Good Life Project - Are You Languishing? Escape the Epidemic of Emptiness | Corey Keyes

Episode Date: March 20, 2025

Are you languishing - feeling that gnawing sense of emptiness despite checking all the society's boxes? Renowned sociologist Corey Keyes, author of "Languishing: How to Feel Alive Again in a World That Wears Us Down," reveals powerful practices to reignite your passion, purpose and human connections - the key ingredients to flourishing mental health. Discover an insightful path to feeling vibrantly alive.You can find Corey at: Google Scholar | Episode TranscriptIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Daniel Kahneman about the way we make decisions.Check out our offerings & partners: Join My New Writing Project: Awake at the WheelVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Human beings are like most living things in this world. We are created to feel emotion. And whether we like it or not, whether it's good or bad, at least when you feel emotion, you feel alive. Our guest today, Corey Keys, is a renowned sociologist and psychologist, best known for his research on flourishing and languishing. And his groundbreaking work,

explored in his book, Languishing, how to feel alive again in a world that wears us down. When you're languishing, suddenly you stop doing and you rest and suddenly you don't feel anything. And when you feel this way, it's telling you you've left behind the good things that gave your life meaning. So this thing languishing, like I think I kind of get it. How do I know if I have it? You can feel it when you've lost some of those things. You're starting to feel like what was a fullness to your life is empty.

So I'd love to drop into that a little bit more. The risk of depression and anxiety among other mental disorders is so much higher among those who are languishing, and yet we're not taking it serious at all. We're not even measuring it in our public health system. Good Life Project is sponsored by Avino Baby. So, you know, there's something remarkable about how nature protects newborns, that natural moisturizing layer babies have in the womb. It got me thinking about how delicate baby's skin really is. So, I've learned it's actually about 30% thinner

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and motivate you. Just open the app and tap into your well-being with advice and insight from leading influencers and experts and professionals. Whatever your focus or interest, there's a listen for it on Audible. You'll find titles on better health including personal fitness, nutrition, relationships, and relaxation. Maybe explore new career strategies or reimagine your financial life.

I recently listened to No Bad Parts by Richard Schwartz and just learned so much about my different parts and how they affect me. Ultimately, it's all about starting good habits. Making a positive change is the best resolution you can make for yourself and Audible can help. There is so much opportunity and more to imagine when you listen. Let Audible help you reach the goals you set for yourself and Audible can help. There is so much opportunity and more to imagine when you listen. Let Audible help you reach the goals you set for yourself. Start listening

today when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.ca. Good Life Project is sponsored by Self-Conscious with Chrissy Teigen, a new podcast from Audible. So if you love our deep conversations about living well and personal growth, you'll wanna listen to what Chrissy Teigen is creating. Each week, she partners with brilliant minds like Mel Robbins, Adam Grant, Gabby Bernstein to unpack transformative ideas about living well

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every episode offers practical wisdom that you can apply right away. So if you're ready to expand your self-awareness and discover powerful new perspectives, go to audible.ca slash Chrissy podcast or wherever you get your podcasts and start listening today. I didn't know about depression. So that was a godsend because I think what happens to a lot of people is they don't have a word for it and they can't describe it. And so

I think a lot of well-intentioned clinicians and psychiatrists will just lump it in with depression. But what I was feeling then, and I still experience it personally, several, on many days, is this gnawing sense of emptiness. Like there's a huge void. Literally, physically, there's this void in me. And the desire is that I want to fill it up immediately and get rid of that feeling. And so that sense of emptiness and that sense of a void being inside of me is what helped me understand. I think that we were talking about something different from depression and especially from not only depression but burnout as well. Yeah, I mean that makes a lot of sense. I know you write, it was more like I was on autopilot compelled to keep doing, to throw myself at activity after activity, leaving little room for the thoughts that rose up when I was alone with

myself. And I have to imagine that a lot of people are listening to that and probably nodding along, thinking to themselves, oh, yeah, I felt that, or I'm feeling that, or some version of that, but really not understanding what that means, how to describe it in a meaningful way, or whether even, is there something wrong with this or is this just grown up life?

It's been with us. It's part of life, Jonathan. Yes. And that's what I learned as I began to go down the historical road to understand whether there was any equivalent in prior centuries. And it turns out, yes, I write about this eighth deadly sin that did exist prior to the 12th century in Christianity. And it was called Assyria. And Assyria, when it's described by these religious adherents and the monks, particularly, they were the desert monks, as they were known back then, they were writing about this feeling particularly they were the desert monks as they were known back then. They were writing about this feeling of having no feeling. That's the irony. We have to talk about it as a feeling, but really when you're languishing,

suddenly you stop doing and you rest and suddenly you don't feel anything. And that's the amazing thing. Human beings are like most living things in this world. We are created to feel emotion. And whether we like it or not, whether it's good or bad, at least when you feel emotion, you feel alive because you're responding to the vicissitudes of life. Languishing back then was this stagnation and emptiness and feeling numb. And it often led these religious adherents to stray from the path, which, you know, is not good if you are seeking God in this life and to it, right? And so it was considered sin, a source of sin. And then it got removed in the 12th century.

I could tell you the exact Pope, Pope Gregory the Great, but we don't know why. We don't know why. And I can only speculate that it didn't quite fit neatly in the other deadly sins that we now know as the seven. So it's there. It's been with us and it will always be with us because here's what the way I think of it It's a existential wake-up call or an alarm clock When you feel this way, it's telling you you've left behind

The good things that gave your life meaning direction purpose and all those good things that make life worth living So it's like an alarm clock that goes off when you started to do things that take you away from those things that were giving your life purpose, belonging, contribution, and meaning. And it's telling you, it's like knocking on the door saying, wake up, you don't leave me behind too long, because if you stay there at this point of emptiness too long as I say it becomes pathological Previously, it's a normal response telling us You've you need to go back to doing the things that were giving you meaning or you need to stop devoting all your time to things That are taking you away from those things that gave your life meaning

taking you away from those things that gave your life meaning. So I think what happens is that we hit the snooze bus button on that existential alarm clock much like we hit the snooze button when we say I want to get up at six o'clock and exercise and I go, I don't want to. And when we do that, then it goes from a normal response to the loss of meaning to a pathological place where lots of bad things start to happen as I detail in the book. It seems like you also, you describe, this is actually straight out of, I think it's some of the research that you did. I think you published it around 2002 where you were analyzing some data from 95, like this data set of midlife experiences, and kind of identified this spectrum from flourishing to moderate mental health, to languishing, to depression.

So it does seem like this is sort of like a state that falls within the broader spectrum of mental health. Yes, the way I think of it is, it's a state of being mentally unhealthy. You don't necessarily end up and go from being mentally healthy to immediately mentally ill. Right? You sort of, you can fall in this in-between category where you spend a lot of time being mentally unhealthy. And as we know, the equivalent is we do a lot of physically unhealthy things that

don't immediately create disease and physical illnesses. But if you persist, right, don't immediately create disease and help physical illnesses. But if you persist, right, don't get enough sleep, your diet isn't very good, and you don't exercise and you smoke or you drink too much alcohol for too long, eventually it creates, it goes from physical unhealth to physical illness. And that's the way to think of languishing. It's a place where you are mentally unhealthy. And in and of itself, it's not very good for you to be there.

But if you stay there too long, you can begin to slide into what we now consider the mental disorders that we now are taking far more serious. Yeah, so it's almost like a, not necessarily a leading indicator of where you're heading, but a warning light to a certain extent of where you might head. Does that land? I love the way you put that.

That's exactly it. Or it's sort of a diversion of the wake up call. And it's telling us, OK, this can go one of two ways. It's telling you, you need to engage in activities that restore, right, restoration of good mental health, which I call flourishing, or you are going to persist in doing the things that are leading you away from those things that create flourishing because you think they're more important, right? They're part of your career, they're part of a variety of other things

that society has taught you. Those are far more important. And if you do that far too long, well, it'll go in a much worse direction. So it's a leading indicator in the sense that we should be as a society, I even argue public health needs to take this far more serious because we need to respond to it before it leads to even worse problems. I know in that same early data set, we learned that the risk of major depressive episode was two times more likely among languishing than moderately mental healthy adults and nearly six times greater among languishing than flourishing adults.

So that is huge. That is quite the wake up call. You would have thought so. And I want to step back and correct something that I should have thought about ahead of time. I use the word moderate mental health and that sounds like it's okay. That's good enough. What it really means is that you're languishing mildly to moderately. If you're not flourishing, here's the thing, you're languishing to some degree. And even if you're languishing in the moderate category, you have a much higher elevated risk for a variety of problems, not the least of which is if you've never had depression,

your risk has gone up pretty high compared to people who are mentally healthy. That is flourishing. So even those who are moderately mentally healthy, who are languishing moderately, they need our attention because it will continue to get worse. They will go from moderate and slide into what I call now severe languishing. What I used to just call languishing is a severe form of languishing. And that's where you get risk and odds ratios that go to five to six times of what you just

talked about. That's alarming risk. And yet here I am 25 years later from publishing that data and publishing more studies, and I'm not the only one showing this, that the risk of depression and anxiety among other mental disorders is so much higher among those who are languishing.

And yet we're not taking it serious at all. We're not even measuring it in our public health systems. I wanna get more granular and understand this more and also understand how to really suss out maybe how it's showing up in our lives and what we can potentially do about it. But also, I wanna zoom the lens out before we get there and explore, how did we get here?

From a societal level, you described, what, how did we get here? You know, from a societal level, you described that all the way back, you know, there was this ascent that kind of functionally equated to languishing then was, you know, like doesn't appear in the late eternity more, but the human condition and really focusing sort of like on the modern state of the human conditions. Or what do you see as really the significant contributors to this experience?

And are you seeing this become a more pervasive experience in people? I wish we had the historical data to answer that question that it's becoming more pervasive, I can say that during the pandemic, it was very clear that languishing was among the most severe problems when it came to the mental health area. For instance, I can cite you some data that in Australia where they were using my measure along with measures of depression, anxiety, and measures of stress. And stress, anxiety, and depression rose roughly 10 to 13 percent. So and stress was around 10, anxiety was around 12, depression was 13 to be exact. I'm surprised actually it wasn't higher.

No, I, but this was, now this was 29, comparing 2019 to 2021. Got it, got it. So I'm pretty sure that was just within the first year. Right. And what happened was that languishing increased by 24% within that same timeframe. And there's now data that I just saw published within the last six months on teenagers within the first year and across 15 different countries. Within 2021. Roughly 8 to 13% increase in languishing among females and males.

And even though males were doing slightly better male teenagers on average. And even though males were doing slightly better, male teenagers on average than the females, they had a slightly larger increase in languishing than the females. But it is very responsive to changes in our life. And so I suspect historically we could actually go through some monumental changes that have really sort of happened in our lifetime. Not the least of which was that a fundamental change in the basis of our economy. In our lifetime, we saw our economy shift from a primary manufacturing to a primarily service driven economy where in the latter educational attainment and more of it

is critical if you're going to succeed and if you don't have access to good education and continued education and achieving higher levels of education in this economy you will end up in the low level and end of service jobs where you have to cobble together more than one job just to get through. But here's the thing, and I read about this in the book, people who have high education have more work than they've ever had. They're working more hours than ever. And they're stressed out now in this new world, just as much as the people who are stressed

out because they're working fewer hours on average and have to put together two, sometimes three jobs and can barely make ends meet. So they're stressed out because they're working so much, but they can barely put food and healthcare in their household. And that is just one fundamental change that we don't seem to recognize in the previous economy. Getting a high school education and getting some sort of apprenticeship was enough to get some pretty decent jobs in a manufacturing economy. Those are gone. Those are almost all gone.

And the key to doing well in this world today is full access to really good education for the very beginning of life. And we're not addressing any of that right now in terms of inequalities. So, I mean, so much in our life has changed. And then the last one, as a sociologist will point out, literally, we have had the rug that comforted our feet from the coldness of the floor of life pulled out from under us. Think of my parents had pensions. Now, if you go online now, nobody is prepared for retirement. And lots of people are now having to say, I'm going to have to work until I'm 70 to sometimes 80. That they are living in a world where they're told to save for retirement, but they don't have enough money to even deal with today's.

Debts, let alone save enough money to retire. Those are just two ways in which I think we feel like the rules of the game have changed. Nobody asked us, and now we're told to be resilient and smile and get along and be thankful we have work. Right? Yeah. I mean, when you look at the bigger socioeconomic situation, it kind of makes sense that so many people would be feeling this experience of languishing, especially if you came up

with a certain set of expectations, you know, and sort of like in the middle, it feels like everything changed. You're like, but I was doing all the right things. You know, I was like, I was traveling the path, I checked the boxes and there was a certain implicit promise. And now it feels as you described, the rug's been pulled out. I wonder as you described that, as we move into what

I see as the next major evolution in contribution and work, which is AI, how that is going to shake all of this to the core as well. Because it seems like now, actually, the people who feel most exposed and are questioning their promise the most are actually those who invested substantial years and money in higher education. And they're seeing the work that is a part of the knowledge work generation being the work that is potentially going to transition the quickest.

I think we're in such an interesting window when it comes to this right now. I don't think anybody really knows how it's going to shake it out. No, and you've put your finger on a really important issue that I think if we as a, if we want to succeed in whatever is to come next, I think if we want people to still invest themselves into something of the knowledge economy, we have to be prepared to say that there is something of use beyond just being a brain dump, right? That we're more, that you can't just take all that we've created and thought and simply say now you're smarter than us because you did a massive brain of all of humanity without

saying you know we still need people because of their amazing ability to be creative now I'd like to think that there is going to be a challenge posted to people that we can't rest on our laurels. And maybe this will motivate a lot of us to really be motivated to be as creative and thoughtful and as useful in the way human beings can be and And to have a really deep conversation, are we really necessary? And I know the answer to that is yes, but we're now gonna be challenged.

What's gonna be the next great thing that we as human beings can do that machines will not do? And I'd love to hear what people think. Let's unleash that because we have been a pretty amazing, we respond when things get really tough. And I'd like to believe that it will get tough and we're going to respond and say, yeah, but there's so much more lect in humanity. We haven't begun to scratch the surface. You wait. Yeah, I'm right there with you. And I feel like moments like these can be challenging

and maybe the next five years or so, but also it pushes you into the existential questions that so often we just kind of push to the side and we put our heads down, we do the work, you know, like we push through, we strive for what are the, you know, the cultural expectations of, you know, like quote success are for us.

And we just kind of assume this is it rather than saying, but what is this? You know, like, and what is our, like, what is our role? Like, how do we take the seat in, you know, like, the culture of humanity and just individually? Like, what does it mean to me? Like, what am I, how do I contribute in a way that makes me feel alive? And I think it's forcing a lot of people who've been able to ignore those questions to actually return to them.

And of course, that's going to be some hard thinking. But my hope and my sense is on the other side of that, that we really start to examine how we show up in the world and don't in new ways that allow us to not just continue thriving flowers, but to feel better in the moment along the way. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Good Life Project is supported by Audible. So this year, why not let Audible expand your life by listening? You can explore audiobooks and podcasts and exclusive Audible originals that will inspire and

motivate you. Just open the app and tap into your well-being with advice and insight from leading influencers and experts and professionals. Whatever your focus or interest, there's a listen for it on Audible. You'll find titles on better health including personal fitness, nutrition, relationships, and relaxation. Maybe explore new career strategies or reimagine your financial life. I recently listened to No Bad Parts by Richard Schwartz and just learned so much about my different parts and how they affect me.

Ultimately, it's all about starting good habits. Making a positive change is the best resolution you can make for yourself and Audible can help. There is so much opportunity and more to imagine when you listen. Let Audible help you reach the goals you set for yourself. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.ca. With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan. You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data

and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz. Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. I feel like we're emerging out of the generation of happiness. Not that we're leaving happiness behind, but there's been so much literature and so many popular books and so many conversations and so many talks and videos. happiness, not that we're leaving happiness behind, but there's been so much literature

and so many popular books and so many conversations and so many talks and videos about, you know, like pursuing happiness. Not that happiness is a bad thing, but you know, you sort of say like, is that really the thing that we should be focusing on here? Yeah. And the father of capitalism. That's what he's considered. Adam Smith wrote about this. It's a remarkable tome. And he uses this word. It's a deception.

And I don't think economists who talk about this really do justice to getting at what Smith was talking about. Because what he was really talking about before psychologists came along and studied the hedonic treadmill was that's exactly what putting happiness in the material pursuits of things does to us. You can never, ever have enough. Because we respond to change. We adapt to the way things, when we have a change in our life and an improvement, we adapt to it. We get used to it. Nothing wrong with that. That's the nature of life.

So we will want more of what felt good. But he said, he goes on in the theory of moral sentiments to talk about we need something besides the pursuit of material goods to correct that deception, which is when you look at every spiritual tradition, let's take Buddhism for example, which we deconstructed into just mindfulness, there's the Eightfold Path, right? Yoga, every yoga tradition, and I'm a person who really loves yoga. It's not enough just to go on the mat and do poses. That's what I call the sun base camp for focusing on what you need to do

to be a better kind of person in this world. The ethical stuff, right? So that's what's I think missing in this conversation. And while I re-talk about it, it seems like humanity has a really hard time getting their hands around religion and spiritual traditions. Like, what should we keep and what should we throw out? Right now we want to throw out baby with the bathwater. And yet there's something about the fact that human beings need to study and think about and be mentored and encouraged to work on their character, right? To become better at doing the things that human beings are

meant to be doing, which is to help each other, to live for something beyond yourself, right? And so I think that's what we're missing. And it's not like I'm going to prescribe religion for everyone, but I think we need to stop and think. This leaving behind the sacred stuff that we've kind of are uncomfortable with and not putting something in its place

is going to leave us languishing in this world and without answers to those existential questions. Yeah, that's such an important notion. I was talking to a dear friend of mine who's a Buddhist teacher in lineage of Tibetan Buddhism. She's studying teaching 30 years now. And we've had a similar conversation. As you described so often, just the meditation, mindfulness has been kind of sanitized and just dropped as this standalone solo practice. Now, there's nothing wrong with doing that practice. It's research, it has some like really powerful benefits,

but when you take it out of the bigger basket of ethical considerations and thoughts and ideas and explorations, we just lose so much. It's like, as you described in yoga, you know, like we, so many people come to yoga for the postures, the asana, right? Not realizing that part of, you know, that's certainly the traditional eightfold path of yoga

is what they're also, you know, like the yamas and the niyamas, the ethical considerations, like, you know, like what, how we show up and don't show up. They're like, they're the outer limbs that move us towards, you know, like focusing and samad and don't show up. They're the outer limbs that move us towards focusing and samadhi, the experience of unification. And that this was, that core of just the physical part of it, that was just intended to get you ready.

So you could actually sit long enough and be comfortable to explore the other things. And again, those pieces have standalone value. They're good. But when we strip all the other stuff out, they're not enough. No, and there's some research that shows this. And I love the way you've described this, because I think the other part of the ethical path and why we need to quiet the mind and the body before we can really work on those things mind and the body before we can really work on those things is because if we can become non-reactive to the things that have nothing to do with us personally, then we can direct our attention

on ourselves and our own weaknesses, our own shortcomings, our own sins and vulnerabilities, and not be overwhelmed by them and understand that, you know, that too can pass if I work on them. So to me, the quiet mind is about to become a better person so that you become a better person in the world. And I've always said, and I said this in the book, if you want to flourish, you can't just demand these things to come to you. You have to give them as well. Like, if you want a sense of belonging, which is one of the 11 indicators of functioning well

in this life, a sense of social belonging or integration? I challenge you, when was the last time you welcomed anybody into your own community or circle and said, you belong here, I want you here, you're a part of my community, especially people who might not think and look like you. So if you want a sense of belonging and you want to be welcomed, the question is, start with yourself. How welcoming are you and do you invite others in?

It's an amazing thing that we seem to want to throw that away and we think the world needs to give us all these things. Well, they're going to come if you give them as well. So I'm like, I have to live that lesson myself. I don't say this in a preachy way. I have to learn those lessons and I have to work on every day. I think we all do. Like nobody gets to opt of this. It's like, we're all stumbling forward, you know, in our own unique ways. What I'd love to do is narrow us, our focus a little bit. I think it's been really interesting

to look at the macro picture here and the broader notions, but no doubt somebody's gonna be listening to this, watching it, and in their mind, one of the big questions is gonna be, okay, so this thing languishing, like I think I this, watching it. And in their mind, one of the big questions is going to be, okay, so this thing languishing, like I think I kind of get it. But what does it really look like on a day-to-day basis?

And how do I know if I have it? So I'd love to drop into that a little bit more. Yeah, there, yeah, this gets me to the, sort of with some of the questions that are used in my measuring the tool. Right? I call it the mental health continuum. And there's a short form because, you know, as we scientists, we start out trying to be

as inclusive as possible. And there used to be 40 questions we would ask and I've narrowed it down to 14 at least and maybe in the future we can narrow it down a little more but those 14 questions get at three kinds of well-being and the first is what we talk when it comes I call it emotional well-being which is that happiness tradition and I ask ask people, you know, how often in the past two weeks or past month did you feel either happy, satisfied with your life, or interested in life? And you have to have one out of those three, at least one of the three,

feeling good stuff, every day or almost every day, to begin to meet the criteria for what I call flourishing or to be mentally healthy. But then there are 11 other questions, five of which get at what I call social wellbeing. I ask you, how often in the past two weeks did you feel that the things you do contribute anything of worth or value

to your community or to your society? How often in the last two weeks did you feel that you belonged to a community? Now give some examples. How often in the last two weeks were you able to make sense of what's going on in the world around you? Alright, those are just three out of the five. And then there's six psychological well-being. How often did you like most parts of your personality, which is self-acceptance? How often in the last week did you feel that your life had direction or meaning,

which we call purpose? And the third example I'll give you out of psychological well-being is how often in the last week did you feel confident to think and express your own ideas and opinions, right? So to flourish, it's not enough to feel good every day or almost every day. You have to have at least six out of the eleven signs of functioning well. Right?

The five social well-being and six psychological are representations of that you're functioning well in this life. So, you have to have at least six out of those of the 11 every day or almost every day combined with at least one of the feeling good. And so I like to think of flourishing as you can put together, right, if you think of all the various combinations, right, you only have to have seven out of the 14, one out of the feeling good. There's lots of different ways human beings

find a way to flourish. Some might prioritize purpose. Some might prioritize personal growth and self-acceptance, right? And so I love that notion that there's a variety of different ways people can flourish and that you only need seven out of the fourteen. When people sometimes hear the word they jump right to the conclusion that I've given them another standard for perfectionism. No, you don't have to be good at all of them in order to flourish. It's just half. Seven out of the fourteen. But it's got to be that combination, Jonathan. It has to be that you feel good about a life in which your life has those examples of functioning well. It has purpose. It has belonging. You're contributing things to your community. It's

that you're accepting of others. You're accepting of yourself. You exercise some confidence and you participate in the common good, giving your opinions. So it's a kind of feeling good that's premised on something that I would consider has substance. I mean, what's interesting also is, tell me what the three different conditions were for the first question, again, the three different conditions were for the first question again the three different states it was in interested yeah interested in life satisfied with life or happy okay so what's interesting to me is you're not you don't have to check all three of those boxes you know it's if you can say yes to one which means you can be going through an experience or maybe a season where happiness feels really hard to access and we've all been there

and we all will be there again. Maybe you're struggling with a loss, maybe there's a challenge at work, whatever it is. And you're saying that doesn't opt you out of the possibility of flourishing. Just because you can still, like, you can still say, like, I'm not happy right now. You know, like, there's, things are really hard,

but I'm actually interested, there's things that are happening around me and within me that are interesting to me. And I get to check that box. And then, you know, like, I want to look at some of the other ones also but like it's not about you know you can you can flourish you can sort of you know like find your way out of or not be in the space of

languishing even if in the moment you're not necessarily happy which is interesting to me. Yeah I love that you pointed that out because you know there are times in our life and I was there when I was in college sometimes and when I was getting my graduate degree and when I was a professor, there were times in my life where I really had to buckle down and work on some things and get better as a scholar, as a teacher, as a colleague, and that was hard. I did feel particularly good, but I was working on something that mattered,

felt worthwhile, it was engaging, and it was interesting to me. I never lost interest in life, but it didn't always feel good. But when I was working on things that engaged myself and my interest, that was a leading indicator that I was moving in a really good direction. And so I love that point. It doesn't always feel like off the charts, like happiness or satisfaction, but are the things you're doing in your life, do they engage what you would say feel like off the charts, like happiness or satisfaction.

But are the things you're doing in your life, do they engage what you would say your interest? Because those things pulled you forward into life, not away from life. Yeah, and so, I mean, not so often, but at times those interests, you know, like more regularly invested in can grow into passions, you regularly invested in can grow in two passions.

They can grow in two. So that really becomes more of a fire within you. I love that notion. I think I have a better sense for what languishing is now. And also, I think that sort of checklist, the fundamental assessment, the 14 different things is really useful for somebody to just, even if you're not gonna formally fill something out,

to just kind of glance through and say, huh. You know, like, how am I doing according to this? To just get a sense for, you know, what might be going on. Part of my curiosity is, and this is something you write about as well, is also what languishing isn't. You know, you reference things like burnout earlier. We talked about, you know, or if we think about depression, anxiety, burnout, you know, stress, overwhelm.

What's the relationship there? Because my sense is that languishing is not those things. No, and it's not to say that they don't have a connection, but you're right. And just going through a few of the questions that I use to measure flourishing, you're right, all of those questions are about the presence of good things. Interest, happiness, satisfaction, a sense of purpose, a sense of belonging, your sense of contribution, acceptance of other people, a sense that you can make sense of out of the world, you're confident. Languishing is the loss of that good stuff. And that's why I said it's a one-line call.

Because suddenly you can feel it when you've lost some of those things. You're starting to feel like what was a fullness to your life is empty. It's disappearing. And languishing is the absence of those good things, purpose, belonging, contribution, confidence, autonomy, growth, all of those things, along with you're suddenly, you're not feeling interested in life, not satisfied much, not happy. Depression is all about the presence of negative things, negative emotions and malfunctioning, right?

Psychiatrists measure it as the presence of either sadness or a loss of pleasure in the things that used to bring you pleasure. That's kind of close to interest, but you know. And then there's seven signs of malfunctioning. Things like you're sleeping more or less than you used to. You're eating more or you're eating less than you used to. You're thinking about not wanting to live much more or even ending your life when you never thought about that before. So when you're

not depressed, it means you don't have any of those negative symptoms, or you don't have enough of them. But the absence of depression doesn't mean suddenly you have all those good things, right? Purpose-belonging. You can land right in between. There's nothing bad. There's nothing good. And that's why I called it, and Adam used this phrase,

it's the middle child. It's the middle child way between depression and flourishing or good mental health. Now, burnout's an interesting one because that's when we feel completely exhausted from having gone through a period in life where we have had a lot of demands and challenges. And that happens for people of all walks of life, even the high-end professionals with

high educational degrees, right? The difference is that a lot of people who have a lot of high challenges with really good jobs and good education have a lot more discretion and can manage those high challenges. And they have choice over how and when. Sometimes they do those things compared to people with lower prestige or lower socioeconomic

standing and jobs where they don't have choice or discretion over anything that has to do with their work. So burnout is about when you meet a lot of challenges with very little personal discretion or choice or support. And I love the fact that, you know, there's lots of studies that have come out, and I write about many of them, and that, I like to use the word, people can do hard as long as they have support and camaraderie and choice and discretion. And there's also lots of data now showing

that when people are flourishing, they can handle a lot more challenge. So burnout is what happens when we meet challenge without good mental health, right? When we're languishing and when we don't have much support in or very little control over our life or very little discretion over when things happen and how they happen. And so I like to think of, you know, burnout can land you in languishing, but languishing

can also be a source of burnout. You can feel completely without control and without any sense of choice over your life. And so you just are dealing with all of this adversity without any sense of agency over handling it and how to handle it. And so it gets to people when they have very little control or choice or discretion Over how they meet challenge. Yeah, that makes so much sense and that the whole

I've heard it described in the past maybe was in literature is locus of control like when we feel like we don't have the ability to Both have enough control over the means to actually achieve something or the outcome that we're responsible for delivering on its means to actually achieve something or the outcome that we're responsible for delivering on, it's a brutal effect. And especially if you're just kind of like heads down grinding towards it, but you feel like you don't have what you need to either opt out of it or to do what's being asked of you and you just go and go and go until there's nothing left to grind. I have been there. Pretty much anyone I know has been there sometimes at my own hand. I have been there, pretty much anyone I know

has been there sometimes at my own hand. And I have to pull out and actually ask, like, what am I doing here? But it's really interesting that distinction you made as well between languishing and conditions like depression, where like languishing is more like the absence of, the feeling of I'm empty of all these things.

And depression is the presence of all these other things that really become heavy for us. It's an interesting way to think about teasing out what maybe is going on internally. And by the way, for anyone listening or watching, we are not offering mental health advice here. We're not your therapist, we're not, like these are ideas

that I think are just really interesting and valuable. And if you feel like you're feeling any of these things at a level where it's really intruding into me for your life, please, please reach out to other people who are qualified to, to help you on an individual level. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. What if everything you thought you knew And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Concerns soon arise, it forces them to question her actual identity. Told from multiple perspectives, Good American Family is inspired by the true events behind the disturbing story of Natalia Grace, and unpacks the case that spiraled from private

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When you sort of think about then looking forward, okay, so, you know, we've developed this tool to help identify the experience of languishing the 14-point questionnaire that you walked through. There's also sort of like a bit of a new flourishing framework that you offer. Now, I'm familiar with frameworks like PERMA or PERMA-V or PERMA plus four, which I think is the Claremont sort of like modification of that, that has come out of the world, the positive cycle for the last 30 years or so. Um, how do you look differently?

Like when you look at that, do you have an adaptation or something, a modification of that model when we think about, okay, so this is what, you know, what really needs to be present to fully be in flourishing. My work proceeded by over a decade, all those other models that came out, like PERMA and others later. And they all share in common the roots of the wellbeing literature

that when I sat down to look at them, I was bringing together what was two very separate research traditions in psychology. There was a whole one tradition that focused all on the hedonic stuff, the feeling good and the happiness satisfaction. And they called that subjective well-being. And then I ended up working at Wisconsin when I was getting my PhD in sociology with Carol Riff, who was championing suddenly this other tradition of well-being that came out of Aristotelian philosophy, which was about human excellence, right? And she created those six dimensions of psychological well-being. And she was arguing, and her

classic article said, happiness is not everything, right? That's the title. There's more to it, to this well-being stuff. And I remember in our first meetings and I said, well, you know, we can test this empirically. Do these two traditions sort of, are they, do they really sort of operate independently but need to be brought together empirically? And it turns out, yeah, we did research on it, that there's lots of people in the world who are feeling good, but not, they don't have very high psychological well-being. And there's a whole bunch of people who are doing well on the well psychological well-being, but they're not feeling all that happy or satisfied.

And then there's a whole group where they brought it together. They feel good about life where their life also has high levels of psychological well-being. That was the beginning of what I saw, the opportunity to build a model of mental health. Because the way psychiatrists deal with mental illness is to look at anhedonia, that's depression, right? Combined with malfunctioning. And what, when I finally started to work with Carol Riff, I realized the literature offered us this opportunity to look at feeling good and functioning well. And my aha moment was, you know what, when you put those together, that's mental health. And so that's always been my framework.

When I use the word flourishing, I'm talking about mental health, not something that anyone else is talking about. I offered a diagnosis, nobody else offers a diagnosis. So to me, it's not enough to just create measures of flourishing without providing some basis in either engaging what came before you, that somehow you're adding to mental health or you're saying something different from what I first proposed. So I think there's some unnecessary confusion that was created in the field because there's now all these people measuring flourishing, but they don't mean the same thing. I've been very clear. I'm measuring mental health and its absence from the get-go. And I will not change because I think the feeling good and the functioning

is just like turning depression on its head. And we need to do that because we need to focus on mental health and its absence If to prevent the very things that we're not doing a good job fixing which is mental disorders so yeah, I'm happy that people are interested in this field, but I'm not happy because They never really bothered to offer any distinction from what I meant by flourishing. And I published this 10 to 12 years before anyone else. And I'm like, well, if I had to do what you were doing, I would be asked to say, well, what do I mean by flourishing? And how am I different from what came before me? And so, you know, that's it. It's just confusing to the world right now. And I think And so, you know, it's just confusing to the world right now. And I think, I'm glad, I think we'll sort this out,

but I'm not gonna change because I think it's clear. I'm talking about mental health in its absence. I don't know what everyone else is talking about when they're talking about flourishing. Yeah, it is interesting how everyone puts their own stamp and their own model and their own naming convention. And then you have to figure out like, are we all talking about the same state or are we talking about like something slightly to the left, something slightly to the right?

So if we shift gears a bit into some of the things that we might think about saying yes to, you know, like to help us move from languishing to flourishing. One of the things that you explore, I thought it was really interesting, is this notion of the importance of self narratives, the stories that we tell ourselves about who we are and how that shapes how we feel, how we move through life. Talk to me a bit more about this. Yeah, I love that we start there because I think that's all based on this, what makes human

beings feel alive isn't just about feeling and emotion, that's part of it. But the fact that we, like most living things, were planted here to grow, and we grow when we learn. And when we're learning something we want to learn and grow on, you see it. People act like they're fully alive. You use the word passion. We see passion coming out of them. And it's not all great because it's hard sometimes to learn and to grow. But I think that narrative of the ability to always learn and the ability that means we can always change is that I will tell you, I just came back from one of my regular meetings that I go to almost every day, my AA meeting.

Now in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous, there are hundreds and thousands of stories of redemption. Redemption doesn't happen without the ability to change your narrative from what Dan McAdams called contaminated in a bottom to the fact that I can get through this, not only can I get through this, I can learn, I can grow, and I can continue that throughout my life. So, hitting a bottom doesn't mean the end. Sometimes for many people it's the beginning of a redemption story.

And redemption only happens because we're always capable of learning and growing and changing and becoming better. And if that wasn't true, you know, I don't know why I keep doing it. Why not end your life, really? Once you've failed, if you don't have the story to change, the ability to change your own narrative, which happens because you have the ability to learn and grow, I don't know why we would keep at it. I guess that's why some people hit that point and they ask that very question because they don't have the ability in that moment to see a possibility that is to see them living a story that is different than what they're currently feeling, which often I think is

when other people can be so helpful in this equation, you know, and that's kind of one of the next things that you reference, which is this notion of the importance of those warm and trusting relationships. That's a perfect segue because I mean, none of us would have, would ever have believed that we could, the story of alcoholism can be transformed into sobriety and recovery. If we didn't see and enter those rooms and see other people having worked together and helped each other and using sayings like the following, I'm going to love you till

you learn to love yourself again. Can we do that? And they believe it and we do that for each other. And we wouldn't do, we couldn't change that narrative of shame due to an addiction into a story of recovery where we could help others without others having compy for us and wanting to share all the gifts that they've been given. I just think that's an amazing language in the story. And I, you know, I'm not being anonymous here, not because I wanted, I simply am one of many in different ways who have found a way out of something

that I thought was impossible. And I did it because I had warm, trusting relationships. And I had a place where I belonged. And I had a place where I could contribute. Those are three questions I ask that are part of my inventory of flourishing and languishing. And those are three qualities of connection that we need in our lives in order to flourish. A place where I belong, and a place where I can contribute, and a place where there's warmth and there's trust. Yeah, I mean, so powerful.

And I guess part of the challenge there also is that at the moments where we probably need that most, we often find ourselves having the greatest amount of trouble. Not, I don't want to say finding it, because I want to say seeing it, because often it is there, but there's something about the state that we're in that doesn't allow us to see the fact

that this is actually available to us in the here and now. Yeah, because we don't feel we deserve it anymore. Mm. We've gotten the message, because of the't feel we deserve it anymore. Mm-hmm. We've gotten the message because of the pain that we're... It's usually some form of pain that we're dealing with. It has to do with some form of vulnerability in us that hurts so much that when people touch it and trigger it, we react. And we hurt other people.

And then if you add addictions on top of that, we really do make ourselves hard to be loved because we want to disappear. And so we get to that place where when people do extend warmth, trust, a sense that you belong here, we can't see ourselves as worthy of it. And so that's why the message that I'm going to love you, because you're worthy of loving belonging until you get in and relearn that. So we have others have to believe that

we're worthy of it before we can even see it Yeah, I think probably everybody's felt that at some point gosh Yeah, I think we have you know, which which actually brings us an interesting way to one of the other ideas It's this idea of transcending but it's not transcendence in the way that I think a lot of people think about it Like it's not sort of transcending the human condition or like being enlightened or it's, my understanding is it's more this idea that like, there can be a lot of twists and turns in your life. And it's the capacity, and tell me if I'm getting this right, to know that, you know, like there will be adversity

and challenges that drop and that we have within ourselves, like some capacity to actually find our way through. Yes. And I talk about all these forms of religious practice and spiritual practice as rehearsal. I tried to bring all that stuff. I hated using the word transcendence because I, oh, but it's real.

What we're really trying to transcend is our ego and our reactivity because when we get beyond thinking only of ourselves and when we can respond rather than react there's a better versions of us show up and every time that better version shows up when somebody has done something to us that's pissed us off, or has hurt our feelings, or some form of adversity has visited me, I can slow it down and start to realize, I want to respond to this out of what are my deeply held values, what I really care about, rather than react, which usually makes it worse. And then I leave the situation. I often feel kind of ashamed that

I didn't act like a better version of myself. So it's sort of like the way we all rehearse before we have to get on stage. when we feel other eyes looking at us and they're judging us and it gets stressful, rather than let it overwhelm us, if we rehearse enough ahead of time using these spiritual and religious tools, we can meet adversity and move beyond our egotistical and reactive self and respond to it, which

usually is a better way. It doesn't mean you have to be warm, fuzzy and loving just because somebody just insulted you, but you can stand up for yourself without denigrating them. Right? I could say, you, you don't have a right to hurt my feelings and that hurt. Don't do that again, please. Thank you. Goodbye. And that might be enough.

You'll be proud of yourself. You didn't make that worse than you probably made that person think. I love that. Or I could have said a UMF, right? And do this and then, oh yeah, that made things better, didn't it? Right. For a hot second. And then it's like, then there are the seconds they come after and you're like, oof. Oh boy, that's exactly why I call it, it's all about rehearsal. It's funny as you're describing that, I have an automatic signature on my emails,

it just gets dropped into every email, and the language is with a whole lot of love and gratitude. And there are times where, I'm having an email exchange which may be a little bit adversarial, or a little bit heatedarial or a little bit heated or I don't have good feelings for this person. And I like I say what I want to say and I try and say it in a way that's direct and

respectful and kind if that's available to me. And then I scan down and I see that like that signature line has been placed in the email just automatically because that's my standard signature. And I don't feel that, you know, like I don't feel a whole lot of love and gratitude toward this person in the moment. And there have been a few times where I'm like, do I delete this now? I just put, you know, like, regards. And on occasion I do, but more often than not,

if that happens, I leave it there. And the reason I leave it there is because it's aspirational for me. You know, like, I want that to serve as a reminder to me that this is how I want to try and, I want to try and find a way to feel this way, even in moments like this. And this is more of a reminder to me

to try and step into this relationship, this exchange with a particular intention. So it's a little tiny innocuous thing, but it's been interesting how it's caught me sometimes and been this Momentary reminder of how I want to be in relation with other people I love that honesty because we all know that and human beings need To know what's expected of them normatively. There's that's a deep sociological tradition in in my field

Where we learn very early on from Emil Durkheim that without clear norms in a society, human beings, the rails come off, and we see that right now. We need guidance. We need standards of excellence. We need constant reminders that we're working towards this not alone, but for something bigger than ourselves, a place called a community, a society, which doesn't work unless we are aspirational and are constantly doing the little work that you just talked about. It's big work, actually. Even the most misunderstood philosopher in the well-being literature, Epicurus said, we need constant reminders of the things that really matter, that are good for us. And usually

that is what you're talking about. I need to be reminded, I could be a better version of myself. Yeah. I love Durkheim's works. His concept of collective effervescence, it's just, we can come together as a collective and just feel this just stunning feeling of, you know, it's almost like non-duality, like brought into the modern age. Oh, you just remind, I saw a picture, I didn't know Rogers won the world series last night. Look at the pictures. Those people collectively had that effervescence. They felt a belonging to their city. They felt a belonging to each other. They felt part of something bigger than themselves. And that's when sports like does what religion,

according to Durkheim, was doing for us. Yeah, so true. It gave us a symbol of something that represented society that was good. And we attached to it and we realized we're in this together. We're a team. Throughout this conversation, you've referenced the notion of purpose a number of times. And I think this is probably something that most, a lot of people probably connect with. And this notion of purpose,

and also as an interesting way to help us navigate out of languishing. But I think the sort of teased out nuance here, at least in my reading is this notion of, we're not talking about one big unifying capital P life purpose, right? Which I think a lot of people are stymied by, they feel rejected by it.

Like I don't have it, I can't find it, therefore I can't ever feel the way I wanna feel or live the way I wanna live. It's much more about like, just having a sense of purpose in everyday life and every activities, everyday interactions, which pretty much everyone does have some level of access to. Yeah, I think I sometimes, and I did this, we're very good at, we humans, at complicating things.

And purpose is really about wanting to help something or someone in this world, or think of it this way. In your own little way, in your own little part of the universe, you want to leave the world as good or even better than what you found it. And normally, what's good about helping or taking it up to the level of purpose, when you when I say purpose, I'm saying, you've chosen to devote a part of your life to helping something that has no direct value to you, but you care about it. And you want to help somebody else or something else be better. Or you want to address some form of suffering or injustice in the world. There's all kinds of ways. But I think what happens is we don't think it's a purpose unless it's grandiose. And I don't believe that's true.

You could be leading an amazing purpose quietly in a small community of a hundred people. Right there, alright? Right there, all right? And the sad part of it is that here I am coming to you from North Carolina where just a hundred miles down the road, they were devastated by Helene. And sometimes it takes enormous disasters like that for people to be reminded that, you know, I can be as useful right here in my community because I have to be. And we have to do this together. And so you see an enormous outpouring of people getting involved in doing just what is I call this sense of purpose. They may call it that, but they're probably feeling

this sense that I'm contributing something that's worthy and valuable because it's needed. And that's just go where you, there's something that the world where there's a need and where you're drawn to. And you'll find that kind of feeling where I'm being of use. That's what human beings really want.

We just want to be useful to some degree. Yeah, and it really doesn't take much to find that. If you let go of the illusion that it's gotta be this big thing or else it doesn't count. Like literally, if you take 24 hours and just open your eyes and just say like, one of the tiny little ways I could be useful to a person to an animal to the environment, whatever it may be.

It's like, I feel like when you prime your brain to start to actually look for it, you start to see it in a way that you didn't realize that was just all around you all the time. Yes, yes, because even if you don't see it, if you just take a moment and look into somebody's eyes and talk to them, you'll sense that there is this huge hunger for connection in our world. In our society in particular, we are just hungry for connection. You can feel it It's almost electric and what you need to do is just look each other in the eye and say How are you doing really and mean it And before you know it's like wow, you don't realize how much somebody needed that

Yeah, unless you're in my scene heard much somebody needed that. Yeah. Unless you're in my scene, to be heard. Unless you're in my former home of 30 years, New York city, in which case people look at you and think that you're just some weirdo who wants like money from them or something like that and go across the street, but we do, we all need it. And, um, you know, and it is those little things just to be seen for a moment. I think this can be so powerful. Um, you also talk about the importance of play, which I thought was really things just to be seen for a moment. I think this can be so powerful.

You also talk about the importance of play, which I thought was really interesting and probably really devoid in a lot of people's lives who are doing the adulting thing. You're like, oh, that's the thing we used to do. But now I'm a serious adult. Now I have responsibilities. There's no import of play in my life. If I get an opportunity randomly here and there, sure, that's lovely.

But there's actually no, I don't need to actually have this in my life too. And you make a counter argument to that. And what I love when I talk about play, it becomes even more obvious how these activities, or what I call the five vitamins, start to bleed into each other, encourage each other. Because usually, even as kids, when we start to play up, taking imaginative play aside. But even imaginative play, we do with each other. We engage and

connect. We are part of something social and collective. And so, to me, play is all about doing something just because it's fun. Only because it's fun. Now, fun, it gets in our way because we think, just check your notions of what fun needs to be at the Doge in the same way that you think about happiness as an American. Because happiness doesn't mean the same thing all around the world. It varies in intensity. Here happiness has to be out of a scale of 0 to 10, and 8 or higher. Fun doesn't have to be off the charts either.

It can be enjoyable. That can be your version of it. And, you know, lots of games. I'm not a play researcher, so I can be free with this notion. You know, play researchers argue, well, games had rules and structures, blah, blah, blah. So it can't be played. Well, in adulthood, I'm fine. Whatever allows you to step outside of the time where everything is commodified,

where time is money, and just do because you just want to be with others and enjoy life, you are stepping into the realm of play. But there's so much more. When I learned about why pinball machines were created, I was astonished to find out that the man, the person who created pinball, created it because he wanted people to experience during the Great Depression the sense that what they do matters and to enjoy life because they can get better at accomplishing things and making things happen in the world.

And that's what Pinball, the whole story of Pinball is. And The Man Who Saved Pinball, that movie and book, is all about showing the people in Chicago that it wasn't gambling, it wasn't a game of chance, it was a game that you develop skill. Yes, you had fun. Yes, you had to put a little money in there. But he showed them. I learned to get better at something and I learned that whatever I can focus my mind on and do, I can accomplish something.

So out of all the things you would think that could lead to that, play can teach your children and continue to teach adults that what you do matters. Yeah, I love that. And I've been actively trying to cultivate more opportunities for play in my life for all those reasons. You know, I think it's just, we leave it behind, like sometimes forgetting that it's really fun to do things for no other reason than the feeling it gives you in the moment. And then if you can actually, you know, like build skill around that and gain competence at it also. Yeah. Connection and all those other things. I mean, you look at the world of online gaming these days, and I'm not a part of that world,

but I know folks who are, and they will spend hours and hours and not getting paid to do this. In fact, you know, they're paying for the privilege of having access to the games and the machines. You know, they're paying for the privilege of having access to the games and the machines. And yet it's just, and it's effort. They're working hard. You know, they're probably working harder from a sort of like creativity and a cognitive and a collaborative standpoint

than they may be doing at their jobs. And yet they're doing it simply because they love doing it. You know, it's to them, it is that thing. It's play and they get better at it over time and they do it with other people, you know, and it's there's something kind of magical about it. I love it. And we misconstrue it so much. We tell them they're wasting their time. And I'm like, not, maybe not. That's, I think that's a great example of where they're probably finding some emotional well-being from getting better at something,

in realizing they can be an actor in this world, an agent, they can make things happen. Yeah. And they have connection, they have a community, a place where they belong. It's all right there for the taking. Well, I so appreciate just the larger frame around this concept of languishing and your lens on what flourishing is and these ideas that we've explored. And here are some ways to sort of get a beat on whether this is something you may be experiencing. And then here are some very specific notions that you can bring and explore

to start to make the journey from this experience of languishing into a state of flourishing is I think we all are going to probably find ourselves at some point in some level of this experience and understanding what it is and isn't. And then the fact that it's not a thing that we have to just live in. It's not a sort of a thing, well, this is just life, but there are actually, there are things that we can do to move through it and out of it is, it gives us a sense of agency, right? It gives us that sense of like,

I have some agency on autonomy in this process, which I think is really powerful. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation as well. So in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? I use the phrase, and I know other people have used this phrase, to me flourishing is what I consider the good life.

It's always been my North Star. And I think it's really what people deserve when they think about a good life. Because I think right now, I think we're satisfied with something, a good version of life is good enough. At least it's not terrible. But there's so much more, and I don't think it's a luxury at all. The research makes that very clear. And so I think you have to believe that you deserve more. And that's good mental health. Because that's what I mean when I talk about flourishing.

A good life is being mentally healthy. It's more than the absence of illness. It's the presence of flourishing. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you loved this episode, say that you'll also love the conversation we had with Daniel Kahneman about the way we make decisions. You'll find a link to that episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers, Lindsay Foxx and me,

Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Troy Young, Christopher Carter crafted our theme music and special thanks to Shelly Del Bliss for her research on this episode. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting

or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still listening here. Do me a personal favor, a second favor, share it with just one person. I mean if you want to share it with more that's awesome too, but just one person even. Then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered, to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter. Because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.

Good Life Project is sponsored by Self-Conscious with Chrissy Teigen and new podcasts from Unbol. So if you love our deep conversations about living well and personal growth, you'll want to listen to what Chrissy Teigen is creating. Each week, she partners with brilliant minds like Mel Robbins, Adam Grant, Gabby Bernstein to unpack transformative ideas about living well and understanding ourselves better. What makes this show really special is how Chrissy approaches each conversation,

not as an expert, but as someone genuinely curious about growing alongside us, whether it's exploring the science of sleep with Dr. Matthew Walker or understanding boundary setting with Nedra Glover-Tawab, every episode offers practical wisdom that you can apply right away. So if you're ready to expand your self-awareness and discover powerful new perspectives,

go to audible.ca slash Chrissy Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts and start listening today. With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan. You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz.

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