Gone Medieval - The Wars of the Roses: The Uncrowned Queen

Episode Date: June 11, 2022

Matt Lewis concludes his series on the Wars of the Roses with a look at a figure who is often divisive and misunderstood, despised or loved, but who might even be labelled as a winner, maybe the winner of the Wars of the Roses. Margaret Beaufort was the mother of Henry Tudor and the matriarch of England’s most famous dynasty. But the story of her early life gives no hint of what would follow.To discuss Margaret Beaufort, Matt is joined by Nicola Tallis whose biography Uncrowned Queen is a must-read for anyone interested in this period or in understanding the Tudors.The Senior Producer on this episode was Elena Guthrie. The Producer was Rob Weinberg. It was edited and mixed by Seyi Adaobi.For more Gone Medieval content, subscribe to our Medieval Mondays newsletter here.If you'd like to learn even more, we have hundreds of history documentaries, ad free podcasts and audiobooks at History Hit - subscribe today! To download, go to Android or Apple store.Join the History Hit Book Club in time for the June and July read of Charles Spencer's The White Ship. Become part of a community of readers who are passionate about history and its thrilling lessons. Members read a new book every two months, and get a £5 Amazon voucher towards the cost of the book, as well as exclusive access to an online Q&A between History Hit presenters and the author in the second month. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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with a brand-new release every week exploring everything from the ancient world, to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Welcome to this episode of Gone Medieval. I'm Matt Lewis. For the final part of our Wars of the Roses special, we're going to take a look at someone who is often divisive, I think misunderstood, either loved or despised, but who is also incredibly impressive, a person who we might even label as a winner, maybe the winner of the Wars of the Roses. Margaret Beaufort is the mother of Henry Tudor and the matriarch of England's most famous dynasty.

But the story of her early life gives no hint of what would follow. I'm delighted to be joined today by Nicola Tallis, whose biography of Margaret, Uncrowned Queen, is a must-read for anyone interested in this period or in understanding the Tudors. Although why you'd want to understand the Tudors is beyond me, to be honest. Thank you so much for joining us, Nicola. Hi, Ma. It's lovely to be here with you today. Thank you for having me. It's an absolute pleasure. I am going to do my best. not to say anything horrible about Margaret Beaufort.

I always tend to describe her as someone who I struggle to like, because I'm a Ricardian and a Yorkist in the Wars of the Roses and all that sort of stuff. Yeah. I struggle to like her, but I find it impossible not to respect her and be impressed by her. Okay. I mean, no, that's fine. We can clash swords a bit. That's all good, isn't it?

You know, if we all agreed on everything, then it would be really boring, wouldn't it? So it's always good to have a bit of controversy. But I am right where Margaret Bof is concerned. Just warning you. Obviously. Just like I'm always right where which is the third is concerned. Yeah, of course. So I guess to start us off with, what can you tell us about Margaret's birth and her childhood?

Who were her parents? What is her background? Yeah, well, I think in many ways we're quite lucky to know a bit about the circumstances of Margaret's birth. Because, you know, the 15th century, even the 16th century were times when information about women was particularly scant. So we do know that Margaret was born on the third. 31st of May 1443 at Bledso Castle in Bedfordshire, which was the main residence of her parents who were John Beaufort, Duke of Somerset and his wife Margaret Beecham. And Margaret was their only surviving child. Well, it seems very probable that Margaret Beecham became pregnant again soon after Margaret's birth, but that child never survived. So yeah, Margaret was the only product

of her parents' marriage. Her father did actually also have an illegitimate daughter as well, I should say. And, you know, Margaret's mother later went on to remarry. And so she had another child and she also had children from her first marriage. So Margaret was sort of surrounded by a number of children and did sort of grow up in quite a happy family environment, I think it's fair to say. And is it right? Her father passed away when she was. she was quite young as well, so she experienced kind of loss really early on in her life as well. Yeah, yeah, that's right. So John Beaufort actually died just a few days before Margaret's first birthday. So Margaret would never have known him or remembered him. It has been said that

John Beauford died at his own hand as a result of this dismal French military campaign that he'd been involved in that had ended in his disgrace. And we don't really know that for sure. I suspect that that probably was the case, because even though, as you know, suicide was considered to be a mortal sin in the medieval period, I think the fact that a lot of the chroniclers kind of skim over his death is kind of a bit suggestive that there was something not quite right and something a bit shady there. So I suspect that this probably is what happened. He probably did take his own life. But yes, Margaret, through his loss, I suppose, and the loss of subsequent male figures in her life, I think she learnt quite early the unreliability, maybe, of a man's protection and certainly became quite independent at an early age as well.

And I think that perhaps we could say that that stems back, you know, from these early examples or this particular early example in her life. I think that's interesting because as much as she goes on to be quite an independent person, I think she's, pragmatic enough to see the need to be married to a man kind of thing. Not very often in her life that she isn't married. Although you maybe don't see her as being in the shadow of her husband. She does understand that there needs to be a man involved for things to function in the 15th century. It's just the nature of things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Like you say, she was very pragmatic and I think she was astute enough to recognise that she was a woman living in a man's world. and in order to, I guess, have any kind of security and any kind of protection, you did need that male figure in your life.

And I think that that probably explains why, well, apart from the fact that they died, I think that explains why she went on to have four husbands in total is she recognised the unprecedented and turbulent nature of the times that she was living in and she needed somebody to safeguard her interests. And Margaret is kind of thrown into the turmoil of the Wars of the Roses at a very young age. You mentioned four marriages there, so there's that first marriage to John Dillopold. If you could talk to us a little bit about that, because that quite often gets sort of overlooked the fact that she was thrown into this situation with the Dullopolde family quite early on. Yeah, so that comes about because after the death of Margaret's father, Margaret becomes the ward of William De LaPole, who was Earl and then Duke of Suffolk. So Henry the Sixth's great favourite.

Doesn't end very well for him, but that's another story. And she was betrothed to his son. And then in 1450, when both she and Dilipole's son are both six years old, they undergo some kind of marriage ceremony. But it's a marriage ceremony of words only. So quite clearly, you know, these two young children are not expected to live together as man and wife, let alone consummate this union. So, yes, a marriage of convenience with political advantage in mind, I suppose. But three years later, this marriage was dissolved.

And the impetus for this seems to have come from Henry the 6th, who had a far better marriage candidate in mind for her. And I know that a lot of people have sort of discounted this first marriage. marriage as well, and including Margaret herself, actually, but it is clear that it was a marriage because it was dissolved by the Pope later. So it is clear that it did count as a marriage, but the fact that it hadn't been consummated allowed it to be dissolved quite easily. And one of the striking things that we've sort of alluded to before when I was talking to Nathan was that in 1450, when William Dillipal, I mean, you can call them Dula Poole or Dullo, I tend to say Dillipole, but I don't know that there's a right or wrong, but when William Dillopold

falls in 1450, as part of the charges against him, there is this idea that he married his son John to Margaret in order to get John into the line of succession to the throne of the childless Henry the 6th. So there seems to be this idea that Margaret was a path to the throne that she did have some kind of royal title and royal right in 1450, which I think later on people are keen to talk about her having no legitimate claim to the throne. But I think it's pretty clear that in 1450, even at a really young age, she is seen as having a legitimate right and being a route to the throne? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that one of the key reasons why this is the case is because

although Henry VIII at this time had been married to Margaret of Anjou for five years by 1450, that she hadn't become pregnant as of yet. So Henry the Sixth didn't have a child of his own to succeed him. And so, yes, Margaret was considered to be a potential, you know, It wasn't sort of, I don't want to say, it wasn't openly acknowledged as such, but, you know, she wasn't thrust forward as this huge candidate to be the king's heir as such. But yeah, people around the throne were very, very aware of her royal status and her raw blood and connections. And I think that this is something that also Margaret herself would have become aware of from a very young age and would have been raised with this acute awareness of her royal roots and her closeness and

proximity to the throne. So yeah, you're right. I think later on, obviously, Marlbara's position, if you like, becomes diluted by the other male contenders for the throne, but certainly in 1450, whether you like it or not, she was a presence there and, yeah, there was talk of her, possibly, being used as a potential contender should Henry the 6th not produce a child of his own. And do you think that element of her proximity to the throne and the potential, you know, of viewing her as an heir is the reason for her second marriage? Why Henry the 6th chooses that candidate for her second marriage? Edmund Tudor, yeah, I do actually.

I do, because we know that Henry the 6th was very fond of his half-brothers, Edmund and Jasper Tudor. They, of course, didn't have any claim to the throne in their own right, but we know that Henry was very keen to provide for them. So, yeah, I do think that perhaps in some ways that may have. have influenced Henry's decision to marry Margaret to Edmund, definitely. Apart from the fact that she was a very wealthy heiress as well, and it meant that Edmund would be financially provided for as well.

So, yeah, of course there was that element too. Yeah, I think there's the element of providing for Edmund and giving him all of that income, but I think Henry is nervous about who might succeed him or who might be eyeing his throne. I think he's quite paranoid already by this point. point, we've seen Humphrey Duke of Gloucester fall, he's worried about what Richard Duke of York's intentions might be. Yeah. And I think if he sees Margaret as a potential

heiress who could be in line for the throne, then who better than his half-brother? You know, it's keeping that claim within the family, if you like, you know, it's keeping it close to him with someone that he trusts. Yeah, I think we do have to consider that as a strong possibility and I'm not trying to preempt because I'm sure we'll get to this. But, you know, how in popular culture, the emphasis has been on the fact that as soon as Margaret gave birth to her son, you know, she had these visions of putting him on the throne. But actually, I don't really think that anybody has considered Margaret in the context of what came before. So what you're saying, you know, I think that actually dear of her as a potential candidate for the throne comes in much earlier

than Henry's birth. And, yeah, we shouldn't sort of forget that. That, Yes, Henry's claim comes about as a result of Margaret, but yes, actually, she was possibly being considered sometime prior to that. And Margaret's marriage to Edmund, I mean, it's fairly short-lived. It's problematic even by the standards of the time. She's 12 when they're married. They consummate the marriage early on. Edmund, I think, is in his mid-20s. So he dies fairly quickly and leaves her pregnant. What kind of situation does that leave her in? And how do, I mean, she gives birth to her only son, Henry, in 14, 15,000. What kind of situation does this leave her in? I mean, she was hugely vulnerable because at the time that Edmund died, so Edmund dies on the 1st of November at Carmarthen Castle. Bishop Fisher, Margaret's friend and confessor,

tells us that he died of the plague. I know Nathan's got another theory on that. I don't know whether he mentioned that in your recording. But basically Margaret is alone in Wales at this time. She's hugely vulnerable. She hasn't got any of her. friends and family around her. And the only person that she has to call on is her brother-in-law, Jasper Tudor. And the Tudor brothers seem to have been very close to one another. And Jasper didn't

hesitate to come to Margaret's aid. But we know that she was very vulnerable. And, you know, Bishop Fisher would later explain to Henry the Sevenths that while your mother carried you in the womb, you narrowly avoided the plague of which your illustrious father died, which could so easily have killed an unborn child. So there's this threat of disease, there's political unrest, and Margaret is faced with the prospect of giving birth amid all of this. So fortunately for her, Jasper Tudor does come to support her, and he takes her to Pembroke Castle, his stronghold, which is a little over two miles away from Lamphe, which was a regal bishop's palace that Margaret had been living in until this point. And yes, it was here at Pembroke that on the 28th of January,

13-year-old Margaret gave birth to Henry, future Henry the 7th, of course. And again, we know from Bishop Fisher, he says that it seemed a miracle, that at that age, and of so little a personage, anyone should have been born at all. So, of course, in this, he's referencing the fact that not only was Margaret immature in years, well, we know she was, she was very small and that she was physically underdeveloped at this time. So it was a miracle really that she did survive that ordeal and in fact that the baby did as well. And I know it's impossible to kind of diagnose anything medically at any kind of a distance, but we know that Margaret never has another successful pregnancy for all of her life. And is there some sense that perhaps being pregnant so young

her either physically or emotionally, she didn't want to go through that again or her body wasn't able to go through that again. Yeah, I think definitely it scarred her emotionally and, you know, we see this in particular when years later Margaret's granddaughter, a namesake, Princess Margaret, was being proposed as a bride for James IV of Scotland and, you know, she urged Henry the 7th not to allow Margaret to be sent to Scotland to consummate this marriage too early in case she was injured. So clearly from this we can see the psychological trauma that Margaret herself had experienced. And as for the physical trauma is so difficult, like as you've already said, it's really difficult to know. My own thought, and it can only be a thought, a guess, if you like, but I suspect that she actually

actually made a conscious decision not to become pregnant again. And as I say, it's only a hunch. You know, people may agree or disagree with me. It can't prove it. But I suspect that this may have also had an impact when it came to choosing her third and fourth husband as well. So, I mean, who knows? Five hundred years later, who knows? But I certainly think that she wasn't keen to repeat the experience of childbirth again, then who can blame her? Absolutely. I mean, it's not hard to imagine the kind of trauma that she'd gone through psychologically and physically and the effect that that must have had on someone. Yeah. But as we mentioned before, she is, even at this young age, so she's still 13, she's still quite pragmatic and it isn't

that long before she decides she needs to get married again, and she embarks on her third marriage. So what can you tell us about that? Who does she marry next? Yeah, so she goes on to marry Henry Stafford, who's the second son of the Duke of Buckingham. So Buckingham, one of Henry the six great supporters, killed at the Battle of Northampton in 1460. But Henry Stafford seems to have been quite a good choice for her. Certainly I think we can say that the marriage with Stafford was the most successful of Margaret's marriages in personal terms. It's quite interesting with Margaret it because I think we could say actually that her head rules her heart in most instances throughout her life. And what's quite interesting with her is that aside from her son,

which is obviously a different kind of love, I don't think she was ever in love with anybody. I don't think she ever experienced love. But I think that she did experience contentment, perhaps, with Stafford. We know that the couple, they were married on the 3rd of January 1458. so almost a year after Henry Tudor's birth. We know that they would spend a lot of time in one another's company. We know that Margaret travelled with Stafford very frequently, and we know that they regularly celebrated their wedding anniversary together. So there certainly seems to have been an element of enjoyment in one another's company.

They also set up home together at Woking, which was a former Beauford property, that quickly became Margaret's favourite home. There's a very small amount of Woking Palace that survives today. It doesn't really convey the grandeur that they would have become accustomed to living in. But we know that they spent a lot of their time here and they enjoyed all of the nominal pursuits that would have been expected of a gentry couple in the 15th century.

And to all intents and purposes, they lived a relatively happy life, together and Stafford also seems to have taken an interest in Margaret's son, which would, I think, have been another reason why he was a good choice from Margaret's perspective. I just say again, hard to diagnose at this kind of distance and to talk about anything like love, but certainly it seems like a period in Margaret's life that was relatively settled and happy and content and that maybe she felt secure with Henry Stafford for the first time. Yeah, I think so. I think so because at this time, the walls of the roses are well

away. There's so much uncertainty throughout the country and who's going to come through all of this, what's going to happen to Margaret's family and Henry the sick, her relative. And I think that you're right. I think that Henry Stafford did provide her with this sort of protection, this stability, perhaps this happy family life, which, I mean, I said she did have a relatively happy childhood, but a relatively stable, domestic life as mistress of her own household. I think, yeah, there was that element of stability there. Hello, I'm James Rogers, and over on the history hit warfare podcast, I bring you cutting-edge military histories from around the world.

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where we're on the front lines of military history. But like almost everything for Margaret, it doesn't really last very long. Her happiness doesn't seem to endure very long. What happens to Henry Stafford? So Henry Stafford, he fought for Edward VIII at the Battle of Barnett in 1471, critical year in the Walls of the Roses. And we know that he sustained battle injuries at Barnett, but the nature and severity of these, we don't really know. But very sadly, from Margaret, he died on the 4th of October, 1471.

possibly as a result of these battle injuries, but we don't really know for sure. But unfortunately, yeah, that brought an end to Margaret's marriage. And quite interesting that she's often viewed as this arch-Lancastrian loyalist, but her husband is killed fighting for the Yorkist cause. And it's hard to imagine that they didn't have a conversation about who they were going to back and how all of this might play out. So in this critical period of the Wars of the Roses in 1471, we do see this arch-lancastrian probably pragmatically.

You keep using that word for Margaret, but throwing her lot in almost with the House of York at that point. Yeah, I think so, because Henry Stafford had fought for Henry the 6th at Tauton, which had obviously come before, and he'd been pardoned by Edward IV as a result of this. And I think Margaret and Stafford had had to do, I don't want to say they'd had to do a great deal of grovelling to Edward. But I think Edward IV was definitely mistrustful of them and who can blame them, given both of their backgrounds really. And so I think that they'd had to work hard to ingratiate themselves with Edward.

And I think that probably they recognised that Edward was certainly the stronger king, but also the strong. King, but also the stronger military commander, military leader. And they perhaps sensed that Edward was going to have the victory. And it did seem the most pragmatic thing to get behind him. So, yeah, I suspect that that's probably what happened. We know Margaret never forgot her family roots. And she was always Lancastrian at heart. But she also knew when to be seen to bend the knee to the other side, I suppose, and ingratiate herself with those who would have been viewed as her enemies, really. And I guess maybe another example of her head ruling her heart again, because her heart may well

have been Lancasterian and favoured Henry the 6th, but in 1470 at the re-adeption, we're given this image of Henry coming out of the tower, you know, looking in absolute shambles, not in control of anything, being just a puppet for Warwick and others. And perhaps Margaret was wise enough to look at that and think, might be what I would tend to favour, but really isn't an attractive proposition at the moment. Yeah, yeah. She would have known, I think, that Edward IV wasn't just going to cower away and give up at the readeption. There was going to be some kind of confrontation coming after that. And yeah, like, I mean, whatever her family loyalties, I don't think she could have failed to have noticed that, unfortunately, Henry was a bad king. There's no two ways about it,

even if you've got sympathy, which I'm sure most people do, on a personal level, on a political level, he was a disaster. That classic medieval thing of being too nice a man to be a good king sometimes. Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. So at the end of 1471, Margaret finds herself at the age of she about 20 at this point, widowed for a second time. How does she go about protecting herself? Does she feel the need to protect herself?

What steps does she take next? Well, she was once again in a very vulnerable situation because not only was she left without her husband, Henry Stafford, but by this point, in the aftermath of the Battle of Tewksbury, her son, Henry Tudor, had fled abroad with his uncle, Jasper Tudor, and some sources say that this was done at Margaret's urging. I think that that probably is quite accurate. And we know that although Jasper and Henry were, aiming for France, they ended up in Brittany, where they become the hostages of Duke Francis the second of Brittany. And so once again, Margaret's in this precarious situation. The House of York seemed to have very firmly established themselves following the Battle of Chukesbury. And so, what's she going to do? And she does what she's done before and she takes another husband. But this time she chooses a husband who has a strong affinity with the House of York. This husband is Thomas Stanley, who was a member of Edward IV's household.

And basically she sets about, with Stanley's help, I should say, trying to re-engratiate herself once again with Edward the fourth and trying also to work towards the restoration of her son, because Henry is her key priority. keeping him safe and trying to work towards his restoration. So that is very much in Margaret's mind at this time. So again, I'm going to use the word pragmatism again. You know, she's throwing her lot in with the House of York, probably surely in a bid to protect herself and also now to protect her son, who it feels very much like Margaret's priority after 1471 is how to get Henry home

and get close to him again. Yeah, very much so, because I think at this time, I'm not sure what you think, but any hopes for the restoration of Lancaster at this point just seem absolutely dead. Because as I say, Edward VIII has pretty firmly established himself at this time. And of course, by this time, actually, he already had one male heir, future Edward V. And there's another son also who dies young. But yes, Margaret's very much working towards bringing her son home. And this is where all her efforts are concentrated. And she does come quite close to affecting this reconciliation for Henry with the House of York.

It's so close, in fact, that Edward VIII actually drafts a pardon for Henry Tudor, which can still be seen in the archives at Westminster Abbey. But then once again, it's almost like an episode from EastEnders or something. isn't it? It's just once again She gets the duff-duffs all the time Yeah she does She comes so close

I mean it must have just been agonising for her because then all of a sudden out of the blue Like everybody else Margaret would have been shocked When 9th of April 1483 Edward the fourth dies unexpectedly

And suddenly Henry's possible restoration And return her to his mother. It's all up in the air once again. Yeah, and that feels like a really big moment for Margaret. So I feel that she gets this far. She's almost got Henry home. And this is after 12 years of exile, 12 years of separation from her son.

She's got so close to getting him home. I mean, I question whether Edward VIII genuinely wanted to pardon Henry Tudor or whether he might have met with an accident like the Duke of Exeter did, you know. Yeah. But whatever. as far as Margaret's concerned, she very nearly got him home and then this twist that he dies. And I kind of feel like what follows is obviously really complicated

and not a story for today. Really? Princes in the Tower, Richard III. We'll skip over all of that for now for the sake of not ending up fighting on the floor. But I think the bottom line is whatever happens after Edward IV dies, Margaret has lost the opportunity to get Henry home

because either you've got a minor on the throne who is not going to be having a government that's going to be looking to invite back rebels and exiles and potentially import trouble. But I think you've also got, when Richard the third becomes king, you've then got another new king on the throne. Again, not going to be looking to import trouble, problems. He's on the verge of confrontation with France and all of that kind of stuff. And everything is so unsettled that in 1483, I don't know that there's a situation in which Henry could have come home, but I feel like Margaret had then reached the end of her tether after 12

years in coming so close, she just snapped. And I think in 1483, I mean, you're here to tell me what you think, and I'm rattling away about what I think. But I feel like at that point, Margaret kind of, that's when she decides to take matters into her own hands. That's when she decides, right, I'm going to make something happen now. I completely agree with you. I think that this is the one point in Margaret's life where we can't use the word pragmatist. And I feel like all of her behaviour up until this point has been, yeah, pragmatic, focused on keeping her safe, keeping her son safe. And I think that really this was the straw that break the camels back and it was one step too far. And I've said this to you before, but I will say it again for the purpose of those who haven't heard me say it,

is that the day before Richard's coronation, so 5th of July 1483, we know that Margaret has this meeting with Richard. and we don't know exactly what was discussed. You know, there's some indication that most of it was spent, you know, talking about a debt that was owed. But I'm sure, well, I find it impossible to believe that Henry wouldn't have come up throughout the course of this conversation. And I'm convinced that during the course of this meeting, Richard said something to Margaret that she didn't like,

whether it was, you know, Richard was refusing to stand by the pardon that Edward had drafted or refusing to offer the same kind of assurances for Henry's safety, something. And that flicked a switch in her mind. And she thought, okay, well, what have I got to lose? And she sees this opportunity, takes this opportunity to rebel against Richard. But I'm convinced that 5th of July was the turning point because obviously, as we know, it doesn't take long after Richard's accession for Margaret to turn against him. And it wouldn't surprise me if even the next day at the coronation, when she's carrying Queen Anne's train, you know, the cogs are turning in her mind and she's already thinking about rebellion at this point.

Yeah, I think that's okay. I mean, as you say, we've got this meeting the day before. I think it's impossible not to imagine that they talked about Henry coming home, even if it's in passing. And I kind of feel like at that point, even if Richard had said, you know what, you're going to have to wait a bit till things settle down. Yeah. I think Margaret is still going to have thought, no, I've waited. I've waited long enough. I'm not waiting anymore.

Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think her patience was exhausted by then. You know, we have to remember that she'd barely seen her son. She barely knew her son. He'd been taken from her in one way or another, you know, various points throughout her life and his life. And, yeah, they'd barely spent any time together. And I think, yeah, she threw caution to the wisconsin to the way.

at this point. I think she actually, I don't know if it's the right terminology to say that she lost her senses at this point, but I think at this point her heart was dominating her head and she just desperately, desperately wanted her son home and she didn't really care by what means she was going to get that. And so she famously gets embroiled in these October rebellions against Richard III in 1483, which I think, as you say, if you work backwards in terms of organizing a rebellion to take place in October. She must have been planning some of this because there's a Brittany leg to all of this as well with Henry, as well as the coordination within England. If you start mapping that backwards, it must have started fairly soon after Richard's coronation

in July to have it all lined up to take place in October. So I think she's made a decision pretty quickly that she's going to be opposed to Richard. So then we end up with a situation two years after this, 1485. So Henry then becomes kind of, after October, becomes the main opponent, the main threat to Richard the 3rd's crown, and is set up as a potentially viable alternative king to Richard. And we know that he arrives in England in 1485. We have the Battle of Bosworth 22nd of August 1485. So let's deal with what is probably still the elephant in the room here. Is Henry becoming king at the Battle of Bosworth the realisation of Margaret's lifelong dream to make him king?

Sorry. No. No, it only comes about in 1483 when she sees an opportunity and that is it. There is no evidence. Well, it just didn't happen. No, there's no evidence that she, you know, from the moment of his birth, she's thinking, oh, it's Henry's divine right to be king and what can I do to get him there. That's just all nonsense. And, you know, her behaviour during the reign of Edward the 4th, confirms that because it is clear that she was working for Henry's restoration rather than, you know, establishing him on the throne. But yeah, of course, what happens in 1485, it does work out quite nicely for her in the end. But it is clear that this is a future that neither Margaret nor Henry had ever envisioned as a possibility until two years previously. No way. I'm absolutely with you on that for what it's worth. I think it's one of those things that's emerged from historical fiction to become set in people's minds as historical fact

that Margaret had this divine mission to make Henry King from the moment he was born. And I think you can see kind of some Tudor propaganda helping to plant the seeds of this, because you get this story that at the re-adeption Henry Tudor is introduced to Henry the 6th who puts his hand on him and says, you know, one day you'll be king. And maybe that's about Henry the 7th later on,

you know, creating his own myth of his right to the crown. But it doesn't mean that that's what Margaret was actually doing. So, I mean, for my money, the October 1483 stuff is about making Buckingham King, not Henry. And the idea of making Henry King only arrives after Buckingham's execution in 1483. You know, Buckingham is Margaret's nephew. They're related. I think she's negotiated a deal with Buckingham to get Henry home when Buckingham is king.

Oh, that's really interesting. Only after Buckingham's death does she start thinking about Henry as, well, the only other way she can get him home then, there's no other alternative is to make him king. Because I think with Buckingham, you know, in October 1483, how does Buckingham improve his position? He's second in command to Richard. And I don't think he makes himself any better off by being second in command to Henry as king,

who is a man he doesn't know, he's never met, doesn't know anything about. The only thing that improves Buckingham's position is Buckingham becoming king. And I think perhaps Margaret has egged Buckingham on to make his own claim for the throne, to get Henry home as part of the deal. So I do think that she has sort of, yeah, encouraged him to press his own claim forward, but I would say that she's done that,

she's playing in false, basically, and that she, I think, you're not going to hate me, but I'm going to say it anyway. I think that Buckingham had found out that Richard had ordered the murder of the princes in the tower. And I think that that was one statement. up too far for him. And so he basically becomes completely disillusioned with Richard. And I am not 100% convinced that he's supporting Henry Tudor in Henry's right to become king. I think that Margaret did

sort of big him up a bit and say, well, hang on a minute, you'd be a better candidate for this. But I don't think that that's where her true intentions lay. But we're never going to know, will we? Yeah. I kind of feel like whatever the situation was, I feel like Margaret, is backing Buckingham because it suits her end. She doesn't care whether Buckingham's King or not. She cares that part of the deal to support Buckingham will get Henry home. And that's all that she's focused on by this point. But yeah,

so one thing we can definitely agree on is that we put to bed forever the idea that Margaret had this burning ambition to make Henry King for his whole life. This is something that comes around in 1483 and it's then realised in 1485 as a very short term design. Yeah, yeah, definitely. We've agreed on that. That's always nice to agree on some things. It is, yeah. I mean, Margaret's life changes a lot after 1485. Her son is now the king of England, a son who she barely knows, as you mentioned.

What do we learn about Margaret once her son becomes king? Do we see her interest changing? How does she spend her time and her energy and her money at this point? What I think is really interesting is that Henry's kingship gives Margaret the opportunity to live a lot. that she could never have imagined for herself because it gives her the opportunity to be her own woman, basically. And, of course, the 15th century was an age when women were defined by their relationships with men, whether husband, sons, whatever. And we know that in the first Parliament of Henry's reign, 7th of November, 1485, Margaret's declared a femme soul by Parliament.

So this gives her full and sole control over her own estate, which means that she now has the power to act independently of her husband. And she later takes a vow of chastity with Lord Stanley's approval. So signifying independence in another quarter. And this is something that Henry is also prepared to support his mother in. I feel like in some ways it's a bit of a thank you present for, you know, thank you so much for all you've done to support me, mum. Here we go. Enjoy yourself. She quickly establishes herself as the leading lady of the realm. So she immediately takes the title of my lady the king's mother. And she's also, certainly for the first decade of Henry's reign, she is always there by his side. So she's as constant a presence as Henry's wife, Elizabeth of York. She's always at the forefront of court ceremonial. You know, there are these reports that she reportedly walks just half a pace behind the queen. So wherever Henry is, Margaret follows. And we also know that she had a lot of money at this point. And she was very conscious of the power of display and image crafting as well. So when we think of Margaret, we do tend to have that one image in our minds

of her, which is her dressed in black, wearing a white wimple hands clasped in prayer and on her knees. But we know, from the inventories of Margaret's wardrobe that she liked to dress in the very finest and costliest of materials. So she didn't just like black. She also liked crimson. She liked cloth of gold, cloth of purple. And we also have to talk about this because it's my favourite thing, that she had a huge, huge love of jewels. So the material wealth that she'd amassed at the time of her death was absolutely staggering. It was worth the modern day equivalent of millions and millions of pounds. So, you know, she had all of this wonderful plate that was used in her chapel. She had all of these wonderful pieces that she would have used, you know, to adorn her person

and all of this fabulous gold domestic plate as well. So it's a hugely hugely wealthy lady. And also someone who was keen to use her wealth for the benefit of others who were less privileged. So we know that, for example, on one occasion, she paid the debts of a priest who was in jail. We know she founded arms houses. She gave money to the poor regularly. And perhaps today, one of her greatest legacies is that she's well known for the founding of two Cambridge colleges. Christ's founded in 1505, loads and loads of references to Christ in Margaret's account books. So it's something that she obviously cared very passionately about. And then she also left money and instructions for the provision of St John's College, which was founded two years

after her death. So, yeah, someone who was very keen to use her wealth for not only decorating herself and her own person, but also to be able to enable others to benefit from it. And also, I think to create a legacy that would continue long after her death, which she has. And Margaret sort of famously dies within six months of her beloved son, Henry the Sixth. So she lives just long enough to see her grandson crowned as King Henry the 8th and a Tudor or perhaps a Beaufort dynasty firmly established. Can we view Margaret as the winner of the Wars of the Roses, do you think? I think so, definitely. Definitely. Because, I mean, her just descendants still survive to this day.

I think that is a testimony to her resilience, her persistence, her achievements. Yeah, I think it has a lot to do with her. So I think in many ways, yes, she certainly was the winner, not only in her own lifetime, but she also continues to be the winner with her descendants still sitting on the throne today. That's a great place to end, I think. we have a winner of all of this mess that had been going on for half a century or more. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us, Nicola.

Oh, pleasure. Thank you so much for having me, Matt. And I thoroughly, thoroughly recommend Nicola's biography of Margaret Beaufort, Uncrowned Queen, for anyone who wants to learn a little bit more about this fascinating character. You can join Dr Kat Jarman on Tuesday for another brand new episode. Don't forget to also subscribe wherever you get your podcasts from and tell your friends and family that you can. you've gone medieval. If you get a moment, please do drop us a review or rate us wherever you

listen to your podcasts, including Spotify Now. It really does help new listeners to find us. If you're enjoying this and you're looking for a bit more medieval goodness in your life, then please do subscribe to our Medieval Monday's newsletter. Just follow the links in the show notes below. Anyway, I'd better let you go. I've been Matt Lewis and we've just gone medieval with history hits.