Good Inside with Dr. Becky - Stop Asking Your Kid Who Their Best Friend Is, with Adam Grant

Episode Date: October 13, 2026

Every parent asks their kid some version of the same question: “Who's your best friend?” Adam Grant thinks that's the wrong thing to be asking, at any age.His new book Vibe breaks friendship into four types: pals, allies, companions, and associates. Most of us assume we need one person who's all four. Grant's research says that's a setup for disappointment, and that kids who are genuinely well-liked at school still feel excluded and isolated if they don't have one "bestie."Dr. Becky and Adam get into why it takes about 50 hours, on average, to make a friend (and up to 200 to make a close one), why a scary hike or a rough IKEA build can bond people faster than anything easy, and why the person who reacts the biggest in your house usually ends up running it.*Thank you to Yoto for making this episode possible. Get 15% off your order with the code DRBECKY15 at YotoPlay.com. New customers only, ends October 31, offer valid on select products only. Terms apply. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Okay, I want to vent for a sec. How many times have you or I read, I don't know, a piece of parenting advice or, I don't know, some quiz and it ended with, you really need more friends in your life. You have your kids, you're busy, but you need more friends. And I don't know about you, but I'm thinking, when am I making such friends? Like, are you also going to carve out? I don't know, the three hours I used to have on a Saturday morning, morning starting at 11 a.m. in college when I would make friends over brunch. I don't have the time anymore. Well, this is going to be a different type of episode where we're actually talking about adult

relationships, but I promise you, it's anything but the typical advice. And the reason I'm excited to bring this to you is because I was really excited after reading Adam Grant's new book, Vibe. One of the things he talks about in this book is that we tend to value this idea of best friend across so many different stages of our life. when really we can value kind of the constellation of close relationships we have. Like maybe that person that I see at work where, I don't know, we have fun. We talk about things.

We work on something well. But let me be honest, we're not having a coffee outside of the office. I'm definitely not calling this person on a Saturday. Maybe I'm not valuing that relationship appropriately. That doesn't mean I don't also need friends, but there was such freedom. to this way of thinking that I knew I had to talk about it with you. So that's what we're going to do today. Let's jump in.

All right, here's where I want to start. I feel like every parent being included is tempted to ask our kid the question at every point in the year, who's your best friend? Tell me about your best friend. And one of the things I got from your book is that this is just the wrong question to be asking to our kids, to ourselves. So what should we be thinking about instead? Becky, this is such a fun place to start our conversation.

I think, I would say two things to that question. The first one is best friends are overrated. I did not know they're a relatively recent phenomenon that for most of American history, people did not have one best friend, really seemed to start during the 1800s. Most countries don't limit people to one best friend. And I think the implications of this are profound. It turns out there have been multiple studies showing that

even if kids are well liked in school, if they don't have one best friend, they feel excluded. and isolated. Hmm. So I'd say first, stop looking for a best friend. Question about that study or your understanding of it. If they don't have one best friend, they feel excluded. Are you saying we've a little done that by our focus on that being the most important thing?

Yeah, the defining feature of friendship for kids is having a bestie. And if you don't have that, you feel like you don't have friends. I've actually watched our kids go through this a little bit. When one of our kids was in middle school, there were lots of friendlies, but there wasn't one bestie. And every day, we had a conversation about where can I find that person? And how do I build that? As opposed to saying, wait a minute, you have a lot of people you like.

Maybe that's okay. And there's pros and cons. You have a lot of people you like. There's a lot of different options. The one cod, and I always think about it this way, is when that snow day comes, so you and I are in the Northeast, you don't have kind of complete. conviction in the one person you might have a plan with. But also, I think you're saying the more we focus on that is the only thing that matters, the more that situation is going to kind of give

our kids some anxiety. I think that's right. And I think that in general, kids might be better off with a few close friends than one best friend. And I think this goes to the other point, which is, I think kids need different kinds of friends. And I never thought about this until I wrote five. and now it's all I can think about. You talk about four types. I love a little graph or typology. So can you walk me through these four types of relationships? Yeah.

So I think we can vibe on four different wavelengths. I've come to think of them as associates, allies, pals, and companions. Associates are like one step above acquaintances. You have compatible needs, but you're probably not having any kind of meaningful interaction with them. They might be the person that gives you the notes when you miss class. or they might be the kid on your team who comes with the extra pair of cleats when you forget your soccer shoes. I think meaningful connections are the other three types, allies, pals, and companions. So your allies are people who share your goals.

You're on a mission together. Your pals are people who share your interests and hobbies. You have fun together. And your companions are people who share your values. You have deep affection and care for each other. And when people say bestie, are they talking about that last one? I think when people say bestie, they're saying this is my go-to companion, but also they're a pal and an ally. So they live in the center of that Venn diagram.

And you're saying all four relationships are valuable, especially the last three. You can have really meaningful connections you can vibe with people in any of those categories. Yeah, you can actually be, you can have different levels of closeness on each of those wavelengths. So you can have a go-to ally who is your favorite person. to do a group project with that doesn't have a great sense of humor and isn't the pal that you want to get together with when you're going to watch a funny movie. Is this like the mom friend where like we can we can carpal together? I know that maybe she'll tell me, hey, do you remember tomorrow's picture day?

Because I definitely did not remember. My kids are going to go to school wearing nothing important. And at the same time, I don't know, I have some emotional issue I'm going through. I might not call her. Yep. That's my ally. Yeah, I mean, I don't have mom. friends, but that sounds like a great ally. I'm your mom friend. Are you? I think so. I think you might be,

actually. So in our adult life, do we have more of one category than the other, or some easier to find? I've actually been collecting data on this. And what I can tell you is companions are the hardest to find. But people vary a lot in whether their go-to is to accumulate a lot of allies, which people who love work tend to. People who are active volunteers or joiners tend to be in lots of groups where they can collaborate to do lots of things. I think for most people, the most common category is pals. Because it's just, it's the lowest bar to say, yeah, we have something we like doing together or talking about together and I enjoy their company.

And I think that's probably where most people have the majority of their friends. I'm thinking about the parent listening. Let's say this is a parent who works outside the home. And they say, yeah, there's a million people I talk to. I have those water cooler moments. I have someone we travel really, you know, well together. We have interesting conversations. but maybe they're missing another relationship.

What you're saying is maybe they haven't found that companion through work or they haven't invested that time outside of work to find that person. But they have those other really meaningful connections. But that kind of helps clarify maybe what am I looking for that I'm not getting? Yeah, I think that we need every type of relationship in our life. And we are closer with people if we vibe on multiple wavelengths. So if your partner or your best friend is your ally, your pal, and your companion, you are going to have a really tight bond with them.

But you also might be putting too much pressure on that relationship. I was going to say I got a little nervous at the idea of my heart was racing at someone being all four. Yeah, I mean, I think there's nothing wrong with having people in our lives who are. But I've read a series of studies now showing that if you go to different friends for different things, you actually have higher well-being. and I think that it actually helps with avoiding the disappointment and sometimes betrayal of having different expectations. Like the estrangement. Estrangement is such a common response.

I love that you chose that word, not because I like estrangement, but because I've seen it happen and I didn't have language for it until this framework sort of landed in my head after a lot of research. I've seen a lot of people and I've lived this personally be let down by a friend that they thought, was a companion when they opened up about something really hard in their life and found out, you know what, that person is just a pal or an ally. And I think what a lot of people do then is they say, I can't count on that person. They're out. They weren't there for me. What they should be doing is saying, you know what, that person is not a reliable companion for me. That doesn't mean they can't be a good ally or pal. You're saying, I have to recategorize. I didn't even know maybe I had this person in a certain category, but maybe my left down is showing that I

did, but maybe it's not throw everything out the window. Maybe I need a new category for this person. I think that's right. I think that the feeling of disappointment and betrayal is often what clarifies your own expectations. And so when a friend lets you down, that's actually a mirror for you to discover. What kind of relationship did I think we were building? What kind of connection did I think we had?

And I either need to adjust my expectations or communicate to them about what I thought we were or could be. You know, when you have kids, you meet all these people who you might not originally on your own and become friends with years ago, but you become friendly with them because your kids are in music class together. You're on the soccer field with them, run the parent group text. And maybe in our head, we start to form this idea of, oh, that person is just like my best friend from college.

Like, we're going to have the same connection. I can rely on them for the same things. Then we find out about something. Oh, my goodness. I can't believe they had a birthday dinner and they invited this person and not me. How could they not invite me? And I feel hurt, which on some level is a feeling I have because maybe I didn't even know I had a certain expectation. I thought this person was my true companion.

But maybe actually, if I take a moment, maybe they could still be, you're saying, a good ally. Yeah. They could even be a close ally. Somebody that you really trust when it comes to responding when you're in a pinch. Yeah. And you need your kids to be picked up from somewhere and you can't make it to school or practice in time. Yeah. There are people who might be, they might have really great skills to bring to the table.

But ultimately, for whatever reason, they are not your dream coffee done. Yeah. They're not the person who is there for you emotionally. Yeah. And I think, you know, it's funny, actually, you mentioned this example of, like, I didn't get invited. We actually had that happen. Basically, Allison and I met another couple through, like, our kids being friends with their parents. And then we really hit it off with the parents.

and then COVID happened. And we didn't see them for a while. And then we found out there was a big party that we weren't invited to. And some friends that were equally close did get the invite. And so the first thing we do is we asked the friends, do you know what happened? We were there. We couldn't believe you weren't there. We didn't know why.

My whole life, Becky, I have avoided that kind of confrontation. It's too awkward. Don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. I don't want to be that person anymore. I want to be a person who says in a meaningful relationship, you care enough to tell the truth. And I want the people in my life to be forthcoming with me. And so I actually, I reached out to the guy and I said, I was really surprised that we weren't invited. And I wanted to find out, is there something that we did to offend you?

Because if so, I want to make it right. And he wrote back and he said, I feel like such an idiot. We thought you wouldn't want to come. and we thought you would feel pressure to come. And we didn't want to put that burden on you because we knew it was not a convenient time and you guys had gone through some tough stuff and you had a lot on your plate.

And I was like, wow, ship's passing in the night. And that conversation has rekindled our bond. We have gotten together with them multiple times. We've done family activities. We've done a couple double date activities. And I should have known because there's a whole body of experiments showing that when people are randomly assigned to have that kind of confrontation or give that

sort of tough love, two weeks later, they are closer. They feel more connected to the person that they just opened up to, and the other person feels it too. And so I'm not saying that you should have every fight with every person, or you should give every bit of maybe constructive criticism that you have. Some thoughts do need to be filtered. But I think there's sometimes power and saying, you know what, this relationship matters to me. Yeah. And I wanted to let you know that this hurt me because I care about you and I care about us and I don't want this to create distance between us.

Yeah. There was another path, which is I could have just said nothing and thought for a long time about saying nothing because I didn't know how they would take it. And I didn't want to hurt their feelings by saying I was hurt. I didn't want them to feel guilty. I'm sure there were lots of good reasons for that. I don't feel entitled to be invited to their party. But I did want them to know that I care about them.

Yes. And I wanted to rekindle our connection. Yeah. And I think if I had just said nothing and we had tried to reconnect, we would have almost had to start over. It had been so long, we would have had to kind of rebuild the relationship as opposed to saying, hey, I miss what we had before. Yeah. And we'd like to pick up where we left off. Love that.

So one of the things that I was reading your book and thinking about those four categories of vibing with someone. with someone or for categories of connections is I was thinking about the difference between focusing on my kid's best friend or who they're closest with or who's your snow day person, you know? You're very into this third day. Because it just like represents to me and a, you know, I like things that are concrete, brings it up. Versus helping my kid value the constellation of relationships.

Yes. I love that. Really different. I wish we had this conversation. when I was writing the book, because I would have put this in the family chapter, for sure. As soon as I hear you say that, I think, oh, what I should have been doing all along is helping our kids look at who in their life is a good ally, pal, companion, and associate. And there are, I've seen this so much in clubs and sports.

There are kids who are great teammates that are actually not really good pals at all. You can count on them on the field. They will bring their A game to the school play or to debate. But they're just like they're pretty goal oriented and task focused and they don't know how to chill. Yeah. I think you want them on your group project. Big time. For sure.

And like, I don't know. I'm guessing you were that person in a group project and so was I. Yeah. But I think that that layer of nuance, it allows you, I think it gives you the freedom to not write people off and instead say, oh, there's. a role for them in my life. Yeah. And I'm just thinking about, you know, how I don't often say to my kids, but I'm going to now, so amazing you found someone that you can do math, you know, within class. So awesome that you love doing that Spanish project with that kid. Right. And then if my kid says, yeah, but, you know, we don't hang out at recess, 100%, you're right. Totally fine. Great at that project,

not interested in the same things you're interested in at recess. Both are true. No, and that doesn't even mean that they're not a potential pal. It means recess does not have the set of activities that you happen to enjoy together. Yes. But you might really have fun playing video games or reading or doing jigsaw puzzles or whatever your go-to hobby is. You wrote a whole book about vibes, about connection, and you've been also really candid that you felt pretty alone and friendless as when you were younger. So tell me a little bit about that back then. Like what was going on for you in those years? This is where I see you as a clinical psychologist in action. Welcome to my office.

Where's your couch, Becky? What do you want to know? Tell me, I'm an open book. I guess I'm curious a little. Well, two things. I'll share both questions. Starting with what was just going on for you then? How would you explain how you kind of experienced those years?

And the second question, only after that is how does Adam today kind of understand maybe through the work that you did? what was going on for you. Okay, so I'm an introvert. I was extremely shy and extremely nerdy. And that led to, I think, a fair amount of bullying in elementary school. But also, I had a bunch of friends who I now know were pals. We just, we loved comics and sports cards and playing basketball and football and hockey in every sport we could do. And I just, there were a bunch of kids nearby who I was lucky to click with that way. And then we got to middle school. And we stopped doing. doing a bunch of those activities.

And I didn't realize it, right? We just kind of evolved. So we were doing our own fantasy football and basketball leagues and keeping score by hand every week. And I should have noticed, and I didn't at the time, instead of appreciating the stats that I was calculating, a couple of those kids in the group started calling me Mr. Facts and making fun of me. And I thought I was adding value to the group, but apparently I was out nerding the group.

And I didn't really notice that they were, like, I remember feeling like I was on the outside of a group that I was, I had formerly been on the inside of. But I didn't spend a lot of time thinking about it. And then, like, one day they just kind of dropped me from the group. And I felt isolated. I felt rejected. I felt confused. What did I do? But I don't think it took as much of the toll on me as it, as it.

it might have because I had two really close friends who were not part of the group. And I did not know this at the time, Becky, but looking back, one of the main things we had in common was none of us really had other friends at that point. But we were still doing all the palat activities. We played video games together. We actually were on the phone during Seinfeld and Friends so that we could talk during the commercials about our favorite lines. And we, and we played a ton of sports. And so I think we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we We just kind of stayed kids longer in a way. And that allowed us to stay close.

And I think looking back, I should have paid more attention to the rituals that were shifting, right? That I was still, like, I've come to think we all have a fun age. Like, what is, like, what are you in pal mode? Like, what are the activities you're doing? What are your go-to pal activities, Becky? I mean, I think about, like, now or my peak? If you were going to go, if you had a day for pure fun, what would you do? Okay, so I would start with this like dance kind of exercise but dancey class with friends.

Maybe take a walk in the park. I don't know, maybe I do because actually you know this about me. I love a ropes course. Did that with your daughter once. I would like go do some fun adventure outdoors that involves a little bit of risk and ends with us saying like, I can't believe we did that. And then I'd probably eat like a bunch of, again, kind of new adventurous food with that person. Okay, love it. So I would say your fun age is somewhere 30s or 40s. By the way, I think I'm way more fun now than I was.

Wow. Years ago. So you pegged me right. This is going to save me a lot of money in therapy. Thank you. Your activities are age-appropriate, in other words, right? Yeah. As opposed to you were knitting and doing crosswords. No, no. That would be in the future. And yeah. No. Okay. So I think, so my fun age is nine, roughly. my fun day is I'm at a water park

I am jumping on a trampoline I'm playing video games doing Legos and that's still kind of my dream day which is one of my favorite things about having kids who are you know who are that age I was kind of frozen in time with these rituals that were so fun

in fourth and fifth grade and didn't know other ways to bond as a seventh and eighth grader and I was lucky that I had two and then a third friend by ninth grade who shared those. But I think if I could go back, I would say, okay, different people have different activities that are probably going to create a pal bond. You can, you know, you can evolve that and try out some things that you haven't. Like, I should have done debate,

for example. That would have been a natural fit for my love of arguing. Never, not once. I like, have so many more questions for a different episode for you, because I feel like you would have just crushed debate. I feel like I don't know if I would have crushed it. I would have loved it more than anything. And so joining a group where I could do an activity that I would enjoy, but it was also going to appeal to other people, would have made a ton of sense. And it just wasn't on my radar. I think what you're saying, Tommy, if I got this right, is looking back at those ages.

And it's interesting to hear you describe them as friendless, but to also say there were some of these key people. But as so many of the overlapping areas of interest were no longer interesting to a group of friends, and maybe they developed other areas without you. Yeah, they did. You didn't simultaneously get the new activities that maybe other kids your age were doing that would have given you more pal opportunities. I think that's right. I want to ask you about some things that stop me in this book.

And it kind of is along the category of like the myth of instant chemistry or I just knew or friendship at first sight. I don't know. 50 hours to go from a stranger to a friend, but 100 by the time you're in college and 200 after. Did I get those numbers right? Roughly. Roughly. I think the original finding, this is Jeffrey Hall's research, was it takes on average about 50 hours of interaction to make a friend and then either 100 or 200 to make a good or close friend. Talk to me about that because I think it's interesting I'm talking to you right now, at least in the New York area, in the beginning.

of school. And who do you play with? Who's your friend? These are questions we ask, I don't know, 16 hours into the school year. And so let's just start with 50. Like, it takes a little while. It doesn't have to, though. So that's an average. And if you look at the data both on college students and on adults, you're coming to college and you're meeting a whole bunch of new people or adults, it's people who move to a new city. And they don't know anyone there. Yeah, on average, it's 50 or 100 hours, but guess what? Some people make a good friend in just five hours. Five hours. And I know you know the research on fast friends. There are ways to accelerate chemistry and

closeness. And so I don't think it's a problem to be asking, we, I mean, we just started the school year, right? First week, our kids are coming home saying, I made a new friend. I think that's great. What I've tried to do is just make those categories a little bit looser and say, who did you meet that might be friend material? Or if I was going to be one of those psychologists who brings my work home, I would say, okay, who's a potential ally, pal, companion, associate? But I think we're too quick to categorize because of the insecurity. Initially, I want to feel like I found my people or my group or that best friend.

And so really quickly, we want to put people in a bucket as opposed to saying, who did you enjoy interacting? Who did you have a really fun conversation or do a... a hilarious activity with. Who did you, like, who did you really like working on a project with this week? Who asked a thoughtful question in class that you would love to study with? And I think, I think just allowing for a little bit more of that time. Yeah.

Prevents people from making snap judgments and maybe pre-committing to people who are not going to align, which is a problem. I think that's a really interesting thing too, because I always think we're our kids mirrors to some degree and our kids are noticing. Like, what version of them do we reflect back? how excited am I that, oh, they seem to have a best friend, or they notice what we ask and, right, what we spend time talking about. And that, do that, I don't know, what I'm trying to hold at once is my kid is a first impression of someone, but also leaving room to think again, to modify to say, hold on a second, you know, I had a lot of fun with this person at recess the first week, but ever since this new kid came along, that kid hasn't been so nice.

to me, right? So how do we kind of help our kids honor that first impression, but also leave room for updates? You know, I actually, Allison taught me something about this when we first met. She, we had, we had some conversation and then I think I had sent her an article that I liked, and she said, another piece of the atom puzzle falls into place. I never thought of looking at a person like a puzzle before. But this actually resonates really well with the way that we think about personality and values, which is when we meet somebody, we tend to judge them by their most dominant trait. So, you know, somebody who's an extrovert that will stand out immediately. Somebody who's intensely disagreeable, we will notice that about them. Somebody who is emotionally

reactive and leaks anxiety. That's going to be written all over their face and body language, whether they mean it or not. What we forget to do then is see them in 3D and look. at all the other dimensions of them. And I think looking at people like a puzzle and saying, okay, I just saw one piece. And there are a lot of other pieces I haven't discovered yet. And if I interact with them in different situations or I observe them in different moments and different roles, different pieces are going to show up, I think that's a great way both to acknowledge what you've observed, right, which is valid.

You saw an aspect of a person, a snapshot of them in time, while also withholding judgment and saying, you know what, I might discover there are things that I like about the person I disliked initially. And also, I might discover that my, like the person I immediately clicked with actually has some annoying vices. Here's a question parents ask me all the time. How can I help my kid take ownership of their routine? I love this question because owning a routine is such a good way for kids to build independence and confidence. It's why I'm excited to tell you about Yodo, the same thing. screen-free audio player for kids. In the mornings, your kid can wake up with Yodo's alarm clock.

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Terms apply, offer valid on select products only. I'm just thinking in my own house the other day. One of my kids was commenting about this friend she has. And she was saying, you know, it's interesting when it's just us. and we're walking in the hall, she's so nice. But when these, you know, most popular girls are around, she's sarcastic to me in a way that's kind of mean. We just had this exact conversation.

And you know what's interesting? What I found myself saying to that, because I think it goes back, Adam, to what you are saying, I want to be able to share what feels like the truths with someone. Sometimes I think we train kids out of noticing the truth because for so many years we just tell them something that feels like We're just trying to, you know, smooth things out. And I just found myself saying to her, you know, like kind of tell me more.

And then I was like, you know, sounds like you're right to notice that. Oh, that's such a great response. And then I just... Where were you three nights ago when we were talking this three? Saying something different. That's where I was. But that is kind of the... That's kind of all...

I don't even know what else to say. So yeah, what happened in your home. Well, what I find so clever about that is your right to notice that doesn't mean you're right to write that person off. You're right to dismiss that person. You're validating the observation, not a sweeping conclusion or a blanket judgment of the person. Right. So in our house, it was a conversation.

It was the exact same dynamic of basically there's a kid who's a great friend when it's one-on-one, but then in front of a group, hangs out with the popular kids and maybe kind of leaves our kid feeling excluded a little bit. Yeah. And I think we actually encouraged an open conversation about it and ended up doing it, like the parents with our kids and saying, you know, how have you felt let down by each other and what has hurt your friendship? And how do you feel about coming into this conversation? It was so interesting. Both kids, both of our kids said, I was nervous about having this conversation because I thought it would hurt our friendship. And then afterward they said, we're so glad we talked about it. and now we can do this on our own.

And we were missing, though, the part where going into the conversation, we could have said, that's a valid observation. You're right that your so-called friend is not being an equally good friend in all situations. Have you ever pointed that out? Are they even aware of it? Yeah. You have to give them a chance to change it in order to invite them to be a better friend. Yeah.

And I think they built the skills to do that now. Yeah. Well, that's a good prompt for me, too, just because it leads to, well, do you want you? you do want to do anything about that? Do you want to let her know? Right? Because again, withholding that information, even if my kid's right to notice it, we then make up a story in our head about what it might mean. And that story might not be accurate. Maybe our friend would be so glad to be, you know, kind of called in to like, oh, am I doing that? Like, I care about your friendship. And I don't really want to show up that way. Thanks for letting me know. Yeah. Or you know what?

You're right. I do that. And maybe I don't want to be friends with that group anymore. Or maybe we should form our own group together. So one of the things you're kind of circling around here, and I know you talk about it in your book and even broader way is hard moments can bring people closer. Yeah. Tell me about that. Well, I think, you know, before I sat down to write, I thought closeness enables healthy conflict. And now I know the arrow goes in both directions that healthy conflict can actually build closeness. I think if you do it thoughtfully, if you explain, like we were talking about earlier,

if you explain that you're trying to help the other person or you're trying to improve your bond, that signals this relationship matters to me, you matter to me. But we don't always have the language to do that. And so I've really learned a lot from the research on how to initiate a confrontation or even just constructive criticism. And I think one thing I found myself doing is saying, I care a lot about our relationship and I wanted to talk about something that I think is hurting it

or is not helping it. Yeah. Or another conversation I found enormously helpful is to say actually for me a defining quality of a great relationship is we help each other grow. And I don't feel like you tell me enough when you see things I can be better at.

And I want that to be part of the kind of bond we have. Yeah. And so if you ever see anything that I could improve, even if it's something as basic as you have food in your teeth. I want to know. I want to benefit from your observations. I trust your judgment. I value your feedback. And very often the person will either have something to share or they will say, you know what? Actually, I feel the same way. And that opens the door.

Yeah. You know, I always think about that as name your intention. Like when you really name your and you're naming your values, you're naming, my intention is for this to bring us closer. I know if I keep this to myself, I'll pull away. And I actually want us to stay closer. I want us to get closer. It also helps. I find whenever I start a conversation, that way, it reminds me the kind of tone I should have after, right? It kind of is like a promise to myself as well. Yeah. And doing it out loud really reinforces it because you're setting the tone for it. Totally. I think it's sometimes hard because I think it can feel self-centered to say, here's something that I think is hurting our relationship. And I think that over time, I've tried to, I've tried to frame it much more as a,

hey, I notice this is affecting the way that I approach our relationship. Yes. And that's probably affecting how I show up for you and how you react to me. And so I actually wanted to talk about this dynamic. I think it's so common for people, it's either you or it's me. Right. It's like, the two common attributions is, I mean, I think I've watched this so many times, people just beating themselves up saying, oh no, I mess that up. It's definitely me. And then, of course, enters the, no, no, no, it's not me. It's you. Yep. And that's almost, both of those stories are almost always lies in relationships. It is not you. It's not me. It's us. I love the research that psychologists have done on this on, they call them relational attributions. And it's a whole third category of

explaining when something doesn't go well interpersonally. Of saying, instead of attributing it to one person or the other. It is a, it's a social dynamic that's, that's unique from either of your traits. And sometimes even, it's a pattern of interaction that you got stuck in. It's a bad ritual. Yes. And I've, I don't know that I would use this language, but I have found myself trying to actively reset rituals with people and say, you know what? There's a person that I always go into attack to fend spirals with. Yep. And so I am initiating that when I give the feedback that feels like an attack. I need to come into that conversation and say, I just wanted to check in. Have I done anything that offended you or upset you? And if so, I want to not only make amends for that, I'm going to

change my behavior and show you that I mean it. The other dynamic that comes into play a lot on this when I think about families vibing and I think about what interferes with both couples and parent-child dynamics a lot. Yeah. Is the person who's more emotionally reactive ends up with the majority of the power. Hmm. So one person ends up walking on eggshells to not upset the other person. Why? Why?

I have a lot to say about that. But you're saying the perth, the kid who has the biggest reaction to not picking the music in the car somehow gets to pick music on every. The music. And that happens across the board, right? Mm-hmm. Although, and this is, as you know, one of my favorite topics, really nobody wins there because that kid becomes almost.

gets the message, the mirror back, like, everyone's all scared of you. And so actually what they take in is I'm a big overpowering, scary person. That identity isn't going to help me at times regulate or smooth things over. It's going to actually kind of calcify the dynamic, right? Oh, that's interesting. So what would you do instead? So first of all, 20% of the time, I'm going to be like, kid, pick the music because I just like don't want to deal with, you know, meltdowns every car ride. But I think not walking on eggshells around those kids is one of the most important things they need, not in a mean way. But hey, I want to tell you tomorrow, your sister's choosing the music. And let me just be clear. I know it's not going to be fun for you. You might complain the whole time.

As a family, you might listen to no music because it's going to be a little bit of music and a lot of your protest. But your mom and I have ready for that. Your kids are older, but especially when they're younger. In fact, I'm going to sit in the back seat with you and stop you from taking your seatbelt off. I'm already ready. It's not going to be my most car ride, but that's what's going to happen because this family needs to have multiple kids learn how to pick music. And every kid in this family also needs to learn how to be in a car or when their favorite music isn't playing. Yes. And I love you enough to set you up for that. That's exactly what's missing often in these interactions. Right. And so in a way, we're giving the power back to the parents. And in a way, you're giving the power

back to the kid in the future to not be someone who can only feel okay being them in like the narrowest range of the world going their way. That's real power. This is why we, need to do more podcasts together. There we go. Me coming on your podcast is my Trojan horse for saying, I want to become a better parent and a better partner, and you're going to teach me how. Always fun. Okay, one more thing about the hard things, because as you know, then about me, I'm kind of obsessed with thinking about how to help kids feel more capable doing hard things. But what I got from your book that I hadn't thought about is that hard things don't just build a kid. hard things actually build kids relationships.

Like when a kid says, I don't want to try out for that basketball team. I don't know anyone. One of the things I first go to is, wait, it's going to be such a good thing for a kid to watch themselves try out. Make it or not, it's just like a good experience. But I think you're saying, too, maybe some of the best friendships that kids going to have

are going to be with those kids they eventually meet on the basketball team because they're on this hard team together that friendships, connections, vibes get built through putting yourself in situations that are challenging. So tell me more about that. I didn't think about it that way. And I think that's such an interesting characterization of it. I think people think it's shared suffering that matters. It's not.

What the research tells us is it's not adversity that brings us closer. It's intensity. Having an emotional experience where our hearts are racing and they are beating together is what bonds us together. And so if you shield your kid from hard things, they're never going to have those emotionally intense situations where they bond with other kids. And I mean, I think some of the examples are really clear. So we know that physical endurance or exertion challenges are really good in the sense that sweating together is a form of social grease. And that, you know, if kids have to push themselves through a run or a bike ride, then, you know, and they go through that together, it will generally bring them closer because we, conquered that challenge together, something that I think most sports coaches know intuitively.

Yeah. I think that we don't think about the range of ways that we could create emotional intensity. So I love this experiment that was done recently where people go to a haunted house together and afterward they feel closer, but only if they've debriefed together. So it's not just having the jump scare. It's, whoa, that happened to us, right? That leads us to say, wow, that is a unique moment for our dynamic. And I think, so I think you're right.

I think that as parents, if we encourage our kids to try hard things, to put themselves in uncomfortable situations, to challenge themselves. And they're doing that with other kids. There is more opportunity for bonding because you end up being a little bit vulnerable together. Yeah. And that allows you to feel like, wow, those people understand what I went through. I trust them.

And we've got something. Yeah, you know, it also, as just kind of consulted by parents who were struggling, because their kid doesn't really like to do sports, but wants a lot of private lessons. Okay. And one of the things this book reframe for me is I think about it as kind of this hyper optimization we're doing for kids that again, you can see by my hands,

in the name of making kids really good at things, you're really narrowing the range of experiences that felt comfortable. And the range of relationships. But I'm thinking about, I hadn't really thought about, oh, this is a kid who's true. is pretty good at hockey and lacrosse, all these things. But look at the kids he'd be meeting in those classes.

Probably kids with so many interesting, you know, areas of interest and overlap. And those are kids that could be forget the class, but even outside of class, so many friendship opportunities missed. I think that's a huge thing. I mean, if you, if you were the parent who's having your kids do private tennis lessons instead of group lessons, you are sacrificing social skills building. You are also missing out then on a group of peers. who are going to challenge them and help them develop their skills.

You know, it's funny if you go back to, you know, I start high school and my friend group has dropped me and I've got these two friends left. My diving coach told me recently that he said, you showed up in high school and you only had one friend. And I said, actually, you didn't know the other. There were two. Hold on a second. A third friendship was forming at that time, but I didn't know it.

It was somebody in middle school. I'd been randomly assigned a room with on a school trip. And then we were to class together in ninth grade and that kind of brought us together. But I had very few friends. And Eric, my coach was laughing. He said, you were not well liked. You were not socially skilled at all. You annoyed everybody.

You argued with every single thing that you disagreed with me on. And I knew a little bit more about diving than you did. And he said, by the time you graduated, I watched you completely transform social skills. wise, he said I was like a caterpillar that became a butterfly. And I said, well, first of all, thank you. Thank you for telling me I had basically no friends now. But I said, I don't, I don't exactly know what happened. And he said, well, you spent most of practice waiting in line to dive. And you had to talk to the other people on the team. And you weren't, you didn't hit it off with all of them. And you were stuck with them and you had to figure it out. And Becky, I never thought of this.

I spent six years of my life obsessed with springboard diving. And I thought about all of the hard things I did to overcome my fear of heights and of getting lost in midair and just boosting my pain tolerance to smack on my back at 30 miles an hour and have bruises for six weeks. That was what was hard about diving in my head. I had that conversation with Eric and I realized actually one of the biggest challenges of diving was figuring out how to get along with people I didn't like. and how to take somebody who is definitely not a companion, not a pal,

and make them at least a partial ally. And I think those are the, it's not just sports, right? Is any kind of goal-oriented activity that we encourage our kids to do, if we don't force them to collaborate with peers that they don't like, we are depriving them of skills that they need in their adulthood. Well, I think that's exactly it. For most of us who are doing any form of youth sports, the thing that's going to stay with us far longer than any of the skills for that sport

are the relationships we built and the skills we built getting along with other people. And that clearly was the most lifelong skill you got from all those years. Top thing you want people to take away from your latest book. What would that be? Oh, this is like choosing a favorite child, Becky. You can do it. You can do hard things. Can I?

Yeah. Not the child, the takeaway from the book. I don't need the answer to that question. Nope. Okay. So let's see. My biggest takeaway, I think every interaction. is an expanding set of possibilities

to get to know people on different levels and to bond in different ways. And I think too often we get stuck in one lane and then we just drive in it. So you're the class clown or you're good at cracking jokes and you approach everyone as a potential pal. And not everybody is going to be your pal.

And you need to broaden your repertoire and say, okay, let me find out what people's challenges are and try to help them and be a good ally. Let me show a little bit of vulnerability and talk about something I'm struggling with or ask them about something they're regretting right now and let me try to elicit some companionship.

I think that we have a go-to way of connecting with other people. It may not match what theirs is. And if we can recognize that range of possibilities, we have a better chance at not missing out on great interactions and meaningful connections. I love that. And I think that's such a direct kind of, there's such a direct application to parents listening

just to make one comment about a type of relationship your kid has that you've never thought to explicitly value. Wow, it's so amazing you have a friend to laugh with. You know, they never had a play date with them. That's okay. It's so awesome that you know exactly who you want to partner with when you have science experiments. And then just ended at that that we're kind of planting the seeds for our kids to value that constellation. Ah, that's such a yes, yes, yes, yes. I agree.

And I don't care whether people use the terms, Ella. pals and companions for me, they're convenient shorthand. But I don't think it's hard to have a conversation with kids about, look, you have friends that you can really count on. You have friends that you can laugh with. You have friends that are good at solving problems. And those are different kinds of relationships. And some people will be multiple and some people will be just one.

And that's okay. You need all of them in your life. Okay, here's what I want to end with today. They're actually the two things that keep pinging around in my brain. And one is a takeaway for us as adults. And the other one is a takeaway in terms of something very concrete you could say to your kid today that I know I'm going to say. First, for us adults. I love this idea that we can look at getting to know someone as completing a puzzle.

Now, I don't know if we ever complete it. But if you think about it that way, the first experience you have with someone, yeah, it's a few puzzle pieces. And I think what can often happen is we learn something new. I have like a brand new puzzle piece. We're like, whoa, I don't know you react that way in that situation. situation, and we could look at that new piece of information as a way of throwing out all the others. Oh, forget it. I'm never going to talk to that person again. Now, maybe that's warranted. But it's a different framework to say, huh, this puzzle is not going to end up the way I thought.

All right. Let's add that piece in, huh? What might be next? And it just gives us permission to kind of get to know someone. Instead of being so attached to the version of who they are that may be the first few pieces indicated, but time might shift. All right, here's the concrete thing with our kid. I really love this idea of helping my kid at a young age value a whole constellation of relationships. And I think if you're like me, it's just easy to get caught in best friend mode. Who's your best friend? Who do you play with? Who do you hang out with on this day? It's just a lot of pressure. Plus, it might set my kid up to be older. I'm picturing my kid in their 20s and they move somewhere new. What an amazing adventure to move to a new city. They're not going to have a

best friend for a while. And if that's the only thing they've been taught to value, they might feel lonely. But if they've been taught to value relationships that are many different categories, oh, that feels, I don't know, it's easier to be successful. So something I'm going to say to my kid this week when it's natural, something like, oh, you found someone you really loved doing that English project with. How cool. Wait, you have a math partner there. Tell me. what do you like about doing math with that person? Oh, the two of you are both in this club together. Oh, but you haven't really played at recess?

Cool, tell me more about that. To focus less on best friend and more on showing your kid that you actually value this idea of a constellation because they're going to take that in and it's going to be so useful for them for the rest of their life. All right, let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground. Place the hand on your heart.

And let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon.