Good Inside with Dr. Becky - Reclaim The Holidays For YOU

Episode Date: November 29, 2022

The holidays are a magical time of year and they can feel fraught for so many of us. From tricky family dynamics, to managing your kid's meltdown when Santa doesn't bring them everything on their list, to attending too many holiday parties. On today's episode, Dr. Becky sits down with Priya Parker to discuss gatherings, boundaries, and how we can create meaningful moments together.Sign up for Priya's free guide to holiday guesting: https://www.priyaparker.com/holiday2022 and her New Rules of Gathering Guide: https://www.priyaparker.com/the-new-rules-of-gatheringThe holiday season brings its own set of challenges. From receiving unsolicited parenting advice to handling gift meltdowns, Good Inside is here to help you navigate every obstacle that comes your way. Learn more about our Holiday Survival Bundle here: https://lp.goodinside.com/holiday-bundle/  Click here for all your Good Inside gifting needs: https://bit.ly/3hvOI8IJoin Good Inside Membership: https://bit.ly/3cqgG2AFollow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinsideSign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletterOrder Dr. Becky's book, Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, at goodinside.com/book or wherever you order your books.For a full transcript of the episode, go to goodinside.com/podcast

The more the merrier. We hear this all the time. But I'm skeptical. In fact, whoever said the more the merrier hasn't been to some of the parties I've been to. Well, today we're going to be talking about two topics that aren't often discussed together. Parties and boundaries.

All of gathering is line drawing. What is the purpose of this year's Fill in the Blank? What do I want to focus of my birthday to be this year? Who is going to serve that need this year? Who is in? Who is out? This is good inside. Hey Sabrina. Hey.

So I've been thinking about toys recently. I don't want the toy to do that much of the work. I want the toy to inspire my kid to do the work because actually the toys that get really busy and do a lot of things, kids actually lose interest in so quickly. Oh, totally. There are certain toys that my kids have just played with

throughout the years. I have a six-year-old and a three-year-old. Like what? So I have these wooden blocks from Melissa and Doug. They're super simple. Just plain wooden, no-color. And my kids love them. They're always building castles or like a dinosaur layer.

And then my oldest will tell my youngest to like decorate them after he's built this crazy cool structure. My go-to's are Melissa and Doug too. I feel like we have this ice cream scooper thing that my kids use when they were two and then they used again when they were

developing better fine motor skills. And then for my kind of four-year-old, my seven-year-old still using it in imaginative play. I really only like talking about items and brands that we actually use in our own home and Melissa and Doug, I just don't know if there's any other brand I feel so good about naming. The way that their toys actually inspire creativity and open-ended screen-free child-led play, it's just unmatched. And like what's honestly so exciting is to be able to offer everyone listening to this podcast, 20% off. Visit molissaandug. Melissa and Doug, timeless toys, endless possibilities.

I'm Dr. Becky and this is Good Inside. I'm a clinical psychologist. I'm a mom of three, and I'm on a mission to rethink the way we raise our children. I have as a guest an expert in all things gathering. Priya Parker, Priya and I will talk all about gatherings and boundaries and how to have moments where you come together with others that actually feel good. Hi Priya, so happy to have you here. Hi Dr. Becky, it's so nice to be here. Tell everyone a little bit about you

and also then rewind a little bit about who you were as a kid, your childhood. I am a conflict resolution facilitator for groups, so not one-on-one, but for groups, for teams, for intergenerational family systems, for movements. Like, anytime there's a conflict or a tough conversation folks have been avoiding that really require multiple people.

And perhaps not surprisingly, my interest in many of the issues and challenges and opportunities I focus on very much stem from how I was raised. I'm biracial and bicultural. My mother is Indian. My father is white American. and they met at Iowa State. And they, kind of for the first seven to eight years of their marriage, of their relationship, they were each other's sources of adventure.

So they would move every six months or a year. I was born in Zimbabwe. We lived in Botswana. We lived in the Maldives. We lived in Indonesia. We, they were just the Maldives. We lived in Indonesia. We, they were just kind of like footloose and fancy free. Eventually we settled back down to Virginia. And within a year, they divorce.

Sorry, within a year they separate. Then they divorce. And then within three years, they each remarry other people. They have drink custody. And every two weeks, I would basically toggle back and forth between these two homes. And they were very, very, very different worlds. And I would leave my mother and sub-father's house, and it was, and still is, an Indian,

English, global, Buddhist, vegetarian, atheist, on some days, agnostic on others, progressive household. And I would travel 1.4 miles and enter my father and stepmother's house and it was and still is a white American evangelical Christian conservative or public and climate skeptic softball playing, meat eating, you know, you get the point, church twice a week family. My husband often jokes that it doesn't take a therapist to explain how pre-agotten to the field of conflict resolution. And so I've always been fascinated by when and how and why we come together

and when and why and how we come apart. And I became a group dialogue facilitator focused on race and ethnicity and then eventually religion, interfaith. And long story short, that became the kind of helping communities at moments of transition, make meaning of the moment and try to figure out who they want to be together, when how they've been before isn't exactly working. That's the common thread of a lot of my work.

And, you know, your book, The Art of Gathering, the title, I found it provocative, gatherings, it's not a word, I think I've now said it out loud to you more times than I've ever said that word to anyone, although I gather with people all the time and the art of gathering, you know, when I think about the art of something, I think about like a system and a framework, but also like space for movement and individuality and uniqueness. And so I love thinking about the art of anything.

So the art of gathering or being an artful gatherer, like how does the master of artful gatherings, how would you describe that? Well, first, a gathering. And I love what you said. We are gathering all of the time, whether we think about it or not, we are gathering in our classrooms

in our living rooms and our public squares. We are gathering morning, noon, and night. The pandemic paused some of the ways in which we were gathering for quite some time. And what happened in that sort of moment, this ongoing moment, is by taking gathering away from us, we began to see it. We began to see it as this thing, oh, this does affect our life. And so in a way, you are not alone in the sense that we're gathering all the time,

but it's not like a unit that you necessarily think about, but the pandemic has really shifted that. And has opened up this huge question, which is well, then now that we actually see it, how do we want to do it? And gathering is an ongoing practice in which you are ideally trying to create meaningful interaction with and for your people without all having to be the same,

one gathering at a time. So let's start with one of my favorite words. And it's one of my favorite words with families, but I think it's gonna be, it's a favorite word for you to are on gatherings. Clarity, clarity and purpose. Where does that come into play when you're having a gathering? Because right now I'm talking to you,

it's a few weeks before, like, when a lot of people gather and a lot of these things are wrote, you just kind of like show up. A lot of those things don't go well. So where, yeah, we're just purpose and clarity? Where do those come in? You're speaking my language. So first I'll just say I meant to say this earlier. So just to define gathering. So I define a gathering as anytime three or more people come together for a purpose with a beginning, middle, and end. It ends. It's not a community. Communities

have gatherings. Gatherings can build a sense of community, but I'm really talking about the event. So as you mentioned Thanksgiving dinner, a classroom, a staff meeting, a wedding, a baby shower, work, public private, all of these moments in which three or more people come together. And when I wrote the art of gathering, where my people come together. And when I wrote the art of gathering, I wanted to basically demystify how anybody can create a meaningful interaction, meaningful connection in any type of event.

And I wanted to do that as a facilitator. But I also wanted to see who in the world do other people credit with consistently creating magical experiences. And so I interviewed over 100 different types of gatherers. My language, not theirs. They were like, I'm a what? World Cup hockey coach who gets 10 days with 17 players

from different countries who spent their entire lives playing in their mind for their country. What does he do, literally, minute by minute during these Olympic trials to make them a team? Rabbis, choir conductors. What does he do, literally, minute by minute during these Olympic trials to make them a team? Mm-hmm. Rabbis, choir conductors. And the thing that they most had in common was that they didn't have an assumed form in their head

of what the gathering had to look like. And they asked each time, why am I doing this? What is the purpose? And to not assume that a wedding looks a certain way, a baby shower looks a certain way. And so often because we assume the form, as you said earlier, we're kind of, these gatherings are kind of wrote, you go through the same motions,

we focus too much on perfecting the things. What are you roasting this year? What do you do with the mashed potatoes? I mean, I love mashed potatoes, you know, but we over rely on the food and the stuff to be the source of meaning and connection. And it's hygiene. And often, the forms in which our family is gathered, sometimes they're awesome. And if you're listening to this and you love your family traditions, you're lucky and keep doing it. There's a magic there. But if you're listening to this and you're kind of like dreading the season,

that's data, that's information. And so to pause first and like listen, like why am I feeling this way? And what part of our normal patterns is making me starting to clench? And love this kind of overlap between us, because I think so often we do notice that data, like I don't wanna go to my family's holiday. And then so many of us have layered on the immediate assumption, something's wrong with me. I'm selfish, something's wrong with me

for feeling this way. So just note those thoughts, we can't beat those thoughts. So we're just gonna say hi to them. And I think a different way to look at data is, wait, maybe there's something important here around what I wish was different or what I want or what I might need or what is possible. And when we override that, I mean, it could just literally just be a slight clenching in your body or a slight like, okay, here we go, you know, like,

we're in the room together, so you can see, I'm rolling at my sleeves, like, ooh, okay, just noticing. I mean, our question you'd ask listeners though, like, so they can check in with themselves and then we'll both be quiet, so listener, like, what's the question that would, you want them to listen to the answer too in their bodies?

So I'll ask four questions if that's okay, because it actually, the pandemic was this mass of clearing where obligation for a certain amount of time was basically like pushed out. And so all of the things that you longed for you couldn't go to, but a lot of the things you didn't wanna go to you didn't have to, right? And so I often do this in teams,

but you can do this in families, you can do this for yourself, is to first just pause and ask, like over the last two years, two and a half years, however long it's been, what did I long for? What did I miss? What was I craving?

Who? Did I feel sorrow that I couldn't see? Who could you not wait to get that vaccine for? And just notice, I mean, already I can feel in my body, I'm like much more relieved. Just write it down. Who were you willing to literally drive halfway across the country for?

Who did you weep when you saw? Number two, what were the obligations or moments that you didn't have to do that you were really happy not to? Just write it down. No judgment yet. Don't know freaking out like, oh my gosh, but this is the most important thing of our entire community. I'm not going to go, don't make any assumptions about what you do with the data. All data is good data. Just write down. And again, in a work context, what were the meetings you stopped and no one missed? What are you so happy?

You were like, oh, I guess I really could have been an email. Number three, what did you invent with your family, with your friends, with your colleagues, that you kind of loved, that you wanna bring with you, right? Walk and talk. I know even my own field facilitation really shifted during the pandemic. I know therapists who, because they had to, would do face time with, face time hikes with

their clients instead of being in an office and have continued that practice because of the space it gives both of them and the motion in their body. So what did you experiment with? I mean, people invented all sorts of ways of mourning, of wedding, right? How many have been to a Zoom wedding? Now, there are people creating weddings that are purposely hybrid to include the people

that otherwise wouldn't be able to come, right? So just without judgment, what did you invent that you're like, that was kind of cool. I kind of miss it. I might have some nostalgia for it, right? Just write it down. And then number four, what might we experiment with now? And when we start, like it, it feels like the social x-ray of desire and the social x-ray of being able to identify obligation. And by the way, obligation isn't bad. There are certain types of interdependence as an incredibly important part of health.

So, again, just pause and ask those questions. And then, noticing the desire, like, who did I long for? Who do I love to see? And if you notice, oh my goodness, I'm making this up. I really longed for my, so you have teenage kids. I longed for my teenage kids' friends. I miss tearing them in and out of the house, right? I just got a, I saw actually on Instagram yesterday,

someone hosted a Thanksgiving, friendsgiving for their teenage kids' friends. And they'd never done it before the pandemic, and it was a week or two before Thanksgiving, and she realized, I love these kids. Wow, they're gonna go home to their family, but what could I do with ours? And she gathered them, and she sent me, they sent photos.

And she asked them at dinner, two questions over this pre Thanksgiving dinner. It was friends giving, but it was for her kids' friends. What was something that was really cool this year? And what was something really lame? And she made it up. Right, but it's this, it's sort of like following the thread of data, looking at desire versus dread. And then pausing and asking, how can I increase this? And

then what is this desire? And then on the dread part, it's like, what is the source of this dread? And do I have the agency power where will felt to change it? I have the agency power where we felt it changed it. There's so much there. And I love the encouraging of looking inward and finding data from ourselves and then sitting with it. And then after we can figure out, okay, what do I do? Or how can I shape things accordingly? So on that note, let's talk about boundaries

and gathering because I know there's people listening, okay? talk about boundaries and gathering, because I know there's people listening, okay? And if it's you, you're not the only one who's thinking, there's so many things that I dread that are about to come up in the next couple of weeks. Have I already committed to a lot of the things I dread? Do I have to maintain those commitments? Or I haven't committed yet?

Can I say no, what about their feel? There's so many things. So boundaries, all of gathering is line drawing. What is the purpose of this years fill in the blank? What do I want the focus of my birthday to be this year. Who is going to serve that need this year? Who is in? Who is out? What kind of food would we love to create for this? What doesn't really fit? I said at the beginning of our conversation gatherings are like these Trojan horses for decisions we've been putting off because at some level gatherings, the event, it's a binary thing. It either happens or it doesn't. It forces a decision where you have to decide what are you going to serve, right? At the end of the day, or it's a wedding, are you going to say the word God or not, right? Everybody's

there. These are forcing mechanisms where at some level, you have endless possibilities and then something's going to happen. And so gathering, I'll say a couple things. First is, this work is called the Art of Gathering, not the Art of Hosting, because I think guests have a lot of power. And most of us are guests, much more often than we're hosts. That's certainly true for me. And so first I would think about over the course of this next season, whatever it is, what and how do you want to guest? And what and how do you want to host? And then both of those practices are practices of boundary drawing. So what do we do first? Host or guest? Let's go with host. So as a host, say you have a,

so maybe you have an annual tradition and you're wanting to keep it or tweak it, or maybe you don't usually host and you're like, you know what, I actually do feel some amount of dread going to these other things. I've chosen to go, I'm gonna go, but I'm gonna have an alternative fill in the blank where I get to design a gathering that fills me with the light. Let's just say that. So boundaries first, well, rather than asking what's the form to

first ask, what is a specific need in my life right now? And who might be able to help me address that. And then the second is, given that, who should I invite? And then the third is at some level asking for what you need and asking for what's not there. Let me give two quick examples if it's all right on the guest thing. I'll give one holiday one not. So the first is I wrote the art of gathering in 2018. And a journalist called me up and said, I have been assigned to art of gathering of my dinner party. Will you help me? And I laughed and I said, what does that mean? And she was like, I don't know. And I think she thought I was going to say you put the fish knife here, you put the spoon there, you serve orange wine.

And I paused and I asked her the same question I'm asking you now, which is, what is a need in your life that by bringing together a specific group of people, you might be able to address. And she was like, for a dinner party and I was like, just work with me. And she said, well, the other day, I was at a friend's house and she cut me a peanut butter and jelly sandwich into triangles and fed me baby carrots sticks and I burst into tears and I said why did you burst into tears and she said because I'm a worn out mom and

It's been a long time since I have been taken care of And she paused and she said what if I threw a dinner party for my other worn out moms And I said give it a name and she called my other worn out moms. And I said, give it a name. And she called it the worn out moms, Hootin' Annie. And then I said, give it a rule. And she said, if you talk about your kids, you have to take a tequila shot.

And she ended up doing this. And she, she's like, okay, how do I do this? Ah, and I said email. It's not paperless posts. It's not even like, nothing fancy. In the subject line, put the warning at moms, who's nanny, then tell the peanut butter and jelly story sandwich, right? An invitation is actually a creation of a temporary alternative world. It's a story. It's a story I was thinking. And then the line, if you talk about your kids, you have to take a shot,

that it's playful, it's fissitious, but it helps people also understand what is this night. That line that pop up rule is actually a boundary. It's a conversational boundary that's saying just because where moms doesn't mean we have to talk about our kids. The worn out moms, Houten Annie, it's a specific disputable purpose. Are dads invited? Not this time. If you're a little bit more worn out, you could come too. I'm being a little facetious here. But part of this is meaning lies and specificity. And when we don't gather about anything, we're kind of not sure who to invite, we're not sure who to exclude. We don't know how to exclude because we don't actually have a reason to,

versus actually having a specific, disputable purpose helps us and our guests actually decide, do I want to come? And what you're also saying is when you host from a place of a need, then you can also become clear on how to tell guests to engage. So you get your need met. So you're not thinking, I'm gonna talk to about their kids the whole time. This was like the worst, you know, worn out mom party ever, cause now I'm more worn out. Oh, why can't anyone else talk about other topics?

But getting ahead of that and saying, this is what we're gonna do. And here's what we're not gonna do. Yes. And are you in? And are you in? So part of, you know, people often ask me, you know, how do you get people to do what you want them to do?

And I say, come sit by me now. And I say, no, sis, not exactly. Well, you don't do it in the room. Yeah. Another big mistake we make when we gather is we assume that people know what you want. Yep. That they're all gonna behave in the same way.

And that the only power you have over people is that they're all going to behave in the same way, and that the only power you have over people is once they enter your home. So the biggest one of my mentors in conflict resolution, Ronda Sleem, she always would say 90% of the success of what happens in the room happens before anyone ever enters the room. Power and preparation. Absolutely. The Warnat Moms, Hutnanny, that's not just a fun name. That's a social contract.

Yep. Names have power. What are you calling this thing? Right? Friends giving, right? It's a relatively new invention. It came out of the LGBTQ movement and it has a very strong history. But immediately, you know who's there and who's not. Friends giving is a boundary. No family. No capital F family. Everyone can friends as family. So if we talk about hosts and guests, the other little framework I might offer is boundary drawing before, ahead of time, which is much easier, and actually gives both sides space to negotiate what that might be, versus boundary drawing in the moment of the gathering. Well, often boundary drawing in the moment of the gathering. Well, often boundary drawing in the moment of the gathering is something we don't only do once our

boundaries already crossed. And now I hear someone talk about, I'm like, no, I don't want to talk about that. Yes. Now, that's harder to negotiate. It's much harder to negotiate. You can be the most beautiful, I'm a conflict resolution facilitator. I've gotten, I'm also, by the way, conflict diverse. I really am. I come from generations of conflict. You're doing the work with your work. Yes. And so much of, I mean, when my parents separated,

everyone was shocked because they never fought. And so I am a Conflict Resolution Facilitator who, I think, is effective, or when I am effective, I'm effective because I have such deep empathy for the conflict of verse. And so even, and I've learned, I've learned physiological ways to make sure that in the moment when I'm doing my job and the heat rises, like I can, I notice my heart beating faster, it still happens. And even as a conflict resolution facilitator, it is much easier to draw the boundary ahead of time than in the room.

In part, because in order to draw a boundary, you have to first know what your boundary is. And so in a moment, in the room, and a gathering, someone's like corning you in a corner or offering you the fifth cocktail or whatever it is, and you're like trying to, in real time, practice, like, am I okay with this? Am I not okay with this?

And we kind of reflect later. Oh, interesting. I wasn't comfortable with that. Versus a two weeks ahead, three weeks ahead, four weeks ahead. How do I want to show up? Which gatherings do I want to attend? How many do I want to attend? When do I start being my worst self?

Oh, when I commit myself or my family to three gatherings a week, the rest of the family system starts going a little out of whack. Yep. So maybe this year we should practice two gatherings a week that we say yes to. And we agree not to do two things any evening. And then I'm practicing this right now.

When you get invited, when you have these boundaries, when you have these norms ahead of time and an invitation comes in, practicing a boundary as a guest isn't just what happens in the room. It's also the invitation comes in checking in with yourself. Do I wonder what's in this? Does this fit within our gathering diet for this season? And if it doesn't, drawing a boundary and honoring the person by actually saying no, rather than ghosting or staying in Vivalent, is a relief for you and the host. So they know how many people are coming and practicing. I mean, literally the script, we realize that the kids get a little,

everyone gets a little out of whack when we do more than two things in a week. And my sister-in-law is hosting a winter party. We already committed, I'm so sorry, that we won't be there that night. Right? We're saying what you're saying yes to, saying what you're saying no to. And it allows everyone to actually understand what the yeses and what the noes. I think we have this false norm that the only version of politeness is saying yes, saying a clear no soon is incredibly honoring. 100% to say thank you so much for this invitation. What a beautiful evening you've planned. I'm

so sorry I won't be able to make it, sending you a big hug. But what about when the other person gets upset? What about when you get the cold guilt trip, right? Oh, you're not gonna come. Oh, you always come. It's not gonna be the same without you. What?

You can't come. I came to your party last month. Okay, what now? So this is why gathering is line drawing, gathering is inherently relational, right? So if the first step is we go into ourselves and say, what is it that I want this period of time? Not forever, what is it that I want this week,

whatever the time boundary is, then you're also in relationship with other people. They may not want what you want. And that's okay. That's where the negotiation comes in. And so a couple of things. One is, this is also why doing something earlier, I think, honors the invitation. I think it's worse to say maybe, or even worse to say yes and then flake. That feels not good. I think flaking has also gone up as like a cultural norm, and I think it's incredibly, it's not good for anybody. It keeps the ambivalence open.

It actually hurts more to be canceled by text at the last minute. That's going to cause a conflict. And if no one says anything, I'm telling you, they're still mad. So a couple of things. One is, I think you zoom all the way out, and this is a practice. It doesn't just have to be the holiday season. You zoom all the way out and think about, what is it that I want for myself in these three months?

And notice, if somebody feels upset, to talk to, I would say first, to talk to them about it and to either defend your boundary. And if they're upset to check back into your boundary and I said this earlier, obligation is not a bad thing. There's certain, you know, I've said notice somebody before and, and, you know, if it's a close friend and and and they're honest and you're like, what, you know, what the heck? Like, I'm coming into your stuff. You, this may not be the way you want to spend your time. I know you didn't grow up skiing or whatever it is, but this is really important to me. Yeah. And that's what a conversation is.

Yeah. And I think at different moments, that negotiation actually helps both sides understand each other, but also it can break a relationship. And I mean, this is why I was going back to our four questions of during the pandemic, it was this like social actually of desire, a stair-parallel, it's often said during the pandemic, it was the great relationship accelerator, which means more marriages and more divorces.

It was just, it was a revelation of trying to see, do I want this life? Do I want these friends? Do I want this job? And so at some level, these moments of saying, yes or no, are kind of terrifying, one, because they can cause conflict, but two, because it actually underneath gatherings and attending gatherings for better or for worse are often symbols of love.

And so it's either realising, you know what, there's a reason I don't want to keep going to this friend's giving every year. I have actually my interest of change, the way I want to spend my time as change and actually the true tragedy, but also opportunity is like these aren't really my people anymore. And I'm hanging on to this because I feel nostalgic and there's a part of me that values loyalty, but the stronger part of me that values loyalty. But the stronger part of me, which is I need to have different energetic rhythms and people

who talk about different things, is overriding that loyalty. And this might be the last one I ever attend. Hey, so I want to let you in on something that's kind of counterintuitive about parenting. The most impactful way we can change our parenting actually doesn't involve learning any new parenting strategies. The most impactful way we can change our parenting is by giving ourselves more resources so we can show up as sturdier so we can show up as calm amidst the inevitable chaos. It's what

our kids need from us more than anything else. This is why I'm doing my mom rage workshop again. I'm doing it again because it is one of my most popular ones to date. It's coming up July 19th, but no worries if you can't make it live. It'll be available as a recording for whenever you have the time. I promise it's really the best investment we can make not only in ourselves, but also in our kids. Can't wait to see you there at GoodInside.com. Do you continue on that topic of when people are upset when you draw a boundary or say no to their gathering,

right, which can happen outside the holiday time? But definitely I know a lot of parents are thinking about, especially post pandemic, I might not go to that big family Christmas party, right? I didn't go for a couple of years. I'm now dreading it. I'm checking in with myself, right? I think one of the things that,

like I just wish kids were taught from the start is setting a boundary of years, I'm now dreading it. I'm checking in with myself, right? I think one of the things that, like, I just wish kids were taught from the start, is setting a boundary for yourself based on something you need, can actually go hand in hand with understanding people's feelings about you setting that boundary for yourself. Yes.

Because when someone's upset, we often activate convincing mode. We try to convince them, well, here's why I can't go, you know, or don't you understand this, right? We want them to see it the way we see it. But if we've focused instead on convincing ourselves of our boundary, which is just so powerful, the only person I need to convince is myself. It's beautiful.

And if we have our energy for convincing focused on ourselves, then we can actually see someone's upset feelings with empathy because we see it, oh, wait, I don't have to convince you. Oh, yeah, I get why I actually do get why you're upset that our family's not coming to the Christmas party. You feel right. Yeah, I said, I see that. And then I think when people aren't used to that, they collapse the two. Oh, so that means you're coming. And there's this moment, like, oh, no. Like, and I know I say this often, but I think it's like, no, two things are true.

We're not coming. And I understand and even care about the fact that you have hurt feelings around that. And I actually even have faith that in time, like, we'll be able to work through that, right? My boundaries don't dictate your feelings, your feelings don't dictate my boundaries, both can be true at once.

It's practicing what I sometimes call the connected, no? Yes. And so it's not like, I think it's almost like, no, has to be like a whack over the head, you know? Versus like holding your hand and saying no. It's literally a shift of the physiology. Yes. And I think in part, because we're not used to connected

nose, we think it's either like literally a cut or a bind. And practicing this connected no is different for many people within the system. And so I would say a couple of things. One is I would still leave a little bit of space always to be surprised and wrong about a gathering. How many times have you been to something? I was dreading this. Yep.

I'm so glad I came. I don't know why I didn't want to come. Like, I think there's a certain part, even post-pendemic, you know, all of us are muscles of sort of social atrophy. Mm-hmm. It's like, oh, I don't really want it. I have a lot of anxiety. And then you go and you're like, what was I thinking? This was awesome.

Yep. And so, there's a little bit of space of like, you know, like, make sure you're also living a little, right? Yeah. It's not everything goes back to like, how did I feel my body? Your body is only in the present tense. Your body is not a future predictor. So I just, it's just a little asterisk. I love it.

But on the boundary side, the last thing I'll just say is, when, when I'll say in my own life and in the, in the groups I work with, when we haven't been taught and the language and the norms around boundaries haven't been set, when you're practicing a new norm particularly within an embedded system like a family, the way it's read is read within the old code and you're trying to actually introduce a new code. And during those transitions, there's a lot of chaos.

And when you point to your feet, I mean, this is your field, not mine. One of the best books I read in last year was called, if you met my family, you'd understand. It's by a Christian Theologian, Japanese American. And one of the things he talks about is self differentiation is the ability to stand in a room and be yourself and resist the togetherness pressure of everyone else, but still be there. And to practice what he calls a non-anxious presence. And so you're present, you're not absent. I could be non-anxious when I'm absent or I can be anxious when I'm present, but how do we practice a non-anxious presence, and to practice that when you're introducing a connected no into

a culture that either receives a rejected no or a connected yes? I think that's exactly right. Anyone who's saying no to family, maybe for one of the first times, if it's really anxiety producing, you're probably writing a different rule for your relationship. You're actually saying, I think when you say, yes, you know what I'm saying, this is actually my way of continuing

to be in a relationship with you. It's beautiful. Right, but if people are used to hearing, who do you need me to be to be in a relationship with you, then yes, it takes a little bit of time, you know, for both parties to learn those new rules. And it's sort of like the billy uri when you're saying yes the old negotiation sort of father grandfather um of the field he would often say you're saying no to something but also to

yourself this is a convincing point say what you're saying yes to. Yes. And if you'd like, no, we're not going to come to Thanksgiving this year, but I would love would you be up for a Friday morning leftovers meal, right? So part of this is, some may be clean those, but some may be often alternative. I was speaking with a woman a few years ago, this before the pandemic, and she realized that the way in which her family Christmas, quote unquote, ended up being a lot of alcohol for her family. And she had said something for years, trying to shift the behavior in the room

and didn't want to get into a dynamic where she was controlling her father. And so one year she finally decided that she would offer an alternative and she said, we are going to spend Christmas as a family in our city this year. But we would love to do a gift exchange on the Friday of Thanksgiving if you all are up for it. And people were, you know, there's some raised eyebrows, but basically she, I'd love what you said, is writing a new line in our rule and our relationship. Like going back to what makes artful gatherings, the artful gatherings I interviewed didn't have specific lines in their head of what a gathering had to look like.

They pause and asked each time, what is the need here? And then they designed for it. And Gavin can be super fun. Like the worn out mom, Houten Annie, she made it up. You know, I'll get, can I give one more example? Yeah. So again, on the guesting side, this, there's a, the guy named Michelle LaPrie. He's one of the people I interviewed in the book. He was a circus, so lay choreographer, but spent all of his time choreographing shows for his work and realized he hadn't been home in months. He's Canadian. He hadn't, he had a like a bare bones tree. He wanted to trim it. And so he invited 10 friends who didn't all know each other to come and help him trim his tree. And he said, and, and then we'll eat together.

Could you send me two photos of moments of happiness from your last year ahead of time? And when they walked into the room, there was an ornament making table set up with all of their photos printed out to glue onto the ornaments. And people walked in and they gassed with joy, and they didn't all know each other, but it gave them a conversational context. Oh my gosh, Boris, how good you looking, you know, you're ac conversational context. Oh my gosh, Boris, how good you looking, you know, you're acrobatic outfit. Oh my goodness, Julie, you sold your houses here. Wow, what was this vacation?

And he was telling it to me, he said it gave him something to do. It was his need literally. And then it wasn't like he was like, we should now all talk about our moments of happiness. It was the natural conversational fodder that took the entire evening. And it was this evening of joy.

I love that. And this is a perfect segue into a voicemail where we have a listener question where I think she's going to talk about a moment where I think she's expecting joy. And let's just say it's not what happens. Hi, Dr. Becky. My name is Alicia. I have three kids, a boy who's seven and two girls ages three and five. With holidays coming up and Christmas, I have a question for you about one of my kids who, of course, already has a list for Santa. And we'll be getting some of those things, but Santa

will not be able to get all of those things. And I'm wondering how to help her when she looks around Christmas morning and instead of what I would wish her to do, which is say, wow, this is so great. And I'm so grateful for the things I did get. She is focusing on the one or two things that maybe she didn't get on her list and having big feelings about that. How do I help my children, I guess,

to feel more grateful when they are given things and seeing the good in the things they are given rather than looking at the bad? Thank you. Beautiful question. I would first, I said this really with the Randa Sleem quote, which is, gatherings don't begin at the moment of entry. They begin at the moment of discovery in the guest's mind.

So Christmas for this example, we are thinking and she is thinking, what do I say on Christmas morning? Right? Basically just the event is those 45 minutes where people are ripping open their presents and then you have this big disaster. Yep. Every gathering started actually at the moment of discovery and in most gatherings that's the invitation. Will you come to our Hanukkah night? Will you come to our you know, Eid? Will you come to our Christmas? And in the guests mind you're actually hosting your guest from the moment of discovery. You're hosting them. You're you're shaping their expectations of what will happen on that glorious Eve or morning by what is in the invitation?

And in this case if you follow this metaphor, it's not that you're literally handing your child an invitation to Christmas, but the making of the list is kind of the opening act. It's like the opening salvo, it's the opening ritual. And then there is an on ramp for the next three weeks that you can't fully control because whatever's gonna happen at school,

whatever they hear on the radio, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Other friends may dictate what fantasies in their mind that get built, absolutely. But you are hosting them from the moment of discovery. Yep. And this is your field, not mine. So maybe we can tag team on this. But what I would suggest is really think about

is how do you begin to create a container that matches what you hope happens on that morning and communicate it with that child. And so I'm making this up, but it could be anything from, like I wouldn't say like there's a warning like you're not going to get out of all of these things, but it could be some kind of holding space where it's where you say something like this gets into other stuff also, it's like what do you say about Santa or not? So I'm going to make a lot of assumptions here. But I heard from Santa that there's going to be three presents for each child under the tree. And I am so excited. Which one do you think it'll be?

Yeah. And three is arbitrary. But it's like we're letting their fantasies and their desires kind of like hold, you can't see my hands right now, but I'm like waving them wildly, hold this entire space rather than like the art of gathering is finding the right size, shape and container, given your need, given your purpose, given your values, and then inviting your guests to come along

and then become beautiful participants in it. And I love the second piggyback on that. So I have so many feelings and thoughts about gifts in general, right? Where if anyone asked me to make a list of things that I might want, let's say for my husband, right? And I don't know, I'd put some practical things, like I don't know, like a new slow cooker.

I would like a new coffee grinder. I'd love a diamond necklace. I'd love a trip to Hawaii, right? Okay. And then, you know, the holiday morning came I love a diamond necklace. I love a trip to Hawaii, right? Okay. And then, you know, the holiday morning came and he's like, I got you the coffee grinder and the slow cooker. I don't know if I'd be like,

oh, you're amazing. I love you. Thank you. I'm so grateful. Or if I'd be like, oh, oh, like no, no necklace, no trip, right? And sexiness, no joy, you got all the basics. Exactly. Anything I am is all in the kitchen.

Right. And if you wrote, well, those were two of the things on your list and you're being really ungrateful, I'd say like, you don't understand how humans work. That's my beautiful. Beautiful. And so I think, and more than that. I love that. Right. Like kids, kids have such fantasies around gifts and we allow them such fantasies and magic as we should

around the holidays and all things are possible with someone like Santa, right? And then we don't anticipate the completely human disappointment that happens at any age when you built up an idea of what you want and that exact thing doesn't happen. Beautiful. And so I think just we have to rethink gifts and what an appropriate reaction is. And yeah, I would think very similarly

about saying things early on like, it could be, this is how many gifts I hear Santa's gonna get or I just love wondering, right? Like I wonder what it would be like if you don't get PlayStation. I wonder what it would be like if you get books and a Lego, but the Lego isn't the huge rocket ship Lego set and is a different one.

Huh, that could feel a little tricky. And I know people thinking are like, Dr. Becky, do you actually think my kid is gonna like answer that question? I think we ask kids questions, so they start to ask themselves questions, not to actually get answers, because if your kid walks away hearing that, what would that be like? I promise you your child is going to be much better prepared. And so I think those questions and those more reasonable expectations, again, yeah, they

set the container. And now also, I've understood as a parent excitement and disappointment are both going to happen. They're both going to happen. That doesn't mean my kid is ungrateful, right? It means that my child is reacting the way any of us would react in this type of situation. All right. Let's hear from another hall. Hi, Dr. Becky.

I'm Nicole, and my question for you about holiday gatherings is how do we set boundaries around gifting without sounding and grateful? I really love that my three-year-old is surrounded by so many friends and family members that do it on her. But she gets gifts for holidays that aren't even typically associated with gifting. I'm talking Halloween, Thanksgiving, the mental gymnastics I do about where I'm gonna fit the new toys and the level of anxiety it causes is incredible. But I find it so hard to bring it up to the culprits.

Good one, right? Great one, so relatable. I didn't know that someone could be gifted something on at Thanksgiving in Halloween. I didn't know that was a category, so learning the things every day. Well, I think there's like a tradition, at least, I'm Indian, I'm half Indian,

and like a lot of the Indian context that I was raised in as you come to someone's house and you, particularly for the children, you bring a gift. And so I think some of this is also cultural. It's not so much like I'm giving a gift on Halloween. It's like I'm coming to your home and you have children. And so I would like to don't on them. And I mean I'm not an expert in gift giving but I you know I really am a huge fan of saying ahead of time you know what feels great to you. And giving, it's like saying what you're saying yes to,

I think, you know, the art of gathering is a deeply modern body of work. And what I mean by that is it is a set of skills that anyone can learn, but is particularly helpful when people aren't all the same. So traditional community, is traditional cultures, we have the same norms. You always bring this gift for this thing,

or you go to South India, and you watch a red, thread tying ceremony, and the red thread is tied around the wrist, and everyone bursts into tears, because they know what it symbolizes. They know what it means. All of their previous ancestors had done the same thing. As you begin to diversify, a good thing I would argue,

as you begin to globalize, as all of these things, we don't have assumed ways of being. And so often our gatherings become either full of conflict or very vague and meaningless. You end up with beers in the living room. And so part of honoring your guests is to pause and to tell them ahead of time what you need. And it can be in playful ways. I got a DM the other day. This isn't about gifts, but I think you could do something similar.

It was a real, I had permission to share it. It was a real DM from a parent who was having like six friends over, six of her kids' friends over. And she emailed all of the parents and said, I'm so happy you're coming over. And I wanted to just give you a sense of what the evening will be like. Please come at six.

It's drop off. My husband and I will be home the whole time. And we have a phone and no social media policy in our house. We're gonna have a basket for the kids to put their devices in. And we've found that the play aids are just so much richer. And they find these other ways of spending time together that we really value.

I hope that's a great, just wanted to give you a heads up. And like, I was like, you know, like slow clapping. Yeah. I think similarly around gifts, if it's becoming a huge burden, I think you have one option, which is like shape, shape the thing ahead of time, which is if you want to, I mean, it's the same thing with registries, the same thing with any

ritual where there's an assumption that there might be a gift. Shape ahead of time, please know gifts. If you want to do something, they love bread, right? Give people, part of it's like this, yes, block a blessing. Gifts are physical symbols of people wanting to show their love. It's almost an energy exchange. 100%. And so it's also kind of a lot of work on the gift giver to think what might this kid like, oh, it's the wrong age, blah, blah, blah.

So it's like, we have so much stuff or bursting at the seams, but we love, lemonade. Yeah. Like, literally, give them, it's like the block. Like don't block the blessing. Shift it slightly so they can still have that energetic feeling that they're bringing something to honor your family with. And you know, you said something earlier in your framework

that I think can really be applied here. I was hearing it when I listened to this question. Not being so attached to a form, but to the purpose. Yes. And I think about that side-by-side to something I think a lot about, which is when we're in conflict with someone getting out of the mode where you're looking at them like, I was at this image like you're on the other side of the table and you're the problem. Versus now I'm going to move you to being on the same side of the table with me and together we're looking at a problem. And so the grandparents always bring too many gifts. Okay, that's your the problem. And it's

also looking at the form. Yes. And my guess is there's a purpose to it that you can really align on with them. And now all of a sudden you're on the same side. So it might sound something like, hey, you know what I was thinking about? I don't know, you might have already noticed, you know, sometimes it's hard when, you know, there's extra gifts brought. We live in an apartment. We live in a place that's, I guess, dressed or even but where to store them.

But you know what I realized? I think this is actually less about the gift. And I don't know, I could venture a guest, but I don't know if it's about having a moment that feels exciting with Bobby or, I don't know if it's about doing something that feels special. And honestly, I love that you wanna do something that feels special with Bobby. And honestly, I think he loves that too.

And so I wonder if we can think together about a way to do that. This upcoming St. Patrick's Day, you know, not good. I'm coming. A young Kapoor, which is definitely not a gift holiday, where you could do something special. Yes. And that would feel good. And it might not involve physical item. Let's think about that together.

I'm sure we can figure it out. Nobody's the bad guy. And actually, it might open up a way where everyone actually gets their needs met. I love that. And it's also, it's the C.A.R.I.D. It's the same process. It then puts it back on the grandparent, if they're up for it, to then say, well, what is it that I'm trying to do? Yes. Is it that I'm trying to actually give them something they don't normally have?

And if that's the case, maybe I take them out just one on one for a special dinner at the local Applebees or whatever it is. Or is it that I don't fully know how to interact with them? Yeah. I'm trying to bring a different object. It allows them to actually discern a little bit and have what I think probably both share more intentional relationships with ourselves and with the people we love.

And often the form has just been passed down, often not thinking because we're busy or it no longer, it matched a certain moment, but at a certain time, and it no longer serves the need, but the energy is still there. And so artful gathering is literally the same thing. It's like it's energy detection. And it's like, where do I have energy? Where do other people have energy? And how might we shift the form so that we can create this beautiful temporary container that people want to be a part of? Love that.

So as an ending, I'm thinking about a parent listening who's like, and I know what they're thinking. They're like, this is amazing. And like just give me like one or two things, Priya, like something I can use right now, like I'm busy. Like all of this matters. Like, is there a question I should think about? Is there something to think about for the upcoming holidays?

Is there, you know, something to do? Is there something actionable that you would say is toward the top of the list of kind of doable with high impact? I love that you're asking this. So first, I have a free guide that is specifically about upgrading your guesting game during the holiday. And spoiler alert, up in your guesting game, maybe attending less things.

Oh, love it. Right? So first, and you can get that at preaparker.com, slash holiday 2022. I'll put it in show notes. Too pressing. Yep. And then, actually on the website,

we have the new rules of gathering, how to plan or rethink a special occasion. And we literally can print it out. It's free. We literally go beat by beat. How do you think about what your need is in this moment? What is a specific disputable purpose? Given that, how do you move away from having your invitation be logistics to an act of persuasion and a story. Who do you actually wanna spend your time with? And it's a step-by-step process. I mean, you could think of it that way,

but it's all of these are actually, I think the skills you build, Dr. Becky, which is practicing discernment of what am I feeling in this moment, what am I seeing around me? What is the need? And how might I invent or reimagine? What could happen if I'm paying more attention and trusting that my needs are valid?

Well, thank you for gathering with me and with all of our listeners. Thank you so much for having me. What a great conversation you're a wonderful host. Thank you. Thanks for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com slash podcast. You could also write me at podcast at goodinside.com.

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Noise. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhi, Julianna and Kristen Mueller. I would also like to thank Eric Kabelski, Mary Panako, Ashley Valenzuela and the rest of the Good Inside team. And one last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside.