Gone Medieval - Richard I's Consort: Berengaria of Navarre
Episode Date: December 14, 2023Berengaria of Navarre is mainly remembered for just one thing: being a Queen of England who never set foot in England, at least not as Queen. But all that is about to change as Dr Gabrielle Store...y's forthcoming biography of Berengaria is set to shed more light on this neglected, English Queen Consort. In this episode of Gone Medieval, Matt Lewis finds out more from Gabrielle about this fascinating woman.This episode was edited by Tean Stewart-Murray and produced by Rob Weinberg.Enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original documentaries that are released weekly and AD-FREE podcasts. Get a subscription for £1 per month for 3 months with code MEDIEVAL - sign up here.You can take part in our listener survey here. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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Welcome to this episode of Gone Medieval. I'm Matt Lewis.
Berengaria of Navarre is usually known for one thing, being a queen of England who never set
foot in England, at least not as queen. But all that is about to change as Dr Gabby's story's
biography of Berengaria is set to shed more light on this neglected consort. Welcome to Gone
Medieval Gabby. It's great to have you here.
Thank you very much for having me.
be here. I'm very interested to learn a bit more about Berengaria. She's such an elusive kind of figure,
I think, in most people's minds. To start off with, where is Berengaria from? So what does the
of Navar bit mean? Where is Navar and how important is Navar at this time? So Iberian, that is Spain and
Portugal, aren't that familiar to most of us? So Navarre's in the north-east of what is now modern-day
Spain. And at this time, it's surrounded by a series of Iberian kingdom. So you do have early Portugal. You
We've got Aragon and Castile, which might be more familiar to people who have done later medieval history.
You've also got the county of Barcelona nearby as well.
And Navarre's important because where it is on the north-east, it's almost a butting aquit in between this place called the Spanish March.
And Navar's important because it's actually got a history of being quite a powerful kingdom in its own right.
During the reign of Berengarry's father, Sancho the 6th, the kingdom of Pamplona becomes the kingdom of Navarre.
It's a newly established title for it.
And this is showing the extent of its power.
It's kind of growth as a kingdom.
And Navarre's important because of its geographical position, because of its territorial position.
And it's actually got a lot to be gained through an alliance with it because of its strategic position,
because it's able to assist in battles,
because it's got access to trade routes,
because it's got access to the surrounding kingdoms around it.
So it's actually really important in terms of
if you want an ally in conflict,
which is something that comes up time and time again in the medieval period.
Interesting.
So there's sort of a little powerhouse that may be more important
than their size and position might otherwise lead you to believe.
How much do we know about Berengaria's early years about her childhood?
She's born to Sancho the 6th, King of Navarre, and his wife, Sancher, Orbacia of Castile.
Sancho and Sancho? That must be confusing.
Yes, Sancho and Sancho, yeah.
Couldn't be confusing at all if you're trying to work out if that's going to be a niggly A-R-O at the end, if you're looking through documents.
Between them, they have five children, so Beringaria has two sisters, Blanca, who later become the Countess of Champagne and Constanza, as well as the brother, Sancho.
and Fernando. And of her early life, as is often common with medieval women, we don't have a lot of information. We kind of assume that she followed a traditional path of perhaps being sent to a convent or a female monastery for her education and upbringing, that she may have travelled around Navarre with her parents, learning courtly life and the typical skills you see associated with a princess or an infanta, as they're referred to in Spain. And the only
real evidence we have for her early life is that in 1185, a charter is granted that puts her as
close to Montreal, a Frankishborg in the southern part of Navarre. And that's really all we have
until her marriage negotiations with Richard to come up. So yeah, even less evidence for her
upbringing than we do see with lots of other medieval princesses of the time. And then as you said,
She lurches to the forefront of events when she becomes the prospective bride for Richard I first of England, Richard the Lionheart.
So I guess we've touched on them a little bit, I suppose, but what are the benefits to Richard in an alliance with Navarre?
Why is he particularly looking there at this time?
For anyone familiar with the Plantagenets, obviously they're in warfare with France and then the capetians for the majority of their reigns.
And Aquitaine's always been a really contested area in terms of you've got the county of Toulouse to
the east, which it's often in warfare with. And at this point when we're in the late 1180s at the
moment, so at this time, Henry II has had to deal with ongoing capetian threats. Richard comes to
the throne in 1189, and he's also having to deal with the fact that he wants to go on crusade.
He's already taken up his father's bow to go on crusade. But he needs to think about how to protect
his southern borders. And this is really where Navar comes in, because Navarre looks like it will be
that ally that can secure the southern borders against Toulouse, perhaps against the
capetians if needs be, as well as being a useful counterbalance to the other Iberian powers in
the region. Again, you've got Aragon and Castile that are also potential threats to the Plantagenets
at this point. So it's again rarely about military strength which Navarre can provide as well as
geographical strength and defence. And I guess particularly for Richard, having been essentially brought up
to be Duke of Aquitaine, he would have understood the necessity of protecting some of those borders
and perhaps that's why, of all the political alliances he could have made, he goes for one on the
borders of Aquitaine, maybe. Yeah, definitely. Aquitaine is somewhere that's really close to Richard's
heart. Again, that close connection he has with his mother, Eleanor, drives the importance of Aquitaine
to the overall enjavine dominions. But it's not always, of course, all that it seems Richard is actually
engaged at this point to Alice, the sister of Philip Augustus, King of France. So by choosing
the bar over France, Richard's showing a change in the political dynamic at this point. He's
perhaps showing that he doesn't trust that this Anglo-French alliance is going to work out and that
the bar is going to be better suited for his political interest at this time.
It's slightly awkward getting engaged when you're already engaged. A bit of a tricky business.
And I guess on the flip side of this, what's in it for Navarre?
Is it any more than prestige of marrying into one of the most powerful families?
I think it is mainly driven by prestige.
We see often in the medieval period that kingdoms can gain legitimacy,
they can gain authority by marrying up.
And as I say, this kingdom of Navar is newly transitioned.
It's been the kingdom of Pamplona before this.
So it's going to give a real sense of, like you say, prestige, legitimacy
by being married into one of the Western European powerhouses with the Plantagenets.
So I think that's really important.
There is some discussion about previous friendship between the Jimenez,
that's the name of the ruling dynasty of Navarre and the Plantagenets,
which may have had some impact on that decision as well.
But I think Navar looks, again, to be the most important.
They're both going to gain from this situation.
And there's potential longevity going on here as well.
You know, looking beyond Beringeringer and Richard,
there's going to be the potential for airs, potential for a dynasty,
and the potential for this to really be long term.
And I guess there's a fair bit of jostling and everything in Iberia
and it doesn't hurt to have the Anjavine Empire at your back
if you're little Navar looking to hold your own in the region.
No, absolutely not.
Like I say, it is powerful, but it is small.
You've got these bigger kingdoms surrounding it.
And again, it's all about that balance of power that we see so often when it comes to
royals in this period.
You've got to think about how they're going to counterbalance and defence versus attack on
either side of them.
And Navarre, again, strategically placed, but also in that position where it could be
attacked by all sides.
So, yeah, having the planned had to the north would be really beneficial for them.
Potentially stupid medieval question incoming.
Do we have any idea how Berengaria felt about?
about this match?
None at all, I'm afraid.
It's one of those things that we would love.
I'm not surprised when I asked it.
I assume the answer would be no.
It is often the case.
We don't know how the women feel in this situation.
I mean, the real thing that we have for this period is actually Richard's sister's proposed
marriage to Allardil Saladin's brother, which is when we rarely get to see how a woman
feels about marriage because she so strongly refutes it.
But yeah, Berenghara in this instance, really no idea how she would have felt about
that alliance.
Her marriage, the story of how she gets to Richard and becomes married to him
and the immediate aftermath of their marriage.
It's a massive adventure, really.
But how dangerous and frightening must that period have been for her personally to make those long journeys?
For Beringaria, so her journey itself to get married to Richard when she's travelling with
Bell and the Bacquitaine, Overland, through France, through Italy.
And that's her first real international adventure, so to speak.
So her journey to marriage itself is a big adventure for her.
It's a big international trip.
And then to go on the Third Crusade, that's going to be filled with intrigue.
It's going to be filled with adventure for her.
But again, she's got a lot of prospects on the horizon.
She's got a lot of uncertainty.
She doesn't know how she's necessarily going to feel about her new husband, her new court.
And then like we say, to go on the Third Crusade, which is perilous.
It is a dangerous undertaking, no matter if you're a wrong,
or if you're a commoner.
That's a lot for her to see on the horizon.
And so on their way to the Holy Land,
they have this whole other little adventure around Cyprus
where Beringaria sort of gets stranded a little bit
and then we see Richard almost come back and save her.
Do you think Beringaria might have been able to see that
as a promising sign for their marriage?
You've got this chivalric heroic figure
sort of coming back to rescue her from distress.
Absolutely, because what happened is Beringeri initially
makes it to Sicily where she meets up with her future sister-in-law, Joan of Sicily or Joanna, as she
sometimes known. And they travel onwards towards Cyprus, which is where Berengaria and Richard
are going to be married. And they're wrecked as they're approaching Cyprus. And they have to
prevaricate, they have to negotiate with the Emperor of Cyprus, Isaac, who's threatening to take
them hostage if they leave the ship. And then they have to wait for Richard to arrive and he
is successful, he does rescue them, and then goes on to conquer the island of Cyprus. This could
really be an example of what Berengarry has got to look for in Richard. You know, we've already seen
that he is a heroic warrior, he's Chivalric, he's fulfilling, all those kind of masculine ideals of
what it means to be a man. He's a warrior, he's a savior. And this is an example of what life might be
like for them on the crusade in terms of Richard going off and being that soldier,
being that military hero and being a saviour. So yeah, this could really look like to
Beringaria as to what the future might hold for them. When they return from the adventure
of the Crusades in the Holy Land, we get into a whole other adventurous episode in which
Richard is captured on his way home. He's sort of separated from Beringaria. How does she deal
with Richard's captivity, does she have any input into trying to free him? I think quite
famously, it's Eleanor of Aquitaine who's rushing around trying to raise the ransom, but do we see
Beringaria being active at all? With Beringera, so she leaves the Holy Land before Richard does. So
she leaves in the autumn of 1192 with Joanna and again, takes much the same route back as she does
there. They stop off in Rome, which is where we see Beringaria witness to a charter, the only one
we have for her time as Queen and then she returns to the Angevin domains within what is now
modern day France and we suspect she's residents at either Sheenon or Beaufort in Bollet which again is
in that central Anjabin area and Richard takes a different route home he travelled overland as
she mentioned he then gets captured by Leopold IV, Duke of Austria and is then sold on to Henry
the 6th the Holy Roman Emperor and unfortunately we don't
know what Berengarry is doing at this point. Again, as you mentioned, it is about Eleanor. She is the one
who we see petitioning the Pope several times, the one who's running around raising the money,
and we don't know if Berengarry is involved in this raising of funds for the ransom, and it's
just not recorded, or is she just isolated in on June or in Maine, and we just don't know what her
role is at this point. So yeah, a bit disappointing in terms of telling her tale to know what's going on,
but it's very much about Richard and Eleanor and their government at this point when it comes to the ransom
and indeed to the events that followed that.
So I guess for most people then, Richard dies in 1199 and that for many people I think is the end of Berengaria's story.
She's remembered as a queen who never visited England and who had very little input on everything.
People have an image that her and Richard perhaps didn't get on.
They don't have any children.
Maybe they don't even have the chance to have children.
but what happens to her in the aftermath of Richard's death?
Because having spoken to you before, that's kind of where her story really begins for her.
Yeah, absolutely.
When Richard dies, this is really a crucial juncture for Berengaria
because she does now have to make that decision.
Does she try and insert herself onto the political scene,
something which it appears she hasn't been that evident in,
something which means that she's got to kind of go toe-to-to-to-rebellion of Aquitaine
in order to insert herself back into the political picture.
And we know soon after Richard's funeral,
we know he's obviously buried at Bontoro Abbey.
We see Beringaria present with Eleanor,
and we can presume that this is her trying to get herself back
on the political scene, so to speak.
This is her trying to reassert herself and her position
because she's now Dowager Queen, like Eleanor.
She should be afforded some of the wealth and revenues
that a dowager queen is meant to have.
And she's been ignored.
She's been isolated for this period.
And I think it shows a real sign of courage on her part
to try and reinsert herself at this point
because it would have been so easy for her
to have remained isolated for her to perhaps have retired to a convent,
perhaps even have gone back to Navarre,
back to her natal family.
But she doesn't.
She chooses to do something different.
And for the first kind of five years of her,
her widowhood, so up until about 12.04. We've got scant information for her activities. We know
she's petitioning what is now King John for her revenues for her dower, which is what she should
have been granted. And it's then in 1204 that she makes a real decisive moment to then
exchange what should have been her Dowelands in Normandy with Philip Augustus. And in return
for this, she gets LeMont. And this is really, again, where we can see her political career starting.
because she acts as a lord of Le Mans. She doesn't just go to Le Mans and stay there and retire,
and I'm using inverted quotation marks here because that's just not what happens to her.
This is really a new lease of life for Berengera in LeMond.
And it's somewhere where we actually see her all over the French political scene.
We still see her getting involved with John and then his son Henry III regarding financial restitution.
So she doesn't quiet and down at all.
You know, this is really us looking at the apex of her career in her widowhood
and coming back from all these years of kind of isolation and being ignored.
And does she marry again?
Is there ever any sign that she feels the urge to get a man to help her wield this power, if you like?
I know that's a really awful thing to say, but...
No, there isn't.
And it's interesting that there isn't because she's still young when Richard dies.
There's still an ample opportunity that either her brother, Sancho de Sivim,
the King of Navar, that he might have wanted.
wanted her to have remarried for the benefit of them, that perhaps John would have seen her as not a possession, but he would have seen her as a vassal that he could have perhaps looked to have remarried off as well.
But no, there doesn't appear to be any interest from either side. So Berengarry's pretty much left alone.
And I kind of think that's how she wanted it, to be honest, because we see how active she is as a lord in the moment.
We can just see the extent of her power and her activity.
and she does pretty well at being a solo lord.
We can only get the inkling of what she might have been able to accomplish as queen
from that later period in her life because we see her again,
she's petitioning the Pope,
she has interactions with Philip Augustus King of France,
she's obviously petitioning and conversing with John and Henry III.
She's got all the skills of a diplomat and a negotiator.
She's got power as lord.
She's involved with the church,
she's involved with local nobility on several occasions.
And you just really get the sense that this is a dynamic woman.
This is an active person on the political scene.
And that's just been lost to us because, as you mentioned,
she never comes to England whilst she's queen consort.
And we've just lost her at that point.
And it's such a shame because we can really see how much she flourishes
and develops later in life.
You kind of wonder whether she was just enjoying that life
and the freedom that came with it.
and she had no intention of trading that in for being someone else's wife again.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, marriage isn't really the be-all-and-all for medieval women.
It really depends on who you marry.
And from the little evidence we have for Berengar and Richard, again,
not really any indication of closeness.
There's no children born to them.
There's not much indication that they spent a lot of time together.
So whether there was an initial dislike or whether it's not.
neglect on either side, whether there's medical issues that mean they couldn't have children.
There's lots of reasons perhaps why that partnership doesn't work out.
But from that first impression, why would Berengaria have rushed to get married again?
It doesn't appear to have gone particularly successfully the first time.
So yeah, I think she knows that she's in a strong position in LeMond.
She's not that high level that she's going to be a threat to anyone, but she's able to still
be active and do effectively what she's.
wants to do. She's in a neutral enough situation. She's protected with the King of France as her
overlord as well. And I think she's played her cards right in this instance. You know, she's got
what she needs in order to survive. Are there any really good examples of the kind of things that
she involves herself in Le Mans and maybe how the city thought of her as well? Did they appreciate
the lordship that she offered? Yeah, 100%. So Le Mans really interesting even now because
although it's towards the end of her life,
Berengarie does found an abbey,
Le Poe, which is just on the outskirts of Le Mans,
which is where she ends up being buried.
But before that,
we kind of see lots of her activities
and her dealings with the citizens,
with the church, with the local abbeys and the cathedral there.
Some of that is in dispute,
so it's not necessarily like everything's moved all the way through.
But she's very much locally active.
She's not one of those lords who kind of neglects their.
subjects and disappears. We can see she's involved in day-to-day life throughout her career and she's
Lord of Le Mans for 26 years so more than triple the amount of time that she was ever queen consort
and we can just see that she's an active lord and the local memory of her is almost of a heroine
in the sense, you know, she's very fondly remembered and we see this throughout all the writings about her,
all the local histories of her from the last 800 years,
is that she's lorded, she's appreciated for what she gave to the city and to the community.
She's really fondly remembered.
And I think some of that testament is because LePoe still stands and because her effigy's still been present there.
But she is really fondly remembered.
And I think that's got to come from somewhere that's got to come from the benefit she brings as it's lord as well.
It's quite striking that she decided to be buried.
I mean, it's obviously her own foundation, the monastery there,
but it's striking that she didn't choose to be buried next to her husband in Fontainevro,
which might be a more prestigious place and might trumpet her previous status as queen.
She seems like she's more keen to be associated with her time in LeMond than her time as Queen of England.
It is interesting because this is really another period where we can see what we call family Mordelaia,
so family tombs popping up.
Fontefro is obviously a really strong example because you have
Henry II and Eleanor buried there alongside Richard.
Joanna of Sicily was also buried there with her infant son
and John's second wife, Isabella Ranguilm, is later buried there as well.
So yeah, Fontero would have seen like the ideal place as a member of the Plantagenet family
to have chosen to be buried.
But again, I think this is a sign of Berengaria's independent
from her marital family that she chooses to make her own foundation.
that she chooses to be buried in.
And this is something we do see with other noble women in France as well.
It's not unique necessarily to Berengaria,
but again, a sign of her independence.
And also just an indication that she wasn't interested in returning to Navarre either.
You know, she's not interested in going back to her natal family.
That doesn't seem to have served her, or at least her brother Sancho doesn't appear to have served her particularly well whilst she's been a widow.
So I think, again, this is a real indication of her,
just trying to strike it out on her own.
And this is a place where she enjoys power.
She's perhaps actually well liked or at least well respected.
And this is her home now.
And I think that's probably an indication as to why she chose to be buried there
because that was her home.
That was the place she set herself up.
That was the place she wanted to be.
And that was the place she wanted to die.
I'm glad you said that because I was wondering to myself,
whether I'm romanticising it thinking, you know, this was where she was happy and where she wanted
to be because that was where she spent a lot of her life and perhaps the happiest years of her life.
So yes, she could have this high prestige tomb as Queen of England next to Richard,
but actually she wants to stay where she was happiest.
Yeah, I think that's a fair enough statement.
I know there's been a lot done in terms of romanticising medieval queens before,
but I don't think it's too much of a stretch of an imagination for us to say that the
was where she wanted to be because that's what we see throughout.
She doesn't appear to be power hungry.
You know, she's not going above and beyond trying to insert herself into the other royal
families, but she's not meek and retiring either.
Like I say, it's not like she just disappears into the shadows completely.
So I think it's fair enough to say that LeMond is close to her heart.
And indeed, I would say the fact that she found an abbey there, that's where she chooses
to be buried is really important.
I think it's quite striking as well
that in a world that we consider
is averse to female rule and female power
that she didn't have that model of working
on behalf of a man that works so well quite often for women.
Yet she didn't upset anybody.
There wasn't really any opposition to her authority.
So she must have walked that type rate really well,
which must tell us something about her skills
and her personality and her ability.
Yes, because, like you say,
is a precarious world. I mean, we do see queens and noble women exercising power far more than we
might assume. But as you say, that is often in a co-rulorship or in a partnership with another man.
And I think there's some really interesting examples of women ruling independently around
Beringaria as well. I mean, her sister, Blanche, becomes a countess of champagne. She's actually
also another example of a widow
who ends up ruling quite well
by herself. In Blanche's case,
she's ruling on behalf of her
Myla's son, Fieuble, who later becomes
Count of Champagne. But the two
women together, we see them pop up
very often in the
1210s and 1220s
being politically active
sole women. And
I think, again, Berengarian
navigates this well because
we can see this in some of the language she used
in her documents. You know, she presents as
as humble, she presents herself as modest, you know, and some of that is tropes that women do play on
in order to get what they need from whoever they're petitioning. But Berengaria is politically
astute and again, it's just such a shame we don't see more of that from her time as Queen Consor
because, yes, she gets into actually local disputes with the clergy more often, the Bishop
Maurice of Le Mans in particular. She is in a few disputes with him and the cathedral.
but it's really evident that therefore she is as you say navigating that type rope between
knowing what her power is the extent of her power and she's not afraid to push that and exert
that and be like look this is my domain this is the revenue's mode this is where the extent of my power is
she's not going to be pushed backwards by local nobility or ecclesiastical figures
but equally she's not power hungry she's not going into scan
to try and get what she needs and indeed what she deserves and what she wants.
And I think we can see a real tenacity as well about her, you know, a real stubbornness
because as I mentioned, she carries on petitioning John and Henry III for her revenues
she should have had as Queen of England, her dower, throughout her career.
And I think that in itself is testament to what she was like as a person,
the fact that she never gives up.
and I think that's why I was so drawn to her
and writing about her as a figure
because she is stubborn.
She is someone you can look at
who sticks it out through thick and thin in the way
to try and get what she wants
and she does get there in the end.
So I think she's someone who we ought to pay more attention to
because all right she's not someone with all the power
but she's still someone we can look at
as someone who continues to survive and thrive.
Absolutely.
Before we finish, I need to address one thing.
Did Berengaria ever come to England?
She did, yes.
So she comes to England in 1220
for the translation of Thomas Beckett's Bones
in Canterbury Cathedral.
So we have evidence that she actually attends the translation.
And we've also got further evidence
that she was at Westminster,
likely for a meeting with either Henry III
or Peter de Roche, Henry's Justiciar.
to talk about her Dower agreement as well
because we've got later letters that correspond to that,
those discussions as well.
So, yeah, she does make it here in 1220.
So, yeah, does visit the country she was queen of, after all.
Yeah, so we can say she never came to England as queen,
but we can't say she never came to England.
Yeah, pretty much.
It's always that little bit of nuance, you know,
when it's coming down.
So no, never comes here while she's married to Richard,
while she's queen consort.
As a widow, as Lord of Le Mans, as Daulde Queen, she's very much present here in 12th, 20.
And just to end on, how do you think we should remember Beringaria?
I think I've been quite impressed by someone who has managed to wield female power at a time
and in a place when that was difficult to do, and we've seen other people fail to be able to do it.
And I feel like it's a shame that we've sort of forgotten her, and we don't think about her after her husband's death.
But how do you think we should remember her?
I think we should think about her, again, not to be disservice to the fact that she was queen,
but we remember her as Lord of Lamont.
Again, she's got this fantastic local memory of her activity there.
And I think if we're going to think about her in terms of her power,
in terms of her being an independent female ruler,
that's where we need to think about her as a noble woman who does have power,
who does exercise power, and think about it.
in that respect that she was someone who perhaps got drawn more to our attention because she was
a queen of England, but it's her later life, her power as a widow power in later life that's
more important. But in terms of, again, thinking about her personally, I think we need to remember
her as a woman who survives, a woman who continues to exist, who continues to be stubborn,
who continues to fight. And I think that.
does succeed. I think in a way, Berengaria is someone who's been neglected. You know, we've often
seen the words cast on her as a shadow or a forgotten queen and so on. And I think she deserves
to be remembered as more than that. She is a success. She does have power. She does endure. And I
think her story needs to be known more than outside of Le Mans and more than outside of her connection
with Richard because actually her connection with Richard only ends up being beneficial to her
in terms of she was meant to have some revenue as Queen of England, which she then exchanges
with the King of France in order to get Le Mans. That's the only real way that Richard's partnership
seems to have benefited her because it certainly doesn't whilst she's meant to be Queen
consult whilst Richard's alive. So yeah, I think she needs to be remembered as a powerful.
woman in her own right who shows that stubbornness and a bit of tenacity can get you
somewhere. I'm definitely imagining her face palming if she was ever to realise how we remember
her now and thinking of all the things that I did, you take this tiny little bit of my life
and you forget about all the great stuff that I did and you just focus on that little bit where
I didn't do very much. Who knows? Maybe she did do something and again, it's just not survived.
but I think because people love Richard, don't they?
Or at least Richard is a figure, people will either love or hate.
He's a famous figure.
And the Third Crusade, again, is something very famous,
something that sticks in people's minds.
So you kind of want to think, well, he was married.
What about his queen?
And then you look at the records,
and there's just so little to give us there.
So I think that's why people have stuck to her,
because she's central to a really important figure
on a really important event and it just so happens that we've got very little to talk about
with her for those periods other than what the chroniclers rarely provide.
Well, she will be in the shadows no longer thanks to your fantastic new biography.
Thank you.
Which everyone must go out and read and learn far more about the fascinating Bering area of Le Mans.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for a fascinating discussion about her, Gabby.
It's been absolutely brilliant.
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