Good Life Project - Amanda Palmer | Music in May

Episode Date: May 30, 2019

Amanda Palmer (http://amandapalmer.net/) is a singer, songwriter, playwright, pianist, author, director, blogger and ukulele enthusiast who simultaneously embraces and explodes traditional frameworks of music, theatre, and art. Starting in music as one half of the Boston punk cabaret duo The Dresden Dolls, Palmer's solo album Theatre Is Evil became the top-funded music project on Kickstarter, her 2013 TED talk grew into a New York Times best-selling memoir called The Art of Asking (https://amzn.to/2KejMGD) and she's gathered more than 15,000 patrons who fund her work on Patreon. Her new album, There Will Be No Intermission (https://amzn.to/2WiFtwR), is a no-holds-barred, evocative masterwork that speaks to the full sweep of human experience. And, to cap off our final Music in May offering, Amanda plays uke and sings in the studio, so be sure to stay through the end.-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

and super excited to share this special edition of music in may with our special guest amanda palmer so amanda first came to my attention actually a chunk of years back when she made a major break after a strong career in music leaving her label and went out on her own, launching what soon became the largest music Kickstarter project in history, raising a tremendous amount of money. And since then, taking even an additional approach to crowdfunding her career, going on Patreon and amassing a tremendous number of patrons who help her go out and do the work in the world. She has a new album out called There Will Be No Intermission,

which really kind of blew my mind. It's sort of like her equivalent of Pink Floyd's The Wall. It is this end-to-end, stunning, story-driven, deep-issue, exploring, cinematic, operatic experience. I literally laid on my floor, put headphones on, listened to the whole thing end to end, which I haven't done with any other album in years. In today's conversation, we take a deep dive, not just into this most recent work, but into some really powerful moments of awakening stops along her journey and also cover and some,

some really tough issues for a lot of people, some challenging moments and some areas of controversy. We go and explore things that are really important things that matter. Amanda has strong points of view, and I think it's an important thing to have these conversations in this day and age at the end, as always in our music in May series, stay tuned because she performs live for us. So excited to share this conversation and live performance

with you. And one more quick thing to share with you. We have had such a fantastic response to our additional weekly episode this month that we have decided to continue on with the twice a week format. So now moving forward, you will have twice as much good life project to enjoy every week, two weekly episodes. Be sure to tune in and to check whatever your favorite listening app is for the twice a week episodes. So excited to be able to share so much more wisdom, inspiration, and insight, and amazing guests with you. I'm Jonathan compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, Charge time and actual results will vary. So you're hanging out up in, it's funny, you're in Woodstock right now. One of my oldest friends is actually, he's been on the radio, like was it Radio Woodstock or something like that, since the mid-90s in Woodstock.

But you've only been there for a couple years now, right? It's complicated. We got the house about five or six years ago, but I didn't move in. I didn't actually move into the house basically until the kid was born. And even then I haven't fully moved in. Most of my stuff is still in my old apartment in Boston. I edged in because I didn't want to live there. It was going to be Neil's woodsy man cave. And then our whole life plan got torn apart by having a child. So we kind of, we wound up there by accident, but I've actually really fallen in love with it.

I've embraced and submitted. It's a really interesting blend of people. I mean, it's sort of like, ifsters come up from Brooklyn on the weekends and then you've got the crew that's been there since the 70s hanging out in the middle of town on a regular basis. Yeah. It's not to bad mouth Woodstock because there's a lot of great things about it, but it is kind of like the Florida of upstate New York. It's like where, it's where hippies go to die. But like the difference, like the

alternative, it's like, okay, I'm a certain age. I only have two choices, Woodstock or Florida. If you're going to choose one, I will respect your decision to retire to Woodstock. But also I find it really difficult energy to be around. How come? Why so? Because I'm a city person and I like being around people who are like moving and shaking and getting shit done. And people go to Woodstock to be finished and to move slowly. And there's a,

there's a piece there, but there's also a real kind of lack of human vitality. There's a lot of nature vitality. And that's sort of just what I've been focusing on to just make it through. It's like, it's, it's gorgeous. It's peaceful. It's a great place to have a child, but you'll never run into someone by accident doing an incredible project that day there. It's kind of funny, actually, because Dave ties into why we're sitting here in a really weird way, which is that, so growing up, he was also the guy who would have the parties every Friday night. Yeah. And I remember distinctly hanging out in his basement with a couple of bandanas draped over lamps.

For ambiance. Right, right, of course. That was the fancy stuff. You know, like there's smoke filled the room and I'm lying on the floor and Pink Floyd's The Wall is playing. And you're staring at your hands in disbelief that they exist. Maybe or maybe not. I have hands. Oh my God. Oh my God, where did they come from?

And they're made of, and they're moving. Right. Just like the first time I heard that, listening literally like one end to the other one. The wall? Yeah. The best record ever. And so here's the tie-in. Dave also lives in Woodstock now.

And your new record, I listened to it end to end. And I was just like closing my eyes with the headphones on. Did you get stoned first? I did not. Damn. And I was like, I have not heard a record like this. And I was like, I'm trying to remember when I heard something where there's literally this exquisite through line that goes on, that brings everything together. It's operatic.

It's deep. It's intense. It's operatic, it's deep, it's intense, it's story-driven, it's melodic. And the whole thing is like, you don't listen to one song, you listen to the whole thing because it's like you're on a journey. I was like, what albums have been? And it took me right back to just lying on Dave's floor listening to The Wall. The Wall is still one of my all-time favorite records and i never get sick of it yeah and i feel like there's some there are like some cornerstones of my musical artistic upbringing and that's one of them and sergeant pepper's one of them another end-to-end album yeah you will never get tired of that but that's also like if they hadn't put those if they hadn't put that beginning and penultimate song on you know the sergeant pepper's theme song basically it that whole record wouldn't feel that beginning and penultimate song on,

the Sgt. Pepper's theme song, basically, that whole record wouldn't feel the same. They're really saying, we're taking you into a universe. Come with us and stay with us, and then we'll send you off. And The Wall, same thing. I don't know how much of a headspace the writers were in when they thought, okay, let's make this quote unquote concept album called The Wall.

It never really works like that. You know that there's some songs on The Wall where they were like, oh, I need a dirty woman could technically fit into this little spot. But, you know, I think as a theater person, I like thinking that way. And the grand irony is that a lot of these songs on this album were never supposed to go on any album. When I started my Patreon three, four years ago, I thought I was going to be forever unchained from the shackles of the album cycle and the music industry. And I was never going to put out a record again. So it was all like thing based. It was all just going to be here. I just did this.

I just did this. Thank you for paying for it here. I have another thing. It was going to be like a podcast, except with songs instead of podcast episodes. And I was like, the album is dead. No one's buying records anymore. Why should I do this? Why should I go do the media dog and pony show every couple of years? Like I have my community. I can just broadcast, you know, the same way I'm sure you don't think once a year, like which podcasts am I going to select to put in the best 10 podcasts album? Like you just don't, you just put it out and then it's done. And then I changed my mind. And then it was all wrong. But what happened? I mean, what was it that made you say like, no, there's actually something substantial. A couple of things happened. So I mean, what was it that made you say like, no, there's actually something substantial? A couple of things happened.

So I had, now that I look back at it, I had about six or seven songs that wound up on the record. You know, they were already fed a completes. They'd gone out into the universe in demo form or in live form or whatever. And I think two things happened at the same time that were really important. One was I kept talking with my beloved friend, producer, engineer, John Congleton. And we hadn't worked together since I made my last big record in 2012, Theater is Evil. And I kept asking him, when can we get together to do recordings or maybe make an EP? Or could I just come to him and we could

give one of these songs the royal treatment? And he would keep hanging up the phone on me saying, call me when you're ready to do an album. Call me when you want to do a record. I'm only going to do a record with you. And I kept arguing and I was like, John, you're living in the past. I'm not doing records anymore. I'm just, it's not a thing. And he was like, okay, great. Call me when you're ready to do an album. Click. And I knew why. I knew that he wasn't just saying that to be an asshole. I knew that there was a philosophical artistic reason for him delivered, you know, hanging up the phone. And I also noticed, and this is where things get a little creepy and sleazy to talk about, and I don't like talking about it, but I also do because I know that just even the discomfort in discussing it is why I should probably discuss it.

Just putting out offerings and songs to my Patreon community, which is large, you know, I have 15,000 patrons at this point. But I also noticed that even if I sent press releases to the grand media powers, the Rolling Stones, the New York Times, the Guardians, whatever, none of them would cover single song offerings. Occasionally they would. But I also noticed that I was exhausting them by saying another thing and I've done another thing. And I was just like, man, if the mainstream media is going to talk about the issues and talk about me as a writer, they only play one game and I have to send them a quote unquote record. So that happened and I went, oh, okay. And then I also took a step back. And as soon as I started thinking, okay, if I had to make a record, what would it be?

And then it became very obvious to me that not only did I have a collection of songs that really sat well together, but if I was going to make a record, there were a couple of gaps or holes in that collection of songs that were really sticking out to me, that were going to be a challenge for me to attack and write. Like if I basically wanted to put out a memoir record of the last seven years of my life, I wasn't going to be able to get away with not including a song about abortion and including a song about miscarriage that I hadn't written yet. And when I sat down and looked at all of those things at the same time, and also looked at the fact that I now had this huge subscribership who had my back,

that this album was already sold out of the gate because I already really had my community there to support whatever the material was gonna be. I just thought, okay, all signs are pointing towards finish a record that you didn't know was a record. Write the songs that need to be on it and they have to be good. Tell the truth. And then I was sort of off and running.

And I'd actually have to say the fourth or whatever it is at this point where the fifth ingredient was actually going to see Hannah Gadsby's show in London. Seeing Nick Cave's show and listening to his record that he released after his son died. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. reminding me like right like especially right now especially right now like you have to go out and just tell the truth and get out of your comfort zone and out of your fan cave and back into the real world like you're gonna have to go on tour you're gonna have to do other people's podcasts it's time to get out of your comfort zone and if you're really going to talk about these things, really go talk about them. Yeah. So I didn't see Nick Cave. Hannah Gadsby, Springsteen's, for those who don't know, he just wrapped, it was about a year and a half or so, a solo show on Broadway.

Super stripped down, deeply powerful, which is interesting because this album for you feels to me stripped down and powerful. Yeah. So did those influence that approach? Or did that happen after a while? No, I mean, I think there's maybe a subtle influence at work there. But I mean, I knew from the minute I selected these songs that I was not going to dress them up, that these songs needed to be naked and uncostumed, and they needed to be produced but without any flash, like no giant orchestra string section.

They needed subtle, supportive production. So there's not a single song on the record that doesn't have extra overdubs on top of the piano or on top of the ukulele. But basically the ukulele or the piano is the star of the show and my voice and the song that's telling the story. And then if there is, you know, if there are extras, which there always are, you almost don't notice them. Like you don't notice that there's a teeny little bell overdub. You don't notice that there's a teeny little bell overdub. You don't notice that there's a teeny little organ just supporting this one section.

And the whole album was built that way. And that actually brings us full circle because I finally called John Congleton back and I said, guess what? It's your lucky day. We're going to make a record. And not only is it going to be a record, it's going to be the kind of record that we talked about wanting to make for years, which is a record that you put on and you listen to the whole thing. And it's one vibe. It's not the usual Amanda Palmer, Dresden Dolls, like crazy eclectic, one of these, one of these fast song, slow song, loud song, quiet song. This album is going to be a mood. And these are some of the saddest songs I've ever written in my life. So we're basically going to make the saddest record in the world, and we have to make it really well. We can't phone this one in. These songs are too personal and too powerful. And then when we got into the studio, it was just a really interesting challenge. Like,

how do you make a record this simple, this carefully? Yeah. Cause there's a lot in there. I mean, both musically and lyrically that, um, I know you're no stranger to being exposed to other people and other people's opinions. I love it. There's a lot. You guys can see the faces. Yay. This is so deeply personal. I mean, everything you do is deeply personal, but this is seven years of your journey, both your own personal experiences and your witnessing and supporting other people along the way who've gone through different things. And to make this and to put it out

and to not back away and to say it needs to go there also potentially exposes you to a whole new world of feedback, quote, feedback. And especially if you know part of the goal here is, hey, I realize that part of the game here is to be relevant and to have those traditional big media outlets talk about you. It has to be something big and substantial.

Now it's potentially them coming back at you with their interpretation or misinterpretation of what you're trying to put in the world. Yeah, or in the worst case scenario, like a full boycotting of coverage, which has happened with a couple of the big outlets. And that sort of stuff used to bother me so much more. But, you know, it used to bother me so much more for a good reason, which is I didn't have my own army of understanding, you know, compatriots. It feels so powerful nowadays to have like the authentication and the recognition from the people, like, you know, in crowdfunding, you know, it's the crowd. There's an actual crowd of people who, despite what the mainstream media outlets say or don't say, have my back and

really believe in me. They really believe in my voice, my artistic voice, my opinion, you know, whatever, my addition to the cosmic conversation. And, you know, I used to have that on a small scale because I could look out at a show and say like, well, there's a couple hundred people here, they're here for a reason. But it feels like a whole different level of authentication to have 15,000 people plonking down their credit cards and saying, we just want to hear what you have to say. We don't care if the Guardian or the New York Times is going to cover it or not. Like we want to hear what you have to say. We don't care if the Guardian or the New York Times is going to cover it or not. Like, we want to hear what you have to say. Talk to us, not through them, just talk to us. And especially, and so many women, I mean, the majority of my

fan base now, you know, not the vast majority, but the majority is women who feel underrepresented in media, who feel like their stories aren't well told, who feel like, you know, the New York Times doesn't necessarily have their back in the way they cover things and what they choose to discuss and how. Nothing against the New York Times, I read it religiously. But I, you know, you also see how careful they are around certain topics and the feathers they don't want to ruffle. So I feel a kind of power that I didn't used to. And that power doesn't make me complacent. It's the opposite. It makes me more excited to lean into the places where I'm scared and where I want to be brave and where I find myself about to hold my tongue. And then I'm like, no. If I have this kind of support, and I have all of these human beings who want to hear it, who want me to be not afraid, I owe it to them. I owe it to them to lean in and write this song about abortion, or to talk about my miscarriage, or to unapologetically say the thing that's maybe not popular.

So we talked about your patrons a whole bunch of different times now, but we kind of jumped into the deep end of the pool pretty quickly. Who are these people and how do you end up with 15,000 people who are waiting and funding you to be brave? Well, I did a large Kickstarter in 2012 and that over 25,000, just about 25,000 people supported it, just under 25,000. And I had done various forms of fancy pre-orders and little Kickstarters and stuff up until that point. And I had been totally independent off my major label since 2008. So I knew from trying to deal with my community directly.

And I had such a shitty experience on a major label that I never wanted to go back. But doing a Kickstarter was not only, it was optically confusing because it actually didn't make very much money. Because I over deliver and tend to want to over deliver in the packaging and bells and whistles department. And I also traveled all over the world for two years delivering experiences and parties and stuff, which was expensive. You know, including like going to South Africa for a single house party, going to Israel for a single house party in the middle of a tour and stuff. And it was wonderful because it was, I, even as I was doing it, I was looking at it in business speak, you would call it a loss leader. I was like, this is, this is an exercise and an experience for me in this community of 25,000 people to prove that we're in it. We're

in a relationship now and that I'm going to deliver and that they're going to hold me. But I also thought this isn't really a sustainable system. I don't want to do a new Kickstarter once a year. It would crush me and it would exhaust my fan base because they don't want to be asked once a year. It's like that thing where you tune into NPR once a year and you're like, no, it's fundraising season. It's like, I love you. I really do. I love you. Just go back. I'll be back in two weeks. to everybody once a year. It's exhausting for me and it's exhausting for them. There's got to be a better way. Because I know you guys, and I know that you're just going to be in for every project and you're not going to want to, you know, you're not going to want to just have to be asked again and again and again and again, will you help me? Will you help me? Will you help me? Will you help

me? And right around the time I was struggling with that, the CEO of Patreon, who was a pal, a musician pal of mine, called me and said, I'm starting this thing. It's basically like a Kickstarter, except people are in forever. Will you do it? And I was like, yes. And so basically, it's a subscription to an artist. It's a subscription. Patreon just means subscribing to a podcaster or an artist or a journalist, a painter, anyone. It's old school patronage. It's someone saying, I'm going to give you $3 a month just to do your thing, whatever your thing is. And I'll take my rewards in whatever cosmic, digital, physical, oral package they come in. And it has really, it's blown open my brain creatively because I'm now supported by 15,000 people who are like, bring it on, do whatever you want.

Here's a couple bucks. We want to see what you have to say. We want to see what you have to make. It could be a song, a video, a podcast, an essay, a poem. You know, some of the things that I offer cost $500 to create and manufacture. Some of them cost 60 grand. They're basically just supporting me to be a working artist with a small staff. And it's mind-blowingly liberating. Yeah.

Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is?

You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Is there another side also, though?

Do you ever feel, on one hand, yes, I can be brave, I can do exactly what I'm here to do, and they have my back. And on the other hand, I am responsible or beholden to 15,000 people to do right by them. Did you ever feel that it's actually a constraint on what you want to do? No, I never feel like it's a constraint on what I want to do because I have tested these patrons time and time again. I'll give you a great example, actually.

So the first thing that, before I give you my example, the first thing that came to mind when you said that is, it reminds me a lot of marriage. And it's like you asking me, like, well, you got married to Neil Gaiman, but like, do you ever feel like it's just a pain in the ass and like, you have to be responsible to this other person? like you're not just free and solo and single and you can just literally do what you want without having to be accountable to this partner? And it's like, well, yeah, but also I got married. I signed the contract. In the cost-benefit analysis, there's no answer. I just know that I made that choice. And that there are beautiful upsides to that kind of commitment. There's an amazing love that grows and blossoms out of two people having one another's backs. And I feel the same way about my Patreon.

I did a post to my Patreon yesterday morning. One of the things I've been doing lately instead of sitting down to type out my blogs is I've just been recording my voice. I've been just rambling into my phone because I'm a busy mom and sometimes I wake up at 7.30. I have 15 minutes before my kid gets up and I'm like, I have so much to say. It's in my head right now. And I don't have an hour and a half to sit down and write this blog and type it out and spell check it and edit. But I can talk into my phone for 10 minutes and then upload it. So that's what I've been doing. And it's been saving me a ton of time. So I recorded this blog for my patrons yesterday saying I'm chewing on this question and I just need input and feedback.

I wrote this poem last week and read it aloud at a charity in Boston. And the backstory is a little complicated, but I'll try to summarize. I wrote a poem in 2013, a few days after the Boston bombing, that sort of dared to empathize with Jokar, the 17-year-old kid who, you know, had murdered all these people and then was chased by the Boston cops for a few days and there was a lockdown in the city. And this was all happening in my neighborhood. I'd crossed a line and that dedicating a poem to a terrorist was crossing a line and that compassion was great, but there are people that we don't have compassion for, him included. A sentiment that I deeply disagreed with at the time. But it was a very rough period of my life because the bombing itself, which happened a few blocks from my apartment and then getting locked down in our house and then writing the poem and then getting called a terrorist sympathizer by the right wing and a tasteless narcissist for writing a poem too soon

by the left wing. I had already been kicked down that year because of my Kickstarter and bomb threats were coming into my website and it was just a really rough time. And I felt sort of betrayed by my own city. It was a very dark feeling. And you know, that's five years ago now. And I got invited by Mass Poetry, which is this local nonprofit in Boston, to read a poem at this charity benefit. And I thought, wow, if I was ever going to say something about this and address it, now would be the time. It's also coming up on the anniversary of the bombing. And I thought, ooh, yeah, that people are going to think you're tasteless. But I made the leap anyway. And I wrote the poem and Neil helped me edit it down. And I read it at the event.

And it was very moving to read it. And people were really moved by it. People came up to me afterwards saying, when are you going to publish poetry charity who actually inspired me to do it. It would be this beautiful cyclical thing. But is it tasteless? I'm constantly putting my foot in it. And I just went to the people. I said, you, you all, you 15,000, you tell me what to do. Should I publish this? If I publish it, should I charge for it?

And then I watched this gorgeous conversation erupt. People saying, don't publish it. It's a little too dangerous. Most people, the vast majority, 95% of people saying, yes, publish it, charge for it. It's still your artwork. Give the money to charity. That all sounds amazing. And then a few people saying, oh, giving the money to charity makes it seem like you're not standing by it. Just keep the money. Like, you know, this huge community conversation. But the thing is, it's a conversation. You know, it's a reminder to all of those people and to me that I'm not really in charge. I'm kind of a vessel. I'm an artist. It's a service job. I'm not there to just have my ego stroked and cash my check and go home and go laughing all the way to the bank because I pulled one over on everyone because I managed to be an artist

making money. I want to help. I want to be of service. I want to write a poem that's going to move someone, that's maybe going to change someone's mind. It's going to maybe make someone, you know, like make that quarter turn in their heart to think a different way. That's our job. We're artists. Like that's what we're supposed to do. And being able to not just do it alone in a room and then pray that like when I release something, it's going to land right or it's going to fall right. And having this huge group of people there, not just to have my back, not just to give me money, not just to say, hey, I'm a fan of Amanda Palmer, but to kind of really be a part of that process, like a community that's trying to put something forth into the world to contribute something artistically.

That sort of feels like my main accomplishment. You know, I feel like a great songwriter. I feel like I'm writing better poetry. I feel like I'm writing better books. I feel like I'm just getting better at the job of life and all that. But this Patreon and the ability to have a community that discusses so openly and deeply and compassionately, that almost feels like the high watermark of my career. Yeah. Do you have a line when you bring them into the conversation

where the contribution starts and ends, meaning there's the creative process, which is you and your collaborators. And then there's the, what do I do with what I've made process? Is there a line at which, and it sounds like, you know, for the most part, you do the creative side with you, you know, like whoever it is in the studio with you, whoever's writing. And then once you've got a thing made or pretty close to made, then you turn to the community and say, hey, I'm not sure about this. Or maybe you just put it out because you know,

I'm good with it. Do you ever wonder about sliding the line back to a point where they actually become a part of the creative process? Well, they have. And that's such a great question. And it's such a complicated question because as the artist, I actually have a very, very strong line that I've drawn that I don't let anybody cross, which is, you know, there's all the business I do. There's all the chatting I do. There's the communication, there's the community, there's the blogs or this, that, the other thing.

But when it comes to the art that I make, the words that I choose, the chords that I choose, which song goes on the record, that's sacrosanct because the minute I let, you know, my community, the patrons actually decide about my artwork, that's where I would see a weak link in the chain. supporting me to be an artist and to make the bold decisions of an artist. I didn't get to where I am by committee. I got to where I am because I'm a really strong-willed, opinionated, unique, bizarre artist who has written strange songs, who has chosen strange words, who's forged her own path. And while I love feedback and I love input, when I go in to write a song, that's my time. That's just me. That's me digging into the bowels of my creative well and looking to see what's inside me. And it's almost like the flip side to being very open to feedback or collaboration in another realm. The flip side is that when I go to write a song,

no one fucking tells me what to do. And that's why I'm me. And that's why people believe in my voice, because I'm uncompromising in the art department. The funny thing is, I found a beautiful way of incorporating feedback and input from my patron community in a different way. So as opposed to sort of saying, hear the lyrics to the song that I wrote about abortion, what do you guys think? Should I change that? Should I change that? Which is something I would never do in a billion years. I knew I was heading into the studio on a certain day this winter to write a song about abortion. I didn't know how I was going to write it. I didn't know what tack I was going to choose. I didn't know anything except that I needed that song to be on the record.

And I wrote a blog to my patrons asking a simple question. If you could say one thing to a woman who was on her way to an abortion today, you could send her off with one sentence, what would that sentence be? What would you tell her? And I mean, just reading the 1500 comments that came in brought me to tears because the amount of compassion and empathy and strength that came out of my, the voices on my Patreon was overwhelming. And it's not like I cut and paste lyrics out of those comments, but it was almost like this tide rose up and then I stuck my ship on out in all of those blog comments. When I went into the studio the next day, I found that song so easy to write, not because I had stolen lyrics or words or, you know, or said, hey, for 500 bucks, you can write a line of my song, which I would consider sort of tasteless and sort of a breaking of the artistic contract. But I took the community, like the actual commune, everyone sitting around that campfire and sharing their story

and speaking to their sisters and their former selves, and I took all of that, and I kind of, like a fulcrum, I took all of that sentiment and I kept it in a place that sort of then spewed out the song. And that's the way I love working. Because by the, you know, by the time I had read all the 1500 comments on the blog and I had sat myself down in the chair at the piano, I was alone, but I wasn't really alone. And making art in that way to me is so, so exciting. And also to me feels so old fashioned. Like in today's pop music and the way the music industry works,

we forget, like we forget why we made songs and music in the first place. It was never about money. It was never about selling something from me to you. It was never about ego. It was about what people can do for each other. What music can do when you transmit from one person to the other that just words can't do, that just a documentary film can't do. Music is a magic when you get it right, when you say it right, when you sing it right. And I feel like we've lost the plot so hard in the commercialization of stuff and the sales and the charts and the popularity contest that we forget that at its base, music is a gift that human beings can give to one another, that it's this amazing space where we can, you know, regard each other and reflect with each other with this incredible medium,

you know, our brain's ability to recognize music in a way that it doesn't recognize everything else. So I love that part of the job. I love that I get to do it and that I get to be that musician for everybody. It's interesting. The song you were talking about. Voicemail for Jill. For Jill. So when I was listening to that song, and the song, you know, it's essentially you sharing a message for a friend back home who you can't be there with who's going through this. And I'm listening to it, and it is a powerful, powerful, hard song. I got really emotional listening to it. And I was like, what am I responding to as I'm listening to this? Because I've never had this conversation. I've never known. And then I was like,

oh, wait a minute. There's no way that I reached the age of 53 in this world, not having known so many women who have faced this moment, this decision, this day. And I've never had this conversation or anything like it because nobody's ever turned to me in that moment. Oh, right. And I was like, oh. Right. And you know that one in four women in America has had an abortion. Yeah.

And you know them. I'm like, that is what I'm responding to right now. Wow. Wow. That's really powerful. And I think, you know, when I play this song live for a theater of 2,000 people or whatever, that is, and I see the comments on knowing that, you know, at least in the Amanda Palmer community, like the mess is okay. Like it's okay to comment and go, I just don't really know what I'm supposed to contribute here. I just don't even really know what I'm supposed to say. You know, and plenty of men have gone through abortions in so many ways, right? You know, they've been the partner,

they've been the brother, they've been the friend who took their friend to the abortion, you know. I know a lot more women who will be open about their abortion stories than men. But what's so fascinating to me is that there's two layers here, right? Like there are women, gazillions of them who have to keep their abortion stories under wraps. And then like level two is, you know, all of the men who are attached to that abortion or were or weren't part of that story. This is the really difficult tightrope that we're walking right now because men are being called on to be allies and they're being called on to be responsible. But so many men feel like this just isn't their story to tell. It's their partner's story.

It's their wife's story. It's their girlfriend's story. It's their wife's story. It's their girlfriend's story. It's their sister's story. And I think it can be so difficult for men to know when they're even allowed to speak about this. Because as we know, anything that has to stay in the dark eats away at us, all of it, doesn't matter what it is. And for all the men who've gone through the emotional roller coaster of being part of an abortion story and never telling anyone about it, that stays part of the dark. It eats away. it's this sort of like niggling discomfort that's always there. And so, you know, my dream is that once the carpet gets lifted up and women start sharing these stories and it's normalized and, you know, I don't think abortion should ever be something that we quote unquote celebrate. But we have to be honest about it. We have to be able to support women.

We have to be able to share it. We have to be able to share it. We have to be able to just be you do about it, is people have strong opinions on both sides. But your approach was, let me speak to the human experience of what's going on here and have the conversation that's never shared in any sort of public way in the way that I would love to see it unfold. Yeah. And that's why writing this song took me so many decades to figure out how to write. It's like, how do you write about abortion? How do you get it right? How do you make sure you're not too sentimental or too preachy or too political or too on one side or the other? And every time I would sit down to try to write about this subject, I'd just draw a blank. There's no right way to do it. But that kept me at it. Like that challenge, I was like,

no, there's got to be a way to do it. There's got to be a way to get this voice right. Who's speaking? Who gets to speak? And I mean, I wrote this song right after being in Dublin for the referendum vote, just this explosion of truth and women just going like, we've had it. We're just going to be honest about our experiences. referendum for abortion with an overwhelming vote yes to legalize it and to support women while looking back at america with the you know abortion rights being slowly and you know subtly just correct taken away taken away taken away chipped away at quietly swept off the table and you know there's there's not as much outrage as there should be. There's outrage, but, you know, it's a loud landscape out there right now. And so while everyone is, you know, arguing and clamoring about Brexit and the border wall, not that those aren't important, but I'm not sure people are aware of the danger to women and women's health right now. Because abortion laws, you know, in Georgia the other day, there was a law passed that, you know, that women who don't even know they're pregnant are going to be saddled with the decision of needing to travel out of state to get an abortion. And that's, we're backsliding, we're not taking care of each other.

And so I hope going out, doing this tour and putting this material out there will at least remind people of the human side of it, the human cost. Yeah, you've never been someone who shies away from strong beliefs, whether it's this, whether it's all forms of diversity, inclusivity, the difference in the way that people are treated,

creative process. I feel like a lot of what you have done over the years, even from the earliest days in Dresden Dolls, but I feel like, especially with this album, especially in the last 10 years, it's almost like you're entering the emotional state of the people who would come to your concerts or listen to your music.

You have this intuitive or developed ability to enter and understand the conversation that they're not even telling themselves consciously, but they're experiencing emotively and giving that language and saying all those things that maybe you feel a sense of brokenness, a sense of shame around.

Actually, you're not alone. I can't tell you whether it's right or wrong, but what I can tell you is you're not alone. I feel like you don't have to be fixed. I feel like that's the most, you know, when you decide to be an artist, it's almost like the most sacred part of your calling, your sacred duty, no not alone and not crazy and that their experiences

are not unique to them, at least in terms of, am I the only one feeling this? Am I nuts? Am I the only one suffering like this? And especially nowadays, there's such an illusion that we're connected, you think are crazy and these experiences that you're having that you feel ashamed of or that you feel the necessity to hide or that you really do imagine you're the only one without your shit together and that everyone else has it my my job as an artist is to remind you that you're absolutely not alone. And really, that's every artist's job. If you pare it all down, cross-medium, whether you're a painter, a novelist, a sculptor, that's the base ingredient of every artistic offering. You're not alone. We're all here together. We're all experiencing this. You're not alone.

We're all here together. We're all experiencing this. You're not alone. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

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On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot if we need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk.

Speaking about not being alone, you brought up Neil a handful of times. Who's your husband, Neil Gaiman, and who's a writer, well-known, has his own tremendous sort of canon of work. There's a video, I can't remember where I saw it. I think it was 2008, about 10 years ago. A little black and white video.

It looks like it was shot on somebody's cell phone. I think it was you after a 10 years ago. A little black and white video. It looks like it was shot on somebody's cell phone. I think it was you after a show at the Cloud Club backstage. It's you. That's the weekend we met. Is that really? Yeah. It's Neil sitting in a chair. You're like hanging out in your underwear with your ukulele.

Yeah. And you're playing and singing him. Creep by Radiohead. Creep by Radiohead. And you're like three feet apart. And the camera's on the back of you and it's on his face. He is gone. He is somewhere else.

Smitten. Yeah. What was happening in that moment? Oh, God. What a moment to unpack. Well, if I'm going to be completely honest about it, and why would I be anything else? Neil and I were both in other relationships when that happened. Neil had just gotten divorced, but he and his ex had been separated for a long time. He was dating a couple of people, one of whom he was staying with in my apartment in Boston. I was with my now ex-boyfriend, Michael, at the time. And I had just met Neil, and I,

of course, wanted to impress him. And I wanted to impress him in the way that Amanda Palmer impresses people, which is like, you know, being shameless and bohemian. And the person taking that video was my 75-year-old landlord with his night vision camera. And he's legendary in my life. And I even write about him in my book. He's a great, bizarre, thinker, eccentric outsider artist, patron, early patron of mine and many of my friends, because he bought these buildings in Boston and kept the rent dirt cheap so that he could provide inexpensive housing for artists. And in a funny way, that performance was also for him. It was for Lee because Lee lives for such moments as, ah, look, you know, there's an artist and there's another artist. And one of them is in her underwear and one of them is acting bashful.

And look, she's got her ukulele. I must run and get my camera. And, you know, and then there's also, like, I think in my mind I was playing, I was already playing the tape going like, oh, my boyfriend is going to think I'm being way too flirty with Neil Gaiman. But, oh, it's like, look, it's Neil Gaiman. I've just met him. He's got a girlfriend. I've got a boyfriend, and I'm flirty with everybody. And of course, this is allowed because everything's allowed and we're all very free and open. But, you know, it's funny when you look back at my early, even our early email exchanges, Neil and I were, we were fascinated by each other and we were both really trying to impress each other, even like well before we started dating, because we. We were both the celebrities in our own little cult planets. And I think got to do this really sort of funny waltz with each other where, you know, we couldn't really play the fame card on the other one to impress them because we knew that trick. We both knew that trick and how we could play it on other people. So we had to impress each other in other ways.

So you've got to dig deeper into the well here. Yeah, but I mean, Neil and I, I mean, the longer we stay together, the more fascinating I find it to look back at those early years and go like, oh my God, what was going on? What were we thinking? But I can see what we were thinking.

We were both really charmed and fascinated by one another, and we were not each other's type, which I think was a really important part of the attraction, because I had a type, and Neil had a type, and we had both been serially dating our type and failing. And then we were confronted with each other and we were like, oh, you're not even my type. I don't do things like you. But our fascination with each other sort of kept pulling us towards each other. And I think that it's that fascination that's also kept us together and created the bedrock of our relationship, which has had, against all odds, has actually had staying power. We've been together for 10 years now. Yeah. It's like the glue and the friction simultaneously. Absolutely. And I mean, especially back in those days, and even now, there's a real mutual recognition. We're very, very different, but we're also at our core, we're very similar. Our main drivers, why we're motivated to do this and that, why we're motivated to make art, to share, to expose or not expose ourselves. It's so funny to me because our mediums are very different, but our core drivers are the same.

Yeah. And also the way you interact with the world at large seems radically different. Except that it's incredibly similar. I mean, and that's the thing. Well, because Neil really plays himself off as an introvert. Right. But he's actually the one with twice as many Twitter followers answering everyone's questions all day.

He just does them in a- It's all marketing. Well, but it's not. It's connecting. Yeah, yeah. And Neil desperately loves and needs affirmation and connection in a way that I could only recognize because I need it myself. And when I watch his way of doing it versus my way of doing it, it's sort of like that thing where we have 99.999% of our DNA in common.

It's that teeny percentage that makes you look like you and me look like me. It sort of feels the same way. Neil can't put his phone down and stop answering people's questions on Twitter. And he constantly wants to be part of the conversation and see what people are saying and respond and communicate and connect and connect and help and connect. He just does it with the persona of a baffled, shy British man. And I do it with the persona of a shameless, unapologetic American woman. But we're kind of doing the same thing all day. Different styles.

Yeah. We're just as engaged. We just have different voices. It's an interesting way of like, now that I think about it that way, I'm like, huh, yeah, I see that. Okay. um three years ago you become a mom also not long after you also start to head out to the burbs the burbs the woods the dark the woods the wilds would stop when you think about how your life has changed over the last three years um i'm always really fascinated too. And when you have somebody whose primary form of contribution is deep creative process,

which very often requires a lot of time in your head or in your cave. And then you bring a family into the conversation, into the experience of life. And because both parents are channeling that same process independently, how does the need to sort of like go off, be in your head, be in your cave, be collaborating completely outside of being, you know, like a mom, being a partner,

has that changed the way that you approach the work? Yeah. It's given me a sense of urgency and my discipline has gone through the roof. I just don't faff around the way I used to. I have finally tamed my procrastination problems. Because I've, I mean, and I've even written about it, I've struggled with productivity and procrastination issues for years. And I mean, anytime I tell this to anyone who knows what my output for the past 20 years are, like, I just can't believe it. But I mean, but of course, like I'm really hard on myself. And I mean, that's sort of like the, that's the like raised by stoic New Englanders side of me where like I was raised, I was raised to be a Puritan, like you must be productive and helpful and humble in the eyes of God and God damn it, like, or we get out of our community. I don't waste a second nowadays. I really,

and it's really reflected in this record, Drowning in the Sound and The Ride and Death Thing and Voicemail for Jill, which I consider the, really the, the, the standout stellar tracks on the record, they were all written in under two hours in one sitting. And the ride's like a little bit minutes long or something like that also. I, yeah, I wrote, well, I mean, I would argue that it's that long cause I didn't have time to edit it down. I'm for real. I mean, the same with The Mother's Confession, which was written in, I think I wrote that song in less than three hours and it is 10 and a half minutes. And, you know, in the old days, I might've edited that song down to six or seven minutes and shaved

and tweaked and economized, but I just didn't because I didn't have time. And also I demoed that song and put it out on my Patreon immediately. But the ability to actually adhere to the first thought, best thought, do not waffle, do not second guess, just go. Just like put on your artistic jogging gear and just like kick yourself out of the house and go for a jog. Don't wonder whether you're supposed to go for a jog.

Don't check the weather and wonder if you're going to be uncomfortable. You just, you're training for a marathon and you're just going out and you're doing your 45 minute jog. That's it. And I haven't been this disciplined in my life, but I've seen the necessity. It's either, you know, I've either had to be disciplined like that in the artistic creative department or not and have, you know, and have very little to show for the time that I can clock right now as an artist, if I want to be a good mom and actually

spend time with my kid. And I also wonder if it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy placebo effect, because so many parents told me, you know, as I went through a long period of ambivalence about whether or not to have a child, and I talk about that period of ambivalence at length in my stage show, because of this exact issue, I just didn't want to give away my creative time to a child. And I didn't want to feel guilty and selfish about that. I was like, it's just a choice. Do I want to be an artist? Do I want to be a mother? Can I be both? Is being both going to feel like a compromise? Is it going to feel too difficult? How am I going to do it? And so many mothers especially said, you're just, you're going to be shocked at how disciplined you become. And I wonder if just their wand of

authenticating permission gave my brain a kind of a running head start that after I had the child, I went, okay, this is it. This is where you become a disciplined human being. You're not going to waffle. You're not going to flip through Facebook. You're just going to sit down and you're going to write the song and it's going to be good and you're going to do it fast. And the Patreon also really lit a fire under me because I don't think that these two things happening at the same time were a coincidence. Not only could I sit down, tie myself like, you know, Ulysses to the mast of the piano and write a song fast, I could get paid for it the next day. Which, if you're an artist, there's a real motivator in the instant gratification, not just of sharing your work with an audience immediately and getting the pat on the head that you made a good watercolor.

But also, you know, money is real. Knowing that I'm going to get paid to write a good song and that I'm going to want the song to be good so that I don't feel like a jerk for collecting the money that falls into the cash register. And then knowing that that's going to pay my rent, pay for my kids' clothes, pay for my staff, pay to keep the lights on. That shit is real. That is a real motivating factor. And so all of this happened around the same time I started my Patreon while I was pregnant. And I knew that it was going to open up a really mysterious door of liberation. And now four years in, I'm just starting to see how immense the impact has been on my productivity, on my discipline, on my bravery, on the expansion of my voice and what I'm willing to say, because I know I'm not going to have to,

I'm never going to have to take this record under my arm to Roadrunner Records on Broadway and convince Dave and Marketing that this album is worth putting into the world. I get to just do it. ever going to have to take this record under my arm to Roadrunner Records on Broadway and convince Dave and Marketing that this album is worth putting into the world. I get to just do it. Yeah. It's been kind of interesting to me because sort of looking at the scope of your career and zooming the lens out a little bit and just having some time to sit here and talk to you and listen to what you've been creating lately, it feels like not just the album, but you are sort of in a different season right now. Yeah. I have to say, it sounds a little weird.

But then again, I'm not shying away from the weird. And like, I never have. And I certainly am not nowadays. But something shifted for me incredibly profoundly last year when I had a miscarriage. And I never expected that that would happen to me. And I also, you know, I have bounded through life always feeling generally optimistic and always sort of looking at any given situation and working with this kind of naivete, I think is probably the best word to use, although it my career has worked, that I've managed to kick down certain doors and whatnot. I mean, a lot of it is just, honestly, sometimes just the blindness to reality that things might not work out. And when I was told I was going to have a miscarriage, it was almost like my entire universe collapsed.

Even on the walk with the midwife down the hallway, you know, she hadn't been able to find a heartbeat, but I just knew that things would be fine. And then I went and got an ultrasound and the tech didn't say anything, but I knew, I just had this gut knowledge that it was good, that I was fine, that everything was going to be okay. And I was walking down the hallway with a midwife who hadn't looked at the results of the ultrasound yet. And I actually feel like this moment is a really important moment in my life. She looked at me. This woman and I had just met. And she looked at me and she said, why are you smiling?

And I said, am I? I didn't even know I was. I think I'm just waiting for my good news. And then five minutes later, she told me that the baby had no heartbeat and that, you know, I was three months pregnant and that I was carrying a dead baby inside me. And I remember thinking in all of the grief that was also flooding in, which was very real. I remember having the simultaneous thought like, my God, is this when I change? Is this the moment that I'm going to turn into a different kind of person who thinks a different kind of way? Is my bold, audacious optimism going to be crushed by this reality? And then something really strange happened. I went into a very sad

place, obviously, because I had been thrilled about being pregnant. And I went through the usual things that I think a lot of women go through, like the self-doubt and the judgment and why me and what did I do wrong? And is this my punishment for having an abortion? And all of the head junk that is going to spiral around. But I also felt very grounded. This all happened, by the way, three days before Christmas. The timing was really bananas. And I went off to a kind of a yoga retreat, just an R&R at Kripalu, which is this great yoga hotel in Western Mass. And I had bought myself the gift for Christmas. Like I was going to go pregnant. Amanda was going to go off and give herself 36 hours of just R&R away from my toddler, away from my husband, away from hosting.

And I decided to go anyway, even though I was facing a miscarriage. I got there on Christmas night and I went to the pregnancy massage that I had scheduled. And the woman who welcomed me into her, you know, her massage room said, I can't wait to massage you and your new baby. And I said, oh, all right, I maybe should have called. I'm actually having a miscarriage. And I was just honest about it. and she looked at me and she said I hope it doesn't sound strange but I'm kind of glad to hear that because I just went through the same thing

and I was not looking forward to this and here I am it's Christmas night and I'm standing here with this woman I've just met two minutes before weeping in mutual recognition of you know it's like that thing we were talking about before I I just had no shame about telling her the truth. And so we got to take care of each other. And I laid there on her table. She canceled whoever she had next.

She just took care of me. She held me so beautifully. And then I went back to my room and I actually went into labor and started having a miscarriage and was like, do I go off to a hospital? Do I call more, you know, like crazy, it's going to be emergency room Christmas night doctors into my life? Or do I just stand in this knowing that women have done this for thousands of years and I can probably deal with this myself? And I did. And having already gone through a natural childbirth, I sort of knew what to expect. And as odd as it sounds,

I came through the other side of that experience feeling absolutely unapologetically powerful. And also with a little dash of anger and rage that this whole culture and the whole way I was raised, school and, you know, growing up in a leafy suburb of Massachusetts and stuff, like all the things that I was never taught about how to take care of myself, about how to take care of others, you know, about the fact that I not only come equipped to get pregnant and so you better use a condom, here we are, liberal Massachusetts, but like I was never taught that I was also equipped to have the emotional largesse to deal with an abortion and the emotional, the strong, you know, emotional capacity

to stay up all night in a hotel room and deal with a miscarriage. No one teaches you this stuff. And it was this dawning realization that over millennia of being human, yes, there's a lot of knowledge and wisdom that we have and we share, but there's so much that we don't and that is withheld. And I sort of woke up from that whole fever dream going like, yeah, I'm not going to waste any time anymore. I want all the people around me to know what I just learned, like what you come equipped to deal with, what you're capable of, that death isn't scary. You know, a lot of that also came from holding my best friend while he died and being like, why did everyone keep saying death was scary? This doesn't feel scary. Holding a corpse doesn't feel scary. It feels like an honor. All of these things, like just undoing one by one, like undoing all the cliches and all the tropes.

And sort of feeling like I wanted to plant my flag in the ground for like team truth. A different way of thinking about things, different way of embracing life and birth and death and the liminal, bizarre spectrum of existence that we all deal with. That's totally normal. And I know that also that community is out there, the community that wants to embrace all of this and face the music together. So this feels like a good place for us to come full circle also. So anyway, this is a good life project. So if I offer out the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To live a good life, that's such a huge question. is about an absolute lack of shame and doubt in the self. And I feel like I've only just arrived at that doorway at 42, and I've started unpeeling all of the things I was afraid of and ashamed of and unwilling to say and too scared to say. And I've never seen such a direct connection between a lack of fear and an abundance of joy.

But the last year of my life, which saw me really like opening up the last box at the bottom of the dark closet where there were things that I just didn't want to address and just didn't want to talk about because there was too much shame or guilt or fear and, you know, like fear of all the darkest boogeymen being called narcissistic, being called tasteless, you know, making my mother angry, like all the really dark spaces that I just didn't want to touch and unlock. When I finally opened those up and let those into the light, you know,

specifically talking about my ambivalence around having children, talking about my three abortions, talking about having a miscarriage, talking like actually really openly shamelessly talking about these topics. I had no idea that the pot of gold at the end of that rainbow of finally sharing all the scariest things was going to be that I woke up every day feeling completely fantastic and unafraid and just happy. And I feel like I've spent my career giving lip service to, you know, fearlessness and fuck your plan B and, you know, say it out loud, even if it makes you frightened. And I think saying all those things aloud has allowed me to kind of actually step into that role

and try it on myself. But there's something about this album and writing all this stuff down and sharing these stories with people that's really been the proof positive that fear and shame are the real enemy of happiness. And that if you can dig into the darkest spots of your mind, your soul, whatever you want to call it, those boxes that you don't want to touch, the ones that you really don't want to open, that you think you can

avoid opening, you know, or that you're just going to have to wait until your parents die, or whatever it is, those are the ones you have to open if you want to be at peace. You just don't get to get away with it. You have to open everything up and expose it to the light. Apropos, I'm not saying everyone has to start a blog or a podcast and write a record album about your graphic experiences with death, grief, abortion, and miscarriage. That may not be your path. It may be that you finally discuss it with your friend or your therapist or your partner or your sister or your brother, but it has to come out. It has to come out into the light. It has to be spoken. And as human beings, we do such a terrible job of taking care of each other and making space for the dark to be spoken.

And we do ourselves a terrible disservice by thinking that things can stay in the dark and not slowly poison us. So when you showed up today, you were carrying with you a small red case. I was. Can I ask you to play something for us? Yeah, let me go get it. I've never played this ukulele before. I have to tune it. And I wasn't planning on singing this morning,

so you're going to get the raw, unapologetic, non-warmed-up Amanda Palmer voice. There's two ukulele songs on the new record. One of them is called Bigger on the Inside, and one of them is called The Thing About Things. But given the theme of your podcast, I need to play an oldie, which is just too on point not to play. It's called In My Mind. Do you know it? You on point not to play. It's called In My Mind. Do you know it?

You're about to know it. In my mind, in a future five years from now, I'm 120 pounds, and I never get hung over Because I will be the picture of discipline Never minding what state I'm in And I will be someone I admire And it's funny how I imagined that I would be that person now

but it does not seem to have happened maybe I've just forgotten how to see but I'm not exactly the person that I thought I'd be

And in my mind, in the far away here and now I've become in control somehow And I never lose my wallet because I will be the picture of discipline never fucking up anything

and I'll be a good defensive driver and it's funny how I imagined that I would be that person now But it does not seem to have happened Maybe I've just forgotten how to see That I'll never be the person that I want to be. And in my mind, when I'm old, I am beautiful, planting tulips and

vegetables, which I will mindfully watch over, not like me now. I'm so busy with everything that I don't look at anything. But I'm sure I'll look when I'm older. And it's funny how I imagined that I would be that person now. But that's not what I want. If that's what I wanted, then I'd be giving up somehow. How strange to see that I don't want to be the person that I want to And in my mind I imagine so many things Things that aren't really happening And when they put me in the ground

I'll start pounding the lid Saying I haven't finished yet I still have a tattoo to get That says I'm living in the moment It's funny how I imagined That I would win this winless fight But maybe it really isn't funny that i've been fighting all my life but maybe i have to think it's funny if i want to live before i die and maybe it's funny as to all To think I'll die before I actually see

That I am exactly the person that I thought I'd be Fuck yes I am exactly the person that I want to be. I love it. Especially given the later part of the conversation. Yeah, it fit. That was a good fit. Awesome.

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