Good Inside with Dr. Becky - The Overlap Between ADHD, Neurodivergence, and Deeply Feeling Kids

Episode Date: November 14, 2023

Parenting Deeply Feeling Kids and kids with ADHD can be challenging. These kids really do have more intense escalations and reactions. But there is a path forward where we can help our kids build the skills for regulating their emotions, tolerate frustration, learn to focus, and learn to manage sensory sensitivities. Dr. Becky is joined by clinical psychologist, Alex Reed, to discuss the overlap between ADHD, neurodivergence, and Deeply Feeling Kids.Check out the DFK Program: https://bit.ly/46ij3uuFollow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinsideSign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletterOrder Dr. Becky's book, Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, at goodinside.com/book or wherever you order your books.For a full transcript of the episode, go to goodinside.com/podcastTo listen to Dr. Becky's TED Talk on repair visit https://www.ted.com/talks/becky_kennedy_the_single_most_important_parenting_strategyToday’s episode is brought to you by Ritual: Parents are busy. And even though we know we should prioritize ourselves, sometimes we’re the last thing on our list. Dr. Becky loves anything that makes caring for her family – and herself – easier… including a multivitamin she can trust. Enter Ritual and their “Essential For Women” multivitamin. It fills your nutrient gap with 9 key nutrients — like vitamin D and omega-3s — in just two daily pills. And Ritual delivers to your doorstep every month. It’s clinically backed and has clean, high quality ingredients. Ritual is transparent – what’s on the label is what’s in it. And you know where everything came from. You can get started with 40% off your first month. Just visit Ritual.com/GoodInside and your 40% discount will automatically be applied to your order. Today’s episode is brought to you by KiwiCo: We’re approaching the holidays and gift-giving is one more thing on parents’ overwhelming holiday to-do list. But it's time to let go of some of your tasks and make room for fun. And KiwiCo can help - because it is the gift that truly keeps on giving. Why? KiwiCo will send your kid a fun project every month - perfect for cold weekend days when you’re not sure how to pass the time! Plus, KiwiCo crates are designed to build life-long skills through fun hands-on projects - so as your kid is creating, they’re also building resilience, confidence, and self-trust. Unwrap hands-on fun with KiwiCo. Get your first month FREE on ANY crate line at kiwico.com/drbecky.

I'm Dr. Becky and this is Good Inside. I am super excited about this episode. In fact, I just recorded it days ago after getting so many of the same questions from parents on Instagram. So I know this is an important topic that's on so many people's minds and here is what we're going to focus on. The overlap between ADHD and neurodivergence and my concept of deeply-feeling kids. So here is the origin story.

It's a term and really an approach I originated after realizing that there is a certain group of kids who actually escalate with typical parenting strategies. And I wanted to understand these kids and make sure parents had a different approach for these kids. Today I'm joined by Dr. Alex Reed. She's a clinical psychologist

and she specializes in neurodivergence so I had to call her in for this discussion. I am so eager to jump in, so let's do it. [♪ Music playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, including a multivitamin I can trust. Enter Ritual. They're essential for women vitamin? Amazing! I'm filling my nutrient gap with 9 key nutrients, like vitamin D and omega-3s, and just 2 daily pills. And Ritual delivers to my doorstep every month. So easy!

I also trust it. Not just because it's clinically backed, but because it has clean, high-quality ingredients. Ritual is transparent. What's on the label is what's in it. Not just because it's clinically backed, but because it has clean, high-quality ingredients. Ritual is transparent. What's on the label is what's in it. And you know where everything came from. We deserve this. You deserve this. And you can get started with 40% of your first month. Just visit ritual.com slash good inside and your 40% discount will automatically be applied to your order. Even that part is easy. I want to make sure you know about my upcoming live, deeply-feeling kid workshop. It is Wednesday, November 15, 11 a.m. Eastern, and if you can't make that time, no worries,

it is also available async. I have gotten so many questions from parents who ask, oh, the deeply-feeling kid description, and course seems perfect for my kid, but my kid is neurodivergent, my kid is ADHD. Is it still for me? I can say with certainty. Yes, there is so much overlap between kids with ADHD and kids who are DFKs.

They both are oriented towards sensory stimulation. They shut down when they need help and typical parenting strategies content to escalate things. I know with my deeply feeling kid workshop, you're going to get an approach that makes you say, oh my goodness, this is my kid, and then you're gonna get a set of strategies that actually work. I can't wait to see you there. Hi, Alex. So good to see you. Hey, Becky. I'm so excited to be here today. So let's start. Just introduce yourself, tell everyone who you are, the types of things you find interesting to think about and work on. And then we'll go from there. That sounds good. Well, I'm Alex, three, I'm a clinical psychologist, and I'm a mom of two. I work mainly with children with neurodevelopmental disorders, from infancy through young adulthood. I am also a mentor and a room leader in the good inside community in the neurodivergent

kids room that we created to help support families who fall into this group. So these are the kinds of questions I love to think about so much that I volunteer on my free time to think about these questions more in depth. And I think one of the things you're so good at is giving people clarity, relief, hope, and validation. Like, okay, yeah, there's stuff going on with my kid that I'm not making up.

Like that doesn't seem the same as some other kids. And like there's a path forward where I can help my child also build the skills for regulating their emotions, tolerating frustration, learning to focus, learning to manage sensory sensitivities. Those might be different approaches. And like, there is a pathway for these kids too. So first of all, neurodevelopmental disorders, neurodevelopment, neurodiversity, neurodivergence. And by the way, I just have to say ADHD because

I know that's on people's minds as they listen. So maybe we'll put that to the side. But can you just give everyone even me too? Like your sense of like, what are these terms mean? Sure. Well, let's define neurodivergent. So I've come across some slightly varying degrees of this definition, but I approach this as a profile that diverges in behavior significantly across the norm. So or from the norm.

So most figures that I've seen out there hover around like 15% of the population falling under the umbrella, which means 85% or so percent of folks are what we would call typically functioning, which means their development overall follows a pretty predictable path. But for the remaining 15% or so, their idiosyncrasies and development, which qualify for these mental health diagnoses

that we've identified like autism, ADHD, learning disabilities, intellectual disabilities, arguably anxiety and mood disorders. So there's a lot here to unpack. There's a broad history of why we've come to this point, why neurodiversity is important, the role of neurodiversity and giving people voices who are otherwise marginalized.

So there's a lot of history we could dig into. And so for parents listening, and they're thinking, someone said my kid is neurodivergent or they mentioned that and it seemed to resonate, what might they be seeing in their young kid? to resonate what might they be seeing in their young kid that might make them think, yeah, they might be, you know, a neurodivergent child. So it's a good question. When we talk about ADHD, for example, you need to qualify for a host of symptoms to meet criteria. And once you do, then we can understand that there are some associated features with diagnoses like that as well that overlap with a lot of the things that you talk about that will get into in a little bit, I'm sure.

So every mental health diagnosing has a list of symptoms that you need to qualify for in order to meet criteria. And when you go to an evaluation with your development pediatrician or psychologist like me, they can help kind of elucidate what is clinically significant and what is just sort of a, you know, on the upper end of subclinical, for example. And with things like ADHD, associated features include things like lower frustration tolerance, irritability, mood liability, and all of those things that are very consistent with what we see in other groups as well, like DFK groups that we're going to get into. Okay, frustration tolerance. Someone says, low frustration tolerance. How would you describe

to someone what that is and what that could look like, you know, in life? Yeah, I think that look, I can get into why low frustration tolerance occurs later, I think as well, I think it's important to understand the background, but it can manifest in kind of explosive behaviors. We can see kids raging, throwing, biting, hitting, screaming, kicking in response to a demand being placed or not getting their way or being asked to transition, host a different way is. And just to add on to that, right? Because frustration, first of all,

is just like one of the most common feelings we have. I think even adults, right? Definitely kids. I mean, kids' whole lives is like learning things, doing things that are new, doing things that are hard, frankly, doing things that don't wanna do, but they kind of have to, because their parents ask them, right?

So there's so much inherent frustration from I'm trying to put on my shirt for the first time by myself, and I just can't get my head through the hole to my parent asked me to come to breakfast and can't they see I'm having fun building blocks to I don't know, I'm at a birthday party and I don't really know anyone. I do know everyone, but I'm not comfortable or I'm building a tower or I'm doing a puzzle. And I have that fourth piece and I just can't figure out yet where it goes. Like I feel like all of those moments,

along with so many others, I would say frustration is part of the equation. And then I wanna just combine it with the word tolerance because I do think most of us being included is tolerance. Like, you know, most of us don't love tolerating our frustration. Like we're like, isn't it frustration avoidance or is there frustration solving or frustration no more? But I think Alex, you and I agree, like those actually don't exist in the world. And actually one of the things we want to help our kids build is this term, which is really a skill, frustration, tolerance, because when you can tolerate frustration,

you're putting that shirt on your head, and you might be able to, in some version, say to yourself, yeah, this is hard, and I can kind of take a breath and keep going, or when your parent says you have to come to the table and you don't want to, instead of maybe as an older kid saying, I hate you, you might even say, mom, I need a minute. I'm still playing, which actually is a way of regulating

that frustration and expressing it in a kind of more prosocial way. Or when you're doing that puzzle if you can tolerate frustration, you're able to keep yourself calm in the moment, maybe you're even able to let go of that fourth piece and realize maybe this piece isn't necessary right now. I can shift gears to another piece. Right, all because the frustration

didn't take over your body and explode out like a volcano. And I'm sure there's lots of listeners who are like, yeah, I think that basically happens to my kid all the time, right? Of course, but instead of that, the frustration was able to be tolerated inside the body. And then that child or the adult could kind of continue feeling capable with the task.

And for what it's worth, I think that's a perfect definition. And I also, I can feel parents and are shame when we talk about these things. And I kind of want to talk about one thing with neurodivergence that is like a perfect two things are true if there ever was one, which is that neurodivergence assumes like divergence from the norm, but it's also quite consistent across populations

and over time. And so it suggests that neurodivergence, while divergent, is also likely like a quote unquote normal variation. So it's evolutionarily beneficial to have a percentage of the population with these traits, but our job is to help support these kids thrive in the environment that we have created or to change the environment

when we can. So at the same time that there's nothing wrong with these and they're in fact normal patterns of variation, they can also in the society that we've created come with symptoms that are very, very hard to live with and that are disruptive at best and completely depleting at worst. Because our lives, a lot of parents involve a lot of transitions, a lot of demands, right? And this is actually really interesting.

So I have a child who I started this idea, I'm like, she's a deeply-feeling child, that's always just been the term that made sense to me. And transitions were hard, and frustration tolerance, the beginning, you know, stages was, was lower for sure. And I used to kind of joke. I used to be like, I feel like she would do really well. Like, living on a farm.

And what I meant by that, besides the fact that she's obsessed with animals and is like, yes, I would much rather live in a farm, is like, at least my idea of like maybe a slower pace of life and that might not be true. I actually bet there's people listening to live in a where like my life has a million transitions. I'm sure that's true. But I guess my fantasy is a life where there's fewer transitions, not as much like, oh, after school, then I also go to after school activities. And my parents also are running between home and work and socializing and like there's so many things, right? Because the ideal environment for her isn't in a way

what we are living in. It's not the transition she has to make and the way she has to manage that, it looks very different than my other kids definitely does. So for many, these symptoms become disabilities in an ableist or inaccessible world, which otherwise at the farm in this ideal world would not be necessarily disabilities. On the other hand, a lot of these things are objectively hard to deal with, whether you are on a farm

or a New York City. And so these tools that, you know, we're going to talk about really help manage, because we can't recreate the entire, we can certainly advocate for changes here and there wherever we can. And that's certainly what I hope to do in my career. But we can't always pave a perfect pathway for our kids. And so instilling them with the skills and ourselves with the skills is probably our best bet right now. I love that pragmatic approach. And I also think, look, helping our kids, whether they're neurotypical or neurodivergent, feel capable, so important in childhood. And the truth is, none of us end up feeling capable when 100 out of 100 times people

approach us in a way of, let me change everything in the outside world so you can manage. And some ways what we internalize is, oh, like I guess everyone kind of thinks some relatively fragile or incapable. Now, we don't want to go to the opposite. This is not my way of saying, wait, my kid should get no accommodations. Of course, there should be accommodations, right?

We're trying more and more to live in like a gray world and a two things are true world. But I think that dance for parents I've seen in my private practice, who has a kid who has ADHD, for example, the dance between what does this kid need and what are kind of accommodations in the environment that really support their growth, 100% and how can I understand that my child may just kind of take a longer time or have a different pathway

to learning skills that will help them in environments that aren't shifted? We need to hold both that once. Absolutely. I've sort of made it my mission to fill this gray space to give a little bit of background. I sort of fell into the work that I do from teaching at a school in New York City for kids with autism. And at the time I was working on a social psychology PhD, so a research-based program. Not thinking that autism or anything related to that would be the direction of my career, but at that school, they used a framework called DIR Floor Time, which at the time I just sort of took for granted as the default way that we engage there putically with kids with autism. But it wasn't until later that I took on another kind of role

as an ABA therapist, which is a kind of a strictly behavioral approach that I realized just how juxtaposed those two camps were. And I've sort of made in my mission, like I said, ever since to fill that gray space. So pulling from the research and listening to advocates, which I think we always need to do more of, and listening to my gut, which felt very uncomfortable with some of the interventions that were offered out there.

And so this is like a new framework, a new approach that's pulling from research on attachment and development and relational methods to target some of those things that you were just talking about. Okay, the next thing I want to jump into is ADHD, right? So, I think for some parents listening, they might be thinking, oh, I don't know, ADHD was connected to neurodivergence. And I think a question I get from a ton of parents, okay? And actually what's burned this, you know, conversation between me and you was this influx I was getting of questions from parents who are saying, every time you describe a deeply feeling kid,

I think about my kid. I'm like, oh my goodness, is Dr. Becky watching my kid? Like, does she know my kid? This sounds exactly like my kid. I thought I had the only one. And yet, you don't say ADHD for those descriptions. You say deeply feeling kid, but I know my kid is ADHD or I suspect it.

How do those things connect and can my kid with ADHD still be helped by an approach that isn't explicitly for a kid with ADHD? So let's jump into that a little bit. I love this. Okay, so I think we need to define a few terms. So we've seen so much in this topic,

so interest in this topic of deeply feeling kids, right? And parents are getting confused about what this means in the context of neurodevelopmental disorders. So how I see it, and of course, feel free to correct me, is that DFK is your conceptualization of what we call a subclinical child who struggles with big emotions and does not meet criteria for an explicit DSM category,

maybe yet. And many kids with empty diagnoses would also benefit from the interventions, since a lot of them have similar traits. I want to break that down a little bit more though. So with ADHD in particular, there are three different subtypes, there are lots of different criteria that we need to meet. You go to a psychologist or your pediatrician, you talk about it further if you have concerns. But what does it look like? So the reason that we see the symptoms associated with ADHD, which can be hyperactivity and impulsivity or inattention, kind of the kids who zone out, all this is because the part of the brain that controls the ability to plan, to organize, to override impulses is impaired, but that same part of the brain is also in control of

emotion regulation. So the prefrontal cortex is sort of famous for not coming online until our mid-20s. I feel like a lot of us have heard about that, but the truth is with a lot of these conditions, the prefrontal cortex is significantly impaired above and beyond that. But there's hope. So we know that the interventions that we can implement to help develop the skills that are lagging as a result of this perfect storm exist. They're out there.

I think it is here that the DFK overlap is relevant, because in my understanding of this category, the low frustration tolerance that we talked about, the irritability, the mood ups and downs are core features of both DFKs and other diagnoses as well. And the interventions that help with these kids who don't meet criteria for anything, but still have those symptoms,

would also help the kids who definitely do have diagnoses. Okay, I just wanna slow down and break that down because there's so many different things we're talking about that really, really matter. So number one is the term subclinical just to explain that for everyone. That's a way of saying a kid's behavior or their symptoms or their struggles

do not meet criteria for certain DSM diagnosis. For example, ADHD is a DSM diagnosis. Just so everyone knows, that doesn't mean you're making things up. Like, you know, if you know your kid is struggling, they're struggling, that's real, whether it's, quote, subclinical or clinical. Okay, the other thing I want to say that Alex just said, I just kind of want to mirror it back, is so many of the core features with kind of ADHD

are really the exact same features that kids who at least I describe as deeply feeling kids have. Now, to be clear, that doesn't mean all DFKs have ADHD, that doesn't mean all deeply feeling kids, you know, don't have ADHD. It just means there all deeply feeling kids, you know, don't have ADHD. It just means there's deeply feeling kids and if the way that description resonates,

make sense to you, your kid could have ADHD or not have ADHD and that approach could still be helpful because the underlying struggles, hard time regulating emotions, I think both also Alex right, like more easily overwhelmed by sensory sensitivities, tendency to shut down in those states and push people away, low frustration tolerance,

ADHD or not. Anything that helps with those core struggles are going to help kids who have those core struggles. I completely agree. And I think it's important to differentiate that the low frustration tolerance, irritability, all that are associated features, right? They're like part of, they're like side dishes to the diagnoses, but they do not make up the diagnosis of ADHD. I ADHD have a lot of other sort of bullet points that we need to tackle before we get to frustration tolerance, difficulty with frustration tolerance or mood liability are not in and of themselves enough to meet criteria, right?

So you can have all those things, but you still need a host of other symptoms in order to meet criteria for a diagnosis in the DSM, which is, I don't think we clarified, but the manual that we use to diagnose all of these things. So we're approaching the holidays, and if you're like me, you're soon going to be thinking, what do I get my kids? And what do I tell other family members to get them? Gift giving is one more thing

on parents overwhelming holiday to do list. Well, I have a little reframe here. I wanna give you permission to let go of some of your tasks and make room for fun. This can actually be a really hard part of parenting, but every single time I push myself to lead with lightness and join my kids in play, something good happens. And KiwiCo can help with this too,

because it's truly the gift that keeps on giving. Why? Kiwi Coe will send your kid a fun project every month, perfect for cold weekend days when you're not sure how to pass the time. Plus, Kiwi Coe crates are designed to build lifelong skills through fun hands-on projects, so as your kid is creating, they're also building resilience, confidence, and self-trust. Unwrap hands-on fun with KiwiCo. Get your first month free on any crate line at KiwiCo.com slash Dr. Becky.

That's your first month free at kiwico.com slash drbcky. D-R-B-E-C-K-Y. Give it all your experience. I hear a lot from parents. I've tried so many things for my kid. And because my kid is neurodivergent, you know, because my kid is ADHD, like these other parenting approaches or strategies or courses or one-on-one sessions, whatever they are, books, like they simply haven't helped. So I'd love to hear your experience and kind of validate that tendency, but then also help parents understand like why might that not have been a good fit how to think about going forward? Because obviously these kids, like they're struggling,

they really need, they need our help and then we need help getting the help so they can get that. 100% follow. So are these interventions or any interventions going to cure autism or ADHD? They are not. Is that even the goal? For some parents of, or NDK folks themselves, it would be unfathomable,

separating the diagnosis from the self is neither a possibility nor a desire. For other parents, a diagnosis is devastating because of the severity of the behavior or the stigma or the combination. And these are all valid experiences. But for all these kids, the interventions, the ones that we have here, good inside and other ones as well, are going to help add tools to your toolkit in moments of dysregulation, right? So it's not always possible to say which particular intervention in the library is going to be the right fit for your child. It will take some child and air and that space, the learning space, if

you will, is a safe place to be and grow for you and them. But it's also extremely frustrating and confidence, busting and exhausting and all that is also valid. Yeah. And to me, one of the ways I want to tie this all together is so, so many of my ideas about deeply feeling kids, they came from my own experience then combined with all my, you know, clinical knowledge and experience too. So for years, I was seeing people in my private practice who were saying to me, Becky, like, I am doing everything. You told me to do like, I swear, I'm doing it just the way you said it.

But my kid is not reacting in a way that lets me believe that this is at all helpful, right? And I think it's true, sometimes our kid's immediate reactions isn't the best barometer for the impact, right? But also, sometimes we watch our kid escalate and we just know as a parent, we're like, wow, like, my intention did not at all match the impact.

And so I had one kid at this time. And so I'd hear this from parents and I'd often, like, what I'd say back to them was, okay, totally get it. Like, there's so many other things we could try. Like, you know, no one's size fits all. But Alex, honestly, in the back of my head, I was kind of like, yeah, I don't know if you're doing it the way I'm get it. Like, there's so many other things we could try. Like, you know, no one's size fits all. But Alex, honestly, in the back of my head,

I was kind of like, yeah, I don't know if you're doing it the way I'm doing it. Like, if you just, you know, did it a little better, maybe that wouldn't happen. So I was skeptical. And then I had my second child. That was like, the way probably we all are when we have our second child, we're like, wow, okay.

That's different. And I watched myself. I heard myself, I witnessed myself saying the thing to that child in the same way I said it to my other child. Like I know, and I was like, oh my goodness, right? This is a completely different reaction. This is completely escalating her. I feel like offering her support. Like I am here basically calm saying I'm here to help you.

And she was basically like get out of my face and, you know, escalated from there. And I think this gave me such an understanding that there are these group of kids. And this is, I don't know if I've ever said this before. I feel like they need the same things other kids need. They still need our help. Like they still need skills to manage emotions. They do over time need to learn how to tolerate frustration or take in help from others. Of course, we that's a human needs and yet the methods of how they can take that in just really did appear before my eyes

to be completely at odds with what other kids could take in. The way I think about this difference can kind of be described as the difference between a front door strategy and a side door strategy. I'm gonna give an example and then go through the difference to kind of bring these terms to life. So let's say my daughter and son are home, and my son has a play date with his friend.

They're all playing together, and then at some point my son tells my daughter, you know, I'd really want some time alone with my friend. My daughter has a meltdown, she has a really, really hard time, we sit through it, and then maybe later that evening, I'm thinking, I just kind of want to bring this up again. I want to process with her.

This is a time we can actually build regulation skills. So moments like that don't happen again. Okay. Here would be a front door strategy. Hey, you know, I'm thinking about earlier when your brother said you couldn't play with him and his friend. Oh, that's so hard. It felt so disappointing.

Okay. I'm going to pause there. If I set those words to two of my kids, they would kind of look at me and take it in. They'd feel understood, they'd kind of give me this, like, oh yeah, feeling. And then that would be my entrance in. That's my door in with them.

And then I'd probably work with them on building a coping skill for the next time. If I said those words to a deeply feeling kid. And I've learned, saying that same front door words to a neuro-divergent kid or to a kid with ADHD might lead to the same thing as with my deeply feeling kid. You would probably hear, why are you talking? Get out of my room. I hate you. Stop talking about feelings. Maybe even a kid putting their hand over their ears as a way of saying, I can't take this in. This is too much. So what do we do? Well, for these kids, we can't leave them kind of alone in their house. They won't develop the skills they need to change, but we can't go in the front door. So here's a side door approach. Hey, you know what I'm thinking about? I'm thinking

about when I was four. Oh, and my brother had a play date. And no, no, I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about when I was four. And my brother had a play date. And he said, I couldn't play with him. Do you think I was calm? I was not. Oh, that was so hard. Anyway, sorry.

What did you want for a snack? Okay, that's a side door strategy. I'm side stepping. My kids shame their tendency toward overstimulation, their tendency to feel alone and like a bad kid. I'm going around those. And now I am kind of connecting. I'm opening the door to connecting with my kid by going in the side door. And now I can do the same thing with my deeply feeling kid or my kid with ADHD, which is continued to build on that connection and build the coping skill they would need for the next time.

Tell me if that resonates. I, everything I agree with, hands down, and I think a lot of these kids do need a different strategy. I just think that one of the strategies that common psychology practice tends to ignore, is focusing on ourselves, grounding ourselves, being sturdy, approaching with warmth and firmness, channeling the mantras of this not being an emergency, and all of those things are sort of precursors to showing up in the space ready to support

the child in front of us. I think that that's like a step that we just jump over when we go to time out or when we punish or when we reward, we just kind of forget the impact that parents have. And that's kind of one of the core features that good inside too is figuring out where you are in your emotional space too. I'm so glad you highlighted that. It's so true, right? I mean, because honestly, and here's where maybe there's like a double whammy where kids, like a deeply feeling kids, maybe kids are neurodrovergent too, they do escalate more often.

And it's more intense. And you are thinking, oh, my kid is the one again at the party having this thing. And so, I guess, and it's just a hard truth, but I know you and I are similar and just, there's a hard truth. You just got you and I are similar and just there's a hard truth. It's just got to name it. Can't avoid it. I almost don't want to say it, which is interesting for me, but okay, I'm going to say it.

I think the hard truth is that if you have a kid who is a deeply feeling kid, a kid with ADHD, the work we do to manage our own emotions is like extra important. And I just wanna join all the parents here who are saying, like, what, like, is that really what you're telling me? I remember working with a family of a kid who had ADHD and we're talking about the deeply feeling kid approach and kind of the way they combined it to be so helpful. And I remember the dad just coming in and saying,

Becky, one time can I tell you about my kid's behavior and you just go like, your kid is awful. Like that is, that your kid is awful. Like you were perfect and you just have an awful kid. There's nothing we can do about it. You know, we kind of laughed and I think he knew me well enough to know that I wasn't saying like, it's your fault. It's never your fault.

It's never your fault that your kid is the way that they are. It is never your fault. And we are the way that they are. It is never your fault. And we are the adults in the room. And it's not our fault. I always think that it is, it is like our responsibility, which is different than our fault. Say, okay, I'm the leader here, right? And I wouldn't expect, you know, I don't know a first year associate at a corporation to change company culture. I would probably expect the CEO to do that. Or I wouldn't know, a first year associate at a corporation to change company culture. I would probably expect the CEO to do that or I wouldn't expect the passengers on the

plane to change the feeling of the flight. That's on the pilot, right? And where are those pilots? And as much as it feels like it can be a lot to think, okay, I'm going to work on my own regulation. And I do think, Alex, we've seen this together for so many parents. Like, the power of that and the beauty of that, that benefits you in every area of your life. So maybe the thing with

your kid is the thing that makes you say, okay, I am going to double down on like how I'm really investing in myself and learning to manage myself. And maybe I'm starting that because I want to help my kid, but actually I'm going to see that the benefit is so much greater to me than even as to my kid, which is saying a lot because it's going to really benefit your kid. But learning how to manage your own emotions and your triggers and feel just sturdy or in your life is like, I really find it like an addicting feeling. I'm like, oh, it's the best feeling. It really is.

100%. I just think I think you said this at some point, maybe. There's so many interventions out there, even without intending to outwardly attempt to get rid of the feeling, do that. And even if they don't really mean to. And with emotion regulation in particular, we can, with ourselves and our kids, we can kind of go one or two ways.

We can reapprise the situation, which is, you know, a mantra or what, acknowledging the feeling, or we can suppress it. And I think you can imagine which one of the two is linked with poor outcomes. And arguably has been driving some of the exceptionally high numbers we've seen from mental health diagnoses with teens, which was deemed a crisis by the surgeon general. So I think it's really, really pivotal to start here instead of jumping five steps ahead to the behavior itself. But that is important too.

And you know what's so interesting and it makes me think about the feedback I often get from parents who will watch the deeply-filling course. I'll say within the first 10 minutes, I feel better. I think we underestimate how much of our struggles with our kids just actually comes from not deeply understanding what's really going on for them.

Right? And I think when you start to get that understanding, it's like in a moment, it's clarity, and then what ends up happening is you immediately have different glasses on. And so you're looking around the world and definitely your home. And you even start to see your kid

and everything looks different. It doesn't look rosy, don't get me wrong. It's not like in the first dimension. Oh my goodness, everything is perfect. Perfect will never happen. Your kid is still gonna have some of their stuff. But we think our biggest problem is our kid's behavior. Our biggest struggle is actually that we don't fully understand them and we don't have clarity

on what's going on and what our role is. And when you get that, it's almost unbelievable how much feels different before anything as quote changed. Okay, 100% with you. And talking to you, I'm realizing that it's not to the diagnostic label itself, but it's the clarity. But if I can spend like a minute talking about this, I think it's important. So I think diagnostic labels are important for just a couple of reasons. First, it allows us to conduct research on things like the prevalence, the prognosis, you know, making sure we're all on the same page, and also like interventions. What works for what diagnosis? And for most people in this country, access to intervention is often at the mercy of insurance

companies. And insurance companies will only cover interventions for diagnoses that have been validated by research and confirmed by a clinician and all of that. But the other thing that I want to point out is that I think that a diagnosis can really be community building for not just the people with the label, but everybody around them, their village. And this is directly related to what you just said. I think the most common statement at the end of my evaluation with parents is, well, that explains so much second to thank you.

Yes. So kids grow to have an understanding that their brains work differently, but parents can more easily extend compassion when they understand the neural underpinnings that are contributing to the behaviors and the main narratives. And I think it all connects also to how hard it is to stay calm and our kids are not, that we often tell ourselves a story who can stay calm and there's a tantrum. I remember parents my practice being like, you're telling me there's parents who like tantrums like they're fine with it.

I'm like, no, I'm not telling you that. Of course not. Like nobody likes tantrums. Like, I don't like tantrums. I'm not like, woohoo, best part of my day. No way. Okay. But what I'm saying is when you have clarity on understanding what the tantrum is about,

when you have clarity on understanding the thing that really triggered it under the surface, and when you have clarity on what you need to do in that moment, the tantrum doesn't trigger you. The tantrum never triggered you. The lack of understanding and the lack of clarity triggers us because as humans, especially as adults with these kids that we love so much,

we all love our kids so much. Feeling confused is what makes us overwhelmed, and that's actually what makes us triggered. We end up yelling at our kids often in those moments, honestly, because we're like, I just want to stop feeling the way I'm feeling, right? So it goes back to understanding and having a new framework for your nerd virgin kid,

for your kid with ADHD, for your kid, who, you know, I would say likely is a deeply feeling kid in addition to those things. It's not one or the other. It's not a way when people say, well, this work. It's not a way to say, now they're gonna have no struggles. No, but if working, we can define by, well, I understand my kid,, will I have relief and hope,

will I actually know the strategies to use in the hard moments, will I know the strategies to use out of those moments to build the skills to have fewer of those hard moments? Yes, it will work every time, not right away. And it will always take longer than we want. It will, I'm just a true teller, it will, sorry. Right, and it will work.

All of those things are true. A hundred percent, you know, and do I think that compassion should only be extended to kids once we have a diagnosis or a label like DFK, I do not. But I think that this work with DFK is bringing to light that maybe we should be extending the same consideration to every child and arguably the every child and everyone is good inside. And let's like proceed from that platform, right? Yes, yes. Any final thoughts, Alex? And you are just such an important person in this field.

I feel like you are putting forward so many important ideas and helping parents who have kids who are neurodivergent, who do have ADHD, who are struggling these ways and helping them get access to the approach they need to feel better themselves and actually help their kids short-term and long-term. That's just amazing. Thank you. Thanks, Becky. I think final thoughts if parents are ever concerned that their kids might meet criteria for a diagnostic condition to talk to their pediatrician and get an evaluation underway. And if they don't meet criteria, it doesn't mean that the struggles are not there and that there are tools out there like this one that can help. It's not going to make everything

go away, but think of them as tools to use in your toolkit when things get hard. So I hope that's helpful. Alex, thank you so much. Thank you, Becky. It was such a pleasure. Thanks for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com slash podcast. You could also write me at podcast to goodinside.com slash podcast. You could also write me at podcast at goodinside.com. Parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world. And parents deserve resources and support so they feel empowered, confident, and connected.

I'm so excited to share good inside membership. The first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like-valued parents. It's totally game-changing. Good Inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Newsom at Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhi, Julia Nat, and Kristen Muller. I would also like to thank Eric Obelsky, Mary Panico, and the rest

of the Good Inside team. And one last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, even as I struggle, and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside.