Good Inside with Dr. Becky - Setting Boundaries With Nedra Tawwab

Episode Date: June 14, 2022

Boundaries aren’t selfish. They’re self-preservation. If this idea makes you uncomfortable, believe us, you’re not alone! So many of us grew up learning to tune out our own needs in favor of pleasing others. Here’s the thing: Now, as adults, that circuit no longer serves us. If you feel exhausted, resentful, or overwhelmed… this episode is for you. Dr. Becky talks with therapist and best-selling author of “Set Boundaries, Find Peace” Nedra Tawwab about all things boundaries: what they really mean, where to start, how to set them, what makes them so hard, how to handle pushback, and more. You’ll learn the difference between “self-care” and “after-care,” why saying yes is just as important as saying no, and a ton of actionable strategies (including how Dr. Becky and Nedra manage their calendars to avoid over-committing). Remember: Your needs and wants matter, even when others have different needs and wants. Join Good Inside Membership: https://bit.ly/3cqgG2A Follow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinside Sign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletter Order Dr. Becky's book, Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, at goodinside.com/book or wherever you order your books. For a full transcript of the episode, go to goodinside.com/podcast

You're listening to Good Inside with Dr. Becky. If you follow me on Instagram, chances are you probably follow my guests today as well. I'm beyond excited to have therapist, author, content creator, and friend, Nedra Tawab on the show today. In my opinion, Nedra is the modern boundary queen, so naturally we discuss all things boundaries. What are boundaries? Where do we get them? How can we practice them? Why are they so hard? What do I do with all the guilt? And why are boundaries so important for self-preservation? I think we all need this episode. I promise you so many aha moments and actionable strategies.

So with all that in mind, let's jump in. Quick note, paid partnerships keep the good inside podcast free for our audience. I want you to know that I take partnerships seriously because I take my relationship with you seriously. So I only partner with brands that I trust and feel great about using in my own home. So, if you're like me, when you hear the word vitamin, you say to yourself, yeah, I probably need some of those.

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That's p-e-r-e-l-e-l.co. Hi, I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Goodinside. I'm a clinical psychologist and mom of three on a mission to rethink the way we raise our children. I love translating deep thoughts about parenting into practical, actionable strategies that you can use in your home right away. One of my core beliefs is that we are all doing the best we can. With the resources we have available to us in that moment. So even as we struggle and even as we are having a hard time on the outside,

we remain good inside. Hi, Nedra. I am so happy to have you here today. Hi. We have so many different things to cover today. The good inside community heard that you are gonna be on the podcast and they submitted about a million scenarios. So we're gonna only have time for a few.

But before we fully jump in to kind of brainstorm how to kind of set and hold boundaries in so many different tricky situations. Can you tell everyone a little bit about you, who you are, and the things that interest you? I am a therapist who is also an author, a content creator, a writer, a practice owner, and I still see clients. Amazing.

You do so many different things. And tell me about your relationship with the topic of boundaries. It is an ongoing relationship. We've been together for a very long time, me and boundaries. It is something that I learned very early, and I was given some space to implement some of them, but I would say as I've gotten older,

I have grown in my courage to do it more often as a life-saving and preservation practice. Wow. And can you, for someone listening, who's thinking, I hear that word all the time, boundaries, boundaries, but it would be helpful to kind of crystallize, you know, a definition or one of many definitions.

How do you think about what boundaries are? I think of boundaries as so many things, it is saying no, but it is also saying yes to things at times. It is requiring certain things of yourself settings expectations with yourself and others and limits and rules and structure. It is so much of what we already do that we can get better at doing in various areas. Anytime I hear a person say, I don't have any boundaries.

I challenge that and I say you probably have some very healthy boundaries in this one area and you may need to tighten up in another area. That is typically the case. We do have boundaries. We do have rules and structure in one area or another,

but perhaps there are problem boundaries and in certain areas that we need to bring up to speed for them to be healthier. I love that framework and that means for everyone listening, it's true. I think it's easy to hear the topic of boundaries and I'm thinking a lot of the people who are listening already follow you on Instagram or have your book.

And by the way, if you don't, you should do both of those things immediately post a podcast and do that. And yet, I think it's intimidating. People might think, oh yeah, like I have so much, oh my goodness, I have so much work to do on boundaries. Like you said, I'm horrible at boundaries. And I love that strength-based approach. You have boundaries.

You do. You kind of wouldn't be surviving if you didn't, because boundaries are necessary for self-preservation. And so it's helpful to say kind of, you know, two things are true. There are areas where I have boundaries and actually looking into those areas can teach me a lot of lessons. And then there's areas where I'd like to apply some of those lessons and strengthen boundaries in a way that work for me. Is that kind of in line with what you were saying?

We can have both healthy and unhealthy boundaries at the same time. So why are boundaries so hard? Like, why are they so hard for so many people? Why are so many people listening to this thinking, yes, like I want to be on kind of an improvement journey around boundaries? We have challenges with placing boundaries because we care.

We wonder about what people will think, what will they feel, what is the nicest way to say this, how do I do it and feel guilt free, how do I do it and be the nicest possible. Often, well, every Monday in my IG story, I do a Q&A and so many times the questions are around, how do I say I don't want to come to your party? And my response is typically quotes, I don't want to come to your party period, end quote. And I say you already have the words, there's no perfect way to say a hard thing that that that may feel hard for you, but I promise you that person probably has invited

30 people and some of them have said no. Mm-hmm. And I think what you're insinuating is something, you know, I think a lot about too with setting boundary user, saying no, is that we often set ourselves up for something that's impossible because people say, how do I say no? But I think often people say, how do I say no?

But I think often they mean, how do I say no and make sure that person isn't mad and make sure I don't feel guilty, right? Where they're really two different things and often setting boundaries involves tolerating the distress that we think we can avoid. And if we wait and wait and wait to avoid that instead of boundary, my guess is the waiting is it's going to be forever. I don't know. In my life at least. Yeah, we can't save our things and expect people to not have a response to that. We can't say things that we think are okay to say and expect people to be happy with it. We'd never know how

someone will respond. And if we wait to say things based on how they might respond, I often fear that we won't speak up. I think that's exactly right. That in some ways, there's something controlling about that idea that I'm trying to control how someone reacts versus I'm trying to control what I feel like in my core, I need to do for myself. And then I have to kind of tolerate and cope with, you know, what happens next. But that's very different than trying to control for that outcome, especially if it's in someone else. And we can't control for it. It is something that we can't plan. I have seen all sorts of reactions

based on different things in life. As therapists, we see people dealing with some of the same things and everyone's reaction is different. So we can't say that if I say this to a person, they will cry or they will be mad, they'll never talk to me again. There is no way of being certain. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And so many of us, I think, growing up, had to be so attuned first and foremost

to probably our family members' reactions to us. And we kind of use that to back ourselves into whether it's okay or not to have wanted that thing or to have asked for that thing. And then we carry that into adulthood where we kind of say, oh, how someone gonna react to saying no to their party. And then we use that even though it's made up data because we have no ideas, you said.

But we use that made up data to then back into our decision rather than starting with, okay, what do I want? What do I kind of know internally? Okay, and then what's the way I can communicate that? That feels good to me, right? And what might happen next? And we start with ourselves versus starting

with someone else. And I think boundaries are really hard for people because it does kind of require you to start by looking in instead of looking out. I find that the biggest boundary area is the boundaries with self. We often think that our boundaries are a way of controlling other people, but it is really a way for us to control our roles and relationships, what we do or do not tolerate, because we can't change people.

And sometimes we don't even want to leave the relationship with them. We do have to build different habits to coexist in those relationships. Yeah. So speaking about relationships, I've received a bunch of kind of specific situations that people would love. Nedra to Obbs guidance on, you know, I call you the modern boundary queen. So I also would love your guidance on this and knowing. And I know you feel the same way. There's no right way. So Nedra and I are going to be brainstorming things, but words for Nedra, words that I might

use are not necessarily at all the right words for you. This is just meant as kind of a brainstorming starting point. So if it's okay with you, I'm going to play a little game. I'm going to just kind of shoot off some ideas, kind of some scenarios. And I'd love to hear your reactions on how someone who knows they want to set a boundary might communicate that boundary in these kind of sticky situations. All right, let's go. Okay.

By far the most popular kind of request, and of course probably related to the parenting focused community in laws and extended family. So here's a situation. My in laws do not agree with how a parent are six-year-old and four-year-old. They believe I should use a much more punitive approach, and they blatantly disrespect my boundaries. They tell me I should punish my child, one of my child's in earshot, and they mock me when I as they say do nothing in response to their quote bad behavior. parenting things were different. So we have to acknowledge that what they're saying has value.

They have kids who are thriving and married with children. And so their perspective is true for them. It is not true for you because you experienced a lot of what they're talking about and you know better. Sometimes we have to allow people to be wrong or even not appropriate for us. When they say these things, we must remember that they are talking about something that worked for them that does not work for us. And we do not have to take that as something we should try to be like or something that

we need to change. It is not personal. They are simply trying to validate their way of parenting and because you're showing them something different, that is probably challenging. It is probably making them think about some of the choices that they made. I often find that with humans, if I say,

oh, no, I no longer eat, I don't know, peanut butter. People would say, well, why don't you eat peanut butter? I guess, you know, peanut butter is really good because when people are doing things that are different from us, it makes us think about what we're doing or what we do it. It is not personal, it is a natural reaction to differences. Once we develop that understanding, I think we have to move towards letting them know,

it's not okay to correct you in front of your child. Each and every time they correct you, saying it once will not be enough, letting it slide is not a good idea. You have to say, pull them to the side, hey, I'm in to miss the parenting. I am aware that you do not agree with this process. However, as I am parenting in my unique way, please do not make comments that under my parenting and impact my relationship with my child.

Say it over and over until they get it. If you get to a point of, oh my gosh, I've said there's so much in there not listening, I think that's when you start to think about their presence, right? How much do we want our children to be around someone who is constantly undermining things? As I have always set boundaries with them,

sometimes we just aren't setting the boundary and we just want them to stop. We have to be very clear consistently about what those boundaries are. And most of the time it will stop. I think that's amazing guidance and there's a couple of things I want to highlight. I love that you started your response, Nedra, by speaking to how important it is for the boundary setter, to kind of acknowledge whether it's verbally or just in their own mind. This other person has an opinion, and yeah, I don't have to agree with it, but it's valid for them.

Like, that is their opinion. It came from somewhere. I actually find that when I speak to that difference or kind of when I see it, I know you parent it in a different way. I know you were doing the best that you could do with the information you had available. And in that way, me and you are actually very similar, even though it looks like something different on the surface, right? Something like that. I actually find it's easier for me to kind of set and hold boundaries,

and it's more likely someone else also will kind of respect that boundary, because now my boundary doesn't feel to them like an indictment on their character, because I've kind of said, yeah, I don't think you're a horrible, awful person. But if I don't say that, then every time I say, you know, some version of, I need you not to criticize my parenting in front of my kid, I think I'm saying that. But probably my in-laws hearing you think I'm a horrible person who messed up my kids, right? And then of course they're gonna rail against that. So actually having some kind of generous interpretation

of someone else's behavior, I actually think it helps hold boundaries because then we can kind of put up that wall or that rule and we can be aligned kind of on the same team about it. Yeah. It's important to not assume that people will stop doing things without us telling them to stop literally saying stop this. Yeah, and what you said also once isn't enough and it's not because everyone is awful, but you know, for all of us habits are hard to

shift, right? And I don't think any of us have ever shifted a habit in a single intervention. And same thing, right, to kind of say, in order to really have this stop, I need to consistently show up and communicate kind of the same message over and over. And I think we can all take a deep breath and say, oh, I don't have the energy for that. That's so annoying. It is so annoying. Like, and it's the end of the day.

It's the end of the day. You are already annoyed. It's not saying anything. It's so true, right? Because that resentment feeling, I often think resentments of feeling I know in my life I have when I haven't set a boundary as consistently as I clearly needed to.

And then instead of speaking up, I'm left with that awful sinking feeling. And I hate resentment. I just find it like such a powerless, awful feeling. And it is one of the motivators for me to speak up. Because sometimes I think, if I don't say this thing, maybe in this case to my in-law, I know the feeling. I'm going to have it night in my bed. I'm going to be seething with resentment.

I don't want to have my night look like that. So it's worth the kind of discomfort of kind of speaking up now. So one more question about the in-law thing, because this came up a lot too. So someone does speak up. And then the in-law in this situation kind of rolls their eyes. You're so sensitive. You and all this new age parenting, you know? You get that kind of response.

What then? Your parenting is new age to people who parented 40 years ago. What they did was new age and what your children will do will be new age as well. We will continue using this term forever and ever. And sometimes when we challenge people, they have a response to it. We can let them know, hey, I

understand you're upset. However, again, please don't say this in front of my children. Let's step in a separate room and talk about this. You can maybe, certainly don't shut down their feelings because people are allowed to respond, but it is sometimes the place that they respond and the circumstances in which they're responding. So you can say, that has some value too. I understand that it's difficult to hear this new information,

but we're always getting new information about many things that are improving. If you have an iPhone 13, it is much better than the iPhone 1. Things are constantly evolving the way we do puzzles, the places we get all these things. And so sometimes we're minding people that when times change methods do too. And that's not necessarily a bad thing that a lot of this stuff that they did was based on research, what they knew. And a lot of things that you're doing, it's based on research and what you know. It's just that we're moving in a different direction based on our understanding of information.

So helpful. Okay, we're gonna move on. I told my 10 year old no iPad time. I then had to go to the bathroom. I come into his room to say it's time for dinner and he is sitting on his bed playing on his iPad. What do you do when you set a boundary, and then your child crosses it right away?

You learn the lesson, and when you say no iPad, you have to remove the iPad because it seems like that kid in particular has a hard time holding that boundary. I think sometimes we will put it on the kid to say, you know, a six-thirty, it going to be time for you to take your shower and get ready for bed and have 640. We're like, why haven't they moved? We sometimes have to move them.

We have to go to them and say, okay, it is 630 now. I'm going to walk you upstairs because when I want it to do things and I was a kid, I would conveniently forget that my mother said, when the street lights come on, come to the porch, unless you came and got me, I was going to be running up and down the street, but once you say, hey, Nadra, you know, it's time to come in the house and say, okay, she's awake, she's ready.

You know, kids want to do kids stuff. They want to play video games. They want to be on iPads. They want to watch endless amounts of TV. And so if that is your boundary, you have to uphold it. And we will have to shift our methods as parents to help them develop some of those structures that we want them to have in the future,

that sort of resistance. It can be really hard to say to someone, when something is right there, you know, don't touch this iPad. I wonder what would happen if we just out of sight, out of mind, perhaps a key could go grab something else and they can't reach it or find it, so that really sets them up for success.

I love what you just said. In a particular phrase, you said that so kind of warms my heart, is your kid had a hard time, right? And I think that sometimes when we set a boundary, especially with a kid, and we verbally do it, and then in this parents words, my child crosses it right away, we have this tendency to interpret it through the lens of disrespect. Like, my child doesn't respect me. Where I'm pretty sure, Nedro, right, when you were a kid playing past the time your mom wanted you home,

like, I can't imagine you're there playing with your friends being like, oh, I do not respect my mom. I'm saying. I'm disrespecting her. Oh, yeah. Right. You're just in the zone. You're in your play zone.

Whatever you are doing. And I think we all, right now, if you imagine something you are fully engaged in. And then actually, if it's even something on the screen, I don't know, one person who has said they've never told themselves they were going to be off their phone by X time at night and not found themselves on their phone like three hours later, right, that you're engaged in something. Maybe there's mindlessness to it, or maybe it's just you're having a great time. You're really not in a place to inhibit the continuation of that activity.

It's not that you don't respect the boundary you set or someone set for you. You just can't access it, right? And I think that's so right, especially when it comes to screens. When our kids take the iPad, when we say no, when we tell a kid, turn off the TV after the show and we're busy doing something else and he's, wait a second, they're on the third episode, not the first.

Our kids not really crossing a boundary as much as maybe our kid is struggling to inhibit an urge or our kids just not developmentally in the place to have the mindfulness to stop themselves. And I think it requires what you're saying, this embodying of our authority. Like if I'm going to say to my kid, no iPad time tonight, I have to kind of embody my authority and maybe take that iPad away, put it on my shelf, put it somewhere, they can't see it. And not because I think my kid's a bad kid, actually because I on my shelf, put it somewhere, they can't see it.

And not because I think my kids a bad kid, actually, because I think my kids a good kid, and I want to help them with that kind of inhibition rather than set them up for failure. And this is why I hide the candy in my house, mostly so I can- From yourself for your kids. Mostly so I can eat it secretly. But also, so they're not constantly like, can I have candy? Can I have candy? You don't even see the candy, and then I bring it out and I'm like it secretly, but also so they're not constantly like can I have candy can I have candy? You don't even see the candy and then I bring it out and I'm like hey here's some candy and they're really excited But what happens when we have these things available that we don't want them to do all the time

They're going to move towards those and I don't know if it's necessarily like their fault They're bad. They need to really figure out how to manage themselves as much as they are human with urges and just like us, it is very hard to stick to limits when you don't want to. Yeah. One quick side note about boundaries.

Boundaries are an important element of every single difficult parenting moment. Whenever we're managing a sibling argument or a sleep protest or a meltdown, we are really confronting our relationship with boundaries, with our ability to make decisions and tolerate other people's distress. This is why the Good Inside platform. We have so many workshops and so much content about how to help parents hold boundaries. It's going to be the key thing that helps you be the parent you want to be. And it's also going to be the key thing that helps you feel

more confident, more worthy, more enough. If you haven't already checked out the platform, here's something I can promise you. It's going to help your kids. It's going to help you even more. Okay, back to the episode. All right, here's another situation. I tell myself every single week that I'm going to have, quote,

down time. And yet, we're already laughing, menu. Right, and yet, it gets to be the end of the week. I look back and I see my calendar was packed with a million things and I feel totally depleted. How do I set boundaries to really take care of myself? This is a good one. I hear this and I immediately think, why is your downtime at the end of the week? Let's say you need uptime. So on Sunday, Monday, those are wonderful times

to have that uptime because I posted something recently about the difference between self-care and aftercare. And I think that that now in time that we're trying to build in after we've done everything, it is aftercare and not self-care. Self-care is restorative, it's preventive, it's all about taking care of yourself on the front end and not the back end. When we are engaged in aftercare, it is very hard to take care of ourselves as a second or third thought to pencil that time in on Friday when we're already depleted. It can be easier to just add yourself at the beginning. You know that you'll

meet downtime at the end of the week. Why not start the week with what you need? And then from there, do your week. You know, you're gonna cheat something. Don't cheat yourself. Figure out some ways to really get into the practice of taking care of yourself, because it's needed for all the other things. It's needed for you to be a parent.

It's needed for you to be a parent. It's needed for you to be a wonderful worker. It is needed first and not as a reaction to all of these other things happening. I have some kind of, I think, maybe thoughts to extend that or just to add a different element to it. I was talking to a coworker of mine recently about how we schedule meetings. We're talking about our calendars because we both work at good and

insightful time and we both have many kids who we also want to spend time with. It's a lot. It was really interesting to go about this. We were talking about how we have meeting requests a lot and choosing, well, I'm free, so I have that meeting. I don't schedule my time that way. I don't schedule meetings based on what my calendar tells me. If I have a meeting, I'll go. That's not what I mean.

But if my calendar, quote, tells me I'm free, but my body says that's just not an ideal time for a meeting. I don't offer that time to someone because Gmail is not the ultimate decider of my life, right? And it was really an interesting conversation. And so for this parent and everyone else who finds themselves thinking, my calendar just books up. I wonder how often it books up

because in theory, your calendar kind of tells you you're free. Even though you don't want to be free, or you don't want to be free for that meeting, you want to maybe be free to sit on the couch, right? And as a starting point, given our calendars do kind of dictate so much of our lives, I feel like a great first thing is just for everyone to go to their calendar right now and to actually block out time. I used to do this when I had a harder time doing this. I literally would write still time and I'd make myself be still literally and it was so

unenjoyable for like a year. I was crawling out of my skin with like the urge for productivity and plans, but I would make myself, I mean, I wouldn't like lay just on the bed. I'd like read or maybe I'd like watch a TV show in the middle of the day, which felt so wrong for some reason until it felt so right, you know. But I would really schedule it in. And it gave me kind of a different way of looking at my calendar to the point now where I don't feel like I need to block it out in the exact same way. To now realize my calendar and what it's telling me is really only one part of kind of my decision-making about what I do with my time.

Absolutely. We should remember that we are managing our calendars, the way that I heard that it's almost as if the calendar is managing us. Yeah, and creating those spaces to do nothing, to read a book, to watch a TV show is very important for your mental development and growth, and we don't take advantage of downtime enough. It is important to just block that time off. I do it all the time. I have huge chunks on my schedule of doing nothing. And to make it concrete for everyone, because Nedra, one of the things I love about so many of your posts also is you help people with the words because some people, they want to do it and having someone else's words or scripts that helps them kind of start that process. And some words I will use are just, I'm not available then.

That time doesn't work for me. Oh, those times don't work. How about this instead? Right? And maybe as soon as I say it, it seems obvious. Right. Like, no one else is staring at my calendar or even if someone was. I'd feel comfortable saying that that doesn't work for me. And if they said, oh, it looks like it does, I would say, no, I know I need to use that time

for something else. I mean, that's it. Right. Nobody knows how you need to use your time other than you. And empowering yourself with that can really change into the structure of our week. And when we really don't want to do something, it's important that we're really clear that we don't want to do it, and we're not misleading and saying, oh, that doesn't work for me this week. Or, you know, let me look at my schedule.

Sometimes we do have to say, I have a lot going on right now, and I'm not willing to take on another project. I'm in the middle of something, and I don't have a weightless, I don't have any idea of when I'll be available. Thank you for considering me, but I cannot do it. I love that in a period. Like, yes, that's a lot.

And I think it goes back to the beginning of... The reason that's so hard is usually because we go into, but what if, and then we have a set of someone's reactions, right? Or maybe we notice that urge to control, but someone else might be mad and just saying to yourself, oh, there I go, using someone else's feelings, potential feelings, who knows, about my decision is the data I'm using to change my decision. What if the data you really used to make my decision is the data inside of me saying, I don't ever want to have a meeting with this person. I know that. That's the case. I don't want to have it now. Right? And then what if I trust myself to learn how to kind of manage what happens

next? Right? And when you do that, it's so hard to make that shift and it has to happen kind of just one small moment at a time But that resentment really goes down and feeling like you're acting in a way that's actually in accordance with your wants and needs Goes up and that that can feel really really liberating right Okay, I have a final question Why is saying no to other people so hard? Okay, I have a final question. Why is saying no to other people so hard? And is there anything I can do to start to get a little bit better at it?

One of the reasons that is really hard is because we're thinking about how we feel when we're told no. No, it's just not an easy word for us to say or for us to accept from others. And we know that when someone doesn't want to come to our party or when someone is saying, no, I cannot help you or no, I will not be available. We feel something. And we are trying to prevent this for other people, which is super nice, you know, all kudos to us being compassionate to thinking of other people. This is amazing. However, we cannot exist in a world without saying no and receiving no. I remember years ago, I can't remember

when, but there was this whole movement around not saying no to kids. And you had to say all this other stuff. The creative, yes, that was part of the creative. Yeah, okay. Is that what it was called? I didn't have kids at the time. So I don't, I don't even remember. But it was, you know, these parents would come to me in therapy and I'm like, just tell them no. But I'm trying to just say no to them. Like the world will tell them no. Like people aren't at work thinking,

how do I say a creative? It's like, no, I cannot help you with this. We have to build some tolerance around accepting no. I think it does get easier when we start to understand that this is the natural order of things. I say no, someone says no to me. Like, this is what happens. It is the circle of life. When we are trying to say yes to everything, we are now making people believe that oh people say yes to you all the time. This is not true. People say no. I love an enthusiastic yes for the person who typically says oh I usually wouldn't do this for people when they say yes to me I'm like yes they really mean

it they're passionate. This is what they want to do. I want to be in relationships and in connection with people who are enthusiastic with it, yes, enthusiastic about the connection. I don't want to bitter, yes, I don't want to resentful, yes, I don't want to, okay, I want, yes, I want, you know, like that's what I want. And I think that's what we all want. And when we show up to things with a half-note energy or 25% yes and we've committed to it, it shows in our delivery. It shows in our delivery of the service,

of the information, of the connection, people can tell when you've barely said yes. Just, you know, you just have a slither of, okay, yes. You know, it's like, can we say yes when we really mean it, when we want to do things? Can we use it as a way to operate in our gifts and say no, when we really don't want to do things. It is so authentic to be able to say yes and no appropriately and according to who we

are and what we want. So powerful. When I first heard this question, and of course I think we both probably hear this question a lot, the first thing that came to mind for me was, when we say no to someone, I think what we're really saying is, you want something of me and I want something different for myself.

That's what we're saying. And if I think about why no is hard for so many of us, and I think it's hard across gender lines, I think I hear a lot from women, and I think so many of us women were raised to be kind of like good girls. There was like an easiness of that role, and being a good girl or being good, right, in quotes,

is really saying, what do you want of me? Oh yes, yes, yes, I want that for myself too. How amazing is that? Whatever you want of me, I want for myself. It's convenience. And I do think so many of our struggles to say no came from the lessons we learned early on that are kind of our best chance to be valued by people

and get along with people and to have people want to be around us was by paying attention to what people want of us. And then aligning ourselves accordingly, kind of there's a plasticity. I'm just going to, yep, I'll get into that lane. And it's a pretty new thing. The know is really representative of like, I know what I want for myself. And I think I'm worthy of in this moment, making that a greater value than what you want of me.

And I love to get people super concrete things to do right away. But on this one, if nose really hard for you, like I feel like sometimes we just got a call spade a spade, like there's nothing I'm going to say or Nedger's going to say right now. They're going to be like, oh my goodness, that was the little thing now my whole life's changed. I do think the starting point is saying, what was no like for me in the earliest years of my life?

And maybe it was the word no, or maybe it was just, what was it like in my family when I really had a strong want or need for myself that was relatively inconvenient in the family system? My whole family loved basketball, and I was the one who hate basketball, or I was the one who had big tantrums in a family

that was like pretty emotionally stoic. And what was it like for me to really have wantson needs that were different? And then probably what did I learn accordingly? And I think that's a really important thing to go through. And then because I do have a hard time leaving things, you know, kind of more nebulous, telling yourself, like, not when you're ready to say no, because that's too, kind of, you're too activated. But just even right now, like, my wants and needs matter, my wants and needs are valuable even in the moments

when someone else's wants and needs of me are contradictory. My wants and needs matter. If you start crying when you kind of tell yourself that in the mirror, that's totally normal. I think it's a sign that something some young part of us has been waiting to hear forever. But we all know the word no. The reason it's hard to access is because of those, I think, deeper attachment lessons. Such a heavy note to end on.

I feel like we have to do something more. That is a heavy note. We can leave with a song. Oh, yeah. Let's close out with a song. Oh, yeah, like a... Let's close out on a song. Wow. Do you know any tunes from Frozen? I'm more in the in-kanto places these days than... And you do not want to hear my let it go, Ness.

Trust me, it's too many octaves to change. Yeah, okay. But what we will end with, actually, like, I'm going to ask you to give a take away.'m gonna give the second and I'm gonna defer to you on the third if someone's thinking okay three things I'm gonna walk away with probably maybe just one of them at a time What's the first thing? Self-care is preventative. It is not something that you do after Taking care of everyone after unloading your schedule. it is something you do on the front end. Love that.

Okay, two. We can't set boundaries and control someone's reaction to those boundaries. We have to set boundaries and learn how to tolerate the feelings we have and other people have as a result. Back to you. People's opinions are based on their perspective and we cannot deny their perspective. We have to honor that and accept those differences while setting

boundaries. Amazing. Tell people where they can find more of you and how they can kind of learn about some of the things you teach. Yes, so I have a book set boundaries fine piece. I have a workbook, the set boundaries workbook. It's available. Everywhere books are sold. I am on Instagram at Nedra Toobb and to find out more about me, you can visit my website, NedraToobb.com. Nedra, thank you so much for being here and for really setting a side time to share so many of your ideas. I can't wait for another conversation with you. Thank you.

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