Gone Medieval - Recreating the Viking World in Assassin's Creed: Valhalla

Episode Date: March 15, 2022

Assassin's Creed: Valhalla has brought the Viking Age to life in stunning detail, and now the game is even being used as an educational tool!Maxime Durand is World-Design Director at Ubisoft and the mind behind the hit franchise's Discovery Tour, which is a fun way to learn about history in the game's virtual world. Our very own Dr Cat Jarman acted as a historical consultant for the game, making sure it was as accurate as possible. In this episode she sits down with Maxime to discuss the value of historical gaming as an educator as well as a form of entertainment.AC: Valhalla's latest update 'Dawn of Ragnarok' dropped just last week and is available on all major platforms!For more Gone Medieval content, subscribe to our Gone Medieval newsletter here. If you'd like to learn even more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today!To download, go to Android or Apple store. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From long-loss Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr. Eleanor Jarniger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life, only on history hit. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries

with a brand-new release every week exploring everything from the ancient world, to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello and welcome to Gone Medieval. I'm Dr. Kat Jarman. For many people, history is something you learn at school or in a museum, read about in books or maybe get through one of your favorite podcasts. But for others, history might be accessed in quite a different way. I'm talking about computer games and especially the huge popularity of historical gaming.

But exactly what goes into these games? How are the fictional words created and how much care, if any, at all, do they take to represent a historical period realistically? In this episode, we're going to be talking about one of the most famous of them all, the Assassin's Creed franchise, developed and created by Ubisoft.

Its latest version of the game that came out in 2020 is called A.C. Valhalla and is set in the Viking Age. Something that's unique about this particular game is that it also exists in a version that aims to be educational, the Discovery Tour, where you both play the game but also learn about the history behind it, as well as how the game was created in the first place. I'm really delighted to have with me today to talk about this, Maxine Duran, a historian who is the world design director for Ubisoft's Discovery Tours. Maxime, thank you so much for joining us on Gone Medieval today. Thanks for having me. It's a real pleasure. Great, and I should just for the record here say that we did have worked together in the past because I did actually work as a consultant when Assassin Queen Valhalla Discovery Tour was being made as one of your subject experts.

So I've seen the process a little bit from the inside, but it's great to have you here to talk about it. Thank you. I was so delighted that we collaborated on this project together that if we can shed even more light about it, I'm really happy to do so. Yeah, fantastic. So some of our listeners will be very well acquainted with the game and how it works. But for those who maybe don't know it so well, could you just very briefly explain what is the Assassin's Creed franchise and what's the Discovery Tour and how does this all fit together?

Yes, definitely. So Assassin's Creed is quite a huge franchise that was based and rooted originally with the video game series, which is still its most popular feature. that started back in 2007. And what was super iconic about this franchise is that it started the open world genre in video games. What does that mean? It means that people with the graphics back in 2007

could walk everywhere, they could climb over buildings and really work into a 3D environment. So that was something that was really particular for that game at the time period. But also the very specific thing about that franchise is that it started as an historical video game. So it was originally set in the Crusades time period in the Levant region. And then with time, the series evolved and the games continue to look into different historical

settings with the Renaissance period. We move back in time sometimes with ancient Egypt and ancient Greece. And so we covered a lot of time periods. And the latest one is called Assassin's Creed Valhalla and takes place into the Viking Age. So that's where and what is Assassin's Creed in a big nutshell. But then there is the Discovery Tour, which is something that evolved with time, and it's really a child born from Assassin's Creed. So Discovery Tour is a video game too, but it's an educational one on purpose, I'd say.

The biggest difference is that Assassin's Creed is really an action-adventure game where we are playing as an avatar, we are fighting our way through a storyline, and we're with the Discovery Tour, it's really conflict-free. We have worlds to immerse ourselves with, and the goal is to learn about it. about history and archaeology and really the science behind. So we reuse the same environments, but very two different purposes. And I've been lucky enough to work on both of these franchises, and I'm still stemming the Discovery Tour franchise at the moment.

So your job title is you're the world design director, but you've actually been working for the franchise for quite a long time in different roles. So can you tell us a little bit about what you do now and how you got there, the different roles you've had within it as well? Originally, I really was hired as a historic consultant. I was a historian myself, an 18th century specialist in colonial America, and this is really where I started at Ubisoft. But with time, I basically reuse my toolbox that I learned as a historian

and adapted it to various time periods. And thankfully, because we work with other historians and external consultants, I've been just able to continue to work with the same method. But right now, the idea is that I direct the story. franchise that's called Discover Tour. So with the help of a producer, we look into what are the possible scenarios to create educational opportunities

out of Assassin's Creed games. That can be with video games, but that can also be in terms of museum experiments where we're creating and highlighting artifacts and collections that are merged with digital environments to create really something that's different in terms of museum visits. So on a day-to-day basis, I do

historic research a little bit, but I mostly work with professionals and amazing people, just like you. Oh, thank you. And that's a really interesting and exciting part of my job. It's that we get access to the most accurate and the most recent type of research outcomes. So in terms of developing the AC Valhalla game, you were quite heavily involved in actually designing parts of that in the Discovery Tour, especially, weren't you? What were your sort of roles in that particular game?

So when we create a game like Assassin's Creed Valhalla, we try to understand history to create a game environment. So the biggest difference is that we're not reproducing the past. We're not trying to reconstitute the past. We're trying to make a game environment that's based on it, that's inspired by it. So what does it mean? It means that as a historian, the role is to help teams get answers to their questions. What is going to get them excited?

Which are the landmarks? Who are the historical characters? What do people do on a day-to-day basis? What are their beliefs? It's so interesting because we have to understand a full-time period to be able to portray it in the game. Although the game is going to take artistic liberties that don't make any sense on the historical perspective.

For instance, and this is one of the many examples that we'll find in any Assassin's Creed games, heights of monuments will most of the time be higher in the game than it will be in reality. And this is because it's a game where we can, climb. And because we want to climb, we want things that are high, high enough to climb at least. When it comes to the Discover Tour, which is the educational part, we want to tell the truth because this is what we want to tell in classes. We want people to understand the limits of

different mediums, like video games, but we also want to tell important historic elements. So we explain both. We explain where we got the information from and how we adapted it as which I think is super interesting because there's so much magic that's happening when creating a video game and so many people would like to know how it's done. And there are not that many resources out there unless you want to graduate in game design or something like that. Yeah, absolutely. And I felt very lucky when we first started the collaboration because I got to sit in a presentation that you gave explaining exactly the process behind it and showing some of the previous games

some of the really quite stunning imagery and how you'd recreated buildings and all of that, which was fantastic to see. But let's talk a little bit more about the Valhalla game. So this game is set in 9th century, England and in Scandinavia, basically. And it's incorporating quite a lot of the real history, a real of what's going on there, which is why I got involved in it because that's my time period as well.

I mean, how do you sort of then go about deciding where you want to, to sort of have the real element. So you have places like York or Yorvik, for example, you have sort of towns in Scandinavia, you've got all these different places, you've got a map, which is sort of England, but with a bit of creative license. How do you really go about making those decisions? It's a complex process. Really, there's, I don't think there's any game that I've worked on where from the beginning of the project to the end, which is about two to four years in general, where we come with a very clear idea at the beginning, and in the end, it's the same thing. That never, never happens. It's really a matter of the inspiration that the team will get from the

historical elements, but there are also two other elements that are super important and crucial to the outcome. For instance, with the Viking Age, we knew that the historical perspective is that Vikings are traders, it's complex, they're widespread across the map. We could talk to have talked about them in very different places. But the team, I think, wanted to tell that storyline from the point of view of Alfred the Great, because there was that moment in human history that was interesting where there's a clash with Christianity, there's a clash with the creation of the Kingdom of England with Alfred, or at least an idea of it.

There's a turning point in history at that point, at that moment. So that was a historical interest for the team. But when it comes to the environments, the team also want a lot of priority. So when they decided to take the region they took in Norway for the game, on the historical perspective, it was really because they wanted to relate it to Harold Fairhair, whereas we know that at least the team knew that the most important locations from the Viking Age were not in the region that the game was looking at. But the visual and elements, the fjords, the mountains that the team wanted to provide

to show this kind of austerity for the region were only visually, relatable with the Western Fjords in Norway. So this is why the team took that decision. So this is where we see that history can be a source of inspiration, but then there's the artistic desire, the narrative desire of the team that will also adapt

the way that the team will make their decisions. And you do have some objects and sites and artifacts especially in the game that are just really quite striking representations and they're very, very accurate. And I know that in all your games, for certainly, for some

of those, you do go to quite some lengths to actually make them really, really accurate. And I think one of them in their Valhalla game was the actual crypt at Repton, the monastery, the sort of central part of that crypt, which is one that I've researched that I worked on for quite a long time. And actually, that bit in the middle, it's just like being there. It's really quite, it's quite impressive. You've got, obviously, taking liberties around it, but the central core to it is very, very real. And, I mean, how do you actually do that practically when you decide?

that we would have put this particular element in. What's in the process to get that artefacts to or that, you know, site come to life in the way that you do? It's a matter of, again, multiple facts, but the other element that I didn't answer to before and which will answer this one is the technical aspect. We cannot reproduce everything, so we try to make choices that are impactful.

In the case of Repton, I think the funny bit with it is that the team visited the location, they visited the crypt and they went on many places. They went to York. They went to Norway to various islands as well to get a good sense and a good inspiration. So yeah, there's going to be a question of impact on the narrative track. Repton, I think, was quite important. Maybe visually not as big, not as striking as York would be in the game or as Winchester

or London, for instance, because they're much bigger playgrounds. But the historical relevancy is also super important. And recreating, reconstituting artifacts in the game is part of the believability process. So we'll see some of the houses, for instance, attached houses that are very accurate. They're very close to what we know in terms of archaeology. There will be a lot of artifacts that are real ones that will, that the team will recreate in the game. We actually don't need to do photogrammetry to have them in the game. We just need a couple pictures because photogrammetry is a very recent tool.

for video game making or for archaeology and our... But with video games, we originally were always creating assets from the ground. We did not need photogrammetry before. What it creates, how it changes the way we're working, is that it adds more authenticity. For instance, walls in the game are the result of photogrammetry that was done by the team in England, because it added a sense of chaos in the patterns

that is not done by a human, generally, as easily. Maybe one last item that I could add to this is that the artifacts in the game are usually scoped much bigger than in real life. And there's a good reason for that. It's because if it's as small as in real life, we won't see it because the game, the player's avatar is taking a lot of place on the screen. And so the lens through which we see the game world is much different than our own eyes. That's a really good point. Now, I mean, one of the things related to this, I guess one of the criticisms that people might have of games like this is that a player or user of the game might not necessarily always know what is real and what isn't. And some might think that that's then too misleading and it might be sort of actually creating problems in that people think, well, this is the Viking agent because X, Y and Z are all real.

What about all the other things? And so it sort of causes a sense of confusion. Do you think that's a valid criticism or do you think that's a problem or do you think that your users, don't really make those mistakes? I think we are aware of it to a certain extent. There is a sense of responsibility on the game company's side, and this is why we hire and work with historians. We work with so many museums to try to understand the weight of our decisions.

But ultimately, because it's a video game that's being made, there is that the license that is going to be taken by the game. I'd say we're lucky because the company is accepted that we created Discover tours so that these are, I mean, there are the educational version that is given for free to all players and they're used quite a lot by players. I think they enjoy that compliment very much. And also there's something that's super interesting

that I see as a historian is that because people have played a video game, most of the time they're interested to learn more about the time period. Then there are much more chances that they won't decide to go into a museum to visit it, read a book or even just do a Google research. that's the very least minimum. And this is maybe not something that they would have done unless they had played a video game because we don't have all the same backgrounds as a historian.

Of course I love reading. I love to have complexity. But I acknowledge that this is not the case for everyone. And we live in a society of image and what's better than having a video game where you have the freedom to go wherever you want. You have the freedom to choose for your own self in many situations.

And you can take time if you want to visit a monastery. You don't have the rush of a narrative, for instance, from a movie or a TV series where you cannot go behind the scene. You can't take the time to enjoy that. You're limited by what's happening on the screen. So personally, I really feel like it's a form of entertainment that's very interesting. And I'm happy to see the results the way they are. Yeah, they do. As you say, it's that idea that it acts as a springboard for people to go and check and test and find out more,

which is why I personally think it's not an issue. You're coming from it from the other side, from the academic side. I think people do generally understand, or at least I hope they do. You see, one thing that's curious is that I believe as scientists, we oftentimes forget that at one point in our life, there was a spark that got us into that field in the first place. And I guess it's easy to become judgmental with time and forget where we came from.

But that's the reality for millions of people. Absolutely. And that's the key, the number of people as well. So I mean, I don't know if you have these sort of figures at the top of your head, but we're talking about a really vast number of people, aren't we, playing the games? I mean, do you have any idea how many people roughly play AC Valhalla, for example? What numbers are not out with this AC Valhalla, but overall with the franchise ever since 2007, we talk about more than 155 million people, just for the video games. That's a lot of people. Five million people. I mean, that's insane, really, to think about. Even if I look at one of the latest partnership that we did with an exhibition on ancient Egypt, half a million people visited the exhibition. And that exhibition was highlighting artifacts from ancient Egypt, in an archaeological museum, but with digital environments made with the game. And that really

enhanced the experiment. That's half a million people that were attracted to that museum. Did Edison really take credit for things he didn't invent? Were treadmills originally a form of corporal punishment? And would man have ever got to the moon without the bra? You can expect answers to all these questions and more in the brand new podcast from History Hit, Patented History of Inventions. Join me, Dallas Campbell, as I uncover what really sparked history's most impactful ideas. Each episode, I'll be recruiting the help of experts, scientists, historians,

and even a few real-life inventors. Subscribe to patented history of inventions wherever you listen to your podcasts. Talking about, so you mentioned museums and working museums there. Can you explain something about how you are, how are you collaborating with museums and what sort of ways are you trying to reach new people and work with museums and other institutions like that?

Yeah, we work with museums and institutions on various levels. First, when we tried to do the original research for our video games, We try to get access to information, to articles. We hire professionals to come and do presentations to the team. We record these and use these to inform the team. Then as we're making either Assassin's Creed Valhalla or when we did the Discovery Tour Viking Age, we work hand in hand with museums to highlight their collections and their knowledge within the Discover Tour. And we also are trying whenever it's possible to plan exhibitions.

So for instance, we announced that we will be a major partner of the future exhibition in Winchester, which is going to really take a deep look at King Alfred's reign in the time period. We just, I mean, very recently I participated in the Twitch stream at the Yorvik Viking Center. And so these are all elements because we've been in discussion with these museums for some time, because they invested time and their artifacts in our discovery tour and in exchange, we also wanted to help them promote their cultural mission to attract people to their museum, and so they can really enhance their knowledge and their curiosity.

So I wanted to go back a little bit to the A.C. Valhalla game, and the fact that you're reaching so many people, you talked a little bit about this idea that you have a bit of a responsibility towards what you are actually presenting to people. In terms of the Viking Age, were there any particular stereotypes that you were keen to avoid or any particular topics that you were keen to sort of clarify or represent in a particular way? Yeah, I'd say yes, definitely. I think a lot of people are attracted to the Viking Age, in the same way they're attracted to other historical periods,

because of these enduring myths, which I don't want to promote, but a lot of people are attracted to the Viking era in Assassin's Creed of Valhalla, because of this idea of raiding. But then the team uses that opportunity to go deeper and try to demystify the time period and to give more complexity to these people, to their beliefs, to the complex geopolitics of the time period

between Viking raiders and the Anglo-Saxon and Britain people that are on the island, for instance. Of course, we're in the 21st century, so the question of the women presence is a very important one, As historian, of course, we cannot be blind to that question, even if we don't have all the answers we would like to have, but the game has to make a stance. And so in Assassin's Creed Valhalla,

players have the ability to define if they want to be either male or female at the beginning of the game. And then there will be explanations while we're playing that game to understand why that choice matters and how it can exist. These are some of the heavy decisions that the team is taking, we try to understand the importance of slavery, for instance, in the Viking age, and try to highlight it in the game. But of course, these are sometimes very sensitive subjects, and the way fans or players might be expecting slavery and the way it's going to appear in the game can be very different. So we have to be mindful also that if we are going to go into one direction and explaining it historically in the narrative of the game, it has to be well done.

Otherwise, we might as well avoid it. I think that's a brilliant answer, definitely. So relating to that then a little bit about things like anachronism, so things that are really not quite in place in that time period, maybe because you're putting in something that's a bit earlier or you're putting in something that's quite modern. Is that something that you were deliberately trying to avoid or were you not so worried about that?

Because, I mean, there are some obvious ones. I think you've got the Sutton Who ship mound, for example, which is not Viking Age. It's pre-Viking Age. So that must be quite deliberate. But more in general, how do you treat that particular challenge? Well, I'd say, again, there's no fine line between if something is going to be totally historic or not. I'd say with Assassin's Creed Valhalla, I have so many examples of some of the elements that are super-historicly accurate that people will not notice.

And some of the other that are so obvious that they're not accurate, at least from a historian perspective, one of them is fortresses and castles. I remember having had that discussion very early on with the artistic team, whereas they looked at muts and bales from the time period in wooden fortresses. And I could see in their eyes that it wouldn't make it. That wouldn't make it into the game. And so ultimately what we have is kind of a Norman and castle with 19th century restoration stuck inside. And that's a on purpose choice from the team. There are lots of Roman ruins.

some of them are quite exaggerated in the game and others are based on historical knowledge but where we don't have as much archaeological information for instance the amphitheater in Yorvik in York is one of them but the idea behind having all of these Roman ruins or representations with these huge statues for instance is for players to understand very quickly that these are Roman remains and when we get from one village to another

everything feels different and we can see if one village is more Anglo-Saxon or if it feels more like it's an old Roman ruin and now is it occupied by Viking Raiders or is it occupied by other kind of people. These are elements that the game doesn't explain but shows very quickly to players and so when we're playing,

we very quickly get that sense of being in one place specific in the game world and we know where we're at because it is unique. So I guess that's one of those choices that you do have to make because it's got to make sense to people and a lot of the real history doesn't necessarily make quite as much sense I suppose. And linking back to that, ultimately we cannot do everything.

So the game makers want to have this huge map where we can play for so many hours, but we cannot reproduce everything. So there will be shortcuts between elements that we see that are reused between locations. You mentioned earlier that this game of the franchise has been going for quite a long time. in 2007, I believe.

And do you know, have you seen or can you see in it now whether it's changed how it treats history since then? Are there any big changes when it first came out? It's the first version of the game. And what the sort of latest iteration? Or is it not really changed? No, it has changed for certain.

I can say we're lucky enough that historians were always consulted, but the, I mean, the expectations from players is much higher nowadays. than it was before because there was nothing like it. When Assassin's Creed 1 was released, houses were blocks on the screen of the player, whereas now we can see so many details with 4K and 8K screens. And so there are more expectations regarding historical authenticity.

There are more discussions, which I can see as something that's very interesting. If people are questioning themselves or even questioning the game, that's always very interesting. And in the way that we're making the games also, I think, we try to be more conscious of the choices that are made of the consequences of historical subjects. So that it's not just talking about the past, it's also talking to people in the modern day. So there's that sense, I think, that adds weight to the process of game making. But it's interesting. I think genuinely, game developers like challenges.

So this is just one more of them. So I suppose that's emphasis on the discovery tours and your roles and of talking to different partners and using it educationally, that also shows, I suppose, that sort of increased interest in how the games can be used more widely. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I joined Ubisoft in 2010,

so just a little bit after the second Assassin's Creed was released. And ever since I joined, I was told that teachers, professors were interested, and museums were interested in using the game, or were already using it. But that was very, very small minority. And they had the limit that the game was emrated. So not necessarily easy to bring into a classroom or into a museum.

And the game experience also was not easy because you'd have to fight your way through a village or you'd have to fight through Notre Dame the cathedral, whereas we just wanted to have a stroll and enjoy the historical elements out of it. So that really sparked the idea that we should invest into creating something that would be useful for schools, for museums, and even for families and everyone. basically. I've seen so many people now take the controller for the first time in their life because they could play with the Discovery Tour and they could enjoy going into these digital environments, whereas before they would have been afraid to take on Assassin's Creed and I understand

why. So that's really what sparked the idea. It made us adapt a lot and try to adapt a lot to the educational sphere. But to be super honest, I am aware and the company I think is aware that the Discovery Tour is not perfect and it's all right. I mean, we do our best to get it adapted for classrooms and we work hand in hand with teachers. I mean, there's not a week that passes where I don't have any discussion with a museum or teacher on trying to find the best solution for them or for us to get the game into their classroom or for us to adapt the game to get into their classroom later on. But there's not many companies that are making games like the Discovery Tour.

as far as I'm aware, we're pretty much the only one out there with that kind of quality that can be brought into the classroom. And it was great. I mean, it was great fun to work with you guys and see how you did it and see that you took on all my annoying comments and little perniquity things. I kept coming back, BVas back and forth saying, well, this is quite right. I'm quite used to what we're doing. And you'd sort of come back and respect that, which is just, you know, a great thing to see.

Now, of course, one of the things that's important when you play a game like this is that it's a narrative. So there's a storytelling this. You're not just going in to learn facts or anything like that you might be doing if you just go to a museum. But it's very much narrative driven as all of these games. Can you talk a little bit about that and why that is important?

Yes. As humans, I think this is something that has been interesting for mankind for this fishy for so long, telling a story or being told a story. And whether it's an amazing book like River Kings, which I've read a couple of times now. Thank you.

And we get on with that, we get on with the narrative, we get on with that storytelling. I think that's super compelling. And a product like the Discovery Tour, Viking Age, adapted to that reality. With the two first Discovery tours, we created a digital museum,

basically, where we had guided tours. And I think that there was a lot of value in that way of working. But with the latest one in the Viking Age, we knew that we wanted to adapt to create a storyline. So it's a fictive storyline, but that makes sense in many ways in the past.

And because we care for the people that we're looking after when we're playing, I think we're learning more because even if we're learning a little less, what we're learning is super important. There's that sense of human experience from the past. There are struggles. And I think that sense of empathy is much stronger when we're playing someone's history

or, you know, seeing their feelings more deeply than if we're being told. So I really strongly believe in this. And that's true for documentaries. It's true for so many mediums where we really enjoy carrying on with that storyline. Absolutely. I think you're so right there. And I think this is probably why he's got that power to get people interested in history, who might not think they're interested in history,

who just were bored with it at school as well, because suddenly there is that narrative and there's people, there's choices you sort of, you realize that you, if you lived in the past 1,000 years ago, you still had the same things happening to you in life. You still have to make choices. You still have to make decisions.

And I guess it sort of brings people almost that bit closer to real human lives, even though they are fake human lives, but even so, it's that closeness, isn't it, I suppose, to human experiences? Yeah, and I mean, some things are very, are going to be likewise, because it's a human experience,

but then some elements might be so different and striking that this is where the learning might start because then we realize, oh, that's different. Why is it that different? And that's where I think the reflection can begin. This being said, I do want to say that, of course, that doesn't replace fundamental research

and experimental research. We can exist because experimental research and fundamental research are being carried. We're a result of that. We're not at the forefront of research. So I just want to be thankful for people like you, Kat,

and other people who are doing so much hard work on trying to get these finds. And really that amazes me a lot. I'm glad I'm not going to be out of a job because of Ubisoft. That's good to know. But just, okay, so talking about narratives then,

because of course you've got a storyline running through all of this, but you keep bringing up new updates as well to the game. So even when people have finished the one story and the one game, new things keep coming out. Can you tell me about the latest update to the A.C. Valhalla game? So it's crazy because Ascent's Good Valhalla was released in 2020. And for the first time, we have a second year content update, which is Down of Ragnarok, releasing March 10, and which will take players into a whole new worlds of the dwarf kingdoms of Norse mythology.

and it's super interesting because people are so compelled with Assassin's Creed Valhalla that it pushes the company to continue to create a lot of material. And because the time period is so interesting and there's so much to say about the Viking Age and their beliefs and their people that I think we have so much inspiration to continue and create more content for players. Lastly, I'm also super happy because we will have console versions for Discovery Tour Viking Age. And this is the first time. And what that will allow is that anyone can enjoy this cover tour without necessarily

having to go on and play Assassin's Creed Valhalla, for instance. So it's just another way for schools and museums to get access to the game. And I'm very thankful for that. That's fantastic. Well, I can't get over the sheer numbers of people that this is reaching. And I think it is such a good collaboration as the fact that you're, as you just said, you know, you're using the work of the researchers on the academics. and then your games can provide entertainment and joy and happiness to people.

But it could also provide that sort of springboard and it can be used educationally in museums and schools. So I think it really is something that seems to have developed into something quite powerful. And it's quite exciting to see how it's going to go from here, I think. Well, thank you very much for the opportunity, Kat. It has been a wonder to work with you to collaborate on that project. And it's been great also to be your guest today. Thank you so much.

This was Maxim Duran, talking about. about A.C. Valhalla and the Discovery Tour. This has been an episode of Gone Medieval from History Hit. Thank you so much for listening today. Please do subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already. And you can subscribe to our newsletter, Medieval Mondays. Just look in the episode notes to tell you how to do that. And hopefully we'll have you joining us again next time.