Gone Medieval - Welsh Folk Tales

Episode Date: March 25, 2025

Dr. Eleanor Janega welcomes Russ Williams, author of 'Where the Folk? A Welsh Folklore Road Trip', to delve into the rich tapestry of Welsh folklore. From the medieval legends of King Arthur to mysterious saints, ghostly castles and even a killer ape, they explore why Wales is a hotbed for folklore. Russ discusses the unique oral storytelling tradition in Wales, its intriguing tales of heroes, monsters, and supernatural beings and how these stories reflect cultural and historical realities.Hear more Gone Medieval:Welsh Ghost Stories: https://open.spotify.com/episode/372E5Cie6GFr1Nv7CC6IOg?si=RCN2S9y7TUaetkCv_u-E7wSupernatural Medieval Ireland: https://open.spotify.com/episode/05WoMMJK9VMM7LiKp3QQ0w?si=uGFFlTqfRt23CcdwTLVKeAGone Medieval is presented by Dr. Eleanor Janega. It was edited by Amy Haddow. The producer is Joseph Knight. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff.All music used is courtesy of Epidemic Sounds.Gone Medieval is a History Hit podcast.Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener survey here: https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

From long-loss Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr. Eleanor Jarniger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life only on history hit. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand-new release every week exploring everything from the ancient world,

to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com forward slash subscribe. Hello, I'm Dr. Eleanorianica and welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research from the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to popes, to the Crusades. we delve into the rebellions, plots, and murders that tell us who we really were. And how we got here.

When we think about medieval folklore, Wales is one of those places that looms large. This is probably unsurprising, given that in some versions of the stories, King Arthur hails from Wales. And those stories ended up spreading to the continent, giving the country something of a reputation as a fantastic land. But it's not just Arthur and his men that call whales home. The country positively bristles with tales of saints, ghosts, monsters, even pirates. And we still know where to track down the places where all these stories, theoretically, played out. To help us travel through this folkloric landscape, I'm joined by Russ Williams, the author of Where the Folk, a Welsh folklore road trip. To learn more about these stories and consider why.

Wales is such a hotbed for all things folklore. And more importantly, where we can walk in the footsteps of the fantastic ourselves. Russ, welcome to Gone Medieval. Thank you, Olaf. But I've seen you again. A second podcast I've done with you. I will take you everywhere with me that I can, Russ. Thank you very much. Russ, is there a particular reason that Wales is such a kind of epicenter for folklore? You know, is there something uniquely Welsh about telling stories?

like these? What I would say is if you compare Wales with Scotland and Ireland, for example, I think for many years, the Welsh, the sense of patriotism in Wales has always been centred around the language and the culture, I would say, more than political independence like the other guys. So, you know, over the years is one thing we've really held dear, is that kind of traditional oral storytelling. You know, we hold literary events. that sort of thing. So I think, yeah, we've always put an effort in, I would say. In terms of being uniquely Welsh, in terms of the stories,

what I've read is that we've got a lot in common with the Irish tales more than anyone else. Because if you look at later folk tales, a lot of them, there's a moral behind the stories, right? Like a lot of folk tales. But if you read the old Welsh tales, the medieval ones, the Mabinoggi and what have you, they're just stories. You're really going to read your reading. between the lines for any kind of sense of moral code or what have you. And that's what we,

one thing we've got in common with the Irish is that, is that a lot of the medieval tales, they were stories, but also based on history. So they were often used to explain past events, you know, previous wars, that kind of thing.

So there's so much memorial behind them. So we've got that, you know, that's a bit unique in terms of, you know, the later folk tales, if you will. But I think what else has helped,

if you can say, health. There's all the invaders we've had over the years who brought their own stories with them. So for such a small country who loves tell his stories and keeping, you know, culture and all legends alive, and then it's just the cauldron of all these different cultures. And I think, yeah, that's, yeah, it makes for an interesting mix. I think one of the best places to start when you are dealing with a subject as varied and fun as Welsh folklore. Is with the kind of pantheon that some people construct way, way back in the day,

is that something that the Welsh have? Is there a system of Welsh gods before Christianity? Yes, well, it's interesting. I grew up in Wales, out at, you know, I can tell by my accent, I'm born and bred, Wells, from a well-speaking area as well. So from a very young age, I've known about these stories. It's common knowledge, if you will, where I'm from, a lot of these tales. But not once did anyone mention Welsh gods.

Oh, we used to have gods. And whenever someone tells these stories, like the medieval, the Mabinogion from the medieval times, I've never heard anyone refer to the characters as gods. They just call them by their names and they say they were princes or what have you. The only godlike figure, if you will, that's directly referred to in that sense. is Ahran, who's like the king of Anun, the Welsh underworld. Everyone else is pretty, you know, they come across as human in the stories. However, a lot of people have done, you know, the steady look back at all these old Celtic

deities, like you said, and they do share a lot of similarities in their names, for example. So I've made a little list here of some Welsh characters who have also, you know, some people theorise that they come from old Celtic deities. So you've got Aran, like I said, the kin of the Anun, the Welsh otherworld. There you got Dilan, Isle Don, which he's a bit of a god of a sea. Then he got Riannon,

often seen riding a white horse. So a lot of people associate her with an old Celtic equestrian deity. Now you've got Taran, the god of thunder. Taran is the Welsh word for thunder. So there's a lot of similarities. When the tales are told, they don't refer to them as gods. But yes, there's a lot of theory.

But a lot of the families tend to come from two gods. And they're both gods of the sea. You've got Dilan Aildon and Heir. And if you... The Mabinogion, the tales are called, for example, Branwen Merhir, Branwen, the daughter of here. So all these characters do derive from these two gods, if you want to call them that.

I love that. It's very medieval because it's a... fact of the matter that especially in the earlier medieval period, when we're establishing the great houses of Europe, everyone justifies the reason that they're king by saying they have some kind of fantastic ancestor. It's something like we are related to people who manage to flee from Troy, or in the case of the Merovingians down in what is now frauds, they're related to a sea monster. You know, like the Czech royal family, they are related to a fairy. And so it's nice to to see that same tradition at work in folklore?

Yes, I believe the Scottish. I can't remember the name of the family, but there's a family up in Scotland who said that they were descendants of Selkies or the other way around, you know, the Celtic mermaid-like beings. So, yeah, it does happen. Well, you have hit on something already

that I think we need to unpack. You've mentioned her, what is the Mabinogian? Because that is the root of where we get a lot of our Welsh folklore and it, or at least the copies that we have, is medieval, right? Yes and no. So, so, so, so, so, so there might be no gals.

And for those who don't know, I think the Mabinogian, you know, they're like, they're the, the OG Welsh tales, if you want, you know, and they're great epic tales. And if you read, honestly, they're on par, I would, I might be biased because I'm Welsh, but they're on par with a Greek myth, I would say. You know, they're very full of drama and intricate relationships. You've got monsters there and gods like we just mentioned. But for hundreds of years, they existed purely as oral tales, right? And as we know, the trouble with oral tales is that they change with whoever tells them.

I've been in a situation myself when I'm doing a book event and, you know, you've got 100 people in front of you and you're telling this great tale and you forget a detail. So instead of standing there, you know, scratching your head, you, you know, you're doing a book event. you kind of swiftly move along or you change it, and then you think about it afterwards and go, oh, God, that's not how it went. So you can imagine how many times that happened in those hundreds of years, you know? But most importantly, I said we got a lot in common with the Irish.

So during that time, a lot of these tales, they weren't really kept alive by the common people, if you will. So you had these bards who were, you know, they were very close with the princes and lords. and it was their duty. They called them Kavarwiziat. So that'll be one. Kavarwiyat on.

And their job was to keep these tales alive. But you can imagine, if you have a really good buddy with the king or the prince, you've got to change the stories to make his family look good in them, right? You know, so there was a lot of, yeah, so for hundreds of years, you had the base tales,

but they were very much. They were nowhere near the original. and they weren't even written down then until, you know, the 1,200. But they're not even the versions the most of us know about today. What we would not recognise in the 1800s, when Lady Charlotte Guest translated about being arguing into English and Wales, and which saw a huge influx of Victorians certainly taking an interest in Celtic mythology.

And they're the ones, it's so is Charlotte Guest's translation, really, that we know, And a lot of experts will tell you that they're very different from the originals, whatever they might be. Oh, Victorians love to do that. Victorians are always retelling King Arthur and taking all the sex out and stuff like that. That's what they love to do is find an old story and denude it of all of the weird intricacies. See, I'm glad you brought up King Arthur because I was thinking of him when I was saying all this. So yes, perfect examples. So Kin Arthur in the old,

so Kin Arthur is in the Mabinoggi on. You know, you read it, it's not the Kin Arthur that people were recognised today. You think of Kin Arthur today, you think very often you've got St. George's Cross on the Shield, you know, a very Christian figure, knight in shining armour and all this. But in the medieval Arthur from these tales

was a very different character. And if you read the tales, a lot of them essentially, eventually are about a bunch of men going around killing monsters, having sex with women, and they're getting drunk in the end. And that was Kin Arthur and his, yeah, and the original night to the round table, if you will. So yeah, so a lot of stuff like, you know, Lancelot, Camelot, all this kind of stuff. Again, the Victorians came up with all that and they changed the character from this morally dubious.

warrior into the knight in shining armor. Yeah, I think that that is quite interesting. When you look at the really old Arthurianna tales from Wales, they're very funny because, you know, I always joke that a lot of them, especially the super early ones we have, it's just like an introduction of various characters. It's like,

my name's King Arthur, and I'm here to say a rule from Camelot in a serious way, and then they like go get drunk. And you're like, okay, great story, guys. But I think that That what it does is, it does exactly what you're saying, is it creates a base story that you can work from afterwards. And that is such an interesting and perfect thing for oral storytelling.

It's like, well, here's, you know, the pizza base. And you can put everything on top of that to create your own adventure with these guys who, you know, these are essentially like superheroes, right? The Knights of the Roundtable, you can kind of do anything you want with them as characters. and, you know, the Welsh are the first to ever do it, baby. Yeah, yeah. So, so you could see, if you put it in that, using that kind of analogy, you can think the Victorians mate portrayed Kinahther as Superman, whereas in a Mabinogion, he's portrayed as more of a Batman character, if you were.

You know, this kind of, you know, he's a hero, but, you know, he's a bit rough. Yeah, so, and like I said, you know, those tales, they were just, stories about history. They weren't stories with a moral, you know, science and morality behind them. There's only one,

the second branch. So there's four branches in the Mabinogian, right? The four big tales. And it's only the second one. It's about a war with the Irish. And that one,

you know, is very much kind of perceived as a story against, you know, warning against the perils of war and how stupid it is and how we all just throw our lives away

for the nobility basis. But yeah, but all the others, you read them and you're kind of thinking, all right, what's the lesson here? You know, and but yeah, and you're right. That's what people did with the tales. And they're a great thing with them Abinogion as well is, no one can tell you that's not how we went. Because like I said, they changed so much. And then, you know, yeah, so you can do whatever you want with them. And people always do, you always, people roll their eyes these days where you say, oh, I'm going to write, you know, a modern version of

the Mabinogian and people, oh, it's been done so many times. But even the ones written down in the 1200s were modernized version of them, of them Abinogian, you know? I really enjoyed some of the Arthiriana that you pull into your book, because in particular, I thought that the way you talked about one story is hilarious. You know, you've got this night of the roundtable, a real superhero night, and he's just trying to retire into obscurity. and then he gets pulled back in for one last job when the pirates attack.

And I think it's so funny because it's just such a almost modern way of telling a story, you know, how we set up like jewel heist movies and things like that. Can you tell us a little bit about that story? Yeah, well, you're right. I think I do, I refer, I think I compare him to Stephen Seagal in the story. You know, those actually, they're always like retired, don't they? coming out of retirement or a day before retiring. They've got to be the hero again.

So yeah, so that St. Govan is we referring to there. And it's just in the stories, there's no mention of Kinasa at all. But a lot of people since then have kind of perceived him to have been Gawain, one of Kinasa's fellow knights, who retired and built this chapel in the cliffs in South Wales. Honestly, guys, if you just do a. Google after this, St. Govans in Wales. It looks like something from a fantasy film. It's this stone chapel kind of built into the side of these steep cliffs.

And you go all the waves crashing against it and all this. And yeah, so in the story, there's some pirates come to it. There's two stories, actually. So the first one, some pirates attack him. And he hides in that one. and God opens up the cliff for him and he squeezes himself inside and hides from them. And then he made a bell then called the bell rock, which he would sound to warn the locals if the pirates returned.

But then there's another story which supposedly, I think it was told like 200 years later, about the pirates they did come back to steal the bell rock, which they did. Govan prays to God for help and a little troop of angels come down and fight off the pirates with him. So yes. So that's a, like I say, a very, yeah, the Christian, you know,

I think I mentioned before, there's a lot of stories about saints in Wales, particularly from the 6th century. Well, that's kind of the other pantheon or like group of superheroes that's happening at the time, right? On the one hand,

you got anyone from the round table you can bring in to have, have a cool story. But the Welsh are coming hard with the very cool patron saint stories as well. You got all of these great saints doing really interesting things that we don't see in other places. Yes. And what I, you know, I think in the previous podcast I've done with you, you asked me,

Russ, how do you differentiate between folk tales and religious tales? And it was such an antiquated. It stuck with me. And I told my friends about it. And I was like, God, how would you answer that? You know, and so it is true. So you go, so let's put St. David's. Let's talk about him to start then.

So St. David is patron saints of Wales. But he's the only Welsh saint, I believe, who was officially recognized as a saint by the Roman, you know, the Roman Catholic Church by Rome and all that. So all the others, they weren't, yeah, you won't find them. you know, in the pantheum of European saints, if you will. So it's only these stories that have kept their memories alive, really. Like you said, you know, previously, what's the difference with a folk tale and a religious tale? So St. David, his stories are considered religious tales, you know, the miracles he performed. Whereas the Welsh page of Saint of Saint-Duin-wen, her story is considered more folklore.

So yeah, it's a very fascinating topic, you know, saints and where they sit within folk tales. Have you got to take on it, Eleanor, after our discussion last time? Girl, that's a good question. That's a good question. I suppose it's kind of difficult to say because especially in the earlier medieval period, when saints come along, oftentimes the church is just like happy to have them here. If you've made a local saint, they're like, yep, that's great, fantastic, we will take them, because what that does is it reaffirms Christianity in that area. And, you know, especially if people have been recently converted to Christianity, if you say you've got a saint, they're like, yep, that's fine.

And this starts falling down in the later medieval period when the church is a lot more of a juggernaut. And they're going to say, I don't really know if this sounds like a miracle. I don't know if that really works. So there's almost this time limit in terms of getting your local saints in, where if you can get them recognized really early on, the church will say that's fine. But if you're hanging out in rural Wales and you have your own state and they don't get kind of brought to the attention of Rome early enough,

they very well may just slip away. But I think also it sometimes has to do with the miracles they perform and what they do. I mean, so for the record, can you tell us a little bit about what St. David gets up to that the church would probably be happy about? Yeah, I think the main story of people associate with St. David is when he raised the hill out of nowhere in order to stand up on it, to spread the word, if you will. So that's in a village called Chandewe Brevi down south. So there is a You know An exciting

The most exciting story I in my opinion about St. David is the story of his birth So his mother, St. Norton There's a lot of It's a very controversial story If you will

And again there's different versions But the main one people go for Is that St David was The product of rape And his mother When she gave birth to him You know It's a very painful

birth and she kind of you know, it's held onto a rock like a boulder while she's doing her and it says, so you can see her handprint still there today. Other people argue that he was the son of a saint and that she

wasn't raped and just kind of didn't want the fact out there that she was actively having sex. So who knows? There's a lot of controversy there. And then the story of when he was a young boy yes, a local priest, if you will, kind of said, oh yes, I think there's a prophecy here

that he's going to be a huge saint, you know, like, yeah, so from a very young age, it was prophesised to be a huge influence in the religious world. So yeah, so they're the main stories with them. Like you said, with the other saints, a lot of them, you know, you've got like St. Gover and Angels fighting pirates, Santest Winona and a patron saint, of love. She, you know, her dad wants her to marry a guy she doesn't love. So she prays to God and, you know, an angel gives her three wishes.

There's another tale about St. Tourogue who fight off against, like, a satanic cult, if will, and he eats this magic mushroom that turns in into a giant and all sorts. Yeah. So there's all sorts of really exciting tale, I would say, more exciting than the St. David story, but you know, down personally. But like I said, it's his story that is recognized as a religious one. Well, maybe that's it, though. Maybe that's the difference. Yeah, well, they were too, too surreal. Yeah, like the more exciting it is, the more big and adventurous and swashbuckling it is, the less able the church are to figure out what to do with this. They're like,

oh, no, this is too much of a miracle. That's too big, actually. You got to bring it down a little bit where you know, St. David, that's like nice and stayed, you know, you know exactly what you're getting out of that. But I want, honestly, I was so hesitant to even include the saints in the story. A part of me, when I was writing up, right, what stories am I going to cover? Santis Duen and St. David's, we're immediately, were there. But then I was thinking, like you said, right, well, what's the difference with religious stories and a folk tale then? And I was a bit wary of people kind of saying, how dare you?

But so far, touch words, yeah, no one's complained. Well, okay, one of the other big groups of people that show up all the time in the stories are pirates,

which is something that I think is really interesting because I think people don't necessarily associate piracy with the pre-modern era. You know, we think pirates and we think, you know, or something like that. But these Welsh stories are constantly on the lookout for pirates, and we've got saints getting involved,

we've got monks getting involved, we've got members of the Roundtable getting involved. It just seems you can't move for pirates in folklore Wales. Yeah, I think that's a testament I mentioned earlier, all the lovely invaders we've had over the years. When do you think about it, the Irish would raid the Welsh coastline? a lot. You know, and they, they settled a couple of places.

They settled along the coast as well. It's only settled. There's nothing there today, but the name of the hill would be Bringwydell or something like that, the Irishman's Hill, you know, that kind of thing. And then you had the Vikings as well. So, yeah, I think there was a lot of raiding going on along the Welsh coast over the years.

So, yeah, I think people did live in constant fear, I would say, you know, who's going to come over the horizon today you know so yeah maybe they were looking for the heroes who would say you know keep them safe from them so can you tell us a little bit about one of the more boring characters like us who manages to get himself into a pickle with pirates because there is an actual monk who is able to pull off a heist against pirates as it were you know you don't have to be a member of the round table you can also, you know, fend him off if you just pray. Well, maybe that's where the theory of,

or surely this guy couldn't be a monk came from. You know, he was probably a retired knight or something. But saying that, you know, it's not him doing much of the fighting, is it? You know, he prayed to God, didn't he? And, you know, troop of angels came down to help him. Same with Turog, who fought the satanic cult. You know, he asked God for help. And he was giving it.

He was either a mushroom or a fruit. The story changed. But he was given something to transform it into something else. Say with Santos doing one. She prayed to God that an angel came down. So all these knights, you know, you come across as heroic night. Yes. But ultimately, I think all of them ultimately asked for a helping hand, right?

I think that we see this though, especially across Europe in some tales about saints. So for example, the Czech saint, St. Ventuslaus, no, I will never stop talking about. about Czech things. Sorry everybody. One of his miracles is that he is being forced to kind of fight a battle that he doesn't want to do. And so he manages to challenge the other general to just a duel between the two of them. But then the other general sees that there's angels behind him. And so decides that this is not a guy to tangle with because he's got angels on his side, right? We see even in the conquests of the Russians into Central Asia, they will have miracles where, the banner of St. Michael that they have calls St. Michael down from the sky and helps them fight their way through Tartar hordes and things, right? So this is something that really exists in the Christian imagination of this idea that you can kind of call God for a direct intercession from angels. And it just seems the Welsh are some of the most likely to do it. They're just like, yeah, all of our saints all of the time. We're going for it.

But it's interesting though, you know, you say this. And if, If you look at other stories, aside Christianity, think of the Greek myths, right? All those are the hero. Can you think of a hero who wasn't a demigod or received the help of the gods? You know, pretty much of them were asked for help or were told by the gods. You've got to do this and I'm going to help you out. And I think there is, have you ever read Joseph Campbell's A Hero with a Thousand Faces? Yes, yes.

Yeah, so that's so that So you're well aware of that So for those who don't know Joseph Campbell looked at all the religions and mythologies from all different cultures And so many of them had so much in common And it came up with the 17 stages Of the hero's journey, right?

So you go the hero in a dire or boring situation Warning for Adventure and then he gets the call and so on And one of those steps is always help from the divine, if you will, you know, someone who gives the hero the sword he needs to defeat them. So, yes, it's a common theme.

You know, it's not just the Christians. You think, yeah, I'd say it's a common throughout. Well, one of the things that is also really common in Welsh folk stories probably has to do with the fact that the Welsh are facing all of these invasion threats, right? You know, you either have pirates coming and raiding one way or another. or if it's not them, it's the bloody Normans, isn't it? Right? And so as a result, Wales has a lot of castles.

And so we've got so many great folklore tales that center on castles. Yeah. And you know, when I was writing the book, I kind of sat back after finishing it. And I was like, this is just a tour of Welsh castles. So many. Because my friends were, so they would ask me, oh, Russ, what's your next book? And they were throwing me ideas, like, I'll do a tour of the castles. And I was like, I covered all the big ones in this, you know, in the first book.

I mean, ultimately, I don't know why, but I can theorize, right? So for me, these castles, they would have been the focal point of every town, right? The life would have centred around these places. Also, whoever lived inside, more often than not, would have been an invader, right? someone ruling over you. So there's always a sense of awe and mystery. You know, who lies behind those walls? What are they like?

And also, they kind of attracted to tragedy, right? And there saw the battles that happen around these castles. So a lot of people lost their lives in or around castles. Yeah, so I would say that is why. Have you got a theory yourself? Yeah, I mean, I think that that your bang on there is that, you know, now we tend to see castles. a bit romantic, but really they are fundamentally, harbages are violence, right? You know,

they're here because they're reminding you who's in charge. They also are there to maybe protect people in case there is violence that breaks out. So I think they are kind of blood-soaked. You know, it's not just some romantic palace where people go and have fun. These are created out of the blood, sweat, and tears of the local community. But as a result, You get some nice kind of creepy folk tales out of this. Can you tell us a little bit about the ghosts carefully? Because they very much represent this idea of death or violence being foretold in a place like this. Yes, I will tell you about Kifili, but I do want to tell you.

Do you remember the story with the ghost of the ape, the ghost of the killer ape? So I'll, I got to tell you about that one. Yes. But yeah, let's do Caifili first. I want to see, go. Another pattern you will see, stick with castles as well, right? So you've got a rainbow of, you know, different coloured female ghosts that haunt these castles. So in Caifili is the green lady of Caifili.

In Canavan, you go the white lady there. Kastakhch, the white lady there. A lot of these castles, yeah, I've got, or there's, There's a red lady somewhere as well. And so the story in Kent Finley, again, yes, it was a love triangle that went horribly wrong. So the Norman Lord ruled at the time. He was a bit of a, you know, typical Norman. He was all about conquest, right, and power.

Not much. There's so much affection, I would imagine. Whereas his wife was, we would call a woke these days, if you will, you know. but she enjoyed having fun and didn't look down at down her people and then one day a prince visited the castle and she fell in love

and they started an affair and then a local monk grass you know kind of grass them up told the normal lord about them and the prince hun the monk from a tree as punishment just before he himself

was then killed now at the time the lady was over in France when this happened. And yet, her spirit is said to haunt the castle of Caifili. And that happens in another couple of castles as well. Very often the ghost would have died somewhere else. But they came back here. So yeah, so that's an interesting one.

And she's a friendly ghost as well. She's very popular. There are people who claim to have seen her. And they all said that she smiled or kind of step. to side to let him through a door, you know, she's not a scary ghost at all. But one scary goes, another one from a castle, like I said, the killer ape. So down south, you've got Caro Castle, and the story goes there in the 1700s, the picture of the castle, someone bore him a monkey, a Barbie ape, as a gift.

Now, the guy, he wasn't a very nice guy at all. He'd keep this monkey in a cage and kind of prod him and throw things at him and tease him. So I bet the ape couldn't wait to get out and get his hands on him. And what happened? His son fell in love with a local peasant girl, and he wasn't happy about it. So the girl's father went over to the castle to try and talk things out, but the guy released the ape on him instead. But the ape attacked him, not the other guy.

And he ran off. Now, the servants didn't rush to help him. Oh, good boy. Yeah. So they went there. The next morning, there was the Lord dead in a pool of blood, and the ape was nowhere to be found. But people have said then that on a dark stormy night,

you can hear the ape shrieking, you know, around the cast, the corridors of the castle. So that really stood out for me. You don't get a lot of stories about, you know, the killer apes, too. No, I mean, ordinarily not the ghost that I expect. Although, I mean, I guess there's rumors in the Tower of London that there's a ghost bear from when there was a zoo. But I think in both of these instances, it's really quite interesting who the ghost is at these castles. Because like you say, you know, you would expect now when we tell stories for the ghost to sort of be the person who was killed.

That's usually how we do it. Not like your girlfriend who was away at the time. She's not going to come back to ha you. You know, it would be the guy who got killed by the monkey, not the monkey that did it. So it's interesting because you have a real different sensibility about how ghost stories work at the time. Yes, that is interesting. I've never actually considered that. But one useful thing with folk tales, of course, is that women had very weak hearts back in the day.

So all these girlfriends who were away, yeah, they all dying of a broken. heart, you know? So yeah, it's not like they lived, you know, retired elsewhere and then returned. No, yeah, they did die in the stories, but always a broken heart. Oh, bless them. It's so sad. I say just on the subject of, you know, people dying from a broken heart, when I found a lot of Welsh tales, women tend to die of a broken heart.

Men tend to spend their days roaming the hills going insane whenever, you know, if they're those night. That happens a lot in Wales tales. Yeah. Well, you got a lot of hills to roam. If you're going to go, you know, slowly mad, I think the place to do it is with a view. So you can't fault whales on that one, right? No, exactly. And a common one that's kind of linked to that kind of narrative. There's a few mountains in Wales where it's said that if you spend the night camping on top of them, you're going to wake up in the morning either a really talented poet or totally insane. You can go either way. And honestly, there's so many mountains, yeah, with that a story in Wales. And I don't know where it came from. Oh, I like this. It's what a gamble. You know, you can either

change your life and become a generational changing artist or ruin your life. Although, having said that, I guess, if we think now about remuneration for poets, maybe that's the same thing. Oh, am I right? Am I right? But you also have in these Welsh stories, figures that we would be kind of familiar with, I think, especially as you've already mentioned in Irish folklore, because you have at some castles, figures who kind of fill the same role as the banshee do in Ireland, right? Like there are these ghosts that are floating around having a shriek, and if you hear then, you die, right?

And this is kind of castle-based Banshee economy going on. Yeah. And we've got different versions as well. It's not like, oh, yeah, we've got a Welsh version of the Banshee. We've got several versions of the Banshee. You know, so the main one would be the Keherite. And I think it's come from, so Keher is the Welsh word for muscle of flesh.

So I think the name means something like the, you know, the bean of flesh, that kind of thing. But interestingly, they don't actually look like anything. They're just disembodied voices who call out. I think they call out to someone before they die to Welsh people. But they would even call out if the Welsh person was on the other side of the planet. These Karaits would kind of reach out and call out to their names that they were about to die. Then you've got Kanwich Korv, which is the club. corpse candle, I believe that translated to.

And these are associated with St. David, funnily enough. So a lot of people thought these candles were him in spirit, one after he died. And what these would do, you would literally just have a floating candle appear out of nowhere. And if you followed it, it would stop at the place where a local person was about to die. And also the colour of the candle, I believe, would indicate who or how, you know.

I don't know the colour code. So, for example, you get a red candle that would mean you are going to die or a blue one would have been your partner was going to die, whatever. And another one, Gragherrchen, now she's an interesting one. She appears, she's a witch, basically, who appears all over Wales,

but there's all kinds of different stories about her. And she also haunts Caifilly Castle. there's a story that she came out of the swamp in the 1700s and kind of fled into the castle when the locals, you know, tried to catch her and stuff and she's still in there. And she's the same. So she would warn people who are about to die as well. She also had a mean streak.

She would actually take people's lives as well. But it's really weird. A lot of people thought that she wouldn't hurt kids. But what she did do to kids, there was a story that she would suck their blood in the night. So if your kid was ill, A lot of people back in the day were saying, oh, Grazribin got him last night, you know. And there's even a well-saying, if you refer to someone who's, well, an ugly woman in particular, you say, oh, you know, she's as ugly as the Grazher-Ribbin.

It's not really used these days. But, yeah, certainly if you go back, recent history, yeah, it was a common saying. Yeah, I find that those characters really interesting because they combine so many folk. Floric details, you know, so things that we would expect to see from, you know, vampire stories from Central Europe with this kind of local swamp characteristic, I guess, like that's they, she tends to be associated with various wetlands in Wales, right? It's like this is something that comes out of the bog for your kids very specifically. Yes, yes, that is true. And because she had another name for his, Hague of the Mist as well.

So she was also associated coming out of, you know, the fog as well. So that was another association. Yeah, that's my drag name, you know. Yeah, I think that, but these things are so evocative because it really gives you a context for the stories that Welsh people are telling. You know, it kind of makes sense in a pre-modern world. If you're living by real wet areas, you know, that there is. is a concern or worry that the vapors from swamps or, you know, even just the chill you can get in really murky air, is going to make people ill. And so kind of creating a character around this

gives you a way of talking about this kind of ongoing, low-lying worry about what your environmental conditions are, right? You can put a name to it. You can turn that into a monster to kind of discuss what the landscape is doing. And I find that really interesting. Yes. One of the things in my mind going, when I started writing my book, I was thinking,

it would be awesome to find out where these stories came from, you know, and you got the usual, yeah, and it's a combination. Folktales were used, like you just said, to explain things that people couldn't understand, right, about the environment. Also, you could use, you know,

the, kids away. You know, if you tell your kids, don't go into the swamp or the witch will get you, it also helps a lot of, you know, prevents a lot of kids from drowning in the swamp, right? So, yeah, you can imagine. So they were used. It was a tool. They was used to explain sins, to scare kids from going to stupid places. Yes, they're used for all sorts. Yeah, and I think that that is one of the things that really strikes me about your book is just the way that these stories are really embedded in the land. and how you can relate to the countryside of Wales through all of these various stories.

You know, you've got mountains that you sleep on top of where you become a poet. You've got bogs that are going to take the life of your children. You've got castles that have these people in them who have made these terrible decisions based on violence. And it's all still impacting everyone. So I think that this is such a really interesting and fruitful thing. to look at because this is an instance where we still have these medieval traditions really hanging out and people still are aware of these stories, whereas in a lot of the rest of Europe, you know, maybe you know about Joan of Arc and that's about it, right? These are story upon story

that are still affecting the way we just talk about whales itself. Oh, yes, absolutely. But what's interesting, you know, when you mentioned Ben about, well, you know, it's still going on and people kind of look at, you know, they're who are these people in the castle? And I kind of thought, I want to say now you often tell people, so they'll ask for you, Russ,

what's the future for folktales? You know, should we keep them alive and all this? And my answer, people might disagree, but my answer is folk tales are here and there's always new ones coming up, right? But we call them urban legends these days. And if we think of it, that, think how many urban legends

and myths there are about the ruling class, well, we see the ruling classes of today, right? You've got theories, there's theories of the royal family are about of alien lizards. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, there's also, there was that rumor going around in 2020 that Lady Gaga and other celebrities

were drinking the blood of children in order to keep alive, you know, and having these cannibal sex parties and all sorts. So, yeah, so we still do it today. We're coming up with these mad stories about the people, yeah, the people above us who we can see. Yeah, I think that that's a really good point because there does happen to be a tendency, I think, to look at folklore as something that is dead or particularly is a product of the past, right? You know, you look at it and you're like, oh, of course there's a bunch of stories from the medieval period.

Because, well, you know how people were then. They were particularly superstitious. They had a lot of terrible things going on that they're trying to reckon with. But the same is true now. I think that this is a way that people really use stories to explain the world around them. And you get these amazing glimpses of the past through the ones that get recorded in folktales, which are excellent. But it's not like they desire to do this to tell these stories cuts off at the medieval period.

We're still doing it now. Yeah, 100%. And what's interested as well is that we're not only just making stuff up. So I'm going to give you a specific example, right? So a lot of, you know, when he say, right, where do these tales come from? And I was thinking, right, for example, there's a Welsh lake monster called her Avanc who drowns villages, right? Avang is literally the Welsh word for beaver, you know. And there were beavers in Wales in medieval times.

Who would have flooded land, you know? So you can kind of go wild and say, all right, where did these things come from? So a modern example, I think in the 60s, in America, you might know who I'm talking about, but I can't remember the character's name, right? So there was an urban legend about a disfigured ghost or a demon who was roaming the street

in this town in America, somewhere in the 60s. I can't remember his name. I'm going to make something at like Crooked Pete or whatever, right? They'll, oh, don't go out in the night because a crooked Pete will get you, you know? And they found out, you know, a few years later, the crooked Pete was real. There was a deformed person living in the area who would only go for walks in the night to avoid, you know, people staring at him in the day and stuff. And people had seen him about, and I'd say, oh my God, I saw this hideous thing, you know,

And this was the 60s. So it's not. So again, this story and people coming up with their own theories, who is this ghost? You know, is he, was he that local, you know, was he the Freddie Krug? Is he that local paedophile who we killed 20 years ago? You know, all these wild theories. No, it was just an actual real person. So yes, it happens, still happens, you know, in modern times.

Yeah, a real person who does. And he can see why he's not coming. now in the day if you're going to make stories like that up about him at night. Yeah, come on. Like, poor guy. You know, this is creepy pastas these days, right?

So someone will literally write a store, like there's a factory in my hometown. And if I was to write a blog post saying, oh, there's a ghost in his factory. This is the ghost origin story, right? And then as soon as that's out there, some people generally perceive that as a real thing, you know? And people, and then you've got local tea. teenagers daring each other, day to go into the factory, you know? And the legend is born, basically. So, yeah, so they are still here, but they spread differently, right? Because we tend to read, look at stuff online or watch TV more these days than sit around a fire telling stories. But we're still doing the same thing.

I think that this is a really interesting point, too, because I suppose there's also kind of a question when you're looking at folk tales about places in Wales. where you're like, well, to what extent is this almost a form of tourism encouragement, right? Because you've got all of these beautiful castles or wonderful, there's a Tudor House that's very much seen as haunted, right? And we know that's a drop for people now. You know, people like scaring themselves. And if they hear a story like, oh, beautiful Tudor House, it's haunted. Then suddenly you've got yet another reason to visit. you know, maybe you want to prove the ghost isn't there, or maybe you want to have a kind of

creepy encounter. So it gives you this extra frisson on top of just having a historical experience. You can have a folkloric experience. Yes. One of the points I often make with people when they ask me that question, why should we keep, you know, why are these tales important? even if you could give them the most, you know, boring, black and white, practical, selfish reason, it's good for the economy. So two villages in Wales that come to mind, Beth Gellert and Devil's Bridge. So they were just, you know, until the 17, 1800s, they were just normal, you know, poor villages with maybe one pub and a farm, that kind of thing. And what both of those places did was they took two landlords, basically, who wanted to make money and outright said,

how can we draw the tourists in? And they brought back stories they'd heard in Europe about, you know, the marty dog who's killed, you know, for protecting the kid, you know, if it was a mistake. And then the devil who builds a bridge for a woman and is tricked and she throws her, gets a dog to walk across, so the devil takes his soul instead of hers. But yes, so they were literally taken.

I heard this great story from Europe. Let's say it happened here and bring the tourists in. And those two places, even today, you've got coaches full of tourists going there to take photos of the dog's grave and a dog who was never even there. So that mansion you mentioned is Langeach Vaur, Manor, it's called. And I got sad news for you earlier, you closed down over Christmas.

No! I know, I know. So for those who don't know about the place, there's this huge mansion in the countryside and there's a lot of ghost stories associated with a place. And it was like something from The Shining. They literally built the mansion on top of an old Celtic settlement.

You know, like, yeah. And they used to run ghost tours. And what they did, it was a living museum. So the staff would always stay in character and dress up. And yeah, it was a great experience. I went there. It was hilarious. It was still in COVID.

So they still had hands sanitizers out and stuff. And the guy on the way in was like, oh, hello, my lord. You know, please cleanse thy hands on the way in. And all this, you know. Yeah. It was hilarious. But they were also running on skeleton stuff because of COVID. So then like you'd have the same guy with a different hat.

Playing a different character. You know, I had a great time. But unfortunately, you see, there's a huge housing crisis in Wales at the moment. Unfortunately, I work for a homelessness prevention charity. And yes, homelessness numbers, well, in the UK in general, are really high at the moment. So the local council said, well, look, we can either, you know, put money towards housing people or keep the haunted mansion, you know, that's one of the other. So I wouldn't disagree with them, but whether, you know, they actually use the money is yet to be seen, isn't it?

But a sad day, nonetheless. Well, one of the things that you've just mentioned here, I think, is really interesting as well, you know, because the dog saint, right? And the original continental dog saint is Saint-Guinfor. And he's meant to be French. The story is that there is a knight who has a very good greyhound. and he's asleep in bed one day and he hears a tussle downstairs and it comes down to see that

the crib containing his baby, the cradle containing his baby, has been knocked over and he sees the greyhound covered in blood and he assumes the greyhound has snapped and killed the baby. But really what happened was that a python had come in, you know, in France, a normal thing,

and that the greyhound had killed the python But before the knight realizes this, he cuts off the dog's head. But then they realize actually the dog could save the baby. Everybody feels very bad. And the local people begin to worship the greyhound as a saint. And all of this is found out when the church is kind of going door to door and saying, hi, guys, do you have any local saints that are worth venerating? And they're like, yeah, of course.

Saint-Gween for her. And then they tell the story. The church is like, what? You can't have a dog as a saint, right? And that kind of like gets into exactly what we were talking about is that you can have these folkloric things that people really cling on to where they're like, of course a dog is capable of being a saint. A very good dog is a very good boy indeed. But the church is like, I'm sorry, we have like a kind of low bar right now in terms of what a saint is. But it has to be a person.

It can't just be a dog you liked. But what folklore enables you to do is keep telling these things. stories, keep bringing people into them, you know, doing new iterations. And I mean, what's the difference between Welsh people importing this story of a dog and, you know, people importing tales of King Arthur from Wales into England? Fundamentally, what is the difference? I ask you. Well, yeah, and you're quite right. And, you know, you would normally, people would expect the Welshman to be outraged by such a question. But, But what I often tell people is one thing I learned,

writing my book and learning about all these folk tales, was that a lot of them aren't wealth, you know? And that, I see this as the beauty of folk tales, all right? So what I find great about them is a lot of these tales are taken from other places, right, and altered in order to fit different cultures. Yeah.

But they all follow the same narrative and, teaches the same morals and what have you but what's great and again going back to Joseph Campbell again he saw similarities all over the place as well and I think what it does it kind of reinforces the fact that these are just stories you tell to the people around you and then nothing to do with your country or your culture right and they're very individual because if you look at them all the narratives they're about someone trying to find love or make their parents proud, right? Or they lost the loved one.

They go into war. Things that happen to normal everyday people, you know, and the mistakes they make are the mistakes you could make. All right, it might not be a monster that you come across in real life, but it would be a similar decision, you know? And so again, and I love that about these tales. So what I've always said when people ask me, who is Kinaz, English, or Wells,

Because the Cornish, Resey is Cornish. For me, it doesn't matter because Kin Arthur is whoever you want him to be, right? So you're right, there isn't a difference. I think we've always done it. And to be honest, I think he's great. And I would hate for people to stick, you know, a Welsh flag is something and say, oh, we came up with this, you know, because more so. It's a testament of human history, how we've all integrated over the years.

Well, or invaded each other. either of. Well, Russ, I just think that absolutely is kind of the story of why folklore is so important. Because even if we see that traditions are borrowed or we see that there are kind of competing tales in different valleys, something like that, one of the things that I think it really does for us is it tells us about the imaginations and the conditions of people in the medieval world and how they are explaining the things around them. Because it's such a human desire to tell a tale to normalize what it is that you're going through

or explain that to other people or say why you don't kind of like that castle that your entire village life has to be centered around. These are ways of voicing realities, even if they are rooted in things that seem fantastic. And I'm so excited about your work because it helps keep those medieval stories going, which is my favorite thing. Well, yeah, well, thank you very much. And you know what's bizarre as well?

Is that I've never been one to tell, you know, I'm not a storyteller, if you will. I would love to go tell a story to a crowd. But since I've released this book, I am now part of the oral storytelling tradition. You know, I'm going around, book events all over Wales to audiences of, you know,

100 people telling them these stories. So, yes, it's ironic. You asked me, do the Wells still do this? And yeah, well, speaking for myself, I do. You know, and thank God for that. You're making the world a better place, rest. Oh, God. Well, good laugh at.

Well, thank you so much for being here. And thank you so much for letting us know about the alternative ways of looking at history. Wales. Thanks for having me, and that was very interesting. Thank you. Thanks once again to Russ Williams and to you for listening to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original TV documentaries, including my recent series Meet the Normans, and add free podcasts by signing up at historyhit.com

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