Good Life Project - André Mack: Military Kid Turned Rebel Winemaker

Episode Date: May 30, 2016

How do you go from being a wine newbie to a sommelier at Thomas Keller’s famed French Laundry?That was the journey that our today’s guest, André Mack, took. And that was just the beginning. From there, André became the head sommelier at Per Se, Thomas Keller’s restaurant in New York, before becoming a winemaker and creating his own, provocative wine brand, Mouton Noir.In this episode of the Good Life Project, André shares his incredible journey and his love affair with learning, entrepreneurship, wine and design, as well as the deep insights he’s gained along the way. We talk about his consuming obsession with becoming extraordinary and how it moved him to become an award-winning sommelier, winemaker, designer & author. You won’t want to miss this inspiring episode!In This Episode You’ll Learn:André’s experience growing up as a prototypical military kid and how it opened up his world.Why André and his wife decided to homeschool their kids.The reason why he left the finance world for the service industry.How the TV show, Frasier, inspired him to learn more about wine.André’s process for committing wines’ subtle nuances to memory.His journey to becoming a sommelier at The French Laundry and Per Se.His consuming obsession with becoming extraordinary.How André’s need for being creative drove him to starting his own business.The power of leveraging past relationships.The idea behind the Mouton Noir’s branding.Mentioned In This Episode:Connect with André: andremack.com | Mouton Noir Wines | Small Thyme CooksFrasierThe French LaundryPer Se David Chang and MomofukuHall & Oates Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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prepared for the opportunities. And I think it was timing and I was prepared. So how do you go from really not knowing a whole lot about wine to being a sommelier, the expert in wine, at Thomas Keller's French Laundry in San Francisco, which at the time is the number one restaurant in the world with one of the most admired wine collections in history? Well, that's the journey that today's guest, Andre Mack Mack took. But it turns out that was also just the beginning. From there, he went on to become the head sommelier at Per Se, which was Thomas Keller's restaurant in New York before becoming a winemaker and opening his own company. When he decided to open a wine business, though, he didn't just want to do the same thing that so many other people were doing. He created a very provocative, almost contrarian brand that felt like it was every bit of him out into the world. And he raised a lot of eyebrows and he's making an extraordinary company and serving people something really cool. I hope you enjoy this journey and his

pretty deep insights. I'm Jonathan Fields. This is Good Life Project. You've got this fascinating journey. We're hanging out right now on the Upper West Side of New York City, where you told me you used to live for a little while, actually, before you headed out to the BK. And right now you're kind of like sitting on top of a, we're going to deconstruct it shortly,

but it's wine empire slash graphic, like design, emerging design empire, really, really fascinating blend of stuff that you're dancing with right now. Let's take a step back in time. Where'd you grow up, actually? I grew up all over. I was born in Trenton, New Jersey, and I spent the first 15 summers of my life there. My mom was in the military, and we traveled all over. I lived in Savannah.

We lived in Texas for a little bit at the beginning, then Savannah, and then Savannah, we moved to Germany, moved back. I lived in Annapolis for a little bit. I lived in Kansas for a little bit, came back to Texas, spent quite a bit of time in Texas, lived in Oklahoma, came back to Texas, and then moved to California, and then California to New York. So you were the like prototypical military kid. Yeah. And you know what? I actually really liked it.

No kidding. Right. I really liked it. I think that, you know, for a lot of people, they're like, oh man, that must have sucked, right? Like, you know, you traveled everywhere. You couldn't really make friends. And I was like, yeah, but I made meaningful friendships and that was great.

But I really liked the aspect of traveling and being able to start over or to nest or to meet friends. And so I think that was really great. And I think that really helps me to this day. Was your mom Army, Navy? Yeah. What did she actually do? That I don't know. I think my mom, she worked in hospital administration.

Ah, no kidding. Mm-hmm. So what was it? Because it's interesting because I actually have a bunch of friends who grew up no kidding. Mm-hmm. So what was, because it's interesting because I actually have a bunch of friends who grew up that way. Uh-huh. And you get to totally,

there doesn't seem to be like a middle ground. Like, yeah, it was all right. It was like either this was amazing or I hated it. Mm-hmm. You were on the

this is amazing side. No, it was amazing. It was truly great. I got to travel. And I think what made it so amazing is that I still spent the summers in Trenton,

New Jersey. Ah, so you had like the anchor. Yeah, rough and tumble. You know what I mean? made it so amazing is that I still spent the summers in Trenton, New Jersey. So it was rough and tumble. You know what I mean? Like it was a sense of like never forgetting where you came from part of it. I, you know, that's how I became street smart. And I got to see two different sides of life. Like if my mom never left, that's what our life would be like. And not to say that, that, you know, that anything was wrong with it. It was great. But it was the polar opposite experience of what I was having in these other places.

And so I felt very fortunate to be able to travel. Just take me into that a little bit more. How polar opposite? What was that? Well, I mean, I grew up. I mean, I was in Trenton, New Jersey during the crack epidemic. Yeah, because I'm thinking like the time you're talking about. Like the fellows on the corner, like my friends.

It's not a good place. And I'm like, hey, why are you guys holding those tennis balls? Like there's no tennis courts around here, right? You know what I mean? And it's like they cut the sled in it. That's where they held all the crack. You know, so it was a lot of that stuff that like you were like, oh, wow. Like it was front and center.

Like that wasn't happening in Savannah, Georgia. I didn't live in a neighborhood like that. And so it was just different. And a lot of those people that were in Trenton, New Jersey, for a lot of them, they hadn't even been outside of the tri-state area. It was a different thing for me. It kind of opened up my world, the travel part of it, but also going back really kind of helped me understand that I felt fortunate that I could actually travel and was having all these other different types of experiences. So many people thinking about like travel to a foreign country because it really will make you reassess and be grateful. And also just get a different lens on how different people are living. But I think a lot of times we write off actually just bop around within this country, you know, or our listeners in different countries.

You know, like you may not have to go that far actually to kind of see an entirely different world. But to get that level of regular exposure when you're younger, I think is one of the most powerful experiences that you can have as a kid. And I think my recollection is when I was coming up, that wasn't a huge focus, but I kind of feel like it's becoming more sort of like trying to create kids that are a little more exposed. Oh yeah. I mean, that's, you know, for me, I talk, me and my wife, we talk a lot about the two most important things that you can give your children is the gift of language and the gift of travel. Coming from someone who doesn't speak another language. And that's what we really instilled in them.

I mean, we homeschool our kids because we really want them to really take advantage of living in a great city like New York. And just not New York, but they travel with me outside of New York. And we want them to explore their passions at an earlier age, right? It's not, you know what I mean? Like our saying is don't let school get in your way of your education. All right. So now I got it. You can't throw out the homeschooling thing without me at least like exploring that on

some level. Okay. Yeah, totally. So I know. So literally as we're sitting down here, like four days ago, you just, ago, you added a third kid to the family. Both you and your wife work from home? Yes. And you homeschool the kids?

Yes. So how does that work? I was curious. Yeah. Homeschool is a little different here in New York and this metropolis, right? So I tell people it's a lot like college in some ways, right? I was just up here on 108th taking my boys to French class yesterday. And then he has a history class.

One of my sons has a history class in the 40s in the basement of a synagogue, right? You know what I mean? So there's days that we're out and about. And normally on Wednesdays, there's a thing called recess where there's about 40 to 45 homeschool kids who have recess in Central Park, right? So they range from four to 14. Yeah, you see what I'm saying? Like it's really an interesting thing. And the thing is, is that if you're into something, let's explore that. You know, my kid takes a math class that's disguised as a sewing class, right? And so he gets to learn practical math

and he learns a skill. You know, it's kind of one of those things we kind of go through life and we feel like, wow, like is it really important for my kid to play soccer? Like swimming? You know, you can save someone's life knowing how to swim.

Soccer, maybe not so much, right? You know what I mean? So we really want to teach life skills and we want them to actually be able to interact with other people of different ages. Right. You know what I mean? I think the problem with most homeschool kids is that the adults don't know how to react to them.

Right. Because my kids look you in the eye. They talk to you. They have a vocabulary. Right. It's not that they're like, oh, that kid's kind of off or weird. And it's like, no, because he acts more like an adult and will have more responsibility. But that's kind of been our thing.

The thing is, let's grab a hold of our children's education and let's fill it with travel and things that are meaningful for us. They have a book club. It's six children. And we rotate homes. And it's once a month. And they have dinner. That's amazing. And discuss the book book and there's a

moderator and us being the food people you know we try to make things or bring things that were the food if there was a food presence in the book we like something tied to yeah we like to make that or incorporate that into the dinner and so yeah it's so cool and it is i think there's so much you know the the idea of homeschooling versus the reality of it, especially in a place like New York City. I think there's a huge divide between what people think it is and what it actually is. I have a couple of friends who homeschooled their kids here also. And I was blown away by the truth of what it really is. And there's like, there's amazing homeschooling, like there's community and their friendships and your kids actually dive deep into the things that fascinate them, you know, rather than sort of a road curriculum, which is really, it's so powerful in so many ways, I think. Yeah. And so, so that, that part's going on and then, you know, I travel a lot. So I'm on the road, you know, over 200 days out of the year, you know, a typical week for me is, you know, I get on a plane that leaves JFK around 6am, get to my destination. Monday's always a travel day. I work Tuesday,

Wednesday, Thursday, and I get back on the first plane on Friday. And hopefully, barring any delays, I'm at the kitchen table having dinner with my family on Friday. And then, you know, Saturday, it's dance for one kid cello for the ex-kid sunday i have to take out the trash and get on the plane on monday yeah yeah that and you're good with that yeah you know why because i i realized that it's not forever okay take me into that right it's not forever we're building something we're getting to do i'm getting to do something that i love. I get to build something. And we talk a lot about that, about relationships.

Me and my wife, we have some friends whose relationships aren't working. And she's friends with my wife and she tells him her side of the story. And he's friends with me and he tells me his side of the story. But we've really come to conclusion that a lot of times it's either both of them are not happy with what they're doing or one of them is getting to do what they want to do and the other one's not. And so there's this jealousy thing there. The other person who feels like they're stuck in the job that they don't want, they can't leave because it's – Yeah, they're like enabling the other person to go.

And so there's resentment in that. And to be honest, you know, it was something that I really found out about myself being an entrepreneur, wanting to be an entrepreneur. And my wife getting a book deal and then all of a sudden, she wasn't in the restaurant working side by side with me anymore. And she was out getting to do what she really wanted to do. And I felt like, oh, wow, what am I doing with my life? And then there was some resentment. And then I understood what that was all about. And having an open conversation saying, hey, this is how I'm really feeling. And her saying, okay, let's figure out how to fix that. Let's figure out how for you to transition out of what you're doing and into something that you really want to do. And that's kind of where we're at now, where we feel like we're in this really great place where she gets to do what she loves to do.

And at this particular moment in time, it is taking care of our boys, educating them, and really being the thought leader for them. It's really amazing what she's been able to do with them and really great. And she loves it. And for me, basically, I've gotten the okay to do whatever it takes to provide for my family and to build a company and something that i really wanted to do was was to build something that i got something that i really like you know and so that's that's been really great for us right now yeah and understanding that and that's where that's where it's kind of coming full circle on that also is where the idea of like there's there's an end game here because you know we were talking about okay

you're okay actually being on a plane yeah you plane for four days out of a week or being away. And it's so interesting because I think when people think about stuff like that, they're like, okay, let me sit down and talk with my partner. And let's have a conversation about like, are we talking about this is your life? Or we're both willing to put in this sacrifice in the name of building something to this place for this amount of time. And if it doesn't happen in this amount of time something to this place and, you know, for this amount of time. And if it doesn't happen in this amount of time, let's, let's sit down and have the conversation again and see how we're both feeling.

I think that doesn't happen very often. No, I don't think so. Yeah. No, it's been, it's, it's been great because like, you know, on the, in the days that I'm, I get frustrated because, you know, we've been standing in the security line, you know, and like, you've known that you have to take your coat off, but you wait to get there to take your coat off kind of thing. Classic Seinfeld. Yeah.

Oh, my God. And you're like, oh, my God. But I just have to sit back and realize that, you know what, I'm getting to do what I love. And this is part of it. A little part of this is that I'm on here every day. I understand how it works. And maybe some of these people don't. Maybe they're going on vacation.

And so that makes me feel a little bit better. But knowing that it's not forever. I will continue to be an entrepreneur. I will continue to build. But maybe it's less travel. But at this point, I think it's great. The more I travel, the smaller my world gets in a way that I meet more people, connect the dots, and I become smaller.

My world becomes smaller, more in tune or more in touch. So let's fill in some of the gaps here because we've kind of been bouncing around. Because all this travel is based around your current ventures. Let's kind of back up a little bit and talk about where you came from and how you got there. So at some point you end up going to college and you end up going into the world of finance. What were you actually doing? So I worked at a place called Citicp Investment Services in San Antonio, Texas. It was a call center.

And you had to take your licensed stockbroker, right? But Citibank didn't have a broker's license. So we couldn't give any advice. Yeah, no advice on anything. So we just kind of sat in a room and we gave people a call and we would give them stock quotes. So this is before the internet, right? Think about it, right? And so it was for Citibank, largest client, big bank here in New York.

And I don't know if you remember, but it was right around the time that every ATM machine had a phone receiver on it. And you would pick up the phone if you had a problem. Right, right. It would ring in San Antonio, Texas. I remember those days. Yeah. And so-

People were calling you. Yeah. And so it was one of those things and i just felt you know first of all i i gained 40 pounds right it was the first time in my life i had shin splints i was like what is that but i what i really realized is that i missed the interaction with guests i miss the connection with people there wasn't where what did you miss it from what oh yeah so i worked in restaurants all throughout college and most of my adult life cool and interacting with someone at the table

yeah and it all and it always meant that your day went differently like okay i knew i'm gonna i know i'm gonna be at work yeah right i know that i'm probably not gonna be leaving early barring cutting off a finger or something like that but But the people that you met, there was an interaction and there was an instant gratification of the work that you were doing. You could see a smile on someone's face. You could turn a table around who was pissed off about something. And you could do that too on the phone, but it was a little bit more frantic. Can we pause on that for a second?

Yeah, sure. Turn a table around. Okay. What do you mean by that? And tell me what was the feeling? Because I think that one moment is a really fascinating window. About turning the table? Turning a table around that's not doing well.

Yeah. I mean, that happens all the time. Yeah. Maybe I forgot to put in their order, or maybe the chef gave their order to somewhere else. Someone's totally pissed off, or maybe they didn't like their waiter and they requested someone new. Those were a lot of the challenges that you faced is, you know, being able to walk up to a table and be able to turn it on and to interact with them. And I felt like being an army brat really helped me with that.

Oh, that's interesting. Moving around and being able to make friends easily. It kind of gave you that skill set. Yeah, I think that really helped. I mean, that moment is amazing training. Like Danny Myers, a renowned restaurateur here in New York and now founder of Shake Shack and all this stuff. But he was legendary for a maniacal devotion to customer delight.

And one of the things that was one of his sort of main philosophies, and I've seen this in almost every entrepreneur that I've ever known. One of the most powerful things that happens is anyone who's kind of trying to create a moment of delight is that stuff goes wrong. And your ability to actually turn that into something that gives a better outcome than would have ever been possible had nothing gone wrong to start with. Like that moment is one of the things that so many people dread.

But if you view it as like this really fascinating micro challenge, like how can I actually take this and like deliver an outcome that would have never even been possible had everything just gone okay. So that skill set I think is astonishing and something people don't really talk about. But those are the little small challenges that you have to, that you build up in your mind so that the day is not mundane. Yeah. Right. And the fact is, is that you learn from that.

Right. So you say, okay, well, this is what happened last time. So let's figure out how to talk to these people and do this. And this is what we normally would do. And then that didn't, you know, that didn't work. You know, and I think I've always used those things to build skills for another platform. Right. Like, so most people are afraid of public speaking.

And for me, you know, I felt like, oh, wow, here's a chance for me to get up in front of 25 of my peers and to talk about wine. Right. A lot of, you know, people would dread like, you know, other sommeliers that work for me, they would dread like, Hey, you do the meeting today. Like that was a point where people made people nervous. And I always felt I attacked it in a way and said, you know, if I'm in this building, right, I could be coming to pick up my check. But if it's time for the meeting, I want to do the meeting. And I feel like building that skill and being able to talk to people who are in it the same way that I am in it. We always talked about in the restaurant that you want to work to impress the people that you work with.

If you can blow the people that you work shoulder to shoulder with away, any guest that walks through the front door is blown away. Yeah, I agree with that. And so that was kind of always, that's the mentality that I've always worked with. It's like, let's use the platform that we have to better ourselves. So, and you're missing all of that stuff. So when you're hanging out working in the, you know, like call center for this big financial institution, you're like, not getting what I need. Yeah, no, no, not at all. And I just felt like, ah, you know what? And it was one of those things like, ah, you know what? Never moved to New York, right? I'll never move to New York.

And here we are. The finance capital of the world. What am I doing with my life? And I quit to go back to restaurants and trying to figure out what was next. And so I went back to restaurants. And a few years later, I think that's when I kind of really fell in love with wine. Most recently, last year, I was going back through and I was watching, um, Frazier, every episode of Frazier,

something that we did after we put the kids together, something that we did as a, as a, a unit and, watching it, I really, it helped me realize that I learned a lot about wine. My interest,

my interest in wine really peak and grew from watching this show. No kidding. No, totally. Uh, it was just really funny. You know, it was like, oh, wow. Like, you know, walking through the grocery store. It's like, do they have any sherry?

Yeah, this is what these guys drink. Where's the sherry at? You know, kind of thing. And as I slowly got interested more and more into drinking alcoholic beverages or wine in general, I opened a steakhouse restaurant. You know, I was hired as a waiter at a steakhouse restaurant and we got to taste wine. And that was when the light bulb went off. And I think in my mind for a long time, I was trying to figure out what I was good at. It's like one of those things you felt like, oh, well, you know what? I was good at basketball. I had potential. Maybe I messed that

up. I hate that word in a way where people are like, no, he's got potential. And it's always like, oh, shit. You know, like, are you living up to it? And I always said to myself, wow, I was decent at basketball. I could have done something with that. And then you think like, wow, when I'm good at something else, I'm never going to let that go. Right. And that was interesting.

And, you know, I'm kind of one of those people that it's like, cool, I'm bored right now. I want to learn how to play chess. So every waking moment of my life, I'm reading about chess, I'm playing chess, I'm playing chess on computers. You know. I want to learn how to play tennis. You know, I did the same thing. I got hit with a ball and then I was like, I quit. But it's one of those things where I feel it was the same way. And I came about wine and, you know, I had this aha moment during a staff training where we started to taste wine side by side. And it's an element that I include now when I give tastings myself is to be able to taste wine side by side, not this, you know, you taste it in the glass, you slam it, and now you pour the new wine. You have three glasses laid out and you can vacillate between each class and really kind of savor the nuances between all wines. And it really helped me understand that, wow, this is all really different. And, you know, this tastes more,

this tastes grassy, this smells more like vanilla, right? This smells like petrol or gasoline. And that was a really, you know, that was the hook for me. And then, you know, you realize that it's about history, right? It's about geography. It's about government scandal. It's, you know, all of those things can be told through a culture's wine, right? And different times. And so I was really, I was hooked on that.

And so I just started to study um like day in and day out i mean i would drink like you know i would taste you know four or five bottles of wine during lunch in between working right it was just i was just consumed with it just every waking moment and then i would get off of work and i'd go home and i bought this large giant dry erase board and how i commit things to memory was through repetition and through writing them down. And so that's kind of – So you take notes and then –

Yeah, so it's like, oh, well, I'm supposed to know the Grand Cru villages of Gervais-Chambartin, or Burgundy, the Côte-de-Nouilly. And so I would write them from alphabetical order, north to south, smallest to largest, you know, largest to smallest. You know, I just started to study and, like, consume all this information. And the only way to really test it was to join a competition, right? And in that competition, I was just really trying to figure out how much I actually knew.

So for you, it's like it's not so much about winning as much as it is, okay, let me actually see where I'm at. Yeah, no, totally. I mean, it's the reason why you take tests. It's the reason why they administer tests in school. In theory, right? Yeah, no, totally. Yeah, right.

And so that was it for me. It was like, and all the different accreditations and things they would have you take tests. And that was the big thing for me was trying to figure out how I stacked up against myself, right? Because I'm truly competitive, but I'm only competitive against myself, right? You know what I mean? It sounds like it. It sounds like you've got that thing inside of you. It's like when the fire gets lit, like there's no external competitor or motivator that will ever come close to like you just trying to burn that fire brother. No, no, totally. Yeah.

So what happened? I mean, yeah, I won the competition. So I won the competition and I think that's part of the story, not the biggest part of the story. I think I met a lot of different people on this journey and that was the key part for me. Getting a job, I ended up working at Thomas Keller, working at the French Laundry. And then I moved to New York here to run Per Se's beverage department.

Yeah, and for those that don't know, who's Thomas Keller? Thomas Keller is probably one of the most renowned American chefs. Yeah. I mean, like, extraordinary. The French Laundry is just one of these legendary, legendary places. And then Per Se in New York is the same thing. So both of the restaurants, when I worked at French Laundry, it was considered the best restaurant in the world. And then Per Se is in the top 10.

Yeah. I guess one of the questions in my mind is, what was the amount of time between when you kind of started up and you end up at French Laundry? I would say two years. To me, that sounds like an astonishingly short amount of time to go from starting up to the best, like somebody at the best restaurant in the world. Yep. Ridiculous. So, what gives? You know, I think everybody has this whole quote on luck or whatever. I think it's about just being prepared for the opportunities.

And I think it was timing and I was prepared, right? I met all these different people around the way and having no idea that they were affiliated in any way, they were just like, hey, you know, I won that competition. The gentleman who won before worked at the French Laundry. After I won the regional finals, I staged, you know, I hung out at a restaurant and worked with a friend who became a mentor, but who actually hired me to work for Thomas Keller. And so, yeah. So I think it was just being prepared for those opportunities. I think that's generally what it is, is the more you're prepared and you're out there, the timing will be right.

And a consuming obsession with becoming extraordinary. Yeah. No, no. Well, that too, right? I think that too like you have to have the drive yeah right you have to have the you have to put in the work you know everybody everybody talks shit and says that they do yeah right i mean and if that was true then you know like there'd be a lot more people sort of like yeah and i think and i think the whole

idea is like most people just don't they just don't know what hard is like they in their mind that they think that they're working hard, but they're not. But, you know, I mean, to each his own, right? Yeah, exactly. I mean, everybody aspires to sort of like a certain place. I mean, if it meant enough. I mean, because I asked this about myself also, and so I'm curious. It's interesting that you brought it up.

It's like you look at a lot of people and you wonder, you know, who will kind of say, well, like, I would love to be – I'm here, but I would love to be here. That second one is, you know, like bigger, better somehow. And you're kind of looking, you're like, well, you know, why are you not? And, you know, the fundamental answer for most people is some blend of fear. And also just, I'm actually pretty good where I am. Like there's no fire that's either burning them or, you know, like pulling them from ahead. Or they settled. Yeah. And, and, uh, it's kind of like,

what I love about that in a weird way, and I think it's a little counterintuitive, is that for those that make up their minds to do the work, to try and actually be in that, in the very best, there's so much less competition than you would actually think to be in that spot

because of what it takes. That if you actually endeavor to really go there, I almost wonder if sometimes the opportunity is bigger than you may think. Anyway, when you're hanging out at French Laundry and then Per Se, so you're basically like you're at the top of the profession basically. Yeah. So what happens? I think, you know, you continue to, I would still continue to accelerate at the same pace. So for me, we talked about like, oh, how long did that take? That's two years.

I still feel like, you know, I only have two years experience. Whereas there's other people who work on the team who have, who are younger than me and they have more years of experience. And so for me, it was always, I worked at like this two for one or three for one pace. Like for me, like I was always there. I took more, I was nine city blocks from work. I would walk to work. I was the first one at work, you know, get there at seven. You know, it was one of those things where I just felt like I needed, I needed more experience. I needed every day not just to count as one day.

It needed to count as two, if not three. And when I was at French Laundry, there'd be plenty of nights that I would fall asleep in the back, going through, cleaning out the computer system. It would be three, four in the morning. And it was just something that I just wanted to be around it. I wanted to understand more of it. And that was it. And so I continued to grow at that. Even when I moved to understand more of it. And that was it. And so I continued

to grow at that. Even when I moved to New York, it was the same thing. I took more showers at Equinox in the basement than I did at my own apartment. For those that don't know, Per Se is in the same building as Equinox in New York City. So that is what he's saying. He never went home. Yeah. And so that was one of the things. And it was great. At one point when I arrived at the French Laundry, I'd never had my sights set on New York. It was still that same thing about like, why would I go to New York kind of thing. And then after I think about it a little bit, it's like, why wouldn't I go? This is all about the experience.

And this is one of the most anticipated restaurant openings in New York in the last 15 to 20 years. I think I should be a part of this. And decided that I would come. And so I came. one of the most anticipated restaurant openings in New York in the last 15 to 20 years. I think I should be a part of this and decided that I would come. And so I came. And the first time I've ever been to New York was the day I got off the plane to come work at Per Se. And so, yeah, so I just, you know, I think we're coasting along. We're working. I'm really having a really great experience.

Three years later. You don't seem like someone who where the word coasting along is okay for you. Yeah. Well, I mean, when I say coasting, I mean mean there's tons of stuff happening but like yeah your wildest dreams right your wildest dreams are right here in front of you right it's like wow like i remember i broke the spine of like his cookbook just flipping through the pages reading the stories you know what i mean and then all of a sudden like you're here and not only i'm like not just in napa like i'm in new york and like I get off work, it'd

be like two o'clock in the morning. And I always tell them to drive through Times Square. And then, you know, at like two 30, there's like, you know, a traffic jam, right? It was just still this thing. Like, is it real? And then I think that I started to realize that, you know, I started to question a lot of things that like in myself, like, oh, wow. Like there's all these young kids that work in the kitchen.

There's like 40 of these guys. I've talked to them. I hung out with them. We drink beers to the wee hours in the morning. They all aspire to be restauranteurs, but only a handful of them aspire to be restauranteurs at the level that we were working at. And I realized it's like, you know, there's going to be a shift in dining, right? You have all these young kids that they want to do it on their own terms, right?

They want to wear, you know, tennis shoes and jeans and listen to like Pink Floyd. They want to play their own music. They want their restaurant to be an expression of themselves in a place that they would eat. And you started to see that, right? I don't have to look any further than look at like David Chang and Momofuku where he had like this traditional background, but he took those skills and techniques and he applied it to street food from where he was from. And it was this cool place and you could start to see there was a shift. And I just kept thinking, you know, I'm always thinking about what's next.

And I was like, you know, I want to be closer to wine. Like now I have like a staff of four other sommeliers that work for me. I spent a lot of time managing people, which was a great thing for me and delegating, you know, it was really hard for me to delegate. That was just something that I didn't understand. You know, I had to lay on someone's sofa to figure that out. Right. You know? And, um, and so I just kept thinking like, I need to be closer to wine, right? I don't want to get to touch it in the way that I want to and all these other kinds of things. And I felt like I wanted to be an entrepreneur, like, and definitely more so that that started to shine through as I moved to New York, just the energy of the city and the

people that you met that really started to ring home with me. And I found that I wanted to be creative. Like I, I knew that that was something in me, you know, like graphic design and I was doing a little bit on the side, but you know, I was spending a lot of time at work designing, you know, the pre-shift sheet for the pre-shift meeting only, you know, it was an internal memo, so to speak. And I said, you know, I need to figure out, I need to be closer to wine. I want to be an entrepreneur and I want to be creative. And I thought, yeah, you know, I should hop on the production side. So, you know, I could be closer to wine, right? By being in production, creating my own thing that would allow me to be creative and I could go out and sell it.

And that would allow me to be an entrepreneur all the while thinking of like, wow, I really want to have an impact on this industry. Like, what can I do? Like, I really want to like do something. I want to be part of the laundry conversation or drive it to a different place. And I remember walking through the kitchen one day and looking at all the chefs and saying, wow, you know, I want to make wine and I want to make wine for the restaurants that these guys want to open. And that was it. You know, that was kind of the thing that kind of got me going. But also what I realized too, is that you have to be moved outside of your comfort zone to really make big moves sometimes.

And I think I met my wife at the restaurant and she quit working at the restaurant to write a book about the restaurant and her life. And once the restaurant got word of that, then things became really tense. And I'd show up to a manager's meeting and my girlfriend's name would be like the second to last thing on the agenda. And it just made it really uncomfortable. And then at that meeting, everybody at the table was informed. All the managers were informed that she was now considered press. And anybody that wanted to speak to her had to call our PR company first. And it was a lot of that kind of nonsense.

And I'm just kind of like, wow, this is going to make for interesting pillow talk. And it was that. It's like, wow, this is going to make for interesting pillow talk. And it was that, you know, it's like, wow, like. That was like the push. Yeah. You're like, should I dump this broad, you know what I mean? Or should I quit my job? But it wasn't, there was no pressure in it. I didn't really feel like I had to choose.

Like in any moment I would have chose what I chose, right? It just like, yeah, okay. Like I'm getting used to the idea that like, you know what, it's time to move on. This is what I want to do. And that was it. And I'm a firm believer in putting it out in the universe, right? And let the universe help you and conspire with you to make things happen. And that was it. You know, I quit and I wrote everybody I knew saying thank you. And this has been a really great experience and I'm off to a new adventure. And, you know, my mama taught me that, you know, you use your platform that you're currently on to talk about what you want to do and put that out there. So if people want

to help you, uh, and sure enough, that's what happened. So I said, I wanted to, I wanted to make wine and I was off to go make wine. And people started to respond saying, Hey, you know, we normally sell this fruit to, to so-and-so, but we'd much rather sell it to you. So it was actually the people who were like making the grapes and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. So it was like everybody I had ever worked with. So whether it be, you know, distributors, suppliers, winery people, you know, just basically saying thank you for time. It's been great.

I'm off to the next chapter in my life. This is what I'm going to be doing. And it kind of just unfolded from there and then realizing that like by not being a buyer and quitting my job i didn't have any more leverage right no one wanted to do shit for me right right you know before like i could have had someone like you know like babysit right and so i realized that wow i had lost all the leverage that I had. And sure enough, people just started to respond. It was this really great thing where you're like, cool, thanks, but I don't have any money.

And they're like, don't worry about it. What does it pay us when you sell it? I was like, really? She goes, yeah. She goes, let us know when you want to pick it up. And I was like, oh, yeah, I've been meaning to talk to you about it. I don't have a place to make it. And then at that point, she's like, what are you doing?

But that was it, right? People were so generous with their resources and their time and everything that like, I had to bootstrap this thing together. It wasn't like I went out and wrote a business plan and like went out and got investors and said, I'm going to pay myself X amount of dollars. Like there wasn't this comfortable transition. You know, it was really, you know, hand to mouth for a few years and really, you know, really hard and really said a lot. You know what I mean? It was like, you're at your spouses, you're at Wits End and you're like trying to figure it all out. And you know what I really realized? Your spouse is supposed to believe in you.

She believes in you. That person believes in you. But it's really interesting. You can actually see the moment that they really believe in you. Right? You know what I mean? I do know what you mean, actually. They believed in you.

And they said what they needed to say because they believed in you. But when the next level hits or when it takes off and when you you can see when they're like i had faith in you i knew you could you had potential i knew you could do it right and so yeah that that was kind of how it started and so it was kind of like couch surfing wherever i could get extended terms or no terms or whatever that's how it was and so it was you know i had stuff scattered all on up and down the west coast so you're like growing in different places and yeah so we didn't do we didn't do any growing we were we just bought some vineyards that we trusted like the same people the same people who we bought their wine and from the vineyards from for the restaurants that i bought for right and so it was kind of like that it It was kind of like couchsurfing, figuring that out.

And, you know, obviously, so there was no capital to really travel the country. So it was like out there. And then I would come back to New York and then sell the wine in New York. And so basically we kind of started in the East Coast and started to move our way back to the West Coast, even though that's where the wine was coming from. How do you – we could go like way off the deep end, like on mechanics of me,

like the winemaking business, but I don't think I want to go there. But I'm curious about one thing, which is that, so you tap into this crazy community of people where you've built deep relationships with over a long period of time and they rise up and help you out. And that's awesome.

And you're basically, you're picking from vineyards where you've developed long time relationships and then you create your own brand, Mouton Noir was the name of it. But when you come back to New York, how do you break in and then get people to sort of like try your wine and to start to sell your wine? I mean, I would imagine there's a lot of giving it away. No, I couldn't give it. Well, what you have to understand is that those people were my peer group. Those are all the friends that I hung that those people were my peer group. Right. Those are all the friends that I hung out with on the weekend or late at night.

Right. They all ran the best wine programs in the city. Right. So you had like that was part of your, yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I had some leverage in that part of it to say, hey, you know, I made this wine. I would love for you to check it out. I'd love for you guys to support it.

Right. You know, and, you to check it out. I'd love for you guys to support it. And it worked. I could get meetings that one of the owners of Best Buy couldn't get, right? You know what I mean? Like who got into the wine business. Because I had access to those people. Those people were acquaintances or friends. Yeah, so it was like years of building that up. You also did, I mean, it was really interesting because when you look at actually the brand that you created, when most people think of wine, they think kind of like very classic looking. Yeah.

I mean, stuffy labels with lots of swirls and thin fonts that swoop around and have trouble reading. It almost feels like with all of your branding, your design, you were mentioning earlier, you kind of geek out on the design side too. We share that in common. But it almost feels like you looked at everything that was out there and said to yourself, what's the exact opposite of this? Well, you know, it's really interesting. I was telling this story the other day. It's that I grew up in an era where when you would go to the grocery store, there was a generic aisle. I don't know if they had that here. Like you would go on part of the aisle.

They did indeed. And it was before grocery got got hip to marketing like now they have they create their own brand you know like shady farms or whatever it is and you know and they have like real packaging it's a store brand before they didn't have that it was it was called you know it was a generic aisle like you just knew it was a generic aisle and everything was white so potato chips were in a white bag and it just said potato chips on it and beer was in a white can and it just said potato chips on it. And beer was in a white can that said beer on it. And I remember that. And I remember we went to a friend's house in the eighth grade and he had a party at his house when his parents were out of town. And we

were all like looking for something to eat in the cabinets. And it was just a strange thing that he had a name brand of everything. And then he had a generic of everything. And he was telling me, he says, no, when my dad goes to the store and he was telling me he says no when my dad goes to the store he gets the generic and then when my mom goes to the store she got like the peanut peanut pan peanut butter and so i just always remember how stark that auto was but also the message was you know kind of the thing is it's like let's take the packaging out of it right how about we spend less money on packaging and more money on the wine that's inside that too and then also like trying to find my style as a graphic designer. Like, you know, for me, it was kind of like a last minute decision to do it that way.

Right. Just saying, you know what, we're going to call it other people's Pinot and we're going to put OPP on the front. It's going to look like my three-year-old kid did it. And I think that invokes a playfulness in it. I think it taps into an emotion. You look at that label and that makes you think about it more. You want to stand out. And so it's pretty stark. Yeah, it definitely stands out. And when you look at your labels, if you're in a wine store,

I'm sure you're scanning. It's just like, that's going to jump out. Yeah. And I think, yeah. And so people, it's engaging in that way. So people are engaged and it's supposed to make you feel a certain way. You know, and the thing is, is that I couldn't bring myself to put Andre Mack winery or Andre Mack wines because what does that mean to anyone? Right. And so for us, we decided that we would give them the wines, their own fantasy name and use terms and use things that they've evoke emotion in people and that people would understand. And let's use a bold graphic so you know something like love drunk can mean a lot of different things to people but it definitely grabs your attention right right whereas if it just said andre mack you're just

like yeah who's that guy right and that's it and i think there's some sarcasm in it as well right it's kind of you know it looks over marketed but it's supposed to you know it as well, right? It's kind of, you know, it looks over-marketed, but it's supposed to. You know, it's a way for me to kind of thumb my nose at the establishment. Yeah, and the name of, I mean, the company itself, too. I mean, Mouton Mark translates to... Black Sheep. Yeah. Yeah, you know, and I think that gave us creative license to do things differently.

Like, I mean, we would totally be ruining the name if we didn't. And so the whole idea is to look at things differently. And I felt like throughout my whole journey that I couldn't really be who I wanted to be because that wasn't fitting for the place that I worked in, so to speak. Right? You know what I mean? And then all of a sudden, like when I had my own company, that's something that I wanted to include all the different parts of my life. Right. You know, I'm, I'm a kid who grew up on hip hop and skateboarding and punk rock. Right. And music plays a big, it's a big element in my life. Like, you know, my kids have Pavlovian, right. When I play, you know, Hall and Oates, we play, we listen to Hall and Oates every,

every night from there. Right. And I swear to God. It's taking me back. It's so good. You know, my kid's like, Daddy, what's a man-eater? It's like, eat your corn. For you guys listening who don't know how I know, just go listen.

You may never listen again after the first time, but you got to hear it at least once. But, you know, music is such a big thing. And it was really funny. I mean, when I worked at Per Se, I mean, I think they all thought something was wrong with me because I always had earbuds on. Always. Like my parting gift when I left, they gave me a pair of headphones.

You know what I mean? And now it's nothing for everybody to have headphones on because that's part of your phone, right? It was really interesting. So music plays a big part. And just lifestyle. Like, you know, I think, you know, Mouton Noir is about embracing what makes you different and using it to your advantage, right? Definitely as I grow older, you're starting to see

everybody starts to want to kind of fit in. And what truly makes you unique is being you. And you should use that. Yeah. And what's interesting too is that you also, on one level, it's you bringing, like integrating all the parts of you into the brand and into the product that you're actually sharing with other people so that they can enjoy what's inside the bottle. But at the same time, the branding that you use, when somebody who bought that bottle or a restaurant that serves that bottle puts it out on the table, without anybody opening the bottle, it immediately says something about them too.

So it's like you're you're transmitting and also it's almost like you're starting a little bit of like a you know like a movement where it's like if this is cool with you raise your hand you know and then turn it around and show other people and it will provoke an action like somebody's gonna see the label and you think it's really cool or funny or interesting or really not like it yeah there's there aren't gonna be a lot of people that see your branding and be like, yeah. Which is a good thing. Yeah, it's either or. I'm okay with that.

You put it out there. Yeah. And you let the people decide. And yeah, I went to stop by a restaurant not too long ago and the maitre d' pulled me to the side and I was introduced to the maitre d'. He's like, oh, this is the OPP guy. This is the guy who makes this wine. And he pulls me to the side and he says, you know, I have to tell you, man, I've been in

this business for 15 years and I'm astonished by the amount of photographs people take at this bottle. And so he's like, yeah, I got a couple of corner seats at the bar for you, you know, I was going to grab a drink with a friend. And then he came over and he says, hey, man, this table over here just ordered a second bottle of your wine and I just told you you're in the house. Do you mind going over there and taking a picture with me? I was like, sure.

Yeah, I think the whole idea is to evoke some type of emotion. I mean, and I think that's, to me, that's what wine is about, savoring moments, right? I don't want my wine to be considered the centerpiece of your table. It's a condiment, right? It's supposed to make everything that you do better, like, you know, more enjoyable, right? It's like the background music, you know, supposed to make conversation with friends better, dinner better, a book that you're reading better, music that you're listening to better. I don't feel like I need to be center stage. It has to be center stage or it's something that should be worship.

It should be something that's a condiment to your life, to make your life better. And that's always kind of been the goal. We wanted to make, you know, food-friendly style wines that were transparent and honest, that belonged on your table, and that you should drink wine. And it doesn't matter if it's two-buck chuck, but it's a lifestyle. And the fact that it's not, you know, it doesn't have to, you know, I don't have to wear Ascot to be able to appreciate wine. Yeah, I picture you as an ascot guy. Yeah, yeah. And you don't have to, you know what I mean?

Yeah, I totally get it. It's just one of those things. And I feel like every day that I walk into a shop selling my wares or representing my company, I challenge the status quo. For a lot of people, I'm the last person that would walk through the door that they would ever think knew anything about wine. And that's empowering. And that's great.

And that's a great feeling. It's just been a really fun adventure to see what that looks like. And then also to build something. Right? Like you look up every now and then. You know, I'm not a person who celebrates small victories. I can't live in the past, right? I just can't.

And so, and the weird thing about me is that it's the next one, right? It's like, hey, you know what? You should have had me on the show two years ago, right? That's just my mindset, right? Like if Oprah ever said to me, it's like, hey, did you ever think when you worked at Red Lobster that you would ever be sitting on my sofa? And I'd be like, hell yeah, I did. I just had to prove it to everybody else. And that's no disrespect to you or to her or to anyone else. That's just how I'm wired. It's just like, okay, I want to do this. Let's keep moving.

All right. So that brings up an interesting question. I saw a piece where you were interviewed in Wall Street Journal not too long ago. And they were talking to you about, I guess one of your goals was to do a million dollars with the company. Yeah, 40. Which you did. And then the conversation wound around, well, like, you know, like how much is enough? And the answer was kind of like, there's never enough. Yeah, I think at some point you turn your attention to something else.

Yeah. I think for me, it's been one of those things where you just, you want it to, I want it to work in a place where I didn't have to worry about the other stuff that I worried about when I was 25. And those are the things that, you know, being financially stable kind of, you know, I think that's a big thing for everybody, right? It's like, okay, now do I pay my car bill? Do I pay my rent? I like those kinds of things.

And I always wanted to be in a place where I didn't have to worry about any of that. Right. And I think that getting to a place like that could allow me to really focus and allow me to be creative and allow me to really be able to build my company. It's all or nothing. Right. I mean, like I couldn't, I didn't even do laundry. I haven't done laundry in like eight years.

Right. Because I would drop it off at the door, you know, I'd chop it off at the Chinese shop around the corner of the cleaners. And, you know, they would wrap it up and fold it in a pretty bag and it would be with my doorman, right? I just gave everything I had to be fully present to be able to work. And the same way now, right? I give everything.

So what's, I want to kind of come full circle. What's the trigger then coming back to our earlier conversation where you're on a plane on Monday and like back on a Thursday, what's in your mind, what's the trigger when that stops? I'm always going to be going. It doesn't matter that I'm not going to be traveling anymore or what that looks like or why I would stop. You know, I've always said, okay, you know what, let's give it, you know, 72 months.

I'm going to go really hard. I'm going to go really hard. I'm going to go as hard as I can. And let's see what it looks like then. But I'm always going to be, whether I, at that point, we decide to say, hey, I'm not going to travel as much. I'm going to turn that over to someone else. Or I sell the company or whatever. But I feel like I'm going to always continue to push.

And I think a lot, it's about legacy. I want my life and I want my work to mean something. I think it's just that simple. I just really want it to mean something. And hopefully by putting myself out there and helping other people, that kind of resonates and being an inspiration to some people. hopefully by putting myself out there and helping other people that that kind of resonates and being you know being an inspiration to some people and the biggest thing when i tell people when i say that to people it's like i hope you meet me and think that i'm nearly not that intelligent

and ask yourself well if he can do it why can't i do it right because that's the question that i ask myself every day right i said wow if that guy's getting how come i can't get it right no disrespect to that person but it's like hey i can do that well why not me how come i can't do that and that's been that's been the biggest driving force yeah i mean to to be able to wake up and move into the world with that lens of possibility is an astonishing gift i'm not many people have it i'm starting to realize that people really think i'm crazy i remember i was i was walking down the stairs in our house and uh i had an idea i was like wow like i've been torn around with this idea of doing a wine coloring book and halfway down the stairs i was like no it's got to be chefs we got it it's got to be food driven and i yelled downstairs to my

wife and she's like what i can't hear you And I turned right back upstairs and shut the door to my office. And in two weeks later, I'm done. I made the coloring book. You know what I mean? I'm a guy of like, I'm going to show you proof of concept because I already know what will happen is that I'll present this idea and then someone would say, no, that's not it. That's not it. I want to see it from start to finish first, show you that there's a proof of concept. Do it so I can learn the business. And then next time around, I'll let someone else do it. Yeah.

You and I are so similar. I'm like, I have like all these ideas. I'm like, there's certain ones I'll just throw out there. But then there are the ones that are actually really close to me where I'm like, no, I'll just like, let's give it a month. I'm just going to, I don't show you when it's done and ready to actually, because at that point, it'd be like people, I think very often we'd look for that, you know, permission for the concept when nobody's going to give you permission, especially for stuff that's just kind of in your head where like, if you actually show them, you know, like, here it is. A lot of people are like, oh, I get it. They don't give you permission for so many reasons. A, like nobody gets to give you permission anyway. It's got to come from the inside out. But also what I've learned, I'm a hyper visual person.

You and I also shared just sort of like a deep geekery around design. I've done all of our own design work for years and years and years. And what I've realized very often is that like I can see it clearly in my head, but I can describe it all day long. And until I actually do it and get it visually out there in the world and put it in front of somebody, nobody's going to actually understand what this really is. So I'm just like, I'm not going to tell you. I'll see you in a month. I'm going to have something cool for you to look at. Let's bring it around full circle, because I think it feels like the right place.

So the name of this is Good Life Project. So if I offer that term out to you, to live a good life, what comes up? To do what you love and to be where you want to be and don't have to. I guess I'm a big authority guy, right? Like, you know, not to answer to anyone, but to inspire everyone. Answer to no one, inspire everyone. I mean, it means several different things to me. I mean, the good life means like having the time to read the New York Times from cover to cover, to make a risotto. I believe in process and things that take, you know, that takes time, right? I believe in that the ultimate luxury is time.

It's something that you can never get back. And being able to choose what you do with your own time and being in charge of that, to me, is the good life. Thank you. You're welcome. Hey, thanks so much for listening. We love sharing real, unscripted conversations and ideas that matter. And if you enjoy that too,

and if you enjoy what we're up to, I'd be so grateful if you would take just a few seconds and rate and review that matter. And if you enjoy that too, and if you enjoy what we're up to, I'd be so grateful if you would take just a few seconds and rate and review the podcast. It really helps us get the word out. And you can actually do that now right from the podcast app on your phone. If you have an iPhone, you just click on the reviews tab and take a few seconds and jam over there. And if you haven't yet subscribed while you're there, then make sure you hit the subscribe button while you're at it. And then you'll be sure to never miss out on any of our incredible guests or conversations or riffs. And for those of you, our awesome community who are on other platforms, any love that you might be able to offer sharing our message would just be so appreciated. Until next time, this is Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project. is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging

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