Gone Medieval - Roger Mortimer: The Usurper

Episode Date: March 14, 2025

Roger Mortimer: The Man Who Overthrew a King.Matt Lewis delves into the life of Roger Mortimer, a key figure in the downfall of King Edward II. Joined by historian Paul Dryburgh, they explore Mortimer's military and political career, his strategic marriage and his crucial role alongside Queen Isabella. From Mortimer's storied escape from the Tower of London to his ascent to power and ultimate execution, this is an examination the complexities and legacy of one of medieval England's most fascinating figures.Gone Medieval is presented by Matt Lewis and Dr.Eleanor Janega. Lines performed by Enzo Cilenti and Daniel Evans. Audio editor is Amy Haddow, the producers are Joseph Knight and Rob Weinberg. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff.All music used is courtesy of Epidemic Sounds.Gone Medieval is a History Hit podcast.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener survey here: https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From long-loss Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr. Eleanor Jarniger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life, only on history hit. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries

with a brand-new release every week exploring everything from the ancient world. to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, I'm Matt Lewis. Welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We've got the most intriguing mysteries, the gobsmacking details and latest groundbreaking research from the Vikings to the printing press, from kings to popes to the crusades. We cross centuries and continents to delve into rebellions, billions, plots and murders to find the stories big and small that tell us how we got here.

Find out who we really were. We've gone medieval. We left Isabella and her plans in France at the court of her brother the king. By her side is Roger Mortimer, a figure who must now be dragged into the light. His family have forged their authority on the lawless Welsh borders, the marches, where their word carried more weight than that of the king. That region breeds men strong, proud and independent of mind. Roger hates Hugh Dispenser, and that puts him at odds with the king,

who will not be robbed of another favourite. Why do they hate each other? We shall find out soon enough. Roger has escaped imprisonment in the tower and joined his list of grievances to those of the queen. His hard edge will sharpen the Queen's determination. She may have a way back to Edward, but the path of compromise is not one that Roger knows or cares to walk.

You can almost hear his crowing pride at his victory. The prince I rule. The queen do I command. The proudest Lord salute me as I pass. I seal. I cancel. I do what I will. feared am I more than loved

let me be feared and when I frown make all the court look pain the queen and Mortimer shall rule the realm the king and none rule us Pride is so often followed by a fall the story of how Roger Mortimer from the edge of England clawed his way to such heights

is a fascinating one Gone Medieval's four-part special on the family feud that almost destroyed the Plantagenetian The The continues now with the story of Roger Mortimer. If you've listened to the previous episodes, you'll know we've considered the roles of Edward II and Isabella of France in the crisis. If you haven't listened to them, they're in our catalogue for you to go and look out now. Roger is the third piece of this jigsaw. He offers Isabella something she didn't have, perhaps in more ways than one. I'm delighted to be joined today by Paul Drybrough, who is Principal Records Specialist at the National Archives and also president of the Mortimer.

History Society. Welcome to God Medieval, Paul. It's fantastic to have you with us. Great. So have your invite. I'm lovely. I mean, who better to talk about as well than Roger Mortimer? There is so much to say about this medieval man. I thought we could start with a little bit of an overview of him. He's quite often cast as this dastardly stepfather figure in English medieval history. Do you think that's broadly true? Is that fair? I mean, it literally is what, let's say three years of his life? Where that is? is that accusation you could level at the man. I mean, obviously he's born in the, sort of around 1287, until 1321, 2.

He is one of the most loyal servants of both the first, never at the second. He had a, well, let's face it, by contemporary standards, a relatively stellar military career, administering Ireland successfully, holding off a Scottish invasion there, being an important figure in the marches of Wales, obviously related to an important local march family there, and being, you know, as a contemporary of ever the second particular, about similar age, tending him at coronations, supporting Edward during the troublesome early years of his reign, which we'll probably come on to with the crisis around Pierce Gabbaston.

And it's only really until the civil war from around 1321, too, and the aftermath of that where he's pushed into rebellion, and then rebellion ultimately becomes escape from the tower after imprisonment. He then leaves an invasion of England, with Queen Isabella, they have, potentially have a relationship, and that leads them, Roger, for three years to be kind of the leading male figure in the country. Even many contemporaries say, acting as if he were king, being above the king, the teenager up of the third.

Yeah, there's some juicy stuff in there that I can't wait to get further into as we go through. And I guess all of that sort of makes it surprising the significant role that he will play in English dynastic history, given that he, for much of his career, is utterly loyal. and also a relatively unimportant regional magnate. That's probably fair. I mean, obviously, they are a high-ranking, berno family. The Mortimus of Wingmore are related to the royal family, slightly more distantly than others of the magnet community.

But then, yeah, they're not one of the earls, the Commodal families, until 1328, when Roger himself, basically, in Nuffles himself. I mean, they are their middle-ranking aristocracy, I'd say, with, as you say, regional interests, a lot of Rogers' early life until he's, let's say,

mid-30s, he's actually spent outside of England, away from court. Yeah, yeah. And do we get a sense from the sources of what kind of character he had and, you know, how much is that influenced by the experiences of his later life when he becomes deeply unpopular?

Yeah, I mean, I guess, most of the character portraits come from the years, let's say, 1326 to 1330. Oh, I certainly relate to those years. And so they are written almost exclusively with hindsight by chroniclers who are looking back on an era of turmoil, civil war, and, you know, the young king who would then ultimately become arguably England's most successful medieval king. Those years, they had to explain away. How could this, you know, this great man had this horrible sort of upbringing and this terrible individual who, you know, behaved arrogantly, he was acquisitive, violent, potentially, you know, stepped over individuals. Had members of the Royal Family executed,

if we take some of the accusations related to, let's say, the Earl of Kent's execution in 1330, literally. So, you know, most of the character portrays you get of the man come accoloured by the period of the minority. Before then, really, the main character portraits you get will be in need, the Chronicle, produced a Wigmore, Wigmore Abbey, the family of Abbey, in the late 14th century, where of course it's a much more positive. There's a lot more airbrushing of the 13, 27 to 30 period that was sort of more national base chronicles or monastic ones in Lasthan Orban's or where I'm. Yeah, we'll just skip over this bit that doesn't quite fit with what we're trying to say about

the Mortimer family. Yeah, that's kind of what goes on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I guess if we go back to the beginning and we strip away some of that hindsight, what do we know about Roger's early life? Where is he born? What family is he born into? How is he raised?

Okay, well, I mean, the Mortimer family of Wigmore had been barons on the marchers of Wales, Herefordshire, since Doomsday, really. They're a Doomsday family. They come from Normandy, not with the Conqueror directly, but they come in the wave after the initial conquest. And for basically, what, 200 years, it's an unsettled, unsecure inheritance on the marches. Obviously, they have the estates in Wigmore. They have some estates elsewhere in England, Berkshire, Hampshire, some in Yorkshire and Lincoln. But it's really, as most of the marcher families were in those 200 years, it's establishing their right to their territories and their lordship through conquest and then holding off either other marcher rivals or Welsh princes, Welsh lords

who are contesting that area sort of from what is now flincher all the way around in an arc going round to Pembrokeshire and West Wales. Yeah, I think when I talk about the marches to listeners, I always try and frame it as this almost like a medieval English wild west. It breeds a certain type of hard man who considers himself slightly outside the law that they have more control there, that they're not as touchable by the king as many other people. So it breeds a certain mindset in that area, doesn't it? Yeah.

And of course, they hold their land technically by right, but they claim by right of conquest. And so these martial law chives that are carved out are held as what's known as liberties, you know, the king's writ in theory doesn't run. And so the king's sheriff can't go into the liberties of, the Adidasia or whatever it might be, the Mortimerous Hald, and, you know, just have free reign. Because the Lord is Lord there, you know, it's not the king. Yeah.

When Roger becomes an adult, how significant is his marriage to Joan de John Ville in terms of his rise to a more noble and more landed? status. Yeah, that's a very good question. I mean, the Mortimer's doing okay. They're doing well. I mean, so Roger Mortimer's grandfather, who dies in 1282. He is one of the chief architects of the downfall of the Simon de Montfort, the Barron's in the Barron's War of the 1260s. He's one of the first best friends. He's rewarded richly from that with extra estates on the marches, particularly in Shropshire. As Roger's becoming, sorry, he's becoming a teenager,

Edmund is able to acquire the marriage of Joan. So Joan is the granddaughter of Geoffrey de Jouin de Jouin. One of these great figures of the 13th century come over from France, being one of Henry III and Edward I'm leading courtiers, leading military lieutenants. Jeffrey, for example, he's just this year of Ireland for quite a long time. And he even, he actually dies there ultimately. So Joan brings half of the Delacey inheritance, which is one of these great sort of transnational inheritances

going back the 12th century. And she brings him Lovelow, for example, in the interoper, Stanton Lacey and other places, but also half of the Liberty of Meath, or the County Meath and Ireland. So I sent it around Trim, which is this great, if anybody's ever been there, it's a great medieval castle.

It's one of the most fertile, wealthy parts of Ireland, so it's worth fighting for. This kind of transforms the Mortimus from this sort of relatively provincial, well-to-do baronial family into this now transnational family which can compete

with other comadal families. Yeah, so this marriage sort of puts them on the cusp of the next step. And actually, in terms of marriage, because it's really good for the family because Joan and Roger have at least 12 children. They have a good number

of sons, good number of daughters. So Roger, later on in life, we won't come back to this. Roger was able to marry most of his children when he attains a level. of power that he didn't have before into some of the leading families of England and the British Isles. He really transforms what the Mortimer line was then to become. Yeah. And you mentioned that they're already fairly significant in Wales. They've become significant now in Ireland. To what extent do experiences in Ireland and Wales influence,

Roger, as he's kind of cutting his teeth militarily? How active is he in those regions? Oh, I think this is the key things. Obviously, until 1308 he is basically on the marches in England. I'm assuming he learns an awful lot from his uncle. So his uncle, confusingly also called Roger. Yeah, because the Mortimus have that annoying naming habit, don't they, of switching Edmund? Roger Edmund, Roger Edmund, Roger Edmund, yeah. So Roger Lord of Chirk, he is the younger brother of Edmund, father of.

Roger we're talking about. So he's Roger Mortimer's uncle. He is given the Lordship of Chirk, which is how they're differentiated, Roger Malta of Chirke and Brooker Walter of Wigmore. And Roger is this, Roger Maltaire of Chirk is a really hard-bitten, he's sort of a marcher hard man. He's been conditioned by the Welsh Wars in the 1270s and the 1270s, he had an important role there.

By the early 14th century, he is kind of the king's lieutenant in the marches of Wales, in Wales itself. So he knows exactly how marcher warfare, holding that balance between military action, political patronage, but also the legal structures of the March of Wales, how to manipulate that. So I'm assuming that Roger, we don't know, he may well have grown up in his uncle's household possibly,

and he would have learned an awful lot from that. So from 1308 then until 1320, really, Roger then spends an awful lot of time, Roger Walter Wiltsbury, we've been, an awful lot of time in Ireland. firstly obviously he has to establish his his lordship over trim which is you know it's it's settled but on the margins island again is another one of those countries where because there are multiple cultures and butting up against each other there's obviously the the native community in ireland there's the settler community

which has been expanding and then sort of you know competing since the late 12th century and then there's the kind of the english of island who are you know they represent the government the senior aristocrats. So in Trim itself, the frontiers are, you know, slightly poor as they've on the margins. On the margins, it's not secure. He has to take a lot of military action there over a dozen years he's there. He also has lordship over a place called Dunham Ace, which is sort of west of Dublin, which is much less secure. So he has to negotiate relationships with a variety of different people, includes stuff from the Crown, the Dublin government, his local tenants in Trem and Dunham-Ais, those rival figures on the margins of his authority who are potentially going to bring fire

and sort to some of his lands, and also those other sort of lords of what they call the Anglo-Irish community, those lords who are English by ethnicity that have born brought up in the Irish context. By the time you get to 1320, he's had one of the most multifaceted experiences that any of his peers would ever have had. Probably the most diverse experience in a way because he's had to deal with lordship across three or four different jurisdictions with three or four different types of law

that you've got to navigate. You've got competing forces. You've got allies that change and shift. You've got two different governments. You've got government at a remove. You've got your relationship with the Crown. In Westminster, it's very complicated, but also very few people

would have had that experience. And on a personal level, of course, we don't know for sure, but we can estimate that probably, you know, a good half to a quarter to a third of his children, 12 children were born in Ireland. He's setting roots there as well as,

and obviously, you know, he doesn't spend all of his time there. It's constantly going back and forward. And after 1320, he never sets up an island again for a variety of reasons. But he's one of the few people, by the time you get to the late 13th,

early 14th century, a few people from England are at his, level of society who's spending any time in Ireland at all and actually making a considered effort to defend his territory and also to defend the Lordship. So in 1315, the Scots, as part of their campaign for recognition of Scottish independence after English defeat at Bannockburn and to the recognition of Robert Bruce as King, they invade Ireland. Now, some people have argued this is a diversionary tactic to take English resources away from the Scottish marches.

other people have seen this as an attempt to kind of well conquer conquer island for the Scots and to bring the Celtic fringe so to speak together I mean Edward Bruce who's the surviving brother Robert Bruce he proclaims himself King he's crowned in May 1315 we think and over the next three years there is a Scottish presence in Ireland and at least twice during raids

from their Ulster base into you know deep into Ireland they are able to stop hold court plunder trim, which is the centre of Autumnma's Lordship in Ireland. So in 1315, Roger is either there. He goes over there with a decent military force of his tenants. He's actually defeated for the first time. This is kind of a forgotten defeat because you think, well, later on, he actually is really well.

In a place called Kells in Meath in December 1315, he kind of flees Ireland at that point, goes back to England as part of the negotiations are part of his place at court and then sort of court shenanigans. In November 1316, he's then nominated to be the King's Lieutenant in Ireland and he arrives the following Easter, spending 18 months there dealing with the fallout from the Scots failed attempt to take Dublin and to raid more deeply into Ireland, but then also restoring order and bringing Ireland back to loyalty to the English crown, which is no easy effort and it required not simply military.

force, but also sort of a keen eyes to what patronage, how patronage should be dispensed, how the law should be used to bring various gangs of local lineages, and particularly in southwest of Ireland, back to some kind of loyalty to the crown. So he's a man conditioned, really, I think, if you only think of Roger Malta for the minority of Pepper III, you're missing an awful lot, and you're missing an awful lot of importance to how the politics, and the military and cultural situation of the British Isles plays out in, let's say, the 20 years from middle of the 1290s all the way through to about 1320. Yeah.

So many rabbit holes you could dive down, isn't there in Roger's story? I know. But I wonder if we could just think about what all of this means for his English experiences in the 1310. So he's spending a lot of time out of England. He's at least nominally loyal to Edward II. Is he slightly removed from all of the stuff that goes on around Gaveston and Edward's increasing unpopularity? Is he able to distance himself from all of that?

Interesting question. I mean, I've, because I was obviously doing my research on Roger Mortimer the first time, I noticed there is actually quite a close relationship between Mortimer and Gavastor. And so in 306, for example, well, sorry, before I should go back before then, and she appears Gaveston owns Roger Mortimer's marriage. So for a while he has his marriage and he has custody of his lands in the thing. So Edmund died in 1304 until 307 until Roger is able to buy his way out of Pierce Gaveston's custody. Gaveston is technically,

Walter is technically Gaveston's ward. After that, so whenever the second comes to the throne and Gaveston starts to, you know, peacock around and take all the attention at court, Roger is kind of conspicuously loyal. You know, he's getting rewards at the time that Gavison is getting rewards, they were before, actually,

before Ebert I was first dies and Ebert Sain comes to the throne. Both men were actually for actually forfeited by Ebert I first for leaving a tournament in Scotland to go together with another group of younger men to the near consonant for another tournament. So I think they are, although I think Gavison's

that's slightly bit older again, because he's often seen his slightly older brothers to Ebert the Scenti's again, slightly older than Roger again, about 10 years older maybe. But they seem to have been relatively close obviously from 1308 when Maltabury is less often at court, less often in the kingdom, and you get the attempts to constrain Edmund and Gaviston

through things like the ordinances. You rarely see Roger around. He barely has an obvious place either with the court or with the ordained. It's not one of the ordainers. He sticks away from that. He keeps aloof, really, as far as I can tell. 1312, I think, I'm fairly sure he's out of the country. So when Gaveston is captured and executed.

he's out of the country, that he's in Ireland, I think. There are some, it's very difficult to tell often because the sources which often are used

to locate an individual at any one time aren't, as you know, they're all really pity. You know, we don't get, with the exception of the king or the queen, maybe,

we don't get reliable itineries even for the, you know, the leading members of society, really. So it's very difficult to place him there. But there is at least a sense

that he's able to disconnect himself from the trouble. He's not having to pick aside, I guess is the important thing for him. Even if he's friendly with Gaveston, he's not having to side with Gaveston and the king or side with the ordainers.

He's able to remove himself and sit back and let it all play out around him. We know afterwards that there is no stain on his loyalty. Edward doesn't punish Mortimer after Gavison's death. You know, when there are key national moments, he is one of the people who is around the king and he's brought in for, I'm guessing, his experience and, you know,

And his seniority is experience and his knowledge. Yeah. And I guess given then all of that background, how and when does he begin to fall out with Edward? So, well, I mean, this is going back now, so after the Scots eventually defeated in 1318, in October 1318, through, you know, an army of men that Mortimerick often brought to either,

in many cases, or I'd worked closely with, he then comes back. He's part of the negotiations for what's called the Treaty of Leak, which is where Edward and Thomas of Lancaster, his main baronial opponent kind of do a kiss of peace. They agree. They're all going to work together. It's all great.

And then Mortimer himself becomes part of the council, the sitting council, which advises Edward from that point on. 1319, however, as part of that council, he snares himself the chief governorship of Ireland again. So for about 18 months, 1319, 13, 20, he's out of the country again governing Ireland, doing a lot of, you know, what I think we're perceived at the time to be good things for the order

and Ireland's loyalty connection to England. It's only when, sort of, towards the end of 1320, that the marcher lords get a wind of the ambitions in the marches themselves, as well as nationally, of Hugh Dispenser, father and son, that they start to think, hang on, what's going on here? We need to knit this in the bud. And by the time you get to late Easter 1321,

there's a full-blown civil war in the offing and a group of marcher lords basically gather together, I'm assuming swear some kind of oath of confraternity in this, and then basically go and destroy dispensers estates in the marches and further afield, bringing them then into direct conflict with the crown. But of course they're doing this under royal banners because the line they take is that, well, you know, we're not dislawed to Edward. We're trying to remove those evil counsellors from his side.

So it's interesting, I think, that for all of those many, many years of experiences everywhere else of increasing influence and loyalty to the crown and keeping out of all of the problems, it's a threat to his marcher heartlands that really drags Roger into protecting that, which means opposing Hugh Dispenser, which means opposing Edward the second. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that is the thing. And of course, then over the next, what, nine months throughout the rest of 1321, on early, into early 1322. Effectively, it's a full-blown civil war. There are standoffs. There are moments when, for example, you know, Edward the second and his queen besiege leads castle in Kent,

where the wife of a chap called Balfourlemie Battlesmeer, who's now one of their grouping against the king, there's a siege going on, and the mortimers decide that they are going to start attacking royal towns along the Seven Valley, because they're all sort of, they're lined up on one side

of the seven. Edward and his royal forces are sort of the other side, they're in the south and east, and they decide, eventually leaves the siege of Leeds, goes up towards the marches to, basically head them off, and the Mortimer's and others

kind of harry them on the other side of the seven. There's no actual pitch battle, but, you know, the rebels, so to speak, do a lot of damage to royal towns, which, of course, then brings them directly. They are technically, I think, committing treason,

And by the time you get to the early stages of 1322, somebody somewhere has a word with the Mortimer's and goes, right, lads, this is getting dangerous now. You're in big trouble here. Maybe they decided themselves, but they are brought to the negotiating table. Unlike some of the other leaders of the baronial rebellion, so Thomas L of Lancaster,

Humphrey de Boonell of Hereford, who they were very closely with, they kind of continue the fight, whereas the Mortimer's surrender. We don't know on what terms they surrender. They surrender at Shrewsbury in early January 13, 22. It's possible that they submitted in the hope that Ed would show them mercy, or it's possible that the negotiators for the king basically said,

well, you know, we will show you leniency, come back, submit, and we will negotiate on your behalf with the Crown. Of course, what actually happened was they did submit, and they were basically carted off to the tower, both uncle and nephew. we're not sure what happened to the sons immediately, but Roger's sons appear then to have been taken into captivity and taken south versus Odeum, then to Windsor, and I think to the tower ultimately.

His daughters and his wife were rounded up. Over the next year or so, they were sent to various places. The daughters were sent to nunneries across England. They didn't suffer execution in a way that a lot of the male rebels did. Many, many of the contrarians, as they were called, were executed in very public executions, their bodies were left hanging for, you know, months as a warning to others about rebelling against this new Ebert II, so to speak, the new man,

Edna but the Mortimer was just languished in prison. But in July 1322, they were brought before a tribunal, they were tried, and they were condemned to death. But despite the pleas from the community of Wales, who, you know, wanted the harsher punishment to be enacted, Edward, for some reason, and I can only assume it must be because of both Mortimer's careers of loyal service to him, he commuted the sentence to life imprisonment. Now, Roger Mortimer, the uncle, he dies in, we think, well, 1326 in the Tower at age 70. He never lives to see what his nephew would go on to achieve. But of course, infamously, we get to the August 1st, 1323. and Roger Mortimer is one of the few men to escape from the medieval Tower of London

and that changes everything completely. Yeah, he gets his own little 18-style story of escaping from the Tower of London. Can he give us a quick overview of how he gets out? Do we know how he escaped? Yeah, I mean, there are various different accounts which Laura Tompkins are just actually kind of brought together in our new book, The Mortimer's of Wigmore, The Delistive Destiny. Buying all your good bookshops.

So I'm not apparently not allowed that plug. Yeah, absolutely allowed that plug. If you don't make it, I will. Very good. Well, okay, right, in that case. So, yeah, effectively, he appears to have a man on the inside and men on the outside. There is a plot. It's not simply an internal plot, it's an external plot. It appears that Edward changes his mind again. So a year after commuting the sentence, Edward makes it known that he's going to execute Roger. We don't know why. We think it's because there are a variety of

other conspiracies at large out in the country. There are several royal castles, for example, where prisoners are either temporary release, people get in, they're able to temporary release prisoners, there are, again, conspiracies to free leading contrarians, and of course, Mortimer is the leading one, the leading survivor at this stage. So, Edward must think, well, get rid of him, that gets rid of the problem.

But he has a chap on the insider chap called Gerald Olspafe, who appears to drug the guards, who drug Mortimer's guards and the constable at this feast. Some accounts say the drug that he gives them are so strong that they're basically knocked out, for two days. And the constable to tell Stephen Seagrave, Edward wants to kind of prosecute him afterwards, but actually realise he's just too ill. The story that they're telling must be genuine. He must be that, you know, that seriously

ill. So, effectively, what happens is all the guards are having a feast for the feast of St. Peter in chains, and they all have this drink, whenever it might be, the food's drunk. They're all cathartonic, and Gerald eventually somehow gets mortimer out of his cell, either by pricing away at the bars or there's a hole. The towers in terrible set of repair. There are holes in the wall everywhere. So he appears to have got out, got out of the outside, got out of his room, possibly through the kitchens,

into the outer bailey, broke ladder, which again smuggled into him in a bailey, then some out of the outer bailey. There's a boat waiting for him on the Thames. That rose him a few miles. Horses then, you know, a very quick ride to, we think, Portsmouth may be, where another boat is waiting for him,

and that then spirits him away to the continent before. Everybody's even noticed because Edward's in the north. He's not in London. So before a search is really initiated, there's already several doses gone past, and he's already on the continent by that point. And this puts him in France and puts him into the company now of Edwards, now disaffected Queen Isabella of France. I guess the one thing we probably ought to just get out the way to begin with. Do you think they were ever lovers? And if so, when did that begin? Right. Well, the answer is yes, I do. But just to sort of go back slightly, obviously, when he's over there, Isabella doesn't really go to France for another year, or 18 months, because she herself is kind of becomes a problem at court in the anti-French sentiment in England, and eventually she loses a household, she loses a dams and that kind of thing. However, Edward and Isabella don't break up their relationship.

Isabella is sent to France as kind of an envoy, a peace envoy with her brother to negotiate over Edward's homage to the French king and sort of peace in the south-west of France. Late in 1325, then her son is also sent over to actually do the homage. Now, at no point before them, so before September 25, do we think that Roger and Isabel are actually coming to contact? They know each other, they will have known each other. They would have been in contact with each other during their earlier lives at court.

But there's no real sense they ever really knew each other. The first inkling really that anything is possibly going on is I think in about February 1326 when Edward writes to Isabella and to Prince Edward his son to say, well, I understand that, you know, you're now taking the Council of Mortimer. And he talks about their relationship being, quote, in-house and out of house. So Edward is, I think, quite early has been told there's something going on or he's willing to make people believe there's something going on. I mean, other historians, I respect their views on this.

There is no actual solid piece of evidence to suggest that they definitely were in a sexual relationship. But I think circumstantial, which I know you can't use as conclusive, I'm all over that, it's fine, don't worry about that. Circumstantial over, just the fact that it would make sense, certainly after 1327, that their closeness after 1327, when they are almost constantly together except at key moments. And Joan is nowhere to be seen, Joan Broder's wife. It stretches credulity for me that they didn't have some kind of relationship. Whether it lasted or whether they were just, you know, they became this sort of political partnership. I don't know. But I do err on the side that they were in a relationship.

And that, you know, the propaganda is just that. It is propaganda. But to have any kind of impact, there must be great. There must be believable. Yeah. Having said that, of course, there are also the, accusations, the widespread accusations of Sodomy against Edward, the dispensers, which, you know, are less believable. So, but they're probably right at the same time. So, you know, we've got to caveat

them all, so. Yeah, yeah. So how then, once Isabella and Mortimer become politically allied, even if we set aside the physical relationship that they may have had, at what point do they decide to invade England? And how much should we see Mortimer behind that or Isabella? I think it's a combination of both. I mean, obviously they are, they've been at the French court, they're obviously looking for allies, they're gathering a sort of an army of exiles, you know, disaffected individuals fleeing England, gathering around them. Of course, once they've got the heir to the throne, then any campaign is not technically, you know,

it's why nobody ever talks to 1326 as an invasion. I mean, it is. I mean, I don't understand why people don't speak of 1326 as a successful invasion. Because it is a force of predominantly non-English people coming over. They are, gather this force of German mercenaries, men from Eno, who is the county in the low countries, to whom the third is eventually married into. There's talk of them, the scandal of their relationship and what they're planning, being too much for Charles VIII, Isabella's brother.

They are forced out of Paris, and they then go to Eano, where they come up with this marriage alliance, and in return for which the countervano puts his military forces, his Navy at their disposal. Now, presumably throughout all of this, Mortimer and others have got contacts in England saying, well, how's the land lying? Edward is constantly putting out orders, asking sheriffs and coastal watches to look out for, you know, suspicious correspondence, looking out for boats coming or, you know, at one point, you know, ships are spotted in the channel. there's all these invasion scares.

Edward is fairly sure what's going to happen from quite an early stage, sort of the summer of 1326. And obviously there is, I think it's fairly last-minute decision, obviously, to invade, because you've got to gather your ships together, and you've got to wait for the right wind, you've got to wait for the right moment. And then they sort of set sail around the 22nd, 23rd of September from Doordrecht, and they land sort of in Suffolk

at the Orwell Estuary on the 24th. And it's a bloodless coup, effectively. There's never a battle, fought over the next, what, two months. Edward initially tries to establish some kind of military resistance. You know, a razor called out. Men are paid to raise forces. There are musters called.

But ultimately, these musters peter out. Nobody turns up, with the exception of a very small number of people. Edward, the Spencer and the Spencer's flee west. Where they're going, we're not sure. Obviously, they could have been fleeing to Wales, where obviously, Edwards has got Prince of Wales has got reservoirs of personal support. They could have been heading for Ireland, ultimately,

potentially to try and raise forces there, but they don't make it, obviously. They send Hugh Dispenser to Bristol to look after Bristol because it's a key port, but they might want to bring reinforcements in. They bought ship at Jepster around the 20th of October of 1326, but it's blown ashore near Cardiff five days later.

And they're then a very small band of King, Spencer, a couple of others. I left wandering, South Wales. They get to Neath Abbey. The chancery rolls are left there, a lot of treasures left there in Swansea, and they're eventually, you know, captured, betrayed and captured on a Welsh hillside in the middle of November, whereas Mortimer and Isabella have literally spent two months on, it's a brilliant campaign, both a propaganda against the dispensers, but also getting the country into a state in which it's going to accept a new regime.

So they are, you know, they're replacing royal officials. They are targeting dispenser deposits in monastic houses. They're gathering treasurer as they go around the country. They're bringing people who they might suspect of being loyal to Edward on board with them. You know, they are granting offices, lands, commissions, custodies of defeated royalists to, you know, what you've like sort of wavering earls to bring them on side. I mean, one example is about the Earl Waren. I mean, the Earl will wren, we could have a podcast of the Earl will ren.

I mean, he's literally the greatest survivor in medieval history, I'd say, is one of them. You know, he survives three kings, no end of like shenanigans here. He's amazing, but again, he makes sure he's on the right side of the right time. And so, sort of for that two months periods between September and the capture of the king, there are, you know, two rival courts, technically, but the one with the actual power is the one which focuses on the queen. They know exactly what they're doing. They've got a really good plan.

Things appear not to go wrong. They're lucky that, you know, Edward flees. He can't put up resistance because nobody comes out for it. The people he thought were loyal, turn out. In some cases, are actually men with connections to some ultimate, for example. So Edward at the end is just desperate. The balance totally swings very, very quickly and without almost any blood being spilled at all. Yeah.

I've wondered how much of the idea of actually deposing Edward comes from Roger Rod than Isabella because she's very clear that she kind of wants rid of Hugh Dispenser more than anything else. He is the straw that has broken the camel's back. He's personally abhorrent to her. Roger is in a position where having escaped the Tower of London as a condemned traitor,

if all he does is remove the dispensers and help restore Edward to power, he's still kind of condemned to death. So is he the one with the vested interest in really deposing Edward more than Isabella? Yeah, and it's interesting, but he would be, yeah, but obviously there are many. the other people with the similar vested interest.

Technically, if you restore the king to his authority, you are risking that he actually regains power as years in 1322 and everything goes wrong again. I think really, Edward's reaction to being brought to heal probably seals his fate. He doesn't want to play ball. He stands on his regality.

There are a variety of meetings in very late 1326, I think, and they obviously decide the community of earls and barons together decide that unprecedented though this is, we are going to have to take the step. We are going to have to try and remove the king, but not his line.

So obviously we've got Edward. We want Edward to be king because, you know, Edward is this bright new thing. You know, he's not necessarily like presumably. He was showing as a young man that he was nothing like his father. And so, obviously, they also knew that, you know, until he was going to be 1821, he wouldn't have it. He wouldn't technically have royal power. So obviously there are a variety of charging.

has brought the parliament, well, they have a parliament that's going to meet in January. But before then, there is this sort of propaganda of publicity campaign in London. Everybody swears an oath of loyalty to the potential new king, to the queen and their cause. Edwin, I think he's basically offered. You know, you either abdicate or we're going to depose you. And if we depose you, we're not going to have your son as king. It's kind of the threat. Now, what that would have meant, of course, I don't know, because obviously,

you know, Edward's half-brothera, Thomas of Brotherton, is one of the party around the queen. Is he the next heir? I don't know. I mean, he would technically, he would be the air after, well, he wouldn't actually, John of Eltham would have been the next heir as well. But then he's also Edward's brother, so he's Edward's second son as well. So he's taking Edward's line away, you could technically, I suppose, Thomas of Brotherton might have been a choice, but he doesn't come across as any kind of entity, really, ultimately. So I think they decide that this is what they're going to do, they kind of, I don't know, it's one of those, I don't know, how would you say it? Everybody swept along with it, with the exception of a couple of people. So

the Archbishop William Melton and Harma, High Bishop of Rochester, they are, they're not having it. They stay away. They will not swear an oath. I mean, William Melton, of course, is one of Edward's childhood, advisors, friends. He is one of the most loyal men to Edward that he found. And they weren't going to have this. But ultimately, Parliament decides, Parliament decides the size of the department. It's much more complicated in the process, and we can talk about here. But it's, you know, by the 20th of January, Edward, Edward is basically forced into a corner. He's at Kenilworth

in prison and he basically says, okay, look, fine. I will, I want my son to be king. And so within, you know, within 10, well, what is it? Within 12 days, Edward is crowned. Is Edward the third? And Edward the second, in theory, goes into this retired king status course, has never happened before. and how that was ever going to be managed, nobody knows, but he becomes like a priest. It's just Isaac Kenilworth, supposedly and stately confinement.

Yeah, yeah. I want to get on to a little bit about Roger's role in the early reign of Edward III. But just to finish off the story of Edward II, how involved should we consider Roger to be in the, I don't know whether we have to say, apparent death of Edward II? Yeah, I mean, this is a really tricky one, because obviously, you know, for much of the last, what, 500 years,

Roger Mortimerie is the architect of Edward II's murder at Berkeley Castle. You know, he is the one who gives the order. Chronicles at the time, say, you know, later chroniclers, you know, kind of give him the responsibility. There are obviously, there are others who actually do the deed, of course, but kind of Rogers, the man behind it. It's only recently, as of course, you know, that variety of historians have basically suggested that this isn't the case that Edward did actually survive, that he lived,

that Edbert III knew that he lived, that they may have met, possibly after his death. But that, of course, would have been, well, some of that would have been after Roger's own execution in 1330, but of course some of it would have been while Roger was still alive. William Melton, who I mentioned earlier, there is a letter which purports to be in his name to the mayor of London, the mayor of London, basically saying,

if this is 1330, we know Edward's still alive. Could you please provide money, boot, shoes, he's in a secure place. And it's difficult. The traditional narrative is now difficult to square with a new evidence. None of which, of course, actually negates the traditional argument. There is obviously only one is correct. You know, he may have been murdered or he wasn't murdered.

But both narratives now have compelling arguments for them, but also questions that neither side can convince answer either way. Until evidence is found, until the actual smoking gun is found, which has not been found yet, your academic historians tend to stick to the traditional narrative because it's kind of the most logical one, whereas obviously the new breed of historians who have researched this in a lot more detail, I will say. They have actually gone into the evidence in a lot more detail. They will not have the traditional narrative now. It can't stand. And nine, never the twain shall meet. And I am a classic fence sitter in this one.

Good for you. You'll be pleased to know. But I guess we have to say, if Edward is executed, Roger has to be behind it. And if he's not executed, then Roger is just neglected to do that. Yeah. Well, or, as has been argued, Roger and Isabella have basically kept him alive as a puppet, as some kind of puppet to keep Aber the Third, his father, in their pocket. Yeah.

Yeah. Why would they keep Edward II alive if it were to flush out rebellion against them as it does with Edmund Earl of Kent, who is Edward II's half-brother and Edward III's half-uncle? Or to, you know, ultimately to keep Edward the third enthrall. You know, we've got your father, Edward. You know, we'll kill him if you don't do what we say, kind of narrative. Yeah, so having used Edward the third against Edward the second to get him to be deposed, it's possible you could use Edward the second against Edward the third to keep him in line, maybe. So, I guess just to finish off our chat about Roger, what does his time as effectively regent, he's close to the role of a regent, I guess. What does that period look like?

Because you mentioned before, he ennobles himself. Yeah. And he doesn't last all that long there. So what does it look like and why does it go wrong? I mean, the kind of the tragedy of it is, is that the campaign that Mortimer and Isabella lead from between 1323 and 30 to 26 can be seen, and we're seen, I think, at the time, as a noble endeavour. You know, they are releasing the country from tyranny. They're bringing the crown back to its natural subjects. But, of course, the worst excesses of the dispenser regime are then exceeded by the regime

of Mortimer and Isabella. So you're right. I mean, he is kind of regent, but that's never a formal tie. The Baltimore is never, like, made keeper of the kingdom. Isabella isn't either, because obviously there is a king. There doesn't need to be. But there is a regency council, kind of, or council, sorry, who are supposed to advise the young king, led by Henriola of Lancaster, who is the brother, the younger brother of Thomas, who is

Edward II's great rival. So it's kind of supposed to be this kind of Lancastrian restoration, if you like. Mortimer is not, as far as we know, ever on that council. And, of course, that leads then contemporaries and subsequent historians to basically argue that both Mortimer and Isabella ran the country outside of this concilia agreement, that they basically had the king in their pocket. They had access to the, you know, the Chancery, the Treasury. They could enrich themselves and their friends.

They were able to negotiate a peace with the Scots, which I think is probably a sensible piece, but Edward III didn't like it at the time. Obviously that enables, you know, Robert Bruce to settle his family as the Royal House of Scotland and resettles. Scotland's independent kingdom. And they basically then just enriched themselves and their friends. I mean, Roger Mortimer, as we said, he isn't an Earl, but he's done enough to become

an Earl, I think, probably, in terms of what he's done for the community in 1327. But it's not until October 1328 that he becomes Earl of March. Now, Earl of March is interesting, because, of course, there is an Earl of March in Scotland, but there's no Earl of March in England. And in Wales, of course, and the Wales and the marches, March has a different connotation. March in Scotland, there are some liberties there, but it's not quite the same. They're not kind of outside of the royal writ in the way that some of the Welsh marcher lordships are. So to be called Earl of March suggests you are attempting to exercise authority over a much wider political, legal and cultural sphere than actually just if you became Earl of Herriford, sorry, or Earl of Gloucester or wherever it might be, Earl of Weigmore.

Yeah, and it's a very amorphous region as well, isn't it? You know, it changes. There's no definition to what the march is. So it's kind of saying, I'm in charge of whatever I can lay claim to there. Exactly. And it's completely therefore, it's a title that the rest of the earls don't want, don't like. Of course, Eber the third eventually is quite happy with it. You know, he actually never abolishes the Elder of March weirdly.

And so, you know, Roger's grandson, who, you know, is one of the great warriors of the 1340s, he's alongside Ebert at Crescent and that kind of thing. The eldom of march is restored to him. It's not, you think most of these elthums you would be attainted, they'd go into abeyance. But actually, you know, Edmund, Roger's son, he dies very early after his father is executed. And then his grandson, you know, they don't suffer the same penalty. Roger, the second Earl, you know, the elder is restored to him. So, Edward III has no issue with the, the oldman eventually.

Yeah. It feels a bit like Roger falls into the same sort of trap of Simon de Montfort of campaigning against corruption and then finding himself in power and suddenly, becoming what he had campaigned against and making himself unpopular. I think so, but of course, Isabella is exactly the same. You know, Isabella is not this background figure offering maternal advice and interceding with the king. She is front and centre.

You know, they are holding a variety of tournaments all around the country. They are, you know, dressing up, potentially, maybe it's Arthur and Grinia, where we're not sure, but they are certainly holding Arthurian tournaments all around the country, including at Wigmore, actually. There is one tournament at Wigmore in 1329 where the Royal Court decants to Wigmore and the king and the earl are exchanging gifts. It's a really interesting vignette into Mortimer's actual personal relationship with the king. You know that this teenage boy is over there in Roger Mortimer's backyard and they're exchanging gifts

and presumably Edward is part of the jousting that goes on there. There aren't that many detailed descriptions of it. but it's a very interesting relationship that Mortimer and Edward must have had. I mean, obviously the Chronicle, Edge Chronicles, they talk about, you know, Mortimer never allowing the boy to have precedence when he should have done, you know,

always rising above him, walking two places ahead of him, speaking when he shouldn't do, speaking for the king, that kind of thing. It's your classic evil counsellor henchman figure that he becomes. But, you know, the official records that we have here at the National Archives, they do give you a very rich picture of the acquisitiveness, the attention Mortimer himself gave to expanding his interests in the areas

where he was already strong. So he's taking, for example, all of the lands of the Earl of Arundel, who's one of his big rivals in the marches of Wales, and getting liberty status for those lands. He has them as the status as Earl in the same way that the Earl of Arundel have them, or examples. So how does Roger end up then executed in 1330? Okay, so October 1330, there's a council meeting, parliament in Nottingham, the Royal Family hold up in Nottingham Castle, which, as you know, has subterranean passages. Now, Edward III, basically advised by a chap called William Montague, decides that, look, this is it, we've got to, you know, I think it's something like, you know, eat the dog or we're

going to be eaten kind of thing. They basically managed to engineer, they get brought up through these subterranean passages into the Queen's Chamber. They bring a surprise on Mortimer and Isabella, who are in the Queen's Chamber, supposedly, with some men having a council meeting, including the Bishop of Lincoln, and they are arrested. Almost immediately, then Mortimer and one of his sons and another man are carted off via Lancasterian lands to London, and they're sent to the Tower of London, and there is accounts from 1332, two years after Mortimer's execution, which showed that there were basically, the cell they were put in, was not only in view from Edwards' private apartments in the tower,

but they were also kind of walled up. They weren't going to escape this. He wasn't going to escape this time. They made a proper effort to ensure that the cell would be secure. So the end of November, basically brought out of the tower to Parliament, tried before a full tribunal of his peers, not given the chance to answer, basically executed for all I think is about a dozen different charges, taken then to Tyburn and hanged as a common criminal. He's not beheaded, not given that the same kind of dignity and execution that Thomas O'Blancas had in 1322, basically going to hang like a common thief. And, you know, that's it. in theory. It's kind of an ignominious end for a man with such a sparkling career who has achieved

so much. It was so close personally to the king. Abbot the saying that also potentially to his son. Yeah. And just to finish on, what would you say is the most significant legacy of Roger Mortimer? I mean, I guess there's the legacy in terms of his family, but there's also the legacy in terms of being part of the first deposition of a king that becomes something bigger. They're the obvious too, obviously the legacy, the dynastic legacy, which takes us, which is still with us today to some degree, but also, yeah, that deposition is the first post-conquest deposition, so it's the first use of the law and parliament to depose a king. And that was, you know, you can't imagine just how difficult and just how I imagine how

traumatic that must have been for everybody, even Mortimer who's van engineering it. He's at the front and the centre of it. A fascinating man and a fascinating career. So thank you so much for joining us, Paul, to explore Roger Mortimer's life in greater detail. Thank you. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks, Paul.

It is done. The king of 20 years is deposed. This is uncharted territory. We have a new king, the old king's son, who is more than a boy, but not yet a man. The queen has used Roger Mortimer like a sharp blade against her husband. But was this the end she played for? Edward is clear where he places the. blame. Friends, will hateful Mortimer appoint no rest? When will the fury of his mind assuage?

When will his heart be satisfied with blood? If mine will serve, unbowel straight this breast and give my heart to Isabel and him. It is the chiefest mark they level at. There is one person this outcome suits most. Roger Mortimer, he had burned his bridges with the king and has now set the whole land ablaze. As the smoke disperses, there he stands at the centre of power. Whether he shares a bed with the Queen is unimportant. He does now share the power of the Crown with her. He ennobles himself so that his complaints about corruption suddenly sound hollow.

High ideas sound good. Few men can keep them when they come into contact with power. Isabella and Mortimer rule in the name of the young King Edward III. They have their victory, but will it prove fleeting? How long will the young lion strain at his chains before he breaks them? What will he make of those who cast his father aside? Can he be tamed, or are we simply waiting for the next round of vengeance and bloodshed? The question we must answer.

Is what kind of man King Edward III? will be. It will not be long until we find out. I hope you've enjoyed getting to know Roger Mortimer a bit better. If you want to know more about this fascinating and medievally significant family, you can check out the Mortimer History Society's website at mortimerhistorysociety.org.org. Maybe you can even join Paul and I as a member. Next time, we round off this special series by considering the young boy thrown into the centre of this mess, Edward III. How active was he? What impact did all of this have on a teenager who would become one of the most significant kings in English history? Find out next time.

There were new installments of Gone Medieval every Tuesday and Friday, so please come back and join Eleanor and I for more from the greatest millennium in human history. Don't forget to also subscribe or follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and tell all of your friends and family that you've gone medieval. You can sign up to History Hit to access hundreds of of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free. Head to HistoryHit.com forward slash subscribe right now. Anyway, I better let you go. I've been Matt Lewis and we've just gone medieval with history hit.