Gone Medieval - Pope vs. Emperor: An 11th Century Crisis

Episode Date: July 9, 2024

When you think of drama in the medieval period the appointment of bishops would not naturally come to mind. But the Investiture Controversy is one of those political storms that eventually embroiled almost all of Europe's leaders.Bishops were a big deal, carrying as much political heft as religious, so ceding ground on who picked them was as dangerous as you could get. This was a period when Popes had the power to make or break emperors.Today Dr. Eleanor Janega is joined by Dr. Felicity Hill, lecturer in medieval history at St. Andrews University, to discuss exactly how the politics of religious appointments play out, and why that's such a threat to rulers.Gone Medieval is presented by Dr. Eleanor Janega and edited by Ella Blaxill. The producer is Joseph Knight. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff.Gone Medieval is a History Hit podcast.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original TV documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Sign up HERE for 50% off your first 3 months using code ‘MEDIEVAL’.You can take part in our listener survey here: https://uk.surveymonkey.com/r/6FFT7MK Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From long-loss Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr. Eleanor Jarniger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life only on history hit. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand-new release every week exploring everything from the ancient world,

to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. I'm Dr. Eleanor Yonaga, and today on Gone Medieval from History Hit, we are talking all about the investiture controversy, one of my favorite aspects of the papal imperial rivalry. When you think of drama in the medieval period, I'm not sure that the appointment of bishops would naturally come to mind, unless, of course you're a professional nerd like me. But the Investiger Controversy, or Contest, or Crisis, is one of those political storms that eventually embroiled almost all of Europe's leaders. It was this debate between popes and emperors initially, but eventually between the popes and all royalty, which led to an emperor waiting barefoot in the snow at Canossa for the forgiveness of a pope.

Almost 100 years later, it was the same issue that would play into the death of Thomas Beckett. bishops were a big deal, and seating ground on who picked them was as political and dangerous as you could get. I'm thrilled to be joined by my friend, Dr. Felicity Hill, lecturer in medieval history at St. Andrews University, and a specialist in excommunication. She'll help us to understand exactly how the politics of religious appointments play out, and why that's such a threat to rulers. I think the very, very, very first thing I need to start with is thank you, so much for being here. Felicity, allowing me to exploit my friendship with you to talk about one of my favorite things, the investiture crisis. Oh, thank you for having me. I think this is one of those things that people know the term. Yeah. It's one of those things where if you say it, people will say,

oh, I understand that this is something kind of like vaguely medieval. And our official way of defining the term is pretty dry, right? So it's like, oh, this started in the 11th century. And basically, it's a fight between secular power, so kings, if you're me, the Holy Roman Emperor, and religious people about who gets to invest bishops, which means like appointing them, right? Yeah, I mean, the whole investiture bit is like what even is investiture, which is unhelpful, like from the start, I mean, loosely, yeah, appointing bishops. But with the whole ceremonial thing, which is quite a big part of it. But yeah, I mean, having a name that is like, what even is that isn't necessarily the most,

most helpful thing. It's not great. It kind of lurks in the backgrounds, doesn't it? It's something that people have heard of. But it's not as big a deal. I mean, it's a bigger deal, I think, in German teaching and stuff, because, yeah, you said, Holy Roman Empire. It's got more name recognition than maybe other things that happen in the Middle Ages. But, I mean, I slightly resent the idea that it sounds dry. But, yeah, church versus state. I suppose it's one of those things where I'm with you because it is actually so interesting. And I suppose it's one of the the few things that is kind of like a household name, I guess, if what we're talking about is power dynamics, right? And that's really cool. Yes. I mean, the power dynamics is really crucial.

And that's exciting. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So let me start you off then with, you know, the very most basic question then, which is what's the investiture crisis? Okay. So right, we'll do proper historian dates. Defining our terms. So 1075 to 1122 is the kind of. of basic timeline. And the main thing is, well, it is many things, but in its core, it's the papacy versus the Holy Roman Empire, a struggle for power and authority. Who is top dog? Who takes precedence over the other, or are they equal? No, definitely not, whoever you ask. And there are some characters in there, so Pope Gregory the 7th, emperor Henry the 4th, they kind of clash quite significantly. There's a lot of propaganda, which is not an anachronistic term,

particularly in this context, you know, a lot of kind of really public letters and attempts to persuade people of the other side. And there's this really famous incident at the heart of it at Canossa, which is famous because it's really good image. So what happened is they've been fighting. Henry has been excommunicated by the Pope, by Gregory, and it's all gone a bit wrong for him. He kind of miscalculated and actually his own guys turn against him and he's like, oh no, I'm going to have to actually deal with this. And so the Pope is hanging out in Italy with his mate Matilda in a castle and it's winter. And Henry treks over the mountains and camps outside the castle for three days and he's in the snow penitentially. So he's not wearing

his kingly accoutrements. He's not dressed as a king. He's dressed as a penitent. So he's got bare feet, bare head and he hangs out in the snow for three days going, please, please, please, forget. me. And so this is a really big, a really significant image, right? Because it just seems like this clear sign of the papacy is winning, right? So you've got this king, no longer being a king begging him. So if you have that image in your head, it's like, okay, the papacy is the top dog. The papacy is winning. And this would be a massive change in power dynamics from the earlier middle ages. Now, everything is a lot more complicated than that. I'd add that the invested contest has, in the past, been called Gregorian Reform. So there's actually a lot of other stuff.

going on. It is not just about investiture. Which kind of leads me to the next question. Here we've got Pope Gregory the 7th, after whom we named the reforms. And he's born as Hildebrand. He becomes the Pope in 1073. And he's really attempting to do a reform movement, which the church simply loves to have a reform movement every 150 years or so. They love a good reform. And most particularly, you know, this is a really interesting period, I think, for people who are not medieval historians, because I think there's this idea of the Middle Ages as this time when the papacy is always really strong. They can always tell rulers what to do. They've got this really big grip on Europe. And, you know, I think earlier in the medieval period, that's not true at all. And more specifically with that,

what Gregory is really attempting to do is to strengthen the papacy and its authority and say, look, we are completely independent from secular rulers. We are a legalistic entity unto our own. And we get to call various shots. One thing to think about and a good question is, what's Gregory's deal? Who's Gregory the seventh? If you were going to introduce me to him, what would you say about him? Oh, yeah. Well, he is a really big figure and he looms really large. Like I said, you know, Gregorian reform has been named after him. Some caveats, right, that actually, you know, scholars point out that is not all about him. And in fact, a lot of the reforms went before him or came after him and they originated with other people.

That said, he's really important. And, you know, none of us these days really want to go into the whole great man history thing. But, I mean, you cannot understand the investor contest without accepting that both Gregory and Henry had like really strong personalities. And that things would have gone down differently if they hadn't been alive at the same time and in their relative positions. I mean, Gregory, his, like you said, his birth name was Hildebrand, nicknamed Hell Brand, which I think probably tells you quite a lot about his personality. He was stubborn and pretty uncompromising when he came to his beliefs about the precedence of the papacy, and he was not having any of it in terms of giving concessions.

So it is not all about him, and there's loads of stuff that he was not the sole universal author of. But yeah, he was a grumpy guy, and he was an authoritarian guy. Yeah, Hellbrand. Hell Brad. So, okay, so what we did say about him is that, you know, he wants to do a bunch of reforms. He wants to give more power to the church. So he's kind of like one in a line. He's just maybe the most stubborn one to ever do it. Yeah. And I mean, there are also things like he lucked out a bit because when Henry IV comes to the throne, he's a child. You know, this is a constant start history, at least when, you know, people reigned by hereditary inheritance. That doesn't, that's a realtor. Areditary monarchs? Yeah. So when you've got hereditary positions, monarchs and so on,

if you get a child who comes to power, then everyone else takes advantage of that. So there's a kind of element of that here, that while he's still little. And then Henry grows up, and it says that he's also got a really strong personality and has been brought up to believe in sacral kingship, which is this idea that kings are not simply secular rulers,

but actually have been placed there by God, and that they have a semi-sacadotal role. Which is really central to this, because that's what allows them to claim that they actually do have equal footing with the papacy, which again, the papacy completely rejects. But that is an important part. And if you've been brought up to believe that, you can see how things take a turn when, you know, Gregory's kind of there insisting that, no, you must, you must bow down to me. Okay, I suppose then the next question is, who's our boy, Henry the

fourth? Like, you know, so he comes to the throne as a child. How does this happen in this circumstance? because the Holy Roman imperial crown, as even a concept, is fairly new around this point in time. How are we getting this young man, Henry IV, around in the area? Well, I mean, his dad dies, obviously. RIP.I. But it is true, actually, and I shouldn't have stressed so much the hereditary aspect, because actually German kingship wasn't strictly hereditary in this period, and actually they do have an election system,

which you might actually be able to explain better than I can. Probably. I have. in fact, done that. So I've done a whole episode where I made everyone sit down and listen to me ramble on about the election process. But yes. Cool. Well, go and listen to that guys, and then come back. And guys, that's the Holy Roman Empire explainer. So, you know, I do encourage you to get into it. But nonetheless, it seems that at least at the beginning, Henry is kind of, I mean, it is important actually that later on when Gregory kind of excommunicates him and deposes him,

that there are opponents, right? And that an anti-king is elected, who is brilliantly named Rudolph, which I think now that we just mainly think about silly reindeer's, I just think is quite funny. Yeah. My grandfather was a Rudolph. You know, it's a big kind of Holy Roman imperial thing, like Slovak Rudolph's walking around the shop.

So, you know, there you go. I think that is actually significant. And like I said, when I was talking about Knosser, Gregory has to deal with this opposition. And, you know, if the Pope's deposed him and they don't like him, they can kind of go, ha ha, we have an excuse to rebel against you and to elect our rival and so on.

So, you know, basically, here's Henry. We've got Henry. He's not a fan of the Gregorian reforms. We could just say that very, very lightly, you know. And I suppose this is one of these things where here we can talk about why kings hate this so much. You know, because now we tend to think, oh yeah, well, the separation of church and state,

which is a very modern idea. It seems really obvious to us. Why would a king get to say who the bishop is? that just kind of seems very silly. But this was like an incredibly important position, you know, your local bishop, because they are the intermediaries that you have with Rome a lot of the time. And kings often stashed their younger brothers. And they're really important rulers, and particularly in Germany,

there is no real separation between bishops and kind of ruling the land in a more what we would think of a secular way. And bishop, I mean, they're rich. There's so much money at stake here that, yeah, you want to be able to give it to your mates or your younger brother, and people, fundamentally people that you trust. So that might be people of the right kind of noble class and whatever. What you don't want is some guy over in Rome being like, here, I've chosen this really important local ruler who you now have to deal with.

Yeah. And to be fair, okay, to Henry and, you know, everybody else who was also mad about this across Europe, for quite a long time, you got to choose the bishop when you were king. It was mostly kings doing it for a really long time. Totally. I mean, this is a massive change. And I think we can all appreciate that when something gets snatched out from under you, even if it, in hindsight, maybe seems reasonable.

And certainly the later middle ages, it's like, yeah, obviously. But it's something that you're used to be able to do. Of course I get to choose my bishops. And absolutely understood to be standard. And I think one of the most important things to understand about the investiture contest and why it matters, right? And I'm sure your listeners kind of quite keen to know why they should care at all about this. If you are thinking about, I mean, unless you are a massive geek and you really are an expert on the middle ages.

But otherwise, when you think about the medieval papacy and frankly the Catholic Church as a whole, you are almost certainly thinking about after the investiture contest. Because before this, you know, we've talked about reforms a bit more generally. Priests didn't have to be celibate. They could be married. They could have kids. And again, that's like a massive change that happens in this period quite suddenly. and it is not what we think of when we think of the Catholic Church having, you know, married priests

and their children running around to the parish, you know, not that parishes were quite such a big deal in this period either. But this is a really significant change. And before, not just Gregory, but, you know, that mid-11th century period, the papacy really isn't very powerful at all. You know, he's the bishop of Rome. Beyond that, very, very strong limits to how much anyone cares what he's up to and cares what he thinks about them. And if you fast forward to kind of 1,200 and you've got Innocent the Third, really intervening a lot in the lives of kings and their peoples, you know, we are not there yet, but that all comes kind of as a result of this invested contest. And by then it's kind of understood, it doesn't always go to plan, but it's understood that the papacy is top dog and he can tell the kings off and he can cause a fuss if somebody tries to let their own bishop or archbishop. But before this is a massive change. And Henry getting annoyed about it,

you can really see his point of view. Yeah, I mean, I'm team emperor the entire time. So, you know, it's a bad one for me, I'm afraid. But it's a massive power grab, I suppose, is one way of looking at it. And, you know, yeah, you know, suddenly, oh, my cousin doesn't get to be the bishop. If you're the Holy Roman emperor as well. And you've got like three archbishops who are going to be responsible for electing the next Holy Roman emperor, which you're hoping is going to be your son.

And if you get on the wrong side of the pope, he can stack Trier mind. full of people that don't like you. And then suddenly you don't know who's going to be the next emperor and it's not going to be in your family. So this is a real challenge, you know, for Holy Roman emperors in particular. And so, you know, Henry is like, absolutely not. I'm not going to go with this, right? And then because it's Gregory and because it's this new kind of legalistic church,

this results in actual legal challenges, right, which is our 1075, the Dictatus Papay. Do you want to talk us through a very cool document, cool document chat? Yeah, and not only is it a cool document, I'm so cool that I've got it in front of it. Girl, I love it. Yes. So the deptatus, papae, papai, depending on your sort of choice of Latin pronunciation. Okay, so this is 1075. It's a kind of list of like, I am Pope and this is what I can do.

The really important thing about it before we get into the kind of content is that actually there is no evidence whatsoever that this was, anything remotely public. So it was discovered later by historians. And they were like, oh my God, this is so cool. But actually... It is cool. It is cool. But it is not like...

The Pope is not tweeting this, right? He's not sending out into the world. Okay, so one of the big ones is like, the Pope can depose emperors. Now, that does sound like a little tweet, doesn't it? But there is no evidence. It's like a list. There are some theories about what exactly it is. It's almost like it's a draft and that maybe these are titles.

So something like the Pope can depose emperors in a... kind of canon law thing, that would be a title, and then it would actually expand on it and explain how and why and so on. We don't have any of the explanation. We just have these like bold statements of what the Pope and the kind of relationship with him, particularly in the emperor, is a kind of internal document, as it were, not a public manifesto that's put out into the world. But it says things like that the Pope can depose emperors. All princes should kiss the feet of the Pope alone. I think that's quite a good one. The Pope can depose and restore bishops that he may be judged by no one. Now that one, there's a lot of papal infallibility stuff going on here.

He can absolve from fealty and depose, which is very much linked. That only the Roman pontiff may, by right, be called universal. You know, these are kind of bold statements about the Pope being number one, and he can make or break emper, he's in control of the episcoper, you know, who is a bishop who doesn't deserve to be a bishop and all of that stuff. And really no one gets to question him. So, I mean, it's a cool document. And it gets us into the head of Gregory. It's so funny, though, because it's essentially like, no, you shut up. I'm the most important guy. It just looks like something that you write because you're mad. It's just like a laundry list of things that you wish to be true. Yes. Yes. In a way. But because Gregory's got such a force

of will and because history turned out the way it does, you know, historians a lot of the time we do sort of take that and go, oh yeah, so this is taken as red. And of course, you know, Henry is like, what? I'm just trying to appoint the Archbishop of Milan, a normal thing. As I have every right to do. Everyone has been out here as the emperor saying, this is the Archbishop of Milan for centuries. And now you're telling me that I don't get to even question this. It's absolutely bonkers, really, when you think about it in terms of the pivot of where power lies.

Yeah, for sure. And I think, like you said, the way history then turns out, it's really. really hard not to be teleological about it, not to kind of look forward and go, oh, that's, you know, what we call the papal monarchy later. And it does all originate in this period. And it's hard not to kind of see it as somehow an inevitable outcome, especially since later on. It doesn't always go to plan. Right. So the papacy's power is not unquestioned. But the kind of theory of it is accepted. So even though they have squabbles between, you know, kings and emperors and popes later on, the kind of idea that the Pope should be the one in control is accepted later on.

So the practice doesn't pan out exactly. But, you know, his little laundry list of I shall be kind of comes true. Yeah. Basically, Henry calls his bluff on this almost right away. So he's like, okay, well, that's cute, Gregory. He essentially attempts to depose Gregory, right? Yes. One of the things I love about this is it is the personalities of them

and how petty. I mean, it gets so petty. So you get these letters to each other. And after Henry has kind of deposed Gregory, he refuses to address him as Gregory by his papal name, right? So he's like, hi, Hilda Brand. And he's like, false monk. So Gregory was a monk before he became Pope.

So he's kind of refusing to accept him. And, you know, they're calling each other names. And it's all this really ridiculous public squabble. And it's quite funny. I like to get my students to be. papacy or empire and have squabbles with each other. Using the fine resources, obviously. It's so good because it's like a slap fight, right?

It is. Totally. You know, two of the most important men in Christendom and they're like, no, you shut up. No, you shut up. You know, like that could vote to each other. It's so ridiculously silly, even though it has these huge stakes, right?

Yeah. And it's silly because they both depose the other. So we've got an anti- Pope and an anti-king and a king and a king and a pope. One who's always sort of pointed out. that it's effectively four different people claiming the same role, i.e. the biggest, most powerful person. But as you can imagine, when you've got popes and anti-popes and kings and there's huge amounts of division, you know, who's supporting who, and it puts each of them in a really weak

position. Absolutely. So, you know, 1076, Gregory is like supposed to be deposed according to Henry. Gregory is like, no, Henry. Actually, I think you'll find that you're excommunicated. I mean, I suppose this is as good a time as I need to talk about the concept of excommunication. Because excommunication, again, now to a modern sense, it's like, oh, so the Pope said you're not a Catholic anymore, big deal. Like what's anyone going to do?

But it is actually fairly serious, right? Yeah, although, I mean, my experience is that normal people, i.e. non-massive geeks who study medieval history professionally, I assume it is a really big deal, right? Like, it must be huge to be excommunicated by the Pope. And actually it's historians who are like, oh, who cares? Which, you know, neither is quite correct, really. I should at this point disclose that I've written a whole book on excommunications, so I'm going to try and not, you know, just talk for eternity.

But it can be a really big deal. But equally, you can be someone who is, for example, a really powerful ruler. And whether by convenience or by threats and force or whatever, you can sometimes live with it quite easily. And maybe your supporters or whatever are kind of too. scared to obey the Pope or they just come to bothered. But equally, it gives them an excuse. So, and this is basically what happens to Henry that actually everyone turns against him and they say, well, yeah, and you know, you have actually been deposed and excommunicated. And those two

things go together. They're not the same. So you have to be excommunicated. And then the Pope adds on and goes, and now I'm deposing you. So it's not an absolute, but excommunication and absolving the bonds of feal to you. So this is a really important way in which the world worked in the middle is it is bonds of fealty. So the knight, you know, swearing homage to the guy above him and the guy above him swears homage to the king and the peasants working the land who are unfree, you know. So it's this you might have learned about the feudal pyramid hierarchy. And this feudal pyramid has many issues with it. But absolving those bonds of fealty is something that comes with excommunication. And it actually has really serious implications for your power. Yeah, because like your lords could

say, oh yeah, you're not the emperor anymore. So I'm going to take your land, for example. Exactly. There are also quite serious implications for the soul when it comes to excommunication. So there is a real sense of like, you're going to hell now. Aha. But you can obviously always seek absolution. So that is kind of less scary unless you're super pious, but also unless if you're like dying changes things. But until then, you're like, I'll deal with that later. I'll deal with it, you know, when I can be bothered. It's complicated because on the one of the one of the one. hand, it's really serious. And on the other hand, you might be able to get away with it for a while. But it is quite funny on excommunication that Gregory changes the law on excommunication during

his pontificate. And he makes it kind of less bad. So excommunication is spiritual leprosy. And the idea is it's contagious. So if I'm excommunicated and I talk to you, Eleanor, you are now excommunicated. And then, you know, if you talk to Joseph, he's excommunicated. Gregory's like, it's getting a bit, you know, and I think we're all painfully aware of how contagion works over the last five years. And he's like, this does get quite worried about everyone in the world being excommunicated at some point. So he sort of mentions this epidemic and actually says why it won't transfer to the third person. So you talk to me, you're excommunicated, but then not any further beyond that, unless they then do something bad to themselves,

but not just the contagious bit. But it's because he's been using it so much, that it's kind of his fault. And he also does nice things like, actually, you can continue to talk to a spouse or you can help out a starving person or various other exceptions. So he kind of mitigates the effects of it as well. But it seems to be partly because it's been used so much in his period that he's like, actually, I need to tone this down a bit. So there is some then mitigation of excommunication.

But one way or another, by 1077, Henry's like, uh-oh. Yeah. Well, like you said, once his own guys have started to go, hmm, then he's in a really tricky spot. And so here we are. We got this truck down to Canosa. You know, we're wearing rags. We're standing barefoot in the snow for three days. Oh, you've really entered the body of the emperor now.

You know, I try to. Okay. Right. And here I am and I'm freezing and I'm shivering. And Gregor is in there being like, look at him. All penitent down there. But this is one of the things. I think that you're right.

You know, you're kind of like hitting on this thing. This is one of those things that especially. for historians, like the walk to Canosa, this is one of our jams, right? And I think to a certain extent, it's because it's fairly visceral. There is this thing where we can all sort of relate to how much it must be awful to stand barefoot in the snow repeatedly. And I think also within this, I do think, especially for historians, there's a certain amount of sympathy for Henry, right? Because this is a huge change. And so getting to the point where you're humiliated to this level, is fairly shocking. Would you say that's fair? Do you think, or am I just like being two-team emperor

here? Well, I think it's a really submissive pose, right? Kind of kneeling, like you said, in the snow, not wearing the clothes. And there's a real sense of of humiliation and submissiveness that is integral to this thing that seems, whether you see yourself in Henry's role or you just see it more as an image further there, it's such a clear symbolic gesture. I think the bit where you don't have to feel sorry for Henry is the other interpretation, which is that this was a really clever, strategic move, right? And that it was not some kind of, oh, I'm just going to go and stand out in the snow and hope he forgives me, but actually a really clearly, cleverly orchestrated act. And actually one in which the papacy, or the Pope, rather, one in which Gregory

does not have options. Because you cannot be the head of the church and, you know, Jesus, all about forgiveness. You cannot, even if you really, every fibre of your being, hate this man, Henry IV, he plays a really clever tactical move. He forces the Pope's hand. Gregory cannot, he can't refuse this. You know, he's shown appropriate repentance, which is the whole doctrine of the church. He said, really, really sorry. Look at me, humbling myself before you, Mr. Pope. And Gregory's like, crap, I really hate this guy and I don't actually want to reinstate him, but I have to, because otherwise I'm looking like I'm not behaving as befits my role as supreme representative of God on Earth. So the actual interpretation could be that Henry is the winner here,

that he plays his cards in a clever way and comes out on top. Sure, he had to do that, but it meant that he got everything back. True. Although, I mean, it's not that straightforward, right? Like, he does get everything back. But, you know, meanwhile, it's 1077. And we've suddenly got Rudolph of Swabia, where, like, you know, Henry's down in the snow and Connoisse,

and all the princes are like, quick, while he's gone. Like, let's elect Rudolph. It's true. And also, I mean, what's funny about it is that Connoisseur is this famous incident. And if people know more than just the term investor contest, that might well be the other thing that they know about. But like I said, the investiture contest is generally, you know, 1075 to 1122.

Canossa's in at 1077. So it was like, so not the end of this. And actually, you know, as much as that image is maybe in people's minds and has been, you know, painted and the Germans were into it. And it's this sort of famous image. Actually, Gregory dies having had to run away with an anti-Pope. So in terms of their lifetimes, Gregory is not on top. He wins this one episode, sort of. Like I said, it's more complicated than that.

But then it really things go downhill for him again. Gregory and Henry are at each other's throats in no time at all again. So the idea that this solves anything is just not true. Here, I want to talk a little bit about Rudolph of Swaybia, right? Because here we've got an anti-king, and he's not going to be the last anti-king. This is something that comes up a lot. The far-flung impact of the investiture controversy is that even if eventually in the future, in the 14th century, if you annoy the Pope, he's like, nope, but bz wrong. And you just get new

emperors all the time. And so like, here we go. We've got Rudolph, who is in theory, like the anti-king now. Do you think that this is kind of, for me, I see this as being a really important part of the story, because it's not just saying, oh yeah, hi, I'm the Pope and I can excommunicate you and you were deposed. But it's also saying that also, in the meantime, we've got a guy waiting. here's our man in the wings. And to me, that's a real threat as well. Yes. And of course, then there's the actual military, physical threat. We can talk about things like excommunication, but famously the Pope. I mean, he actually did have armies in the Middle Ages, but he doesn't have the same physical presence.

And, you know, clergy cannot shed blood. And, you know, you get some famous examples. They're not really meant to be wielding swords. So having an anti-king is a kind of real threat on the ground, as it were, that is significant. also comes this whole propaganda aspect. It's all very well having these high up guys squabbling amongst each other, but actually what everyone else is doing and who they're supporting is really significant. Well, I mean, I guess it's just kind of to wrap up, you know, one of the most complex political, you know, concepts in the Middle Ages. As you said, you know, the investor conflict, it doesn't stop until 1122. So what is the eventual, quote unquote, resolution that we reach at this point in time? So the eventual resolution,

is the concorda of Verms in 1122. And that's, by now, we've got Pope Calyxas II and Henry V. The kind of resolution is mostly in favour of the Pope, at least if you look at how things were before this started. I think the caveat is that the real power of emperors stayed a lot more maybe than the written word implies. The other thing is that Investit to is the name given to this whole dispute. and choosing who gets to be bishop is really significant.

And actually we've talked about why the emperor cared, but the Pope cared because visually it's really bad, not only the emperor or any other secular ruler choosing who gets to be bishop, for the reasons that we've sort of said, but they also would invest them, which is a kind of ceremony, which they gave them the bishops mitre and stuff like that. And if you are looking at that, this is an illiterate society. If you're watching that, you're like, okay, cool,

the emperor is making this guy bishop. and the nuances of, oh, no, but he's just playing this role. He's not actually doing it, but he's just giving him the stuff that is lost on somebody watching this ceremony. So this is because, as we said, Gregory kind of is like, no, any churchman is higher than any layman. He's like, we need to stop this. This is not okay. But investiture is really important in this. It's actually bigger after Connoisse.

So even though that's like the most famous moment in the investiture contest, historians have kind of really shown that it becomes a bigger deal, not only after 1077, but actually after Gregory the 7th pontificate. And in fact, his successor, Urban II, who is famous for starting the Crusades, he had to do with Investiture issues more, in fact, than Gregory did. And also part of the reforms that come into it are things like Simoni, which is the buying of ecclesiastical offices, which, I mean, I think we can appreciate. Like, just paying for a job is not okay.

We don't really like bribery still. And things like clerical celibacy and having, two offices, which again makes sense. You meant to be looking after the souls of those people, having two, you can't be two places at once. So there's other stuff going on. But yeah, so the Investiture contest is kind of ended with the Concorda of Verms. So actually, the emperor does get to maintain a nice thing.

It's meant to be purely symbolic and he's like, hasn't got any actual power. Almost reverse happens in practice afterwards. Emperors and kings and so on continues to have a great deal of, say, in the who became some of your listeners might know about King John and the interdict in England and him being excommunicated. And that's because he, as was quite standard still in the early 13th century, to choose your own archbishop and is innocent the third who just goes absolutely not. I'm choosing this guy and it goes very badly wrong. So it continues to be quite standard for secular rulers to get to choose actually in practice. But the theory is like, no, no, this is none of your

business. And I mean, I suppose also one of the things that, that happens is it really depends on your relationship with the Pope yourself. Because if you're in really good standing with the papacy and they love you, you can say, hey, I really think that you should take a look at my friend John. I think he'd make a great bishop. And the papacy will go, okay, fine, you know, whatever, which is okay. But if you are constantly at each other's throats, they're going to be a lot more likely to step in, put someone who they know you don't like in place. and make moves against you because the papacy is very much involved in politics. These are political positions as much as they are religious, right?

I think this is one of the kind of important things to stress here, right? Is that with the Investor contest, in theory, over, that doesn't mean these questions aren't still up in the air. No. It means that there's like a truce, which is nice because the world can get on with other things. This has been dominating Western Europe for quite a long time by 1122. But, yeah, it is absolutely not the end of things. by any means. And the papacy emperor continue to have this really tense relationship. And, you know,

in the 12th century, there are yet more popes and anti-popes. And yet, Frederick Barbarossa, and, you know, he's a pretty strong guy. And the papacy is very much on the back foot for a lot of that time. And a lot of this becomes super theoretical because the pope's pretty weak. So it changes what's meant to happen, but it does not really, yeah, solve all the questions. But it's nice. It's nice to have a little agreement tied up in a bow. It is. You kind of hit on something here because I think to a certain extent when we talk about it as a form of history, you know, and then everyone goes, oh, yeah, and then it was all resolved. And then the investor conflict is over. And I think really, you know, nothing could be further from the truth. I mean, even in the 14th century, you know, my favorite emperor, Emperor Charles the 4th, he's an anti-king first. Because Louis the Bavarian gets to post by Pope John. And then he makes an anti-Pope. He like gets some Franciscan out and says, this is the Pope. So, you know, even in the 14th century, exactly the same thing is still going on.

So you might have, I suppose, some ground rules or a theoretical truce, but all that really does is say, well, we think that it should go something like this, but it doesn't mean that everyone is on board, I guess. Yeah, totally. I mean, and how many laws or theories can we think of now that everyone's like, well, yeah, obviously it should be that way, but like, yeah, we don't actually follow that in practice. Like, God, can you imagine how complicated that would be? sometimes in fair enough ways, others in, I think, probably ways that we don't agree with.

But you're right, the difficulties of trying to make history intelligible, right? Because even the concept of anti-popes, it's not like anyone's around in the middle ages going, oh, well, I support the anti-poch. They're like, no, I saw the Pope. And the other guy, the guy who has gone and down in history is the actual Pope. They would have called him the anti-poep. And, you know, we come along and we go, oh, but it's not that simple. It's not just Gregorian reform, because he didn't do all of it. Oh, it didn't actually, and then everyone hates us because we refuse to let us.

them have nice, clear narratives. Well, Felicity, what can I say? Thank you for coming on and making everybody more confused. That's for sure. Woo-hoo. Thank you so much to everyone for listening. And thank you once again to Felicity for joining me. I'm Dr. Eleanor Yonaga, and this has been Gone Medieval from History Hit.

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