pictures that you see of Eve, absolute stone cold batty. Right. Like just a dime piece like always, always upholding the beauty standards at the time because of course she does because she's in the Garden of Eden. And they have makeup counters. Yes. Just picking the lip gloss off of the trees. So it's a baby is like one of these things. of course she's a spiritual perfection at the time.

And then also this is, you know, the opportunity that you have to paint a hot naked chick. So like let us not, you know, forget that there are ways to just kind of like have some fun with this, right? So she is always going to be portrayed as like really, really beautiful. But she's also the vector for which sin came into the world. Yeah. You know, she's also the reason why we have death. She's, you know, she's the cause of original sin. So very particularly a hot chick did all this.

Yeah. You wouldn't have had a five doing this, would you? No, absolutely no Mids. It's just like, this is hot chick behavior. This is hot chick. Yeah, like, you know, all her friends are like, honestly, girl, work. You know, like, ooh, she's so dramatic. She is the drama, et cetera.

But, I mean, fundamentally, this also is linked to the fact that the beast. that the beauty then becomes sexual. Yeah. Because part of the fall of man isn't just that Adam and Eve realize they're naked, right? It's that they realize they're naked and they're turned on by it. Okay. So because, you know, like they just didn't know to be turned on before.

So like this being attracted, that's kind of like the next step. That's the issue, right? And you get this weird cognitive distance that arrives. It's not just the medieval period that you see. is that they want women to be beautiful, but not aware that they're beautiful because then that's bad. They want them to be sexually attractive, but not too much, and they can't flaunt that at any point. They need to be unbelievably beautiful, but also innocent. What we would now call the no-make-up makeup look, just completely natural, like long tresses of blonde hair, not made up.

I think a really good example of that is in the Canterbury Tales. when you've got, so you've got the Miller's tail and he describes this 18-year-old girl called Allison. They're all Allison. They're all, so many Allison to know. Like Chosen, pick another name. And she is kind of slutty. And she's like really heavily made up

and he really goes to town describing her like slow eyebrows and like her hair's pulled back and she's got like loads of pleats on her and stuff. And then there's the knight's tale where another girl is described. And she is described as, like, also very beautiful, but it's a very different type of beauty. It's not made up. It's just like, like, doves and bluebirds follow her around singing songs. And she literally skips through gardens singing, doesn't she?

Yeah, and I mean, this is what medieval people would tell you is true beauty. Okay. So it is 100% that you're just supposed to be beautiful. Just be beautiful. Just be. There is an ossified beauty archetype. Yeah. And by the way, if you don't live up to this, we think you're sinful and evil.

But I swear to God, girl, if you pluck your eyebrows. No, then you're a bad woman. Which also, I think it's really funny because the evil people are constantly talking about, like, chicks eyebrows and how hot their eyebrows are. And I remember it did, like, a few years ago. Do you remember when there was, like, the really, like, really heavy brows? There would be videos from men being like, no man has ever been attracted to eyebrows. I'm like, baby, actually, we got 100 years of history where men are like, oh. Oh, you see the eyebrows on that one.

Highbrow trends do come and go. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And definitely Allison in the Miller's tale, she got her eyebrows getting mentioned. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so eyebrows become this particular sight of worry for men, obviously. Because they're like, I go.

I hope that her arched, they have to be arched and hopefully black. Okay. You're supposed to be blonde with black eyebrows. You know, that thing. That thing that exists without makeup. Right. Yeah, absolutely. And so this, there's a particular story about this where there's a guy who he's very in love with his wife. And she was so beautiful and like wonderful, but she dies, you know, in the way that people do. So he pays this monk who can have ecstatic visions to like go check in on his wife in the afterlife and tell him how he's doing. So monk takes the money, has a static vision and comes back. It's like, yeah, your wife is in hell. And your wife is in hell and deem are gnawing at her eyebrows and at her hairline because you thought she was beautiful,

but actually she plucked her eyebrows and her hairline. And so now her ironic punishment in the afterlife is that demons gnaw, the places that she used to pluck. And it's like, so, but your wife kind of sucked, actually. I think you'll find it. But it's like not only is there this real pressure to have these specific eyebrows, but if you do anything about it, you're going to help. And it's because makeup or any kind of intervention is seen as a form of trickery.

Like to the point where there are laws on the books, like here in London, where if you find out that a sex worker that you frequented was using makeup, that's fraud and you can go ask for your money back. I mean, granted, you're going to be laughed out of the stews. Holy hell. Yes. Did anyone ever enforce that? I mean, good luck, right? But it's all. the books, right? So, like, in theory, that's in there. And so the idea is, like, well, this is false advertising. You're not really beautiful because to... So, what do you want me to come home and meet your mother? Jesus. Like, what do you mean? Like, it's, you're paying for a quick shag up against a world. I know. And it's just like,

oh my God, like, I'm sorry, like, were you writing love poetry to this woman? She does not care. Right? Like, this is a business woman. Thank you very much. But it's, it's, it's, what? And you don't know, six foot two either, but I know, mm-hmm. I mean, like, and to the point where, you know, when you have poor Allison in the Miller's tale, they're like, and she thinks she feels really hot. And I'm like, I mean, you're still kind of like literally wanking over her. Like really quite intensely. Yeah.

And so it's sort of like you are making her into a figure of fun, but you still think she's hot. Yes. But she's the wrong kind of hot. But don't we do that today? That's still a bind that women are in today. Point in case, Kardashians. I love to return to them again and again. Always.

But they occupy that same space of like they're judged for how they look, but they also influence how people look. We also hate them for what they do. and how they're made up an artificial, but they're also adored for it, and it becomes really weird and complex, and it's that same artifice that people in the medieval period got angry about.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Where the trouble here is that these people are aware. Yeah, and that's a big part of it, as you mentioned, it's like, you're not supposed, you know, to quote one direction, you don't know you're beautiful, right? Like, that's the thing that you're supposed to be doing is that you're just supposed to meet this standard. also be blithely unaware of all of society.

Am I really beautiful? Oh, wow. I didn't notice that I looked like every single statue in the church. Right. Like every painting I've ever seen. And also, no one's ever mentioned this to me, like in a society completely obsessed with the way that women look. And if you can be unsexual as well, that's a help.

Just going back against the counterfeitals, because Emily, the really beautiful one with the Bluebears tweeted, she wanted to be a virgin all the life. she wanted to be a priestess of someone or other, some virgin goddess. So like the idea as well that you're not even supposed to be sexual. You're just this beautiful Disney princess wandering around. Well, like we see this, for example, in the Pearl poem as well. So, you know, in the Pearl poem, the little girl dies and she's like two. And then her dad sees her in heaven and she's like a 16 year old haughty.

Uncomfortable. Yeah. And he's like, oh, isn't it great that she's so hot? And it's because, you know, she's kept the spiritual perfection because, she was a virgin and she died and she never did anything wrong. And so there's this idea that our souls when they go to heaven and indeed like when we rise from the grave on Judgment Day, our bodies are going to be at the height of their powers. Like we're going to be, we're going to be as good as we are. And so hilariously for women, this is like, yeah, 16. Like, you know, you're supposed to be a maiden,

which means like you've achieved sexual maturity, but you haven't had sex yet. And for men, it's middle age. Oh, for fuck, say. I know, right. So like, go look at, go look at any, you know, picture of the last judgment and everyone, all the little naked souls getting up out of their graves. It's a bunch of baddies and then like middle-aged dudes. Do you want to be 16 again? What an awful idea that is. Oh, my God. It's like, have you ever spoken to a 16-year-old girl also?

Never want to go through that nonsense again. Like, it is horrifying times. That is not judgment day shit. Let me be 16 in my swamp witch era. I mean, look, let me tell you also, like, as, you know, a noted elder, millennial, we definitely lived through that with like Britney Spears. For example, where it was like, look at her. And then they would like parade her around and be like, say you're a virgin, say it, do it.

It's like while they're like, and also take all your clothes off and please gyrate, you know, and it was like a really weird time to be alive where you're just like, huh, this thing of kind of simultaneously commodifying women who haven't had sex yet, but sexualizing them. So it's like they can't be sexual, but you're going to be sexual at them. You get creep all over them. Yeah, exactly. And then like every woman who like notices that this is happening, it's like your fault for noticing. You're just supposed to be blithely unaware.

So this is kind of why they have this link of if you're beautiful, you must be spiritually pure somehow because the ideal beauty is somehow unaware and innocent. What the fuck happens when you get older? You're only 16 for one year. That's all you get at being 16. You've got a long way to go. after that. Well, luckily, you'll be a mommy soon. And then all your worries are over.

And then you don't need to be attracted. That you don't need to be attracted because not your a mommy. It's not your mommy. And like, and this is kind of, although, you know, obviously there are cases where this doesn't happen. So, you know, very famously, Eleanor Vauquitaine is incredibly hot. And everyone is like, stupid sexy Eleanor of Aquitaine. And they're so angry about it because like she's like really, really hot and doesn't behave like

they want her to. behave. I don't know, there's constantly rumors swirling as a result. They're like, oh, she's shagging her uncle. You know, she's dead. And 200 years later, they're like, she was shagging Saladin. It's like, homie, how? Literally, how did that happen? You know, and, like, these are things that even the Victorians are repeating later. So there are women who continue to meet the beauty standard later. And when they enter the record, people are furious. They're like, no, you're not supposed to be doing that anymore because you're supposed to kind of like transcend. You're supposed to get into motherhood and then this is going to be like a moot point and you know then

people will say you were an excellent wife you were an excellent mother but still having said that it's like medieval literary tradition is absolutely full of people's really hot wives who are like cuckolding them or not wife of bath wife of bath is she hot and just actually has a very detailed description she's another alison yeah she's 40 all of 40 years old and oh my god oh my god oh my god Can you imagine? And she's got a gap between her tooth. I remember that. She is slightly red in the face.

Which is good. That's good? So what you want is you want white skin but rosy cheeks. And oftentimes in literary sources, it's referred to as a complexion of snow and roses. Oh, wow. Which is very. Okay. Okay.

Yeah. So she's got that. The gap tooth. I remember that she's got a gap between her teeth. I can't remember what her eyebrows were like. Is she a sexy figure? She talked about sex all the time. It's really difficult to say because she's sexualized. Yeah.

Certainly. And I think that it's very difficult to not then kind of like put her in sexy situations as a result. But she's kind of representing people's worry about widows, more particularly even though, you know, she's a wife at this point in her life. But this idea that, you know, older women are sexually aware of what they want, they're experienced and they have money. Right. So they can kind of pick and choose what they want to do. They can marry men for whatever reason they wish to or not. You know, so they then, you get into this kind of like limbo where there's a specific worry about widows where it's like, oh, these widows are out here being hot. And, you know, like they are out of control.

You know, they don't have fathers to shove them in one way or another or brothers. You know, like maybe your sons can be like, mom, knock it off. But, you know, they're just going to do what they do. So there is also this kind of like moral gray area that they fall into. Okay. All right. That's interesting. But not, they're not regarded as beautiful in the same way as.

No. I mean, because like to be young is to be beautiful within a lot of these things. I mean, if you look at the DeCamron, for example, there's just endless stories of cuckolding. It's just like that's all there is. And you know, also stories of like a really beautiful women who are kind of younger. So, you know, for example, you got the story of it's the. It's the king of Babylon, which is Egypt to, like, do not look. I can't explain it to you.

And she's really hot and is supposed to get married off to the king of the Algarve and gets set on a boat and like the boat shipwrecks. And then there's like a series of stories where every man who comes into contact with her is like, a woo-go, like, you know, talking on the floor. It becomes a cartoon wolf. And they like are all killing each other and kidnapping her. And then like the minute you show her a dick, she's like, oh, well, I guess this is fine. You know, and it's like, it's absolutely incredible, right?

And so she kind of gets passed like from hand to hand through like, I think eight different dudes. Wow. And then like eventually finds her way home to her father and makes it this great story about how she was actually the whole time. Like, do not worry, dad, virginity intact because I was hanging out at the nunnery of St. Crescent in the hole. Of course. She was, yeah, great, great little euphemism there. And, you know, like, we are Muslim, but, you know, these Christians safeguarded me in any way I can marry the Prince of the Algar. When he's like, you sure can. And this is the story of a woman who's kind of like in her teens to 20s.

And they're like, she maintains her beauty and her sexuality all throughout these subsequent changes of sexual partners. And to the point where she's like married off with all honors in the end. And it's kind of like a happily ever after. So what we learn is that there are these sort of conceits where it's like, oh, you're supposed to be holy in order to be beautiful. You've got to be a 16-year-old. You need to be a virgin in theory. In practice, if we're seeing what people actually do and what's going on with their lives, there's a lot more room for interpretation about where beauty lies and whether or not, you know, sexual women are indeed sexy. Because in this case, yes, absolutely. I feel like we should finish up by talking about men being attractive

because this conversation always focuses on women because they're the ones that have had the pressure put on them to look a certain way. But men feel the pressure too. What was a medieval male hottie? Oh, well, so the medieval male haughty as a general rule of thumb, a little bit muscular but a little bit of meat on the bones. You know, they go for like, ooh, there's food in the house. Right?

You know, like that's hot. So if you got like a little bit of a belly, that's, that's no problem. Do not worry about that. There is like a lot of like men kind of like exercising to exercise and like, you know, to maintain their figure. So it's like quite cute. Like there is do you even lift bro in the medieval period. But they're just like picking up big rocks.

Like it's a lot more like a strong man competition. It's very amazing. So that'll be like exercise regimens and things like that. The other big one is like being clean. Clean. Clean. That's a constant. Yeah.

everybody likes it when you're clean. So there's like rather a lot of that. You got to comb your hair, brush your teeth. Yeah, all of those things. Don't stink. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, there's rather a lot of that. And then dress is a big one.

Yeah. So one big difference, I think, between now and with medieval men is medieval men, is medieval men be showing it off, right? Like, it becomes a huge issue in the 14th century when the black death is going on, because a lot of men are like, look, if I'm going to die tomorrow, I'm wearing hose. Right? And they're like, and they got it out. Like, they're like wearing a super, super pointy shoes.

And the bishops in England are furious. And they're writing about this. And they're like, God is punishing us with the black death because these men are wearing tights. And like everything that we see has them like wearing tites. And then, but then there's kind of like this. The equivalent of women shouldn't wear makeup is you shouldn't go too crazy on the clothes. Okay. So like if your tites are party colored, so like they are green and purple or something like,

that. I mean, we're probably not purple. Only Kings can wear purple, but I don't know, green and red, right? Like, that is like, really pushing the butt. That's too much. And it's like, everyone agrees it's sexy, but it's like, gosh. I've noticed that there's a lot of discussion around men's legs. That's, that's one of the thing. You don't say that as much. It'd be a bit weird if you did say that. It's just a nice legs on a guy. Like, it wouldn't be like, you know, institutional behavior, but like, you just don't say that about men today. People would go, I mean, I suppose. But like, yeah, like, minimal men do not skip leg day. No, they're big thing about legs. Yeah, and because they're wearing tights and things, right? And so it's one of these things that's interesting with clothes theory, where it's kind of like, chicken and er the egg situation is like, dude, we find legs sexy and so men were wearing tights or were men, you know, like did the finding men's legs sexy come out of the wearing tights thing. Yeah.

So, and I mean then, especially in the later medieval period and into the early modern period, there are a codpiece on that. Yes. Yeah, that was a weird moment in fashion history, that one. You know? Remember the first time I saw a cod piece? I thought it would just be like a cup that, you know, rugby players wear. It's a full-arm penis.

You can hang things off that. Absolutely. And, you know, it goes to show that medieval people in early modern people are a lot less prudish than we are. They're just like, I know you're looking at it, so I'm going to make it look like that. That's what's going on, you know. And so there's a lot more comfort around the genital area. But then there are kind of, I guess, some surprising things that medieval people do. Like, bald men are kind of sexy.

For example, it's because they're very manly. They're very masculine. The idea is they are so hot and dry, which makes them very masculine that their hair is burnt off. So it's like a humorally, there's kind of like nothing wrong with being bald. Like unless you're bald because you're old. Like it's like a young bald guy thing. It's like, you know, if you've got the Jason Statham. Jason Statham.

Call me. If you want to sponsor this podcast. It's fine. It'll be fine. So, you know, like this is the thing that universally is kind of like agreed is pretty hot. But it's interestingly like scientific. You know now when like weirdo, evo psychologist will be like, well, we've always found exactly the same thing attractive about women, which is hourglasses. And I'm like, no, dude.

Like absolutely not. No, it was pear shapes for Europeans. Anyway, like they were like, well, scientifically. bald men are hot because of the humors. And it means basically exactly the same thing as eco-psychologist going off on one now. So, you know, like you can treat it with as much respect, right? So if you're a medieval person and you want a decent skincare routine, very important, still important to everybody today, cleanse, tone, moisturized, but you didn't have that so much if you're a medieval person. What would be your go-to routine? Well, we actually

have recipes and routines that are left to us from a couple of different sources. One of which is our girl, Hildegard von Bingen. I like her. She was a skincare girly. I love that for Hilda. Yeah, like she leaves us like toner recipes. She's like, girl, this is how you make barley water, which to me was always kind of just like a Mary Poppins, the musical reference. But it's like a toner thing. So you know, in the way where we'll use kind of like colloidal oatmeal now, like, in order to like moisturize. So you can do the same thing with barley. So she would be like, this is what you do, girl. Take the barley. boil it up, put the water on your skin, it'll soften it, and it will, you know, and this is something

that's really available to most women. I've seen barley skincare scrubs and things available in shop. Yeah, exactly. So that 100% existed at the time. We also have, like, if you have a little bit more money, a lot more skincare recipes that survive to us in the trotula. And so this is kind of like, you know, it starts out as an OBGYN manual and then people are like, and also makeup tips. You know, so this has lots and lots of different recipes for all sorts of things. How to treat sunburn, good moisturizers to use after you're out in the sun, the softer cleansers for your face because there is kind of some acknowledgement of the fact that your skin might get a little bit rough if you're just using sort of like the soap that you're using on the rest of your body. So they will be like, oh, you know, add rose petals, add honey.

There's rather a lot of adding honey to things in order to put it on your skin. There's also more extreme things. So, for example, there's rather a lot of stuff that is like, want to bleach your skin, bleach your skin tonight, queen, bleaching your skin. No. And it's like a big concern for medieval women because especially like within the Mediterranean and European context, pale skin is a really big beauty standard. They love pale skin. Everyone seems to have been absolutely nuts for that until like the 1950s. Oh yeah, absolutely. And essentially what it boils down to is that is a preference for rich ladies.

Yeah. Right? Because like if you're a peasant and you're out working in the field all the time, your skin's going to get messed up because they don't have SPF, right? And they know the sun will burn you and they're like, or whatever. So being tan is a sign that you were like some poor peasant who works outside, right? Whereas being very, very pale is a sign that you got the kind of money where you don't have a job outside. Yeah.

Right. So that's very attractive. And that's across the board. Like, you know, you see that as much in Arabic poetry. about beautiful women as you do French poetry about the same thing. So that as a result creates a demand in skincare routines for skin whitening products. Some of which look pretty horrible. Like you'll see examples in the trotchola where they're like, yeah, put some quicklime in there,

girl. And I'm like, do not put quick lime on your face. No. Right. So, but it does kind of show us how there are some things that would absolutely work in terms of skincare. And then there are some where it's just like you are so off-piece. right now. But it's to try to live up to this really difficult standard where, you know,

most people are outside all the time and they want to be pale. I think that this could be one of the periods in history where actually to be skint means that you'd probably have the better beauty products because you couldn't afford lie or whatever the hell it was that you had to put on your face. You'd probably be better off with some barley and something you found in a bush. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're bang on there where that stuff is kind of universally available. It's going to be more about whether or not you've got the time to do it. Because they're not the ones who are attempting to make blonde hair die. Right? You know, which, you know, exists. Absolutely. Like they figured out ways to bleach your hair and that kind of

a thing. But, you know, it's rough. What about smelling good? Because one of the persistent myths about folk from the Middle Ages, as you are well aware, is that they were all dirty and that they all stunk and no one had me teeth. Yeah. Well, uh, no. So 100% actually. Teeth is one of the big ones where medieval people probably had better teeth than we do now. Talk about teeth a lot. Yeah, they do. And it's like, one of the things we have to keep in mind is that they don't really have access to sugar in the way that we do now.

So most of our sugar is now coming from like sugar cane and stuff like that. And it certainly existed in medieval Europe, but it's coming to you in much smaller amounts. And it comes from very far away and it's mad expensive. So you're just not eating sugar in every single thing in the way that we are now, which is the stuff that makes your teeth go wild, right? And they brush their teeth. So they've got toothbrushes or they'll use kind of like little like licorice roots, things like that in order to like brush the stuff.

And to be fair, toothpaste didn't work until the 1950s. Until we invented fluorides, whatever you were brushing your teeth with, it's like, well, I hope you're having fun. Like it makes your best smell nice, but that's all it does. So honestly, if you compared the teeth of a medieval person, with a person in the 1930s. Probably the person in the medieval period is going to have better teeth

because they have fewer things that are going to mess their teeth up. What about being ugly then? We've spoken a lot about being beautiful. Ugly seems to be another one of those consistent things like disfigurement. They must have had a fair bit of disfigurement wandering around in the Middle Ages.

Oh yeah. You know, you have issues, for example, like with leprosy, for example. is fairly endemic and common across Europe at the time, which can be pretty disfiguring. You know, if you come down with any diseases where you might end up with like pock marks, we don't have smallpox or things like that yet. But, you know, if you've got like chicken pox or something like that, that can really mess you up. Or, you know, even if you just end up having acne, you know, and your skin gets scarred.

These are all things that are going to count against you. And certainly it is a specific thing. where ugliness will be associated with evil, right? Like if you're not hot, well, then you must be evil. And then that gives me a reason why I'm allowed to kind of exclude you from society. So we see this in particular with people who have leprosy because they will be like, well, they kind of were asking for it, right? So there is this way of talking about people with leprosy as though they brought it on themselves

because they were lustful, they were gluttonous, they are garrulous. They're just like shagging and fighting all the time. And that's how you end up with leprosy. So the idea is that they were sinful, which is why they've ended up ugly like this. And then that just seems mean. Yeah, it's really mean. And it just gives you carte blanche to just kind of be a bit of a dickhead to people who are having a really tough time. That's a cheap shot, medieval people.

I know. Look, I like them very much, but I didn't say they were perfect. They're not as bad as the Romans. They're hands down the maddest, most cruel. If something's not being killed, quite frankly, they're not having a good time. What about fat and thin in the mediation? period because that's something that fluctuates as well where like body shape fat ratio yeah so we want some fatness like a little bit of swish don't they yeah so like for the body standard for

women remains pretty much ossified and the thing that they are looking for is they want tiny little tits yeah the smallest boobs available right like the cameron talks about like hot chicks boobs and they're like they're small and hard like ivory yauza right that's what That's what they're looking for. But you want what they call a luscious little pot belly. I can do that. Yeah. So that's hot.

That's really hot. And then like junk in the trunk. You got to be packing heat back there. Okay. So we're looking for the pear shape. And that's what they want. So it's kind of like it wouldn't necessarily be like obese or anything, but they definitely want you to have flesh.

Pushing for the Pushing. Yeah. And again, this is one of these things where it's like that means that there's like, money. Yeah, it's weird how much beauty and still today. If you want to look hot like a Vogue model, you know, like the money. Yeah, exactly. And we change whatever it is we think is hot to be whatever is the most difficult or expensive thing to acquire. So you know, when everyone couldn't afford a Brazilian butt lift, the Kardashians have big old boots. And thank God for that, all right? And until quite recently, being overweight went from being something that only

rich people could have because they could afford the food to actually now it's a sign of not having enough money and not being able to eat right and go to the gym. I wonder what's going to happen with the dawning of Ozempic. What will happen now? Well, yeah, we're already seeing, I think, this backlash where we are getting like thinner and thinner women now again being posited as, you know, I know, I know, I know, but and again, we're doing the same thing now with the way that we talk about diet or the way that we talk about fat as many evil people do with beauty, right? Where we really associate fatness with like some kind of moral inferiority. Control.

Yeah. Oh, well, you lack self control and you're unable. Just go to gym. Oh, yeah, as though that has anything to do with how bodies work. And like all of the science tells you that that's absolute junk. Well, thank you for fixing that, Steve. Yeah. And it's just like, but we love to do it.

You know, there's something that our society just really enjoys to do. which is place a moral weight on what we consider attractive, as though what we consider attractive doesn't change. Yeah, that's so true. Fat shape. Yeah, when you look at our attitude with fat today, I think you can actually get your head around a lot of historical attitudes with this linking of moral worth with how you look. And what about race?

One of the interesting things to come out of historical research in the past 30 years or so is that historians suddenly went, did anyone check on the black? people. And then someone went, oh, fuck, no, we didn't. They're all here. Damn. Shit. Well, you know, a really great place to go see hot black people is one of my favorite paintings of all time, which is Hieronymus Bosch's The Garden of Earthly Delights. That is a scene that he paints. Yeah, it is, it really, really is. And you can see very many hot naked people, some of whom are black. And it's hilarious because they're just like, they look exactly the same, but they are black. I love that. Yeah. It's not true.

I'm being very flippant, but it's not true that people in the middle ages would have only thought that white people existed. They were much more multicultural and diverse than we give them credit for. Oh, God, yeah. And I mean, like especially places here like London, we know that there are lots of Africans around the shop. And honestly, it just makes us look like we suck here in Europe if you think that there aren't black people about. I'm like, dude, people wanted to come here. Like, you know, there's a lot of trade back and forth. People are moving around all the time.

And all you have to do is like sit down and read a medieval book and they'll be like, oh, and then this person went on a voyage to wherever. And they talk about it all the time in these really matter-of-fact ways. They talk about what the trade routes are. And people move along those routes just as much as goods do. So we know that 100% you're coming into contact with other races. You know, probably they will do some light racism at you if you are black, especially because there is such a premium put. on light skin, but we also know that they clearly think that these people are hot,

which is why they get included in stuff like the Garden of Earthly Delights, where they're like, I want to make a big hot fruit orgy scene. There's going to be birds, real birds, and like women, birds, and some of them are black, and they are also hot and sexy, and in my ideal garden orgy with giant berries, there will be black women as well, so there you go. So there might have been a sort of, it is still type of really, racism, but an eroticizing of people that weren't white. Yeah, I mean, 100%, like, I'm not like, please do not say, don't let anyone say that I said

Hieronymus Bosch as perfect racial politics. But, you know, certainly he posits these people as people who could be attractive and certainly like on par. But of course, also, you know, the Garden of Earthly Delights exist as in theory an admonishment. Like, don't you do it. He does also paint like frogs eating people's bottoms. Yeah, exactly. It's like, you know, you paint the big, you paint big garden. in order you to be like, and you shouldn't like this. Don't threaten me with a good... Which is how you get away with it, right?

You gotta be like, oh no, it's very bad, though. Stop looking at it. This is an awful scene. Oh, wow, I can't believe. Wow, gotcha. I bet you think this is sexy, you pervert. Thanks so much to Kate Lister once again for having me. And thank you for listening to Gone Medieval from History Hit. If you were interested in the world of medieval women, why not check out our past episodes on medieval women writers or medieval sex.

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