Gone Medieval - Movie Knight: Medieval world on film

Episode Date: August 27, 2024

It’s summer, so let’s kick back, give our brains a break and indulge in a little fantasy. Hollywood, like us, ADORES the medieval period and has made some stonking entertainment based on this period. Our esteemed historian hosts assess the most fun, the most accurate and the most absurd films set in medieval times and choose their favourite guilty pleasures.Starring Katherine Hepburn as Eleanor of Aquitaine, a rabble-rousing Chaucer and a cockney King Arthur. We also hear what medieval people would have made of Monty Python and the Holy Grail.Gone Medieval is presented by Matt Lewis and Dr. Eleanor Janega. The editor is Ella Blaxill, the senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff.Gone Medieval is a History Hit podcast.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original TV documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Sign up HERE for 50% off your first 3 months using code ‘MEDIEVAL’: https://historyhit.com/subscriptionYou can take part in our listener survey here: https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/6FFT7MK Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From long-loss Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr. Eleanor Jarniger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life only on history hit. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand-new release every week exploring everything from the ancient world,

to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, I'm Matt Lewis. And I'm Dr. Eleanor Yonaga. Welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit. The podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We've got the most intriguing mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and latest groundbreaking research from the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to popes to the crusades. We dealt into the rebellions, plots and murder. to find the stories big and small that tell us how we got here.

And who we really were. It's summer and while we're planning more gone medieval episodes revealing the most exciting new discoveries about the medieval world, today we have something a little different. We normally are absolute sticklers for historical accuracy. However, please allow us to kick back a little and indulge in a little fantasy. Hollywood, like us, adores the medieval period. and has made some stonking entertainment based on it.

It's time for we're sailing and chill with Gone Medieval. Today, we've pitched up to the gorgeous Spotify studios here in London to battle mono A mono for our favorite guilty film pleasures. We're going to be throwing the net wide, debating who's our favorite medieval character, immortalized uncelluloid. Which films obviously had their history books open during filming? And which ones didn't? And in the second half, we're taking a deep.

dive into the best films about the one and only King Arthur. As always, please let us know what your thoughts are. Are we getting it right or completely wrong? You can leave comments on the episode in Spotify. So, where shall we start? What don't we start with guilty pleasures? Let's just get these off our chest. Oh, yes, please. First off, what is your guilty medieval pleasure film? Okay, I've got a weird one here, which is Ridley Scott's The Last Duel, which came out in 2021.

This is kind of a controversial one because in the first place, people will say, Eleanor, why are you having fun watching The Last Duel? And to that, I say, shut up. That's what I'm doing. But the reason why The Last Duel is for me a guilty pleasure is it hits the thing that usually annoys me about medieval history movies, which is that the ones that look like they're incredibly historically accurate, like they're purporting to give you a super accurate picture of the past and then they just aren't. But I really like it. it anyway because I think it's gorgeously acted and I love the costumes and I think it's a really interesting story about how different people can experience things in different ways and it gets enough medieval things just right that I do like it so I don't know Ridley Scott why it's a really great piece of filmmaking I guess whether or not it's necessarily medieval does it feel like one of those that comes so close you wonder why they don't just go that little extra yard. Exactly. And it's that niggling bit that really gets to me. So wonderful things about it. For those who haven't seen it, it's really interesting. It is about a theoretical rape trial in the

medieval period and terrible vibes. Why would I like that? It's a great question. But it gives it from sort of three different points of view. So there's the woman in question who was wronged, her husband, and the man who did the wronging. And there are all these little different details where the same thing happens, but you just get somebody else's viewpoint. So it's kind of like Rochamon in that way. And it's got all these things that I love. Like there's a rowdy banquet scene where they are reading out Andreas Capulonis's Dei Amore or the art of courtly love. You know, being like flirty and sexy. And I think that's really fun because I don't think that enough medieval movies show that that that happens. It's quite an interesting one in that it is then having debates about stuff that

we do think that people thought about in the Middle Ages. What is a good lord? What does courtly love looked like. People wrote books about this kind of thing. You can imagine that they were debating those things. Absolutely. And even down to the process of the actual trial where there's a lot of worry about whether or not the woman who says she's been wronged becomes impregnated because the understanding of conception at the time is what we call the two seed theory. So there is an idea that when men ejaculate during intercourse, so do women internally. And those two things mixed together. Both men and women have semen, and that's how you get a baby. So there is real emphasis put on, well, if you become pregnant as a result of what you say as a sexual assault, it can't be.

Because you enjoyed it. Because you enjoyed it. So there's a lot of tension there. And all of those things are correct and really interesting. And I love seeing it. And then there will be something that takes me completely out of it. Like there's a theoretical, well, one person thinks that he's flirting. And then there's the woman. And they're at like a banquet. And they're looking at this beautiful kind of spread that's out in front of them. There's all these little nibbly bits of food, and she's holding a little China plate. And it drives me up a wall. Like, I was just like, no, no plates.

Why? I like, just give her a little piece of bread. Come on. Like, China? No. China is very, very much a early modern thing in Europe. Occasionally a vase makes it way over from China, but you're not going to have dainty little plates at a castle in France.

It's just not going to happen. That's not how things go. It's that stuff that drives me absolutely round the bed. And how do they do with things like combat? So with the combat, I think it's quite funny because trial by combat. I mean, you know more about this than I do, but it's one of those things that comes up in literary context. Like you see it in Arthurianna, you see people write about it. It's not something that you actually see in everyday life.

And so unfortunately, because the entire thing hinges on a big trial by combat in the end, And my worry then is it's going to lead audiences into thinking, oh, yeah, that's just how medieval people are. They just get out a sword, the drop of a hat, you know. That's how you sort out your differences. Yeah. You know, it happened. There are examples, particularly Richard the second reign. He has one trial by combat that happens.

He has famously the one between Henry Bolingbrook and Thomas Mowbray that he abandons just before it begins. So it kind of did happen. But as the medieval period goes on, people sort of frown on that a little bit more and more as a way to settle a dispute. Absolutely. You know, it's very much tied into the earlier medieval period and when almost all things that you see brought to court are either, you know, just a really boring legal thing over property or someone has been mortally wounded, killed this sort of a thing. And so then swords at dawn makes sense. So it's something that I really enjoy. I think it's a really beautiful film. And the only reason I guess I feel guilty about it is that it's almost too good. That's my problem is that when things look too good, and people might think that it's accurate. And I'm like, no, just turn your brain off, baby. Just go with it. Yeah, it looks like too much effort has been put in for it not to be right.

Exactly. My favourite thing I ever found out about trial things is divorced by combat. Yes. I love that. Complete aside. Yeah, and the idea there is that the man has to stand in a little hole in the ground. He's got stones to throw at the woman and the woman's got sticks to hit him with. You know what, if that's what it takes, I think that's stared up.

Family court programs a bit more interesting today. I would what? Absolutely. You know, this is one of those things. People always say, oh, in the past, and in the early modern period as well, oh, people would attend executions and stuff as a form of fun. Listen, if you were having divorced by combat, your girl would be there. I would be down there immediately watching that stuff. So what can I say? What can I say? I guess I ought to disclose my guilty pleasure. Okay, go on. And usually, I can see your face when I tell you this. A knight's tail. Oh, come on. Everybody loves a knight's tail. That's all right, then. So it's not such a guilty pleasure.

Oh, come on. I think this is actually the universal medievalist answer. Everybody loves a nice tale. Everybody loves my boy Heath Ledger. For those who haven't been blessed by watching it, can you give us a brief synopsis? Does such a person exist? That's the question. And I mean, it's a really classic boy's own tale, isn't it? This small boy is taken away from his father. He's sent off to be a squire to a knight to try and make a better life for himself. The knight is on the tournament circuit, quite anachronistic, jousting. not the tournament circuit that would really have existed in whatever period of the time. This is meant to be. Question mark when it's set. Yeah, it could be almost anywhere. And he will be quite good as a squire, but quite frustrated that his boss is a bit of a drinker and not very reliable. His boss ends up dying and they want money.

So they're thinking, you know, how do we carry on making money without the night? Well, hang on. If you wear a big suit of armour and a helmet, no one can see who you are. So he jumps on the back of a horse. It turns out to be quite good jousting. crafts this identity for himself as this knight from far off Gelderland,

and then does a wonderful job on the tournament circuit, makes himself incredibly famous, comes up against Count Ademar, who provides the ultimate evil rivalry, and Count Ademar finds out his dirty little secret, and how does he use it against him? And he falls in love, obviously, along the way, because boys own tail, he can't not have some love interest going on as well. But even Jocelyn, who is the love interest, but she's not just this kind of passive, woman. She has a bit of an attitude as well. So it's all about, you know, what does she make of finding

out that he's a commoner? Can he survive in this world of rarefied knighthood as just a scrappy boy off the streets? I love it. Name a man better with the sword than I. In the practice ring. You know of noble bird. Oh, so we lie. How did the nobles become noble in the first place, huh? They took it at the tip of a sword. I struggle with watching a knight's tale since Heath Ledger died, though. It still upsets me. RIP to a king, you know. But I absolutely love it.

I guess I think of it as my guilty pleasure because there is almost zero history in there. It's such a jumble of everything. The black prince is in it, but so is jousting in the lists. And just so much stuff that doesn't fit together in the timelines of itself. and then you throw in the modern, I mean, anything with the soundtrack that includes Queen and David Bowie and the boys are back in town, I'm sold. I love it. Before I even know what it is.

And for me, those modern twists they put in, particularly with the dance, so Golden Years Dancing, now that for me, I just love that scene. It has nothing to do with history. There is no medieval dancing in there. There's no medieval music in there. The costumes, they don't even particularly make a massive effort to make the costumes vaguely convincing. So why do I love it?

The vibes are impeccable. This is the thing that I always say about a knight's tale is that none of the history is correct, but the feeling is. You know, this is really the way that medieval people would have thought about jousting and how, for them, this is the sport. It is absolutely the number one thing that you want to do. It's the party of the year. Everyone is super socially invested in it. And also, I think one of the things that it does really nicely as a movie is it's kind of like medieval works of fiction art. And people don't care.

They're like, yeah, I'm Sir Lancelot's here. And guess what? So is St. Michael. Yeah, sure, why not? And they're friends and they're hanging out and they're going to go on a hunt. You know, they don't care. They just throw things in. They don't particularly care what a timeline is.

They just mix it up and see what happens. And so it's got that real great medieval way of thinking about the world to it. Yeah. And I think, you know, centuries before there was Deadpool and Wolverine. There was Lancelot and St. Michael. I do think it's right that in the medieval mind, the timeline was never all of that clear. And I'm sure we'll get on to this later when we talk about King Arthur,

but King Arthur famously always looks like a high medieval bunch of knights wearing plate armour whilst existing in a post-Roman world. So the medieval mind didn't care too much to mix those things up and mess around with those kind of things. So I don't feel like we should be too precious about it now either. And to some extent there is something really, really medieval about just mashing all of that stuff together. Take the best bit from that century and the best bit from there and a bit of dirt from there and some idea of a night from there and just smash it all together, put a soundtrack on it,

and you've got a film. Medieval writers would do that. And you know what? What a film you get. I have nothing but good things to say about it. I think that it is so incredibly fun. And I do think medieval people would like it. I think that if you could show medieval people this movie, they'd be like, this is excellent. And I absolutely love it. And you're exactly right. What is an You know, it would be an anachronism to think that medieval people cared about anachronisms, right? You know, they're not going to say, oh, I'm really mad the Black Princess here. They'll be like, oh, I've heard of him, but that's a guy. There's been a name recognition in there.

And it's James Puerfoy, I mean. Oh, yeah. And this is the thing that the cast is great. As you say, the soundtrack is great. I think the fact that it looks kind of like an Am Jam production in terms of the costumes is also great because it just reminds me of being, you know, a teenager. Yeah. And I think it manages to be funny. and cool and entertaining and slightly moving.

And it just does all of those things so well that you almost don't care that this is claiming to be some kind of historical drama or period film. It doesn't matter. It's just a great film. Absolutely. You know, it's kind of like the equivalent of when you see a Shakespeare production that's been brought into the modern era.

Yeah, okay, great. You know, because it's a timeless story and it just works and you can put it in any sort of situation. I think that's exactly what's happening here. This is something that can appeal to all audiences. It happens to be in a medieval setting. And I think it appeals to the medieval popular imagination, such as it is. And I do wonder whether the one thing that a medieval person might have an issue with is this idea that knighthood was for anybody.

It has that element of the sharp novels about it, doesn't this guy off the battlefield who does good, gets promoted and so nobody really cares about his background except for the people who's space he's invading by getting promoted. there is a sense in the medieval world that knighthood is something special, and it's not necessarily the case that you can be a nobody and become a knight. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, to be a knight has nothing to do with one's prowess. I mean, you could be a knight and never set foot on the battlefield, completely within the realm of possibility. And it's definitely not something that any peasant who happens to be good with a sword can take up.

But again, that's part of the suspension of disbelief here. And I don't think it's necessarily a problem, because it's the opposite of the last duel. I don't think that anybody's watching a Knight's Tale and going, oh, man, I'm going to answer my high school GCSEs with this. I've got all the medieval period down. Yeah. And also, if you're watching it spotting historical inaccuracies, you're missing the point

of the film altogether. It's almost the opposite of the last jewel in that it makes no effort to say this is what the medieval world was like. And that's better. I honestly believe this. You know, every single medieval movie that just says, never mind, we're just going for it. I'm like, yes, baby. Go all the way.

This is what I want to see. Yeah. Just get both feet in. Go hard. Before we leave a knight's tail, the next thing we wanted to talk about was favorite medieval characters portrayed in a film. Oh. And while we're on a knight's tale, I am going to give a big shout out to someone I've managed

not to mention so far. Me old mucker, Jeff Chaucer, in a knight's tale. Shows up naked, steals the show. Incredible. Paul Bettany gives an absolutely immaculate before. as this guy who is riddled with gambling problems, but utterly believes that one day he will be a gifted writer and you get this whole, you know, the people who he owes money,

so I will eviscerate you in fiction for all eternity. It's just lines like, it's so perfect. And he ends up being Heath Ledger's hype man effectively, and he does it all so well that he, in the film, and for the audience as well, he is the warm-up act for the main event of the jousting, and I think he just does it absolutely perfectly. Yes, behold, the hard place. Like a wind from Gildland he sweeps by, blown far from his homeland in search of glory and honor.

We walk in the garden of his turbulence. Yeah! I just think that this is one of the performances of a lifetime. You watch this and you want it to be you. You know, you want to be playing Chaucer because it's so much fun. And I also think that, again, of course this isn't something that actually happened with Chaucer, but the characterization is real, that kind of braggadocio, that real involvement with an interest in ordinary people and an understanding of it. These are all the kind of hallmarks of Chaucer in general. And they managed to bring that out so nicely that, again, this isn't historically accurate, but I think it gets the vibe right. And I think it's a really nice way to tackle someone who, you know, we think of Chaucer as the father of the English language and the father of English poetry and all of these kind of things that make him sound grandiose. You know, he probably looks like Father Christmas. He's probably scratching his chin and looking disapproving at everything that we're saying about him right now. He was a young man at one point. The stuff that he writes speaks of a man who's seen the world and knows the world and knows real people and he wants to tell their stories. He's not some stuffy guy sat in a corner of a cloister writing how he thinks the world should be.

He writes how the world is. Absolutely. And he had such a way of understanding the common sense of humor. It is one of those things where because we throw around these grand titles and we call him the father of the English language, as you said. And that's all true. But it tends to make us think of him as a really stuffy guy. But all you have to do is read the Canterbury Tales. It is smut.

I say that, you know, in a positive way. For me, if something smut, I'm like, oh, which means it's excellent. It's all the right smut. And I love it. It is. Come on, where else are you going to see something about two people shagging in a pear tree? It's a beautiful piece of literature. And I absolutely love it.

And I think that all of that really comes out in a knight's tale when you see their chaucer. Yeah, rather than someone who is considered the father of the English language. The chaucer in a knight's tale is the person that I could believe wrote the can to be tales. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that is such a nice thing to do because it brings in the audience. It lets us all feel as though we kind of have a piece of Chaucer and this is something for us. And it brings people into saying, well, maybe I can read Chaucer. Maybe I could pick this up.

And instead of being intimidated and thinking, oh gosh, well, this is in Middle English, this is very important literature underline. You know, if you see something like this and the guy shows up on screen naked for the first time, then it makes you realize that this is something a little bit light, a little bit easy, and anyone can enjoy it. Yeah. And I do like that for a film that isn't trying to give that particular message or to be historically accurate or anything like that, they manage to humanize someone who is quite often put up on a pedestal. That for me is perfect. Absolutely. I think that it speaks volumes about what a great movie a Night's Tale is. I think this is why all medievalists love it. We feel like we are finally seeing what exists in our own imaginations on the screen. Yeah. I feel like I don't need to hide anymore. I don't need to hide my shame.

And Night's Tale Support Group, yeah. Watching a Knight's Tale on my iPad under the bed sheets. Okay, I'm going to hand over now. So who would you say is your favorite historical character portrayed on screen? So my answer for my favorite character in a medieval movie is an absolute cop-out because it's a bit of nominative determination. And I've picked Eleanor of Aquitaine in The Lion in Winter. I can't help it in the first place, obviously. I'm going to say this. But for those who don't know, the line in winter is a really fantastic movie,

and it centers on the idea that Henry II and his wife, Eleanor Vauquitaine, are getting together at their castle in Chinole in France to have a big Christmas court. And this is after their marriage has deteriorated massively. Eleanor has been under house arrest in a castle. And they're finally getting the band back together. They're going to have the whole family in town. they're going to try to settle their various differences, which, spoiler alert, they will not. And Eleanor is someone who, she definitely looms over the medieval period.

She has this fantastic life. She's the only woman to ever be Queen of France and Queen of England as well. And she lives, you know, for 80 years and sees so much and does so much that she is a character. You feel like it would be hard to do justice to, and yet they manage to. And I think it does a really nice job. If you follow Eleanor through the film, you never. quite know that there's moments of vulnerability, there's moments of aggression, there's moments of what feels like heartfelt regret and all of those kinds of, but you never know which one of

those things she means in any given moment. And I think that's in the performance at Catherine Hepburn, she cries, but is she crying because she's upset or is she crying because that's what works on the men who happen to be around her at the timing? You never feel like you've quite caught up with her. Exactly. And I think that that is so wonderful because it's one of those things that Eleanor is kind of famous for. For example, when she's meeting with the Pope, when she's still married to Louis, and Louis's been excommunicated, and he's been a very naughty boy, and she goes in there and has a big cry, and she's, oh, we're all just very upset over here because I haven't got pregnant yet, and that's what's going on, Pope, and then makes everyone so uncomfortable, they forgive

Louis. This is something that she actually does in real life, and it's brought into fiction here so well because you can't necessarily trust her, but also you can't write off everything that she's doing. So I think that it's such an incredibly complex and nuanced performance, especially for a film made at the time. Yeah. For a film in the late 1960s, it gives so much power to the woman at the center of that story that she often feels like the one who is playing all of the men around her. They all think they have their grand schemes and they're all so clever. but it's Eleanor who is playing them all like puppets. And that's how I like to think about her.

I'm so bad. I'm such a partisan. I'm the worst. It's not even that I dislike Henry, as you and I've spoken about multiple times. I really think that he's actually underrated in terms of English kings in a lot of ways. But I just have such a soft spot for her.

I don't like to say that the reason that women are interesting is when they're like boss babes who control the world, but you can't say she's not compelling. Right. And, I mean, she gets some killer lines as well. Oh, absolutely incredible. And delivered with just such a sneer a lot of the time. You know, this makes me terrified of Catherine Hapbron.

It's just like, how do you know all of this, you know? I particularly like the scene when Richard draws a knife on John, and John's like, oh, he's got a knife, he's got a knife. He's all knife. Of course he has a knife. He always has a knife. We all have knives. It's 1183 and we're barbarians. It's just stuff like that.

It just makes me laugh every time. And they're delivered so perfectly. It's deadpan when it needs to be. It's got that raw emotion when it needs to. She just delivers every line in that film absolutely perfectly. This is really one of those films and one of those performances that has absolutely stood the test of time. You know, sometimes you have Oscar winners come and go and people say, oh, yeah, well, there

was an Oscar for that and you're like, the what? And this is absolutely not one of those things. You can throw the line in winter on right now and everyone will stop one. they're doing and start watching it because it is just so impeccably well-acted and so incredibly entertaining. You cannot look away from Catherine Hathburn. The last bit we wanted to talk about before we get into our King Arthur Marathon is what we think is perhaps the most accurate medieval film in our opinion. It's only our opinion. Tell us we're wrong, please in the comments. Tell us what is your most accurate film. And this is going to look a little bit like we've

planned it because we're segueing all the way through here. But, I went for a lion in winter. Just because it feels to me, while you're watching all of that dialogue and all of those exchanges, and for me, there's a realism in the exchanges between that family. It's like a microcosm of their several decades of relation at one Christmas court at Sheenon, and it's absolutely believable in those exchanges and the plotting and the scheming and the back and the forth and all the way around. And add to that that almost every performance in it is perfect. You've got Peter O'Tall alongside Catherine Hepburn, you know,

either one of those could have stolen the show but for the other one. And then you've got Anthony Hopkins in there as Richard, this absolute dead pan stick up his backside, straight-necks, fighting man. And then you've got Geoffrey, the chroniclers call him the son of perdition. And you get that sense of him from that film too, that he's the one who is playing everybody as well. Probably gets it from his mum. But all of the time he's also like, why didn't neither of my parents like me?

And then you get John who is like the sniveling little, you don't like John in the film and that's the point. John isn't likable. It's not meant to be liked. But in terms of the accuracy watching it too, I just enjoy, because it's also contained at Shinon Castle really.

So you're barreling around this castle from room to room, from argument to argument, from family dynamic to political crisis. It just feels like a real castle to me. There's dozens of people everywhere. The courtyard is packed with buildings. There is clatter in the early hours of the morning.

People are working away. You go to the horse. and all of the people are in the hall with this big central fire. And it just feels, right, there seems to me to have been some thought to gone into the costumes. Henry doesn't wear anything that looks like a king's robes. And we know he didn't. He hated dressing like that. So there is so much of that that they get right.

I don't think it quite falls into that last dual problem area of trying too hard to be too real. And then any little mistake looks wrong. I believe that I'm in Sheenon-Castel in 1183. And I think one of the things that's really wonderful about this is it's written. in that way. So very specifically, if you go and look up the script for the play, there's a big note at the beginning that says, look, this never happened. You know, the Christmas court at Chinon never happened, but that's not the point. The point of it is bringing out the family dynamic of some incredibly important people. And I actually think it's really brilliant to hold it in

Chinon as well, because it points out, come on, the Angeman Empire, these people have castles everywhere. They're constantly moving about. They're as likely to be in France as they are in England. This is what they do. And I think it's such a nice touch. So whether or not they were actually there, quote unquote, is not something that I particularly care about. What I care about is saying these are people with a lot of land.

These are people with a lot of power. These are people who move about. And that is a really big deal. Yeah. And there's a lot of talk in the film sometimes, particularly between Eleanor and Alice, about what do you see when you see Henry? Do you see Henry?

Do you see a man? Or do you see land, an acreage and all of those kinds of things? And there is that real sense of, particularly for a king, that there are these king's two bodies. There is his physical being and there is his political body too. And how do you ever reconcile those two things? And it's almost the Alice is interested in the physical body of Henry. Eleanor is interested in the political Henry, except that the twist is, she kind of wants him back a little bit. So I think all of that as well, you know, the medieval mind might recognize that idea of kind of who are we?

What are we? What is a king? Absolutely. And I think that it is really interesting here to kind of bring on to the scene, you know, another potential girlfriend now. Was Henry ever involved with her? Probably not. He certainly had other girlfriends. You know, let us not forget Rosamund. But to bring this out and say, this is something that sort of happens. You know, kings are these complex individuals who can kind of get away with anything they want and they get up to sexual misconduct. And it's just something that everyone kind of has to maneuver around. I think that that's really well done and very deftly here.

And the whole thing with Alice is, you know, Richard will fail to marry Alice on the basis that she had an affair with his dad and maybe even had a child with his dad. So that was a current rumor around the time. And it just plays with all of those little things. You know, it makes it fact, but it was a current rumor. It could have been. And it plays that whole idea of did Ellen asleep with Henry's father. He's cheating on her. Did she do something that he finds his reviled?

There's so much going on. And I love it. It's 1968, so it's an old film now, but it absolutely holds up, I think. It's absolute tour to force. I cannot fault it, and I recommend that everyone stop what they're doing. And well, okay, no, keep listening to this. But after this, go watch The Lion in Winter. Do it, do it.

So I've got another, I love the name of the rose. I love the name of the rose. I love the book, the name of the rose, and I like the movie, the name of the rose, for the same reason in terms of what I would describe as accuracy. And this is not surprising. You know, Umberto Echo famously a medievalist himself. So when he writes the name of the rose, he's really attempting to get across what life in a medieval monastery is like.

And there's this great murder mystery at the heart of it all. But it is very specifically a medieval one. Now, there's anachronisms in it, you know, at some times, people will say, oh, well, you know, it was this many seconds. and there's no idea of what a second is. But those are always a little bit wink, wink, nudge, nudge, you know. But I like the way that everything is segmented up in terms of the monastic day. So things happen at terse and they happen at Compline and they happen at Matins.

And you have the kind of edifice of what the medieval world is supposed to be, these nods to holiness, these nods to what it's like to, quote unquote, give up the world and become a monk. But then there's what's actually happening. and there's sex and lies and betrayal and murder and all these excellent things. Plus, heretical debates happening all the time, and you know I love a heritage. So I'm going to have to confess, I haven't read the book, and it's a long time since I watched the film. Could you give us a quick review, mainly for my benefit, quick review of the plot, please? Yes, absolutely.

So it is being written by a young monk who had been apprenticed to an older one, and they are arriving at a monastery. where there's going to be a big papal delegation show up. Now, this is in the time of Pope. John, one of the Avignon popes, he's not very popular, and essentially they're attempting to facilitate an agreement between the emperor and the Pope. So everyone is gathering at a monastery in order to have a big theological debate,

but then a murder happens. Murder most foul. You know, a monk is found dead at the bottom of a tower, and then other murders keep happening. And so the Franciscan monk who's been brought in to be one of the mediators in this big debate, he's also like a detective type. You know, he's a bit of a medieval Sherlock Holmes. He has the ability to reason.

He's studied with Roger Bacon. You know, these are the sort of things that get brought up over and over again. So he can say, oh, you know, obviously there was a horse that came this way because the snow has been knocked off the trees and blah, blah, blah, blah. And there's a lot of flexing about these sorts of things. So he gets called in to solve the murders, but they just keep happening. And they all center on a central library where only some librarians can enter because inside are very, very rare books that might contain things like demonologies. But also, very specifically, it all hinges on the idea of whether or not Christ laughs. which sounds boring, but it's incredibly interesting.

Plus, in it you've got My Man Christian Slater, not just for Robin Hood Prince of the News. You know, he's an all-around medieval actor, you know, he can do it all. And that is like a really fun thing to see. It's, you know, very 80s. We absolutely love to see it. But also, of course, Sean Connery is our main detective guy. And he's Sean Connering it up. Absolutely fantastic stuff.

I see a very Scottish mother. He's a Scottish shrunk, although he's supposed to be English, which is quite funny. It's just incredibly well-crafted in its way of seeing the monastic world, and also the ways that medieval people did think and write about papal intrigue or spiritual intrigue. And the fact that these are people who take it incredibly seriously and they are willing to kill for their ideas about religion. And those things that, you know, does Christ laugh are the kind of minutiae that, really did cause debates. And those were the little things that did preoccupy medieval minds. Absolutely. You know, this is what people like Thomas Aquinas are sitting around thinking about 24-7, right? And that's what you're supposed to be doing in monasteries. The entire reason that

you take yourself out of the world and into the monastery is so that you can, in theory, contemplate these things and have ongoing debates with monks and come to new ways of understanding religion. And this is deathly serious for them. And it really does, especially if you were at a particularly important monastery like this is supposed to be. It's an anonymous monastery, so I can't name it for you. These are the sort of things that they would be doing and pushing along papal ideas or what the church is doing. But at the same time, one of the things that's really interesting about it that they talk about all the time is here's a big rich library and a big scriptorium. They're also saying, oh, down there in the world, they're getting very rich in cities. And so,

Soon, monks are not going to need to be making manuscripts at all. And this is true. This is one of these things that's happening at the time we start seeing artists' workshops that are making rich and beautiful books for wealthy people. And there's this real tension about taking knowledge out of the monastery and putting it into the hands of just the wealthy average person down in the world below. So it's got all these wonderful tensions that really accurately reflect the way that certainly monks thought about the world. Yeah, I definitely need to re-watch the film, but I do remember watching it and really, really

enjoying it and being quite surprised that you could base a film in a medieval monastery that literally just looks at how monk structure their day, basically, and the kind of little weird conversations that they have. And okay, you throw in a bit of a murder mystery and all that kind of thing, but it managed to do a compelling job of being in a monastery. Absolutely. And so I think that you have enough medieval window dressing. But having said that, if you're trying to convince someone who's not really sore, on the idea of a medieval movie to watch this, you just get them with a murder mystery bit.

It's a nice little plot, and it does absolutely keep you guessing and on the edge of your seat. And we have to say, I guess, that if you really want historical accuracy and riveting stories, then we have literally hundreds of episodes of our Gone Medieval Back Catalogue to explore,

including on Eleanor of Aquitaine and Medieval Monastery Life. So stick with us after the break. Matt and I are diving into the magical world of the mythical King Arthur. That guy just cannot stay off the silver screen. Well, now that we're back, Matt, we're getting ready to talk about

possibly the most portrayed, theoretically medieval person in any movie who is the completely fictional King Arthur. But someone who would have obsessed medieval people, too. They were absolutely hooked on Arthurian legends and all of those kinds of things. So we're kind of in a medieval world here, talking about the productions of King Arthurian.

King Arthur on the film because they would have been talking about what's the new book that's out on King Arthur. What's the new story that we're getting this year? It's like the Marvel comics, isn't it? There's cinematic universe everywhere in which all of these nights are up to all sorts of stuff. So it seems like a really natural thing to want to make into films. And it's been done, like you said, loads of times, maybe sometimes better than others. I mean, absolutely. And I think you're bang on here. This is one of those characters that medieval people return to time in time again, and they change the way the plot works. They will bring in a particular night, and now he's the biggest one. You know, for a while, Sir Lancelot is like the Superman, as it were,

of the world. But then, oh, he goes out of fashion and it becomes Gawain. And before that, it was like Sir Key. So, you know, these things change all the time. But what stays the same is there's a rotating cast of characters, and that's what we get in our own films. But I want to start off. I'm talking about what I think is one of the most important King Arthur films. I can't even say it. You can't say with a straight face, I'm not sure how much I believe you. What is the greatest Arthurian film ever made, Eleanor? Listen to me. I like Guy Ritchie's King Arthur, Legend of the Sword.

And you know why? Because David Beckham's in it. But also, it answers the incredibly important question. What if King Arthur was a geyser? We're going to take the castle and we're going on in the front door. George, I need you to go to Londonium. I gathered the lads. Chef's Kiss, baby.

Oh, King Arthur, he's cutting it up. He's got an East End accent somehow. He was raised in a brothel. There are these nods to the fact that actually, in theory, King Arthur would live in the early medieval period or the Dark Ages. So they live in Lundinium. You know, they go to Tintagel. There are all these wild things.

And it's got the pace of a Guy Ritchie movie. It's pretending like it's. Arthuriana Lockstock, and I am here for it. If you watched it, you would recognize a Guy Ritchie film immediately. It looks and feels exactly like a Guy Ritchie film. And I quite like that. You know, I like Guy Ritchie's films. I like his Sherlock Holmes films and all those kind of silly things you probably shouldn't like.

And I mean, this film, I think, has so much going on. Charlie Hunnam with his shirt off for a start. And thank God for that. One for the ladies. So I enjoy this. There is so much anachronism going on. And as we mentioned, and that's maybe not such a problem in a lot. an Arthur film because that existed in the medieval world in retellings of Arthur. But I like the

idea, as you said, they're in Lundinium, but they're also fighting off the Vikings. That's right. And they're also wearing plate armour from like the high medieval period or something like that. It does kind of stretch that a little bit and it gets to the point you're thinking, hang on, is a spaceship about to land? Do you know what? I like that you're going with the plate armor being the bridge too far and not King Arthur's sheep's been coated. He went to the 70s and got it and then came back. All right? So this is King Arthur with a time machine.

I think it's so bonkers and silly and fun. I'm not telling that this is great cinema, okay? Like, this is not the line in winter. But you know what? You can eat some popcorn while you watch this. And I also enjoy the fact that King Arthur has been taught Kung Fu by Chinese George. That's right. That's absolutely right.

That's what's been missing from Arthurian legend. You know what? There's all these little things that feel like they're for me because I love a kung fu movie and I'm like, finally. Finally, there is King Arthur kickboxing. These are all the little things that really make a movie night for me. Yeah, I think my biggest criticism might be it felt a bit more like Guy Rich was making a Robin Hood film. It feels a bit more like a Robin Hood humble background, deprived, driven into exile, all that kind of stuff. It had more of a Robin Hood vibe than an Arthur vibe sometimes. Yeah, you know, and it's heisty. You know, because of all the heists he pulled, which, you know, fine. I think there is something to be said for it. You get the Arthur that you get, depending on who's writing it. And baby, this is a guy Ritchie movie now. This is what's up. And you get the magic and the monsters, which is very medieval stories, a bit beowulfy.

There is a lot going on there that we might look at it and think this is a daft thing to put in a medieval film, but actually is directly lifted from medieval fictional stories. And frankly, I want to see a dragon. So I can forgive any number of sins if. there is going to be a dragon. So I'm like a medieval person in that respect. I just want to see, you know, somebody breathe fire. Why not? I'm going to take us to 2004 and a very, very different film. It's just called King Arthur, doesn't give too much away. But this is the Clive Owen, King Arthur with Kira Knightley in it and some really, really cool casting and performances around

Clive Owen. And this is much more the post-Roman. Arthur is this war leader, a Roman who is galvanizing people against the incoming picks from north of the border, but actually are they as bad as he's always thought they were kind of thing. So this for me plays much more with the idea of a historical Arthur. If a historical Arthur ever existed, this is what we might think he's most likely to be. So this is almost stepping away from all of the Arthurian myth and legend and trying to be a bit more of a historical author. Which is why I find this one really interesting. It's nice to see someone take a crack at it. It's nice to see someone take a crack at it. It's nice to see someone who clearly has an understanding of what Arthuriana is when it was supposed to

have happened. Because, yeah, you know, as you've already mentioned, when we see medieval people talk about King Arthur, they're like, put him in play Arthur, yeah, whatever, he's a knight, fine. But it is supposed to be long ago and far away. You know, it's supposed to be a tale about back in time, and so it is supposed to be taking place in the early medieval period. And I do like that structure that it gets here of saying, well, what does the early, medieval period look like. What I don't like about it is I'm like, ah, does he have to be a Roman? You know, I'm much more team like picked. What can I say? I'm a little bit more of the home team. Yeah. I like that it plays with that idea of the removal of any kind of structure of power in England when

the Romans go and what is going to fill that void, what gets sucked into that vacuum. Somebody has to have power. Who's that going to be? Yeah, absolutely. And that is kind of the fundamental question of the time. And it is also what medieval stories about Arthur are, with, which is this idea that there is still a sort of Christian bastion within England at the time. And it shows that there is a medieval understanding of the fact that there's a kind of Roman presence that is Christianized and then you get that taken away from it. And so King Arthur becomes this beacon. And the clive Owen, King Arthur really understands that. It is this, well, what does it mean to be Christian? What does it mean to be Roman? How do you play off against other forces in that era?

And so I think that is a really nice thing. And it is a nice historical accuracy, if you can have historical accuracy about a completely fictional character. I think it works. I think it's a nice one. And the next one I wanted to mention was a film that I think if genuine medieval Arthurian myth and legend was turned into a film, it might look something like First Night. Ah, I love First Night. And this might fall into guilty pleasure because it's one of those films I think if you watched it as a medieval historical film, it would drive you to madness, I think. There is so much wrong with it if you watch it as historical film, but if you watch it as a retelling of a medieval Arthurian myth, I think it absolutely works. And it focuses on the Lancelot story. You've got Arthur and obviously you've got Sean Connery, so I get to do my Scottish King Arthur. And Richard Gere's Lancelot and that dynamic between them. And it takes you right back to that idea of they all look like knights from the high medieval period, but we're clearly in the dark ages, in the early medieval period where there is this question still of what does power look like?

like who's going to have power and all of those kind of things. Arthur arrives as this perfect king almost, and what breaks him? Well, it's one of his own knights and his wife. It's love that breaks the political perfection of Camelot. And then it's about Lancelot, once he realizes he's done that, can he get some kind of redemption? I think that is such medieval Arthurian myth.

Absolutely. And this is why I have such a soft spot for this film because I'm in it for the courtly love, baby. I want forbidden love. I want a shag so good, you bring down an entire reigning king. This is what the people want to see. Tales of Lust and Redemption. This is the sort of thing that medieval people would be expecting to see in their Arthiriana.

And I think it's really nice to have that brought to the fore because there was a kind of movement in the Victorian period to sanitize the Lancelot story and to take away the underlying sexiness. that medieval people really enjoyed, and they use it in various ways, sometimes as a morality tale, sometimes just as an allegory for sexuality in general. But I thought it was so cool to be able to see something like that on screen. And it's really realistic if what we're talking about is what is medieval Arthoriana like. Like I say, I genuinely think if you got someone from the 13th century and said, make us an Arthur film, I genuinely think it would look something like First Night. Absolutely, yeah.

They're going to be like, oh, a bodice ripper. Okay, I want to talk about possibly one of my favorite movies of all time, which is Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Oh, yes, yes. Life of Brian is one of my favorite films as well, but we can't talk about biblical stuff. Get it on the ancients. Tristan, Tristan, Life of Brian, Monty Python, the Holy Grail.

It's so good, and it's so funny, and no, it's not historically accurate, but I tell you what, my absolute favorite scene is I like the peasants in the muck. He comes up and he announces that he's King Arthur, and they're like, I didn't vote for you. Oh, how'd you do? How'd you do, good lady? I'm Arthur, king of the Britons. Whose castle is that? King of the who?

The Britons. Who are the Britons? Well, we all are. We are all Britons. And I am your king. No, we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective. You're a fooling of yourself.

We're living in a dictatorship. A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes... Oh, there you go. Bringing class into it again. That's what it's all about. I can't... To me, this is comedy. This is cinema.

It's so incredibly funny. And I also think it is actually a nice tongue-in-cheek kind of nod to what's going on in the dark age. It's like, oh, you're the king. Cool. Says who? Yeah, right? How does that happen? What does that mean for me?

And I think it is really kind of nice to sort of portray some medieval people as having an understanding of their place in the world and what the possibilities are. I think that's really cute and fun. Because I am a five-year-old, my favorite scene is definitely. the Black Knight. Yes. It's but a flesh wound. It's just a scratch.

It's so good. I could just go on like this forever. The scene where they rescue the bridegroom from the wedding, I still have a tendency to refer to cleavage as huge tracks of land as a result of this. You know, the hits just keep the killer bunny rabbit. But I will say the one thing that is kind of the bane of my existence in this movie is the witch scene because, you know, there aren't witch trials in the medieval period because medieval people don't believe in witches because they're like, that's not real. Sorry, home boy. And it is

something that I have to like bring up all the time when I'm like, it's not medieval people, it's early modern people. Does that make that scene not funny? No, it does not. Because I think what it does do is a good job of playing with that kind of weird logic that you have to go through to get to the fact that someone is a witch. They burn. So they must be made of wood. They float because they're made of wood, which means they're like a duck. So if they weigh the same as a duck, they're a witch and we burn them. What? I mean, and also, come on, just the line, she turned me into a newt. What makes you think she is a witch?

Well, she turned me into a newt. A newt. Got better. I got better. I got better. Like, I mean, classics, absolutely nothing but good things to say about Monty Python and the Holy Grail. And I would also have to add that your mother was hamster and your father smells of elderberries is an insult for the ages. All time.

Your mother was a hamster. your father smelt of elderberries. I still use that. And also, I definitely say, I told him that we already got one, like whenever. I've already got something from the store and, you know, my partners don't need to pick it up. I'm throwing that one in there. It's a genuinely hilarious film. Although from an Arthurian point of view, the one thing I think it does actually really well, in a vaguely historical sense, is splitting the story into the various knights. So we'll go and follow Sir Robin for a bit and then we'll follow Sir Galahad, whatever. But the way they separate it, out into the different knights going off on their different quests, is quite Arthurian.

I do absolutely love that about it. And also, I started laughing the minute you said Sir Robin because they just said the brave, brave Sir Robin, bravely ran away. And then they ate Sir Robbins minstrels. Everything about it is so good. I just think that it's an absolute barstormer of a movie and you can't say fairer than that. There's one more I wanted to talk about. And if we've missed out your favorite Arthurian film, definitely let us know what it is. The last one that I wanted to talk about, I think it's like a 1980s music video director's fever dream. I know what you're talking about. I'm already laughing.

I mean, if you don't know what it is, by now, you've not seen this. So this is Excalibur. I'm just like, bwong. You can hear the guitar chords already. It's like 80s hair metal made a film and decided to make it Arthurian. But it works. I love it. It's so good.

And it really does tap into the genuine. in Uther Pen Dragon myth and how Arthur is born and how he comes to power. It looks so of its time. I don't know what an audience would make of it today. It might single-handedly bring back hairspray. I can tell you that much. You know, we're going to bring back hair. Who knew you needed shoulder pads in your armour?

Absolutely. I think it's a master class in dating things for cinema. I think it's cool. Again, you know, if what we're saying that Arthurianna does is adjust to, its audience, it adjusts to its time. Tell you what, Excalibur, baby, it's the 80s again. You know, if the 90s are back right now, the 80s can come back. That's all I'm saying.

It works on the 28th of July, 1984, and never again. Exactly, exactly. But that is so nice. I think it's cool to have Arthiriana that gets made like that where you can pin it to a place in time because it's really keeping the tradition of Arthiriana alive. It's if that is what your interest is at the time. If what you want is shoulder pads and hair, Excalibur is going to give it to you,

and it's going to give it to you good. And that's what happens with our theory on all the time. You know, it starts out very worthy and kind of like a lot of stories about the underworld and how no one can come back from the dead. And by the end, they're like, sex, sex, sex. And then eventually you get around to, oh, no, actually, the real treasure was Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. So you go through all these various ways of looking at it. And I think Excalibur is an example of this. Yeah, I do love it. I really love Excalibur. I think it's such a good watch. And I guess across those films that we've looked at, those five films, like I say, if we've missed your favourite one out, please do tell us.

But we've kind of looked at five films that do very different things with the Arthurian stories. And I think that really highlights for me the idea that these Arthurian stories are timeless, both in the sense that they last forever and it doesn't matter what time they take place in. Absolutely. The entire point of it is that it can be what you need it to be. It adapts to its time. It adapts to its audience.

It's got varying themes that you can pick up and put down depending on what it is you want. And that's why we keep making them. And I hope that long may it continue. I hope that there's more our theory, Anna. I hope that it gets weirder personally. We're here for a weird Arthur film all day long. Well, I mean, I don't know about you, but I have the absolute strongest urge now to completely bypass summer. This was meant to be a summer fun thing.

And I'm now looking at getting into a darkened room with a whole load of movies that I desperately need to watch again and catch up on. Summer. What summer? Who needs summer? Thank you so much for joining us on this rather unusual but very fun episode of Gone Medieval, and we really hope you've enjoyed it as much as we have. Please follow this show on Spotify,

and do tell us your film selections for the categories we've covered. You can comment on the episode in the Spotify app. Matt will return on Friday with a more traditional episode and without me. Don't forget, you can also listen to us in all of History Hits Podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe. As a special gift, you can also get 50% off your first three months when you use the code medieval at checkout.

But for now, it's time to buy more batteries for the TV remote and buy a really, really big bag of popcorn. Bye! Bye!