Good Hang with Amy Poehler - Anne Lamott

Episode Date: July 28, 2026

For Anne Lamott, it goes Jesus, the cat, and then everyone else. Amy hangs with the 'Bird by Bird' author and talks about how she deals with bad reviews, binging on 'Below Deck' and People magazine, and dating someone who's allergic to cats. Host: Amy PoehlerGuests: Tina Fey and Anne LamottExecutive producers: Bill Simmons, Amy Poehler, and Jenna Weiss-BermanFor Paper Kite Productions: Executive producer Jenna Weiss-Berman, coordinator Sam Green, and supervising producer Joel LovellFor The Ringer: Supervising producers Juliet Litman, Sean Fennessey, and Mallory Rubin; video producers Jack Wilson and Aleya Zenieris; audio producer Kaya McMullen; social producer Bridget Geerlings; video editor Drew van Steenbergen; and bookers Kat Spillane and Paige GarbariniOriginal music: Amy Miles Check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds: https://Allstate.com Switch today at https://visible.com for just 25/mo. Or get premium Visible+ pro plan and save $10 on your first month with code HANG.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Goodhang. Very excited to have our guest on today. It is the great writer Anne Lamott. And I know we've had writers on before and authors, but this is an author, author, author. This is a writer, writer. You know what I mean? Anne Lamott is a bestselling author who has written such books as Bird by Bird and Traveling Mercies and Operating Instructions. And we're going to talk to Anne about so many good things today. We're going to talk about Jesus. And we're also going to talk about Mary. We're going to talk about being a, you know, a sweet and tender kid in San Francisco trying to figure out life. We're going to talk about finding love with people who are allergic to cats and you love cats and what do you do about it. And we're going to talk about her new

book that she wrote with that love, her husband, Neil Allen. And it is called Good Writing and we're going to get into that. So lots to discuss today with Anne and thrilled that she's here. And, you know, I wanted to find somebody who loved Anne like I did and was a fan of her books. And I figured why not go back to one of my nearest and dearest friends and friend of the pod, the one, the only, my favorite writer, Tina Faye. Tina? Tina Elizabeth Faye, are you there? This episode is presented by Allstate.

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I love it. The one time I came on and remember I was all dressed up like Gwyneth Paltrow and nobody caught on that that was me. Oh, God, you were so good. I just do a really good Gwyneth Paltrow impression. Your hair looks incredible. Thank you. Is this a blowout? This is a blowout.

And I'm spending a lot, there's a lot of breakage, but we're just going to press through. We're going to press through. Are you at a point now where you're getting a blowout, even if you're not working? For my own sanity, sometimes I go like, Once a week, like a 1950s lady. Also because of thought of walking around my apartment with wet hair, I can't take it. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Because I can't do hair. This is like something Anne might write about because it's like exercise in hope and faith. And every time I air dry my hair, I believe it's going to come out better. And it never does. Actually, Anne Lamont, who, you know, is an amazing writer. She's written fiction. She's written memoir.

She's like an essayist. She's self-revealing. She's written in all different genres that I want to talk to her about today. She has also written about hair. And like her hair, her body, like coming to terms with our like physical selves. Like, and she's really funny about it, like how she tries to reconcile like we all do, like her physical parts. That was so interesting when you were talking to Carol Burnett, too, about, you know, how old do you feel? She's like, I feel 11.

Didn't she say 11? 11. Yeah. And I get that. And we do forget. There are times when you absolutely feel that way and you just and you absolutely forget about the carcass that you're in and how long it's been around. I asked you to do this first part because you and I have talked about Am Lamont and how much

we like her and like her writing. and I think there will be people listening to this pod today that will be diehard fans of hers and then people that might be discovering her work for the first time. If you were to talk to somebody who had never read her, how would you describe her as a writer? I would describe her writing as very honest and funny. And it's like meeting a new friend

when you meet a friend who you instantly go, oh, you're one of my people, you know, because she's so directed. She's so, yeah, she's just so unguarded in her memoirs. And I also, I love the book Bird by Bird. I give that book to people all the time. Anyone interested in writing, any kid, you know, going to college, it's just, it's such a helpful, demystifying book about writing. And yeah, you know, Anne's books, I've turned to them many times in my adult life to take comfort.

They are a comfort, you know, traveling mercies and operating instructions and some assembly require that different phases in your life, those books are all a tremendous comfort and they help you feel less insane. That's so true. Anne Lamott, I'm going to find out more about her today. I've been like reading her stuff in preparation for this. this is actually, this is the first writer I've ever, I mean, other than comedy writers like yourself and others. But like this is the first like writer, writer, writer.

Proes writers. Yeah. Pros writer. Yes. It's a little more daunting to have, I feel like I need to work harder. No, I think it's going to be great. And I think I was thinking too, like, oh, yeah, what can I ask her? And I was torn.

Like, in some ways, I was like, well, I can't ask her to like minister to us. Because I want to be like, Anne, why is. God taking only the good people? Do you know, Anne? Why? What's happening? It's so funny you say that, Betty, because I feel like my instinct is to keep saying, Anne, how can we help, help? Like, and can you tell me? And I wonder, I want to ask her, like, does she get that a lot? Does she get people saying, like, Anne, tell me how to, because she does minister in her own way. In her own way, but it's probably it's probably tough to do on the spot. Can I tell you some things that I tried to make. notes of like what you might want to ask her. Incredible, Tina, best dude ever. You can cut any of

this out. Okay. Please and thank you. Let me see. And I got some new glasses. Check them out. Let's see. They're a little more square. Oh, I love them. All right, let's see. Also, I had sort of a game that I thought maybe we could. Look at Tina, doing all the work for me yet again. Guys, I just, this is an example of Tina's love language. I just want to point out, you ask her to do, hey, can you jump on for 15 minutes? And Tina does research and also offers up a game that she's thought of. This is how she shows her love. And I am forever grateful for it. Thank you. Thank you for knowing that about me. This is, this is my love language. Like, I'm not, if I had to buy, like a physical gift, I would struggle. But this is all like that. As I said before, I would like her to

minister to us and try to help us understand why God is only taking the good people and leaving all the turds behind. Then I started thinking, like, it might be because she's a creative person, I wanted to ask her some would you rather's. Ooh. You have to say with those. So I'll just bang through these and you can edit them out as you see fit. And would you rather only be allowed to eat pasta with butter for the rest of your life

or you can have anything you want at any time, but all of your meals will be served on a moving bus. What about that? So if you're hungry, you have to go down, get the bus. Oh, my lights are bringing. And then you eat on the bus. Would you rather only be allowed to reread books you've already read? Or only be allowed to read new things and never look back. Ooh, Tina, that's deep.

Okay. And then this is the sort of the game I was going to propose, which is because Anne is so open and revelatory about herself in her writing, We feel like we know her. We don't really know her. But there's a game that I like to play on road trips with my family where you pick a person and then everyone, the way your family has to guess who, someone that you know and who they're thinking of is you have to answer these questions like, okay, if this person was a breakfast cereal, what would they be?

If this person was whatever. And so I thought, what if you and I like to try to answer these questions to describe Ann, but then ask her and see what she says and see if we get close. Perfect. Okay. So here's the ones I had so far, which is I started with if Anne was a color, what color would she be?

I'm going to say sort of a burnt orange. I was just about to say a sunset orange. There we go. Oh boy. Let's see what she says. I hope she gets it right. Because we're right. Look at my lights keep flickering.

I'm going to pay these bills. if Anne was a breakfast food, what do you think she would be? Let's not forget she lives in California. So I'm going to say like an avocado toast. Okay. What would you say? I'm going to say for some reason I'm going to say sort of like a porridge with probably some kind of nuts. Let's say California almond and maybe some fruits.

a lot of brown sugar, like a sneaky amount of brown sugar. Like an amount of brown sugar that renders it back to unhealthy. Perfect. Delicious. If Anne was a holiday within the year, what would she be? Oh, wow. This is a good one because it really makes you think about what holidays you consider good and bad holidays.

And I'm sure we've talked about this on this podcast. and elsewhere, but Tina and I don't always agree about what makes a good or bad holiday. I like a lot of holidays. Well, the biggest example being Halloween. Right. I like Halloween. Amy does not like Halloween. No.

It's for children. Halloween is for children. I'm going to say Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving. Yeah. You're going to say that too? I wrote Thanksgiving, duh. Thanksgiving, duh.

Okay, so I hope she gets that right. Because gratitude. and community and yeah. Yep. Okay, what if she was a house pet? What kind of, some kind of pet? I think it's a cat. Yeah, I wrote down a cat also.

And then I also wrote down kind of that maybe she's kind of like a Greek cat, the ones that kind of mostly live outside and are pretty self-sufficient, but they come around sometimes. Also a little bit of a bearded dragon in that. There's, I feel like there's a stillness. There's a watchful eyes and that she is able to eat. cockroaches and still get nutrition of it. Still can't believe you have a bearded dragon in your house.

You know what will happen is eventually one morning you will wake up and that will be bearded dragon will be gone. It loose in the house. Yep. And you're going to fall asleep looking for it and then it's going to be on your chest over your mouth sucking your spirit out. Good luck. Good luck of finding it.

A day of the week. What day of the week? do you think Anne would be? Well, I'm going to say it might be too on the nose, but I'm going to say Sunday. Sunday. Come on, Anne, you've got to get that right. Faith and also I think it's a day where you kind of take it easy on yourself.

So true. And you have a little bit of Sunday blues, which Anne isn't afraid of and isn't afraid of talking about. I bang my lights to that, yes. That was all I prepared. Okay, this is a perfect game. This is so fun. Of course, Betty, you come with a fully realized written game.

Oh, God bless. God bless is right. Thank you for that. I'll see you very soon. I will see you very soon. Thanks for your time. Love you. Bye.

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when you use promo code, hang. Terms apply. See Visible.com for plan features and network management details. And Lamont brought me a... A package. A care package. Oh my gosh.

How are you? Good. Thank you for doing this. Are you kidding? Can I open it now? First of all, beautifully wrapped. Thank you. Did you wrap it?

I had a lot of trouble with it. I wanted to say, I had a lot of trouble. Are you a good rapper? Could I have the ribbon back? Yeah. The ribbon's great. Unless you really want it. No, the ribbon is beautiful.

Yeah. It's my best ribbon. What's the present? Okay. There's a bunch of things. What is that? Okay, that's from Mexico. That's the hand.

of God. But it's a really special one because it not only has Mother Mary, it has a baby goat. Oh, wow. Don't you love Mary? I mean, how can you not love Mary, right? I want to talk about Mary. All right, we'll talk about Mary. I love her. That's my favorite, favorite pair of socks. I got them in Paris, but they're from Japan. I only have worn them once, but not for years. But I've always saved them because they were so incredible. They're beautiful. Yeah, you know, sometimes if you feel worried or lonely and you put on socks that someone gave you, they just can change your whole day around. Oh, Ann, I love these.

Don't you love them? This is so nice. Okay, no, this is really special. You know, I hang out with a lot of sober people. And when COVID happened, the old ladies at my favorite women's group started making miracle bracelets for the young, the newcomers, the women and girls who came in who were brand new in COVID, which made everything. So I never wear these unless I need a miracle. And that means I'm feeling very mentally ill and tweaked and clenched and clutch.

Then I go get a miracle bracelet and I put it on. And I think I'm going to keep my hands off the spaceship till I hear back from God or whatever she's up to today. And so then I put that on. And I'm not kidding. It works 100% of the time. This is a beautiful, beaded miracle bracelet. And I will say it has a little bit of like a Taylor Swift energy too, which I. Oh, I've never.

heard about, oh, this is the best thing. Wait, wait, wait, wait, you have to look at the cover. Okay. Pocket blessings by blessings abound. Okay, so I'm opening up a tiny box with what looks like a little ribbon inside. And Anne, just to just let everybody know again, Anne has brought me a beautiful box of gifts, and here's one that has tiny blessings. Oh, and it's a little blessing. A little scroll. A little scroll. Oh, wow. A little scroll with a blessing in it. Yeah. I wonder what it says. Do you know? Anne knows.

Oh, and it says you are a blessing. Coming in real hot, Ann Lamont, coming in with all of these gifts. I mean, you've already given me so much, and here we are with this beautiful box. Anne Lamont is with me. And I'm so thrilled. You know, when I was thinking about being with you today

and thinking about what we were going to talk about or what I should talk to you about and all that stuff, I just had the moment where a moment you would remind me to have, which is like, oh, don't forget you're just going to be in each other's company. Right. We're just hanging. I know.

I know. It's hard to forget. We've never gotten to be together. We've had this really nice friendship, but we've never been in actual touch before. Yeah. I mean, it's funny because I feel like if I wrote to you and said, Amy, I'm in, I need you. You'd say, okay. Yeah.

What do you need? And if you said that to me, I'd say, okay. I'm there. What do you need? And I would show up wherever you were. Isn't that funny? We've never actually been in the same room together. I feel that too. I really do. You know, you are a person who I just said, will you be my friend? And you said, yes, I'd love to be your friend. And it's a good, I always love to be reminded that I haven't met all the people I'm supposed to meet and I'm not friends with all the people I'm supposed to be friends with. And I feel like you and your writing and the way you include all of us in your life and your world is why I feel emboldened to do things like that.

So thank you. You are our first author that we've ever had on Good Hang. Oh, wow. And it means a lot to me that you're doing this. When I talk to other actors and performers, I feel like where, I don't know we're sharing a vocabulary, but there is a funny thing that happens with writers where people like myself want to make sure that we sound smart. I know. Well, I feel that too all the time with everyone. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I have to do a special draft of everything I write where I go through and I take out the lies and I go through and I take out all the stuff that I just shoehorned in so that people think I'm smarter than I am or that I'm educated. And then I take it and I go, It's okay, honey.

You're just where you are. It's fine. Isn't it funny? We just keep doing it. Same thing with like advice. Like someone told me one time, like wait until someone asks you for advice to give it. And no one ever asks. No one ever actually asks, what do you think I should do?

That's so hurtful. Well, Amy, what do you think I should do? I think you should just keep doing what you're doing. Okay. I feel like, Anne, do you get this a lot? Because I'm already feeling this way where people, say to you and tell me, like, do they want you to kind of emotionally lay hands on them and make them feel better or different? Do you find people asked out of you? A little bit.

Yeah. What's that like? Well, you know, I've been a Sunday school teacher for 32 years, so I have a lot of tricks up my sleeve. I've recently retired, but I always did a thing with my kids, and it's a tiny failing church, so there might be four kids there, and they could be a four-year-old up to a 15-year-old, right? And I do this thing called Loved and Chosen with them. And so I might go, is there anyone here wearing a sort of navy shirt with pink's grid on it? Well, you know how little kids are? They go, yes.

And wave at me. And I go, oh, Amy, you are loved and chosen as is. Why don't you come sit with me for a minute? But it might be like it's anyone wearing Pokemon shoelaces, right? But that's what I just try to convey to people that, you know, you're loved and chosen and you're exactly where you're supposed to be. And I really care and can I get you a glass of water? You know, you're reminding me of when Mr. Rogers used to say the names at the end of his show. Remember that? And he would look through and say, and I see. And he would say all these names.

And you'd be kind of waiting to see if your name came up. If he could see you. It was such, that's an example of just like little people and big people. They just want to be seen. They just want to be seen. So do we. Yeah. We all want to, I mean, that truly, if I was to sum up what your writing does for me is it makes me feel less alone and it makes me feel seen. And it also gets rid of the mystery of things that I think keeps us apart from each other. I want to talk about all of that today and all the stuff that you've written. And I kind of want to start if it's okay with talking about the stuff that you write. currently in real time all the time because you're here to talk about your new book that you've

wrote with your wonderful husband. Neil, what are your steps when you're working on something where you're calling yourself out, where you're taking you? Oh, I edit me the way I would edit you. I edit me with a lot of gentleness. I'd say to me or you, I'd say, you know what, Amy, I love this, but I think maybe it goes somewhere else, not in this piece you just handed me, which means it doesn't work here at all, but I would say it in that way. And I would say, it just feels a little bit like on the first page, like you're sort of clearing your throat a little bit, but on page two, you start to get into it. And that's where you caught my, you know, that's how I would talk to you. Now also, I know your parent of sons also. And, you know, nothing worked, right, but bribes and threats. I mean,

anything else? No, bribes and threats. So I'll say, okay, Annie, if you write this one passage, we're going to stop and go for walk. We're going to stop and watch MS now. We're going to stop and have a half a sandwich. Yeah, treats at the end. And threats. If you don't finish this. And so I'm strict and friendly with myself when I'm working and writing and I do a lot of bribes and threats.

And somehow, you know, and then I write incredibly terrible first drafts. And then I go back and I take. take out half. Yeah. I take out half. And that part's so painful. I don't know if it's the same with you as a comedian, but it's like you hate to just lose something, you know, that you loved and thought really worked for it. Well, anytime you think anything works, it usually goes away. Like, it's always like, oh, that's the best joke. And it never makes the movie, never makes the sketch because you just, you've become so attached to it. You're just like in love with it. And then someone goes, well, you could lose this first piece. And you're like, my favorite

joke. I know. We can't be friends anymore. I know. Jessica Midford, the great writer from Oakland said, you have to kill your little darlings. Yeah. And you have to go through. And all those lines I used to try to get you to think something about me, like that I'm smarter than, better than more ironic, anything, I just have to cut. Because then I'm going to hand it to my husband, my current husband, Neil Allen, and he is going to notice it. And he's going to say, you just don't need this. And he's going to mark it. So it's better just to do it before. Now, you refer to Neil as your current husband. Well, he's also my first husband.

Yeah. I got married three days after I started getting Social Security. I cannot wait to talk to you about that because the way you write about and have shared your feeling about partnering up and later in life is like I've gotten so much from it. But before we get there, I discovered you with hard laughter, which was that your first book? It was my first book. That was 45. years ago. Wow. How old were you when you wrote that book? I was 24 when I sold it. I think I was

25 when I published it. Yeah, I mean, it was just an amazing break. How did you get that first break? How did you go from writing and being published? Well, my dad's agent had always agreed to represent me if I ever wrote anything representable. My dad was a well-known writer. And I kept sending her these stories and you know what they do before you kind of hit before you really come up with something. Oh, it's like when a kid makes you something like an ashtray out of clay with a dance for the cigarette cysts that. Did you make that? She was always like, oh, did you make that? And they were just terrible. And then my dad got sick, which as you know, from hard laughter, he got a metastasized melanoma in his brain. And we knew he wasn't going to make it because no one

never had yet in 77. And so I started writing a book about how a family stays afloat when, you know, an anvil has dropped on the family, when the center of the family is not going to be there forever. And a lot of it was that we were laughing, you know, and it was black gallows humor. Yeah. And I've always said that laughter is carbonated holiness. If you're laughing in a really tough patch of time, you're on holy ground. And my brothers are funny. And I want to try to love letter to my dad so he would know how my brothers and I felt about him. And so I changed it a bit in that there was always a little bit of hope in the novel that he was going to be okay, which we knew he wasn't.

And I sent off six chapters and my agent loved it. And it was really rough. Yeah. And, you know, it's just like she saw the diamond in the rough. something, you know, and she showed it to an editor at Viking, Cork Smith, and he loved it. It was a strange. And you were writing it while your dad was ill, right? And I finished it and sold it while his brain was still working.

The last eight months or so, he was really not very functional. But he, you know, called me to tell me and had read it and loved it. And, I mean, that was like the great miracle of my life. Wow. Yeah. But the first two reviews I got were pre-pub reviews, Publishers Weekly and Kirkus, and I got him in the mail. I mean, I don't know if your audience is even familiar with waiting for mail to find out news about your career and your finances. But I got these in the mail for my agent, and they just were terrible reviews.

They just said, we hate her. She's right about thinking she's a loser, as demonstrated in this new novel. So you get your first terrible reviews and you have to make a decision there about what you're going to do with them. What do you do with them? Where do you put them? Well, then there were, then I got it. It was amazing. Well, luckily I was still drinking at the time. So I got through that. And then by, I didn't have a scent literally in the world. But by hook and by crook and by good friends, I got the money together to go to New York for publication. And Anne Tyler, one of my favorite writers to this day, wrote this in the New York Times book review. Wow. So right. So then you think I've arrived. I'm the queen of the hill.

I'm the total princess of all the earth. And then, of course, the next day you get a bad one. Totally. I was reading something you wrote. And I shared it with my friends just the other day because you do often engage with the world. And you kind of like tell us like, I know it's bad out there. You do the opposite of gas lighting, basically, which is like, here's the bad things. happened this week, I saw it too, what should we do about it? And the what should we do about it

is never anything that feels, I don't know, it just feels simple and right and real and we're all kind of working it out together. Would you mind reading something that you wrote? No. Okay, so it's just this, so it was this little section here because I wanted to ask you about it. It was when you were 68 and you were writing about that year. Okay. Okay. Okay. But turning 68 means you weren't born yesterday. Turning 68 means you've seen what you've seen. Ukraine, Sandy Hook, the permafrost, Marjorie Taylor Green. By 68, you have seen dear friends literally ravaged by cancer, lost children, unspeakable losses. The midterms are coming up. My mind is slipping. My dog died. Really, to use the theological terms, it is just too frigging much.

And regrettably, by 68, one is both seriously uninterested in a vigorous debate on the existence of evil, or even worse, a pep talk. So what does that leave? Glad you asked. The answer is simple. A few very best friends with whom you can share your truth. That's the main thing. By 68, you know that the whole system of our lives works because we are not all nuts on the same day. you call someone and tell them that you hate everyone and all of life and they will be glad you called.

They felt that way three days ago and you helped pull them out of it by making them laugh or a cup of tea. You took them for a walk or to target. The idea that we're all not nuts on the same day, I mean, talk about a blessing and it is exactly what we're still dealing with right now, which is like, what do we do? The world just keeps spinning out of control. things just feel darker and darker and darker and darker. What do we do? We make each other tea.

We make each other tea and we try to shine a little brighter. Laughter shines us up a bit. And so goodness and fresh air and radical self-care, you might binge on below deck or don't tell anyone but People magazine. Oh, yeah. Always, right? And radical self-care, you do what you would do with. a close friend, you know, and with a close friend, if she isn't even worse shaped than you

are, you're the one that says, I'm on my way. I'll be there in 15 minutes, bring your wallet. I mean, we, we, I talk about it a lot here and just kind of show by example all of the friends that give so much to me and that I feel so proud to be a part of their group. But I feel like female friendship is. It's different. It's different. Why is it different, Ann? Well, it's different because we have always been so much more emotional and truth-telling than men. They weren't raised to tell the truth. They were raised to look good. They were raised to seem or be powerful or to amass more prestige and power and money and whatever.

And we understood, I mean, women, our bodies are messy. The work of women is messy. We're the, you know, in the Christian tradition, we're the last at the cross and the first at the cave, you know. And we're there for birth and death. then we're comfortable. We get comfortable with it, you know? I was literally saved by girlfriends the way other people are saved by Jesus or Buddha. And I mean that literally. I was literally saved by chapter books too. And I mean that literally. It meant that no matter what the world threw it with me, I could still be with Shelley Adams tomorrow when I'm six years old and I'm 72 soon.

And Shelley Adams and I still walk two or three times a week. And when I, when the world has just thrown all this horrible, bleak stuff at me, get in bed with Anne Tyler or Barbara Kingsolver, and there's going to be truth, and there's going to be laughter, and there's going to be insight, and there's going to be, it's going to comfort my entire soul. And I feel that, and I love a lot of men writers, a lot of men, and I've been influenced some, but I turn to women writers for truth and comfort. Yes. I just do. I feel the same. And I think you're, like, I feel like by reading your writing over the years, I've also got to walk with your friends. Like I, you bring your friends in your work a lot and you do that wonderful thing that is so loving, which is, because to me,

teasing is kind of a love language. And the way you tease when your friends tell you the truth, like when you talk about Horrible Bonnie, for example, like, could you, who, could you speak about Horrible Bonnie was my mentor when I first got sober, which was in 1986. Then I was called her horrible Bonnie because no matter what I had on my mind when I called her, and it might be disgusting, like for a new drunk, barely sober woman. And she'd always say, oh, dearest, I am so glad you call. And then she would say, everything was going to sort out at the end, which is what John Lennon says. John Lennon says, everything will work out in the end. If it doesn't look okay, it's not the end, you know, and so Mary Baker Eddie, the mother of all new thought of Eckhart Toll and Marianne Williamson,

everybody says that, but Bonnie would say it in this loving mother, grandmother voice. And at first I go, oh, no, I don't think you're right. You know, I don't think you understand the complexity of that. And she would just say, I know, darling. And so I was called her horrible Bonnie because she'd always ruin my bad moods. And she'd always make me have hope and faith again. and that when you're with people that help you understand that it's the inside person that just needs to feel to connect with their loving, sweet, generous heart.

That is literally what heaven on earth is like, is when you connect with how generous your heart is, even though your mind is like, you know, cranky and cringy and trying to figure out who to blame. In my case, I think you're fine. But in my case, usually the default step is to figure out who to blame. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And then I can relax. Oh, I mean, and also, you know, I don't know about you, but of the two emotions, anger and hurt, I'd much rather be angry than hurt.

Oh, yeah. I mean, angry all the way. All the way. So I'd much rather be mad than sad. Oh, of course. Sad is not where I want to live. No. So let me tell you what is in between those, I think, and it's one of the things I wrote down.

What keeps happening when we feel that separation from, like if we're, you know, if we've been hurt or if we've gotten the bad review or we've gotten the, you know, neglected or kind of blown off or whatever. Paradoxically, what I feel and what I think a lot of the women I'm close to have felt, you just go into that shame spiral. Yeah. Right? Instead of just crying or feeling grief. Yeah. So tell people what operating instructions for people who haven't read it is about. Well, okay. Let me go back and say, when my dad got sick, I did what you do. You go to the library. and you look for books by people you respect who have been through a similar circumstance and you read how they got through it.

It's our only hope, mine, most of the time. But there were no books in the 70s about cancer because it was unseemly. You didn't talk about death or dying. Yeah. You know, it was just like, whoa, what a buzzkill, right? And so when I had a baby, I went to the library to find books and I was single and I was broke as usual. And there was just nothing about the fact.

that it can be so boring. Yeah. And I had an infant, and pretty soon the infant got colic. And I started writing, I started keeping this journal. And like I'd write things like that one night just strung out on that exhaustion. It's unbelievable. I thought about wrapping up my baby really carefully in blankets and putting them on the porch for the night just so I could get one night's sleep because, you know, it's like put your own oxygen mask on first.

And no one had written stuff like that yet. No. Or I had written at one point, I thought he had gone down and I could cry with my love for him. And then I wrote, oh, God, now he's raised his loathsome reptilian head. And no one had written that before. That's right. And so people were like, oh, my God. So then the next book after that was my first writing book, which was called Bird by Bird.

Right. So it went from that to Bird by Bird. And then I think I wrote some more novels. Now, the thing about operating is. instructions and I remember reading it before I had kids and you didn't I didn't understand I understood later what you were actually really talking about about that those early times when you feel sleep deprived and like the only one getting it wrong and all that stuff you're right what you did it's still transgressive still to say I'm not completely and madly in love

I'm actually really stressed out and I'm not feeling the bliss I'm supposed to supposed to feel or I don't think I'm doing it right or there is still this crazy amount of pressure for young mothers to have to instantly be in love with the new role that they have. Right. The shame of being a parent is just something that just hadn't been talked about at all. Even the realization that your parents are people is a relatively new idea. That your mother was a girl and that your parents are people. It's not that old of a thought.

Yeah. Yeah. It's true. So then I want to do the same thing with writing because all existent writing books said if you did certain things, probably an outline and this and that and the other, that things would go well and you would almost certainly sell your book. And then you would have really, really good self-esteem all the time. And I wanted to say, this is how I do it. I sit down and it goes badly most days. I sit down with the bad self-esteem and the raging ego ping pong game and I start writing.

And it's awful. It's unreadable. It's God-awful. But I have a secret. I keep my butt in the chair. And I know to write really terrible first drafts. I know. And a lot of writing students don't believe that the writers they love most in the world, the books they love most in the world began as God-awful, overly long, purple prose first drafts.

And do you ever find other writers pushing back on the idea or your ideas of that? Because when you say that what you're doing is you're opening up, you're like, you know, people always believe there's some kind of special room. Right. That only certain people are allowed to go into. And there's certain vocabulary that keeps people out of the room. And when you open up the door and say, come into the room or here's how we do it here, other people that are in the room don't always like it.

Right. Do you ever feel that or did you ever feel that when you were first writing about writing? Almost everyone I've talked to ever about writing, I said, oh, that's the same with me. Yeah, but I just keep my butt in the chair and I use bribes and threats. Now, it's funny because yesterday, Nate Silver, the legendary Nate Silver, out of nowhere,

not referencing me, said, people talk about writing first drafts and that it's okay not to get it right as you're going. So I find that a great waste of time or something like that. Then I thought, well, that must be so nice. Yeah, to have a fully formed. To be have a fully formed thing. It's like when right-wing Christians tell you what the truth is and you think,

God, that just must be so nice to be so sure of yourself. Like, I never am. Yeah, and like no one ever is. Yeah, yeah. Well, okay, you talk about right-wing Christians and Christianity, and we've talked a lot about spirituality. And you, did you find your faith through sobriety? Is that when you became?

No, I found my faith drunk. I had always believed in God, and my parents were atheists, so we weren't, and I know you were raised Catholic, and that's a very beautiful way to have been raised. I mean, some issues. But putting that aside from him. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But where did you first find God as a in person? Well, I was living across this, I was on a houseboat, literally twice the size of this table with the sleeping loft in Salsito.

And I would be so hungover, and I'd walk across. the street to this flea market that was in this economically totally deprived place where the crack epidemic had taken place, mostly people of color, six churches in a place of 2,000 people. So, and there was this, because when you're hung over, you want kind of greasy food and a lot of coffee. And I would hear music from the civil rights movement coming out of this one ramshackled church with this horrible Charlie Brown Christmas tree out in front of pine tree that, you know, it looked like Bertrand Russell at the end. But I could hear this music coming.

And I had been raised on civil rights music and on Joan Baez and the weavers and Pete Seeger. And I knew all the words. And sometimes I think grace means you've just run out of any more good ideas. And I'd run out of any more good ideas. I'd tried everything. I tried to stick to four or five social dreams. and the non-habit-forming marijuana and some pills. And one day at a time.

And I couldn't. So I finally went and I sat down in this church. And the thing was they know there's like 30 or 40 people, same church that I've been at all these 41 years now. And they didn't try to hassle me. They didn't try to get me to sign on or to come to Bible study or to figure out anything or to figure out who shot the Holy Ghost. they just could see I was desperate and lonely.

That's the GOD acronym of the gift of desperation. And I sat there and I was like, desperate but like crabby, you know. Yeah. And I couldn't relate to people, but they got me water. I always left before the sermons because I didn't want too much of the Jesus stuff. Yeah. And then little by little, it just ground me down. Little by little, I started staying.

and I just always got, and I got while I was drinking and trying to be other religions, that Jesus was this sweet, sweet shepherd, you know, and he just, and he had this incredible mother and that it was the ultimate as-is program, and that as I was, which was horrible and messy and promiscuous and nuts, although charming. I mean, had a perfect life. I had three books published. I was well known. Everybody I loved lived in my county, my mom, my brothers, my cousins, but my insights were like Swiss cheese. And little by little, I could kind of bear the Jesus part.

And so I started sticking around. And one day I was walking to my houseboat along the dock. And I just going to sound like I'm crazy, but I could just feel them. and I could feel like if a little cat, a little stray cat was running alongside me. And I didn't want a little stray cat. And all my friends are progressive activists. They all worked at Mother Jones at the time. And it was like I was kind of kicking the little cat.

I would go like because you feed a little stray cat. It's not a stray cat anymore. You probably own a cat now, right? I'm not stupid. But then I finally just stopped. And I don't, this was Grace, which is spiritual WD40, you know, with that long thin red straw that's and it squirted me and I just said okay fine come on in. So has a chance now that that little cat came, what is that, how is your faith changed?

Like I think for people when they think about faith, I think sometimes they think of it like a bank account that just, you know, like an account that gets bigger and bigger, like you get more and more and more faithful. Yeah. Is that how it works? Does it go away and come back? Does the cat go away sometimes and come back? Does it, what, how does it change?

The cat doesn't go away because I do the work. You know, I do the practice and I study. And the practice keeps it. And I read the Bible a little bit every morning. And my friends believe in God and a lot of them believe in Jesus and in a non-annoying way. And I just, that has, I mean, my best friend died, as you know, from operating instructions when I was not that sober. And how old were you again, Annie? When she died?

Yeah. How old was she? She was 37. That's right. I think I was 37 too. And I got sober when I was 32 and I had a three-year-old, no, two-year-old. And it was very, very scary. And I wrote about it a lot in operating instructions.

But, you know, I don't have an interesting or sophisticated theological, no different than that day with the straight cat. I have the theological understanding of like a really bright second grader. You know, and I don't have conversations. I'm not asked to have conversations about the triune nature of the deity, you know? People will say, I can't feel God anymore. I can't feel God right now. And I'll say, oh, good, why don't you sit down? Let's have a cup of tea.

Or do you want to go shopping? You want to go for a walk? Or do you want to lie down on the couch with me? And so I don't have interesting intellectual answers about faith. I just can feel it. it's truth in me. I just feel it in my heart. It's like I have a heart cave and in it is my little one, my little Annie that I always was and my big old Annie and Jesus and Mary and I can just feel them. And I, for whatever reason, I just let it go at that. Yeah. I mean, even my question is interesting that

I'm realizing because I think there's like this idea that there's some deep second chamber, third chamber to all of it, right? Like that there's some, like did you get? to level 10. I didn't. I didn't. I mean, there is none. I mean, that's the big thing you find out in every department of life, which is like you think there's some secret room where all the cooler people, smarter people, more evolved people are and there isn't. There isn't. There's just where we are, where our butts are, where our hearts are. I know. Well, yeah, I keep it very simple. I keep it very practical. Can I ask you something? Yes. Do you think this is going Oh, my God. I think this is going great. Oh, okay, good. Let's ask Jenna, though. She's listening to

Jenna. Okay. I think this is going great. Oh, okay, good. And thank you for asking that. And I love that you ask that because what I wanted to say about, like, you are willing to kind of keep checking in. Yeah. Like, it's important to check in. But that is, that's not always easy to do to check in to, like, kind of put, dip your toe into the, like, there's the way in which we can kind of all live in our worlds of, I don't know, our comfortable worlds. And then we kind of sometimes, especially when we get older, I know for myself, have to kind of force ourselves to get uncomfortable. Like we comfort is really nice.

Right, right. But you also discover that it's in the discomfort and the dark nights of the soul that the growth and the healing happens. Because I would be four foot seven if I had had anything to do with how I was going to grow. I don't like discomfort. I don't like growing pains. I don't like mess. it makes me crazy. I've been sober 40 years, and I've discovered that that is where it's going to

happen. It's like I'm not. And Jesus doesn't have a magic wand and tap you on the head and say, go forth little one, you know, be happy and joy. But Jesus and Jesus in the distressing form of other people usually sits down next to you, shoulder to shoulder, and says, you know, I can just sit here for as long as you need and we'll breathe together and things will change. So do you believe this idea of like other difficult people are gurus for you? You know that? When someone's like, oh, he's your guru. She's your guru.

Like, this horrible person is in your life for some reason. I feel that later. Yeah. I can tell when I'm really uncomfortable because somebody's annoying me or they just seem so stupid or so wrong. Yeah. I can tell that something good is going to come of it in me. But I'm not, I don't want to sit next to them at the table. And it's like in one of the many 12-step programs I'm in, there's one for people with tiny control issues.

They use the word intimacy to mean into me, I see. And when I have that feeling of I'm seeing in me, I don't love it. I'm not avoiding the beautiful, generous, silly, playful. I'm avoiding the parts that are scared and judgmental, that endless judgment. But, you know, if you want to heal it, you've got to reveal it. And as soon as I can see it and I share it with my best girlfriend, I start to get better. Yeah. You know, people say, oh, let go and let go.

And I just want to poke them in the forehead with a plastic fork like they're a baked potato because if I could have let go and let God, I definitely would have trust me. Well, that's when people say like, oh, you just have to feel your feelings. And I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. Oh, stop. Please. Like there's got to be another way. Yeah.

Then actually feeling your feelings. I know. No, definitely. But I'm sharing it with a friend because then you at some point you start laughing. Maybe you cry because a person is saying, you know, I have that exact same thing and I have a lot of shame around it. And it's that kind of core shame that you might be disgusting or not okay. It's not truth though. It's not truth.

It's something that like my husband, Neil, and we need to segue to Neil in a minute. But he does this work with. I love Anne. It's just like quietly controlling this interview. I know. I don't want. Are you kidding me? There's nothing I love more than a woman.

A woman who's a little older than me who I respect having control issues. Okay, good. Let's talk about Neil. Okay. Can you tell everyone your meat cute? How did you meet? We met on Match. And Match.com, well, there's a match wing for older people.

I forgot it was called Our Time. And, but I'm pretty well known in the Bay Area. And I... Had you dated before the... I've been with a man for six years, and I hadn't been with anyone for a couple years. Okay. Yeah, and yeah, I'd been in relationships before, but I'd never gotten married. And then, so I decided I would learn to date because I had never had to date.

You just certainly when you're drinking, you don't have to date. You just know you're going to be with this person and they have cocaine or they have money or they have a car or they can get your cigarette lit, you know, or whatever. And after I got sober, I just didn't know how. a date, but I always kind of knew who, like, the next hostage was going to be, you know? And you didn't know how to, like, sit down with someone, have coffee and get to know them. So I decided, I wrote a piece. It's online. You can find it if you put Ann Lamott and Match.com.

I had a terrible year of dating. Like, I dated this one guy who had this beavis and butt head laugh. And I had to sit through the whole coffee. And I was just going, like that guy in the three studios going, no, no, no, I was like that. But people were, men were bringing me manuscript. stuff like that. Oh, whoa. And it was just awful.

Oh, God, yeah. And one man said right before a third date said, is it too soon to bring you a plot treatment? And I said, yeah, a little bit. And I never saw him again. But so I learned how to date. And I learned a lot about who I am and what I needed. What I wanted my whole life was a man who, if he were a woman, would be my very best girlfriend, my ultimate best girlfriend.

I'd never had that. I'd always had it going to. I'd been with a really, really, really nice man. But it wasn't, he wouldn't have been my best girlfriend because he didn't have the depth and the kind of the layers, the archaeological layers that a woman or the lasagna that a woman's being would present us. And so then I saw this tall, handsome guy on match on our time. And he was spiritual and he, I thought, overeducated. And, but he seemed like he had a nice sense of humor. So I wrote Tim, and we wrote a little back and forth. Well, it turned out he

allergic to cats. And I have a cat and I live for the cat. For me it goes, Jesus, the cat, everyone else. Right? And so I thought, well, I can't, my grandson lives with us. So I couldn't be with somebody who was allergic to the cat because I'd have to go to his house all the time and I basically don't like to leave my house. And so I, so we sort of, it didn't turn into anything. About four months later, I saw this really attractive man with beautiful face and a profile. And I wrote and I said, oh, I love your profile. And you wrote back, you already rejected me. I think I'm not Jesusy enough.

And I wrote back, I could care less how Jesus you are. It was just the cat. And he said, well, I have lived with cats. I'm violently allergic. But if you put Brewer's yeast in their kibble after a week, I won't be very allergic to the cat. And I thought of, it's a trick. That's a hack. And so I thought he was just either trying to get me to do whatever,

or he needed an agent or something. And we got together. And we've never been apart for a single day, unless one of us has been out of town. And that was coming up on 10 years ago. So that was how we met cute. Now, I'm going to segue into. And I love that.

I know, right. I know. And he would be my best girlfriend. Yeah, he would. He would. He loves to chat. You guys have shared interests. He loves the bigness of you.

You don't have to dim your. light around him. And he loves God, and it's not quite the same, but it's, you know, it's so much the same. But is that true that you wouldn't have minded if he didn't love God? It would have been hard for me if he didn't have God in his life, because it would have been like not speaking English, but his, like, what he is, is, I would say more Eastern. He has more Eastern traditions in him, but one of us will be writing. He's a very accomplished writer, and he might come in and say, can we talk about Spirit? And I'll Yeah, and he'll write down, usually it's me saying, can we talk about the soul? And then I'll scribble down everything he says and then steal it all.

Or he'll do the same. And so we have this, we jam, you know, we do these endless jams and rift because on the first or second, first aid, I think we both found out how much time we'd both spent with dying people. He was a hospice volunteer. And I've had many, many people who have died. And I've been with many people because their families have asked me in because I'm not afraid of it, you know, because I went through it with my dad and Pammy and a lot of people by now.

And we talked about that. Well, who can you talk to like a date? And when he said, oh, yeah, I'm a hospice volunteer. I went, you've got to be kidding. You're like a Romeo. And then we both wanted, we both had decided we wanted to play Ripple at our memorial services. And so then three years later, he asked me to marry him. And we played Ripple for our processional. I mean, it's so, kind of getting back to what we said in the beginning, it's such a good reminder to remember that we have not met all the people who are supposed to meet. We have not loved all the people we're supposed to love. Like life is still, like, if we are lucky enough to be talking today, like, I know.

Like, I thought about this thing when I woke up today that I haven't hanging in my house and I thought of you, which is that very famous Dalai Lama quote, like every morning when you wake up, think to yourself. I am so fortunate to have woken up. I have one precious life. It's just basically like if you are still around, you're still around. Yeah. So you and Neil wrote a book, good writing. And the book is about, you know. Good writing. Yeah, about kind of like I really like it because it's like Neil's very smart and helpful ways to get your sentences better. and then Anne comes in to say, this reminds me of something, and wait a second. It's like listening to a conversation.

Yeah, it is a conversation. Yeah, yeah. The subtitle of Good Writing is 36 Rules to Improve Your Sentences. And Neil had him on our first date. And I've been teaching writing since before Milton Burrell, you know, and as my father would say. And he had these rules because he was a journalist for 10 years at the Bergen County Record. And they were all rules like, you know, like layer your sentences. Bring in sense, bring in the sense.

Take out the boring stuff. I forgot what rule it is, but, you know, right from good verbs. You don't need to say Amy walked across the studio. You'd say Amy staggered across the studio. Amy tiptoed, Amy slunk across the studio. Amy dancer, you know, and they were all brilliant rules. So then about two years ago, he said, oh, I'm turning those rules into a book. I said, oh, that's great.

He's a wonderful writer. So he wrote sort of meditations on each of the rules. And then I became convinced that somewhere in this book there was a place for me. And I sort of tugged on his shoulder one day, I said, you know, I know something about writing. I wrote a very successful book called Burb Byrd. And I said, I'd really love to annotate your rules, you know, and lighten it up a little. I mean, his rules are great. And so I would come in and then I write my meditations, which would, frankly,

frequently point out that he is overeducated and there are rules that I think people can ignore and instead, in my experience, what might work better is. Well, I like your, the challenger in me likes the idea of like someone having a rule and then someone getting to poke the rule. Like, and a good rule can can stand the poking. Totally. Okay. We do this thing on the pod where we ask somebody who is a. a friend of yours or a fan of yours or someone who loves your work or loves our guest to ask them

a question. And I really thought about who to ask for this. And I realized I'm like, I should just ask my old friend because my old friend, Tina Faye, is a huge fan of you. Oh, she is. And she's an incredible writer. She's one of the best writers I know. And her and I have talked about you and your books and your writing. And so Tina and I were talking about you. You just hope your ears were burning in a good way. Thank you. But we were talking well behind your back. And we were talking about the ways in which your book provides comfort and your books,

your work, your posts, all of it feel like it is a way in which in a world with so little comfort that you keep doing that for us. And we're so grateful for it. And women pass around your work like what I imagine, they did with medicine back in the day. It's really special. Thank you. And I'm thrilled that she wanted to talk about you and to me about you.

So she had some questions for you. Okay. Okay. Tina was like wanted me to give you some, would you rather? Okay. Would you rather only eat pasta with butter for the rest of your life? Or you can have anything you want to eat at any time, but all of your meals have to be served on a moving bus. Pasta.

Okay. Would you rather be allowed to reread books you've read and that be the only thing that you're allowed to read or only new things and never look back? I read only books I've read and loved. Ooh. Okay. Okay. We've answered some of these for you. You tell them, hopefully you'll get it right. Okay. And if you were a color, what color would you be? Lavender. Oh, we both got it wrong. We both said the same color. What'd you say?

We both said like an orange, like a sunset orange or a burnt orange. No, I wouldn't because I don't look good in that color. I only like colors that I look good in. Okay, that's true. Tina, we got it wrong. So lavender. Okay. If you were a breakfast food, what do you think you would be?

Oatmeal. Yeah, she nailed it. Tina said some kind of porridge. Yeah, I love oatmeal. If you were a holiday, what would you be? I love Easter. We should have picked that one. Yeah, I heard a great line or read it somewhere.

It said, we are Easter people living in a good Friday world. And I love that so much because it's such a Good Friday World. What does that mean a Good Friday World? Good Friday World is where they crucify Christ and it's dark and the sky turns black and there's no hope anywhere. And all we see is power and evil and corruption and cruelty. And then two days later we see the spring. We see resurrection. We see new life.

So, you know, the cross looked like a big wind for the Romans. and then two days later, no, it's Jesus and Mary going, we're okay, you're okay, come with us. Yeah. Okay. What kind of house pet would you be? A cat. Yeah, we got that right. Yeah. A specific kind of cat? No. And what is the best, what do you love about cats? I just love that it's like having a little monkey living at your house and they're so pathetically needful of your love, even though they pretend. They are? Oh, yeah. My cat is an embarrassment. She is so desperate. And also she's standoffish.

I mean, depending on their mood. Yeah. But I just, I always had cats and I always knew that if I could find the cat, I was going to be okay. I wasn't alone anymore. Dogs are too easy. I mean, dogs love, I'm not going to name names, but dogs love anyone. But cats, you don't know where they are. No, it's awful.

And I don't like that. I wrote a piece about that in one of these books about, I was going to get buttons made that said, the kitten is not dead, the kitten is in the living room. Because I went to, the kitten is dead with Neil. I don't remember that, that's right. And he kept saying, no, the kitten's not dead. The kitten's hiding. The kitten's probably in the living room.

The hiding is stressful for me. It's a nightmare. I like the pet that comes out to greet you. Yeah, yeah. But I understand. And then what day of the week would you be? I love Sunday mornings. Not because I'm going to church, because it's Sunday morning and it's the Sabbath.

and you are commanded to do as little as possible. And I believe rest is a sacred act. And it's the end of the week. And it's just such a luxurious warm blanket of a day for me. And as the people that are listening, like Sunday blues is a real thing. And it's definitely a thing when I have kids getting ready for Monday for school. Like that feeling of dread. We talked about it a little bit.

How do you can you give us all as I'm asking you to do. this even though I don't want to put you on the spot, but like this feeling, like, what do you do do with your dread? How do you break it apart so it doesn't get so big and snowball into something big? I do a lot of breath work. Right. I always forget about that. I do breath work and I pray and I call a girlfriend or I go find Neil or my son and I say, do you have a minute? And then I say what's going on and as soon as you share it with someone, it's lessened. That's the only way. ever been able to let go is to share it with somebody. Yeah.

And then it gets so much, it dilutes it. It's so true. And so, and it always goes back to that simple thing of like just not trying to go in your space capsule and take care of it by yourself. Right. Figure it out is a terrible slogan. It's a terrible slogan. And breath is holy spirit and breath is life. And, and I pray, I said, you know, I wrote a book called Help Thanks, Wow, the things.

three essential prayers. And I'm usually saying one of them, help me, help me. I am in a hole too deep to get myself out of. Or I'm going, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, that you got me out of that whole thank you. Or I'm stepping outside and I'm going, wow, it's so beautiful in the world. It's so fresh and blue and things are starting to bloom in California. The paper whites are blooming. And so I'm always saying one of those three prayers. Yeah. They always work. Well, I'm going to say wow back to you, Annie. Thank you.

Thank you for doing this. You're so, I mean, I'm just, thank you for my presence. You're welcome. Thank you for my hand. Yeah, with Mary and the goat. Give it up for Mary. Shout out to Mary. Shout out to Mary, yeah.

Shout out to Mary, the original pop star. Right, right. Who told that little boy, Diego, don't be afraid. I'm here. And that's what she says now. She says it to us both right now. Don't be afraid. I'm here.

You're okay. Oh, Anne Lamont, everybody. Thank you for being here. Thank you. I mean so much. Thank you, Anne Lamott, so much for joining us. And for today's polar plunge, I feel like, I feel compelled to say what Anne would say, which is to remind you that good behavior and good action can be small and tender.

It doesn't have to be a giant, I don't know, sweeping gesture. So on behalf of Anne's good works and in an attempt to just kind of, I don't know, put a drop of goodness, a molecule of goodness back in the world, maybe mow your neighbor's lawn or shovel their driveway or leave a gift for them, maybe put a little gift on your neighbor's porch today, cookies that you made. I don't know. And write from your secret admirer, but that might be weird. So don't do it like that. But you know what I mean? Just do something for your neighbor. Think about people around you.

Do something small. As Anne would say, give them water, give them a cup of tea. Say hello to people who perhaps haven't been said hello to today. Anne always reminds me to do that. I'll do the same and pass it on. Thanks for listening to Good Hang. See you soon. Bye.

You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss-Berman, and me, Amy Poehler. The show is produced by The Ringer and Paper Kite. For The Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Katz-Belaine, Kaya McMullen, and Alea Zanaris. For Paperkite, production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell, and Jenna Weiss Berman. Original music by Amy Miles.