Good Life Project - A.J. Jacobs: On Faith, Choice, Writing and Family

Episode Date: June 2, 2015

What if you could instantly trace your connection through an online family tree to nearly anyone on the planet?Put another way, what if every person alive was your cousin?Enter A.J. Jacobs, the master experimenter and mega-NYT best-selling author known for running crazy, year-long experiments on himself.In the past A.J. has spent a year living every rule in the Bible (in NYC), tried nearly every health and fitness tip ever offered in an attempt be the healthiest person on the planet, and even read the entire encyclopedia. Each adventure became a book, and together, they became a fascinating life.In our conversation, today, A.J. outlines his newest, boldest experiment, and this time, he's making it about you. Jacobs is on a quest to build the biggest family tree in history, then invite everyone on it to the largest family reunion . . . ever.In fact, every person on the planet is invited to his Global Family Reunion on June 6th in NY. And, since we're all his "fave" cousins, A.J. has graciously set up a special link where you can register for 25% off.In this week's episode, we talk about what inspired A.J. to run yearlong experiments with his life, then turn them into books. We explore how showing we're all related is really about a much bigger mission to cultivate tolerance and understanding. And we also dive into the creative process, the writing life, habits, the downside and upside of choice, fear of rejection, faith, atheism and so much more. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

That's the idea, that it shows we're one big family. And that cliche is true. We're all one big family. And maybe if we see this more concretely, that we'll be a little kinder to each other. That's sort of the idealistic hope. What if every person on the planet was actually your cousin? What if there was a single family tree that existed online where you

could literally go there, punch in your name and a little bit more information and track how you were related to almost every person on earth. That is the absolutely gargantuan task that acclaimed author AJ Jacobs is working on right now. Well, he's actually building the biggest family tree that's ever existed in history. Now, there's some really interesting benefits and scary things about this. For example, if you wanted to get in touch with somebody famous, it might be a little bit easier if you could kind of call them up and say, hey, you're my cousin, we should hang out. Then again, if you're looking to get romantically involved with somebody, if everyone's your cousin, that might provide a whole different set of challenges. A.J. Jacobs is renowned for having done these incredible, intensive, year-long experiments that have produced books that have swept the mindset and the attention span of millions of people.

Really funny, really informative. And in fact, this summer, he's launching the biggest global family reunion in history. These are all things that we're going to explore in today's conversation. I'm Jonathan Fields. This is Good Life Project. If you're looking for flexible workouts, Peloton's got you covered. Summer runs or playoff season meditations, whatever your vibe, Peloton has thousands of classes built to push you. We know how life goes.

New father, new routines, new locations. What matters is that you have something there to adapt with you, whether you need a challenge or rest. And Peloton has everything you need, whenever you need it. Find your push. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the

first time in glossy jet-black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later require, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk. Let's talk a little bit about you and your journey in the world um you're you're a new

york kid yeah where'd you grow up i grew up right here in manhattan yeah where about what part on uh 82nd street between park and lex oh so you literally live with well across the park right yeah exactly this is my this is my area yeah what was uh so you grew up in the city then in the like 70s and 80s, which was a really different time in the city. What was it like growing up in the city around then? Well, I don't have anything to compare it to because I grew up here. So people talk about their backyards and I'm like, what's that? But for me, it was interesting just because there was so much stuff that I was able to

explore. I love to explore. So even in high school, I went to the Scientology Center, which is on 82nd Street between Park and Madison. And I just went in and I poked around, wanted to see what it was all about. You were just curious about what Scientology was. I was just curious. What's the deal with Scientology? Yeah.

And it was fascinating. I mean, I went I wandered away from the babysitter and wandered into L. Ron Hubbard's office. Did he seriously? The problem was he had been dead for like 10 years, but he still had this beautiful

office with, and he had a yachting hat on the table. That's too funny. Like it hadn't been touched in 10 years. It hadn't been touched. I asked them about it and they said, well, you know, in case he ever comes back and re-inhabits his body, we want to be ready. So for me, that was just, this is awesome. What a playground.

What a, so many amazing places to explore. Yeah. I mean, it is amazing. I grew up just outside of New York City and Long Island, Port Washington. So we would like, you know, when I got old enough, we'd kind of sneak out and jump on the train into the city without telling anyone and explore a little bit, go down to Chinatown, buy fireworks for a day or two. But it was always this.

And I remember back then coming in, actually, we would come into Times Square to get fake IDs. And we're about the same age, I think, a couple years older than you. And I remember going in there with a friend of mine who was a girl, you know, like 11th grade or something like that, or 12th grade, and freaking out when we got to Times Square. Because Times Square then is not like Times Square now. No, no, there was no Disney back then, no M&M stores. Yeah.

That was hardcore. It was a seedy, kind of like dark place, but that's where we went to get the ideas. So you're hanging out, and where'd you go to school? I went to college at Brown in Providence. Cool. What did you study there? I studied philosophy, which I'm glad I studied. It was not the most practical of uh areas

you know i got out and there were not a lot of jobs for philosophers at fortune 500 companies but but i do think it helped me learn how to think a little bit better i hope uh but and then the other thing i studied was intro classes i loved a a good intro class. Like the 500-person mega lecture? Yeah. I think I took every— What was it about it that you dug? I just love—I think there's something nice about being a dilettante. I think that word has a negative connotation.

But I think dabbling is great because I think a lot of the best ideas are interdisciplinary. And if you pluck something from one place and combine it with a totally different topic. So I am a big fan of going deep, but also going broad. You got to go broad as well as deep. Yeah. And you know, it's interesting. I think I so agree with you. It's funny. I'm remembering back to my not so illustrious college career at Binghamton back when it was called SUNYB.

And I ended up taking everything from like – I was a political science major, which was maybe like actually – nah, probably there was no difference in utility than philosophy at that point. It's like the default major for me. But yeah, I ended up taking everything from you know musical theater to earthquakes nice but but flashing forward you know when you think about where where ideas come from and i i'm a big believer in sort of like pattern recognition as a source for everything it's like the more data points you have the more pieces you can the world you can draw from to try and see things that other people don't see. Right. And you've written a great musical about earthquakes, if I'm not mistaken. That would be coming next.

Damn, you've disclosed the topic of my next book. One of the great stories, one of my, from one of my projects, I read the Encyclopedia Britannica. Right, your first book, right? Yeah, that was my first book. And one of the great things I learned was about how some of the great thinkers used these ideas from totally different topics. Like Isaac Newton, the idea that he got the concept of gravity from a falling apple, that is not true. But what is true is that he was a scientist, but he got really into reading about alchemy, which was even then totally freaky, and all of his scientist friends were like, what are you doing?

You mean like turning lead into gold alchemy? Yeah, and magic. It was all about magic. And in alchemy, they talk about these magical forces that act on objects from afar. And it's just such a bizarre concept to someone with a scientific mind. But he was able to use that, and he's like, well, that's not true, but maybe there is this thing called gravity that acts on objects from afar. And he couldn't have made that leap without reading this weird alchemy stuff. So I encourage people to read the weirdest, farthest and broadest that they can. Yeah.

And just experience the weirdest and broadest and farthest things also in life. I so agree with that. So interesting to me, you brought up Einstein and, and, and alchemy. And I'm, I'm fascinated by men and women of science who are also deeply faith based,

you know, because it seems like such a contradiction to me. Right. But you see it, you know. And have you explored that at all or thought about it? I mean, the philosopher side of you? Well, I am. One of my projects was about the Bible,

and I'll just give you the quick background on that. And that came about because I grew up with no religion at all. As I say in the book, I'm Jewish, but I'm Jewish in the same way the Olive Garden is Italian, which maybe you are too. Pretty similar. Similar. But I wanted to find out about it. So I decided to live by the rules of the Bible. That was how I was going to learn about the Bible. So I did. I followed every rule that I could. And for me, I have a very scientific point of view. I almost worship science, which I know is a bit of a paradox. But I'm a huge fan. I think it's the best way to know about the world.

But at the same time, after this experience, I became what a friend of mine, he's a Lutheran pastor, he calls it a reverent agnostic, which I love. I think I started a Facebook page on it at one point, if anyone wants to join, reverent agnostic. Because my feeling is, I don't know if there's a God or not. I don't even know what that means. But for me, the idea of sacredness is wonderful. And sacredness originally just meant separateness. So the idea of taking something and making it separate and special, and that could be the Sabbath, you know, just taking one day and not working. It could be taking time before every meal to say thanks, not necessarily to God. I say thanks before a meal to the farmers who grew my asparagus and the truck driver

who drove my asparagus to the woman who sold it at the grocery. That to me is a wonderful concept. So I am a reverent agnostic. Right. Which, I mean, I think it resonates with so many people these days. It's interesting for – I'm working on my next book also right now, as I know you are at the same time. And so I'm doing a whole bunch of research on faith and sense of belonging. And the statistics on what's happening in faith pretty much in the Western world these days is kind of astonishing.

There's sort of like a mass abandonment of organized religion. And you want to kind of like what's driving that. And then there's some interesting research on whether people are abandoning the formal structure of faith or they actually not believe in God anymore. And the rate of abandonment of the institutions of religion is way faster than the number of people that are saying, well, I don't believe in God anymore. And the rate of abandonment of the institutions of religion is way faster than, than, you know, the number of people that are saying, well, I don't believe in God. You know, I think a lot of people are terrified of actually standing up and saying, well, no, I don't believe in the actual, the concept of God, no matter what, how, how you frame it.

But a lot of people are getting pretty comfortable walking away from the community and the structure of religion, of organized religion. Interesting. Well, for me, actually, there are positives to religion and huge drawbacks. I think the drawbacks are when you are so certain that your way is right that you start acting self-righteous and like, you know, fundamentalism. But the advantages are it's a wonderful way to provide a community. And, you know, there are studies that show people who go to church live longer. And they're happier generally. And they're happier, which I don't think has to do with the church.

It could be anything. It could, whatever community it is, it could be. In fact, there's an atheist club that I went to while I was writing my book, which was totally paradoxical to me because I thought, you know, the whole reason to become an atheist is so you don't have to go to church. But these people, every Sunday they go and they talk about atheism and what it means to them. So to me, that's the big of of religion is the community and and getting together and trying to do some good uh yeah i totally agree i think it's such a huge part of it i mean we're social animals we're just wired that way i think but i think part of it also in the kind i think that is sort of that's the container that's where everything happens

and then the notion of um and this which really ties into your book, which is there's a set of rules. You know the rules that you have to live by when you open your eyes in the morning and throughout the day. And so it kind of clears away a whole bunch of ambiguity and uncertainty. So it's kind of like, look, this is a situation. What's the rule that handles that? Okay. This is how I have to behave. Totally.

There's certainly, there is a lot. I'm all for freedom of choice. But there's also this idea of freedom from choice, which is, I think, underrated. Like when I was following the rules of the Bible and I passed a homeless person on the street who was asking for money, I didn't have to think. I was like, I have to give him money. I have to give him a dollar. And it was sort of relieving. And there are all these studies in the book, The Paradox of Choice, where people are happier when they have fewer choices. I still am a huge fan of choice, of course, but I like having some sort of structure. And that's

actually, I like having that in all of my books. I don't think I would be good at writing a novel because it's so unstructured. But I love, for my first book, when I read the encyclopedia, I had a structure. I had chapter A, chapter B, chapter C, and I could talk about the weird things I learned when I read about the A volume and, and what happened in my life. Right. So I'm a big fan of structure. And then within that structure doing a lot of, uh, uh, creativity.

Yeah. It's so interesting that you bring that up. Cause I'm, I've been dancing with that and trying to figure out how to structure like when I write something larger also. And it was interesting. So when I was writing the last book, I started out with a pretty,

you know, a big outline. I started with a small outline, made it more and more detailed, more detailed. Then I essentially said, okay, let me fill it in and make it and turn it into a book. And then I started having all these conversations with these just world-class creators, writers, artists, entrepreneurs. And I'm asking them, like, how do you do this stuff? Like how do you do not really good work, but how do you do great work? And almost as one, the conversation would be, well, you need to let go of the plan at a certain point, like the plan gets you going. Right. But at a certain point, the difference between really

good and great, you know, like jaw dropping is when you're willing to just let the final creation, whatever it is, whether it's a business or a book or a movie, when you let it take you where it needs to go as it sort of unfolds itself. All those assumptions you made in the beginning, some of them are going to be proven right and a bunch are going to be proven just totally off. And you have to be open to shifting gears. I think that's true. I mean, I personally, I like knowing where I'm going to end up, but then I like to take sideways to get there. And I have a friend who writes for The Daily Show with Jon Stewart, and I was talking to

him about writing comedy, and he said one of the most important things is to be able to surprise yourself while you're writing, which I loved, and I hadn't really thought about it. But since then, I'm like, that is good. So when I'm writing, I try to surprise myself. Yeah, that's so interesting. I read a book recently. Who was it? John Rady and forgetting the other gentleman who wrote it called Go Wild. But he's a lifetime journalist. And at the end of the book, there's a kind of like a little thing that he threw in there saying that when he looks at writing a book, he won't write a book.

In his mind, the only reason that he would write a book would be if the actual process of writing the book represented a substantial growth or transformation experience for him. Right. Along the way. Not just for other people who might read it, but like he wants to be transformed through the process of putting the book together. That's interesting. Well, that's the way I feel. It certainly goes along with, I mean, like your whole. That's what I do.

I take a topic that I'm interested in and I just dive in and it's like getting a master's degree every time I write a book. And I feel so lucky that I'm able to do this for a living and just, you know, dive in and immerse myself in whatever topic. So let's talk about how this actually became your living. So you're, you're hanging out in Brown, you're, you leave school at that point, do you start to end your, your studying philosophy? Are you starting to develop a Jones to write? Or is this part of you? Or is this something unfolds later? Well, I always wanted to write. Part of my problem, though, was,

I think I'm better at nonfiction than fiction. And I think I'm better at first person journalism than, you know, third person journalism. But I had a very boring life. My parents are very normal, delightfully normal. And I had, you know, my dad was not a spy or an alcoholic or a circus performer. So I had, I thought, well, one thing I, the only thing I can do is, is if I have a normal life, put myself in a very abnormal situation. Right. And then write about that, almost fish out of water. And so that's what I've done.

I put myself in these weird situations and see how it unfolds and what I learn and what I can take away and tell the reader. So what was your first sort of official writing gig? My first official writing gig. Well, I wrote for I was a freelance writer and I would write for anyone who would take me. I mean, I do think that's a lesson I try to tell writers who are starting out. Just, you know, don't be picky. I wrote for Dental Economics magazine. That sounds fascinating. It was. I'm sure if you're a dentist, it is, actually.

And you want to invest. Yeah. This is the magazine. There's like no other magazine that can touch it in terms of dentists who want to invest in stocks. So, yeah, I wrote about Dental Economics magazine. And then I eventually got to write for a small newspaper, which I think is good. Because to me, writing, a lot of writing is researching. And the more details you get, it's the more i this is nothing new but

specificity is just it's more interesting to say you know he ate a peanut butter and um he made an almond butter and grape a jam sandwich then he ate lunch you know the more specific you can get and that really taught me to get specific. So were you looking to really explore the journalism side of things? Were you drawn to that as well? Yeah, I loved journalism. But I was working at this newspaper, and then I worked a tiny, tiny newspaper in California, doesn't exist anymore. And then I worked at Entertainment Weekly, and from there I went to Esquire, and that is where I started writing books.

And that's my true love. I love journalism too, but I love going deep in one topic. Yeah. So it's an interesting progression. You start with shorter pieces and frequency, and then you go to places that allow you to write longer and longer pieces. So it's kind of like everything just gets bigger and longer and more in depth

until the natural next step is it's true and one thing i find it very intimidating to think about writing a book so i do sometimes think of it all right i'm not going to write a good book i'm going to write a hundred small articles and and figure out a way to string them together and make it an emotional arc. So, I mean, I think that's a good, always whenever I see a huge project, I'm like, all right, let's break it down because I cannot just tackle one big thing. It's big. But I love the fact that also, I mean, the books that you've written, unless I'm missing them, they've all been, well, the first one was 2004, right, was the encyclopedia one?

Right. Right. And then Bible one came next, right? Right. And then the health one came next? Right. Right. So they're all basically – you have the frame going into it.

It's a one-year experiment in your life. Right. Right. Which is – which kind of actually that's – kind of like creates like a trilogy, right? Because you've got like mind, spirit and body. Exactly. And I, I said when I was promoting them that I had thought of it that way, but I didn't. I just came up with it afterwards.

I was like, that's good. It's a great hook for the media, man. Yeah, exactly. I wish I were that smart that I could have come up with it beforehand. If you're looking for flexible workouts, Peloton's got you covered. Summer runs or playoff season meditations, whatever your vibe, Peloton has thousands of classes built to push you. We know how life goes. New father, new routines, new locations. What matters is that you have something there to adapt with you, whether you need a challenge or rest.

And Peloton has everything you need, whenever you need it. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required.

Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is?

You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. I love the fact that you have this frame. So, and the big frame is, okay, let me do an experiment in my life. And I know you said, you know, it's, well, I lived a very straightforward, not super exciting life. But was there something bigger than that that made you say, let me actually, like, lock into these intense one- year, you know, full life experiments.

Well, part of it is just the idea of self-improvement. I love the idea of self-improvement. And I thought the best way would be to just go to the extreme. So if I want to become healthier, why not follow every single piece of health advice, thousands of them and see what works for me and what doesn't. And then at the end, I can take away and keep the stuff that works. Right. And jettison the stuff that doesn't.

So that was sort of extreme self-improvement. So which brings up an interesting question. Of those, you know, let's take the trilogy here. Maybe we'll take them one at a time. You did everything that you could possibly do. You found every rule that you could possibly follow and tried you know within you know the capable of a human being to follow them all um with each one of those three categories what were the ones that you decided to to stick with afterwards well i'll give you one from each one uh first i i took away many but from the, one was the idea of gratitude, because the Bible says that you have to be thankful all the time.

And I took that very literally. So I was thankful for every little thing in my life. You know, I would get in and I'd press the elevator button and I would be thankful that the elevator came to the lobby. And then I'd get in the elevator and be thankful it didn't plummet to the basement and break my forehead. So it was a weird way to live. But it was also wonderful because you did see that there are hundreds of things that go right every day that you totally take for granted. And we focus on the three or four that go wrong.

So it was a radical change in perspective. And that's when I've really tried to keep being thankful. I'm thankful that you provided water here. I'm thankful that it's not too hot. It's a little hot, but not too hot. It could be. So that is a big change in my life. Yeah, and there's great research around that now, too, coming out of the world of positive psychology on how that's really, you know, we've got this really strong negative bias.

So in order to offset it, you actually need a ratio of a multiple of, you know, like negative thoughts. So you need all this gratitude and positive thoughts. Oh, yeah. I mean, you talk about this in your book, that criticism, you know, you read 100 positive reviews and then you read one negative review. That's all you think about. Yeah. So that is a terrible way that's our brains are completely uh warped and and flawed so i agree there yeah so then from um living biblically what was the sort of like one thing well that was the living

biblically okay that was right uh then yeah that's right for health uh one thing was just the idea of the one thing that really changed my life is that i move a lot more uh you've probably wrote that whole book on a treadmill exactly i wrote it while walking on a treadmill and i still do every day i get on the treadmill i walk i don't run but i just it there's a lot of i think you brought up john rady who yeah who wrote a book about this yeah it's phenomenal this book like changed my world it's fantastic and it's all about as you know how how much your movement affects your thoughts and how much just keeping active keeps you more creative and happier and just walking around. So that's what I do.

And and and it even there's another woman named Amy Cuddy. You've probably seen her TED talk. Yeah. So same thing. She says that your posture affects your mood. So I try to stand up straight because my regular posture is terrible. I like to say it's like hominid number two on the evolution charts. So that was the evolution charts.

So that was the big takeaway. And the other takeaway from the healthy hell, you know, is how do I motivate myself to be healthy? And one of the ways I think about is, is instead of thinking it as a selfish act, you know, think of trying to remember that it that it's it's for my family. I want to be around so that I can see my kids get married. And so it's not, if you think of it that way, instead of just thinking of it as a selfish act, you're actually doing something for the community because you'll be around and you'll be helped and you won't be taking away resources, then that's much more motivating to me. Oh, that's interesting. So the idea of like a bigger service element to it actually is more of a draw for you. That's interesting. It's a little service.

It's like a responsibility. It's not just something I should do to get abs. It's something I should do because I want to be a good person to my family. Yeah, I know. That's a huge motivator for me also is really for my family. It's like, how can I take care of myself? Because I've got a wife and a kid who I want to be here as long as possible. And also I want to kind of set an example.

Right. You know, to be, especially these days, you know, we're both in New York City, you know, raising families in New York City. And the first thing that gets stripped is, you know, is movement from school systems, you know, and it's kind of disastrous on so many levels. I mean, the ancient Greeks knew that, you know, there was scholar athlete there, they were intertwined, there's no separation there, one feeds the other, but somehow we've kind of forgotten about that these days. So it's, I mean, even if you can draw from so many worlds,

you know, like from performance and cognitive function, and then, and then health and well being, it's like, yeah, but I think about that also, you know, I from performance and cognitive function and then, and then health and wellbeing. It's like, yeah, but I think about that also, you know, I want to model. It's funny cause I meditate every morning. I'm the first one up in my house. When I, when I really started a regular practice, I was a little bit nervous about my daughter wandering out and saying, daddy, you know, like just kind of like sitting in this trans like state. And, um, and then pretty quickly she just kind of got it.

She's like, oh, you know, he's doing his meditation thing. And then every once in a while she would come out and, you know, just sort of like bring a blanket and lie down and put her head in my lap. I'm like, this is the best. And I've never told her to meditate. I've never taught her. But just exposing her to the notion that this is a regular practice. Right. That, you know, can be good for you if you want to come to it in your own time.

That is great. I have not yet come to it. I know all regular practice. Right. That, you know, can be good for you if you want to come to it in your own time. That is great. I have not yet come to it. I know all the research, how great it is, and it makes you smarter. I didn't come to it all that willingly. But yeah, no, I haven't been able to. I actually, there is a, we got Nintendo Wii a few years ago

and there's a meditation game on Nintendo Wii. So maybe. Which is like, just sounds so contradictory. I know, it's hilarious hey if it gets the jobs i'm mad i'm for it that's all right yeah i don't think it's quite as popular as uh as some of the action sports ones yeah exactly so um was there anything from the um the uh encyclopedia one well there was lots of takeaways from that. Like bits of knowledge. I mean, one is just the idea,

and you talk about this in your book, the idea of failure and how it's such a part of life and you have to, you don't have to love it, but you have to accept it and realize, you know, I still get rejected all the time,

every day, dozens of times. Which is so fun. so let's linger on that for a second though right because a lot of people look at you they're like okay really successful guy multi-time new york times best-selling author he's got the world at his feet you should just like you should wake up in the morning i think the assumption for a lot of people is you know like every door swings open when you step out of your apartment first. Well, it's nice of this. If anyone actually believes that, it's quite a deluge. I don't think it. Yeah, it's I'm hustling all the time and I get rejected.

I don't think you can do anything interesting without just going out there and trying it and getting rejected, rejected, rejected. And, yeah, I still do it all the time so my book ideas article ideas get rejected and some of them are bad most of my ideas are bad but uh but some of them take off and i love that and in the encyclopedia you would read about all these guys you know chester carlson the guy who invented xerox he got rejected from 22.E. Cummings had a good, he got rejected, one of his books got rejected by 15 publishers. And in the introduction, he dedicated it to all of the publishers who rejected him. That's great. It was sort of an anti-dedication.

He said, you know, thanks to my wife and kids or whatever. And then he said, no thanks to. And then he listed all the publishers. Oh, that's too funny, which seems a little petty, right? A little petty, aggressive. Yeah.

Even, I mean, he Cummings, you think like clouds and balloons. He's actually like, he's got a petty streak, but, but anyway,

the point is rejection. That was one of the big lessons from that. Yeah. And I think, you know, there's this notion that, you notion that once you've made it, you've made it for life. Rather than, you know, it's a constant process.

And some stuff works really well, and some stuff is going to bomb. And the stuff that most people end up seeing is the small percentage of stuff that you throw up against a wall that makes it through every gatekeeper and every filter and all of the hard work and putting it together until it actually sees the day of light totally and there is uh yeah there's so much that i've written that'll never see the light thank god and in fact it's not the same thing i'm really happy about that yeah i know there's actually a book coming out that i contributed to called drivel and it's something like uh the worst

writing from your favorite writers or something like that so i i contributed a few pieces to that because yes i mean you talk to these creativity experts and they say picasso did some great paintings but he also did a lot of crappy paintings everyone does it's a it's a quantity game yeah and i think that's one of the big the mythology and in the world of creative professionals also as people kind of like well you get to a level where you know either you have or you don't that's one of the big debates of course and then like even if you assume that you have it or you can work towards it um then it's still going to take you know years of developing the craft but then once you hit that level of like

i'm a master then all the work that you do from that moment forward is going to be at that level right right and it's like it doesn't quite work that way in reality i mean love the fact that you said it's a quantity game because it is you know and it's what's funny too is like you'll find you know stashes of undiscovered illustrations or drawings or paintings from famous artists, and they'll become available. People will pay a ton of money for them, even though this is from a period where the person really wasn't good, but their name is on it, and they just want something with the name on it. But there's a lot of drivel.

Like you said, I love the fact that there's a book coming out called The Dribble. Yeah, I think there needs to be more of that. It's good for people to see how terrible a lot of these writers and artists were and still are sometimes. I like this new book that I'm writing. It took me three or four stabs to find the right topic. Now I'm overjoyed because I think I've found a topic I'm so passionate about, but there were like three aborted books right before it.

All right. So I want to talk about the book that you're working on right now. But are you open to sharing what any of those aborted topics were too? Sure. I'll tell you all of my failures. I mean, I get what I do. I get a lot of suggestions because what I do is, as you know, I do these experiments, try things out. So I get a lot of suggestions from readers

on what I should do. One of the most popular I get a lot from readers is that I should try to become the greatest lover alive and do all of the positions in the Kama Sutra. And I actually brought this up with my wife once and she's like, no way.

There's no way you're going to do, which I am. I'm okay with. And then also not then write about it. I mean, you have the structure for that book too, but I don't know if you'd ever. First of all, who would want to read that? Secondly, I don't have the energy or the flexibility. Maybe you as a yoga meditation guy do, but I don't. So yeah, that was a, that was a non-starter.

There was one that I actually may still go back to. But the idea is sort of similar to Shark Tank, the book, where I would take my book advance and I would invest it in five different startups and see which one took off and sort of learned to be an angel investor VC by doing it. And it's still an interesting idea. The problem is that chances are you would lose money. Right, there's a good shot that all five companies would actually lose money. I mean, I looked into the statistics. The statistics are that one in 10 of these startups actually takes off and exits in a big way.

But the real statistic is probably like much less, like one in 20. Because you don't read about a lot of the ones that just never even took off. So anyway, I didn't end up doing that now. And yeah, I can't even remember the other rejects, but there were many. So tell me about the new book and what brought you to it because I think it's a pretty cool concept. Well, thank you. And you are going to be involved because you are. Yeah, this one came about because I got an email from a guy out of the blue. And he said, I've read your books and you're my 12th cousin.

And he said he had a family tree with 80,000 people on it. And I thought, of course, Nigerian scam. He's going to ask me to send him $10,000. But it turned out it's true that there are now, thanks to the Internet, these mega mammoth family trees with thousands and thousands of people on them. Because it's thousands of people working at the same time it's the wiki wikipedia model collaboration right and so now i'm on one i'm on a couple of different sites like wikitree and genie which have millions of people on my family tree so i have a tree with 78 million people.

And you didn't put it, obviously you put it in the parts that you did, but then they're drawing from everything that everybody else has put in and basically finding the overlap. That's it, exactly. So you can create one giant family tree. Right. If you put up your tree and there's a Jonathan Fields in your tree and a Jonathan Fields in someone else's tree, they figure out, well, is this the same Jonathan Fields?

If it is, you can combine. So it just sprouts like an avalanche of family trees. And it's so cool. And so with all of these millions of cousins, I thought, I want to throw a party. So that's what I'm doing. That's my book, is I'm throwing the biggest family reunion ever. It's a fundraiser So that's what I'm doing. That's my book is I'm throwing the biggest family reunion ever. It's a fundraiser for Alzheimer's and it's, um, it's going to be like a family reunion meets a TED conference meets, uh, Woodstock, uh, with, without the nudity or, uh, and with bathroom

facilities. But, uh, it's here in New York summer of 2015 and everyone's invited you're invited all 7 billion members because at some point we're all part of the same tree exactly we are that's the idea that shows we're one big family and that cliche is true

we're all one big family and maybe if we see this more concretely that we'll be a little kinder to each other that's sort of the idealistic hope. But I am loving it. I am loving. So I've been going around meeting all of my cousins. Right, your relatives.

My relatives. I interviewed George H.W. Bush, who is about 14 steps away from me. And I'm a Democrat, but I think he's a lovely man. And he's family. And he's family. That's the whole thing. It's like's a lovely man and he's family and he's family it's like okay well he's family so I gotta give him some level of respect right if you don't agree with the philosophy that's it

and I met Daniel Radcliffe who is he had said on a radio show he had read one of my books so I reached out to him and I was like you know we're cousins and I had tracked down how we're cousins oh that's too funny so I got it's actually a good way to network right it's like it's the ultimate social network you call up if you're looking to get a client like hey you know we're we're I don't want to freak you out but

we're cousins maybe would you mind taking a meeting so So it does have practical value. But, yeah, no, I'm loving it. And as I say, it's nonprofit. I have partners who are helping, including FamilySearch, which is another awesome website for ancestry and heredity. So I'm super excited about it. And I want you there. I haven't tracked you down. Your name is a little too common. It's a little annoying.

What's funny is my name actually is not my real name. Oh, really? Yeah. When my great grandfather came into the country, our family name was changed because he was, he came from Russia. And he was concerned about anti-Semitism when they came to the country, so they basically changed the name. Interesting. Do you know what your real name is?

It's Feldstein. Feldstein. Okay. Was the original. Supposedly. I'll have to double-check. I'm going to track you down. But what's funny is my... So, you gave a talk about this at our mutual friend Chris Guillebeau's World Nation Summit. Love that guy. And my daughter was hanging out with us in the audience,

and she was listening to it. And then she went on Genie, and she's been building out our family chain. No way. So she's asking grandparents for all sorts of different stuff. So she's on there. So it's like she's building the whole thing out. So I'm going to go look her up right now, see how we connect. We'll set that up.

We'll have to find the overlap. I'm sure there is. It won't even be that hard to find. Yeah, probably not. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running,

swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised.

The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die.

Don't shoot if we need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. So, how does this become a book? Well, the book will be... it's weird because I'm spending far more of my time on the event than the book. So don't tell my publisher. But I do think, I mean, it's in, I think I'll have such a community of cousins that hopefully some of them will buy the book. You know, if I got 78 million cousins, all I need is like one in 10.

And then I got like the biggest bestseller ever. But yeah, the book will be partly about this. Some of my most interesting cousins. Maybe I'll go. I'm cousins with Warren Buffett, as are you. So go and ask him for financial advice. Also, I'll go. I turned out when I did DNA testing that I am distant cousins with

my wife. So that was an interesting twist. Uh, so I'm going to have a chapter. How do we feel about that morally and ethically? Well, it was distant. Uh, but you know, it's not unusual. We're all married to our cousins. If you go back far enough and you look in history, all of these, you know, Edgar Allan Poe married, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, everyone married their cousin.

So there will be sort of a chapter on the history of cousin marriage and what does it mean, the history of intermarriage. Because we live in a very interesting world right now because we are intermarrying at an unprecedented rate. So, I mean, that is my great hope for world peace, is that we're going to be intermarried so much that it's going to be hard to, it's very hard now to say, oh, I'm a pure blood Scotsman because there's already so much. It's like we're all mutts to a certain extent. Yes, we are all mutts. Is that part of the bigger sort of philosophical underpinning of what you're doing with this? I mean, do you think about it on that level, or are you just kind of having a blast and learning really cool stuff?

No, no, that is a big part of it, is the idea that we are all one part of this big family, and that hopefully that will change people's perception. You'll see how enmeshed you are in history. You'll see that you are, you're a mutt and that you should, you should maybe have a little more tolerance. So yeah, that's a big part of it. And, uh, I mean, I don't, I don't believe in the literal Bible, but scientists talk about the mitochondrial Eve and the Y chromosomal Adam. And these were the two, two people that we all people that we all have a tiny bit of their DNA.

So they are all of ours. Great, great, great, great. Repeat that about 3,000 times. Grandparents. And so we all do come from these two people. Yeah, it's pretty cool. So I want to shift gears a little bit and talk a little bit about your creative process. So you're somebody who's a full-time writer. There aren't many around these days. You earn your living, you support a family in New York City as a writer and a published author. You're a regular contributor to magazines. Right. For now. For now.

That world is moving really quickly. That's it. Yeah. Well, let's go there a little bit. I mean, what's it like to be writing sort a writer. I more see myself as like a small entrepreneur. And I just, for me, the idea, it's so important to come up with as many ideas and try them and see what works. So part of my living is, I'm an editor at large at Esquire.

Part is from the book advances. Part is from speaking. I. Part is from speaking. I do a lot of speaking. Part is just trying new things. And, you know, I'm not going to make any money on this global family reunion. In fact, I might lose money because it is a fundraiser. But, you know, that'll hopefully increase my community and maybe I can do something with my community that does make money someday. So to me, that's the difference.

I don't see myself as a writer attached to one particular publication. I'm just sort of a free-roaming entrepreneur. And I think that's the, I mean, it seems, I think that's really the mindset that you have to adopt these days if you want to survive as a writer. Cause the land,

it's like you, you wake, wake up one morning and the landscape is different, you know, from how it was yesterday. I know things are moving so quickly and you have to, but I know so many people, especially writers who really fight against that concept of being an entrepreneur or an enterprise because all they want to do is put their head down and do great research and write great pieces and hope and pray that that's enough. switch. And one of the things that helped me was that I had to pretend I said, all right, I have

to do this marketing side of writing. It's not what I wanted to do. But as long as I'm doing it, let me try to be as creative as possible in the marketing. So for instance, when I had a book about the Bible, I was like, how can I market this creatively? And I thought, well, what if I, uh, what if I reached audiences that never had any interest in, or, you know, you wouldn't think so. I was like, what about women's magazines? So I wrote for Glamour Magazine, I wrote sex tips from the Bible, because there are, you know, there are a lot of relations there. the song of solomon there's a whole section on uh he says that your breasts are like twin gazelles grazing in the lilies that's in the bible it's hot stuff for the bible at least so that you know finding creative ways to market is and reframing marketing

as a creative enterprise instead of this necessarily evil that gets in the way of writing, that was a big switch for me. Yeah, I think that's part of the big mythology that stops so many people from going to that side is that you work on this foundation assumption that the business side is evil. It's just you're an artist. You're like, that's what you do and anything that you know involves business or marketing or entrepreneurship it's just it wars with the fiber of what being an artist is and and um and i love the fact that you you kind of said no not necessarily i can have a lot of fun you know i can do something that you know is gets the benefits of really good marketing but at the same time be super creative and have a blast day.

Right. You have to just think about it. You have to kind of shift the lens. And I once interviewed the artist Christo, the one who did the gates in Central Park and wraps buildings. And he was working on those gates in Central Park. Do you remember those? Yeah, sure.

Those are amazing. But he was working on it for literally 26 years trying to get permission from the city. And I said, that must have driven you nuts. And he says, well, yes and no. He says, to me, part of the

art is going through the red tape and the bureaucracy. That is not separate from my art. which i thought was really i don't know if i could do that like i can't reframe filling out forms as art but uh but i like his thinking that that you can't just say well this is this is not part of my job it is part of and try to be creative with it yeah that so interesting. If you can do that reframe and just say, this is all part of the entire process. And maybe like all that is the stuff that opens up a new creative vein, you know, when

you sort of go back to the realm of creativity. Right. Because you had now that you've had, whether it's the angst or the experience or the time that just gives you more data. Right. That's true. Sort of like the creative engine. Yeah.

That's that to me is that right. Getting as much knowledge and experience and then mixing them around and seeing what comes out. Yeah. Have you thought about, um, you're still traditionally published. Um, have you, have you thought about at all sort of the future of books and the possibility of doing it independently? Oh, sure.

You know, you can't not with every day there's another article about it. So far, my publisher has been delightfully supportive. And they have skills that I don't have, like sales skills and connections at the bookstores. So for now, I'm quite happy with my situation. But, you know, the key to life, that was another big lesson of the encyclopedia is flexibility and adaptability. So maybe someday in the future, I'll do something else. But for now, I'm pretty happy with the setup. Yeah, it's so interesting to me when I hear writers bashing the sort of traditional, what is it, big five now?

Right, big one, I think. Right, it's really moving in that direction. Yeah, because I mean, I think a lot of the handwriting is on the wall. But for, and people come to me all the time, and they're asking, like, should I independently publish myself? You know, should I go with a publisher if I can get an offer? And I'm like, what's your business model? What's the role of a book in the bigger scope of what you're doing? Are you just a writer's writer where you just – you have to write?

This is just what you do? That's it? Or is this going to open up the next three years of speaking and consulting and stuff like this and um yeah and it's and it's you know depending on what your you know what the role of the book is and you're sort of your bigger creative venture you know that the decision really has to be made in that context and a lot of people i think don't sort of zoom their lens out to that level when thinking about they either just think it's, you know, that the traditional publishing is evil or it's, you know, it's God. Yeah, that is true. He says that the books feed the TV appearances and the TV appearances feed the speaking gigs and the speaking gigs feed his family.

So, yeah, you got it. For some people, the book is the end point. And for some, it's just a stepping stone, a calling card for something else. Have you read the book Daily Rituals? I'm in the middle of it. I love it. It's fantastic. So good. It's so good. card for something else. Have you read the book Daily Rituals? I'm in the middle of it. I love it. It's fantastic.

So good. It's so good. One of the things that really struck, there were a bunch of things that struck me about the book, but one of the things that really struck me was the number of people in the book that actually kept a day job and they weren't working to try and leave it. They're like, no, no, no. I'm good with this arrangement. Interesting. I'm good keeping my day job and then doing this incredible other stuff on the side. And I was always kind of thinking like, what is it about that? And increasingly, I think that that

I wonder if that gives them the freedom to actually create on a level where they're creating with the much lesser fear of judgment. That's true. Much closer to the heart. Right. Because they don't really have to worry about feeding their family. That's taken care of. Yeah.

Yeah, there's a much lower risk if you have sort of an anchor. And the other thing about having a day job, which I don't have, is that I think that being creative, being in a community, and I think there are many studies on this, where you can bounce ideas off each other, that is a real spur to creativity. I mean, I like Susan Cain, who wrote this book on being an introvert, talks about how you really need to be alone to come up with great ideas. I think she overstated the case.

I think you need a mix. I think you need to be in a place where there's a lot of ideas bouncing around. You take some of those ideas, and then you can go and sit by yourself and create something. But I think just being a total introvert, which is actually my natural, I would naturally stay at home and not interact with other people. But I force myself to, because I think that is really where you get the ideas. And they talk about this, you know, the coffee houses of the enlightenment. And that's one of the other things that popped out in daily rituals, too, is that most of these people were really social. They would do the creative work for a relatively short amount of time every day.

And then they would go out and they socialized. They would drink a lot of drinking in that book. But they would go out and on walking for hours and stop by the cafe and the pub and then have family over. And then people would come and they would have come get people come over at night. And there was a lot there was a lot more of that, like we're getting decreasingly social. It's sort of like, you know, the me. But I also wonder if it's hurting the creative process because we have less opportunity for those just serendipitous conversations where the light bulbs go on. Right. And if you surround yourself with people who have the same point of view, then you're not going to be as creative. Right. It's just everything's homogenous. It's blah, blah, blah. Right. Exactly. So the name of this project is Good Life Project. So if I offer that phrase out to you, to live a good life, what does it mean to you?

I think part of it is, that is a big question. It's really big. I should have thought of it before because it's called the Good Life Project. Well, I think it means different things to different people. So I'm not going to say this is the final answer. But to me, part of it is balance, and part of it is one of the big secrets I've learned from all of my experiments is the importance of deception and deceiving

yourself. So I think if you don't have a good life, then you can try to pretend that you do and your life might actually get a little better. I can't just leave that hanging out there. You've got to break that down a little bit. I know that is a little... Give me the deception part of this. Well, this is... Deception is a loaded word. But I found that... I think there's a great quote from the guy who founded Habitat for Humanity.

And he said, it's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking than to think your way into a new way of acting. And I love that because when I was doing the Bible, for instance, I had to, one of the big challenges was to become a better person. The Bible says you cannot gossip or covet or lie. And, you know, I'm a journalist and live in New York City. That's my life. So I thought, what do I do? So that's when I decided to pretend to be a better person. And eventually, the more I pretended, the more I became a little bit of a better person. I still have a long way to go. But the whole idea of fake it till you make it, fake it till you become it is very powerful.

And psychology talks about it all the time. If you force yourself to smile, then you actually trick your mind a bit and you become a little bit happier. I had a friend in the hospital during my year of writing the book about the Bible. Hate hospitals. I did not want to go visit. But I said, what would a good person do? And I acted as if I were a good person. And I became, when I got to the hospital, I'm like, oh, I'm here visiting my friend. I must be pretty compassionate. And I tricked my mind into thinking that way. And I feel the same way about confidence. A lot of times when I was writing my book about health, for instance, I was so, every morning I woke up totally in despair that this book was too big. I would never finish it. I didn't know what I was talking about.

But I would sort of pretend that I was confident. So I'd force myself to make phone calls to my publisher and say, we're going to have a huge party when the book comes out and we'll serve only healthy drinks like kale martinis. And he was like, okay. And then after two hours, three hours, my mind caught up with my actions and I became a little more confident. So for me, if you want to live a good life, if you want to be a good person, one strategy that I find very powerful is to pretend to be a good person.

That is provocative and interesting. I need to think on that. Very cool. It's been awesome hanging out. I appreciate the conversation. I love it. I love it. I'm a big fan. Oh, before we turn off, I do want everyone in the human family at this event. So if anyone is interested in joining and seeing how they're related to me and to you and to Barack Obama and Kevin Bacon, then they can go on my, on globalfamilyreunion.com.

Okay. And that will tell you how to join the big family. Awesome. Well, I'm going to do my best to be there because, I mean, we're family. I can't let you down. No, you got to be there. I got to represent. Yeah, it's not a choice. This is why you were talking about lack of choices.

This is why you have no choice. I would be sh you were talking about, lack of choices. This is one that you have no choice. I would be shunned by the 78 million others. You know, where's Fields? Exactly. And your daughter. I want her there, too. Awesome. Great hanging out, man.

I appreciate it. Thank you. As always, I hope you enjoyed the show this week. I'm always so excited to share these wonderful conversations and interesting people with you. Thanks so much for tuning in. As always, signing off for Good Life Project, this is Jonathan Fields. We'll see you next time. vibe. Peloton has thousands of classes built to push you. We know how life goes. New father, new routines, new locations. What matters is that you have something there to adapt with you, whether you need a challenge or rest. And Peloton has everything you need, whenever you need it.

Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun.

January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him! We need him him y'all need a pilot flight risk