Good Hang with Amy Poehler - Lena Waithe

Episode Date: August 4, 2026

Lena Waithe is always cool. Amy hangs with the 'Chi' creator and 'Cats: The Jellicle Ball' producer and talks about the best part of working at Blockbuster, falling in love with Prince, and why everyone should be watching 'Couples Therapy. Host: Amy PoehlerGuests: Bill Rauch, Zhailon Levingston, and Lena WaitheExecutive Producers: Bill Simmons, Amy Poehler, and Jenna Weiss-BermanFor Paper Kite Productions: Executive producer Jenna Weiss-Berman, coordinator Sam Green, and supervising producer Joel LovellFor The Ringer: Supervising producers Juliet Litman, Sean Fennessey, and Mallory Rubin; video producers Jack Wilson, Belle Roman, and Aleya Zenieris; lighting director Caroline Jannace; audio producer Kaya McMullen; social producer Bridget Geerlings; video editor Drew van Steenbergen; and bookers Kat Spillane and Paige GarbariniOriginal Music: Amy Miles Buy a car online on Autotrader. Really. You can search through tons of cars, compare prices, check out financing and trade-in options, all from your couch, your office, wherever, and if you want to start online but still hit the dealership for a test drive, you can do that too on Autotrader.com/buy-online.  This episode is brought to you by Subaru. Love goes the extra mile in the Subaru Crosstrek Hybrid and Subaru Forester Hybrid. Visit https://subaru.com/hybrid to learn more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Then when the big night arrives, access to the Amex card member entrance at select venues can help you get to where you're going a little faster. There's nothing like Amex. Tickets are subject to availability, terms, and conditions apply. Learn more at Amex.ca.com. Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Good Hang. We are very excited about our guest today. It is Lena Wath. Writer, producer, actor. Lena does so many things so well.

and she's the coolest. And we're going to get into how cool she is today. We're going to get into the way she likes to work. We're going to talk about our love of Chicago. We're going to talk about Blockbuster, a place where you had to go and rent videos in person. We're going to talk about the fact that she is the first black woman to ever win a primetime Emmy in comedy writing.

We're going to talk about couples therapy. We're going to get into it. But before we do that, we always have this section of the show where we speak to somebody who knows our guest, who wants to speak well behind their back and give me some questions to ask. And joining me are the two directors, Tony Award-winning directors,

of Cats' Jellicle Ball, the show that is out on Broadway as we speak and that Lena is a producer on. And so let's hear from Jalen Levinston and Bill Rauch. Gentlemen, hello. All right, if you've been putting off car shopping because it sounds like a whole thing, buying your car online on AutoTrader, makes it way easier.

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Buy your car online on AutoTrader, really. Hi, Shailin. Nice to meet you. By the way, congratulations Tony winners. did happen. Thank you. Thank you. Before we talk about our guests, just talk me through the evening of the Tonys, which is my absolute favorite award show. Yeah, it was very surreal. I was there with my mother and my partner and me and Bill sat by each other and we had to keep playing musical chairs because we, Bill had family, I had family, and we wanted to like share the time that we sat by them during the award show.

And luckily... Wait, hold on. Let's... I'm going to pause right there. You guys were making sure that you gave everyone in your family enough time. Well, yeah. We need to talk. This is why you can't bring family to award shows.

Well, for those people that haven't had the pleasure of coming to Broadway and seeing Delico Ball, can you just explain what it is? It is Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical cats set in the ballroom scene. that grew out of Harlem. And so our cats are not cats. They're human beings competing in a competitive ball. And I have never been part of a project in my whole life that more people love.

Like whatever your age, whatever your relationship to ballroom, whatever your relationship to Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical, people who love it, people who think they hate it, everybody has a just an overwhelmingly positive experience at the Jelico ball. And Jalen, can you explain when you say ballroom what that means? Yeah, so ballroom is an underground queer culture that really started in New York around 1970, 71, 72.

And really the main architect at the very beginning was a, a powerful, beautiful woman named Crystal LaBasia, who was a trans woman of color, who had felt rejected by the queer pageant scene and left that scene to start what we know to be ballroom. And when I say ballroom as a culture, much like hip-top, it has multiple elements. So ballroom is both an artistic way of expressing oneself.

It is competition. It is vogue. It is all of those kind of... aesthetic things that we understand about the craft, but it's also a chosen family structure that's been organized since 1972. And this structure is centered around the house and the house mother and the house father and really springs out of a need for young queer kids who needed family at a very specific point and they are coming to themselves to catch them when maybe their biological families is we're not able to do so.

It's such a great transition into Lena Waith because her work in her life is kind of a living example of sharing herself with the world, trying to figure out how to mentor other people, try to make people feel seen and feel included. And, you know, as a black queer woman, she is like breaking barriers everywhere she goes. She's the first here.

She's the first there. She's like supporting and, giving her voice to all different kinds of projects. And she is a producer on your show. That's right. How did that come to be? She saw it when we did it downtown. She saw the off-Broadway production,

and she flipped over it, and she brought Cynthia Irivo to see it, and she just let us know if this thing can happen on Broadway, I want to be part of it. I want to be part of making it happen. And she was present from one of our first rehearsals in the rehearsal room. right on through previews, right on through the run.

She's been an actively engaged producer in a beautiful way. What does a producer on Broadway need to do? Well, they need to find us some money. Exactly. That's a big part of it. The art of the commerce. But apart from that, also, Lina is a public figure with a platform and is able to shepherd eyes to issues that she really cares about.

And I know one of the things that Lena really cares about in this season and her life is like how to get people off their phones and into a room together. And so I'm glad that Katz is a show that she feels is within that mission. I know she's starting to do a lot of theater work herself. But yeah, letting people know that this kind of getting up out of your... couch, leaving your house, and being in a room with strangers, as weird as that kink is might be the only way for us to make it through the next few years. I feel like New York is often leading by example how it feels to be among a lot of people, right? New York is always bustling. And even just the recent Nix win is a great example of watching people, you know, literally

rub shoulders and enjoy something together. You can get the high from the Knicks winning every day at Cassagelical ball. Every day. It is that, it is that exciting. It is that thrilling. It builds community in that direct a way. Not unsure. And what is she, what's Lena like as a person?

Because I, I like to speak well behind people's back. And I found Lena to be really, really, like, charming, curious. kind. What's it been like to get to know her? What kind of person is she? She's so dope. She's so cool. This is the thing I'm a little worried about. She's so cool. Yeah, she is. That is true. Like I already put on my outfit today and I look, just before I came in, I looked in the mirror and I went, oh, fuck, Jesus Christ.

Like, you cannot beat, you can't beat, she's just so cool. I know, but you're cool too. Oh my God, I'm not fishing, but thank you. Yeah, yeah. She's also, she's so at ease with herself that it puts your ease. So it's just to be so fun to hang out with her. So we have a thing here where we ask to get a question for our guest. And you guys have been working with Lena.

You know her professionally. We're going to get into a bunch of different things that she does. But is there anything that you think I should ask her, big, small, silly, important that you'd want to hear her talk about? When did you first know in your sense? soul that you are an artist. Great. It's such a theater question. Yeah. That is such a theater question. I love it. Well, it's all get in a circle. Let's ask each other this. Right. Direct eye contact. While we give each other backroads to the circle. Yep, love it. One is like, I've also seen Lena a lot on the dance floor. And, you know, however cool she is in life,

she is a hundred times cooler on the dance floor. And I'm always like trying to think about how how to maintain coolness on the dance floor. And I would ask her, who does she like to see on the dance floor? Like when she goes out, she's like, ah, that person's here. I know the party. The dancing is going to be on 10. So I'd be curious to know what that list is for her.

Oh, these are incredible questions. You guys are such good directors. Well, thank you guys so much for this time. I know Lena will be thrilled that we talked. and it means luck. Congratulations again on your success and on your artistry and the great work that you do

and the way that you're putting, like you said, so much joy into the world. Robert blew back to you, Amy. You're doing really joyful work and we need this podcast and this platform in the world right now. Absolutely. Thanks.

Let's keep trying to do it against the rising tide of nonsense. Thank you both. Pleasure to meet you both. Thank you, Amy. You love you. Elena. Bye guys.

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can't get enough. With up to 581 miles in the Subaru Forrester hybrid and even more 597 in the cross-track hybrid, you can go further between stops and stay in the moment longer. Visit Subaru.com slash hybrid to learn more. The Subaru Forrester Hybrid and Cross-Trek hybrid, love goes the extra mile. I was really, really looking forward to it just because we get to hang out. I mean, come on. I know. We like to do this when we're not on camera. That's the cool part. Well, it's been, Lena Waith is here, everybody. Hi.

Very exciting. How's your mic? Good. Good. I'm just, like, placing it. I don't have a hat on, which I was, like, debating. Like, do I wear a hat? I'm feeling good about the no hat.

Yeah, I like, I mean, I, Lena, everything you wear is so cool. Like, Lita, don't start with a baby. You wear a hat, you take it off. It looks cool. Okay, I know. Come on. Coolest hat ever. Yeah.

You wear my own clothes. This is my own shit right here. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's. like I want to get into that actually because it's kind of, I want to talk to you about your your look, your style, and also just the fact that like you're like my coolest friend. We'll get there. You're the best.

So I heard you say something in another podcast that I love and I've been thinking about it. Jesus. Who does? No, but I think it was another podcast or TikTok probably. Okay. Not on there. No, but that's where I get all my information. Oh, well, you and everybody else.

Yeah, I know. But you said, like, if you're, you said something that I love, which is if you're afraid that people are going to steal your ideas, you should have more ideas. That is true. I did say that. Probably the podcast. And it's such a great, it's, it's, I totally agree. Can you tell me what you mean by that? Okay.

This is a really good way to kick off. Such a great question. Okay. Because that's why you have a peabody. Here's a deal. There's this interesting debate that happens where a lot of, up-and-coming writers, if you will, talk about how do I protect my ideas? Should I get them copywritten?

Should I, like, register them with the WGA? And I always have a very, I guess it's a hot take response, which is I don't believe someone can steal your idea. Say more. I love it. I just feel like if I tried to write my version of Parks and Rec, it wouldn't be Parks and Rec. It would be something else. even if we all have the same, like, idea,

it's going to be different because it's coming from two completely different writers. There's no way to copy and paste an idea. And also, artists, I believe, are oftentimes in the same wave. There's a reason why sometimes you see there's a lot of vampires stuff happening right now. There's a lot of horror going on over here. Right. And it's just because artists are sort of in their silo, they're doing their thing, and then they kind of decide, oh, I'm going to write this, or this is very similar to this thing.

I just don't buy it. Well, what I love about it is it's like, it's the opposite of grasping energy, right? Which is like, I have this idea. The idea is so important. It's my one idea. And also, as I've gotten older, I feel like the idea is part of it,

but so much of it is people in process too. Like an idea can only go so far. Right. And it's just, in thinking about the theme for this pod today, I was thinking about just that because I feel like that statement kind of defines your career. Like you do so many different things. You produce, you write, you act.

You know, you do a podcast. You're in theater. You're in TV. Like, you have this way of moving through the world creatively that doesn't feel like your last idea was your best idea and that you're grasping too hard on any one thing. Would you say that's true? Yeah. I think that's really beautifully put. Thank you for saying that I receive it.

I think that I think people want to protect what they have. And there have been like big cases about people saying this was stolen from this. There's those things out there. But I just sort of feel like I'm always evolving as a person. So therefore the work should be evolving as well. I feel like sometimes you see artists and they just keep kind of doing the same thing. And sort of similar. And sometimes that works for people.

But I think for me I want my art to always reflect where I am in my life. And I want to be in a different place in my life. And you're never a snob. No. But, you know, like, you like what you like and you like it passionately and then you make things. Like, you're kind of high, low and what you do and what you make. And also what I love about you is you love TV. I'm obsessed with television.

Yeah. I mean. I know, because it raised us. Yeah. It raised me too. It was like, you know, I say two-parent household, my mom and the television. I mean. What were you watching when you were young?

Like, what was on TV? You know, it's interesting. Like, I was a kid in the 90s. And I think that was a really. interesting time for television. I mean, there's a lot of sitcoms happening. Yeah. We got perfect strangers. Yes. You got, okay, the Cosby show, a different world, obviously. But also, you have stuff like Martin and living single and also in living color. And also we had Nick at night where we could watch the old shows like Dick Van Dyke show, like, you know, obviously the Mary Talamore show, which is where I was. You were watching that, Mary. You know what's interesting. I didn't really, it's interesting about like certain music you can't hear. Like when you're young, jazz doesn't make sense to you. Yes. You can't hear it. Yes. Yes. And I think. And I think. And I think. And I think. And I think. And I think. And I think. And I think. And I think. And I think. And I think. And I with Mary, and especially when I got older and I started to watch Friends at Will & Grace. Will and Grace has a sort of speed to it.

And I think with Mary Tyler Moore, it took me a beat because it was a little bit like jazz. It was kind of slow. I mean, like, Chuckles Bites the Dust is one punchline. Like, they're like, we're going to hold, it's like edging for comedy. They're like, we're not giving this to you until the end.

A lot of people might not know that you produced a Mary Tyler Moore documentary. And you, and I talked about this because we were both working on, on, like, comedic legends. I did one about Lucy and Desi. And Mary Tyler Moore is just this great example, I think, of, like, what you talk about, which is TV that felt, like, ahead of its time and also just super cozy. Yeah.

What did you, when you got to know her and her work, like, more, like, it's so well said. It's like a sound. to get used to, like a music you have to get used to. When did you start to understand her music and what made you want to do that project? Well, I think I didn't really understand it until I was in college when I had to sort of watch it. Because I studied writing and producing and television at Columbia College. I did all that. You wanted to be a TV writer at 7.

Yes, I did. How did you know that was a job? You're like, Lena, we thought people were just in the TV talking, making things up. Veterinarian and Astronaut. I know, and Fireperson. I think I just I would see names in the credits And so that's why when I see Susan Fells Hill and Debbie Allen I knew their names before I knew their faces

And he vet Lee before she was in Betty Bowser And of course I came to know all these women, thank God But I just saw that show and I said I want to be a part of this And also I was aware that you know my mother My grandmother, my aunt, the neighbors, We would all gather in my grandmother's bedroom Because that's where the TV was And we were just sit and watch TV and it was very communal

And so that's what I think I knew I wanted to be a part of it. But with Mary, I didn't get it until I was in college. And I got the box set on VHS and watched the best episodes and things like that. And I just sort of was fascinated by her as a human being. So I read her memoir after all when I was in college. And that's what really kind of sent me down a rabbit hole. It was before you could just like Google somebody.

Totally. You had to read about them. And her memoir is so well written. I think it may be out of print. They might have brought it back. But anyway, after all, it was a great memoir where she talks about being an alcoholic. being the daughter of an alcoholic. She talks about losing her son

to an accidental suicide, losing her brother to cancer, losing her little sister to a suicide. I mean, the woman that turned the world on with her smile dealt with a lot of dark things in her life. And that, to me, that sort of juxtaposition was really fascinating. And I was just fascinated by this person. I think, you know, for what she did

for women in comedy, there was something dainty about her, but not precious. Yes. And I definitely think you're one of the descendants of Mary Tyler Moore in terms of someone. Thanks for saying that. She was really important in my house.

My mom, you know, I had a young mom, and my mom used to just, like, love and laugh, love that show and laugh at that show. And it is really interesting when you're a kid, you're paying attention what your parents are laughing at. Absolutely. And she, Mary Tyler Moore was, reminded me of my mom because it was like, she was like getting more, you know, what is it? Getting more flies with honey than, like, she was sweet, but she got her way. and her and Lou Grant like Nick Offerman and I would talk a lot about how Leslie and Ron

had a very similar kind of like you know gruff and you know but Mary Mary was like and she was so like she was you could tell she was genuinely funny and that ensemble on that show was so funny yes and I think that speaks to why you're such a descendant of hers because she knows what it is

to allow people to shine around her to not make it all about her even though it's her show. Yeah. But she wants everybody to shine. Yeah. Carol Burnett was like that too. Exactly.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. She always talks about wanting people to win and succeed. You want to give them the scene if you need to. I love that you were producing that. And you mentioned about watching it on VHS. And I want to talk about VHS because you used to work at Blockbuster. Yes, I did. Okay.

For the kids that don't know. Okay? There are going to be people listening right now that don't understand. Don't make me cry. Don't make me cry. Don't understand how important. Blockbuster was? Well, first of all, what was Blockbuster? Because you were like, it was a paradise, okay? It's a paradise. A library of film and TV. It was everything. I used to go there all the time. That's where you

had to go to watch old stuff, sometimes see new stuff. This is the crazy big. Now you just sit on your couch and hit a button. Then you have to go, you have to go hope that in the new release wall that they weren't all gone. You had to go up and say, oh, does somebody return, you know what I'm saying, face off? Does somebody return face off? No? And I remember you go, for you young people listening, you would go, it was a big date. You get your popcorn, get your candy. Yeah, you'd buy it there. Yeah, you would.

Yeah. And you'd go often with, like, friends or date, and you'd stand in front of a giant wall of titles. Yeah. Just the sleeve. Yeah. And you'd bring the sleeve over to the thing. And, like, if it was there, it usually meant that they had it. But sometimes they did, and they were like, we're out.

Most of the time they did, it was a popular movie. You come in late on a Sunday. Like, do y'all have a Jurassic Park? You have the latest? No, I know. I got the old one. Okay, cool. I'll take that.

And then you'd look and you'd want to get face off and you wouldn't, they wouldn't have it. So you'd be like, what other John Trebles and stuff do you have? Okay, whatever you have? Like, okay, cool. You got powder? Okay, what's happening? I don't know. Like, it's just like the most random.

It's how I got my taste. I would just like rent things based on the cover. I'll rent this. Okay. Did you have to deal with like the blockbuster guys who would like the, you know, there was like the mini Quentin Tarantinos of the world? Who came up who were like directors or want to be? And they wanted to talk to you about.

film and school you. Okay. Not in Chicago. Like, okay. Okay. They were like more so just like very obsessed with whatever they were obsessed with. But it was interesting people coming in there. You know, it's like it was families.

We also get moms saying like, can my son watch this? And you're like, oh, wow. Huh. Like is he into violence and sex? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. He should be watching Jungle Fever.

I don't know. But no, a lot of parents really were concerned about what the movie was and what was happening. and I just was like, I depends on how you want to raise your children, to be honest with you. I don't want to be a part of this conversation. And you got Blockbuster. You were so tight with Blockbuster. You were so good at being a Blockbuster person. Blockbuster employee.

Blockbuster employee. Wait, did you guys party? Did the Blockbuster employees party a lot? The one, LA, we definitely got into some trouble. Like, when I transferred. You got transferred. Well, I asked to be transferred. I mean, which is insane.

That speaks to who I. I said, look, I want to keep this job, transfer me to the one in LA. And they did. And it's like that. You must have been an awesome employee. Oh, I was the best. Of course. I was like on top of it.

Of course. I'm like going through the return bin, making sure it's empty. Yeah. You know, talking to people about movies, making recommendations. Yes. The L.A. one was popping. And then you get to L.A. because why do you want to go to L.A.? Because you want to be acting and writing and you want to...

I went there because there's a semester in L.A. program through Columbia College in Chicago where they send like 12 students to go to Los Angeles to be on a Hollywood lot, you're writing specs, scripts, people don't do that anymore where you write a script of a show that already exists to see you can match the voice. And the crazy thing is I could never crack Parks and Rec, but I did a 30 rock spec and I did a modern family spec. And I love Parks and Rec, but I just could not, I couldn't grab that voice.

I just sort of couldn't do it. And I don't for lack of time, but what you have to kind of do is sit in your studio apartment and trying to like come up like, what's the A story, what's a B story, what's a this? And I was able to kind of like play with those characters, bit more on 30 Rock than I kind of configure on Proxerick. And 30 Rock had like a, like, speaking of rhythm, had like a really percussive, very funny joke per ratio kind of situation. And I know he'd get a lot of fun with the Tracy thing. You know what I'm saying? Like, I think my story for him was like he promised that Obama was

going to be at his birthday party. And, uh, but yeah, that got me out to LA, like writing those specs scripts and stuff like that and being on lots and being an assistant and being an intern. Well, then you assisted Gina Prince Blythwood, who is... Bithwood, she said there's no L in it. It's like Python. When I was her assistant for two years, I have to always help people say her last name. It's the most intense.

Okay, like, it's like, think about Python and Wood and put a Bightwood. Okay. So you're an assistant for Gina, Prince Bithwood. There you go. Okay, Gina, I love your work. Yes, come on. She's going to be so happy.

I'm so sorry. Come on, love a basketball, secret life of bees. Let's go. Incredible. Yes. We had Regina Hall on. We had Viola talking about Woman King. Come on.

When is Gina getting here? I would love to talk to her. She did children of blood and bone. What did you learn from her? Like, what did you learn about being a boss from her? Oh, my God. So much. So much.

She's so talented. Okay, so Gina is very cool. And I would watch her navigate certain situations and she would never raise her voice. She would never lose her temper. Yeah. And I think also, it's so funny, thinking about Mary Tyler Moore, and look at the top of that documentary, this guy is asking her this very offensive, like, question.

Like, can a woman happen at all? Can a woman be married and have a child and have a career? And the thing is, is that Mary kind of just sits there in the cut and just responds in a way that's so eloquent and beautiful. Gina was a version of that for me in terms of in person, in real time, where people would challenge her authority or would ask her if she really knew what she was doing. And Gina would just never be frazzled by it. She would just sort of be calm, respond, and show up and let the works speak for itself. And so that's what I really learned from her. It's like, don't lose your temper.

Let the work speak for itself. And, yeah, does not have a lose your cool. You talk about Aziz. Yes. You talk about getting the part in Master of Nunn, which is where most people met you. Yes. The world kind of got to know you. But you mentioned Allison Jones.

Oh, well. So Allison Jones, who is Allison Jones for people I don't know? She's an iconic casting director. Yeah. And she's someone who's discovered mini talents, and I'm one of them. I give Aziz credit for sure. But he, in a really cool way when he was casting the, what it used to be called, the Untitled Disease Unsarry Project.

He said, I want to just meet with people before I read with them. And he said, I want to meet interesting people. And Allison had met with me, you know, like that year, earlier that year, because she saw something I put on the internet, which was like this pilot presentation, which would ultimately become 20s, which I was not in, because, again, no desire to be an actor. Why no desire? I think because, and it's still my biggest goal is to be a great television writer. that's that's really all I ever wanted to be obviously yeah started from when I was young

I never thought I wanted to be on the screen yeah I think I always wanted to be the person writing the words that they said yes and that was just always what it was and I admire actors a great deal I love a great TV star a great movie star I just didn't want that pressure that came with it and and all that comes with that because it's a lot yeah and and so I when I wrote the pilot presentation for 20s. It was a, I was writing a thinly veiled version of my 20s and myself and my friends and all that. And so it got a little, you know, buzz and people were talking about it.

And I got a call that Allison Jones wanted to meet with me. I didn't even know who she was. I didn't. I was like, why was a casting director want to meet with me? I'm not casting anything. And when I went into, I walked into her office, of course, I walked by the poster for freaks and geeks. I walked by the poster for VEP.

I walked by the poster for bridesmaids. And I'm like, okay, this person. She's getting contented. She knows when the star walks into her office. And so I sat with her and we talked about television and what we like to watch. And what I think what I kind of understood in that moment is that Allison kind of picked up on my taste being very varied and sort of well-round. We talked about Maude. We talked about Ann Martin.

And we talked about all these different things. And she was like, okay. And then she asked me, had I have any desire to be an actor? And I said, no. And she said, okay, do you mind if I bring you in for some things? And I said, sure. And she did. She brought me in for an episode of VEP,

which I completely failed because Julia Louis Dreyfus was in the room and reading with me and I was like, oh, no, I can't, no, this is not about to happen. I don't know what's going on. You were nervous? I didn't know Julia was going to be in there. Right. And so I was like, what?

Right. You walked in and then you're like, oh. I've since become friends with Julia. I love her, her voices in the Bermortown, Doc. Very grateful. She's amazing. Let's work together. Like, okay, what was cool about Allison Jones is that she's like,

okay, I'm not worried about that, bring you in again. for the comeback season two. Right. And I'm a person that had the comeback season one on DVD, watched it with the director's commentary, listened to Lisa and Michael talk about their process and figuring out of value chairs. So I was studying, okay?

That series and all that it was, because I knew when I was watching the comeback when I was in college, in Chicago, still living with my mom. I was like, this is something different and new, and this is crazy that she's coming from friends, and then he's coming from sex in the city, and they're doing this.

Totally. Understood. Got it. I got that at that moment. And the depiction of television writers in that show. Oh, my God. It's like, how much are you? What are y'all talking shit?

Like, what's going on? But also for, I'm going to say Valerie. For Lisa Kudrow to also give you a version of what an actress can be an aging actress and what that can look like and how that can feel and the insecurity. It was crazy. So she called me at first. It was interesting because she was like, do you know what the comeback is? And I said, yeah, I'm obsessed with it.

And she was like, okay, well, they're doing a second season. And I said, okay, what? And she was like, you want to come in? They're doing a press day. There's going to be a bunch of reporters. I think you'd be cool. So she comes in. Luckily, Lisa, nor Michael Patrick here in the room.

Thank God. Yeah, lesson learned. Don't be in the room. Don't let them be in there. So she just put me on tape. I said, like, a line. And then I got the call that Michael, and Michael was directing that episode.

And so he picked me, thank God. And that was actually my TV debut, me being like one of the reporters for her press conference or whatever. And so me being on that set was, to me, that was one of those moments, one of those God moments. That was a big moment for me. And I remember I had a pitch from my line the way I could say it a little bit better. And that's always a tricky thing because I'm like, oh, I don't be that person. I got one line.

I have a thought on it. But Michael Patrick King, to his credit, who I love, and he's been a wonderful mentor of mine. He's also kind of gotten on me a little bit too. And he thinks I'm being a little too big for my britches. But he heard it and he said, yeah, that's better. That's better. better. And then, of course, later, Allison was talking to Aziz, and he said, who were some interesting people? And she said, oh, I think you should be lean away. Then that's how I literally

went to his home, literally pulled up to his house, walked in, sat with him and Alan. Yeah, Alan Yang, who was a writer on Parks, Red, who created Master of Nunn with Aziz. Yes, I mean, those two. And I just sat with them. And I think I was prepared for that moment, because it was weird because I was so used to doing staffing meetings. Yeah. So for people they don't know, like a staffing meeting when you're a writer and you're trying to get a job. You kind of do like a general meeting. Yeah. You sit and talk about yourself.

And you like, you know, they've often read a script of you as whether it be a spec or an original. And they talk about that, talk about your life. And I just sat in front of them and I was not unlike this. I was very comfortable in my skin. I just falling in love with somebody. I was talking about all kind of stuff. And they just sort of kind of, we talked like 30 minutes and three of us.

And then that was it. And then I got a call that he wanted me to come read with him. It's so interesting you're talking about writers taking me. is because I think for people that are listening, like, I don't think enough people know that writing for television, a lot of it is about, like, will you be a person that people just want in the room? That's right.

That's right. You got to be chill. You got to be laid back. You got to be a team player. You got to know when to be quiet. You got to know when to speak up. You got to know the hierarchy. You got to know the politics of the room.

Have you always known how to do that? Because you were so naturally good at it, Lena. I mean, I know how to play my position. And I was a staff writer twice before I sold my own show. So when you're a staff writer, you really are there just your help in hand. And you can't. Also what I learned is that it's not your job to fix the show. And a lot of people come in there going, okay, I got it.

I know how to get us that in me, you know what I'm saying? It was never, never that. Even when I did get handed an episode to write obviously in season two of Master of Nine, which ultimately became the Thanksgiving episode. Which one in the Emmy? Oh, I'm very grateful. First Black woman ever been. I was standing writing in comedy series.

Come on. Aziz knew what was up. You know, I didn't actually want to write that episode because I wanted to keep it separate. A lot of people, oh, yeah, you wrote on my astronaut. I was like, season one, I didn't write on the show at all. Now, mind you, you know how it is. When you're in between takes and you're talking,

and Aziz is like, oh, I'm putting that in. I'm throwing that in. I'm like, okay, bad, cool. Yeah. But with season two, and him and Alan asked, well, how did you come out? And I told them the story, they were like, okay, that's an episode.

We got to do that. And I was like, okay, cool, y'all write it. I'm going to go do the Spielberg movie And Aziz, I'll never forget he said He said if you don't co-write this We're not doing the episode I just was feeling like Not overwhelmed

But I was about to go do Ready Player 1 Yeah And I was going to be in London And that was my first feature And I didn't want to mess that up I mean, come on Come on Where do you go from there

But he came to London To his credit And we a weekend when I was not working And we sat in the hotel room His hotel room And just like two days Cranked it out Knocked it out.

When you were, when you were, like, digging deep for that story, your story, did you have any, like, did you think about what you wanted to keep for yourself and what you wanted to give to the show? It's tricky, right? I mean, it's such a beautiful episode. And it's so, and it really spoke to so, and Angela. Oh, my, Angela Bassett, are you kidding me? Come on. What? I was like, she didn't go say no.

I was like, there's no way she comes. You had not met her. You had not met her. Obviously, obsessed with her. Yeah. You know, Aziz and I both are obsessed with Jackson 5 of American Dream. That's what you named the character, Catherine. Like, but I just was like, she's not going to do it, bro.

I was like, you're nuts. Melina Matsukas, directed the episode beautifully. Kim Whitley is an episode. What did I want to keep? I think what I wanted to do was be as vulnerable as I could on the page. Yeah. And I think it was so interesting about it, which I think surprised Allen and disease. They thought that religion was a big part of my story.

terms of why my family wasn't really that embracing of my sexuality. But it really was more about what would the neighbors think, not what will God think. And that was something that was unique. One of my favorite moments in the episode is not unlike in real life when I told my mom I was gay. She looked around to see if anybody heard. Like, I'm in a diner. It's like, these are strangers. Like, who cares what these other people think?

And I think that spoke so much to, I don't know, like who I am. I don't think me being queer makes me more noble, more special, more interesting. And it's just a part of my humanity. And I think that's what I'm really trying to do in that scene. It's trying to show my mother her own child's humanity. Yeah, yeah, beautiful. I mean, so beautifully done, so recognized for such, like, it was recognized for such special work. Congratulations on winning that Emmy.

Beautiful speech, too. Your Emmy speech is so good. You're so cool and relaxed. Lena, you were up there, like, you just, like, no nerves. Yo, I mean, well, look, it's, you never know. You know how this goes. Okay, but you never know. And some people, it was interesting.

But you're relaxing. You relax people. Wow, I appreciate that. Because you feel relaxed. Is that true? Are you relaxed inside your head? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I know what you mean.

I think there was a lot of talk. I was up against two episodes of Atlanta, by the way, one, okay? And that was like... Those were tough years, the competitive years. Okay. But I'll give it to Donald Glover. We were at the Chateau. I'll never forget it the night before.

You know, there's all these parties the night before. And Donald said to me, with very confidence and cool about him that he has, he said, you're going to take the writing one. You're going to take it. And I was like, I don't know, man. I was like, I don't know. He said, no, you got it. He's like, you got it.

And Sterling Kay Brown was like, you're going to take it. So I'm getting this weird. People are like, you got it. It's yours. You got it. I'm going like, oh, I don't know. It's yours to lose now. I know it's yours to lose.

I was like, ah! And then, you know, the history that came with it. Yeah. You know, and you just had Mindy here, she's one of the first woman of color to be nominated in that category for Outstanding Writing in the Comedy Series for the episode of The Office.

And Wanda Sykes won, but for sketch comedy writing, which was for Chris Rock's show. And so when they told me, when the Academy said, no, you're the first African American woman to ever be nominated for Outstead and Writing in a Comedy Series for the Primetime Emmy War. I was like, oh, huh, okay. And I think that just it brought a different level of weight to it.

Yeah. And I think what I wanted to do, I did think about Hallie Berry winning that Oscar. And I remember watching and crying. And I was in Chicago, so it was late as hell. It was like, my mom had gone to bed. She said, I hope the black woman win. I was like, I know who will see. And I remember that speech.

And she was very emotional and rightfully so. But I loved how she sort of channeled the women that had come before her. For sure. You know, and I think what I wanted to do was to honor Susan Fields Hill, Debbie Allen, Vellie, Belie, Bowser, junior prince byth, all these women that had been in television writers' rooms that had influenced me and also wanted to be a moment for the queer community as well for us to be seen and just for black women that wanted to write TV comedy. Totally.

It's like, it was a moment for all of us. You spoke about this too, which is like comedy, which also just, you know, I think like any, any person that feels like they have to, any person that feels like they're representing a lot of history and a lot of people, that isn't always the easiest thing for comedy. Right. Yeah.

Because comedy, it's like, there's nothing worse than being like, I'm going to write something very important. Like, fuck and hell. What? I mean, come on. Like, you know, you're like, I'm going to write a classic sketch. I have a white woman everywhere. Yeah, I'm going to change some minds with my comedy that's like,

oh, oh. It's like, I'm glad that that episode meant so much to so many people. You must have people all the time coming up and talking to you about it, right? Yes, yes. That's cool. People you wouldn't expect. A lot of straight white dudes say they love it, which is always fascinating to me. I bet you have a lot of straight white dude fans.

I do, interestingly enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they love Master of None. They love Ready Player 1. Yeah, exactly. This episode is brought to you by Cozy. You know that feeling when you walk into a room and everything just works? The sofa, the bookshelf, the coffee table, the rug?

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Thank you for giving you a happy childhood. Yeah, like everything you've ever done is in my head forever. Yeah. But what was he like to be, what was it like to be directed by him? He's like the best dad you could ever ask for. And I always say he's a giant that doesn't make you feel small. That's, that's who he is. He's very aware of his bigness.

He's aware of the history that walks into the room when he does. And he's really good at disarming people and making you not be nervous about it. And he was not in the room as well when I auditioned for Ready Player 1. Thank God. He hired me off of a tape. Like, you know, like I came in, obviously for Ellen Lewis, who's also another iconic casting director. And I could tell when I walked in the room, I was just very comfortable that she saw something. Yeah.

And then brought me in again. And I think she had a conversation with Stephen. And I think that was a part of how I got in that film. But he just, he took to me. And it's so funny. There's a level of trust that was there before. even getting on the set. And one day he said,

Lena, I could tell you to like run off this cliff and you would do it. I said, yep. Yep. That's how much I trusted him and you will, you will, you'll follow him until the end of the earth

because you know that his heart is in the right place. You know that he wants to make something classic, something iconic. I feel like you like when there's like a strong leader. I do, actually. Like you relax. Yeah.

And I sort of like when a person is leading with their heart. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And just sort of has everybody's best interest in mind. Are you the kind of person, if there's no leader, it'll be you?

Look, it depends on the situation. It's like, do I need to get in here? Because I don't want to feel like I have to control everything. I don't want to be that person. Why not? You're like, you don't. If you seem like you know how to do it. I mean, somebody's going to do it.

I mean, so first of all, a lot of my friends have felt like, oh, really? You don't want to control everything later? Like a trip. If you're going on a trip with your friends, are you the person that plans a trip? I want to sort of curate the experience. more so than control it. Which is just the same thing. Okay, God, I'm in therapy right now.

Got it. This is me creating words. You're like, Lena, you're controlling. You're curating it. But see, I love that because that's your love language. Right. I want to make sure we have a good time. I just want to talk about Shai for a second.

Congratulations on it. Like, you're now, it's done. Yeah, almost. Like, whenever this airs, it will have been done. Wonderful. Perfect. And you are going to be like, you will have, you know, successfully wrapped eight seasons.

of a show, which never happens. How long did Parks and Redgo? You can't even remember. Oh, this is a good question. The fact that you don't know off top seven or eight. So it tells me everything I want to know. It's the seven or eight.

This is why we had to stop because people were like, you could have went 10. You not knowing is everything I want in life. Okay? I know Mary Tillamore went seven seasons. The first iteration of Second City went six. Will and Grace was eight seasons. I think we did.

This is what happens. you make television. Also, you forget. This is called menopause. Okay. I'm Perry. I'm Perry. Here we go.

I'm Perry. I'm Perry. Hey, come on. It's so fun. Look, night sweats. Oh my God. It's so great. Night sweats, baby.

Parks and Rec had seven seasons. Wow. So you're very Mary Tell them more. Okay. I'm one more than you. And yeah, and you guys did eight and, you know, people might not know. We have an extended season. Season six was 16 episodes.

I, that, I've heard you talk about that where they were like, we love it. more and you're like, this is so great. Yay! Nightmare! Because people don't understand. Took me out. I'm like, I like 10, baby. I like 10. I like 10. I'm cable. What are we doing? When you, we used to do 20, we had really uneven seasons. Like, we had six seasons, six episodes the first season.

And then I think it was insane. 21 and then 24 and then 16. Which is normal. And then at the time we, I think we were in the 20s. And to do 20 episodes. of TV, as people will probably notice, from episode 14, 14 and 60, got a little goofy. A little goofy. Because you start an arc that ends, like, you know, at about episode 11 or 12, and

then you've got to kind of start another one that's going to take you to the end of the season. And in between, you're like, let's have an episode where we're all, like, you know. Just, what to treat yourself happen, though? Great question. Just because, like, that feels like, you, as an audience member, you wonder, is that y'all just being tired and landing on something iconic? Or is it like we're, this is something we think could actually really take.

Season four, episode four. So we were a little fresh. We were still a little fresh. Yeah. That feels about right. Yeah. Because that was something that just stuck. It's still, I still get those gifts from people.

Like, they're just like, treat us. Self 2011. Come on, man. What? And we still, like, we'll say it. Written by Alan Yang, that episode. Come on, Alan Yang. That's a good one.

And congratulations on a incredible run. Thank you so much. I mean, it does not happen anymore. I know. And it is. The Lassad of Mohicans. Yeah, it's so true. And, and, you know, like, you also, you, we didn't even really talk about it,

but, you know, we both spent time in Chicago. You were born in Chicago. So it's such a love letter to that city. And it's also like just like the city. It's over the past eight years, the show and its relationship to the city has changed. Like it's, it's, it, do you have people from Chicago feel like real ownership of that show? How do they talk to you about the show when they talk to you about it? I mean, they're mad that it's going away.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're like, what? Just you can do it forever. I'm like, I don't know if I could do that. I was like, I want to do some other stuff. But they feel like these characters are their family. Yeah. And they feel very connected to them.

I remember when Parks and Rec went, when you guys closed the curtains and you guys were doing all the press. And I remember watching all those interviews and watching all of you because there was a person that watched the entire series, it does feel like a part of you is like not going to be there anymore. Yeah. And so. Like you're going to miss the characters.

You're going to miss the characters. I'm going to miss the people, the writers. You know how that is. It's just, it's a family. It becomes a family, even though it can be dysfunctional sometimes and it's work. But you realize how special that is to make something that the world watches and that people care about. I want to do a very quick speed around about Chicago. Coldest you've ever been.

Oh, my God. Let me tell you something. Winters, as you know, in Chicago, are just relentless. They're relentless. They test. you. I think it's why I'm so cool. I think you're right. I think that there's like a Midwestern thing. First of all, nobody ever talks about the weather because it's like, what's the point? What's the point? It's like, accept it. Deal with it. Yeah, like no one walks around saying it's cold.

Like, I'm waiting on a bus in Chicago, okay? On the train. Yes. And the cold weather walking from the train station to my home. Yeah. Like, you don't, don't, don't talk to me. Like, I don't, nothing scares me. Like, I'm not. bothered by you or your attitude, like, I've had to walk and snow to get to where I had to go on a trade, on the bus, like waiting on a bus, in the cold? Yes. Don't talk to me, man. Don't do it. Okay, best concert or best music you've ever seen there.

Best concert. Oh, see, here's the deal. I've got to do, too. Okay. Prince and Whitney. Oh, my. What? I know.

But here's a deal. I would have loved to have seen Whitney. Talk about musicality. Here's a deal with a big influence my mom had on me. She did not like the fact that I couldn't hear Prince. Prince when I was young. I heard you talk about this. I love this.

Say that. Not. I just didn't get it. And she would play Prince a lot. Well, you might have also been like, like, nobody wants to, like, be into what their mom is into, even if they have the coolest mom. The coolest mom. Like, if you're like, this is really great.

Your kids just like, they want to be their own person. Maybe was that? I don't know. I don't know. Okay. She would play him a lot, which would, like, make sense now. You think about it in the car, in the house. And I just was like, like, I just was like.

like a young person that just said, I don't, what is this? What's happening? And so now, fast forward, he's coming to Chicago. And I'm in college and she's like, you're coming. And I said, why would I want to go to a concert of somebody whose music I don't like? And she said, because you don't understand and you need to understand. And no child of mine is not going to be a fan of friend. I mean, this is really, she's not joking. Her friend, Monique, day in the front seat, I'm in the back, upset and we're going, I think it's like United Center or something, I don't know, and we pull up and I go into this concert and I am like baptized in a way by his music and I hear it for the first time. Wow.

And I'm like standing my mom or her friend, they just have the best time and I'm just just in awe. Yeah. And remember I still have a t-shirt. We got a t-shirt from that concert. I still have it. And I walked out of there different. and I went and bought all the, then you can go to a record store, I went and bought all the records and was like listening to everything.

You went to blockbuster, you got all the movies. Watch Purple Rain. It just really was educated. And it was one of those things where I was really grateful that she was like, you need to know what this is. And then fast forward, I'm in L.A. And there's a whole, like, you know,

a sit at the forum and for a while. And I would go to those concerts and like listen. And I have him tattooed on the back of my leg now. Like I have a prince tattoo on the back of my leg. And then Whitney Houston, which I also have her tattooed here on my arm, paparazzi photo of her sticking her tongue out.

I'm just, I've been a Whitney girl since, you know, her greatest love of all. And I'm not alone in that, you know, growing up in the 90s and being born in the 80s, she was it. She was it. There was no there's no one else. There is nothing else. And I just remember

finally, like being in the same space. And she was, and my love is your love really was like a comeback, speaking to the comeback. Yeah. It was her sort of coming back and saying like, I'm not done yet. I'm not done. You know, we got, we, we, we don't, I'm, I'm still here and I still have a voice and I still matter.

And I didn't even understand the significance of that, you know, as a young person, but I remember like, oh, we're coming out with new music. What? Oh, man, it ain't a greatest hits. It's just, she's coming out with some new stuff. And, and that was even really important for me to see that for her to say, this is where I am now in my life. And I'm going to be rocking with Wycleft.

and Missy Elliott and Rodney Jerkins and Lauren Hill and these people are who they are without me being who I am. And I remember that album and those videos and me just feeling really, and I have a T-shirt from that one, which I, which I wear often. God.

It's something about those shirts and those shirts. When you go to concerts, like grab a T-shirt, do something. I know. There's so many concerts I, like I regret. Like one of my, I went to, like, New Edition was one of my first concerts. Come on. That's why we love you. God.

You can come to the cookout. You're coming. You're there. You're awesome. Come on. You're with us. We love you. I'm really, Bobby Rick and Mike.

Come on. My little girl, who cares? But, man, I wish I had a T-shirt. I went to a Janet Jackson concert in Chicago. The Rhythm Nation, I still have that one. Like, the merch shirts, there's something of, it's a piece of history. The fact that I can still fit my damn Rhythm Nation shirt. Well, can I talk to you about the way you dress for a second?

Please. Do it. Because I love it. Thank you. And you have such good style. Honestly, a lot of times when I see you at events, I'm a little jealous of how comfortable you look compared to everybody else. It's the perk of being a lesbian. There's so many perks.

Yeah, so many perks. So we don't have to deal with men. Like, I mean, that's the main one. We really are looking at y'all. Hardest Jenna's ever laugh. That male ego. It is. It's so true.

It's so true. It's so true. And like your style, I love your style. And it's very you. It's really like it's always changing. It's always interesting. It is like always right for the event that you're at. But you are never like, it's just like you as a person. You're just never trying to hard.

True. And it's always cool. Thank you so much. And do you have a style? You pick all this stuff yourself? Well, it's so funny because I do. Jason Bolden. who is Cynthia's like, he's actually her style.

He would joke and be like, I'm your stylist too sometimes. Yeah, yeah. But they actually do a real work. They like doing stuff and having conversations. So Rupal always says everybody's in drag. And I think for me, I want to feel how on the outside how I feel on the inside. And I just feel comfortable in the way that I dress.

And I always want to feel comfortable. Me too. I never want to feel like I'm trying to be something I'm not or make someone else feel comfortable. I don't want someone else. comfort to be a priority. When did you figure out your own style? When did you always have it? You know what's so interesting because I'm doing a clothing line right now called proximity.

All right. With the designer, her name is Knox and she's from New York and she, you know, I like to wear. Because I just want to wear designers that reflect who I am. She's a queer black woman and we're friends and we were like, and this is, you know, part of what she's doing. Like she made this for me and I wore this to a premiere of him. I'm wearing it again. I like repeating things as well.

I'm just letting folks know that like every outfit doesn't have to be new or different. But I think I sort of, I used to wear those T-shirts where they was the whole time people wearing T-shirts with like a whole paragraph. It was like a little funny joke. That was a thing I was doing so much. I was like, Lord help me. So glad I grew out of that. But then I got into vintage like stuff, like vintage and things like that that meant something to me.

And I was like, okay, cool. And then I got, you know, making a little bit of money. I was like, okay, cool. I get a little designer thing here. There was the thing where you wanted the designer brand there so people know you wear in Valentino. Then you get old and you realize I don't want nobody to know that I got Valentino on.

Let it be, you know, as Rashida does quiet luxury. Yes. You know, the white t-shirt costs 500 dollars. I mean, listen, I'm always asking Rashida. I'm like, what is the goat? And she's like, she's right now, she's in the biggest clothes I've ever seen. Okay.

Everything is gigantic, Japanese. Oh, my God. Everything. She walks in. I'm like, is this what we're doing now? It looks incredible. Everything she's wearing is incredible. She's so chic and just easy.

Like I took a lot of tips where I said, okay, the little plain, little jacket, a little this little. I steal a little bit with Rashida. I'm like, okay, Rashid's. But I think style is not unlike your voice. So you have to try different things, find it over time. But I do think my queerness does lend itself to my style. And a little big part of it is because I don't live under the male gays. I don't have this desire to impress dudes.

or we'll even impress like women. I'm just sort of, I'm like, what looks good to me? Well, this is kind of a segue, which is you're the producer right now on a show that is like all about people who are celebrating the way in which they've discovered who they are. And it is a show called Jellicle Ball. This is true. Cats, the Jellicle Ball. Cats, the Jellicle Ball. Your producer on it.

Yes, one of the co-producers. And talk about, um, watching it in real time, people, like, figuring out, like, how I want to, how I want to be in the world. Not only how I want to dress, but how I want to move, how I want to be an artist. Like, how did you get involved in working with that show? When did you first see it and why did you want to be part of it? Well, thank God. Cynthia saw it first.

She was here in New York and went to see that pack when it was off Broadway. And she called and she said, you got to see the show. You got to come down. You got to come in New York to see it. I was like, okay. And I bet people might be, like, a little intimidated when Cynthia, Revo's in the audience. That would be, I would be like...

I think they were very excited and ready to show off their skills when she was there. She guest judged over there at Pack. And so she called me, she was like, there was something as a level of intensity in somebody's voice where they're like, now you need to come. And so I was like, okay, so I came, saw, and was blown away and said, okay, well, this should transfer to Broadway. I'm hoping if it does. I said, I think we should be producers on it.

And it wasn't the easiest thing, I think, because, you know, there's a lot of producers and Broadway shows, and there's certain requirements and things that people need. And we just said, trust us. Like, we need to be a part of this because we want to make sure everybody knows about it. We want to get out there and, like, wave the flag and be on this amazing podcast and talk about it

and all that stuff. And so we were grateful to the lead producers that said, yeah, you guys should come on and be a part of this. And, you know, speaking of Blockbuster, I watched Paris as Burning, that documentary because it was on the shelf. And I saw it one day and I said, I'm going to watch this doc.

And I never stopped watching it. And I kept rewatching it again and again and again. and I was seeing what I wanted to be. I was seeing these people with these big personalities and saying funny things. They're hilarious. We go back and watch Paris as Burning. There's just joke, joke, joke.

They're not even trying. They're just being hilarious. And I mean, that to me is like real love languages. When people like tease each other. Oh my gosh. It's like, it's the most delicious. Yeah, the white version is tease. Black versions throw shade.

You know what I'm saying? It's like we're throwing shade. We're like being fierce. We're talking trash. And so I just loved. that how the what that Paris is burning really obviously helped to influence you know cast a jellical ball and also influence pose and things like that but to see junior LaBaja who was in the documentary and a lot of people in the documentary have since passed away

for him to be on that stage every night and being able to feel that love and receive it I'm honored to witness it and I've seen it twice obviously on Broadway obviously once on off Broadway and it's something that just brings me so much joy well we got to talk to the directors oh Oh, come on. The Tony Award winning directors. That's what they are now. They're the best.

And we got to talk well behind your back with them. Oh, my goodness. These two, the dynamic duo. First of all, I was very stressed. I felt like they brought way too many relatives to the Tony. Well, come on. I know, but they had a lot of people in those seats. Yeah.

And at one point they were saying they had to talk to everybody and I was like, no, you don't. Look. It's your night. Yeah. But they spoke. course so beautifully about just what you were saying, which is that you guys, you and Cynthia like use your currency to get this show where it needed to be and you saw something right away that that meant so much to them. And that, you know, that is kind of you in a nutshell,

Lena. Like you are, you are an artist who really loves other artists. You really support and like what you like and you, when you like something you really want people to know about it. Like you are, you know, you're a mentor for so many people and you're also just like never forgetting that you're a fan and a student at the same time. It's awesome. Thank you. And they love working with you. And they had a couple questions for you. Oh my goodness. Ebony and Ivory. Okay. And so Jalen's question was, who is the person that you see on the dance floor or what kind of person do you see on the dance floor that gets you excited that makes you think this is going to be a good party? Oh, like who do I, if I see them on the dance floor is going to be a good

time? You know what I mean? Who are you looking for? Might not even be a specific person, but a kind of person. Wow. A kind of party. You know what's interesting because I love, I love to dance, but I don't necessarily need to be in the center. I know because you're cool. I don't need to be in the center. I know. I know. That's what cool people do. They dance on the side. They dance on the side. I'm on the side. I'm in the cut.

You know what I mean? I know. Oh. I know barely moving looking cool. I get it. Not breaking a sweat. You mean you're not break dancing in the middle? Like the person that's like up and pumping going for it?

But you know what though? I fuck with those people though. Yeah. Yeah. Because you need that person. Party pumper. You need the Beyonce. I'll tell you what I can bring to a party.

What's that? I'll be the first. one on the dance floor. Yeah, you will. Because you're not, you don't have any qualms about it. And somebody's got to start it and nobody wants to. And we've been a like industry pressure where it's like, there's a great DJ.

Nobody's dancing. We got to start this. Like, what are we going to talk to me? Like, enough of that. And I will, I'll sacrifice myself and be number one. Hopefully a friend. But maybe sometimes.

That's why you're the cool. That's why I love reading bossy pants. I love that section about you. When Tina says like when Amy got in there, it was like, oh, things have changed. Things are going to be different. out here. Such a great passage

where she talks about you coming to SNL. And I think that's a reflection of you at a party. Like you're not afraid to be the first. I'll be embarrassed.

I don't care. Which is what makes you amazing. But what, who do you like to see? What type of person? What type of person? Or like, is there a friend that you're like,

okay, they're here. You know what? I like a person who can actually dance. Like, I'm not skilled. You're not taught. We're just going off. of the vibes.

Who's a good dancer? Well, a lot of the cast from cats. Like, we have an after party. Oh, yeah. I'm like, oh, yeah. I'm not even doing a two-step over here. I'm going to let y'all do what you doing. Yeah.

Like, yeah, I think a lot of the drag queens, like, are doing a different kind of vibe because they know choreography. Yes. That's the thing. Like dancers and performers, I really love watching them. Because there's an art to it. There's something to it. I was saying earlier, it's like magic.

It is. It is. I like watching people dance. That's why I don't, I'm like, I don't want to get in the way. I don't want to just like catch a vibe, be a part of the groove. But I love watching people that actually know how to dance because I could watch them all night. Okay. And the last question today is what do you, because I know you love, you're like a culture vulture.

You keep up. Yeah. What right now are you watching, listening to? Oh my goodness. What are you into? give me some wrecks. It could be a video that you can't stop watching. It could be...

So much. And like, let's let's let have it be funny. Okay, I can't watch anymore. I know. I'm sorry. I know. I'm about to go half man. Sorry.

Yeah, exactly. I was about to say you were going to go half man and baby reindeer. Okay, I'm looking to last. I know. I know. I know. I know. I think that's technically a comedy.

I know. Oh, God. Okay. Damn. Are you a couple's therapy, girl? Okay, couples therapy. The most recent season? Okay.

Okay, first of all, who do we want to tell? I'll take it away from this specific couple and just say in general, what is so good about couple therapy? Please. I think is that you watch it and you're like, I got these stupid. You think you, like you're always proven a little wrong. Every time. Oh, my gosh.

I am anyway. Like, it's like, I know what this problem is. This person, this person. You think you're good. I like therapy. Yeah. And then they start to talk and you're like, oh, they're not. here for that. They're here for the other thing. And also, I don't know what I'm talking.

You know, like, we don't know anyone's shit. I'm not smart. Like, I'm not Dr. Orno. Like, she has a PhD. Exactly. Like, I love being proven wrong because I'm like, that guy is not right for her. And she's too, whatever. And then it's like, no, you're not, you're wrong. Like, you're not, you don't know. And the way in which you watch how communicate, how different everybody's communication styles are very different. Everybody should be watching couples therapy. I agree. Whether you're in a relationship or not. Absolutely right. Okay. You learn so much about yourself. You learn so much. And those couples are awesome for

participating in it. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Truly. Because what I also learn is that we all have childhood traumas. Mm-hmm. Usually comes out around episode four. Uh-huh. Yeah. And it's never what you expect. Nope. ever. And you see how that is playing out in their relationship. Yeah. And my hope is, and also, you know, I've been therapists. I'm in therapy.

I'm in therapy. I'm a therapist. Sorry about it, relax. But I've learned a lot about myself in terms of how I show up as an adult based on how I was raised. I mean, so it sounds very simple and easy to understand, but you sometimes have to really question your own behavior. Like, why did I do this? Why did I behave this way? Totally. Why am I struggling with boundaries? Like, what is that it? And it's like, oh, because I didn't have, my mom didn't have boundaries with me when I was a kid. And so now I have

to learn that for myself as an adult or my partner has an abandonment wound. And so when I go quiet or I leave without saying goodbye, it triggers her in a way that I wouldn't think it would. And so, and that's why I think learning and therapy that vulnerability is a strength. and a lot of people want to protect that or I don't want to tell you this hard thing. And the thing I learned too is like, truth does no harm. And so I've had to get really honest with like people I love or saying like, hey, this is a part of me that I'm ashamed of

or I'm embarrassed by, but I want to say it out loud and see where you stand, not to test you to see if you'll stay, but rather so you know exactly who I am and you can make an informed decision about whether or not you want to stay. It's that's so well said. And you, Lena, you just said something that wrote,

like, I watch it a lot to just get scripting for how to say things. Wow, that's good. Because it's like, sometimes I'll break the window and there's a door right next to it

that's open. Like, you want to get something out, but the way you say it, it's like, it's good practice. Just what you just said. Like,

hey, I want to share this thing with you and I want to know how you feel. But, like, just the gentle way into the vulnerability. is like just practice

because if you don't see it, you know, if you don't see, you don't have tools or practice to figure out how to talk to people about how you feel, then it just can be like either shocking

or like you said, like we withdraw or we like over. Humans are fascinating. Really, and I think that's why I love the show so much. And it's so interesting because, you know, I hear sometimes single people, particularly in this current case,

single women, whoever has a certain age, and like I'm single. And the only way I want to relate, relationship as if it brings joy to my life or if it makes me happier. And it's so funny because I always think that is not how our relationship feels. Like that's not how that goes. Like if you expect somebody to come and bring just joy and happiness and fun or romance,

like, no, it's like imagine looking in a mirror all the time. Yeah, a real true relationship makes you confront the stuff in yourself. That you want to run away from. Totally. We are fascinated with the beginnings of things. We're fascinated with the like young people, young love, people falling in love. We're just so into it. And then everybody gets there and then we never ask them another question again.

We never talk to people who've been married for 10 years and like, how is it going? What's going on? Whatever. We're just like interested in who people are dating or when they break up or whatever. But the middle, the in between is like nobody even, nobody talks about it. They don't. Nobody asks any questions about it. And it's the same way with, like, I'm finding the same way with, like, middle age.

Like, people are really fascinated with, like, you know, young people on the rise. And they're fascinated with, like, the gravitas of being a legend. And you're like, there's a lot of middle here. Yeah. There's a lot of things happening. That's true. You know, I mean, like, I'm 42. And so I think.

Little baby, little tiny baby. What? Forty-two. So. cute. Okay. No, no. No, 42. 42 is interesting. It's interesting. Millennials are old now. I know. It's weird. I feel it. I'm like, I'm a young elder. I'm childless by choice. Have no desire to raise children. But I think what you're saying in terms of the falling, the newness of something. I think that to me is something I do get a little frustrated with. We romanticize the meet cute.

Oh, yeah. And the meat cute. It was cool. It's great. Yeah. But I think what I'm learning so much is the comfort being comfortable in the boredom. Yes. Comfortable and the quiet. Or how about this? What is contentment?

Like what is contentment? Because familiarity breeds contempt. That's right. And, oh, let me talk about this forever. I know. We got to go in the plan. I mean, because there's nothing like, I mean, I'm sure you watch couples therapy. We'll wrap it up by saying couple syrup can kind of feel like almost like a board game

where you're watching after many seasons. and then a person will say something and their partner will be like, ugh, and roll their eyes and you're like, and there it is. Couples therapy is so good. It's just great. Like, everybody's my big thing.

Couple's therapy, and I'm trying to think that there's like... Everybody just watch as much therapy as I can. I know, and like music, I'm trying to think, I don't have my phone, but like, please listen to Tim's, T-E-M-S, amazing singer. Love Tim. She's great. That Lauren Hill tribute.

Phenomenal. Jesus great. Lauren had to get up there. say, I can't let y'all do a tribute without me being a part of it. I know. She said, let me get up here and do my song. One album, but technically people sleep on unplug. Go listen to Lauren Hill, unplug, back on MTV used to do that.

I love that album. Her voice is like scratchy and she's real. She doesn't bend through some stuff. Yeah. It's like the album post success. Yeah. Telling you about some shit. But God, it would have taken, I would have, I wish, like, I wish there was like

10 more albums from her. But see, here's the deal. We can't demand labor. I know. We have to just, I know. We really got to get out of here. I know. I'm probably late for another hang that I was supposed to have. And they're like, what was you doing hanging with Amy? Classic. That's what we would do.

Thank you for coming and doing this. This was so fun. Thank you so much, Lena Waith. That was so fun. I could have talked to you forever. And we talked about so many great things. And so for this polar plunge, I just want to remind everybody how incredible Debbie Allen is. If you haven't seen her work, Debbie Allen was, well, she kind of broke into the scene for us anyway in a show called Fame where she plays this incredible. dance teacher. And Debbie herself is a choreographer, an actress and producer. And she was Lydia Grant, who was telling Leroy to find the soul within him to learn how to dance. And she has, she's, she did a million episodes of a different world. You can catch her talking to Lena Waith on her podcast, Legacy Talk. They have an incredible conversation. And she's the sister of Felicia Rashad from the Cosby Show. I mean, talent family up the wazoo. So, DeVie. Abby Allen, if you're listening, I love you. Thank you for being so talented in so many things. Thank you for listening. Thank you for doing the podcast, Lena. And thanks everybody. And we'll see you soon. Bye. You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss Berman, and me, Amy Poehler. The show is produced by The Ringer and Paper Kite. For The Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Katz-Felaine, Kaya Zanaris. For Paper Kite, production by Sam. Green, Joel Lovell, and Jenna Weiss Berman. Original music by Amy Miles.