Good Inside with Dr. Becky - If I Don’t Punish My Kid, How Will They Learn?

Episode Date: August 2, 2022

Time-out. Dinner without dessert. No screen time. If you’re like most parents, you’ve reached your wit’s end and threatened your kid with one (or all!) of these consequences. Then the next day�� they’re back to throwing blocks. How many times do you have to yell, “If you throw that block one more time, no ______!” What if we told you there was a better way? In this week’s episode, Dr. Becky explores the problem with consequences and how you can parent much more effectively without them. Don’t worry: This doesn’t mean letting your kid “get away” with challenging or dangerous behavior. It means embodying your authority, connecting to your child, and teaching them the life-long skills they need to manage big feelings. If you love the Good Inside approach *and* struggle with the idea of no consequences, one thing is true: This episode is for you. Join Good Inside Membership: https://bit.ly/3cqgG2A Follow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinside Sign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletter Order Dr. Becky's book, Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, at goodinside.com/book or wherever you order your books. For a full transcript of the episode, go to goodinside.com/podcast

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Hi, I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. I'm a clinical psychologist and mom of three on a mission to rethink the way we raise our children. I love translating deep thoughts about parenting into practical, actionable strategies that you can use in your home right away. One of my core beliefs is that we are all doing the best we can with the resources we have available to us in that moment. So even as we struggle and even as we are having a hard time on the outside, we remain good inside. This episode is all about consequences and punishments.

And it's about why I don't think consequences or punishments are part of effective parenting. Before we get into the rest of the episode, I want us to all consider this. Our children will all get to an age, or they don't care about our punishments, where they won't have to listen to our consequences. I always think about a couple I saw for years who came to me to talk about their 16-year-old child, who had problem behavior for a while, but now things were so escalated where he refused to go to school. He essentially said to them,

I don't care about your sticker charts. I don't care about your punishments. I don't care about your consequences because I'm big now and you can't enforce any of them. What this made me think about was the way where if we parent our children through a schedule of punishment and consequences, we miss out on years of developing a relationship with them. And that's all we have with our kids from their teenage years and on.

The quality of our relationship. That's why kids come to talk to us, that's why they still want to see us, that's why they listen to us once they're physically in a place where they don't have to listen to us. There are so many other reasons why consequences and punishments really aren't part of effective parenting, but please keep that larger picture in mind. And remember, there are so many ways we can respect our kids, preserve a relationship with them, and respect ourselves and hold boundaries and teach them the skills they really need in the first place. So with all that in mind, let's jump in.

Let's hear from our first caller, Kate. Hi, my name is Kate and I'm from Pennsylvania. I'm calling in because I'm hesitant about not having punishments for kids. I have a son who's two and I'm not really sure how I get accolades to teach him the idea of there's consequences to your actions if I don't actually get some consequences. My thing is in the real world there's consequences to things that you do. If you go to your job and you don't do your job or you talk back to your boss or you do things that you're not supposed to, you get fired. That's kind of your punishment for not doing what you're supposed to do. So I'm just wondering how am I supposed to prepare my son for the real world in a real way if I'm not giving any type of punishment

and only establishing boundaries, which boundaries seem like a great idea, but how are you really able to establish boundaries if there's not a set consequence in place if it's not followed? Thanks. Hi Kate, I really appreciate this voicemail. I really mean it. I'm a pragmatist too, and I hear that in your voice. You're thinking, when my child becomes an adult, there will be consequences. If my child acts in certain ways, like you said, there are consequences at work, there are consequences in relationships.

Of course, here's the thing I struggle with. I hear this a lot from parents. How am I gonna teach my kid that there are consequences to their actions if I don't actually parent them with consequences to their actions? I don't really have a response to that as much as I have a different question. Do we want to teach our kids there are consequences to your actions or do we want to teach them? There are skills you can learn so you have control over your actions. If you think about an action, it's a moment.

A consequence happens after. A skill to manage whatever a motivation would be for an action happens before. I'm just one for efficiency. I always think, wouldn't I rather focus on the moments before my child's actions so I can have impact on what they do rather than kind of assume that, yeah, I guess they're going to behave how they do and then they have to learn their consequences. Here's the other thing about focusing on consequences.

Focusing on the idea that teaching kids their consequences to your actions is going to change their actions, assumes this. Right before my child hits their brother, they're gonna pause and think, ooh, if I hit my brother, I will lose TV tonight. Ooh, I really do want TV, so I am going to not hit my brother. I just don't think that's how the body works

because I can speak to this myself. I know in the moments where I'm not proud of my action. I am not in a place before where I have some access to mindfulness and awareness and forward thinking and cause an effect. No, I am in kind of reactive mode. Why do I yell at someone I don't want to yell at? Not because I'm thinking, oh, I guess there's no consequence to yelling. No way, I'm not thinking of a consequence. I'm reactive.

I have a feeling. I have an urge and I don't have the regulations guilty to manage that feeling or an urge. So the urge collapses into an action. I want to teach the next generation of kids every skill they need to manage their big feelings and big urges so they're in a place where they regulate those feeling energies so they don't convert into an action so they don't get the consequence in the first place. You know what's better than my kid?

Knowing there's consequences if they don't speak respectfully to their boss is recognizing that they're angry at their boss, recognizing that they feel overworked, validating those feelings to themselves, then coming up with a plan, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna set a meeting with my boss. I should talk to my boss about this proactively. And my boss needs to know how much I've been working. My boss needs to know what I need. I'm going

to do that. Guess what? There's not going to be a consequence to my child yelling at their boss because the yelling's not going to happen because they learned the skill they need to have in the first place to avoid that action. I also think, of course, kids are going to know there's consequences to their action. It's not that I'm saying they're not. It's just that knowing there's consequence to your action doesn't change the likelihood of that action happening. What changes it? Skills. Real skills. The more we teach a child the skills they need for life, the more control they will have over their behavior in life. One other kind of, I guess it's like a metaphor that comes to mind before we jump into some

other voicemails together, Kate, and learn some other strategies of what we can do instead of consequences to actually teach the skills a kid needs. I want to think about teaching your child to swim. You're teaching your child to swim and you think there may be enough better place and you're right next to them and you let them go for a little bit in the pool

and they clearly can't swim. You grab them every once in a while. It's so interesting. I don't know the parent from the other side of the pool who's saying, oh, you're going to punish them. I mean, they need to know there's consequences to not swimming. If you don't get them a consequence, they're going to think that you think it's okay that

they're not swimming. So you really don't want to reinforce that. You better send them up to their room. You better take away their iPad. You better yell at them so they know that not swimming isn't okay. How are they going to ever learn that you could drown if you don't swim, if you don't kind of show them that there's consequences to they're not swimming. I really mean this. If any of us had a friend who is saying that to us

on the side of the pool, I think we'd, I don't even know. I'd be like, I don't even know what you're saying. This makes no sense. Like I guess it makes sense purely with logic, but when you only use logic, you actually fail to speak the language that the body actually understands. It becomes nonsensical. I'm not punishing my child for not swimming. What it tells me is my child needs more practice and more skills to learn how to swim. I really think we need to look at emotion regulation this way. This is kind of revolutionary, even the idea that our kids' struggles come from

emotion regulation is a kind of revolutionary idea. And if we take that and go with it, then we see punishment and consequences. They're just not part of the equation. They're not part of the equation of learning how to swim. We were just saying, I'm asking the wrong question. The question isn't, what consequence does my child need to know that they have to learn how to swim? The question is, what can I do to help my child learn the skills? To swim safely. And if I do that now early in life, my child will be able to swim for years to come. I promise I will translate all of these bigger ideas into more concrete usable strategies, Kate. So keep listening. So keep listening. And now our next caller, Lauren.

Hi Dr. Becky, my name is Lauren and I loved your recent episode where you engaged with Skepticism, but I didn't hear you address something that's confusing to me. I like your approach to validating feelings and figuring out the why underneath, and I know you advocate for no punishments, but for example, your middle kid is doing something disrespectful and dangerous, and they all basically know better. Are you advocating for simply validating their feelings? And that's it. What do you do in the actual moment that it's happening with a kid who's older than five,

six, especially when they're lashing out physically? Because I know you recommend saying to, for example, a three-year-old, I won't let you hit your sister, and then you can catch this rest. But as the kid gets older, you can't as easily physically stop him from doing something. I've tried, and I feel like my body has stressed from trying to break fights up between my kids. So, what, if any consequences do you teach the older kids the size from just the validating?

Thank you so much. Thank you for raising a question. I think is on so many parents' minds. So now I have a seven year old orold, or a five-year-old, or a ten-year-old, and they're hitting their younger brother, or they're about to throw a block. They're about to do something like you said, is really dangerous.

What tools do I have in my parenting toolbox? And how can I help my child with the thing they really need help with? Well, first of all, let me say this. I love validating feelings. It's true, it's really important. And no, that is not the only thing you need to do when a child is out of control.

Picture your child now doing that dangerous thing. Let's say just because I'm gonna share an example, we can all probably imagine. Your child is throwing blocks. Throwing wood and blocks, something very, very dangerous. Saying to that child, I know you really want whatever the thing is that they want. You're allowed to feel really mad.

No, I would never say that is an appropriate intervention. What do we need to do? Well, the first thing we need to do, Lauren, isn't think about the consequence. The first thing we need to do is provide a boundary for a child that they clearly can't provide for themselves. We have to stop the damage, right? If you picture a child running into the street

where there's traffic, and then you think of a parent watching that child and saying, what consequence should I give my child about running into the street where there's traffic. And then you think of a parent watching that child and saying, what consequence should I give my child about running into the street? I think you'd think, yeah, yeah, yeah, just, I wouldn't think about consequences. Go get your child. Just go running at your child.

It's the same thing. We don't need to think about consequences as much as we need to think about stopping our kid and containing them. And then teaching them whatever they need to have fewer of those moments in the first place. Now I hear what you're saying. What about when my kid gets bigger?

I can stop my three year old and say, I won't let you hit and hold their wrist, but my five year old, my seven year old, they're getting bigger. I would say, still. If you have a child who's out of control, we have to embody our authority and believe that we can stop them.

It is terrifying for a child who's feeling out of control to see that they are overpowering a parent. There is no way a child can ever come down in that situation because they're really looking around thinking, holy moly, who put me in charge? I am completely dysregulated that nobody is here to help me be safe. They're terrified. They are truly terrified. Now I'm a pragmatist too.

You might be thinking, okay Dr. Becky, I'll try to do more of that, but my child's really, really big. That to me speaks to the increased need, to teach skills to our kids in the moments they are actually receptive to them, which is the moments outside of these out of control situations. We don't teach kids skills through consequences. We don't teach kids skills through punishments. Not only do they not feel good to anyone, not only do they cast kids further into a bad kid role, which only makes them further identify that way and act out in that

way. So just completely backfires. It also just simply doesn't teach them anything. I'm someone who's really focused on effectiveness. Part of my brain says, I just don't like punishments and consequences because like what do parents think kids are doing in their room alone? What do parents think kids are doing when their iPads take in a way in response to an out of control moment? Do you really think your nine-year-old is sitting there wondering what they can do instead? No, they're stewing in thoughts of revenge and in feeling misunderstood.

None of that is effective. Hey, so I want to let you in on something that's kind of counterintuitive about parenting. The most impactful way we can change our parenting actually doesn't involve learning any new parenting strategies. The most impactful way we can change our parenting is by giving ourselves more resources so we can show up as sturdier so we can show up as calm amidst the inevitable chaos. It's what our kids need from us more than anything else. This is why I'm doing

my mom rage workshop again. I'm doing it again because it is one of my most popular ones to date. It's coming up July 19th but no worries if you can't make it live. It'll be available as a recording for whenever you have the time. I promise it's really the best investment we can make, not only in ourselves, but also in our kids. Can't wait to see you there at GoodInside.com. Now, here's a little caveat. People say to me, do you believe in related consequences?

My problem with the word consequences is I just don't like anyone I use that word with. If I'm thinking about giving someone a consequence, I just don't like that person. And I always try as much as possible to be in a mindset where I like my kit. I think that leads to effective interventions. So I don't think about giving them related consequences. I think about my number one job as keeping them safe and sometimes safety means making decisions that people aren't happy about. For example, no, yeah, you can't go in that play room right now. There are a lot of wooden blocks and it seems really hard to be around them and not throw them so I'm not going to let you in there without

me being right by your side. If someone says, oh, so that's a consequence, I would say, I don't think of it that way. I just think of it as holding a boundary and keeping my child safe. Not just the child who the blocks are thrown at. I'm thinking about keeping my child safe, the one who's doing the throwing because I don't want that child to feel so out of control.

I'm keeping that child safe by holding a boundary. Now what would I do outside the moment? Well, I wish there was one simple thing to tell you. This truly is the foundation of every single thing I teach. My managing meltdowns and building emotion regulation, of course, is the answer to the question, well, if I'm not doing consequences and punishment, what am I doing? Or I also think it's the question of how do I become an effective parent who is actually teaching my child the skills they need to make the changes we all want my child to make?

My answer to that question? I really mean this. Take the managing meltdowns and building emotion regulation course. It is completely foundational in game changing. So I guess this is kind of a summary. I don't think consequences and punishment teach a child what they need to learn to make the changes the whole family system needs. I think we have been taught that we need to be afraid in some way. Like if I don't give my kid a punishment, they're going to think that their behavior's

okay. Right? I know for me, Lauren, you mentioned that term, knowing better. I know better than, let's say, to yell at my husband. I know better. I know better than to take chocolate from my pantry right before I have dinner, but I still struggle with both of those things. And knowing better or thinking about a consequence, it's never the thing that would make

me change. To really change those things, I have to think about the emotion regulation skills I need. I need to think about how I'm feeling and how to manage those feelings so they don't explode. I don't need my husband to punish me after I've yelled. I definitely don't need him to punish me after I've eaten chocolate. I might need a conversation in a calm moment that's some version of, hey, something's happening and if it's the yelling situation,

he might say, like that doesn't feel good to me at all. And I really want that to change. And so maybe we can think together about what you might need. So you don't get to that point because I know that doesn't feel good to you either. When my husband doesn't punish me, no part of me thinks, I guess he thinks it's okay that I yell. I actually think he's seeing the good inside me. I think he's seeing the good inside me. I think your child in that same intervention would think, my mom sees the good inside me. My mom can help me learn the things I need.

So that these moments don't happen as often. And I think that's what all of us really need. That's what success really looks like for all of us. Let's hear from our final caller, Max. Hey, that's Becky. My name is Max. And I'm a bit of an issue with her son who after his allotted amount of screen time, he gets really upset.

And he's been throwing the remote, which is not for anybody, just not behavior that we want to encourage. So I guess my question is kind of how do we deal with this, kind of without punishing him, and don't want to want to provide consequences for anything that he's doing, just want to figure out how to tackle this behavior the best way possible because he gets really upset and he don't really know what to do. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Hi, Max. Thank you so much for calling in and thank you for describing a situation that leads to difficult moments in most of our homes. Screen time. So, here's what I see as the main kind of struggle to reframe in what you described. I hear what you're saying. My son throws the remote. He has to know it's not okay to throw the remote. I hear you, but I want you to think about the situation a little differently. Let's say your child instead was in the kitchen

and they often lunge for your really sharp butcher knife and you're thinking he has to know it's not okay to lunch for the butcher knife and like run around with it. Like I agree with you. I definitely want my kid to know that's not okay, but more than knowing it's not okay, I would probably think I need to put the butcher knife

out of my child's reach because that's the start of my child wanting something and actually learning not to have it. I can't ask my young child to have that urge and out of nowhere just learn, oh, I'm not going to take it. I have to be that boundary. I have to make it unavailable. My child is not developmentally capable of making such a sophisticated decision as I want it, but it's not so safe. And I could get really hurt and thinking about all that in the future makes me stop my body. No, again, so many adults struggle with these things. We really, I think, have to reestablish appropriate developmental

expectations. I know Max what you would do in the kitchen. You'd think, oh, it's kind of annoying that I can't have this knife out given I like to describe it on the counter and chop as soon as I want to, but such is the reality when I have a young child, and I'm going to put it somewhere my son cannot reach it. How does this relate to the remote control? Well, I'm going to say this kind of in a straightforward way because I'm a straight shooter and only know how to communicate in that way. I don't think the problem really is that your child is throwing the remote. I think the problem is that he's able to access the remote? Given the family knows, he often throws the remote.

It feels so bad for a child. To see themselves in an out of control situation over and over and over again, they do, I think internally, really look around and wonder, why are my adults letting me do this? Everyone knows I throw the remote, I throw it, then I get yelled at, then I run around with it, then they chase me, then I break a lamp, I kinda do this every day. Why is everyone letting this play out? It doesn't feel good to a child to be out of control boundaries or containment or a core part of how any of us feel safe, right? And he's asking for safety, not a consequence.

Now I'm a realist, I know how this goes, so let's play this out. He's about to watch TV and he's holding the remote and you say, Hey, sweetie, I'm going to have to take that remote from you, no holding the remote anymore. He's like, no, I like holding the remote. I won't throw it. I won't throw it. I just like to hold it. I won't throw it. This is a time, Max, where you need to embody your authority as a parent. So often, we think about giving our kids a consequence instead of embodying our authority. Yes, I mean that. We often avoid doing our job and ask our kids to do it for us and then get angry at them and think about giving them a consequence or a punishment when the whole thing could

have been avoided if we had abodied our authority and set a boundary up front. Let's play this out. I say, okay, fine, but promise me you won't throw. I've avoided that authority. My child inevitably throws. I yell. I tell them, I can't trust them. I give them a punishment. Nobody wins. Versus this. Hey, I hear you. I know you really don't want to throw. I also know it's really hard for some reason to hold it and not throw it. So here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to close my eyes and count to five with my hand right in front of you. If the remote isn't in my hand by the time

I open my eyes, I will take it from your hands. I know that's not going to feel good, honey. I don't want to do that either. It isn't. I'm going to do because my number one job is to keep you safe and right now, keeping you safe means holding on to the remote. Now, let's say my child doesn't give it to me, I would take it. I would not because I'm trying to gain power over my child, not because I'm trying to show my child who's boss, because that's one of the ways I'm keeping my kid safe. I'm not going to let them be the bad kid who throws. I'm not going to let them get to a situation where they have to have a punishment or a consequence

I'm not gonna let myself get to the situation where I feel so frustrated. I'm front-ending it. I am knowing the story Not that my kid's a bad kid that my kid is a good kid who can have a hard time making good decisions and I am going to get ahead of that. I would really urge you, Max, and I would urge all of us right now to think of a situation with your kid where you're constantly frustrated with them. Maybe it's your equivalent of they always throw the remote. Oh, they never put the caps back on the markers, even though I tell them to.

They never clean up their room, whatever the situation is. And I want you to think, is there a way that I need to embody my authority, my sturdy and warm authority? Let me add, earlier. Is it saying, yeah, we're not gonna take out any more markers? I know you don't wanna do one marker at a time. I wouldn't either, it's no fun.

I've noticed it's really hard for you to remember to put the caps back on. So until that becomes easier, we're going to do one at a time. So that way, we only have one cap to put on at a time. That's embodying my authority and avoiding consequences and avoiding punishments and avoiding threats and avoiding yelling and avoiding feeling like I'm not showing up as the parent I want to be. I also think Max, this approach really gets at your fear of I don't want him to think this behavior is acceptable. When we embody our authority earlier, instead of our child engaging in an out of control behavior and thinking, oh no, they did that thing. I need to show them this isn't okay. We get ahead of it. And we never let the behavior

happen in the first place. This is a win for everyone. Thank you, Kate, Lauren, and Max for calling in and starting this really important conversation. Let's tie it all together with three main takeaways. One, think about a child's development, similar to how you think about a child's swim development. We don't punish our kids for not swimming. We don't give them consequences to show them that there are consequences in life if you don't know how to swim. We teach them how to swim. Two, there are skills a child needs to manage feelings,

to manage hard thoughts, to manage big urges. So that those feelings and thoughts and urges don't convert into the behaviors that put themselves or others in danger. Think about something your child struggles with and think about what skill they'd need. So that that behavior didn't happen in the first place. This is effective parenting. Three.

So often we give our kids punishments, our consequences, in situations where we didn't embody our authority early enough. This is not meant to lead to a parent blame game. This is meant to feel empowering for you to think, huh, are there situations my child repeatedly gets in? Where I could step in earlier, where I could set a boundary, where I can make sure my child doesn't get into such an out of control situation in the first place. Thanks for listening to Good Inside.

I love co-creating episodes with you based on the real life tricky situations in your family. To share what's happening in your home, you can call 646-598-2543 or email a voice note to goodinsidepodcast at gmail.com. There are so many more strategies and tips I want to share with you and so many good inside parents I want you to meet. I'm beyond excited that we now have a way to connect and learn together. Head to GoodInside.com to learn more about Good Inside Membership. I promise you you're going to love it. It's totally game-changing. And if you're not already receiving my free weekly email, go to GoodInside.com to sign up.

You don't want to miss it. Good Inside With Dr. Becky is produced by Mary Kelly. Our senior producer is Beth Roe, and our executive producers are Erica Belsky and me. If you enjoyed this episode, please do take a moment to rate and review it, or share this episode with a friend or family member as a way to start an important conversation. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, even as I struggle, and even as I have a hard time on the outside. I remain good inside.

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