Good Life Project - A More Joyful & Less Regret-filled Way to Live | Leo Babauta

Episode Date: January 18, 2024

Feeling like you're always behind in life? Leo Babauta joins us to explore why we get stuck chasing unrealistic expectations, and simple mindset shifts that can transform your days into a graceful, meaningful, and fun game worth playing. Discover how to ditch perfectionism and embrace self-compassion to experience more ease and joy right now.You can find Leo at: Website | Instagram | Zen Habits Podcast | Episode TranscriptIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Suneel Gupta about discovering and following your dharma.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKED. Visit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

If you're right now trying to change your habits, the tripping point usually is there's a part where I'm feeling uncomfortable and just out of habit, I turn away from it. You know, it's like a little bit of anxiety or stress that comes up and it's like, oh, I don't know if I can do this. It's just uncertainty that's happening in that moment. And then we just habitually turn away from it. It's an invisible moment to most of us because we're invested in not seeing it. There's a lot of ways that that looks. So procrastination and avoidance, you know, just kind of quitting and giving up. But others are like complaining and being resentful. Perfectionism is actually a turning away kind of moment as well.

Indecision and getting stuck in overthinking. These are all ways to avoid just staying there in that moment. So if we know that that's happening and we're like, oh yeah, every time I get uncomfortable, I turn away. We can actually pause there in that moment and slow down with it. What if I could just stay with it for like two seconds, five seconds, 10 seconds? It's a training and we can actually develop the capacity to stay there longer. If you just do that, that would transform everything.

So do you ever feel like you're behind in your own life? Like you're not where you thought you would be by now, constantly trying to catch up to some imagined expectation or standard of where you quote should be, and then piling on shame and overwhelm along the way. So oddly, so often, even the most outwardly accomplished and successful people fall into this trap, one that's both of our own making and also the fallout of a culture that tells you to measure your life by things that are more or less destined to make you feel bad, no matter how good they are or could be, if you just got out of your own head. If you freed yourself to make some simple decisions that would open you to the experience

of grace and ease that has been begging to let you in for years, but you've been blind to. Grasping without even realizing it desperately at measures and ways of being and seeing that keep us perpetually battling stress and overwhelm and futility and malaise, along with a constant feeling that life could be so much more without ever realizing how close we are to so much of what we dream it to be. So my question is, how do we step into a way of being and living with a set of simple shifts in perspective that could introduce so much more ease and grace and play into our days and sidestep so much regret, not months or years from now, but literally right now, in this moment and every moment moving forward. This is what we're diving deep into in today's conversation with a dear friend from way

back in my blogging days, Leo Babauta. So Leo has spent his entire life thinking, writing about, running experiments, and guiding the work and life choices and mindsets of thousands of people around the world in the quest to bring more simplicity and ease and joy into life, no matter what the world seems to be delivering up. As a longtime author and creator of Zen Habits, Leo has shared his wisdom on topics like simplicity, habits, mindfulness, and minding our inner demons, and leading a meaningful life with millions of readers online in his books, and now with listeners of his new podcast of the same name. In today's conversation, we explore this pervasive feeling of being behind in life, where it comes from, how to liberate ourselves from it, and how to

transform life into a game worth playing. And Leo offers really thought-provoking ideas on topics ranging from a completely different, highly accessible, and inclusive approach to simplicity, and how to reduce stress, the power of self-compassion, dealing with discomfort, to letting go of perfectionism and control, but it was his take on turning work and life into what he describes as an infinite game that has had me revisiting this conversation so many times over in my head and thinking about how to shift what I do and the decisions that I make in the name of literally transforming my work and life into a game. One that is so fun

and joyful and playful and meaningful that instead of trying to quote win and get to the end, I never want it to end. The ultimate goal being to make it so good we want to just keep playing for life. Imagine if we could do that. How much better would everything be? Well, you're about to find out. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X.

Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. I want to dive into some of your thoughts around simplicity and habits. But before we get there, you know, as we're having this conversation, we're heading towards

the end of the year. People will be listening in towards the beginning of a new year. Yeah. And so often we're reexamining so many parts of our lives. There's a lot of reflection that lives. There's a lot of reflection that happens. There's a lot of planning that tends to happen, but oftentimes sort of like an emotional judgment that drops into that process. And one of the things that folks often feel when they start to reflect on, well, where have I been not just in this past year, but like, where am I

in my life? And how much runway do I have left ahead of me and what haven't I accomplished is this feeling of being behind, behind in a lot of different ways in work, in life, in relationship, maybe even in health. I'm curious on your take on this. I actually think it's a fairly universal thing. At first I thought it was just me and then I started working with clients and every single person had it. I started writing about it and people thought like I was writing directly to them. So yeah, no, I think it's such a pervasive thing. And it's such an interesting thing when you get curious about it. It's like this feeling of being behind. It's like, what are we behind? If you really look at it, it's like something that we have imagined that we where we should be whether it's like i should be

further along on my journey towards fitness or finances or you know whatever it is or you know i should be on top of my tasks and all of my emails and all of my messages and it's like well whoever said that we should be in these places and we start to examine that it's like we have made up these ideas of where we should be and so then we have some judgment for where we are and then it's just like we're constantly trying to catch up to where we should be and that line is always moving so you can't ever get there and so it's like this game that we've made up and it's like who made up this game and it kind of sucks it's not a not a fun game. We're feeling like we're drowning, like we're underwater and trying to just get our head above water all the

time. And I was like, that's kind of a sucky game to play. And so I like questioning that game and then saying like, what's the game that I actually want to play? What would be more meaningful for me, more fun, bring more like joy and sacredness and just purpose in my life? So that's where I like to go is like, what game do you want to play instead? I like it as an open question, not like I have the answers. I have some ideas about that, but just being in that open question, like questioning the old game that you've played, I think can be a powerful thing.

And the rules of that game that we've been playing, they're basically, as you described, it lessened until we questioned it and asked ourselves, are those actually the rules that we value personally? We're always playing somebody else's game. And it's pretty much impossible to ever feel like you're present and engaged on where you need to be when you're playing someone else's game by their rules. I remember someone once sharing this story where if you ask any given person, how much is enough? And they would ask you, the wealthiest person in the world, the most accomplished person in the world. And the answer would be just a little bit more. Wherever I am plus whatever. Right. And then you make your a hundred million dollars. Well, is that,

how much is enough for you? Is that enough? Just a little bit more. You like run a marathon, which you've been like aspiring to for 10 years and you do it. Like, was that enough? Just a little bit more, like maybe one more, like a harder one, because that was flat. It was too easy. I feel like we've lost the ability to have genuine, appreciative perspective on what we have done. And we focus so much on what we haven't. So that question that you asked, what is the game that I want to be playing, I feel is such a great seed to plant, especially in this moment in time for so many of us. So if I reflect back to you, that question, how do you start to answer that for your own love?

The way I like to answer it is, it's a game with ever-changing rules, the game that I want to play. We could play a game where it's like fixed rules and we'll play that for life. But I like the idea of a infinite game. I don't know if you've ever heard of that term. There's a book called The Infinite Game. The goal of the game is to play as long as we can. So if you and I are playing

a game right now on this podcast, it's like, why limit it to a certain thing? What if we could just play and have fun and be engaged? So that's the game that I'm playing on a daily basis with my family, with my friends, with my team members, with my clients. What's the rules of the game right now that would have us have fun, that would have us do something engaging? And then meaning is another part of that. For me, I need to put meaning into it. So it's like, we could just play a meaningless game. And it's like, okay, that's fun for a little while. But unless there's some kind of deeper purpose or meaning behind it, then I lose interest. For me, part of the game needs to be fun and play and a sense of curiosity, but also a sense of meaning. It's like, am I doing this for a greater purpose? Does this make me feel filled up? Am I loving the contributions that I'm making towards others? And so I think that's actually a big problem is we feel a lot of meaninglessness in our

lives on a daily basis. It's like, okay, I'm just kind of spinning my wheels here, like trying to play that game of catching up to this always moving target. But what if the game that you're playing had as its core a rule about like looking for meaning and then having fun as you do so. How that plays out on a daily basis is an interesting question. I might wake up and I'm like, okay, what's the game I want to play today? But I know it's going to have meaning. I know it's going to have a sense of play and curiosity. So I like the idea that you could reinvent that on a

daily basis. Give me some examples here. If we talk about take any given day, you wake up, you open your eyes in the morning, you're like, all right, I really want to get away from this notion of assuming that there's an end point, which is enough, which is the quote win. But also, I just want to keep this game of life going for as long as I can in the most engaged and enjoyable and meaningful way I can. If you look at any given day, when you look at it just in your life, what are some of the choices you make or some of the things that you might say yes or no to in order to help sort of like actualize it? Let's see. We'll take work and fitness as two examples. Because I think those are things people are thinking about around the New Year's time. There was a time recently, actually, a lot of times recently where I'm feeling a lot of resistance.

So I'm like, ah, there's something that I really want to create. And I'm just really resisting it. One way to play with that. Well, the old way would be like, I just need to force myself to do it. And it's like, I'm behind on it and I don't feel like doing it. And I'm just going to like course myself. It's not a fun game. So another way is like, okay, well, if that's what I'm resisting, like maybe there's a way to bring others into it and play with them. And so I might get on a call with others and like, like jam on it. And so that could be a way I could also find ways to like, turn it into like more fun, play some music, like dance around as I do it. You know, you could just kind of make up little games, like, let me see how much I can get done in 10 minutes, that kind of thing. The game I've been playing lately, the way it looks for me

is like, let me go deeper with it and like try and find, it's almost like finding your spiritual path in the midst of your resistance. I find that really fascinating. It's like what spiritual meaning is there here in the resistance itself, which is a, like a wanting to turn away from something, but also like a tightness in my body and like a way that I'm relating to something. And so I like look at that and I slow down with it. And I really look at the spiritual like message that I'm getting from my own resistance. So I find that fascinating, but there's a lot of ways that it's looked recently. And so I slow down with it. And then I start to find connect back to the meaning behind it. Like it's not just this thing I have to get

done today and check off my list. But it's like, this is a way to move forward on the thing that I think is going to like help possibly 1000s of others. And that lights me up. It's like I start to reconnect to that. So that's some stuff that I've been playing with around work. And then fitness, what I've been doing is I was like, fitness is necessary and important and sometimes just boring. Like I was like, go out and like run for 30 minutes. It's like, okay, let me get this over with. So I don't like that. That's kind of a boring game. So I've done lots of things to like play with and make it fun. But lately, what I've been doing is I do a 33 day challenge with my wife and kids, a fitness challenge. And we have like a little WhatsApp group. And we post every day,

what did you do? Or, you know, today's a rest day, or, you know, I went out and went for a long walk or did some yoga or whatever it is. We're like constantly encouraging each other and hearting each other's little accomplishments. And, and honestly, we've done probably like five or six of them this year. And I'm the fittest that I've ever been. So just turning it into this kind of challenge that I do with my kids and wife and like how we're like on this journey together and watching each other's progress and rooting each other on, that's a more fun game than the previous game. And I actually like, we'll do stuff together. We'll do yoga together or go play basketball together. It's a lot more fun and I'm enjoying fitness way more than I have in,

you know, I don't know how many years. So that's like an example. Yeah. I mean, I love those. A common thread in both of those that you talked about is making it less solitary. Yeah. You know, so like, how do we make any particular thing first? How do we look at this not as a task or an objective or a have to, but as a game? Right. And then how do we redefine the rule so that they're bringing more joy and more meaning and more fun into it?

And it seems like one of the things that does that for you is, well, how can I not do this alone? Or bring more people that I genuinely want to be doing this with into the experience. And I wonder how many of us, if we ask that question, you know, like, how can I turn this into a game that I want to keep playing? How can I add more joy, meaning, and fun to it? And how can I reorient it so that I'm doing it less alone? Those three points or questions or prompts, I have to imagine would really powerfully transform almost anything. And like you just said, a lot of people look at exercise and they roll their eyes.

I know all the data. I know it's good for me. I know I should be doing it if I want to feel the way I want to feel and be healthy. Right. But it's just I can't figure out how to make it more joyful. And you're inviting them to say, well, what if you looked less at the activity itself and more of what you wrap around it, which is like a reframe that I think is really expansive. And the activity itself is another place, but I really love what you just expressed. I'll say something about doing it with others. So a lot of times people have a resistance to it, which I find fascinating. So I've been examining that. And the resistance sometimes is like, I should be able to do this on my own. I want to have to need others. And so it's like, I want to just be self-sufficient. It's a real value that we have.

And I think it's a little bit of a problem, like needing to be self-sufficient. It's like, why? Like, why can't we lean on others? Why can't we be in community and connection? Why can't we be, you know, together on a journey and supporting each other. And anyone who's had a chance to play team sports or do something with a group where you're all moving towards a common purpose, knows what that's like to have connection and a sense of teamwork, but also family as you do something. So I like to question that value. And then the other one is people don't like to be messy in front of others. It's like, I want to be like fully formed and like perfect. If I'm going

to do it in front of others, like I want to already know how to do stuff as opposed to like learning in public or learning with a group. And that's because it's really vulnerable to like be messy and still be in your process. And so I think there's a lot of growth to be had to like, being able to be vulnerable and messy in your process with others. It's a courageous thing. But as you do so, it's actually liberating not only for you, but for for the people you're with, because now they're liberated from the idea that they need to be perfect in front of others. They're like, Oh, look at, I remember actually giving a talk. Do you remember the first World Domination Summit in Portland? So I gave a talk on stage and I messed that up like in probably three or four different times. And the next person who was going to speak or she was going to speak

later that day, she said, I'm so glad I went after you because now I feel like I don't need to be perfect. And I'm like, awesome. If my messiness could liberate you, then that's an amazing thing. Yeah, it's such an important point. And I feel like so many of us walk around feeling like we need to sort of show this facade of having it figured out and being as close to perfect and close to having achieved all the things we're supposed to have achieved and showing up in that way, because that's what society expects of us. And that's how we become, quote, admired and embraced and accepted. That's how we find belonging is by showing up as that fully formed human being. All the data in the world shows that is 100% false. That is absolutely not how we feel accepted and invited and welcomed and embraced and

belonged and loved. It's just what you were saying. This is Brene Brown's work for so many years now that's been shown that showing up in all your humanity and your vulnerability, it's terrifying. And yet that is where we make the deepest connections in life because everybody's feeling that inside. And when you can relate on that subtext level of humanity rather than the superficial level of artifice, then really powerful bonds get formed that will never get formed. But for your willingness to surrender to who you really are and expose that to other people, that's where the magic happens. Yet we are so terrified of that. And I feel like for a lot of people, it never really goes away. Amen to everything you just said. Preach.

That was an amazing thing. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations,

iPhone XS or later required, Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is?

You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. You know, we've been talking about this idea of the feeling of being left behind or being behind in our lives, of embracing it as reimagining this as not a finite game that we're trying to win, but just this beautiful, open, expansive, never-ending game that we just want to keep playing. And how can we keep making it fun and joyful and meaningful to play? One of the things that tends to drop into this experience also over time is this notion of whenever we say yes to something that pushes us into a place of discomfort. And I know this has

been a part of your practice for as long as I've known you. You're constantly saying, okay, there's this thing out there, but I'm taking a step towards it and it's making me uncomfortable. Not necessarily physically uncomfortable, but psychologically and emotionally uncomfortable. We tend to recoil. And I know that you've written about this and talked about this and this comes up with you and clients on a regular basis. What's your take on what's happening here and how we can be better at this. It's such an important topic. This is actually right now a huge part of my life's work. So I love that you brought this up. So discomfort, this will play out if you're right now trying to change your habits. We talked about exercise,

you want to meditate, you want to journal, all of those kinds of habits. If you want to start to create those, the tripping point usually is what you're talking about is like, oh, there's a part where I'm feeling uncomfortable and just out of habit, I turn away from it. So in that moment, it's just like there's this moment where I'm like, oh, you know, it's like a little bit of anxiety or stress that comes up. And it's like, oh, I don't know if I can do this. And so it's just uncertainty that's happening in that moment. And then we just habitually turn away from it. It's an invisible moment to most of us because we have trained ourselves to, we're invested

in not seeing it. So we train ourselves to turn away. Actually, it's been something we've probably been doing since childhood. And by turning away, there's a lot of ways that that looks. So procrastination and avoidance would be some big ones, you know, just kind of quitting and giving up like, ah, this is not for me. I can't do this. But others are like complaining and being resentful.

You know, perfectionism is actually a turning away kind of moment as well. And so indecision and getting stuck in overthinking, these are all ways to avoid just staying there in that moment. So if we know that that's happening and we're like, oh yeah, every time I get uncomfortable, I turn away. We can actually pause there in that moment and slow down with it. And it's a very interesting moment because there's a thing in us that believes we can't do this. This is something we need to get away from. And the truth is it's actually not even that hard. If we could just slow down and be with it, it's like, oh, in this moment, instead of turning away from my discomfort, what if I could just stay with it for like two seconds, five seconds, 10 seconds. And we actually, it's a training and we can actually

develop the capacity to stay there longer. So that'd be one is just staying as a training. And if you just do that, that would transform everything. Because now, you know, if you're like trying to do some meaningful work and you're like, Oh, I need to go check my email, you know, I need to like, every writer knows like the urge to like, go clean your entire house instead of writing. I know that very, very well. My, when I'm writing a book, my kitchen is so freaking clean. I'm a declutterer anyway., so in that moment, if you could just stay with it, it would it will change. So you're going to start to open and open and open to that. But another piece of it is your attitude towards that moment. So instead of just staying and being like,

it's almost like, you know, sometimes we can just like force ourselves to stay almost like trying to like hold on to an electric fence for longer. You know, it's not fun, but we can like make ourselves do it. That's usually the attitude that people take with this kind of training. So first of all, it would take some breath. So some deeper breath to open you in that moment. And then just imagine that this was just a sensation of resistance that you can experience and even find some gratitude for and some love for. And just like, you know, if your little kid is,

you know, if you're a parent and you have a kid who's upset and you're like, oh, could I just be with that kid and bring some love to them? Instead of like, this kid sucks for being upset. Like, what if we could just like love them in that moment? And it's the same exact thing. Like right now we're feeling not upset, but stressed or anxious. Like, what if we could just love ourselves in that moment? Just feel some love for this, like, a little bit of discomfort. And it's honestly really small. We're not talking about, you know, if it's to the level of like, I'm going to curl up in a ball, like fetal position on the floor, that's too high of a level. So I would not recommend training at that level. If you're like, you know, this is going to traumatize me, you know, don't do that. If it's a level between like five and seven of discomfort,

I think that would be okay. If it's above seven, if you were talking about eight, nine or 10, don't practice with that. But if you can be like, you know, I can stay with this for a little longer and it's actually not that intense. You could actually bring some love to it, some gratitude. Like I said, I look for the wisdom in it and the spiritual message in it. But even if you could just be like, oh, what's interesting about this? What could I get curious about in this moment? It's honestly usually just a little sensation in the, let's say in the chest, like a little bit of a tightness, or maybe it's a little bit of a shakiness or tenderness. That's not that crazy. We can actually like be with that for the most part. And again, if it's really high, like go take a break, you know, take a walk, get a hug from

someone, like get on a phone with a friend, do whatever you need to do to support yourself. But if you can stay with it, if it's not that intense, you'll find it's actually not that hard. And it actually changes everything. Habit change, your meaningful work, all the things you're resisting and turning away from. And we're doing it constantly. If you have like a pile of things to declutter, it's like that pile. Usually it's a message that we have about ourselves. So it's like that pile means something bad about me and that makes me anxious and I need to get away from it. The same thing with your email inbox. It's like a big pile of things that mean something bad about you. You know, that thing of being behind, you're usually like not on top of things like you

should be. And therefore there's some meaning that that has about you. We make up some meaning about it and we need to then get away from it because it's like the worst thing in the world to think that we're worthless. So if we like remove that meaning, it's just a sensation in the body. It doesn't mean anything about us. Like a pile, it's just a pile. It literally has no meaning about you. And then we make up a story about it, and then that's where the sensation comes from. Did that answer the question? Yeah. It sounds like what you're describing is,

if I'm walking through it, okay, so you meet an experience where you start to really feel discomfort. And oftentimes we feel this in a very embodied way, like physically, like we feel it in our chest, in our gut, sometimes in our head and the back of our neck and our shoulders. So look not just for the emotional experience of I'm feeling uneasy, but also the embodied experience of feeling uneasy, because these are tells, like that's how we start out. And then what you're describing is, okay, so what if we actually, instead of trying to run through it or backpedal away from it, what if we just say like, what if I just sit with this and kind of slow down a little bit? And as you're describing, not a ton and not indefinitely for hours or days or months,

maybe just seconds or minutes. 10 seconds would be amazing. Which is kind of like exposure therapy to a certain extent. Exactly. Exposure therapy. Yeah, that's right. But then what you're adding in, which I think is really interesting, is the notion of inquiring into it and almost saying like, where's the hidden value in this experience? What's it trying to teach me? Beyond just getting more comfortable with this sensation and knowing that I can actually be here for a little bit longer, a little bit longer,

a little bit longer, is there some intelligence in it also? Like, can I learn from this experience along the way? And that feels really different because I think when we start to get to a place where we can inquire into it and say, what is this telling me? You know, now we're not just training ourselves to be more uncomfortable in this state, but we're actually deriving information from it that can help us

live better lives. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. One piece of information you can get from it is like, what am I making this to mean about me that makes me like react in a bodily way this way? It's like, oh, yeah, it means I'm crappy in some way. And we will resist looking at that because we don't want to believe we have crappy stories about ourselves. And yet all of us do. This is why we feel this way. Like, I'm like, I should be doing better. And so like, we have some kind of crappy story about ourselves. So like, highlighting that and looking like, okay, what am I making up to this to mean about myself? It's like, oh, this means I'm like weak or stupid or, you know, worthless, or, you know, like I'm going to be rejected and cast out by all of society. Usually some kind of apocalyptic thing like that is underneath all of it. And so like, oh, let me just kind of get curious about it. So that you can notice that the attitude that I have is like this,

ooh, it's an upward curiosity, not like, oh, I suck. So that's what we want to have is this kind of like, open, kind of like, ooh, that's interesting. Like how fascinating. And so we want to have that kind of attitude. So that would be one thing to look at. What information does it have about my stories, about myself, what meaning I'm making up about it? But another one is like, what kind of unknown am I stepping into here? And I actually think that's really fascinating. It's like, oh, I don't know what the outcome of this is going to be. And that's actually what I want. I want to be stepping into the unknown over and over and over again, because if I already knew the outcome, that'd be freaking boring. It's a boring game. It would mean that I'm already doing something I know how to do and I'm reliable to do and I'm not stretching myself. I'm not growing. It would mean that I'm not able to create new art in this moment or with this person or in this project, create something that's not already known known and so we want to be stepping into the unknown so you might ask yourself like what is this resistance telling me about the unknown

that i'm stepping into it's like oh i don't quite know how to do this dance with this person that's really interesting like this is a signal of my uncertainty and me stepping into the unknown my courage and strength and vulnerability. That's all embodied in this feeling right now. It's all encapsulated in it. So we could just kind of get curious about that. There's a lot more, but those would be a couple of places to look. Yeah, I love those. And those are really great prompts to start with. Part of what I think you're describing here also is finding the capacity for self-compassion and self-forgiveness, which I think so many of us struggle with. We can figure out how to forgive other people or

have compassion for other people. But when we reflect that back in ourselves, and not even necessarily about like, oh, I messed up really big or I've done something big and bad and wrong, but just for who we are and where we are in this moment in time, so many of us find so much struggle in forgiving and accepting that it's okay to be who we are right now and it's okay to be where we are right now. We can turn that forgiveness and compassion externally,

but to turn it back and reflect it back on ourselves, it's interesting to me that it's often so much harder to do that. Have you seen that either in your own life or with people that you've worked with? Thanks for bringing this up. This is something I'm really passionate about. For a long time, I knew I was not compassionate with myself because that was easy to see. I was unaware of how common this was, but I was working with people changing their habits. And I'm like, okay, here are the steps. Do A, B, C, D, and E, and you'll have it. That's what I did. And so just do it. And people weren't doing it. And they were struggling with it. And they would get to A and B and then not do D, E, and F. And I was like, what's going on here? So I get curious. And it turns out it's almost 100% because of exactly what you just said,

is that we are not compassionate with ourselves. We're not accepting of where we are in our process. We have no grace for ourselves. That is a learned behavior. It's not something that kids have naturally. We have learned to do it over the years. And the reason is that we think this is how we're going to get better. If we are hard on ourselves, you know, let's say our parents or our teachers were hard on us to like try and because of their fears that we weren't going to get better. They passed it on to us. And now it's like, oh, I'm not going to ever catch up to where I think I should be. I'm never going to like perfect this or be, be this fully formed human being

until I start to be hard on myself. And so if we ever fall short of our expectations, which is, you know, every single day, maybe all day long, we ever fall short of our expectations. We're always like, I need to get back to him or get up to my, where my expectations are. Otherwise I'm going to be a complete failure. And so I need to like be hard on myself, hard compassion. And I've actually asked people many times to like try compassion when in that moment, they will think that there's something wrong with it. They'll be like, okay, cool. That's a good idea. And then they try it. And they're like, No, I shouldn't do that. And I'm like, why? And they're like, well, then I'll never get better. If I'm a compassionate with myself, I'm going to like sit on the couch all day and eat potato chips and like never do anything in my life. And I'm like, huh, that's

interesting. And I'm like, so your theory, your working theory is if you are hard on yourself and not compassionate, things are going to change in the positive and you're going to be where you need to be. They're like, yeah. And I'm like, how is that working out for you? You've been doing it for 40 years. And they're like, well, it's not working out really well. So I invite you to ask yourself if you have that model, we usually don't know we have that model. But if we have that model of like improvement, beat yourself up, be really hard on yourself, no compassion, no grace, see how that's working out. Look back on your data because you have lots of data on this. I can tell you, I don't only have my own data. I've been working with lots of thousands of people on this and the data is really clear. It does not

work. It's a broken model. It's one of the most fundamental models of our society and it's broken beyond belief. So the model that actually does work is compassion, like you're saying. And if you can actually start to have compassion and grace for yourself, you're like, oh, this is just where I am in my process. It's not that I should be over there. This is exactly where I should be because this is the place where I need to learn and grow. And, you know, maybe I'll get there pretty soon, but that's not where I should be and where I should be. And if I can give myself grace, actually what happens is my growth actually accelerates because I'm no longer, it's like if you stop beating yourself over the head with a bat, well, you don't have headaches anymore.

And all of a sudden you're more productive. So it actually removes a huge layer of suffering that we're adding on top of an already hard process. We actually accelerate our growth when we start to remove that. Yeah. Which I think is probably counterintuitive for a lot of folks. Yeah. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

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And you were describing a lot of people don't even know that they're operating under the model of self-aggression. Yeah. How do we start to see that actually, if we don't even know that this has been our operating model for the entirety of our adult life. And this is also probably a major factor in why we're not living the way that we want to live and feeling the way we want to feel. What are some ideas or prompts or questions you might consider to start to unpack? Is this actually my model? Just start to actually realize, oh, wait, this has been my operating system when you don't even really know that. I like to invite people to imagine they're a scientist and they're going to do an experiment. So the experiment that you're going to do is you set some structure for yourself. So for example, if it was a habit change, it's like, I'm going to meditate every day for 10 minutes a day as soon as I wake up and use the restroom. So it's really a simple structure.

You set a reminder, maybe four reminders, and then you log it every day. And what you want to log is not only did I do it or did I not, but there will be a day when you don't. And what happens in that day? Because that's actually the purpose of the experiment. It's not like, oh, I want to get 100% success rate. If you choose an experiment where you get 100% success rate, you're doing something you could already do and you're not really growing. So you want to choose something where it might not be 100, might not even be 80%. Maybe it's a 50% success rate, you know, 60, 70%. Maybe it's less. If it's zero, you chose too hard. So like, let's shoot for somewhere between 50 and 70. But on the days where you miss, usually people are just like, I missed, therefore I suck. You're like, they just

come to a conclusion. And that's the end of the story. There's no curiosity beyond that. And so I really encourage you to on the days where you miss, what happens? I feel discouraged. I feel deflated. I feel like this whole thing is pointless. I feel, you know, whatever it is that you feel. It's like, okay, what are you doing at that point to like deal with this? Well, I just got to start again, like do better this time. And there might be like, is there any harshness there? You know, is it like a loving voice or like a harsh voice? And usually it'll be a little bit of a harsh voice. Like you need to like do better, just do it this time. Or it's

just like, ah, forget it. I don't want to do it. And so is that like a encouraging, loving voice, even if you're just letting yourself off the hook? Or is there like this kind of defeatism that we're feeling like this kind of attitude of it? And so just really examine that and what you'll find. And actually, I encourage you to do this with others and talk to them about it because you'll start to find some common threads. The discussion is important. And if we just do it ourselves, we always hold ourselves accountable. We won't want to take a look at this because it often feels kind of sucky. So doing it with others and having some accountability, but more importantly, having a discussion about it.

Because then you start to uncover the commonalities and you're like, oh, yeah, wait, I do that too. And you'll start to learn more about yourself through that. Yeah, I love the idea of normalizing that through conversation too. And it goes back to the early part of our conversation. But there's one thing that you shared along the way there that I also want to, I want to drop into a little bit more, which is the notion of if you're picking a habit, whatever it is, you know, a behavior of not actually picking something that you are fully comfortable that you'll be able to do a hundred percent of the time, which is generally what we try and do. We're like, okay, so what do I know I will be 100% able to do no matter what? This will just be easy for me because then I'll be able to feel good because I get to check the box every day. But what you're suggesting is that we're also simultaneously, we're getting the momentary dopamine hit of checking the box, but we're also cheating ourselves of something along the way.

Yeah, this is a really interesting one. So people who come into my, my programs, let's say it's, you know, I have a nine month coaching program or this monthly kind of a program where you change a lot of this stuff. A lot of times people don't come into it because they're like, ah, well, I'm going to, this is another thing where I'm going to pay. And I'm not really going to fully use it and really fully show up. And I'm like, well, what if you, what if you just really committed yourself to it? Like what would happen? And they're like, well, I might not really a hundred percent do it the way that I should be doing it. And I'm like, it's just going to be another place where I feel bad about myself. And I'm like, well, yeah, I mean, most likely you're not going to do it a

hundred percent the way you think you should. And I'm like, that's because you're, this is a growth process. If you came in and you paid money, and then you did it 100% the way you think you should have done it, you didn't actually need to pay that money. You're already done. You've chosen something that's doable because that's safe. And so you're going to choose something where you're like, I'm going to be really good at this. And what I invite people is come into this with the idea that you're going to be choosing something where it's a stretch. It's going to require growth. And if it requires growth, it means you're going to mess up a bunch of times. That's how growth looks. It's like you set something

higher than you can actually reach. You reach for it, you fall on your face, and then you learn something about it. And you just keep doing that until you've learned what you need to learn. You've transformed the way that you show up. And now you can actually do that. And now And you just keep doing that until like, you've learned what you need to learn. You've transformed the way that you show up. And now like you can actually do that. And now if you just keep choosing the same thing, that's going to be boring. So now choose another thing that's going to be higher. That's the growth process that you're going to be bringing yourself into. And that's what you lose out on is this being willing to be in this process of constant transformation, constant growth beyond my current boundaries. Yeah, and if you at the same time,

as we talked about earlier, invite self-compassion and forgiveness into the process, then I think it allows you to step into any experience where growth is on the table, where you're going to, there's gonna be struggle. You're gonna fall down along the way. Like there's just no way to avoid it. If there's an opportunity for growth,

there will be opportunities to stumble as well. You can't have down along the way. Like there's just no way to avoid it. If there's an opportunity for growth, there will be opportunities to stumble as well. Yeah. You can't have one without the other. But if you build that self-forgiveness and that self-compassion into it beforehand and kind of keep dipping into that the way we've been talking about, I think it makes us more willing to do it also. Such an important part of the process. Yeah.

No, it's just, we're not coming from this place of self-aggression and perfection. And I just want to be able to check the box that says I did it perfectly rather than saying, well, what if there's so much more that I could discover and learn about myself and the world around me? But it is scary. It requires a willingness to be vulnerable with ourselves. And if you invite others into it, as you've shared a number of times, the vulnerable around others too. And I think that's why so many of us struggle with it. Yeah. And you know, what's really interesting about that is like you said, I just want to, a lot of times we come into it with, I want to just check off this box and say that I did it.

And like, why? The reason is that we want something that is self-affirming. So if I check off this box and I did it perfectly, then I feel good about myself. And so what you'll notice there is that these endeavors are like these self-seeking, some kind of self-affirmation, which I think is really beautiful. But the problem with that is then we're going to only choose things that it will actually affirm us. And we're not going to choose things where we're going to fall on our face because that's not self-affirming. And so if the lens that we look through is like, how can I start to feel good about myself by what I'm doing externally, then we're going to only choose things that we can do well. And every time we fall on our face,

we're going to retreat from that and look for something else where we're we can do well. And every time we fall on our face, we're going to retreat from that and look for something else where we're going to do well. And if we remove that, and it's like, actually, the self affirming thing is something I already do internally, like you said, with the self compassion is like, I constantly like reaffirm like that I'm a good person, deserving of love, because I'm giving myself love in this moment with the self compassion, then the external thing that I do doesn't matter in that regard. I can do something and fall on my face and I don't need that to affirm me. The thing I'm doing to affirm myself is already part of that internal process that you said we start with. Or we can learn that as we go. So it's not like we need to have that

perfectly done before we start. We can start to develop that self-affirmation, that self-compassion as we create this, as we go through this process. Yeah, I love that. It's like if we spend all of our time only saying yes to things that affirm who we already are, then we leave no space to say yes to things who would allow us to become who we might become. Yeah. No space for discovery and growth. Which is, at the end of the day, that's so much of a life well-lived. It's not stasis, it's growth. One of the topics, and I want to drop into this a little bit with you,

because I've seen the evolution of thought with you around the topic of simplicity also. And a lot of what we're talking about, well, it seems like there's a lot for me to think about here. And like, there's, it's complicated to this. I have to set up X, Y, and Z and community and this and that and goals and structure and systems and process. And I've known you long enough to know that like on any given day, if you look at your life for the most part, it's a pretty simple way to live. Like you've been so intentional about really saying to yourself, you know, like, what is the simplest way for this to unfold? And in the early days, I feel like you were much more focused on sort of like capital and minimalism. And like you said, you know, like there was a whole productivity thing, which was really like built into you. But

I also feel like your notion of simplicity and simplifying life has evolved in really meaningful ways. And I'm curious about your philosophy around simplicity now. That's such a fascinating question. Thank you for laying all of that out because, yeah, it has changed. In the beginning, simplicity was actually a lot like the productivity. It's like if I can remove everything extraneous from my life, I can have this beautiful, like simple minimalist life where I feel good about myself. And it also removes the

things that I like, I feel some stress about, like, you know, a lot of clutter or doing too many things. Like it gives me stress. And so I want to remove all the stress from my life. And I think there's something really beautiful in that. The problem that I found is you can just keep removing and removing and removing all the stresses in your life. And so what it means is that you start to limit yourself more and more. So you can't ever do anything that has like a lot of complexity or a lot of like abundance. You know, I worked on my own for a long time. So I'm like, I don't need to work with anybody else. I'm self-sufficient and simple and it's easier. And then I'm like, well, I'm really limiting myself, like the impact that I can have on the world. So I started opening to working with a team and there's a lot of abundance in that.

So I've been exploring like, what does simplicity mean to me when we me when I'm in the midst of abundance and creation and creating like a bigger impact in the world? What I realized is that the simplicity doesn't have to look a certain way. Like it doesn't have to look like that beautifully minimalist home. Sometimes it can look like a mess. So imagine if you were like, I am creating something really meaningful in the world. And it means working with a lot of people and there's a lot of moving parts. And how do I find simplicity in the midst of that? And so for me, it often be coming down to like, what matters right now? What do I need to focus on? What do I care about? And so I can do something that has a lot of complexity, but really

pare it down to like, right now in this moment, like what matters? What am I showing up for? How do I want to show up? And I just start to slow that down. And so I create very complex things now, but in each moment I can start to simplify that. And I'm saying that theoretically, in reality, it's often like, I forget that a lot. But so that simplicity for me means a slowing down in the moment to the essential. And in terms of like how complex my work day is and my life is like, I like to have checkpoints where I stop, I start to reconsider things. I think the thing that I really love about simplicity is it has you question like what matters and what's essential. And so I like to just stop and be like, okay. And actually I'm doing that as we speak, as we record this, this is a part of the time of the year where I like to really reflect on my past

year and what's going forward. And I start to reconsider all of my priorities and I'm like, huh, is there anything that I need to let go of or that I want to let go of? Is there anything that I really want to boil down to like the really essential things for this coming year? I really just reflect on that. And you can do that on a yearly basis, which I definitely do. A monthly basis, a weekly basis, even a daily basis. So even like the end of each day, you might look back and you're like, okay, what mattered today?

What did I get caught up in that didn't matter? And like, what I want to learn from that? For me, simplicity is a, it's kind of like Occam's razor, where you're like, okay, it's not that this is a rule, hard and fast rule, but it's a place for me to examine what matters and what doesn't. So that's how I'm holding simplicity these days. There's probably a few other things I would have to say, but I think those would be the most important ones. Yeah. I mean, it's a really interesting shift because I feel like in the early days for you, it was a lot about complexity.

And now it's a lot about, it's more about meaning and presence, even in the context of complexity all around you. Like, can it be present? And is what I'm doing at any given moment, does it actually matter? And the idea of sort of equating that to simplifying or simplicity is really interesting to me because I haven't really thought about it that way before. Yeah. Another interesting thing about that is if we're adding a lot of complexity, sometimes

it's really good to question like, what's the why behind that? There's nothing wrong with complexity, but sometimes the complexity comes from a place of fear. And so you see this, if you look at software, it's really simple and like beautiful, or as like all of these like buttons that are like really distract you. And it's like, well, what were they thinking that made them put all those buttons there? Well, they're like worried that, you know worried that this or that, they wouldn't get the outcomes that they were trying to get. And so they're like, well, what if this? What if this?

What if this? And they started adding all these extra features on all these buttons. And it ends up being this huge mess. And I would say that all of us do that. If we're adding more and more, it's usually because I'm afraid that I'm not going to get the outcome I want. And so it's like, okay, looking at that fear is just driving the complexity. So I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with complexity, but it can be a good thing to kind of get curious about. It's like, okay, what's the fear that might be driving that? Or it might not even be fear. It might be like, in my case, what I'm striving, it is a sense of meaning. I actually care about what I'm creating and I want to create

something that's going to have this impact. And what that's going to require is more complexity than what I had before. And so, you know, that's not, it doesn't necessarily come from fear, but we could use it as a place to examine whether there is some fear there to like work with. And what's coming up for me as you describe this is a question, which is I'm wondering whether sometimes we unwittingly or unconsciously create complexity in our lives because it serves as a distraction from the things that we might have to actually face if we had a simpler experience of each day and we don't want to. So we just pile on complexity as almost like a coping mechanism to not actually have to sort of like deal with the things where if life was simpler, there's going to be more space for me to actually have to confront whatever it is in my life that I'm terrified of confronting. So we pile complexity into it because it forces

distraction from that. And it gives us things to point to. It's like, well, it couldn't possibly because there's X, Y, and Z going on right now, but not realizing that it's actually, and then we end up complaining about the level of complexity and stress that it causes, not realizing that we've actually created this entire loop of complexity and stress without realizing that a big part of it might actually be that if we distill things into a simpler experience with more space, then there are things going to bubble up in that space that we'll have to face. It can be confronting for sure. Yeah. So there's so much subconscious behavior that I

think happens around all the things that we've been talking about today. Yeah. I love that last statement, but I also, to address that, like how confronting it can be to simplify. One thing I really recommend for most people is do it in layers. Like you'll get confronted at a little bit amount that you can actually face. So if we're talking about like removing things and activities from your life, you don't have to do it all at once. Just do it a little bit and then you'll get confronted at that level. And you just keep working with that at a level that you can actually work with. To speak to your last point, this is actually my evolution.

I think yours in a lot of ways too, is when I first started, it was like, here are the really simple tips for like how to do stuff. And it was just really practical, which I think really helps, but it was like, there was only one layer of depth there. And what you're saying is there's a lot of like psychological components behind all of this stuff is like, there's actually a lot more going on if we really start to work with this and get curious about it. That's the part that lights me up these days. You said there's a through line through my work, and it's that I've been talking about the same things, some of the same things, but I've been

looking at what's behind all of that more and more. Come talk to me in another 15 years, and we'll see where I am there. We'll definitely have that conversation. That feels like a great place for us to come full circle as well. So in this container of good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? What comes up for me is if we like simplify our lives down to like what means the most to us, it's love for myself, the self-compassion, a sense of connection with others and play with them, and then some kind of sense of meaning. And also go out for a good 30-minute run. Thank you.

Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, safe bet you will also love the conversation we had with Sunil Gupta about discovering and following your dharma. You'll find a link to Sunil's episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers, Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields, editing help by Alejandro Ramirez, Christopher Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you found this conversation interesting

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