Good Inside with Dr. Becky - Men Beyond Utility with Dr. John Delony

Episode Date: May 27, 2025

In this episode of Good Inside, Dr. Becky talks with bestselling author and mental health expert Dr. John Delony about the utility trap — the pressure many men feel to always be useful, fix problems, and provide solutions, often at the expense of emotional connection. John shares his own experiences as a dad learning to step out of “fix-it mode” and into emotional presence, vulnerability, and attunement. If you’ve ever felt stuck in the role of provider or problem-solver, or you’re parenting with someone who is, this conversation is a powerful invitation to redefine what it really means to show up.Get the Good Inside App by Dr. Becky: https://bit.ly/4fSxbzkFollow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinsideSign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletterFor a full transcript of the episode, go to goodinside.com/podcast.As parents, the mental load is real—to-do lists, doctor’s appointments, sports practices, work events, birthday parties… Should I keep going? If your family is anything like mine, it can feel like there are a thousand things to remember and your brain is running on overdrive. What if I told you there's a way to bring a little more calm and clarity to your chaotic, always-changing family schedule?Meet Skylight Calendar. It’s a central, easy-to-see touchscreen with clear colors, so everyone in your family can stay in the loop. As someone obsessed with efficiency, it almost feels like magic how seamlessly it syncs with all of the calendars you're already using—Google Calendar, Apple Calendar, Outlook, and more. I truly see this tool as your partner in sharing the mental load with your kids AND partner.And because life doesn't stop when you leave the house, Skylight offers a free companion app. You can add or update events, check off to-do lists, and stay in sync with your family no matter where you are. Another great feature: If you're not completely thrilled within 120 days, you can return it for a full refund. Ready to say goodbye to calendar chaos and hello to a more organized and connected family life? Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15-inch Calendars. Just go to skylightcal.com/BECKY for $30 off. This offer expires December 31, 2025.Today’s episode is also brought to you by Great Wolf Lodge. As a mom of three kids, I’m always on the lookout for family adventures that offer something for everyone (including myself!). That’s why Great Wolf Lodge is high on our list of future destinations! They offer a world of fun, all under one roof, including water slides, a lazy river, a massive wave pool, arcade games, mini golf and nightly dance parties! With 23 locations all across North America, and more on the way, chances are there’s a Great Wolf Lodge just a short drive away from you. You can save up to 40% off on any stay at Great Wolf Lodge from now through August 31st when you book at participating lodges. Just visit GreatWolf.com and enter the promo code “GoodInside” – when you book.

So I'm on my book tour and this dad comes up to me after and he said, I just have to share the story. He goes, you were kind of like in my head this morning. That tell me more. He goes, it was this morning. I was trying to get my son out the door to school and he was being difficult. Right. He was delaying, wouldn't get his shoes on.

And he's like, I really could see the way my dad would have responded to me. I don't know if for sure it's a memory, but I could have guessed. What's wrong with you? You're going to make me late to work. Let's go. A lot of yelling. I would have felt scared. He's like, instead, I heard something you shared a few times that you could do.

And I heard myself then say this to my son, that what I ended up saying was, you know, a few times that you could do. And I heard myself then say this to my son, that what I ended up saying was. You know, when I was young, I also used to have some warnings when I didn't want to go to school. And he's like, that's all I said. And I didn't expect it to be magical in the moment, even though I kind of knew it would feel good just to relate to him instead of yell at him. And he's like, and it turned out he then just wanted to hear about when I was four and five and how I didn't like to relate to him instead of yell at him. And he's like, and it turned out, he then just wanted to hear about when I was four and five

and how I didn't like to go to school as he happily put on his shoes and got into the car. And we finally got to school on time. And there was just so much in this in terms of what fatherhood looks like, yelling, punishing, frustration, connection, presence, storytelling. And as I knew you were coming in today,

I just, I couldn't help but think that I wanted your kind of perspective on how you think about fatherhood, your journey, what your dad was like, just all of it in terms of that kind of arc. I mean, I was raised, my dad was a homicide detective and a swat hostage negotiator in Houston, Texas. Right? So all of the Texas tropes were there, right? And he was raised by a World War II vet who was raised by a man whose dad died when he was 10. So

like, now that I'm older, I can look back and say, I'm doing things very, very different. And I can look back at the compa- with compassion and say, Oh, this is a guy that would open up his toolkit. And there's only a couple of tools in there. And yet he built a house with only one or two tools. And yet it's my job. Now if I want things to be different, to have more tools in that tool kit. And then saying, what's the next right move? And I don't think there's a script for dads right now. Yeah. And so was there ever a time in your fatherhood journey

where you had these worries? I think I hear from dads a lot of worries. Like, okay, I'm relating to my kids' feelings. Like the world's not gonna do that for them. The world isn't gonna care. The world isn't gonna sit on their bed. Like someone has to toughen these kids up. Someone has to prepare them for the world.

And so given you were not raised by a dad who was like sitting on your bed, and that's where you are now. And so have those worries been part of your own kind of journey? I mean, they've, they've been immobilizing at times. And it's, I got there in a strange place and this is a weird journey here. So I was a hyper kid, which I'm on the back end of a generation of young boys that just been pathologized just for being who you are since we were little kids.

And so I've just known since I was a little boy that something wrong with me. And then as I got older to see how the world works and spending years in grad school, I realized I was got another narrative, which is every problem in the world is because of you. Right. And so I also learned I can just opt out and that's hard. Right. But also you can't opt out. So it's been this, I don't know how to do this thing. Right. And then my son is very much, I say this lovingly is very much the golden retriever. Like, And my son is very much, I say this lovingly, is very much the golden retriever. Like I'm, it's okay, dad. And I've said, it's not your job to make me okay. Right. But that was hard realizing he's trying to solve it for me. Like, it's okay.

It's okay. It's okay. It's okay. When I get frustrated, when I want something a certain way, when, um, even now that I'm trying to, now that he's getting older to talk through, I really had high hopes for this tour that I went on and the tickets didn't sell like I wanted them to at these two venues, but they did at this, but not these two. And he's like, man, that's okay. Then I said, hold on, that's not your job to fix for me. I appreciate the, so yeah, it's been tough, tough, tough.

Here's the strange analogy. So I got into mixed martial arts a lot in my mid twenties. And I was with these pro fighters and what, and there was just coming out of a season when these MMA fighters that were professionals, they didn't have any practice. They would just get in a gym every day and beat each other up. They would just fight. And then they would go do their matches at the end of the week or do their events. And what we started to see over time was, Oh, just getting in a room and punching and kicking each other as hard as you possibly can makes you less effective over time. And so now, now it's just kind of common knowledge. You don't really punch

or kick until someone, until you have signed a contract and you're in a ring. Now we're going to work on skills. We're going to like beating you up hitting somebody thinking you're making them tougher. You're not. Um, and so it's been an arc for me like, Oh, yelling and screaming doesn't solve this problem. My kids learn adaptive strategies on not how to respond well, but how to not get in trouble with that. And that doesn't help them in the long term. And so my goal has then shifted and I've got a, my wife was doctorate alone long before me. She's, she's way smarter than me, but this, who do I want them to become? And 99.9% of the challenges I was watching them experience in our home was me centric. I had to go to sit with a therapist and say, I'm not okay. And these kids are absorbing

this. And so if I go do the work for myself and I learned some new skills, then I'm giving them a map on how to work in the real world. But what you're saying, and I think this parallel is really important, kind of quote the real world when my kid is in a job, that's like the ring. Right. That's right. And I think you, me, this made up mom or dad we're thinking of who's saying, my kid's got to be prepared for the real world. I feel like we look at each other and be like, absolutely.

We are on the same page. Yes, yes. You're right. Their boss will not sit down and say, you know, oh, I really just care about your feelings. That's not their therapist. That's their boss. We agree. But I think what you're saying in terms of that metaphor is the best way to prepare a

fighter to be super tough in the ring is not just kind of doing harsh things to them in practice. Like that's actually not the road. Or I think another way I think of it is we all want our kids to swim in the ocean, but we do start in a training pool. You don't throw them off the... You don't start in the ocean. Off an oil rig and say, get back to shore, right? Right. That's madness. And nobody says when you're in a... I think it's interesting when you're in a training pool, Becky,

like you're kind of coddling your kid. If you want them to swim in the ocean, you shouldn't start in a training pool. We'd say, no, no, if you want them to swim in the ocean, pool, we'd say, no, no, if you want them to swim in the ocean, start in a training pool so they can learn skills, be in increasingly more difficult situations. And then one day when they're in an ocean, they'll be strong enough to swim. And there's the other side to that. When we did swim lessons with my son the first time when he was a little kid, to graduate, the instructor chunked them into the pool as though they fell off something and to pass, they had to swim back. And there's a big sign that said, moms and dads, we know what we're doing.

If this is, if you can't handle this, they're, they're going to be fine. If y'all can't handle this, then this isn't the swim group for y'all. And they took my kid by an arm and a leg and threw him in. And I knew it was coming. And I went, Oh, one, I want to shove this high school kid that just threw my kid. I want to shove you in the water and Oh, this is teaching him how to swim. And he swam back and he got up and was just like, I did it. You know what I mean?

And I was like, Oh, that's what that is. That's right. Yeah. Now you said something else that I just want to double click on. I think about how we want to prepare our kids for the future. You want to be the type of dad who does that. But you're saying you also want to be the person that they, they come to or they talk to. So how do you think about those? How do those things go together? Do they ever feel in opposition?

How have you reconciled your ability to be there for them in their hard moments and seeing that as a way of maybe even preparing them for the real world? So every, every, like I had, I had parenting 1.0 and then this one moment shifted. So a cool thing, I was done with graduate school. I was all done and I had my big fancy job. And what I was seeing was the students that were coming to me at the university level, they had stopped asking what I'm not going to be when I grow up. Can you write me a letter? It was all starting to shift in 2010, 11, 12, two. I don't know if I want

to be alive anymore. I've got all these diagnostics. There's something wrong with a Medicaid. Like it was a mess. And so I went back to grad school because I didn't know what I was doing. And my marriage was falling apart and my friend's marriages were falling. Like I didn't know what was happening here. And so I got to go back, but I had to go be an intern again. And there was this extraordinary psychologist, Dr. Michael Gomez, who I still, he's, he was a savant for me, really important. But I remember we were working with traumatized kids and we were going from room to room and this young kid that we were working with, and you know, when you were doing forensic stuff, you, they talk and play, right? So we were playing a game where this kid was teaching us how to

roll a joint, trying to figure out what he had seen at his house. And we went to this next room and I said, he was, this kid was saying some wild things about women. He was like five or six. And it was just kind of throwaway stuff, but I was, I was shocked. And we went from room to room and I said, Doc, like, what are you supposed to say to a kid to teach them to respect women? Well, I had a three year old little boy, right? So I had a vested interest in this. And he just laughed.

And he's like, you can say whatever you want. They don't listen to you. If you want your kids to respect women, it's important for them to see it, which meant, oh, here we go. Now I got to get a group of men that are older than me that I can sit down who are wiser than me. And I got to get a gang. And then I got to go see a therapist because I got some crap I got to get a group of men that are older than me that I can sit down who are wiser than me and I got to get a gang and then I got to go see a therapist because I got some crap I got to work out. Yeah.

And I don't know that there's a shortcut to that. I think that part really matters that these things don't happen overnight. Like you and I have talked about this before where you don't do all your parenting and like a 30 or 62nd lecture. Like that would be nice, right? Like respect women or you have to be tough when things don't go your way as if something I'm going to say in one or two minutes is like my kids like, Oh, it's really helpful. Now that will stick with me for her. Like I really wanted a Snapchat dad, but I see your right.

I see your point and you're right. I should stay calm when things don't go my way. No, they, they're watching us. Every second. They're watching us. And so much then of this kind of, I just wanna double click on this toughness, like being tough, being able to handle hard things, being able to handle when something doesn't go your way,

being able to take accountability when you've maybe acted out. These aren't lectures. These are behaviors we have to model. Saying sorry, saying I was wrong. Do you feel like dads have a harder time with that? Do you feel like that's a sticking point? Yeah, I think, I think the, the implicit message I think I've,

I've received from all environments, from growing up to professional is I have one value in the world and it's utility. Do you have the right answer or can you fix this thing? Right. And it was 10 years into marriage and my wife's like, I don't need you to fix this. I just need you to sit here. And it was another five years before I realized, Oh, she didn't love me for my answer. She just loved me because of, for me. And then I had to go look in the mirror and be like, you don't even like yourself.

How can she like you? Right. And so I think there's this idea that if my only value is in the answers I give, then that means being wrong is an existential threat. I don't have a psychology for that. I can't be wrong. I have to be right. And there's no, there's no public modeling of I was wrong on this. There's just a double down and we're going to ride the sucker to the bottom of the ocean. Or I find instead of just even a double down blame. That's the only thing I've got is complaining or blaming when I feel shamed or swinging, just throwing punches. I guess the fourth would be checking out.

Yeah. But let's go through some scenarios because I think this is true in marriages with kids. This idea of my value is fixing or being right versus in the same scenario can I kind of think about myself in a new role where my value is being present, right? Okay. So you have a wife, let's say she comes home and she's just really upset that she wasn't invited. She saw some friends out to lunch and she's like, Oh man, like I wasn't invited to that

thing. What do you think that first mindset would sound like in terms of fix, make better? What do you say back from that mindset? Well, old John would do one of two things. Dude, I'm gonna call her, I'm gonna call her husband and be like, what's wrong with your wife, dude? Like what's the deal here? There are friends. That's ridiculous. Right. Which in a, in a male world, there's some value to, I'll go hit that guy. Right? Like that is a shoulder to shoulder. I'll prove I'm on your team. Yeah. Like I'll go get, I'll go spend a night in jail. If you'll bail me out.

Like, right. That's, that's the old like code. That's it. Right. And so there is this sense of, I'll go solve this. And the other thing is I would have lectured her on what she should have said or what she should say next. You need to text them and let them, I don't need that from you. These are my friends. Right. And so then I have to realize, Oh, she's telling me cause I'm a safe to use your word that has made a huge impact in my, in my personal home. She's a sturdy place, but

it's, it's coming together in that way. And I've had to accept, she doesn't even say anything. She needs me to be here. And so I think those old, I don't say old, the, the, the paternalistic tropes providing and protecting, I actually think those still work, except she may not need my money. She may need me to provide a safe space or she may need me to protect her spirit. She may need to protect this little room right here so she can come in and just be really upset that her friends didn't invite her out. And that's different than fist fighting. Completely. And just, and I think sometimes if we do have words in those moments,

just for anyone listening where this is new, they feel remarkably unsophisticated because I think you named exactly what someone would do. I'm going to go hurt the other person or I'm going to tell you how you could avoid this next time, right? Versus when you're really saying kind of, okay, my value is just my presence. It's not fixing, it's support, not solutions.

The words that come out are something like, oh, that stinks. Period. There's two magic words in my house. That sucks. That's it. That sucks. And then you have to say to yourself,

cause I think a lot of times where we go next is and then what I think whenever you say and then what you're like, no, no, I just did the thing. That's right. Just count to 30 in my head. You call it a win and move on. OK, what about with your kids? So let's say your kid comes home and they're really upset that they didn't make the soccer team. What is like old John or kind of what do you think the kind of first instinct might be if instinct is just a

repetition of our past? My first job out of college was I was a high school basketball and track coach. So I, I think most parents, not most, many parents instinct would be, I'm going to call the coach. I know enough. That's not, that's, that's futile. I wouldn't do that. But my first would be, well, what'd you do? Did you not, or did you hustle everywhere? Like, and, or maybe the second one would be is I failed you. I should have put you in that camp. I should have let you join this

other team. I should have, I should have, I should have, instead of just saying, that's the worst, that's the worst. And just sitting in that. Just, I want us to sit in that for a second because I think again, it's so new, I think for moms and dads, but I think that is new for dads that just say, I'm sitting next to my kid. I didn't make the team. Oh, that's the worst. And if to use the old language, I am protecting you. I am providing for you, but I'm doing it differently.

All right. I'm sitting with you and you can't ride on me, but I'll be heartbroken with you. And then maybe 15 years from now, if the, your person you're engaged to breaks up with you, it'll be encoded in your nervous system. I'm going to go home and my dad will just go fishing with me. He won't try to solve it. He'll just, he'll get the rods and he'll meet me out somewhere. That that's so,

that's so powerful to make that connection because you're right. When our kids are older, there's no quote coach to call again. I'm not going to call my kids workplace in their 20 something. You didn't get my son a promotions. I'm sure it does. I'm sure I actually know it does because in some ways we've unconsciously contracted with our kid for when you get upset, it is my job to make you happy. But then we shouldn't be surprised. Ironically, there is nothing like doing that or offering a quick fix that makes

for a very fragile snowflake kid because that kid when they get older is like, where is my dad who always calls the other coach and yells at him, why are you not calling my boss and telling them I should get a raise? And you're like, oh my goodness. But that is actually going to make for a much more fragile young adult than a dad.

I think in both ways. It's like running into the weight room and taking all the weight off the bar because it's heavy, it hurts. And then they're not strong when they're 26. But the other thing I've learned, especially with my daughter, is when I run in to solve it,

I am telling her, I always say behavior is a language, I am telling her, I don't think you can handle this. Exactly. Which is the most disempowering thing I could tell my daughter. I don't think, I don't think you have it in you to handle this or to deal with this. I will solve this for you. And I can't think of a worse message. I want my daughter taking into the world. That's right. And I think there are these two extremes. There's like the fixing extreme, which is one communication of, I don't think you can handle this. I'll fix it for you. The other extreme is what I think a lot of us grew up with,

which was just a lot of invalidation. Screw your feelings. They don't matter. Just keep. Basketball, shmask-a-ball, which ironically also doesn't set up a kid to cope because the only way we cope with hard situations when we're older is we've built up skills. Right. And if our only skill is I'm not supposed to feel this way, well, that stops working as an adult because you're like, but I am feeling this way. And so now I'm just in bed or I'm just angry because I'm trying not to feel this. When alcohol works, eating works, like all these different

behaviors that can keep that stuff shoved down works temporarily. That's right. That's right. That's right. Until it takes everything from you. That's exactly right. You know, this is just making me, making me think about something where I feel like we have this obsession when we're upset with fault where either it's my fault for feeling this way or it's your fault for making me feel this way. And when I hear you talk about fatherhood, there's a way to connect with your kids about not making basketball team where that feeling doesn't have to be anybody's fault.

It just is. Did you even want to be on that team? Or did I somehow give you some message? Here is an important one. My son, like we're baseball fanatics. I grew up in Houston. Like the Astros were my team. I know they're not, you can't say that in New York. But my granddad loved baseball.

He used to take me to games. My dad was a big baseball guy. I was a big baseball guy. I was a big baseball guy. And my son and I ran track in college for a few years. My son is excellent at running, but he always played baseball, always played baseball, always played baseball. And in sixth grade, he called a family meeting and I was like, already? He's like, can I talk to you guys? And he asked, um, hey,

instead of playing baseball this spring, I was wondering if I could try out for the school play and I did theater in college too, which was, which we were all excited like, absolutely. That's amazing. It's, it's great. And then he walked out of the room and I was like, ah, he's playing baseball. That's what we do.

And I could not believe that it was in there. Similar when I bought the, when we left Texas and moved to Nashville, I bought myself as a present, the major league baseball ticket so I could catch all the games. And Hank would always come say, dad, let's go play baseball. And I'd say, let's just watch Astros. And then one day not being manipulative, just dad, do you love me as much as you love them? It's off, right? Cause now you're, just, dad, do you love me as much as you love them? It's off. Right. Cause now you're, he's starting to do the math and he's just trying to figure out where

he sits and it's not a move, but it was like, Oh, all he wants is his old man to go outside and play. Right. So that moment you're sitting there and you're thinking, okay, but like he should play baseball. Like we play baseball in this family or even, I don't know, that's what boys do. They do, what, if, we pause that moment. What do you say to yourself literally, what do you do to not just in some ways act that out on your kid?

My job is to help them be the best version of themselves, not to make them Uncle Rico, like rerun my childhood for me. You know what I mean? And to not do the things that I didn't get to do. That's not my job. I think it's hard. I don't know any parent that doesn't stumble on that one. Right. Um, but at the same time, I'm gonna be the best version of what he wants to be. And I have, I've worked at universities long enough to know he could take sixth grade off. And if he hates the play, we'll be fine. You know what I mean? There's all this pressure. That's just nonsense. So some of that's just, just knowing the downstream effect. But for me, it's knowing,

I'm going to be the best, I'm going to be the best theater dad there is. You know what I mean? And I'm a, God help me. I'm going to listen to that soundtrack on the way to work. I might want to drive my car into the medium, but I'm going to, I'm going to listen to, I'm going to figure this out. Because there's no greater, there's no greater couple of water in the desert than seeing your dad smiling real big and cheering you. You know what I mean?

There's just not. So nothing. But the thing that you're aware of that I think isn't said enough is that shift. It is hard. But the stores, it's like, but I love skiing, but I love lacrosse and my kid isn't doing that. It's important to acknowledge that loss. That's okay to feel sad.

Do you feel like I had this image of my son as this baseball player? And maybe that will happen, but maybe it doesn't. And it's OK to feel upset about that, right? Because we can't manage feelings we're not aware of. And so if we get used to trying to avoid those feelings, we are just going to say the thing we don't actually want to say at night. Are you sure? Are you sure about the play? Are you sure?

You know, real boys do baseball, whatever. And then even we go to bed, we're like, why don't I say that? I don't even really. I didn't think that. Yeah. You said the magic word. Um, and it's an old glossarism like that. We think in pictures, but we speak in words.

And so often without even thinking about it, I have a picture of what life's going to look like. When, when we, um, we experienced between Hank and Josephine, one miscarriage, two miscarriage, a third miscarriage. And what I didn't know, I didn't know that the moment my wife got that positive test, just a picture emerges of what life's going to look like. And so you're not only grieving loss in that moment, you have to grieve a picture that isn't, there's not going to be a Thanksgiving table with this many people at that table. Right. And so without even thinking about it, I had a world that we are going to go to high school baseball

games. And that's what I'm grieving. Not that my son is awesome and likes this other stuff. And not that... I know in the literal value, there's an ROI on young people who take a counseling course and take a theater course on their job downstream. There's an actual ROI. I know there's value there because you have to put yourself in somebody else's shoes and you have to work as a team and yada yada yada. I know all that's got benefit to it. But I had a picture that I didn't even mean to have. And I am constantly going back to, Oh, I had a picture of what this is going to look like. I had a picture

of what my marriage was going to look like. I had a picture of what this was going to look like. I had a picture of what my marriage was going to look like. I had a picture of what my, me and my nine year old daughter were going to do. And she doesn't want to go sit in the deer blind with me in the, in the nowhere woods in Texas. She doesn't want to at all. She actually wants X, Y, and Z. And so then I get to be the adult and say, I'm going to agree that I'm gonna makes me sad and then, all right, dude, let's go do that that thing and I think that's so important to say that first step It's good has to happen. That's not happening. I'm allowed to be upset That doesn't make me any less of an adult a man a woman like we do have these images and I think we don't even realize How many images we have of who our kid is going to be way before they're even born?

And I think even in those image or that that movie, you know, else we don't picture. We don't picture how much effort it's going to take. No, just to get to that picture. To do that would be the parent we want to be. I'm connected to my kid. We're OK. But now we're not at the baseball game together. I'm at the play and I'm talking to my kid about the play or I'm not talking about this thing I thought we were doing in Texas.

OK, so now that's new for me. Anything. Okay. So it's effortful. That feels awkward. I'm trying to think of what question to ask my kid when we're at the dinner table. We don't picture effort. We don't, but that discomfort, most men I know have two acceptable responses, anger and blame or withdrawal. That's it. That's the only two things you're allowed to do is I'm just going to sit here

and say nothing or I'm going to be, you go tell it. Right. And to get angry about it. And so I think it's, I think it's again, it's just putting new tools in the toolkit. Yeah. You'll be angry. Like, you thought you're, you went to the trial. Like you thought you went to the tryouts, you thought your kid was the best, they weren't the best. But you thought they were, be angry about that. And then from that moment on, teach your kid that their feelings are valued.

And when they start blaming the refs or blaming the coach, we're gonna stop. I could not, I'm just like aim into that because this is like one of my, I think that is the beginning of what we think of as kind of toxic masculinity, which is essentially a kid, because I rarely see it in girls on the basketball court,

but I see, I do see it in boys a lot. Essentially they're saying, I'm upset that I lost, but instead of feeling that, I turn it into who did this to me. The ref, if that player just passed me the ball, I would have made that three pointer. You're like, you've never made a three pointer in your life. Maybe, you know?

And I think there's such power of any parent, but definitely a dad. I'm saying, hold on a second. You're upset you lost the game? Yeah, that makes sense. Kind of helping a kid, not quote, making it their fault, but helping them own their feeling. Well, and what I've noticed with my daughter and this again, I don't want to overgeneralize, but she has that same feeling, but she blames herself.

And I have something wrong with me and it's this inward turn. And then sometimes for her, I'm like, no, that ref blew that one. They ref blew that call. It's not the end of the day, end of time. Let's go get ice cream. Right. But, um, you're still good. Like you're still my kid. Like I got picked to be your dad and that's all good. And so it's a, it's, I don't know, every kid is different, but that's, that's what I see in my own house. Completely. All right, I want to make this kind of end with some concrete things. What is one thing you tell any parent, but definitely dad's listening or like, okay,

I do want to shift, right? And I get it being emotionally present is he's going to make my kid more resilient. I find to the framework, but like you said, I don't have the language. Like where did you start? Is there a time of day? Is there something you've said? Is there a way you showed up? What, what is one small shift a parent can make? I think especially for dads, you have to have a group of men in your life that you can call and trust. When I was, I was an anxious wreck and that's a whole other podcast, but I wasn't well. And a buddy of

mine drove a couple hours. He had just had a new kid and I had a new kid. I didn't find out until later that my wife had called him and said, I'm worried about John. And he stood out on my driveway in the Texas heat, listened to me ramble about how everything's coming down. And he's a finance guy, like the same haircuts since he was four, like love spreadsheets. That's his, that's his love language. And he just said, what you're saying is not true. And I don't know what to tell you, but you need to talk to somebody. And it was that stoic, quiet statement was the first time I thought maybe it's me. Maybe I'm not right. And my wife couldn't get through to me on that. My bosses couldn't get stoic, quiet statement was the first time I thought maybe it's me. Maybe I'm not right. And my wife couldn't get through to me on that. My bosses couldn't get through to me on that. Every algorithm,

everything I watch will just continue to tell me more about how it's somebody else's fault. Having a real person in my life that I trusted. And so both I've been real fortunate and it's been something that I curated for a long time is having a group of men's been something that I curated for a long time is having a group of men in my life that I trust that will say, we've been there and hang on. You think divorce is it's not right now? Like don't or yeah, of course you're the problem here or no, that doesn't sound right, man.

I'm sorry, but it's, it's here's what I know. And you know this, when I get activated, when I go to fight or fight, critical things off. I'm not. And so to make an overly masculine generalization, special forces guys don't go out without other people without eyes in the sky, making sure they can see things they can't see. And so it's foolish of me to try to do something as important as parenting without other people saying, Hey, I see you. You don't look well. I was in Fort Worth the other night and a couple of my old college buddies came

out to a live event and one of them said, you don't look good, man. You look tired. And I was like, you're right. Only he could say that. I had a therapist who she's, she's my wife calls her the Oracle. She's amazing. But, um, at one session she said this, I answered her on a question she was asking me and she goes, you know what? I've been wondering, you are, you're smarter than me. And I was like, okay. And it was kind of funny.

And she said, no, really you've read more than I've read. You have an answer for everything. And so next time when you come in, um, you're going to say nothing and we're just going to sit. And I said, I'm so smart. I know that therapy talk. And she said this, she goes, oh, you have an answer for everything, but you can't sit in my presence and be okay with you. And that's when I was like, you can just leave, right? Right.

And so an exercise that sounds super cheesy, um, was to look in my bathroom mirror and put my fist in my chest and say, I love this guy. And I couldn't say those words. I couldn't say those words. I could fight. I made good money. I have two PhD. Like I've done all the stuff. I could not say that. And that was coming out of my, with my wife, it was coming out at work. It was coming out of my kids. It was coming out everywhere. And I don't know how it worked, but I know I tracked my heart rate and I know that my

heart rate settled down and I know that my reactivity settled down and I know my ability to learn new skills went way up when I stopped entering every room, expecting everybody didn't like me as much as I didn't like me. Well, I think the practice of looking yourself in the mirror, even saying nothing is terrifying, is a terrifying, vulnerable and very resilience building activity because you're kind of saying this is me and just me being present. So if it's hard for you to be present with your kids and not fix, the answer probably starts by actually learning how to being present. So if it's hard for you to be present with your kids and not fix, the answer probably starts by actually learning

how to be present. And I had to go do some stuff too. Yeah. Right, that wasn't perfect. Totally. I had to go make some changes. Okay, one last question. What do you want your kids to say about you

when they're older, when they just go, oh, my dad and then- Loves me. Okay, dad. And the second one would be, oh no, I can always go home. That's one of my core core family values. Yeah. My dad loved me. My dad loved me. And I can always go home. Yep. I think that's so what's yours.

My mom. My mom really supported me as I figured out who I was. You know, the other day, someone said to me, Oh, does it give you so much pain, the idea that your kids will be on a therapist couch one day complaining about you? And I really mean this. Not I would never want to deprive my kid of the opportunity of realizing all the things that I got wrong or all the things that are not completely in line

with how they wanna do things as they get older. I think that's what it means to be an adult, is looking back and hopefully it was feeling loved and feeling like you had somewhere to go, but also feeling like you were supported in being an individual person, which at the end of the day means separating from your family and realizing the things

that are maybe different about you than from your family and, and realizing the things that are maybe different, you know, about you than, than from your family of origin. And so, but I think it's very similar. I want my kids to feel loved. I want them to feel supported and who they are and meaning if there's somewhere you can always go back to, you're kind of inherently saying when I act out, when I do something that's different than the way they would have wanted me to, we still could stay connected. As a place to go.

A hundred percent. Well, I hope this is not the last time we speak. And thank you for all the all the work you do to help really redefine what like emotionally connected, strong fatherhood looks like. And I'm excited about all the possibilities. I appreciate it. And thank you for the work.

Like, for real, it impacts my house. And you know this like I do, like you're talking to this phone or you're talking to this camera and the cameras go off and the lights go off and then you just go about your day and you wonder like, are we doing anything? Am I doing anything? You know, it's kind of like disorienting. Is anyone there? When you're, when you're like speaking speaking live event you can hear people laugh. But yeah, it's disorienting. Just know that like in my house when I'm

out of tools it's such a good resource. So thank you for that. Yeah.