Good Life Project - Alan Cumming | Making Peace & Claiming Joy

Episode Date: October 25, 2021

Surviving what he describes as a tormented childhood riddled with abuse, Alan Cumming turned to acting, before he knew it was acting, as a way to step out of the world he inhabited and into one of his own creation. One that was safe, where he made the rules. That impulse eventually led him to leave home, study drama in Glasgow, and, in his words” tumble” into a career that, from the outside-in, has appeared as an endless stream of successes. He’s performed with everyone from Jay Z to Liza Minelli; won countless theatrical awards, made back-to-back films with Stanley Kubrick and the Spice Girls; played God, the Devil, Hitler, the Pope, a teleporting superhero, Hamlet, all the parts in Macbeth, General Batista of Cuba, a goat opposite Sean Connery, and political spinmeister Eli Gold on seven seasons of The Good Wife. He’s also owned the stage and invited people to re-examine their beliefs, identity, sexuality and sense of power, propriety and openness in the role of the EmCee in Cabaret, which he took on three times over 22 years in London and on Broadway. He’s the author of five books including a #1 New York Times best-selling memoir; and played the first-ever gay leading role on a US network drama, CBS’s Instinct. And, Alan was made an Officer of the British Empire for his contributions to the arts and LBGT equality by the Queen, and has had a love affair with New York City for nearly three decades, where he lives with his husband, and just for fun, also owns a bar.What sounds like a near-magical life on stages, television and the big screen, though, has also seen its share of profound pain, loss, grief, existential struggle, and eventually a series of reckonings, and awakenings to who and what matters, and a certain reclamation of joy and life. Now in his 50s, he reflects on these moments along this journey in his new book, Baggage: Tales from a Fully Packed Life, and we dive into all of it, along with his take on current culture, in today’s conversation. You can find Alan at: Website | InstagramIf you LOVED this episode:You’ll also love the conversations we had with Matthew McConaughey about what really matters in life.My new book Sparked!-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

When you see patterns of your own behavior and of others, and then you decide to make a, you think, oh, this is the situation again. Here's what I did last time. Oh, look what happened. Maybe I'll do something else this time. That's wisdom. And I realized that I had walked away from an awful lot of things in my life. And then I realized that I wanted to walk towards something. It's just a mental shift, but it changed so much for me. So surviving what he describes as a tormented childhood riddled with abuse alan cumming turned to acting before he even really knew what acting was as a way to step out of the world he inhabited and into one of his own creation one that was safe where he made the rules and that impulse

eventually led him to leave home to study drama in Glasgow and, in his words, tumble into a career that, from the outside in, has appeared as this endless stream of successes. He's performed with everyone from Jay-Z to Liza Minnelli, won countless theatrical awards, made back-to-back films with people like Stanley Kubrick and even the Spice Girls, played God, the Devil, Hitler, a Pope, a teleporting superhero, Hamlet, all parts in Macbeth, General Batista of Cuba, a goat opposite Sean Connery, and a political spinmeister, Eli Gold on Seven Seasons of the Good Life. He's also owned the stage and invited people to really re-examine their beliefs, identity, sexuality, and sense of power, propriety, and openness in the role of the emcee in Cabaret, which he took on three times over 22 years in London and on Broadway. He's the author of five

books, including a number one New York Times bestselling memoir, and played the first ever gay leading role on a US network drama, CBS's Instinct. And Allen was made an officer of the British Empire for his contributions to the arts and LGBT equality by the Queen and has had a love affair with New York City for nearly three decades where he lives with his husband and just for fun also happens to own a bar. So what sounds like this near magical life on stages though, on television, on big screen, has also seen its share of profound pain, loss, grief, existential struggle, and eventually a series of reckonings and awakenings to who and what matters, and a certain reclamation of joy and of life. And now in his 50s, Ellen reflects on these moments along this journey in his new book,

Baggage, and we dive into it all, along with his take on current culture in this conversation. So excited to share it with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot.

Flight risk. Some fun connections. Apparently, we're both born in 1965, which I recently learned is the year of the snake in Chinese animals. You didn't know that? Yes, we're snakes. Yeah, I didn't realize that. I quickly looked up what it meant, and I was like, wait a minute.

How can every person born in this year be all of that? I was like, I just don't get that. Yeah, it is a little random. I'll give you that. Yeah. You also have a love affair with New York. I'm a New Yorker who's recently, as of last year, after being born just outside and spent my entire adult life in the city, have been out in Colorado for the last year. Where about? In Boulder, Boulder area. Oh, Boulder. Oh gosh, that's lovely there. It's beautiful.

Yeah. It's really nice, you know? And it's interesting if we take a whole big step back in time for you, like you grew up effectively on an estate, which was, you know, like your family was, your dad was the head forester. And I wonder was, you know, I know you've described in a lot of detail, it was a terribly abusive experience for you and yet a tough upbringing. Was growing up on that area also, I wonder if it was also isolating for you, sort of like removing you from other people?

Completely. Because you were almost like in your own little mini place. Totally. I mean, yeah. I mean, the nearest neighbors, it's practically in a forest, you know, and there were other people who worked on the estates but there weren't i mean there weren't streetlights there weren't you know it was in the middle of the country and there was neighbors you know up the road a bit but not people there weren't like kids of my age yeah very isolated and also you know the other thing was i was I I when you are in an abusive situation you're sort of ashamed so I wouldn't really want to bring people to my house I'd be too scared of what

might happen with my dad and so I yeah I was very very isolated and um I you know my solace was going into the woods and sort of you know just dayddreaming with my dogs and just kind of sort of making stuff up. I mean, I kind of think that's my first foray into acting was me just pretending to be other people wandering around the woods just to kind of get away from the kind of awfulness of my present existence then. But yeah, it was, I think it definitely, and also it's easier to be, you know, when you are the person who is abusing, it's much easier to do it when you're not, it was, I think it definitely, and also it's easier to be, you know, when you

are the person who is abusing, it's much easier to do it when you're not, you don't have neighbors, you don't have people coming by, you know, so it's, yeah, it was sort of the perfect storm. Yeah. It's interesting the way you described acting, sort of like in those earlier days, it seems like it's almost part, you know, allowing you to step into an alternate reality. It's like when you get to create the world, you get to identify identify the character you get to play the role you want to play in the world you want to play yeah very much so yeah that was definitely so it's like a coping mechanism

it's almost like you get to create your own safety exactly exactly and i still feel like i write in my this new book about how i think about acting as this fusion of utter truth and utter deceit at the same time. And I actually love that. I think that's really good because you can, I said to someone that, you know, when you tell a lie, like, you know, like you're sort of a lie to tell a lie to someone because you're trying to surprise them or to, or, you know, or just to tell a lie. People tell lies sometimes. And there's some sort of thrill of telling a lie, of being bad, of being naughty, of subterfuge. And that's kind of what acting's like for me. There's almost an erotic thrill about lying because you're being someone else. Yeah.

And I think that's always been a part of it for me. I mean, that's amazing. I actually, I remember the line that you wrote in the book. I actually, I noted it because it really resonated with me. You wrote, there was something about the doing of it that made me feel more alive, heightened, energized. I guess pretending to be someone else is both a way to show others who you are. And at the same time, not fully have to present your true self. It's a constant duality of utter truth and utter deceit. And for me, that was and is completely thrilling and addictive. Because I'm so impressed that you found that so quickly. How did you do that? Did you do a search for a certain word or something?

I'm so moved. I've been gone so long. Yeah, no, it really jumped out. And so it's funny that you brought that up. That's great, Jonathan. Yeah, no, I love that. It just demonstrates something so deep about it. I love that about it. And I think it's, I mean, I always think that people talk too much about acting. I know all of them mythologize, especially American people, and make it into a science when it's not. And people say to me, oh, what's your process?

I always say I'm not cheese. I have no process. And I can't, I can't bear that thought that it's a process. It's somehow you, it's like a chemical, you know, experiment or something. Um,

but I, I, I think it should be like kids, you know, it should be like kids having playing, just playing and, and, and,

and, and, and they get a thrill about pretending to be someone else and to be sort of, and to be lying, you know? And, uh, that's what I, that's what I like. And I just, I don't, I mean, people, there's this movie I'm going to do with this director and I've, you know,

met him a few times and he says, I know you say you have no process, but I don't believe you. I was like, Oh, well, I don't have a process. Yeah. I don't have a process in the way that you think like this movie i'm going to do now it's in my head it's it's started i've sort of made some decisions but it's just sort of i just live with it i don't try and you know make a gazillion notes i don't sort of i just sort of think who is this person let them just be and live in my mind for a while and get to know them that's what that's my process i suppose but it's not a process i don't sort of i just and then but what's interesting

i'll be i'll just be walking along walking my dog and then i'll think oh i see i've made a decision about about him i made you know so it's it's sort of like that i just think that's i hate i just like my worst fear is being in a room of actors all talking about acting and one of the things about um i did that show schmigadoon for apple in during the pandemic that's the first thing i you know went back to work to do and i loved it but because of all the covid stuff we were all different colors i think we were red the actors and the director and you know and the makeup people and the cinematographer were red and yellow yellow was like, you know, the other crew that could be on the set with us but couldn't come near us. Then there was green for the people who moved the scenery.

It was various things. And what it meant was as soon as you finished a take, you couldn't just hang out and chat to the crew and shoot the breeze. You had to leave the soundstage, go into another one and just be with the actors. And it sounds awful sounds awful i actually loved all those acts it's been a great time but that's kind of my idea of hell that i just i can't i can only talk to actors i mean there was the the makeup in here people weren't over there too but i just find it sort of you know i find the notion of talking about acting boring and it's just you should just do it do you know what i mean yeah i mean it's

interesting also the way you describe being isolated within the set i have a bunch of friends like haven't been in new york for a long time um that have been in and out of all sorts of like theater film tv um one of them is actually a dresser who's um like been a dresser on broadway for decades and on different shows most recently in in Wicked. And she described what she does as, you know, when she describes what happens backstage, it's not just, you know, like the actors are here and the crew is here and the dressers are here and the makeup is here, but she literally described it as, you know, like, this is my actor. Like my job is literally like to make them feel seen, held, heard, like they are utterly taken care of because, and she positions herself as, you know, like,

if I do my job right, then the actor is in a state where when they step on stage, the narrative, the story flows into the audience and it lands differently. So it's like, she's part of the narrative of the entire story. Absolutely. I love that. I used to think stage managers are people that say something about my actors you know don't speak to my actors before they're about to go on stage or you know they get quite like you're a little like you're a lioness and you're a little cub but actually i

think it's really amazing that when people have that because they under you're right they understand how they can contribute to the end thing in a way. And it's been, it's been looked after in that way. Yeah. I'm all for that. I think that's really, I mean, I think that you should,

and I'm very respectful of whoever, whatever you need to do to get your shit together, to be on, on camera, be on stage, whatever I'm, you know, I,

I need to have a moment, you know, but if there's people who, you know, I mean, on camera or be on stage, whatever. I need to have a moment when a boy goes in. There's people who... I've not really worked with anyone who does that thing where they ask you to call them by their real name, their character's name, rather, and all that stuff. I probably just wouldn't speak to them, I suppose, if they did that. I think I'm very respectful of

whatever you need to do, except if it impinges on other people's lives. I just think, do what you need to do, but it impinges on other people's lives i just think you know do what you need to do but if it's do it in a corner and then come and do it but you're not going to sort of just chat with us and be a part of the gang and then sort of get on with it then don't make us have to buy into your thing that annoys me but i do think like help everyone helping you to do the best job you can is a really great thing about especially the theater actually it really feels like and in in films and things

you're aware of all that because they keep you like a little sort of cocooned prince you're in your trailer you get brought to that someone holds an umbrella for you you know you're like this little fragile little christmas tree ornament that you know and it's not just because you're a movie star and they're being nice to you it's because you have to be you have to do the goods and you have to you know time is money and they want you to just not be have any reason not to just get it done it's a business thing and i think that's and that's why i actually think yeah i should be looked after and i should be warm and fed and and whatever because when it

comes down to it you're the person on the camera that's got to like come up with the goods and if you fuck up you you slow everything down and it's also mortifying it's mortifying to screw up when everyone's looking at you i've done my my things i've had giggling fits when i couldn't stop laughing and first of all the crew are like oh how cute i don fits when I couldn't stop laughing. And first of all, the crew are like, oh, how cute. You can't stop laughing.

Ha ha ha. Then it's like Friday, you know, Friday afternoon or Friday evening, everyone wants to go home and I can't get my shit together. I can't stop laughing and we can't finish the scene

because I'm laughing. And I'm laughing because how awful it is that I can't stop laughing. And then everyone starts to get angry at me and I start, I'm laughing at the fact

they're getting angry at me and it's just, you know, that's terrible so uh i understand i understand the concept of that how you need to get your shit together and then if any anyone who can help you with that i'll take it yeah i mean it's a bigger consideration it's like you're a part of a bigger ecosystem and everyone's got to sort of like do their thing you know it's interesting so you end up you end up um growing up in this really tough environment, basically splitting to go and study theater or study drama, theater acting. And you step out of school and it seems like in fairly rapid succession, you're having all of these successes. You start to eventually

become known a bit in the US. It seems like a huge moment for you was actually Cabaret in the UK before you came to the US. And on so many different levels, it seems like it was personally transformational from a career standpoint, it was transformational, but also terrifying. And this is part of what you write about actually in Baggage. Yes. When it came to, I mean mean actually i did it first in london it was terrifying then too actually for other reasons but when i like it came to new york quite a few years after it was in london i thought it was never going to happen and i'd never worked in new york before i'd been like i'd come you know the first time i came was

for a premiere of a movie i was in you know I loved it but I didn't really know people here and I I wanted to spend more time in the city but anyway I came and you know I had never I'd it's hard to describe it because it sounds like I I only went to America when I was 30 like Like I never had been to America. I had a whole life where America was not even a part of my mental periphery. Then I went to Hollywood and then I went back to Europe. Then I came to New York and then I, you know, stayed. But I have an outsider's perspective, I think, because of that. But also at the same time, I'm obviously an outsider here,

but I also then and now, I'm still trying to catch up with American culture and American rules and American etiquettes, even American words. I said something on the stage the other night with Ari. I said something about something was a tissue of lies. He goes, what do you mean by that? I was like, a tissue of lies? He goes, we don't say that here. I was like, you don't? I've been saying that for years and nobody understands me. Then said also i laughed like a drain and he went what do you

mean i was like you know and apparently people don't say that here i every day i still find something that i'm either you know don't understand or have been saying wrong or i can't remember the american word for it so i'm at a disadvantage and i didn't grow up in this culture and so when I came to do Cabaret on Broadway in 1998 and I was became a part of the culture actually it was so overwhelming because I didn't really know what was going on I didn't understand nothing to compare it to it was obviously a huge thing it was a sensation and not just the sensation as a show but i think the sort of sexuality of the show and the way that i was sort of portrayed and perceived was something that people hadn't seen before and that kind of entered the zeitgeist in a way that was you know it was it was mental and i didn't

understand what was happening to me and i was very so i and I had fun but at the same time it was a bit like you know it's a lot of shallow breathing to get through it and yeah and that's why I'm so glad that I went back and did it again actually I did so I did cabaret that production again 16 years later about five years ago and you know I knew my way around the block by then I knew what to expect I knew what to expect i knew what's happening and i think the play was better because i my role in it wasn't so sensational and create the sex stuff or the sexuality stuff the more shocking stuff that happened in 1998 wasn't so shocking it wasn't so and it kind of didn't overshadow the rest of the play so much

so i think it was actually a better production and i certainly had more fun because i wasn't completely bowled over and freaked out by what this crazy thing that was happening to me. Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting also, because that show in particular, when you think about just the change in culture, the change in politics, the change in society between 98 and 14, when you did the last one, I mean, it's like the world changed so much that when you'd go and do that on Broadway in 98, which was a time also where, well, actually you write, the Kit Kat Club became a social utopia Americans could vote in before returning to the harsh reality of reality, right? This was a time where people were really, there was a lot of, it was a very polarizing time, I think, for sexuality and for like, you know, like stepping outside of the confines of what you were, quote, supposed to be

in the roles you were supposed to play. So when you're playing that role in 98, you know, you're not just playing that role. Like you're making a statement, I feel like, and the whole show was in a way where in 2014, it was just very different. Very, very different. And I was, you know, because I was European as well, you know, that made it kind of more exotic and mischievous and saucy. And also it was just, you know, I write in the book about how I tried to make sense of what happened to me. And I, you know, ironically, I'm very friendly with Monica Lewinsky. She's a dear friend. And I write, I sort of write this kind of treatise, I suppose, in a way,

about how I sort of think, and it's funny with the fact that all the stuff that she was going through that year in American life, it was all about sex and the prurience and the scandal and the damning of her during that year about about that kind of sexuality whereas for me being this sort of sexual deviant in a Broadway show and being a man a sort of skinny European man objectified in this way it was really lauded and I just thought that was so fascinating that I think in a way, I think perhaps that's one of the reasons why that production of Cadbury at that time

was so explosive because it was a counterpoint to what was going on, to what Americans were seeing every day on television and the newspapers with the whole Clinton impeachment scandal. Yeah. It's really fascinating.

I mean, I wonder if also part of it was there was a certain, there was a certain yearning to step outside of like that, the boundary of propriety at that time, you know, and everybody knew that there was another way to live. Everyone knew that there were all sorts of alternatives. But what, I mean, if I compare that time to today, right, where it feels like the world in a lot of ways is both more closed down, but also a lot more open.

I mean, conversation around sexuality, sexual orientation, gender identity, it kind of didn't exist in 98, unless you lived in a world of, you know, like queer culture in 98 was not a part of the common conversation, you know, social identity. It was, whereas today it's sort of like, it just comes up in all sorts of parts of conversation in the news, just in personal conversation, at dinner tables. But back then, it was like, okay, so you're either a part of this quote scene, which is an absurd sort of like word to use. And if you weren't, like there was an expectation that you would behave a certain way. But I think a lot of people didn't want to behave that certain way.

And Cabaret gave them permission to sort of like step into this alternate reality yes exactly and i think for me that meant that i then was sort of shot into a mainstream sort of american way i'm just a little queer person who's on you know the tonight show and sort of had an access to sort of mainstream middle America being very much able to be myself, but not, um, I haven't said I was, I was the acceptable face of deviance in America. Cause I could go and be sort of wicked and say, say naughty things and say or say shocking things, but I was still sort of that, you know, cute little Scottish boy. So it's actually a really good thing.

I think actually it was sort of, I was thinking about how, you know, for a while in the sort of early 2000s, I felt like the poster boy for queerness because I had that access and there weren't very many people, you know, out and stuff like that. And so it did feel a little lonely and it did feel a bit exhausting to sort of do that.

But it was something, you know, I'm very glad to have been able to do it and had that platform and had that sort of thing. But now it feels less, it feels less. There's lots more people. There's more queer people. They're everywhere. Who knew?

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available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary mayday mayday we've been compromised the pilot's a hitman i knew you were gonna be fun on january 24th tell me how to fly this thing mark walberg you know what's the difference between me and you you're gonna die don't shoot if we need them y'all need a pilot flight risk what's interesting also is that you know like beyond just the exploration of sexuality and identity, the fundamental what that show was about, you know, was just on a political level. And it's commentary on politics and equity and just like the treatment of humanity. You know, if you think about the fact that you did it first in 93, like in the West End, again in 98, in 2014,

and you think about it's more relevant now, like as we're having this conversation today than ever before. And that's why, you know, during, that we closed it this time in 2015. So I just felt it would have been, I mean, the sad thing is that it's that is that side of it is relevant always. There's always some awful persecution going on somewhere. And I just think it was much more...

The idea of... The two things is be vigilant about the rise of extremism and also embrace difference. Both of those things, you know, difference was not being embraced recently in America. It was being damned and banished and persecuted. And extremism was happening right in front of our eyes and being validated and the flames being found. So in a funny sort of way,

I sort of wished we'd been doing it again, but, you know you do it's just it's just it's a sad that's why it's such a good show because it's always relevant sadly but i think it's good to be reminded that you know how quickly it happened in germany and how how it's just been tempered here. I mean, I really feel that. I actually, you know, had sort of really scary things happen to me right before the election here because I'd posted some things on Instagram and got death threats and things like that from the Trump digital army, as they called themselves.

And a couple of things happened that I thought, wow, I don't want to live like this. I don't want to live in a place where I'm fearful for my safety because I've – and I don't think I'm an extremist person. I obviously have my views, but I put, it was a graphic. I reposted someone's graphic and I got all this stuff. And that really scared me.

It went into another level, another sort of dimension. And it was, and then, you know, what happened was I went to Canada to shoot Schmigodin. I was sort of looking back at America from Canada just before the election. It was a really scary thing. I think it is still really scary. We've just got the lid on it right now, but we know it's still there. It's still bubbling away.

I feel like that's what Cabaret is so good about highlighting, is that you've got to be constantly vigilant. I don't take for granted my basic human rights because i feel they could easily if trump had gotten again i don't you know i think it wouldn't be too long before he'd turn on the gays you know he's turning on the trans people you know so it's it's it's a constant i mean i think if you are queer things have got better obviously but you can never take it for granted that you're going to be safe yeah i mean it's almost like the um the fact that that

one show remains ever relevant is um both incredible and a little bit sad um you know it's almost like you know like that the whole idea of you know like creating something for the purpose of hoping that at some point it never needs to be done again. During this whole time, we've just been spanning 20 years in conversation just about your appearances in Cabaret. But there's a lot of other things going on in your life. You're continuing to perform acts. You also end up getting married, I guess, when you're around 30. And it's almost like you're living this dual existence.

Like on the outside, you're having this tremendous professional success. But on the inside, there are a whole bunch of memories that are coming up for you. Like your childhood is sneaking back into your everyday reality and you're remembering some pretty horrific things. And that leads you to sort of like live this dual presence where from the outside looking in, it looks like, wow, like life is fantastic for this guy. And from the inside looking out, you're struggling mightily on literally on the verge of breakdown on any given day. That's happened several times in my life as well. I mean, that was an extreme time, but I sort of feel that's kind of something that happens to a lot of people you know and i think that's why it's good to talk about i think a part of the reason that i'm why i'm doing these books is that i've realized that you almost have a duty

to talk about yourself if you can do it in an entertaining and illuminating way as well but i feel it's sort of a duty for me to say you know what i know look here i am i'm coming look but also right then i was a fucking hot mess and i think that's really important to tell people i think especially in america we don't share enough one of the good things about the pandemic is that's all actually being more aware of mental health and how important it is to check in on other people's mental health but that's that's a new thing so i think it's good for me to say those things to sort of say to people because i'm sure that's i'm sure that's a common thing i'm sure there's people like they're having the most you know the most oh they're probably very happy they they got married or the other baby but they're probably exhausted and stressed and want to kill

themselves you know i mean i'm trying to normalize I suppose, the fact that don't buy into the Hollywood ending, you know, about life. Because it's stupid that you meet someone, you fall in love, and you never have sex with anyone else for the rest of your life. And you're just idyllically happy forever. Nobody's like that. And you never get depressed and you look gorgeous every day. That doesn't happen so i just feel that's what i that's been my my situation many times that i've been having these sort of you know from the outside glorious successes but inside i'm just a hot mess and just depressed and stuff like that

but i do think that's common yeah i think it's more common than people want to acknowledge but i also wonder if it's because and you write about this in a really interesting way. It's like, you know, like when you write about that sort of like season, that moment in your life, which ends up in the, like the dissolution of that marriage and basically a whole bunch of change. Part of being able to move on from that, right, is you've got to not just let go of the circumstances of your life, but you're effectively, it's like a Phoenix process. Like that version of yourself effectively dies and there's a new one that emerges from the ashes of it. And I think we are, and probably understandably terrified of that

process because like the notion of that level of change, of transformation, I think we're so terrified of change, even if it's scary yeah it holds the potential for for something much better like an evolution into something a much better place a much better way of being yes it terrifies us so not only do we not want to talk about it but we don't want to allow ourselves to experience it yeah because of course you're looking at it from the other side and you've come out of it and you've had a you've found a new person you are and you've found this new life and you've hopefully found happiness but that's when you're in it it's just terrifying just i mean change is difficult for everyone i mean that thing i was

talking about earlier about this suddenly you know we're not in the pandemic sort of mode anymore we're back to full pelt and you know we're that i've talked to a few i went to a fitting for this the other day and the people there were saying they're really freaked out about the fact that this change of now being back at full speed. It's hard. But I think when you're actually in a situation like that, you don't, you know, not knowing who you are, you're giving up your entire identity because it kind of,

you can't not, you're sort of physically repulsed by the very existence you have. And you just have to get away from it. Then you think, well, what now? And that was a really insane time for me. But actually, I think it started a thing in what I feel I've sort of tumbled through life a bit more. And that was why back on it and writing this book you know all the times when I sort of say that Hollywood called and took me out of that situation that was part I just sort of said yes to things I just sort of said oh give that a go and actually yeah I'll go there now it's probably not the most sensible thing to do

but I feel like I sort of feel it would be a good idea you know to get out of this situation and I've just sort of done that and I'm still very open to things like that you know like even going to do shmigadoon last year it was like i think i need to get out i need to i've had six months in this house with my husband it's been lovely but it's been good for a change and to get out of america i really wanted to get out of america at that point as well so i did so yeah i think it's a good thing but it's you know it's scary change is scary and that at that point and you know i was third uh 29 or something when my marriage ended my i had a nervous breakdown i had nowhere to live i mean i wasn't homeless but I I moved in with my friend Matthew Bourne actually

who's the choreographer it was a really mental time and I suddenly was doing the James Bond film and doing this film and doing that film and I was having great success but I was just a hot mess and I think that's

I think that's common and I wish more people would talk about it. everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. May's interesting also because you go from that space to, it feels like workplace is really interesting. It plays multiple roles for you, especially when you're in a dark place personally for you. On the one hand, work lets you step into life and be curious and generative and expressive. And on the other hand, it fills so many of your waking minutes

that it serves as, I wonder if part of what it's doing is serving as a distraction from sort of like creating enough space to be with whatever you're feeling and just process it. So it's, it feels almost like a double-edged sword, but I'm wondering if that's what it felt like to you from the inside out at all. Sort of, but no, I like, like like for example that time in the late 90s i just took some i took these months off to just really you know let everything happen when i talk about the thing about hollywood it sort of it takes me out of a situation and puts me in another one that's a little less toxic that's what that's where i feel it's been a benefit for me. It's not that I feel the work is, I mean, it is a distraction, of course.

Anything that you do is a distraction. But it's just sort of removing me from a situation that I think was the most valuable thing. I do feel it's important to, I'm actually someone who, perhaps because of all that stuff, I deal with things head on. I'm good at confrontation.

I don't shy away from things. If there's a problem, I say, let I deal with things head on. I'm good at confrontation. I don't shy away from things. If there's a problem, I say, let's deal with it right now. If I'm angry, I get angry straight away. I don't let it all boil up and sort of suppress it. I deal with things because I was such a little boy and I couldn't, what was happening to me was so, I was unable to process the kind of horror of what was happening. those experiences out of my frontal lobe or whatever you call it but complete i you know and for like 20 years or 15 to 20 years completely did not allow me to access a whole chunk and i still can't remember huge chunks of my childhood i talked to my some friends who you know i talked to my friend alan recently and i still i still it's just a you know, my husband Grant really remembers in great detail all his childhood,

all his school days and everything. I don't. I really don't. My mind has done that to protect me. I think that's incredible. I just can't. So, you know, the idea that you've got that inbuilt thing to stop you, and then it all kind of comes gushing out when you well for me was when i was

going to be potentially be a father and i was thinking about what i would be like as a father and so then all this father stuff came in so i i um i understand how things can be suppressed repressed and actually i never want that to happen again i want to deal with everything head on and at the time and even if that's inappropriate, sometimes I just, I don't care. I don't want to have any, I don't want to leave anything. I don't want to let it lie. Yeah. And it sounds like another, um, one of those seasons for you as, uh, the summer of 2010, where there's sort of like a series of revelations that drop where like, um, you learn something about your dad, you learn something about your grandpa

and it's sort of like the world starts spinning again. But at the same time it starts spinning. And like you just said, I guess by then this philosophy of let's just deal with this head on, like let's go straight into this and figure it out. It leads to, like you basically dive into this. Yes, I did. I had to.

My dad told me I wasn't his biological son. And at the time I was filming that Who Do You Think You Are television show where, you know, they trace your genealogy. And I found out in Malaysia, I found out my grandfather died playing Russian roulette in Malaysia. And so that was, that was, was god that was so insane but I I mean that would be enough finding out that stuff about your granddad and start having to reassess that within your family but the whole dad stuff he came out of the woodwork and said that. And I didn't, I mean, my father had not been in my life for so long. And I was so triggered by him being back in my life again, just by the feeling of his nearness and his sort of mental cruelty,

as well as, you know, it was much more physical cruelty as well when i was a boy but the mental cruelty of this statement which wasn't true was such a huge thing and i had i had to i didn't trust him but you know it was a multitude of emotions i did i did want it to be true i didn't want to be a son i was my brother said you know you're, you're lucky you're not his son. And then we did the DNA test because he said he would do that. He said, my father said he would do a DNA test. And then he said he wouldn't. And then it's just, Oh, I'm not sending my spit to America. I was like, for fuck's sake,

what does that mean? So my brother and I did it, you know, you can do it like that. And so of course we had the same DNA, but so I had to call my father. I was going to call him as soon as I got the information. I was furious. I mean, I was incandescent with rage. I've never been so angry in all my life that he would fuck me about like this. Even after all these years,

he could come back and have so much power over me. And so I was going to call him, but I was in South Africa shooting a thing in the midst of shooting the Who Do You Think You Are? And I had this lovely driver called Hodges and he told me not to call my dad. He said, you're angry, Alan, do it, wait till tomorrow and you do it,

you'll regret it. And so I did, I didn't. I mean, I didn't call him, I took his advice and he was so right and I spoke to my brother and then the next day I called up my father and I said to him you know this is the situation you are wrong and he was like well I'm very surprised to hear that and I was like yes I bet you are and he said the most incredible things to me. Like, you know, this is a man who was, I believe, very mentally ill, was incredibly physically abusive and cruel and violent.

And he said to me, oh, did you not notice we never bonded? And I was like, yes, I did. I did notice that big time. When you were throwing me across a room. Yeah, I noticed. So that it was incredible to have that level of frankness, but also to realize in that phone call that I would never, he was mentally ill.

He was not, he had somehow invented in his head and made it the truth that I was not his son to sort of excuse his behavior and his treatment of myself and my mom but also my brother I didn't make it wasn't logical either so I did it I did it and I told him and I told him I wouldn't you know I actually said I knew he was going to die soon and I said oh we won't you know I was going to say to him okay talk take care I'll talk to you I'll talk to you and I went oh actually I won't that's the most incredible moment I see was I actually realized but don't lie to him you're not going to talk to him again you're never going to speak to him again and I said I'm not I actually won't

but you know take care and so yeah I really seized that moment by the balls and ultimately it was a great thing for me i don't think closure is the right word because i still think why did you think that why did you when did you think it when did you start to pretend that i wasn't your son to make you feel better about the fact that you were such violent violent, you know, psychotic or psychopath. When? But I'm never going to find that out. And I've got to let that go. But I did have the resolution of feeling I had told him what I thought of him.

And how disappointed I was in him. Yeah. I mean, it seems like also that led to, and tell me if I have the timing right. Like it wasn't long after that where there's something in you that changed. Like there's, you've described it as sort of like, you know, like a rebirth, you know, like the really elevating fun and joy as something that is critical in your life. I think you write it. I think the language you use, you made a decision to no longer live by walking away from things and really walking towards things. What brings me joy? What actually? And it's interesting, right? Because as we have this conversation, as I've seen you in all sorts of different settings over the probably recent years, there seems like there is this baked in sense of comfort with who you are and joy. Like it's almost like you said, like joy is a value in my life. Like play fun is a value in my life. And

this is sort of like, it's a compass and it feels, I wonder if that moment was, was like you said, it's not like closure, but it was enough of a closing of a door for you to step into a next season where you could say yes to the things that lifted you up. I think I'd had that before then because I wasn't, I think that happened a little bit before then. But that incident, that him coming back into my life was obviously a huge dent a huge setback it was actually very quick it happened in over a period of weeks but it was a gigantic seismic thing for me and then he died shortly after so that whole thing it wasn't the beginning of that thing you're talking about but it completely reaffirmed all that and made me and i guess what it did actually was made me think i have to talk about this i have to tell people about this

and i have to be open about this it's a big part of my life that is not known so that's really the biggest value of that i think in terms of how my life changed just suddenly talking well not suddenly took me a while to write the book, but changing the narrative about yourself completely and becoming's something that i didn't expect and something that still to this day every day i hear from people about that book and about my about the fact that i did what i did and said what i said and um that was incredible so it wasn't it was less about embracing joy i think i'd already embraced joy and the walking towards stuff was actually before that i think that was really a lot to do with you know i had problems in relationships because i was always trying to fix people and i got used to that i thought that was normal i thought that was familiar and you know that's you can see where

that comes from and i think i just decided to stop that i realized i you know i think that's thing about when you see patterns and of your own behavior and of others, and then you decide to make a, you think, oh, this is the situation again. Here's what I did last time. Oh, look what happened. Maybe I'll do something else this time. That's wisdom. And I realized that I had walked away from an awful lot of things in my life.

And it wasn't just like, oh, I'm changing now. I walked away from things completely. And then I realized that I wanted to walk towards something and that's it's just a mental shift but it changed so much for me absolutely yeah yeah i mean it's interesting because i think that that really helps that informs also i know you write about how you met your husband um you're both 39 years old. And you write, for the first time ever, I entered a relationship having a frank discussion about my needs as well as my shortcomings. So it was like this intentionality to step into something new

from a place of just like, this is who I am. If we're going to do this, let's be open, let's be honest, and let's make something incredible together. Yeah. Or not at all. Or not at all, yeah. And if you can't, totally fine. I understand. I'm not easy.

But also, let's not bite the Hollywood ending. Let's not. Yeah. Because we know it's not. I know anyway. It's not true. Yeah. So as we sit here in this container of good life project,

it feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. At this moment in your life, at this season in the world and where we are right now, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To be honest, to be be open to listen to yourself and see find out what you need and what you want and i mean it's so funny i have this tattoo on my arm it says only connect it's it's from the enforcer and i think that i always think about the way that he connect he try and connect your desire to actually how you live your life in all ways he for him that was a lot to do with his sexuality for me i think it's about making sure that i

completely connect with people making sure that i lived and that's what was great about the time i spent upstate in the pandemic was actually thinking oh i thought a lot of the stuff that i had in my life was what i absolutely relied on and absolutely needed. And when it wasn't there, I found I was much more resourceful than I'd realized. And I thought, oh, I like actually doing this or changing. And so in a way, I think that's been a lesson for me. I've got to kind of listen to myself and connect my desire for whatever to the way that I actually conduct myself in my life.

And then I'll have a good life. Thank you. Thank you, Jonathan. This is really nice. I really enjoyed talking to you. Before you leave, if you love this conversation, safe bet you'll also love the conversation we had with Matthew McConaughey

about what really matters in life. You'll find a link to Matthew's episode in the show notes. Even if you don't listen now, be sure to click and download Thank you. spark, it'll reveal some incredibly eye-opening things about maybe one of your favorite subjects, you, and then show you how to tap these insights to reimagine and reinvent work as a source of meaning, purpose, and joy. You'll find a link in the show notes, or you can also find it at your favorite bookseller now. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. Day, Mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg.

You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary.