Good Life Project - 9 Things: Dying For Fame, Manly Beards, Online Dating and More

Episode Date: March 24, 2015

Over the next few months, we'll be testing a few different show and segment ideas. Not to replace our current weekly in-depth interviews, but to potentially add to them.Yes, you heard right. There just might be more GLP to engage with on a regular basis, real soon.And, today's our first experiment, with a new show format we're calling 9Things™.What is it? A three-person roundtable, where each person shows up with three topics to jam on. And, the thing is, nobody knows what the other person's topics will be until they hit the conversation.My guests for the premier episode of the 9Things format are two good friends, Gabra Zackman and Erin Moon.As you can imagine, this leads to moments that range from seriously funny to seriously soulful and, well, seriously not-safe-for-work (headphones might be advised for this one, toward the later parts).We absolutely want your feedback on this new format and episode, so please share your thoughts in the comments below or by tweeting me @jonathanfields.As I mentioned, it's not going to replace out weekly conversations, we're just playing with potential additional show formats to add into the mix.Covered in this episode:Bronies: adult men My Little Pony lovers - Freaky or soulful?Depression: is it okay to own it, and what's the opposite?Maniacal taskmasters: do you need one to become the best in the world?Negotiating with terror: where do human rights begin and end?Vision-boarding: silly myth or scientific tool?Paying for faith: will people give more if they don't have to give at all?Online dating: full frontal pics, where's the lineTrue love, twice found: is it possible to have two loves of a lifetime?Manly beards: because, c'mon, hipsters are people too!Links we mention:Rethinking Positive ThinkingMisfitBeard InstituteFollow Gabra and Erin:Gabra ZackmanErin Moon Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot if we need him!

Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. One of the coolest things about podcasting, especially right around now, when it's kind of a little bit like the wild, wild west, every time I blink, there's not just a new podcast launching now, but there's a new network. There's a new format. People are testing.

They're diving in. They're playing. They're experimenting. They're visioneering. They're just kind of going nuts with all the possibility. It is so much fun to see the level of creativity and innovation that's unfolding in this space right now. And we want to actually kind of ride along with that as well. So we're going to start testing a couple of really interesting

kind of cool, fun, different formats. Now, this is not going to replace our regular in-depth weekly conversations but we may start to add to those shows today is a first addition to that it's a format we call nine things what is that it's me hanging out sitting around the table with two other people each of us bring three topics to the conversation without the others knowing what those topics are beforehand and we will just rock and roll and go around the table until we cover all nine topics. And we figured everything out 100%. Or maybe not, maybe we'll just kind of move on because we can't figure anything out. The first conversation, my guests are Aaron Moon and Gabra Zachman. They've both been on the show before as in-depth

conversation guests. So you may know their names and if you don't go check them out. And of course, we'll include links to both of them in the show notes. This is being recorded after that first episode has already been done and edited. What I can tell you is the episode is raw. It's poignant. It's real. It's funny. And at points, it is absolutely not safe for work. So if you've got small children or sensitive people in the room, throw on some headphones. Be advised. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. Shall we start with Gabba throwing out the first topic here? Sure. So I'm going to throw out sort of an entertaining one to get us started. And I don't know much about it, to be honest. I did not do the research I meant to do beforehand. But this was actually something we were talking about in the women's dressing room of this show that I'm putting up right now. That one of the women came in and said that she had been watching a documentary on bronies. Has anyone heard about this?

I have. It's freaky. It's freaky. Okay, so the reason my friend found out about bronies, because she read a story in the paper about, and this maybe is the thing that kicked it off, or at least kicked the awareness of it off, that there was, I think, an 11-year-old boy

who was really into My Little my little pony and he was made fun of for it and i believe he ended his own life i believe this is the story oh my gosh but then suddenly all of these people began coming out of the woodwork men straight men gay men it's not you know to say actually i also love my little pony and I've been, I learn a lot from it. And I've been watching. And the grown, grown straight men being like, actually. So they started up this like, it's now become a thing called bronies. As in like, yo, bro.

You like the My Little Pony? I like the My Little Pony. And there's apparently two documentaries which you can stream on Netflix if you just search under bronies. No way. But apparently it's opened up this whole conversation about, I gather, men, compassion, where we learn our lessons. How we gender identify at a young age. That's right. And I guess just letting people be who they are, right?

Because here's something – here's like a very extreme version of someone who is teased for just liking something. But of course, it brings up the whole, there's just so many issues of people with, you know, confused sexuality, or I'm gay, I'm a young age, and I'm gay, or I'm transgender, but I'm young, but I'm and these people are, you know, teased, persecuted, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I think this becomes like a lens in which we see that argument, right? Discuss. And discuss. I don't know. I just was fascinated by it. And we were all having a fascinating conversation about it being like, what is this? And apparently, it's actually like a pretty large, I mean, it's a big global community. That's right. Yeah. That, you know, manly men, you know, like all sorts of people. It's, I'm trying to remember where I first

learned about it. It was last year sometime. There was some kind of news story on it. I don't think it was in relation to that kid. It was kicked off by something else. Oh, okay. Because I was kind of obsessed. I was doing all this research on movements and revolutions, and I was looking for unifying factors. Somehow I stumbled upon that, and I was like,

what a fascinating thing for men to unite around. And like, what does it say culturally about us, but also about the men? And like, I'm going back and forth. I'm like, okay, these dudes are just freaks. Well, right. But they don't do you, right. Right. Because that's my initial impression.

Or like, you know, is there actually something really big and powerful going on here that like we need to actually explore? Well, I just wonder if it's like any portal toward compassion is a fine portal for me. So if it happens to be like a kid's cartoon, which is in some way inciting compassion and good lessons about how to connect with people in a kind manner, then I guess I don't care that it's weird, right? Well, and the way that we're crafting children. Because I think the guys, the men talking about it now is about something they did as

a child, as opposed to maybe their proclivity toward My Little Pony's at the present date. No, I think it is at the present date. It is at the present date. Are you kidding me? No, no, no. That's why I brought this topic in. This was not like reflecting on their youth. Oh, wow.

No, this is like dudes who are into it now, dude. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay, so now it's starting. It's all coming. She's like, wait a minute. I'm a little bit sleep deprived. No, look, you don't even have to be sleep deprived to be confused.

This is why I brought this in. It does help, though. It gives me an out. That's right. But, I mean, it's – all of us were kind of like, you know, we're in a dressing room where we're doing an old chestnut. So we're all in, like, wigging up. You know, we're putting on wigs. We're putting on 20s outfits. And we're like, these guys are doing what?

Like, fascinating. Right now. That's right. Well, and that's what's so bizarre about it getting wings and maybe it's we just need the next thing to entertain us or something because it's got to be a very small subset. Like, yes, there will be grown men apparently who play with My Little Ponies at the current date, but in the population. I don't know, Jonathan's saying it's a global movement, right? I don't know that it is a small.

Is it a small global movement? How do we quantify it? Is it like one guy in Ecuador and like one guy in Paris? See, I know the answer to that, but I would have to reveal my membership status. That's right, that's right. And we're sworn to secrecy. We can't tell how many. I saw that little brush when I came in your house.

You'd have to hand over your Brody's card. We're recording this. You don't have to out me like that. Come on, man. Yeah. All right. It is interesting. And like, is it a compassionate thing?

Is it a freaky thing? Is it just yes? Yes, it's both. Is it? Maybe. And is it just coming into our view because we need a form of entertainment? I mean, because there is going to be a subset of humanity for every small little thing. There are so bloody many of us.

We come from a multitude of different backgrounds. There's going to be a proclivity towards the strange. Right. And who are any of us? I mean, I can see a BDSM person judging the person for being a brony. Exactly. Oh, totally. But really?

Like, really, really? Yeah. I just think, I'm just. It's like, but really? Like, really, really? Yeah. I just think, I'm just wondering sometimes if all of this is just about seeking connection. Right. Yes. Right? It's just a portal towards connection, especially in the world in which we always talk about and acceptance in which we always talk about with all of our wonderful technological gadgets,

how, in fact, disconnected we've become as a people that maybe all of these sort of seemingly fragmented things are all portals towards connection. I don't know. So that we understand our existence and our world and what's going to happen and what has happened. And how do I define myself? Why do I need definition lines? Like I need to know I stand between this line and this line. And every time I do that, I separate myself from something that's more. And then when it's outside of that line, I go freaky. Or then I go, wait a minute, is that freaky?

Oh, no, now that's part of my world. Now my perspective just got bigger. Or it's just about men liking ponies. And then there's that. All right. Next topic, Erin. Well, going on that line, and I'm going to kind of. Men liking ponies or something else?

About men liking ponies. Just about this idea of the parameters and limitations of our acceptance. I've been noticing, and maybe it's a perspective shift of my own because of what's gone on in my own life. But I've noticed recently, I've had friends literally coming out of the closet about depression. And I have one friend in particular who is suffering so greatly right now. And I just met with him. And one of the things that is so difficult about what he is going through is that he feels there is no community, that his mental illness is not accepted as an illness in our society, that We don't accept that it's part of the potential, like we're constantly trying to fix it or say, well, that's because you're just too into, you know, there's too much going on here, or that's just a chemical thing. So get the meds, as opposed to like, you could get on the best meds, you could go to the best functional medicine doctor on the face of

the planet, you could do all the right things. And you still might think every single day about killing yourself. And that that is somehow not a viable state of being or and that we're certainly not going to talk about it. Like we don't want to have it in our family or accept it. And like, so I, of course we know what you've gone through and it's horrendous and you've had this incredible journey. But I can, how is thinking about killing yourself every day a viable state of being? I mean, not acting on it is great. But I think that in the same way you could if I wanted to play devil's advocate, I guess I could say how is thinking that I need to be happy or I need to live. Well, I guess live makes sense because you're trying to live. It's a viable state.

You're being. But, yeah, that somehow we're not allowed. I don't know. It just somehow we're not allowed to. I think it's the word viable that you just used. Maybe that's what it is. Valid versus viable maybe. Well, maybe.

I mean, exactly. Or common. Like I think the issue here I think is that I actually think depression is the most common – I don't even know if I would say sort of situation, disease, mental illness, struggle. I would use the word struggle. State. I would say it's the most common state that I see in my community of people around me. And that is in varying degrees. That is in depression that's temporary, depression that feels long-term, depression that feels mild, and depression that feels really, really, really severe. I think that is the most ubiquitous state I see my people in. And I don't know

if that's given its fair shake. I don't know if that's allowed to be in a world in which we have every other book is how to be happy. Seems like you could do something, right? Because what those books are saying is you have the ability to make yourself happy, which is actually not true if someone has clinical depression. Yeah. Right? That's what the – It's also not true partially based on genetics. I mean –

Yeah. And this is sneak preview from the next book, right? Is that there is actually – there's a genetic element to how happy you can be. And some people literally have a set point where it's set more towards the melancholy scale of things. If you're from anywhere in Eastern Europe, it is set far to the melancholy. So I mean, but the challenge is if like you're reading about all these things, and if everyone around you is telling you to be happy, be happy, be happy.

Yeah. And you can't genetically raise yourself through, I mean, let's say it's about 40% of us, your set point is around genetic. So you do have substantial control, right? But you don't have complete control. So you do everything behaviorally, environmentally that you can do to make yourself as happy as possible. But it still doesn't meet the level of sort of like societal happiness that everybody around you says is, quote, happy. You're screwed because then everyone's judging you for not doing enough to get happy when it's like, you know what, you're actually, you're where you need to be and you're where you can be based on your biology. It's not part of it is absolutely

within your control, but part is just not. And we freaking hate to own that. No, we do. We hate it. And you know, the other thing is I think people think that the opposite of depression is happiness, right? That the opposite of happiness is depression. But I don't think so. I think in some way, the opposite of depression is acceptance. I don't know. These are theories that I've looked. So I have a different take on that. You do? Go ahead. What do you think? Yeah. And this was partly triggered by Aaron, by my conversation with you a couple months back,

but also by a conversation I had with Chip Connolly even before that. And he threw out, he's like the opposite of depression to curiosity. Fascinating. So I thought that was actually really interesting. Oh my God, I love that. This is something that a friend of ours, Jen Bennett, talked about this, like, what is this step? We think that happiness is this huge, freaking joyous symphonic, and it has to do with this collective stuff that we have or this collective bunch of definition of house and wife and you know husband and child and dog and thing

and especially in western society like that is what makes happiness happen if we don't have that quantifiable those quantifiable things then we don't have it as opposed to it's the hope like it's that little piece the ability that my friend has when he's really having a terrible time and walking around the streets of new york late at night and and um weeping the thing that keeps him from going in front of the car like the thing that stops him every time he has one of those death thoughts from doing it that is hope like that's the happiness that's the curiosity enough to go i'm not like to not have that choice be made and that is in some form the bottom of his happiness yeah that curiosity that's something i think there's something really powerful in that yeah

the big thing for him was a community and acceptance that that we are not he doesn't feel like any everybody else is living in a different reality which he's going to feel you know partially anyway but also that it's not it's this hidden little thing and it's not considered an illness and it's not accepted. And, yeah, and it's people I feel are literally coming out of the closet about it lately. Interesting. All right. Rocking on to my topic number one. Yeah.

You guys saw the movie Whiplash? No. Oh, my God. I'm talking to the two people on Earth. I haven't seen the movie Whiplash. Oh, my God. Seriously? We need to stop this recording right now. You need to go see it. And just watch Whiplash. We're Oh, my God. I'm talking to the two people on Earth that haven't seen the movie Whiplash. Oh, my God. Seriously? We need to stop this recording right now.

You need to go see it. And just watch Whiplash and come back. We're going to recant it shortly. Awesome. That's the next idea. The next idea is like now we stop and do the research and then get back on. So it's the basics. But you guys both come out of the world of performance.

Yes. You totally get this. It's basically, it's a fictitional version of like the jazz band leader at Juilliard. They don't really call it Juilliard. That's right. That's right. That's right. The most elite band in the world. And this kid who's like a young kid drops into it.

And he wants to be, in his mind, he wants to be the best jazz drummer who's ever lived. And he's basically willing to die for it. And the maniacal band leader is willing to kill him in the name of making him the best or destroying him. And in the end, it's a really powerful movie because it doesn't really give you an answer to the question, do you actually have to work that hard to be the best in the world? And do you need a maniacal sadist, like narcissist, driving you to that point to make it happen? And the movie kind of leaves you saying, I don't know.

And I would love to believe that it's complete bullshit and you don't. I would love to believe that you can become extraordinary at something through some combination of talent and just insane work and deep passion and purpose and love for it. But I don't know. And I'm curious. What do you guys think? It's tough, right? Because if you think of the best, the best at the best at everything, and you think of their days and what they do in their days, A, they all have a maniacal coach.

Yep. Might not be to that level, but they all have a parent. Yep. Show moms. Yep. Right? In our world. Absolutely.

And in the athletic world, everybody's got a parent. They've got somebody pushing them so hard. Yeah, my God. Think about the Olympics world, everybody's got a parent. They've got somebody pushing them so hard. And all they do is that. They live it. They breathe it. They think it. They do it every moment of every day. All the athletes I know, the circus people I know, who do crazy things with their bodies, the ballet ballet dancers that people who bring their kids to, you know, and start the ballet programs, their parents are the ones, the kids have the motivation. They might have the seed, right? But then there's all of this stuff going on around them that's like, that's, I don't know.

I think it's commonly accepted that you can get really good. And then there's all, you know, like there's Anders Ericsson's 10,000 hour rule, which now is sort of like starting to be pieced apart. And now apparently there's all sorts of flaws and it's not nearly as generally ethical as people once thought. But, you know, there's this difference between really, really, really good and like the best in the world. And like is that, you know, one-tenth of one percent difference is the leap that it takes to bridge that massively different than to just get really, really, really good. And this obviously doesn't even get into the conversation of is it worth it? There's another scene in the movie where the kid is sitting around the table with his dad and like

an uncle and two other kids. And he basically comes out with a line that says something like, you know, like, I'd rather die at 34. But no, I I was the best jazz drummer who ever lived than live the rest of my life and not being that person. Yeah. Hey, wow. Yeah. You know? And at first glance, you're like, that's sick. That's warped.

That's completely messed up. Or is it? Or is it? That's a personal preference. Yeah. Or is it what drives that particular human in a way that's in its own right beautiful. And if we didn't have those occasional people in the world who lead astonishing, astonishing breakthroughs in science, in art, in all this stuff, the ones where they lead massive leaps forward very often to their own deep detriment and death, it's really easy to view this as

a black and white yes or no issue. And that was my first inclination. The more I really thought about it, I'm like, it's tough. Yeah. Well, and is that consistency, like what he says in that moment, what is the real possibility? So for longevity, it's kind of like a company who tries to make a lot of money right away as opposed to the company who sets up to have longevity and make more.

And that's the question that I always find really interesting in the business world is many companies that my dad would work for, I would see them where they would try to make tons of money right away, like the kid trying to get everything and all the fame as fast and as big and as intensely expansive as possible in his art? Or do you actually end up when you don't do that or do less of that and not get it all in right now, do you make way more in the end over a much longer period of time, but you're not going to be able to see it like you don't get the bang off like, I got my reward right away, as opposed to I'm going to be able to see it. Like you don't get the bang off like I got my reward right away as opposed to I'm going to get my reward in 20 years. Right. No, I think that's right on.

I mean, I think about these things all the time being in the arts, and I come back to that moment of thinking some combination of how do you enjoy your life the most and what is your purpose on this earth and i would imagine that for some people how they enjoy themselves and their life the most and what their purpose is on the earth is that level of rigorous right i mean i think for me it's it's it's not i think how i love my life on this earth is more what you were just describing and as well for me right Right, that's right. Which I think is why it makes it really easy for us to pass judgment on the other.

That's right. But I actually think there are some people who thrive in being at the highest level of pursuit and who want that person next to them to push them to the next highest level of pursuit. And that that is actually what they're born for and made for on this earth. It's the people that we sort of look up to or watch or learn from. They guide us. But I think for many of the rest of us, maybe that's not how we would be happiest or best served.

Yeah, it's just so interesting because my first inclination was black and white, and then I'm like, it's just not that straightforward. And then like who and why am I judging? Even though I would really like to judge, because I'm like, that's insane. That's maniacal. I don't want people to live that way. But then I'm like. But if they want to live that way.

Yeah. All right. Moving on. Round two. Great. Gabber. Okay. I'm going to jump off of the point of it's not all black and white with this issue that

I have been fascinated by since it came up in the summer, which is the Beau Bergdahl case. You guys been watching this in the newspapers? Great. Oh, I'm so glad. Let me give you the two-bit clip here. So this happened over the summer that there was, I believe, an army sergeant who was traded for five Taliban prisoners from Guantanamo, I believe. And I'm sorry if I'm getting any of the information wrong, but I've read a couple times about this because I was fascinated from the time it came out. So something we rarely do, right? We say we don't negotiate with terrorists, but there was a negotiation, and it was a really big one.

They initially wanted a whole lot more. They got him down to five. And in exchange for this sergeant, whose name is Bo Bergdahl, we exchanged five Taliban prisoners. Now, here's where it gets interesting. Bo Bergdahl has just been convicted of desertion, meaning that we didn't actually trade these five prisoners for a war hero. We traded them for what was at the time a potential deserter, and he has just been convicted just within the last week of desertion. So what happened? Obama at the time said, we don't know what the answer is. And we do, you know, it is written into our code of law that we will do anything to get an American back into a safe place.

But then there's this whole issue of the fact that we actually say we don't negotiate with terrorists. But there was a negotiation that took place. But then there was all this conflicting information because this sergeant had sent emails home to his family saying, I disagree with the army. We have done terrible things over here in Afghanistan. My superiors are terrible at their jobs. I want out. And he sent a bunch of his stuff home as well. So this becomes an incredibly complicated case. Why did we do it? Why did we negotiate for his release so strongly and so forthrightly in a way that trumps lots of other times past? Why did we do that? And I wonder about it. Was there a mistake in the intelligence given at the time? Or were we scared he was going to be giving

information? Or did we just not have all the facts? Or is all of this a publicity stunt for some reason that I don't understand politically speaking? There's like all sorts of gray and black and white and gray involved here. I mean, what jumps out to me, and this is, I like an even different lens on this, is he less worthy of the negotiation if he is a deserter? That is the question. That's actually the question. Are you trying to retrieve a human being or are you trying to retrieve a non-deserting human being?

Like, is the fact that he violated the law because he consciously objected to the reason that he was put there, does that remove what we would have considered a fundamental human right that's worthy of our reference? That is exactly what all the newspapers are talking about.

And what all of that, because there's, you can imagine, there are huge camps on both sides. There are people being like, he is a deserter how would you do that and then there's other people who are like this is a human right this is a human rights issue yeah we got one of ours back because he was being held like it's a it's a triumph actually because we got someone back who was being held you know who was being held hostage. Yeah. And also the juxtaposition between no man left behind.

That's right. And we don't negotiate with terrorists. That's right. Like what happens when you have two fundamental rules that hit? Right. And that they happen to hit while there's another issue going on, right? They happen to then hit where then there's a layer of... How do we value an American? Right, and how do we value someone who says

he's on board with what we're doing versus he's not on board with what we're doing? Do we view him differently because he deserted than we would have if he was... And obviously they didn't view him any differently, right? No. But it has come under intense scrutiny by the media, by politics, by the army, by family and friends, by family and friends of the soldiers who didn't deserve.

I mean, the ramifications of it are, I find it endlessly fascinating because I can't quite parse out, and I'll never know, what information they knew going in, what they were trying to stave off, what they were trying to prove. Were they just doing their duty? Was this about something bigger? I mean, it's one of those issues that you just look at and you're like, oh, boy, that's a complicated one. Yeah. And you wonder how much is behind the veil. Right. Like, how much do we not know?

And as far as, like you said, the politics involved. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, that's a tough one. That is a really tough one. Baffled. Right? Baffled. All right. So that's going down as baff right. Yeah. Yeah, that's a tough one. That is a really tough one. Baffled. Right? Baffled. So that's going down as baffled. Perfect. Moving on. Nice. Moving on.

We filled each box. Yep. Excellent. So and now for a man with three buttocks. Excellent. There's only one? What? Damn, that was mine too. Damn, something completely different. There's another one? What? Damn, that was mine too. Damn, something completely different. There's another one you need?

I've been talking to my wife. Son of a bitch, the secret's out. We weren't supposed to go there today. I just want the people to really know you. The better it comes from us, right? Oh my goodness. It's with love. three-butted love i am really interested in your guys your both of yours your opinions in particular when you first

posited this to us um the grand experiment uh this was the first thing that came to mind to talk to you guys about and it's about the idea of goal setting and dream boarding. And what your opinion is on goal setting and dream boarding. It's hogwash. Don't do it. Down with it. I formed a political action campaign. Down with dream boarding. And I was the first donor. Down with it, we say. My dream is to have no dream board.

See, now this is a real issue. The whole thing about, you know, like deserters and stuff, please. Yeah, no, no, no. That's what I said. That's why I called on Monty Python. I know. It's like I brought in something really superficial. I'm sorry, you guys.

So there's some science around this, actually. Yeah? Oh, bring it. If you're interested. That's wow. And it's the it is, people call it different things. But in a way, it's the difference between what would be considered outcome simulation or visualization, and process simulation or visualization. Fabulous. Talk to me. And so a vision board would be an example of this. Here's like a really vivid manifestation picture, drawing, whatever it is, vision board, like what people make. They cut out things from magazines.

I want a Ferrari and a house. And it's like, okay, that's where I want to be. That's what I want to get. That's what I want to have. This is the end state, right? Whereas a process would be more like this is the work that's going to take every day for me to get from here to there. And I'm going to keep bringing into my mind the tasks that I need to do and the work that's going to take and visualize myself doing those things. The work, the process.

The work more so than just the outcome. So what the research that I'm aware of shows is that the outcome, the vision boarding type of thing, makes a little bit of difference. Process, the task-oriented visualization, doing the work that it takes to actually get there is much more effective at actually achieving that outcome faster and achieving a higher level outcome. There's a really interesting book out called Rethinking Positive Thinking. And she really examines a lot of this research now also where she looks at and what she finds is essentially my understanding of the research is that a realistic approach rather than delusional. You know, like this is what I want. It's like crazy out there.

But if I don't you know the whole well you might not hit it but at least if you shoot for you know like the the moon you like you end up and you end up higher um that can actually be destructive yeah um and it can also stop you from actually doing the work needed to get and like a really healthy dose of reality attached to a desired end state but but a true understanding of what you really have to do to get there is the most effective way at actually moving towards that outcome. That's extraordinary. I love to hear you say that because I feel like I've experienced what you're saying, which is to set goals without a reality behind it can actually cause real

disenchantment. You and I were using that word earlier, but that kind of like that feeling of, but I'll never get there. Why would I even try? And the whole like downward spiral of kind of crashing. But I find that in, in general, for me personally, as specific as I can get, I somehow, I think I manifest things more deeply as specific as I could get. So I realized recently that I was doing a lot of, this is not quite what you're talking about because it's not exactly on a board, let's say, but the basic idea.

Every morning I like to sort of have a goal or this or that. I realized at some point recently that something I was saying to myself every morning was, today, I'm going to be open to just greet whatever possibility comes my way and go with it. And I realized that that generality is wildly unhelpful. It's like scattered energy. It's unfocused. It's like random, like, you know, whatever comes my way, I will greet it. That's not helpful. So there's some way in which there are two things that I think are at play all the time with regard to goals and dreams, which is to give yourself goals and dreams, but also be open to the ways in which it's actually possible for those things to be achieved. You know, there's like a dual thing going on. I think there's a specificity of the vision.

There's also got to be an openness to the reality, right, and the ways that it could actually be manifested. Yeah. And I would add to that, I totally agree, that there's also got to be an openness to the fact that the dream that you have laid out is far smaller than the possible outcome. That's wonderful. If you don't stay deliberately bound for that dream. So like, I know so many people are like, this is where I want to go. And they get there. But because they've had such fierce blinders on along the way, they have ignored like so many opportunities that would have taken them on a different path. So like their dream was to go from A to C, you know,

but they had nine different opportunities where had they been open to the possibility that something actually even cooler existed, they would have allowed themselves to experiment and to explore and ended up not going from A to C, but A to Z. Yeah. Right. Exactly. And this is the thing that interests me the most about at least a friend of ours, Lisa Benner, and I were talking about it last night about this idea that as soon as the goal or the dream is only your imagination and your perception of something, you are limited.

Like at that moment, when you make that goal or dream, you are limited. Your perception is limited. Your life is limited to the parameters in which it exists at that moment. And when you're looking to throw yourself at that tiny little hole with the blinders on, you are inevitably going to lose a wing. And in Eastern philosophy, it all comes to expectations. As soon as you have the expectation, you will inevitably suffer. And part of the suffering is getting what you want sometimes,

because you haven't opened yourself up to the limitless possibility if you follow each seed along the way or the task or following the goal, the little bits and pieces. So it's like, what do you want to see manifest? What feelings do you want to see manifest? What qualities do you want to see manifest in your life? So what are the seeds you plant along the way to accomplish that is a little bit more palatable to me, like, because it gives that focus, then the idea of a hard set goal, because that is limited to what I thought of at that time.

And if I don't open myself up to it, up to all those paths along the way, if I hadn't opened myself up to all the paths I had along the way, when I was, you know, the 20 year old kid coming to New York city who wanted to be on Broadway, you know, I wouldn't have the, the, the things that have helped me find happiness again in my life after suffering the ultimate unexpected, you know, and, and the one thing, one of the multitudes of things that that has given me is the sense that, well, the only thing that I'm guaranteed in life is that things will change. And that includes me and my goals and everything around me. And that doesn't mean that I should stop planting the seeds. But what do I want to, you know, as opposed to singling out what I want to see manifest.

Okay. So rolling around. Topic number two. Person number, I don't know. It's you. It's me. Interesting article in New York Times today. Okay.

So this was about synagogues in the United States, although it really could be broadened to any faith-based organization, churches, whatever it may be. For years, apparently, so this is me speaking. I love A.J. Jacobs' line, I'm Jewish the way that Olive Garden is Italian. That's kind of the way I was brought up, right? So I'm not really speaking as that much of an insider here, but apparently most organizations have always been dues-based and they're sort of like a mandatory thing. And it's mandatory based on different things. It could be like a percentage of your annual income, which apparently a lot of it is. But there's always an expectation that there's going to be a fixed dues. So apparently, because through a combination of really disenfranchisement with organized religion and just a lot of people not having the money, especially, and this was actually, the article was about outside of Detroit where a lot of people were just smacked hard and they couldn't go anymore.

There's now like a growing number of synagogues that are switching to a pay what you can mode, which completely changes the nature of the experience. So families that had just left faith because somebody's out of a job and they can't go or they don't want to feel like they're being shunned or whatever it is because they can't meet their recommended donation level are coming back and just paying what they need to pay. So the big question, of course, with that is, but is the net amount that's coming into the pot bigger, less, or about the same? And according to this article, it was actually saying that on average, I'm going to read it to you, they have reported a 4% growth in both members and revenue, even as many congregations are declining on both fronts. Disgust.

No way. Oh, I love it. More. I love it. I would have thought, I love it. More. I love it. I would have thought, I mean, it's 4%, so it's pretty close to what it was before, but I would have really, I would have thought dead even. I wouldn't have thought less

because they've done studies where they say no matter kind of how you rejigger it, people always donate the same amount every year. Like, no matter whether they're giving $10 to 100 different places or they're giving $1,000 to one, they're only going to give that one. Or 100.

That was bad math. It's okay. You're from Canada. You guys use a decimal system. We hope that you all enjoyed the silence that occurred. That was like amazing. For three people who never stopped talking, there was just like a very potent silence.

Just correct me when I'm that wrong. What do I say? Oh, my God. No, that was so good. That's what it took to get all of us to shut up for like 10 seconds. I'm just trying to do the math, okay? You know I am a writer. We are all in the arts.

That was a pity pause. Everybody, we're all in the arts. You felt sorry for me. That's what that was. No, I was actually just terribly, terribly confused. I was thinking $100 to $10 and not $10 to $100. I was just waiting for Gabby to say something smart. Can't start giggling because it's never going to end.

So the general idea of that thought was we give the same amount no matter what the rules are. Yeah. And a little more to that story also. Apparently part of the process was at the same time these faith-based organizations were becoming more transparent. So they basically say, we're opening up our books. Here's what it costs to run this place. Here are all of our expenses. That's amazing.

So people would actually feel like they're much more, they're not just giving because this is what you're supposed to give. They understand what they actually need to support. They understand what their support is. Right. So some people who were giving the required amount started giving a lot more, knowing that they wanted other people to be in the congregation who couldn't possibly cover that

and they wanted this place to continue to exist. I just think it's a really interesting model beyond faith. You know, just kind of like in terms of general economy and how you handle trying to serve people in times that are really struggling. And because you would look at something like that, you're like, this is never going to work, man. Like if some, before I read this and if like a lot of people look at this, they'd be like,

okay, we're going to do this. Never work. And in fact, we, right, so the three of us come out of the yoga world. We all have some experience. And some of us like really on the business side. And when I was running a studio in New York City, you know, like the original, original, original ethic in yoga was, you know, like you either pay nothing or you donate, it's donation.

Like, if you can't afford to pay, you just come and you take class and that it is what it is. And then in the big cities and you know, it's like, oh, you can't do that. You can't pay, like, we've got real rent. You know, like this is big boy yoga people. And we've got expenses and teacher and payroll and stuff like that.

We need, you need to charge a fixed amount. And then along comes, you brand, which basically says, pay what you can. Right. And they really flourish and have packed classes. So it's really interesting because it's another really interesting check that when you're trying to actually do something, we tend to take the path of least faith in humanity. When it comes to building, quote, responsible business, and we move away from faith and we move towards like show me the numbers.

Yeah. And it's interesting to see what happens when sometimes you just lean completely into faith, especially when you're a faith-based organization. You step into that and you say, like, I need to trust. And then the community provides. Or, you know, if you want to look at it from that faith, you know, like God provides. However you want to frame it, you know, is this just about faith-based organizations or is this something bigger? And it was just something I was thinking on when I saw that article. Well, I love it. I mean, you know, I think it's what we all wish could happen all over the place,

right? Although I don't know who, now that I'm saying we all, I'm not really sure who the we all is. And then I'm thinking, of course, of, well, from each according to his ability, to each according to his need. It's a great idea that failed so bad. You know what I mean? Like it's so – this is what we wish. Again, I don't know who the we is, but most of us in the world. That's the utopian idea. That's right.

We wish it was this way. But the grandest experiments out there. Yeah. Tom Stoppard says, you know, we're not good enough for this beautiful idea when it comes to that. And I think that's what it comes down to. Yeah, when it comes to personal accountability, right? Human nature and also like there will be – if everybody is of the same ethic, you know, it works. Right.

But there will never be – when you start – can you actually scale this idea without stumbling upon somebody who doesn't share that same ethic who enters into the tribe? I don't know. If you're cultivating honesty and if you're cultivating community, then that's the thing that's going to come to you. And then the hope, I guess, is that the money comes with that. Or are you setting up a business, setting up only a business practice that like the paradigm, you know, for yoga, it's kind of like, are you doing corporate yoga in New York City, where it's like a corporate meaning you are a corporation who is providing for a person who can pay a price point, and you're never going to deviate from that,

you're going to say, No, we don't do Groupons. We don't do, you know, all these plethora of little coupons. And no, if you want to come to us, this is what you pay. And they do really, really stinking well. And then you have the Yoga for the Peoples. Right. Yeah. Those kind of organizations who say, well, we're going to be really honest. And we're going to say, this is how much all of this works. This is how this costs. This is the kind of teachers we have.

Come, pay what you can. And they, I guarantee you, they get, I mean, they get huge. Yeah, I mean, I don't know what their numbers are, but they do. I don't know what their financial numbers are, but I know just in terms of attendance numbers. It's insane. Right. I mean, and so the question really is then, do you have to pick one or the other to experience flourishing real business? Right.

And it's like anything in the middle is kind of doom. But if you go to the extremes of both, those are the two functional business models. I think it's interesting because SoulCycle is an interesting example too. They open in a city surrounded by health clubs that all have, you know, indoor cycling classes. And they open the studio where it's like, you know, a single class is very pricey. It's on the absolute top of the market, but they set the market. And then the demand for their services is so over the top that every Monday at noon, they open the schedule for the week. And like within minutes, every bike from all of the popular classes are gone.

So it is really interesting. Like, you know, it does feel almost like you've got to play on one of the two extreme ends. Yeah. No, I think it's exactly right. If you play in the middle, it doesn't work. Well, like the priest that you've talked about who came to the community and went door to door to see what was going on in the community. Yeah.

Yeah, and then built this megachurch on it. I mean, because of the fact that he listened to the people. He found the honesty, and it became the business. But I kind of feel a little bit like it is. The business model works if you just do the good business thing or if you go from the honest thing because the honesty because if you try to meld in the middle then the business part ends up fighting the honesty because inevitably you're going to sacrifice. But you just said something when you go you either do the business thing or you come from the honesty thing

which so there's a big assumption in there which is when you do the business thing, you're not honest. Yeah. You feel that way? I think that you're more willing to sacrifice your honesty when your focus is business. I don't think I agree with that. No? Oh, no, I have to think

about that, but I don't think I agree with that. Yeah. I don't think it's a rule. Because I was the example of the business model, right? Or really. Yeah, when I ran the studio, we didn't go do pay as you go. I mean, we did some things that were very ethical. You know, when we opened shortly after 9-11, we just told everybody to come.

But fundamentally, you know, like we were fixed price. We were business driven. And what's interesting is if I had – there were actually a number of times where I stopped and I was like, you know, I really, really, really seriously considered the pay what you can model for the studio. And I was really close to pulling the trigger on doing it a number of times. But at the time I was married, owned a home and had a three month three-month-old baby when I started the business. So you pile those things on.

I'm like, okay, there's the kind of proven business model where at least I can justify the numbers to me and to anybody who's asking me, what the hell are you doing? Yes. And then there's the pure faith model, which could work, which feels ethically like this is the thing for everybody. But man, it's really hard for me to hang my hat on that if I'm saying I'm going to support a family in New York City and build a business based on pure faith, 100% faith. And when I think of that particular business and that era of that business,

I think of the melding of community and business in a really good way. Interesting. Anyway, we went way past that topic. No, I love that topic. No, it's a hard one. Well, I hate following that up with this. Do you have a Monty Python quote to segue us?

We need to cleanse the mental palate. I don't know. I mean, let's push this into a little bit of trashy, okay? So I guess this- Well, my last topic is trashy too, so feel good about it. Okay, great, great, great. So the overall title of this would be online dating, but I think the subtitle would be,

how long does it take to get to the dick pic? Question mark, exclamation point, smiley face emoticon no hashtag hashtag about it's always too quick boys so what here's what i wanted to bring up because i was talking to my friend anna about this and we were like we kind of would love to like make an educational website in which people would sort of write in their experiences of like online dating and how inappropriately quick it often happens that a man will send you a picture of his penis. I'm absolutely serious.

Really, really? That's why I brought it in, you guys. So here's- Have you had this happen to you? Absolutely. And I'll just, here's one for you. Here's a gift for you. I'll give you one. And then I'll say what we sort of wanted to do a site, like make a website that was like, you know, how long had you been chatting? What happened right before the dick pic got sent? What was your reaction to it? And, you know,

and then like, and use it as an, as you know, like at the, at the end of the, of the site, you know, it would be like personal stuff, but it would all be fit into it. And the end of it, it would basically say, listen, gents, in general, we don't want it. 99.9% of the people are not turned on by this. I think the greater topic here is actually what I find very, very interesting on an online medium of dating is that the way that men are turned on and what they call romance and the way that women are turned on and what they call romance are in direct opposition to each other. And sometimes it gets real funny. Break it down more. I'm going to break it down. So for me – I mean, it's fascinating it down more. I'm going to break it down. So for me, here's-

I mean, it's fascinating for me too, because I'm married 17 years now. That's right. I'm 18 years. So the whole world just like is, I have no exposure. Oh, it's totally fascinating. And that's where I've landed. Mazel tov. Married for 10 years.

That's right. That's right. Oh boy, I love this world. Have you experienced this yet? A little bit, right? I mean, not online. I have not been sent a dick pic. I've attempted online dating a tiny bit, and I've decided I don't have the time for it.

I'm just going to throw myself out into the world. It gets real interesting. So here, let me break it down for you, and I'll do it quickly because we're doing three minutes in quotes. So here's the me break it down for you and I'll do it quickly because we're not, you know, we're doing three minutes in quotes. So here's the brief of it. Here is what I and I think in general, most women, if they're not just looking to hook up with someone, all right, so let's just look at someone who's actually looking to date someone. What I think it is that we find romantic slash sexy.

We connect with someone. There's a connection there. Maybe there's a conversation that starts. Maybe we get asked out for coffee. You know, we go from there. Maybe we go meet someone for coffee. Maybe we go see a movie. We do like to see when we see online profiles.

You have to be attracted to someone. It's important. It's not that the visual is not important. It is very important. It's not that the visual is not important. It is very important. However, it's a combination of that visual and wit, conversation, courting, wooing, whatever it is, we take a while to get to know people. And that part of what it is, I think, that really drives us and really turns us on is the very act of getting to know someone. And that's romantic to me, is that conversation, is that dance. I think what I see in a lot of the men that I begin to chat with is that their desire to go to the sexual immediately, even if they're looking for

someone for long-term dating, their portal towards that is in some ways the sexual. It's something tactile or it's very visual and it's immediate. And it goes immediately there as a portal to romance, to getting to know someone. I think in some ways a lot of the men I chat with, their vision of conversation has to do with a combination of the written word and the visual. And has to do with a push towards sexuality in a way that I often find very inappropriate for a very long time. That's breaking it down. Now, if we go to the dick pic, because I find this really interesting, because I find it to be totally inappropriate and real inappropriate when you don't know someone. But here was a recent one for me. So there's a picture of a guy, and I don't usually click on these, but it's just his chest. It's just a chest pic. It's like

ripped chest. And I think he flirted with me first and then i sort of flirted back and we're going back and forth and i was like you know we started like actually a pretty interesting conversation right he was like give me your email let's chat more i was like okay we start chatting i was at home one night sick i think so i was like sitting in front of my computer doing not much of anything we start chatting and the and the chat is interesting it's about our histories and our lives and we're starting to get into really interesting conversation. At which point I say to him, hey, could you – I'd love to see more pictures of you. And his response was, oh, cool.

Okay. Here's the rest of that pic. Right? So it's a picture of just his chest. The rest of the pic is actually – I feel like there was music I should have entered and gone, da-da-da-da. The rest of the pic is like his shorts being pulled down

and his erect penis, right? To which my response was, thank you. I actually meant pictures of your face. But immediately there we were. There I was. And it's sort of like, well, like, you know, and then, I mean, I'm not offended by it. It's just, interestingly, what it does for me is it totally turns me off, right? So that's a fascinating thing, which is that for him, that which is a turn on, totally turned.

And it was actually a pretty sexy conversation until that happened. And then the dick pic came out and I was not I did lost interest. Then I just was like, well, that's that's, hey, that's nice, buddy. I mean, I'm not even sure really how to respond like nice stuff. Can I see your face too? Hey, buddy, that's a nice package. So tell me more about where you're living. I mean, you know, where do we go from there? It's not sexy. It's not interesting. It totally turns me off.

And I think, I don't know, I would wager it pretty much always does unless you're in a relationship with someone. The only time when I was doing that with someone when it was remotely sexy, we were involved. And it was beautiful. And it was part of an interaction that had already existed. Did you, I mean, curious, mean, where do I start with this? Yes. And let me just say, you're welcome. How serious do I play?

And can I just say, this is your fault for asking me to come do this. You asked for it, buddy. Except for responsibility. Okay. Did he ever send you a picture of his face, by the way? I did. I did. Then I got a couple of pictures of his face thereafter. Right. I mean, what would be curious would be like, assuming that you continue online dating, assuming that this apparently is a pattern with you, and I'm going to assume also that it's not just you. Right. And by the way, I am talking to a lot of different people. And yeah. Interesting that, you know, if it happens again, or, you know, kind of like respond and say, I'm just curious, like, and I'm not being hostile, but I'm just genuinely curious,

what made you feel like this was the appropriate next response in the conversation? That's right. Well, I did have something with someone actually pretty shortly thereafter, someone I was having a lovely back and forth with, who then asked me the question, so do you like sex? In the middle of a like, hey, what do you do? Well, here's what I do. So do you like sex? Of which there's no actual response to that. Who's going to say no? Nobody. But who's going to say yes, nobody. There's no response to that question. So I responded by saying, it's too soon to ask me a question like that. And I'm going to go ahead and ignore it. And his response was, oh, I'm sorry about that. But that happens. Actually, that happens frequently stuff that's that's the dick pic doesn't happen that frequently,

but inappropriate ovations of sexuality happen, like very quickly and very inappropriately, I would say, all the time. I would say like half the men I'm chatting with actually just really want to have coffee and get to know me. And the other half are like, so what are you doing right now? You naked? The amount of times I get, oh, you're home. You naked? It's kind of like, nope, I'm actually watching tv in my sweatpants with my glasses on dickhead yeah do you think it comes maybe also from it being a cold medium that because the

medium itself is cold instead of going for literal coffee like when to me that's like a i mean you're right there the interaction happening. But because it's a cold medium, you're immediately like your responsibility level goes down. And what you are perceiving as happening could be nothing about what's actually happening. And not meaning you, Gabra. I mean, you as in the two people who are having the interaction. Because this fantasy can be happening over here. And then this fantasy can be happening over here. Absolutely. you, Gabra, I mean, like you as in the two people who are having the interaction, because this fantasy can be happening over here and then this fantasy can be happening over here. Absolutely.

And it's even, it's met that dichotomy between the sexes is even met harder in that situation because it's, there's no, the connection is really small. Also, there's no, I mean, there's no nuance when there's no vocal element to the conversation. So you lose like 80-90% of the actual communication. But still, to me, that doesn't forgive. It doesn't make up for it.

Okay, so there's no nuance. So you lose a lot of the information of the conversation because it's just digital. It's words on a page. So you can't get, and that's why emojis and emoticons were all invented to try and add some of that. And they do it a teeny bit. But still, even given that, I can't imagine a point in my life, my younger life, even when I was dating where I would have even like remotely thought those questions were okay. No, I know. It's pretty amazing, right? And it's not that I'm, I mean, I'm an introvert. I'm not socially gifted.

I'm not, I'm not comfortable. So it's not that all of a sudden I just, you know, it was, it's, it just doesn't. Come into your sphere. No, I know. So it's really hard for me to understand like how those conversations would unfold on a regular basis. That's right. Well, I will say this because this might illuminate it a little bit. Here I was having a wonderful back and forth with someone recently who is a Harvard graduate student, good looking as anything, around my age, early 40s.

And we were having a charming back and forth to which I said, you know, I'd really love to meet you. And I have some time off and I might actually drive somewhere near to you. Could I even meet you and blah, blah, blah, we're going back and forth in this and that. Something again, turned a little bit to didn't quite get to the sexual exactly, but it started to turn that way. It was getting a little bit late at night and we're texting and it started to turn back to him saying like, I love the way you look in these mini skirts. And I, you know, like, look, and I finally, I didn't respond to a bunch of messages. The next day I wrote to say, you know, I'd love to hear your voice. Could we talk sometime?

And he sent a smiley emoticon and never contacted me again. And so I think there's a separation between fantasy and reality. So much anonymity in it. And that's what's going on. Yeah. Because I was like, and at this point, I don't expect anything from anyone. You know, I start up things with people all the time. And I've also dated some very cool people. You know, people who haven't worked out as a long-term thing.

But I've actually met lovely people online. But there's a weird filter you have to walk through first of like you first have to sort of meet them, which usually happens through email, maybe then text, maybe then a phone call, and maybe then a cup of coffee, right? And I always try to keep it to something like that because I made the mistake of doing things like dinners or drinks or that never works out. The cup of coffee is really what you want. And the few times that I've tried to do the internet dating thing, I've done close to no communication, gone for the coffee. Yeah, probably smarter. No, you don't get my phone number. You don't get my email. You don't get to text me. I'll meet you

and have coffee with you because it's just like you saw a picture of me. I saw a picture of you. You've seen some of the things I'm interested in. Just like if we were at, those are the things you want to know when you saw me across the coffee shop. That's right. In reality, you know, in the way that people used to date. And that's as much as you're going to get. And so because it's hard for people apparently to get up and go across the coffee shop and actually sit down and be like,

hey, you're cute because the chance is I could have somebody, I could have a different sexual orientation, I could have all these things, and then it's an epic failure right away. Well, those things have been taken out of account, and then we just have the coffee. But the anonymity potential in the online dating world is fascinating to me. It is. And my friend said he's had the same thing where he's seen the same woman go by him on the street every day. And because of the fast internet dating one, Tinder. Oh, that's had the same thing where he's seen the same woman go pot by him on the street every day. And because of the fast internet dating one, the, uh, Tinder. Oh, that's right.

He'll be in the bar and all of a sudden she's texting him. And he said, it's so fascinating. Nobody approaches each other. Nobody knows how to approach each other or losing that ability. Maybe not everybody, but are losing that ability to get to Brad, like to make. Well, that's what, I mean, um, Sarah Tuchel wrote about this in, um, in, in her book. And she said one of the, maybe it was her, I can't remember. There's, there's research on, on that. That one of the things that's being lost, um, is that when

your conversation is like through texting or email, or let's take texting because that's as close to sort of real time as you can get. But just the fact that there's even a short amount of asynchronicity between the things and that there's a moment for you to form a deliberate response, it removes a huge amount of potential vulnerability. So people default to that. And in doing so, the more we do it, the more we train ourselves not to be able to handle vulnerability. So then what happens when you're in that real situation, you're probably like the more you do it digitally, probably the less likely you are to ever do it in real life. And now I'm just completely projecting that that may be a future thing. But to me, it makes sense.

And you get used to it not having to be vulnerable like that. Which is a bad thing for humanity. You feel when you are, like when you meet somebody just straight up normal, like the way that everybody used to and the way that people still do sometimes. Then you're sitting there and you're feeling like a clown and you're going to all your, you know, things that make you socially awkward and you're not used to feeling socially awkward. That's right. So it feels abnormal. That's right. When actually feeling socially awkward is really normal. Like that's a really normal thing when you meet your people is to feel weird and

kind of hyper aware of yourself and say things and have your foot half shoved halfway down your throat half the time and like that's really normal and when you're doing that more often you get used to feeling weird and those are the things that people connect through yeah like those are the most it's the vulnerable awkward like you know like those are the things that people connect through. It's the vulnerable, awkward. Those are the moments where people realize each other's humanity. And so when we remove that, we remove those moments. We remove those points. I mean, moments of vulnerability and true openness are the ones where magic happens in a relationship.

So when you remove that, what's the long-term implication? I don't know. We're in the middle of this right now. Anyway. That's a great wrap-up. That's a great question to that topic. What's the long-term implications? This is what this is.

That's what many people do. Are we over to you now? I think so. Okay. And I'm going to – I couldn't figure out for the third one. It's been really, I was like, oh, so many things. I'm not sure what to bring up, but I'm going to go off of this topic and to kind of take it from my last, the last thing I blogged about, which is the idea of how many times in a lifetime can you truly fall in love and and what and how does that change and is that possible and what also people define as um a loving compat like really truly compatible long-term relationship and what forms that kind of love because it's different than falling in, I think what we define as falling in love is one particular type of a thing, that first bit. But being in love, I think, is a different thing.

Do you think falling in love is replaced by being in love or is added to? I think being in love replaces falling in love at a certain point from my limited experience. You're talking about long time true love. You're saying how many chances do we have? Yeah, the true development of, because I think I fall in love with people in a manner of speaking, you know, a lot. But that, the thing that creates the real, the partnership, a partnership fall in love, that type of fall in love. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, you know, I sort of think, uh, uh,

if I were to give a practical answer, I would say, I think we each get more than one and less than five. But if I was going to, but if I was going to talk from a different perspective. The number is actually pi. That'd be awesome. Einstein would be so happy. Six, seven, six, seven, seven, repeating. That's right. 2.14 repeated. But I think that if I was to speak from a different perspective, I would say limitless, right? Maybe depending on which day you catch me on, I don't know. That's such

a great question. I wonder the question all the time. I've had one real one in my life, you know, and a handful of other potential things, moments, almost. But I've had one real thing. And I pray to God all the time. The thing I say is, God, don't let me have had only one chance. It's like the genius thing of coming out of the gate, back to Whiplash, coming out of the gate with your best. Like the first book you write is the best thing you've ever written. It gets the best press. It gets the best thing and everything after it.

You know, it's the woman who wrote Eat, Pray, Love, that kind of thing. What happens when you come out of the gate with your guns blazing, right? So I feel like I came out of the gates with my guns blazing, right? And the one thing that people tell me all the time is, oh, my God, you are so lucky. I know I am. I appreciate all of that. Most people never get that in their life. And it's repeated to me ad nauseum.

And that's part of where the larger question of that comes from. And because I was speaking with somebody who asked me really honestly, and it wasn't about me, it was about themselves, who said, but do you think it's really, like, can you really fall and have that partnership, that deep blending with another person, a soul, you know, that idea of soulmate. Is there one or is there? Yeah.

Yeah. Pie. Is there pie? I love the idea. Is there one or is there pie? Yes. And just to give a little context in case anybody doesn't know your story on the thumbnail, you had that magic.

You had that absolutely like love of life and a soulmate and you were together for like a stunning 10 years. And then you lost him to cancer. And it's been a powerful, emotional, moving, tragic, all those things journey back. I've been together with my wife. We've been dating, I think, more than 20 years. Married like a long time now. And I think, I hope you feel it, Oscar.

I think we both feel that we're probably like every year we get deeper and deeper. That's a great partnership. That said, I don't know if I buy the idea that there is one person on the planet who's preordained for every, every person, you know, I think, um, I don't know, you know, I found somebody who's like, we're astonishingly, you know, God bless, knock on wood, whatever I need to do, you know, like it's, it's working, but, um, you know, I, I don't know, my sense is when you ask the question, you know, like, is there, can you find that again? I guess I can only answer from a place of hope, you know, and a place of knowing the person you are so astonishing.

I can't imagine somebody like you being on the planet and not being gifted with the opportunity to find it again mm-hmm I just and there's something wrong with that world this because yeah this is because our dear friends you know who value us and and stuff that's the react that's the reaction to that question inevitably is well but I love you and I see all your gifts. And so how could that not happen for you? But it's coming from a place of hope, not knowing. Yeah, I think it's so interesting. And the reason why I kind of love the question in a way is because my sister response was it was beautiful you're not who you were

that's so I know no that's true it can't be what it was right and I don't seek to find what I had I have what I had that will always be there always be part of me always everything but it's an interesting response to that as a whole because I don, none of us know inevitably if we're going to find that, but whether it's possible, I'm with you. I feel the same way where it's like, well, I hope, and I do actually believe that there isn't just one person that's preordained. Whether or not you'll find someone in the right timing, in the right all of that, that will match you at the time in your life that you're having is a whole another puzzle piece. I know. I think, you know, I always wonder what part choice plays in all of it also.

I feel like it's equal parts, you know, choice, luck, timing. But I think choice is huge, which is to say... Yeah, do you choose to love? Do you choose to love? Right. I think that's actually in some ways the biggest question because I was recently around someone who told me she had one relationship. She's now, let's say she's, I don't actually know how old she is, but let's pretend late 50s. I don't know. She had one relationship, a nice long one, really big one. And it ended, let's say, 10, 15 years ago. And she said, I knew then that that was it for me.

And I thought, that's a choice. And I asked her a lot about it because I was fascinated by it. I said, how did you know? Why? And she said, I just knew. I would not go through that again. And I thought, that's interesting because I feel like I've lived a very interesting journey over the past five years that has had in it a tremendous amount of loss, both in terms of a breakup,

but in terms of death, but in terms of almost death. And I got to tell you, I'd choose it with two feet. And so it encouraged me in some way talking to her because I thought, oh, God, that made me in some weird way. And she wasn't upset about it either. It was a very open choice on her part. It made me feel so much better because I thought, if I choose it, and if I'm open to it, then at some point, it's going to come my way. You know, love's going to come on this. And I think the same for you. You know, I see in you, even in the midst of grief,

you chose it. You choose love all the time, which is a very different choice than saying, now I close and I don't choose it. I just think that's a huge factor in all of this. Do you open or do you not open? Do you choose to open? Do you not choose to open? And that it's not finite. That's right. That is the love that that is.

That's right. And that the love that you will have is the love that you will have. Yeah. Like the love that you guys have had in the early part of your marriage to the love that you have now are actually two different kinds of loves because you're different than you were when you met. No doubt. I mean, to a certain extent, I think everyone's like, oh, it's work, it's work, it's work. Of course.

But to a certain extent also, I think you just, if two individuals honor their commitment to grow into who they need to be as individuals, And at the same time, you grow in a way which remains compatible with that other person. Some of that is choice. Some of that is work. But I think some of it is also chance. Yeah. You know, and so to a certain extent, you're like, we're blessed. Yeah.

We're incredibly fortunate that we continue to grow in ways which deepen our compatibility. You know, and do i have did i choose that no you know i think it just is some of it just yeah so we um moving from um dick pics to choosing love to manly beards to manly beards manly beards awesome song you got to wrap up with something like this but no, I'm so happy. Well, I was actually going to let you choose between Exploding Kittens and Manly Beards. No, no, no, no. Manly Beards is right. It feels right.

Yeah, no, we've taken a journey that, yeah, no, I think Dick Pick to choosing love to Manly Beards is in fact the journey of this conversation. That is the good life. I was just stunned. It was funny. I was in a – a friend of mine throws a conference in Fargo, North Dakota, which is like this amazing thing. Oh, right. AJ, Melissa, and Leon are dear friends, and they throw this thing called Misfit Con.

And I had the great pleasure of flying out there and giving one of the talks last year. And you hit Fargo, and you're like, what the hell am I doing in North Dakota? Right. Like a New York Jew in Fargo, North Dakota. Like a Yeti in the wilderness. Right. I'm like, hmm. But then actually it turns out it's a really, it's like a hipster town.

It's actually really cool, really bohemian. And I'm walking around and I'm instantly feeling inadequate because I'm the only person in town without a manly beard. Oh, it's so great. And I'm like, I'm literally, I'm in Brooklyn right now, like Brooklyn in North Dakota. And I'm like, so I was like, oh, I wonder. So I was just like, I jumped online and said, I'm like, I wonder what beards are hot this year. Like, here she goes. And I stumbled upon a website called beardinstitute.com. And which starts out with this lovely little ditty, The Manliest Cool Beard Styles of 2015.

And I'll read you the first few sentences here. Congratulations, you have a beard that evokes images of manliness and superiority to all those weaker men beneath you that can't or don't have the guts to sport a beard. Since time immemorial, men have grown beards as a way to show their strength, status, and power. Men that can grow a beard strike fear in the hearts of bare-faced baristas of the world. They secretly want what you have, and now it's time for you to take full advantage of your genes and decide on a style that works best for your face and structure. And remember, beards aren't just a symbol of manliness. Decide on a style that works best for your face and structure.

And remember, beards aren't just a symbol of manliness. They also serve well to keep you warm in the winter and protect your face from ultraviolet light. Wear your beard proudly. But don't forget that a well-groomed beard is the key to invoking envy and attraction in the fairest sex. Oh, this is wonderful. Wow. This is really, really, really wonderful. Wow. I feel like I have to view the beard differently now. I mean, I just formerly viewed it as facial hair, but now I suddenly, I love this idea of it being like a symbol of like,

take back the night, like take back your power men and put the beard on your, you are more powerful. No, it's, it's, it's just, that's fantastic. I mean, I've always been, personally, I've always been a fan of facial hair. I am a fan of the goatee. That's what I would choose if I was choosing. Almost always. I love the goatee. I think I've, you know, I'm a girl of the 80s. I fell in love with Tom Selleck as Magnum PI. So a mustache will always sort of win my heart. A full beard. No no i've upset erin oh god oh i'm sorry i've like ruined the afternoon was it was it the mustache or facial hair in general no mustache oh i do like a mustache oh dear god yeah you have something to say about this

apparently i i beards not not so much beards fine and i kind of feel like somehow this is linked into My Little Ponies. Oh, we're getting back to the bronies? We're coming full circle. Because I feel like maybe it's because they talked about the styling of said beard. Yeah. Right? And had I read on that page, it actually lists the top beard styles for 2015. Right?

You have to brush said beard. Of course. Right? My Little Pony always came with a brush. So I'm wondering. So you're saying it's the socially acceptable brony of the face. Yes. So we're going, we're going, it's like, you know what the title of this, the title of this podcast should be from beard to brony. I think that is the perfect place to wrap, actually.

I want to thank my fabulous guests, Cabra and Eric, for an unusual, wide-ranging, stimulating, and deeply thoughtful conversation. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Love you both. Delightful.

Hey, so I hope you guys have enjoyed this week's episode, Nine Things, with Gabra Zachman, Erin Moon, and Lil Opie joining in and just trying to keep up with these incredibly bright, funny, and wise women. If you like this format, let me know. I'm at Jonathan Fields on Twitter. Curious how you're feeling about it. We're always trying to tune into what you guys want, what's going to serve you best. As I said, this format doesn't replace the in-depth single interviews and conversations,

but we are exploring potentially growing the frequency of the show. This might be an interesting format to do it, our nine things format. And as always, if you enjoyed it, would love if you head on over to iTunes and just share a quick and honest review on the show. Share it with friends if that feels good. That's pretty much it for this week. I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

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