Gone Medieval - Owain Glyndwr, Welsh Rebel

Episode Date: October 28, 2025

Who was the self-proclaimed Prince of Wales, who was foretold in myth to free Wales from the tyrannical English and who was also a fabled wizard?Dr. Eleanor Janega is joined by Dr. Rhun Emlyn to find the real Owain Glyndwr. They discuss his legendary rebellion against English rule in 1400 and explore the transformation of 14th-century Wales, from Glyndwr's ambitious military feats and his efforts to unite a fractured country, to the myths and legends surrounding this revolutionary character who is still cherished today.More:Welsh Folk TalesWilliam Wallace, Scottish RebelGone Medieval is presented by Dr. Eleanor Janega. Audio editor is Amy Haddow, the senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff.All music used is courtesy of Epidemic Sounds.Gone Medieval is a History Hit podcast.Sign up to History Hit to watch the new Rebel series starring Owain Glyndwr! Plus hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener survey here: https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From long-loss Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr. Eleanor Jarniger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life, only on history hit. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries

with a brand-new release every week exploring everything from the ancient world, to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, I'm Dr. Eleanorianica and welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research from the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to popes, to the Crusades. We delve into the rebellions, plots, and murders that tell us who we really were.

And how we got here. In William Shakespeare's play, Henry IV, a fearsome magician and skilled military tactician is introduced. Of him, the romantic and doomed Harry Hotspur Percy says. Oh, then the earth shook to see the heavens of. on fire, and not in fear of your nativity. Diseased nature oftentimes breaks forth in strange eruptions. Often the teeming earth is with a kind of colic, pinched and vexed by the imprisoning of unruly wind within her womb, which, for enlargement striving, shakes the old bedlam

earth and topples down steeples and moss-grown towers. At your birth, our grandam earth, having this distemperation. and passion shook. This fearsome character is Owen Glendower, based on the actual factual Owain Glendor, self-proclaimed Prince of Wales. Unfortunately, there is very little in the way of evidence that would lead us to believe that he had magical powers

that allowed him to control the wind and that an earthquake accompanied his birth. But he did manage various political feats that were no less astounding, including uniting a fracturous whales to his cause, laying out a vision for whales as a cultural superpower, and keeping a rebellion against the powerful English alive for years on end. Today we're focusing on Blindor because he's incredibly cool,

and many of you have asked us to. But also, in a new series of documentaries on history hit, Professor Michael Livingston is getting up close with some famous medieval rebels. You can watch the film about Owen Glinder right now if you're a subscriber. There's a link in the show notes for the episode. But I couldn't let Michael have all the fun. So today I will be chatting about the real Owen Glendor, along with Dr. Hruhn Enlin, a lecturer at Aberystwyth University and specialist in all things Welsh medieval.

Welcome to Gone Medieval. Thank you very much. It's great to be here. We are so excited to have you on because this is one of those fan-favorite sort of conversations. We're going to talk about the man, the legend, Owen Glendler, and I think we have to start off by acknowledging that his life and his rebellion are legendary at this point, which is why so many people want to talk about him. But it's sometimes difficult to scrape beneath those legends and the mythologies in order to get at the man himself. So can you paint us a bit of a picture about who he was before? the uprising began and the sort of political, I guess, situation that shaped his early life.

Okay. Wow. That's a big question. Yeah, that's all. That's all. Just do that. Yeah, fantastic. And you're absolutely right. I mean, he's become a myth. He's become a legend. I suppose we can talk about that later if you want as well, because it's so fantastic. And such a big contribution of who he is is this mythology that's developed around him. But yeah, to answer your question. I think it's really interesting context where we find Owen Glendour, so being raised in the 14th century in Wales. So 40th century Wales, in a sense, is very interesting periods, a period where Wales is really changing. So a hundred years before the Glendur Rebellion, Wales had been conquered by Edward I. And obviously, that was then a dramatic change

for people in Wales, certainly being ruled by a King of England. So that is a dramatic change, you know, change in law for many people, change as well in how the status of people. So, you know, you had a different legal status often if you were Welsh rather than English. So a lot of changes going on. And of course, on top of that, you know, what else is going on in the 14th century? Oh, it does a few things. So black death and everything else going on as well. And so as was in that context where, you know, the Welsh would be.

been conquered, they've sort of, well, they feel that conquest a bit. And then, of course, everything else goes wrong, you know, black death comes, pudes of famine and so on. And I suppose people and wheels look back and think, well, this didn't happen before we were conquered. And so, you know, it really is a complicated, but also a very turbulent time, a time that's right for rebellion. So this has got to have knock-on effects for someone as a person as well. You don't come through, the 14th century without being a little bruised, I guess, being a little bit, you know, let alone when you are also dealing with what a new occupation looks like, what with dealing with new rulers, new sets of legal codes, all of these things. So do you think that this is

something that has knock-on effects for how Oyan himself encounters the world? Yeah, probably. I mean, he was born, well, in the 1550s, so you know, things are settled down. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I suppose, yeah, he was young, you know, he would have been a young child when the plague came back with a children's plague

or things like that, so children particularly vulnerable at that point. But I suppose he lived in a time where things had settled down a little bit since the conquest, so people have started to get used to it. But it's quite interesting that he's from families, the descendants of the rulers. pre-conquest. So his family, you know, you can think of what sort of stories would they be telling

in which one another, how that might impact their identity as a family. You know, his father was from the Royal Dynasty of Poiss in Mid Wales, his mother from the Royal Dynasty of De Haibarth in the South. So he's been brought up in this context where this family knows that they used to have higher status. They're still obviously much better off than most people around them. And yet, you know, there must be this feeling of frustration growing up and, you know, of world turning upside down with, you know, the black death and everything else. And I suppose, you know, in that context, if you're trying to find a way in the world, you know, we know that Oenglindur was a soldier. He fought in the English army against the Scots and against the French. He probably didn't mention that when he later allied with them.

But he had, you know, he, so that was one way you could sort of succeed and succeed. do well in this new context in Wales. So he did that, but he might still be frustrated that he didn't lead him anywhere, really. It didn't allow him to probably have the status that he felt he deserved. I think that's a really interesting point because we have a tendency, especially as a result of what he ends up doing with his life, to sort of imagine that people are diametrically opposed to their rulers or their conquerors, but especially if you're coming from the ruling class, a lot of the time it can be, yes, I don't like this demotion, but still there are ways to sort of make my way up in the world. And we see people change sides all the time.

You know, I'm thinking about like L-C'd in Spain around the same time. He was just like, yeah, I don't know, who's going to hire me? And when you say this, you see this with Glindor as well. Yeah. I mean, it's really interesting because many of the people, you know, Gingdor himself, obviously, but many of his followers were people who were pillars of the establishment. before the rebellion. So there were families who, I suppose, it's a matter of working out well. You know, this is the situation. We ruled over now by English kings and by these martial lords. So we have to make do with the situation and what's the best way to succeed in this context we find ourselves? So, and I think that's one of the really interesting things about the rebellion. I think we can,

certainly there was oppression of the Welsh people before rebellion. But I suppose some people were also successful, there were some opportunities for the few who could sort of find their way. And what's then interesting is that even those who had done, you know, the best out of the situation, many of them still rebelled when the opportunity came. So not quite sure what that tells us. Yeah. You know, well, I'll tell you what it tells us is that, you know, the Welsh spirit is indomitable. Well, of course, of course.

Obviously. Okay, so Glendor's got this long military career. under the English. It's not insubstantial. But he comes back to Wales in around 1400. When he gets back, what's happening for him at home? He lives a quite a comfortable life, to be honest. He's got two very nice estates. He is an important patron of poets. Poetry is massive in Wales in this period. So we have real wealth of poetry from Wales. And Plindur has the privilege of having probably one of the, the more famous and best Welsh poet of his day, you know, coming to his court and praising him.

And we've got a fantastic poem praising Glendur's home and saying, you know, obviously it's the best house in the world. So we've got this, all this poetry as well. And he really is part of this Welsh culture. And part of this culture as well is prophecy. So, and this will play a part in his rebellion as well. But prophecy has become a really important part. part of Welsh culture. So certainly after the conquest, where people are looking for someone to save

them, a messianic figure, if you like, and this has become a stream through the poetry. And, you know, obviously this might be having an impact on him as well. And so he's part of this culture, which is sort of praises the past, praises the heroes of the past, but also hopes for a better future. And we know that Glyndur probably, you know, paid more attention. to these prophecies the most because we know he had a personal profit as well. So someone who was with him, you know, interpreting events in the line of prophecy and so on. So, you know, it's easy for us to think that that's strange. But, you know, at the time, your prophecy was very, very important. Look, I'll tell you what, I don't think it's strange now if I became a billionaire. I'm getting

myself a profit immediately. Yeah, exactly. Oh, that's my profit. Money well spent. Yeah, thank you. You know, that's a, that's a, that's a, this. That is such a wonderful thing. And it's so incredibly very late medieval as well. People are, I think, across Europe, you see people who are really interested in prophecy, who are really interested in interpretation of anything from what they see as the current political landscape or the Bible or both things brought together. There is rather a lot of it about the shop. And I think that we have a tendency to think that that's sort of wild now.

But in a lot of ways, it's its own kind of religious strand. And I do think that we get rather a lot of it out of Wales, though, don't we as well? You know, prophecies of Merlin, I'm thinking here, you know, all of these things that have very specifically Welsh roots that go on to dominate in other parts of Europe. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so Owens at home, his very nice home, that I think we can all agree that it's wonderful. And he's, he's vibing. He's got his prophet. it. He's got his poets. But something happens in there, right? So there has to be at some point

time when Glendor wakes up and he says, you know what, it's time. Like a prophecy isn't enough. I've got to do it myself. What is it, do you think, that makes this tip over into action from just vibing? Yeah. Okay. Well, there is a debate about that, as often there is, about important events. There is, clearly was a time, you know, 399, 1400, you know, in Welsh history and in English history, the same things are happening.

And, you know, who's king of England has an impact on Wales as well. So that's parts of the context. So, you know, 1399, of course, Richard II loses the crown to his cousin, becomes Henry the 4th. And, you know, some people are Wales loyal to Richard the 2nd.

So not going to do it particularly possibly, but others are. So it's a period of turmoil. Things are changing. And also what really goes on at that time is that Glyndtourg himself clearly faces personal injustice. And there are various stories about what happened. He's got a dispute between him and his neighbour,

Lord Grey, of Rithyn. And is it about land? Is it about the fact that Lord Grey had stopped the summons from going to war, from reaching Glendur, and Glendur, as a result, seemed to be, as if he wasn't an obedient vassal anymore. So there are various stories, but something happened which secured sort of injustice for Glendur,

and even though he tried to secure justice in the royal court, he wasn't given it. And in a sense, that was the trigger probably, for him personally. But in a sense, he represented a lot of injustice that people across wheels were facing. So it's sort of one example of what many people were facing. And that was the trigger, whether he was thinking of rebelling anyway, is another question. But that certainly was the trigger.

And so what happened is that 15 men got together in his home at Glinda Verdui, the house where he's named after. And they proclaimed him, you know, Prince of Wales. You go right to the top. You don't say, you know, oh, well, we're going to complain and see what happens, you know. We've got to change the world. And that's what they try to do. I love that. swing for the fences, baby.

Yeah. But you mentioned this, you know, he's getting people from across Wales. And I think that that is one of the things that's really quite interesting about him, because he really manages to unite varying Welsh factions. And there have been historical divisions ordinarily, no? Oh, absolutely. So Wales traditionally is very, very divided. And I suppose it's one of the things.

And when I speak to first year students is one of the first messages when they're introduced into Welsh history in this period, you know, what you need to understand is the Welsha as often as not fighting one another, you know, more than anyone else, to be honest. But yeah, absolutely, there are historical divisions amongst the Welsh, you know. I mentioned earlier, his father's from one royal dynasty, his mother was from another. Historically, his, you know, one side of his family would have been fighting against the other, you know, so the wheels is traditionally divided. Sometimes a ruler comes along, so in the past there had been people like Griffith,

Llewellyn, King of Wales and so on. They'd managed to unite the Welsh. And he managed for a while. And then after their death, you know, Wales splits up again. So, yeah, historically, the Welsh often fought against one another. It was one of the ironies of conquest in a way is that he got rid of all these royal dynasties. And so, in a sense, it made the Welsh more united. So it was easier to unite people in some ways after conquest than it was before. Not that I'm going to thank Edward I first for that, of course. I don't think that any of us need to hand it to Edward I, that's absolutely fine. But it is amazing how outside forces can create cohesive units out of people who ordinarily would not get on, though. I mean, I suppose we see this across history.

So, you know, he's able to, I suppose, use his own person, which is United. I mean, and I find that really interesting as well because that's what a good, medieval marriage is supposed to do, right? Like, a good, solid noble marriage should be smoothing things over, creating alliances, brokering peace in some way. And so Lindor, I suppose, is

literally the man that he is meant to be here. Yeah, yeah. And I suppose if you're looking around Wales at the time, they're thinking, well, you know, the previous Welsh princes have gone, who's left, who has the best claim, who has the most royal blood in him. And yeah, because of his, you know, his parents' marriage,

he is the man with the best claim to be Prince of Wales. So absolutely that really helps in them to draw people together. And if you imagine in this context, you know, within Wales, these families, they've got connections, you know, they're trying to marry into other families of status across Wales. It means that there is a network running through Wales of these families of the same status as Gleindur. And so through this network,

it's easier for rebellion to flow. So, you know, with him when he proclaims himself Prince of Wales, that his brother, his son, his sort of brothers-in-law with him as well, at the same time his cousins rebel on Anglessee, the other side of North Wales. And then, you know, these family links with the South as well. So these family networks really, you know, people are loyal to their family members,

and that really helps to spread fan the flames of rebellion, I feel like. Hmm. And one of the things that really manages to help him, out too is, so here's a man who is very possessed of himself. You know, at the minute he's like, I am the Prince of Wales. He manages to sort of break containment almost immediately. He doesn't just keep this as a local Welsh affair. He immediately starts reaching out to other major personalities, right? Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, he clearly, you know, well, early on, the rebellion, rebellion lasted a few weeks initially, so it started on the 16th of September.

1400 and it lasts for a few weeks and then sort of disappears and it looks as if it's over but over the course of 1401 it sort of reignites and yet during that year then when he's sort of he's starting again that's when he clearly is already thinking about the international element so we have letters or account of letters he wrote to the king of Scotland asking for support to lord in ireland to ask for support and i suppose the context I don't know if you wanted me to say something about the context because that's quite useful to know here. So at this point, of course, Wales has been conquered by England.

Ireland has been conquered, but England's grasp on Ireland is sort of weakening at this point. Scotland is independent, has his own king, and then England is at war with France. Do you know the Hundred Years' War? So I can see your face lighting up there when I mentioned the Hendon Disbo. And so because of that, of course,

this really interesting political dynamics across Europe. And Scotland, our allies of France, against England, and so Glendour is already thinking, you know, early in the rebellion, you know, how is this going to succeed now? How can I spread this rebellion?

And one of the ways he sees clearly early on is by getting some help from Scotland, getting the Scots involved, trying to encourage rebellion in Ireland as well, trying to have, you know, attacks on England in different directions. And if he's to succeed, he needs to get help from the outside as well. Because, you know, let's face it, it is going to be a David and Goliath struggle to try for Glandour to try and beat Henry VIII. So he needs all the help you can get.

Yeah, and I'm Curtin thinking that he also goes to the King of France as well, right? Yeah, yeah. which I find this is so fantastic because it's like, it's pretty, pretty ballsy stuff, right? Yeah. I suppose there is, you know, this sort of connection that has existed between Wales, Ireland and Scotland, you know, at the very least, we're like, all my homies hate England, you know, etc. But the French, that's an interesting angle to try to work. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it might seem strange to us, but he suppose it was the natural thing for Glingdour to do.

but we're very ambitious, but he was successful as well. So it wasn't the first time that a Welsh ruler had tried to ally with France against England. So it happened first time in the 12th century. So the 12th century, the most important Welsh ruler, Owen Gwinez, he had in lines with France against Henry II. Then it happened 13th century, Glewellyn the Great against King John had in lines with France, And even just 30 years before the rebellion,

there was another Welshman who proclaimed himself Prince of Wales. He was also called Owein, confusingly. O'Owein Lau Gogh, O'Ongoch, O'Ine of the Red Hand. And he was a captain of Welsh mercenaries in France. So he fought with the French against the English during the Hundred Years' War. He was a great nephew of previous Welsh princes. So he was, you know, had a good claim to call himself Prince of Wales and was given an army by France as well

to sail to Wales to, you know, to take control. The weather stopped them, unfortunately. And they had to turn back. Oh no. And he was assassinated before he could try again. So, but in that case, you know, France had already supported the Welsh against the English. So it made sense to Glandour then to think, right, okay, France, obviously, as the other European superpower, you know, that's where I should turn, you know, the red ear and ward with England.

Why not take advantage of that? Yeah, I suppose it's also really politically savvy because by tapping into that, Glendor is also saying, I understand the history of Wales. I understand the history of old connections. I'm simply the new iteration of this old impulse. Yeah, absolutely. And he even changed his coat of arms. to be the same as the coat of arms of the previous claimant the French had helped. So, again, very clever in doing that.

And you can see really what's in it for the French as well. Like, oh, this is going to wind England up. Yeah. Absolutely no end, you know. Yeah. And really, it worked for a while at least. So he got French support. So they formed the treaty, sent ambassadors to the French court.

They formed the treaty to work together. against 10 of the 4th. And they even sent, multiple times, sent soldiers to support him. Especially in 1405, there was a quite a large French army who landed in Pembrokeshire

and then campaigned across the south of Wales with Glendour and probably getting as far as Worcester, actually. So actually invading England as well. Hell yeah. As part of that. Get them. Okay, so I suppose here is a good, as time as any,

talk about what happens in terms of, you know, the main moves that Glendor puts out. So he's got back up from other countries. Everyone agrees that we should be taking the fight to the English in one way or another. How does it all kick off? Yeah, so it begins, you know, September 1400. He's proclaimed Prince of Wales and then things, you know, go quiet. So how do people respond to an actual native Welshman being crowned Prince of Wales? This has to be the sort of thing that people want to say something about, right?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, obviously, they had made to princes in the past, but the conquest had happened now. But what's interesting is we have a poem from the time of the rebellion, which basically answers your specific question there. So the poet Yolo Gorgh was an old man by the time the rebellion happened. But he represents his own view. Does he represent others?

them quite possibly. But he's got a poem, and this is how he begins, responding to this fact that there's now a native Welsh prince. He says, behold the world caused by English arrogance. Very often have I wished to have a lord from amongst us ourselves. And now the time has arrived, you know, so he's rejoicing in the fact that Glendur has now started his rebellion. What's interesting is how the rebellion reignites again, and it's what I consider the first April fool's joke. Because on the 1st of April 1401, Clinton-Dour's cousins capture the castle of Conway, so one of Edd of the First's impressive castles. They capture the castle while the soldiers are in church, because it's Good Friday. So the soldiers are all being very devout.

they're in church and when they come home from church they found the Welsh have taken their castle which is which is a fantastic trick to play of course and really that reignites the rebellion

because it's such an embarrassment to the English crown and people then across much of North and Mid Wales think oh there we go we've started again and off they go and reignite the rebellion and it's from that point then that Glendur starts to fight open battles, they win battles, and then he starts to get in touch with, you know, the Irish, the Scots and the French as well.

And just over time then, for a number of years, the rebellion grows and grows as he has momentum. So first of all, in the north then, in Mid Wales, and then ultimately 1402, 1403, no part of Wales is free from the effect or the rebellion. He also ends up reaching out to places that you wouldn't expect, though, right? Because he goes and gets a hold of some English people as well. Can you tell us a little bit about the tripartite indenture? Oh, oh, well. That is interesting. Yeah, definitely.

I mean, and again, that's why you're so interesting thinking of what's going on in England at the time, because there's so much tension, Henry VIII is king. And, you know, again, showing how politically savvy Glyndour is, He's not just taking advantage of war between England and France, but of political upheaval in England itself. So what he does, he allies with the Mortimer dynasty, so one of the most important dynasties in England. Actually, what he does is he captures a representative of that family,

Edmund Mortimer, in battle, and manages to turn him. And so... It's not the dream, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And so you've got this family then, the Mortimus, who have actually, you could argue,

a better claim to the English throne than Henry IV. They support him. And then you've got the Persies, the most powerful family in the north of England, their in-laws of the Mortimus,

they're connected with them, and so ultimately they support, they ally themselves with Glendour as well. So what he's doing is he's playing on these difficult now that Richard I second has lost the throne, some supporters of people who look back at the Richard the Seconds period, and he's taking advantage of that, and he's creating, yeah,

what you referred to in the end, this agreement, the tripartite indenture, which, I suppose, if you're not familiar with this document, and particularly if you live in England, it's a very strange document to think about. But I think that we have this tendency to look at history as though everything is always a done deal. You know, the way that things shook out is the way that things were always going to be. And what's great about things like the tripartite indenture is it shows us there were other opportunities available. There are other ways of thinking about things that people attempted. I think that that's really fun because people have a tendency, I mean, even with the Wars of the Roses, which is crazy.

You know, and there's so much that is up in the air to say, oh, this all makes sense. It was always going to shake out this way. And gosh, there are some sliding doors that I really wish had come true. Well, absolutely. And if you, you know, sometimes show a map to people of what was agreed in the tripantantant indenture and sort of, you find it difficult to grasp what they're seeing up. But you're absolutely right. I mean, there are various, you know, points in history where people obviously planned for something different.

And it's for us looking back with hindsight. it looks a bit odd but yeah just to describe what you might see if you would look at a map of the tripart at indenture

so basically it's an agreement between O'Anglindur the Mortimus and the Persies to divide England between them so the Persies are going to have the north of England

the Mortimers are going to have the south Anglindur isn't just going to be print over Wales but also the western part of England so places like Cheshire

Herithetshire Shropshire and so on so that's basically if that would have come true, they wouldn't really be in England, which is, which is, again. What might have been. But I suppose it's just, again, as you're saying, it's sort of the grand scale of the rebellion. It shows how, you know, the impact might have been, not just on Wales, but, you know, on other parts of, or the British Isles and other parts of Europe as well.

Yeah, these are super ambitious plans. And Glendor also has this, he's really interested in the sort of stuff that I'm interested in. You know, he wants to establish universities. He wants there to be a parliament. He thinks that there needs to be reform in terms of how governance works in Wales. And these are kind of fairly radical ideas, but there are also things that certainly exist in different parts of Europe at the time. Where is he getting this from? Yeah, well, that's fascinating

because you're right, it's not that he's ahead of his time he's ahead of time, I suppose, in a Welsh context, he's the first to think about these things in a Welsh context and particularly the universities, although they've been around for a while, but in many parts of Europe they're new. I know sort of Prague, for example, to mention some people to be familiar. Prague, it's only fairly recently that Prague has been established, so in the Holy Roman Empire, it's quite new, isn't it, to have universities?

There weren't any in Scotland. even though they were a completely independent kingdom. So, yeah, he's really thinking about what they need to do to develop a forward-thinking, a successful, a permanent principality. But the answer to your question is that he had very experienced people around it. So, I mean, he probably was a visionary himself, I suppose, just to start the rebellion. But he had people around him who were clearly very intelligent, very experienced, who knew exactly. what they were doing. And, you know, certainly there were a lot of clerics around him who were, you know,

among the top rung, really, of experience. So, for example, he had bishops who supported him. So bishops who were in place before the rebellion was one bishop, John Trevor, bishop of St. Asset. You know, he was a lawyer. He'd graduated in law. He'd spent time in Rome working as one of the main judges and people court. He then worked as a diplomat for English kings. The rebellion comes along and after a while he switches sides. And of course, all those connections and experience and diplomacy, you know, that's there. One of my favourite characters, actually, you know, if you have, you sometimes you have this

game where who from the past would you like to spend time with? And who I like to spend time with like to ask questions of is Griffith Young, who is Glyndor's Chancellor. And he probably is seen as one of the people behind these ambitious ideas. And he's the one that, you know, Glendor's plan was to have an Archbishop of St. David's, who wouldn't just rule over the church in Wales, but also, of course, Western England as well. Obviously, why you're quite a lot. And Griffith Young, the Chancellor, the diplomat as well.

He was the nominee for this Archbishopric. So he is a, yeah, he's a fascinating kind. As it happens, I'm in the process of, you know, not quite out yet, but in a few weeks' time, there's a book that I'm working on with an artist down Therwellyn Hall trying to draw attention to some of these people around Glendur. So we've got portraits, biographies and poetry about a variety of characters who are integral to the Glendure Rebellion. So it's great to, you know, to mention some of these people now here today. I think that that's fantastic because one of the things that really strikes one about Glendor is the fact that he's a team player. This isn't one of these autocratic, it's all about me sort of guys, which is easy to think about people who go around crowning themselves prints. And surely, you know, the Middle Ages is awash with men of that description.

But that isn't what's happening here at all. You have this really interesting court milieu that is working towards a really ambitious. goal. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, there's no doubt that he is the leader of the rebellion. You know, he is clearly the one that's leading it, that's directing it, that people are following him particularly. But you're absolutely right. He's a team player. And he gets all these people involved. All these people are contributing in their own different ways. You know, across Wales, you have luck leaders of rebellion, people who know their area, who command the loyalty of their population. In this area, I'm in Aberystwyth, you know, in this area was a man called

Chis Thie. You know, he'd been sheriff of Cardiganshire before the rebellion. You know, one of the others of pillars of the establishment, now the rebelling comes along, he switches straight away, you know, and joins the rebellion. And then he leads the rebellion on the local level. And you're thinking, I think you mentioned Parliament earlier, and I think it's really important to think about how Clean Dura was a team player in that sense as well. So we know that he held three parliaments at least. So he held his first parliament in Mechuntheth in 1404, then in Harlech in 145, and then a third parliament in 1406. And there he had representatives from all the different parts of Wales under his control.

And they were there to discuss. You know, he was consulting with people. He was, you know, they were discussing things like, you know, foreign policy, you know, what shall we do with this alliance with France? What shall we do if we're offered a treaty with England? And, you know, if the truce is offered and things like that. So they really are discussing things. He's consulting.

I suppose it is his decision in the end. Well, there is an element of consulting and, you know, getting these people together. And so it's interesting to think about, you know, these parliaments, which, you know, three parliaments, which he held. And, yeah, again, shows him as, you know, as far as it's possible to be a team player when you're a medieval ruler, that he is a team player. Now, you've mentioned that there are these three parliaments that are held. And I think that's a really important point because what it shows us is how long this rebellion is going on for.

It's really easy to look at a rebellion as a sort of single action. Maybe it lasts about a month or so, you know, say you're the peasants rebellion. You know, fan favorite rebellion, one of my favorite rebellions, you know, these sorts of things. But they get put down pretty quickly. This is actually going on for quite some time, isn't it? Oh, absolutely. I mean, and as you could debate when he finishes, really, because it goes on for so many years. I mean, you know, as was his start off, Cleodora the first few years, 1400, 1402, he sort of, it's your sort of, the sort of rebellion you might expect where they're hiding in the mountains and appearing and then they're disappearing again. 1403 onwards to 1407 say he is acting as Prince in many ways.

You know, he's not in control of Hall of Wales, but he is in many ways acting as Prince. And then after that, things gradually deteriorate. He sort of basically Wales has reconquered by the English crown over a series of years. And I suppose 1409, you could say, it looks as if it's over. So it takes nine years for it really to look as if it's over, but it's still not over because he's still in hiding and he still has loyal followers and they're still reading into Shropshire, they're still reading in different parts of Wales.

And really, you know, he's got ambassadors, like Griffith Young I mentioned earlier, he's got ambassadors representing him in France, at least into 1417, trying to still get the French to support him again. And it's only 21 years after the beginning of the rebellion that his son accepts a pardon. So, I mean, that's the final act, I suppose, of the rebellion, where until that point his son wasn't willing to give up. So it shows you, again, it's long-lasting. And I think it's one of the things, you know, we think of the rebellion.

We know it failed. And therefore, we think, as you say, it's like one of the other rebellions that might have happened. But I think that it was successful for a while and that it lasted so long. I think it's something that people might probably feel find surprising. And I think that when we look at output from the court and things that are happening at the time, that people really seem invested in this. They're like, oh, great, it's all happening. So, for example, when Glendor's Crown Prince of Wales, you know, a lot of people record this.

We've got stuff from poets and writers. What do we see being created in terms of cultural output around this? Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, in terms of poetry, we have a few poets from the period, but actually not that many. There might be multiple reasons for that. So in terms of that, then, some poetry. But what we do have, I suppose, are the letters that. Glendur sends out. These letters that contain his vision, that show his authority and that show his

voice as well. And there's a historian who refers to Glendur and his angry voice. And he's, and you get a sense to some of the letters about how, how angry he is about the situation that people in Wales find themselves in. And sort of, there's this anger that does come across. But I think the contribution, I mean, the legacy in that sense or the cultural, you know, The culture that comes out of this is his ideas. So the ideas that he produces, they have an influence that will speak to people, you know, centuries later, really. And, I mean, there are various attached to these documents. Of course, you have seals and sort of his seal as a symbol of what he stands for as well.

So I suppose those are the cultural legacy of the rebellion. Okay, so from the other side. What are the English writing about this? I need to know what the haters are saying. Well, it's interesting. Of course, there is a lot of animosity towards the rebellion in England. And of course, especially if you think of places on the border with Wales, they are actually being attacked. And I suppose one of the things that shows the strength of the rebellion as well is that some communities in England actually pay Glendour. Because they say they pay them off, you know, protection money, if you like, you know, saying, well, we'll pay you if you won't attack us.

But certainly there's a lot of fear. And I suppose there is that feeling in England at the time that they have to face war on multiple fronts. They're not actively fighting against the venture at this time, but they could be. There are rebellions in England against any of the false rule. The Scots, of course, are always invading. And now you've got the rebellion in Wales to condemn with as well. So there is quite a lot of fear in Wales. There is even evidence of graffiti being written in churches in one.

in England of people that God please save us from Glandour, you know. So clearly there is this real sense of fear. There is also a sense, I suppose, of admiration, though, sometimes in some chronicles, because there's one example of, I can give you, is of a man called Llein Epcotr, Phithechan, from Kmarthenshire. And he was someone who actively sacrificed his life for the rebellion. So he led Henny the Fourth of a Wild Goose Chase, pretending that he was going to take him to Glyndur.

And after became obvious that he wasn't going to take the king to Gleindur after all, he turned to the story in an English chronicle goes, he turns to the executioner and offers his head. You know, and says, well, you know, I'm not going to betray my leader. And in those chronicles and so on, you sometimes get this sense of admiration for you. Well, or we can learn from this, actually. And of course, there's also, as you can imagine, we've mentioned,

your religion and prophecy already. You know, sometimes they do write about the Welsh rebellion and say, well, is this a punishment, you know, he's God. So there are elements like that. But I suppose Glyndu really grasps the imagination of people in England at the time

and that's, you know, partly led to you know, Shakespeare's depiction of him and so on, this idea that he's a wizard, that he controls the weather, that you think he's here and he disappears and he appears somewhere else instead, you know, So you get this sense, especially if you're with an English army

and you arrive in Wales and the weather turns and you can't go any further and you have to turn back because of the weather. You know, is that going to do? Can he control the weather? You know, so there's a real mystique that grows around him and it's present, or it begins at least, in some of the account of him in England at the time.

So for you, as a historian who's doing work on this person who is literally portrayed as magical at some points in time. Is it, do you know, do you find yourself being cast as kind of Captain Bringdown sometimes? You know, you're having to go in and be like, that's just a guy, you know, and try to sift through all this myth. Anyway, there's so much that's interesting about it anyway. So I'm not quite sure how many people actually believe that he's a wizard. I don't think I've sort of... I'm choosing to.

Yeah, well, I suppose. I'm not quite sure how many people are disappointed, actually disappointed by the fact that he's not a wizard. But I suppose this, I mean, there's so much of interest concerning him anyway that definitely people are, I don't have to feel that I'm disappointing anyone. And I suppose, well, I suppose the disappointment might be for some people if I tell them that he's not still alive somewhere. Under a hill, surely. Yeah.

Of course, there are also these legends, as you can imagine. He's like a King Arthur figure as well in some sense. And there were all these legends and stories that, you know, folklore growing up around him, which about now, he's sleeping in a cave somewhere. And all you need to do is to find him and he'll come back at the right time. I love how medieval people do that. You know, almost everyone has King Arthur,

but, you know, the Czechs have St. Ventureslas. the Germans have Barbarossa and it's like, yeah, and the Welsh have. Yeah, oh, yeah, come on. But it's a long-lusting legend, though. It's not just a medieval legend. It's sort of, you know, people for centuries, these have been recorded in later centuries, you know, these stories about, oh, here was this cave. And then people, of course, having their own local connection to the Glendur rebellion.

So various landmarks called after Glendorio showing the impression he'd left on the memory of, on the landscape, really. I mean, in the village, I'm going to go up in Langernau, in sort of in the middle of North Wales, and there was a legend there that he, that Gleindur had hidden in the woods there, you know. So you've got sort of, again, everywhere you go in Wales, they'd have their different stories about a landmark which was connected to Gleindur and so on. So he clearly had left a deep, deep impression on people. So it's not surprising that people are still interested in him today.

Yeah, do you find it difficult kind of sorting through the folkloric ideas of Glindor? I guess you've got the cultural Glindor and you've got the historical Glindor in a way. Yeah, and I suppose in a sense, both representing in different ways. And although, of course, in many of these myths, we might not go and say, well, actually, that's actually correct and so on. They might not be factually correct. But they still represent what he's meant to people. and so there's still an important part of his story. And you can see the impact he had.

You know, there's a story about him, you know, after the rebellion, getting up early and walking across the hills and he meets an abbot. And he tells the abbot, oh, Abbott, you've got up early this morning. And the abbot tells, no, no, you've got up early, but by centuries, you know. And that sort of, and this sense that he was a man before his time. But all these myths. So I think there are so many documents from the period that it is, you know, it's possible, I mean, how well do we know people from the period is another question.

But you can suddenly get a gist of what he did, what were many of his qualities and so on. So you can differentiate the myth from the time. I mean, his letters, as I mentioned before, were very, very important in trying to understand him. But I suppose we, as historians, we need to be careful that we don't just disson. dismiss all the myths about him as well, because certainly for people in later centuries, that's as much part of his story as what he actually did. And certainly he's had such an impression and a legacy after that, that his legacy is important to consider and has an impact as well. I think that's a really important point because I think we have a tendency

now to look at myths or even use the word myth to sort of mean falsehood or fabrication. But really what myths are is explanatory stories. There are stories that help us to understand how particular cultures are dealing with something. And so it doesn't necessarily matter whether or not these stories are true with a capital T. What matters is that people are telling them and what that says about the culture. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And in a way, Glendur then has been reimagined for different people at different times as well. So you can imagine your 19th century when people are starting to campaign for universities in Wales, for a Welsh parliament and so on,

then he becomes that figure, that visionary figure who sort of, who developed these ideas initially. So, you know, and then you can imagine now with, you know, for example, campaigns for Welsh independence. then obviously he's the bigger that people can latch on to then for campaigning for independence as well. So, you know, people in different periods pick on what they find interesting, what speaks to them. And so different parts of his, of rebellion and of him as a character,

you know, become important at different point in history. Can you talk a little bit about what he means for Welsh people now? I mean, he's certainly one of those names that comes up over and over again when you are talking about the history of Wales. And you can see why anyone in the 19th century would want this. You know, in the 19th century, everyone is so incredibly busy creating the national myth again. Yes, exactly. For why they are a country, why they are a place. And you'll see this all across, you know, Europe, whether it's for German unification or, you know, arguments for nations seceding from varying empires. So I can understand why Welsh people

are doing it then, obviously. But that doesn't mean that people aren't still doing it now, right? Yeah. What's interesting, so before I answer that question, what's interesting is in terms of the 19th century as well, you mentioned in other places they use these heroes as a way of justing themselves being an independent nation. As you suppose in Wales in the 19th century, it's not really about being an independent nation, a bit about showing the, you know, about developing Welsh culture, but as part of a British UK context as well. So, interesting is sort of quite a different connotation. in Wales. But I suppose if you go through Wales today, you will pass many Glendura flags. So you can see the people still take hold of him today. So you'll see the red and yellow flags across Wales.

And so, yeah, he does mean he's sort of, he's another representative of Welsh identity, of Welsh sense of nationhood, absolutely. And I suppose people feel that he's an important part of history, whether they know much about his history. or not. I mean, what he represents is more famous than what he actually did, I suppose. And, you know, now that, you know, certainly he has been taken hold of now in terms of political campaigning. So, as I mentioned, you know, campaign for Welsh independence, for example, you know, he is a figure. He's not actually that campaign mostly thinks about the future rather than the past.

But when he does think about the past, it does mention him in that context. So he does have an underlying sort of subconscious, I suppose, I suppose, suppose general place in the way the Welsh people see their identity. And it is then sometimes brought to the fore when it comes to various campaigns. I could talk to you about this all day. But unfortunately, for everyone, my face hurts from smiling now. So I'm going to have to let you go. But, Hrun, this has been an unmitigated delight.

Thank you so much for coming on. Oh, you're welcome. It's been a pleasure. Thanks to Dr. Hrind Emlin once again. and to you for listening to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original TV documentaries, including Professor Michael Livingstone's amazing new series on medieval rebels, as well as ad-free podcasts by signing up at historyhit.com forward slash subscription. You can follow Gone Medieval on Spotify,

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