Good Life Project - Art, Work & Life | Lisa Congdon

Episode Date: November 28, 2019

Lisa Congdon is an acclaimed illustrator, author, speaker, and teacher, known for her colorful graphic drawings and hand lettering, her many books, strong voice on social issues and lens on earning a living in the arts. She has worked with everyone from Comme des Garçons, Crate and Barrel, and Facebook, to MoMA, REI, and Harvard University and so many others. Lisa's most recent book, Find Your Artistic Voice: The Essential Guide to Working Your Creative Magic, explores a path to finding and honing your artistic voice.In today's conversation, we explore the back-story on the events that led to her career taking off in 2016, how she learned to kick the scarcity habit and the shifts that helped her develop her distinctive, deeply personal voice. We also dive deep into the essential elements of artistic voice, what it means to live and work as a whole human being "in the arena", talk about hitting the sweet spot between artistic expression and commercial viability, and get a sneak peek into what Lisa's got coming up next.-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

When I first met illustrator, author, and teacher Lisa Congdon, she was working out of a studio in San Francisco. We became fast friends shortly after we taped our first conversation, and I fell in love not just with her work, but with her big heart, her thoughtful lens on work and life, love and play, and the quest to make things and be creative. I also really love that Lisa didn't come to art until she was almost 40 years old. And over the last dozen years or so, she has shown so many people with her generosity, how it's never too late to step into your creative side, whether or not it

ever becomes your career. And of course, for her, it has now with this really thriving career, a long list of commissions from everyone from private collectors to giant companies, public shows. She is astonishingly prolific, sharing a huge volume of work on social media, creating and selling online in her retail store and workshop in Portland, Oregon, and collaborating to create everything from textiles to all sorts of merchandise. And along the way, she's written and illustrated a bunch of books, taught and spoken all over the world. And now before taking a sabbatical in 2020, she has released one more offering into the world, a great new book called Find Your Artistic Voice, which is all about discovering and sharing that deepest, most unique part of yourself, both as an artist and a human being. conversation, along with things like how saying yes isn't always the best option, the role of

seeming non-creative practices in living your best creative life and life beyond that, and why working less can sometimes actually be a path to more and better work and living, and so much more. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot.

Flight Risk. This book tour was sort of an experiment for me because I've never traveled for this long and sort of simultaneously had to keep marching forward, but also maintain all the aspects of my business and life at the same time. And I'm happy to report that it went great somehow. The look on your face is one of like surprise. Well, I think the whole time I kept thinking like some, I don't know that I expected there to be a disaster, but I think I expected maybe more delayed flights or more glitches. And believe me, there were a handful of glitches in the tour, you know, equipment failures and things like that. Always. And I did, you know, get a really bad cold about a week ago, which I'm now at the tail end of. But other than that, like really it was fine. Yeah.

That's very awesome. Yeah. So as we sit here, Good Life Project HQ in New York City, you and I go back a while now. We do. I think you interviewed me for the first time in like 2012, 2011, 2012, something like that. And back then I was sort of like tracking your movements. We were filming. You had a studio, this really cute studio in San Francisco. It seems like a lifetime ago. Since then, it was like San Francisco and then a move to Oakland and now up to Portland. It's a lot of journeying. It is, yes.

And so much is the same, but so much has changed. What do you feel is the most significant change? The pace of my career and also my sort of leaning into and feeling more comfortable in this place of being somebody who's more well-known or being a thought leader. Like I, that made me very nervous at first. So, you know, there's more of a, you know, I think when, as one's artistic career grows, the hope is right, that opportunities start to abound. And that certainly happened for me, probably most significantly since 2015. So just in the last four years, it's really ramped up. And there was a period in there where it felt very uncomfortable, probably because I was still suffering a little bit from feeling like an outsider or an imposter in some way. And that was something that I really had to confront and move through in order to continue to do what I do. And I am happy to report that I did a

lot of work on that and I'm feeling really good about where I am right now. Yeah. 2015, was there, was it just a gradual evolution that led to movement or did something happen? No, there was no one thing that happened. I think it was a gradual evolution. Instagram has been this sort of magical place for me. I used to keep a blog and that was where people found me and would read about, you know, I wrote a lot about my journey and my work. And when Instagram sort of became a space for creative people to share what they were making. It kind of replaced my blog in a way. And I started just posting there. And around 2015, I gained a lot of traction there through my work. And then again, the next year, I think after the 2016 election, I became much more vocal about things in the world that I cared about.

And that was sort of like fire under my butt to do that. And so I think the combination of finding my audience, getting into the flow of the kind of work that I wanted to make and owning my journey towards making that work and starting to put it out into the world. And then, you know, all of the things that were happening in the world kind of was like, it was sort of confluence of factors that led to, I think, increased opportunity

and engagement from the people who were following my work. Yeah, so it's less inciting incident and more critical mass. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious also, you know, 2015, you're hitting critical mass and 2016, you decide, you know, it's actually important for me as a human being, not just as an artist, but a human being to actually share my values and share my beliefs, social

beliefs, political beliefs in your art. When you make that decision, because at that moment also you're supporting yourself entirely with your art. You know, so the decision, part of that is an economic decision. It's not necessarily the leading thing, but part of it is, has it got to be on some level? Will stepping into what I feel is sort of like ethically the place I need to be affect my ability to support myself in the world?

Yes, and that question was a big one for me. It didn't take me very long to answer it, but I certainly remember in the very beginning of, you know, right after the election and in the very beginning of the you know, right after the election, in the very beginning of the new presidential administration, I had this sort of moment where I was like, okay, I work with this client and this client and this client on a regular basis. I have, you know, I work with this online platform and this online platform, And these are all partners that I've had in my journey so far. I wonder if when I speak out about social justice and other related issues that I care about,

are they going to be angry with me? Are they not going to like that? And so for a moment, I thought about that and I thought, well, we'll see. Because ultimately in the end, it felt more important to me to speak out about the stuff that I care about and that felt important to me. And of course I wanted, you know, I have a brand that is, you know, for lack of a better word, that is about talking about what I'm for, not necessarily what I'm against. and had a certain sense of humor and also was encouraging people to support the rights of vulnerable people and who doesn't want to do that, right? As opposed to F you, this, that, and the other thing. And so I took a very particular approach to talking about my values, but I definitely didn't hold back. And for sure,

what's interesting is that none of my clients, none of my professional corporate collaborators ever balked. And I actually know people for whom that did happen, so I feel very lucky. I did have followers, however, who wrote me long and continue to write me long emails about why they don't necessarily disagree with me. They find it unflattering that I am so outspoken. And so I've really had to express to people that, you know, I'm not here to make you comfortable. I'm here to be Lisa, right? Like you said, like I'm a whole human being. And while you might like my beautiful illustrations, I'm also about something, you know, as most human beings are, and I'm here to be my full self. And so I decided that was more important than trying to please people or keep people

comfortable or lose followers. Yeah, it's so interesting because when you think about what is the, quote, purpose of art, and there's no universal purpose of art. Like, what is the purpose of art for you and for those who would enjoy your art? You know, even there, there's no one answer and it evolves constantly over time. And you're sort of like regularly, I feel like dipping your toe in the water. Like, how does this feel? How does this

feel? How does this feel? And sometimes it feels really good. And then sometimes, you know, whether you get blowback or not, sometimes there's something inside of you, which is like, oh, like that was apparently okay for other people, but there's something in me, which is something doesn't feel right. Like it was internally, there's like that was apparently okay for other people, but there's something in me, which is something doesn't feel right. Like it was internally, there's something that's saying maybe that wasn't right action in some way. It wasn't aligned with who I am and what I believe. Yeah, I think that we're always sort of making choices about, I'm finding myself in this very interesting place because I have a platform. So I have an artistic voice for sure. And that voice encompasses

more than sort of visual aesthetics. I'm about certain things. And my work is, particularly in the last few years, become more about certain things. But aside from that, I also have a large platform. And so I certainly feel like I have a responsibility to use that platform in a certain way. And I'm not always perfect at it. And I don't always say things in exactly the right way or use the most politically correct language. And I try really hard, but I think I'd rather take the chance at using my voice in a way that makes a difference and screw up at it occasionally,

then be too afraid to speak out because I'm so afraid what other people are going to think. Because sometimes I get blowback that is like, that, you know, as Brene Brown says, you know, it's like when people criticize you, you have to, the first filter needs to be like, is that person in the arena? In other words, are they doing the work too? And in a couple of instances, I've had situations where, you know, somebody said, well, that's not really the right term to use for that group of people. Or you might consider including this group of people in your list of marginalized peoples, or, you know, there's always some feedback that I'm getting. And most of the time when I listen to it, it's from people who are also in the arena. They're like also doing the work and that's the kind of feedback I want to listen to.

And then the rest of the time, I'm more listening to my conscience about, you know, and accepting the fact that I'm not always going to do it perfectly. Likewise, I follow a ton of people out there who are doing similar work as me and using their platforms in similar ways and also witnessing them, you know, taking a lot of risks in that way and putting themselves out there and being vulnerable in that way. And it's very inspiring for me to watch. And I feel like I am part of something bigger than myself too. Yeah. It really, it's fascinating to see how so many different people, whether you're writers, you know, painters, it really, it's fascinating to see how so many different people, whether you're writers, painters, illustrators, artists, performers,

how people are making decisions in this sort of like season of culture. And people are making very different decisions. And it's really interesting. Some people who I know personally to have conversations to say what's behind that. And then some people who I don't know, but I love their work, you know,

and you can watch, you're almost trying to extrapolate, like what's the thought process that went into these decisions that led to this output, this work in the world. And yeah, it's such an interesting time to sort of like explore this. I'm a huge fan of Shepard Fairey's work also,

and he certainly doesn't hold back. No, and actually he's a huge role model to all of like explore this. I'm a huge fan of Shepard Fairey's work also. And he certainly doesn't hold back. No, and actually he's a huge role model to all of us because he actually has been doing this kind of work way before the 2016 election. And he's like, he really has kind of been a, you know, he's sort of set the pathway for a lot of us. Yeah, for sure. What also was sort of popping into my head

is this idea of, do we try and create the biggest tent and invite everybody into the tent? And once they're there and they're open to us and what we put into the world, slowly put work into the tent that might move them, provoke them to explore their point of view once they're already sort of like part of the community? Or do we just be very direct and say like, this is my flag in the sand. If you're in, you're in, awesome.

There's gonna be more of it. And if you're not, you're just not one of us. So don't even bother stepping in or looking at anything else I do. I think it's a really interesting dance. To a certain extent, I'm always thinking, if I can invite the greatest number of people into the conversation, even if they don't see the world the way I see it's a really interesting dance to, to a certain extent. I'm always thinking, you know, if I can invite the greatest number of people into the conversation, even if they don't see the world the way I see it,

maybe if there's enough safety and comfort simply in stepping into that tent, then over time, simply being there, maybe some shields will drop. Maybe there'll be some openness or maybe I end up actually learning from them because they stick around for the conversation. That's always a curiosity of mine for like how I choose, even in the context of the podcast, the conversations we have, the guests that we invite. I think that's such an important topic. My approach has always been, you know, I've been accused of sort of creating my own echo chamber. And I think anyone who disagrees with you to a certain extent is

potentially going to, not just me, but anybody who is putting their ideas out into the world. But I really very consciously try to, when I am going to, one of the things I love about Instagram is that you can't, it's not just about, there's not just the opportunity to post a visual, you can actually write about it too. So you can offer some context. And so I think very carefully, especially when I'm discussing anything delicate, and by delicate, I mean anything that could potentially move someone either positively or negatively. I'm very conscious about contextualizing my work and talking about it, why I made it, why it's important to me, what it means to me personally. And I always try to insert my own personal experience.

And part of the reason that's important to me is because I know that there are people in my audience who consume my work, who don't necessarily come from the same background or have the same political beliefs or are not feminists, right? And they're following me because they're curious and maybe they like my work visually and they've maybe bought one of my books. And my hope is that, that, you know, middle class, you know, mom who is sitting in her kitchen in Nebraska who maybe voted a certain way or has never met a real-life gay person or maybe had disparaging beliefs previously about immigrants. I'm generalizing here, but that that person who follows me and listens to my messages and the way I deliver them might actually change her mind about some of those things because I'm doing it in a way that is supportive and hard hitting in my own way, but also invites people into the conversation. I'm always really careful because while I don't get into arguments in my own comment feed, other people do, right? And I want to support people and I try really hard to support people in being part of the conversation. And if somebody asks an honest question, let's not criticize them for that question. Let's support them for being brave enough to ask the question,

you know, amongst a bunch of other people who feel like they already have the answer. And so it is really important to me, as you say, to sort of invite people into the tent to have a conversation. And it's a hard thing to do, but that's really ultimately my goal. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. we dropped into the deep end of the pool pretty quickly i think it's really we've hung out and had conversations over the years so many times.

It's interesting. I was remembering also, you know, like you have been on the podcast before. The last conversation I think we actually had was in front of an audience in Camp GOP a couple of years back. And it was a really interesting moment for you too. This would have been what, 2017 or maybe it was 2016? I think it was 2016. 2016, right. So you were just coming out of that window

where over the last year you had exploded, and you're doing multiple book deals simultaneously, commissions for your art, public, you have a store that's selling your public work online. And you and I grabbed two stools, sat on a stage in front of 400 people. And you basically sat there and said, unbaked. This has been, from the outside looking in, an astonishing year. And I'm sitting here on stage basically completely empty,

trying to figure out what to do next. Yeah, that happened. 2016 was a very important turning point in my career. I had been working at a pace since about 2011 that, you know, I came into this as somebody who worked really hard to get where she is because, I mean, everybody who is an entrepreneur works hard, but like I didn't have any particular connections. I'm self-taught, I didn't come out of art school. And so I said yes to every opportunity that came my way, very much on purpose. And even as that year started to, or the year before started to happen, I didn't stop

saying yes, even though I didn't need to continue saying yes to everything. It was like, I was still in this sort of scarcity mindset where, or, you know, like, I'm going to screw things up karmically if I say no to, you know, like if I say no too many times, like opportunities will stop coming to me, you know, the universe will punish me or something. But I realized around that time that I needed to begin scaling back the amount of projects that I took on because what I was doing wasn't sustainable. I was exhausted. I was physically ill. I was in chronic pain. And so what I did was I sort of wrapped up everything that year that I had said, you know, that I had said yes to. And moving forward, I decided I was going to really scale back in 2017. And I ended up doing that. And 2017 was a really remarkable year for me because

my career continued to grow. I continued to have opportunity, but I just had fewer projects. And it was this year of like, no, the universe isn't going to punish you for taking care of yourself. Actually, the universe is going to give you fewer, better paying projects. And that when you have more, I don't know, reserves for creativity, you're going to make even better work that resonates even more profoundly with people. And that's exactly what happened. I'm just, you know, that was two years ago. I've had, 2019 has been a pretty intense year because I had this book come out and I've been on two different speaking tours, but I also have not continued to overload myself with like a million things. And so even this book tour has been pretty manageable

because while I'm working on a bunch of projects, I'm also, you know, like for example, I've been in New York this week and I spent most of my time exploring museums and not sitting at the house where I'm, you know, occupying a guest room, working on my computer, which says a lot, right? And, you know, next year I'm taking this sabbatical because even coming out of this year, which in no way is been sort of quite as intense as 2016, I still, I'm sort of, I know how much after over a decade of this pace, like I really need to reset in so many ways. There are so many layers to that, but so yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing how often I think, especially in the artistic world, regardless of what domain you inhabit there, how easy it is to drop into sort of like a feast or famine mindset, you know, where I'm only

as good as my last thing. If I slow down or God forbid vanish for a short window of time, it will be as if I never existed. You know, all the talent, all the skill, all the craft, everything I've accumulated will not matter anymore. And, and I've jotted, you know, if it shows up, I've got to say yes and just keep going as hard as I can because it might all go away tomorrow. I see that so much. I think it's so prevalent, as is this, a sense of hustle around promoting your work.

I've seen myself getting caught up in that too. Like it's, it's saying yes to opportunities, but also like posting on Instagram, doing personal projects, like amidst all of paid work and, and sort of filling in every available moment of time with this quest to keep this thing alive, you know, which we're so worried is going to die if we ignore it or, you know, focus on something else for a period of time. And what I'm learning is that, that actually, at least the point in my career that I'm in, that's not going to happen. And I've fortunately watched a few people take breaks

and take sabbaticals and, and move away from their work and focus on different things. And, and I've watched their creative process transform in really remarkable ways that are sort of more important than keeping up with whatever professional stuff you feel like you need to keep up with. And I'm really excited to embark on this like really scary but very exciting time for me. Yeah. I know you to be a pretty detailed and goal-oriented person. You sort of say like, this is what I'm going to commit to.

From the earliest days when you're like, I'm going to put work online every day for 12 months. When you move and you have hit all these benchmarks, I'm going to open an Etsy store. I'm going to write these books. You're really good at saying, this is my benchmark and just working to hit it. When you enter a window, like you're about to enter now, when you're like 2020 is my sabbatical year, do you actually set a goal for that? Or is it more like this is a year where I'm going to create space and see what happens or somewhere in the middle? I think it's both. I do have a solo show that opens in June, which is all personal work, which is all basically whatever. So I have this goal of

the first six months of my sabbatical are going to be primarily focused on just making work. And I have ideas for what that looks like. And of course, my goal is to get it all finished by June. But implicit in that is also some level of exploration and allowing myself to go down rabbit holes and having the time to do that. And I just bought a kiln. You'll be happy to know earlier this year. And I'm- The son of a potter. Yes, I know. And you would appreciate it. When your wife, Stephanie, came into my store earlier, we chatted about it. So yeah, I've been imagining all of the things that I might make

and that are different than anything I've made before. And that really requires amount of, you know, a certain amount of spaciousness and, and openness because believe me, like I don't, I don't entertain any ideas that, that I could just start making ceramics and then they're going to be ready to show in a gallery. So this is something that's going to require a lot of trial and error. So there's sort of built in time for that. I have ideas about going back to some mediums that I haven't touched in years. So I have goals, but I also have a certain amount of spaciousness sort of purposely built in. I also, I have some other kind of personal goals. Like I'm really into road cycling and I have this idea that I want to ride my bike 3000

miles cumulatively next year, which not all at once, obviously just track my miles and potentially raise money through that process for some causes that I care about. So also using some of my quote downtime to be outdoors, doing something else that I love that uses a different part of my brain and my body to also kind of, it's like I made this Venn diagram for next year, which is basically like, you know, artistic exploration, being on my bike and also being a person who continues to show up for stuff that I care about in the world. And like, I've been thinking about how I can merge those three things. And to that extent, I have some goals, but I still also feel like it's important for me not to set too many expectations for myself because I don't want this to turn into a new job.

That's just more self-directed. I want to wake up and have some openness to take my days in different directions. Yeah. So it's like a blend of space and also ritual and practice. Yeah. And it's a little bit of structure, of course. I operate really well under structure. And I'm sure once I start conceptualizing this show and working towards it, I'm going to have more and more things that I know I want to complete in a certain amount of time. But, but I really also feel like I need, because I haven't had in years, this sort of unlimited amount of time and spaciousness to just create stuff. Yeah. Your body just changed when you were saying that. I just, I'm like, you know, I have three different big trips planned to three different foreign countries, none for more than like 10 days.

So I'm not gonna be gone very much. And I have a few speaking engagements planned. So I'll have to work on a couple of talks. But really other than that, I don't have a whole lot of on the calendar. And my goal, actually, my goal is to keep it that way versus filling it up. Because a lot of times when you have spaciousness,

even if it's purposeful spaciousness, like a sabbatical, you say, oh, well, sure, I'll do that, or I can fit that thing in. And then it all becomes a job again. And I have, that's, you know, I've been working at this job for so long and I, I need to, I feel like I need to shake things up a little bit because I'm not even sure at this point what I, if I want to continue doing the level of client work that I've done, or, you know, if I want to continue making a book a year for the rest of my life, like I have been, you know, I really just want to see how does this feel and what other things am I interested in and what other things emerge and who knows at the end of this year where year where I'll sort of decide to go next. Yeah. I feel like it's so hard to make those decisions when your head's down all day,

every day doing the work, because you need the perspective of stepping out of it in order to actually breathe for a minute and rationally look back down in and really take a look and say, use the metal lens. How's this working for me? When you're in it, it's almost impossible to have that perspective to make those decisions. Yeah, 100%. And I think that's one thing I've, I absolutely, I say this with the most genuine sense of gratitude. I love what I do. I have, I'm exhausted. I have been on a book tour for 74 days. I mean, back and forth to home periodically, but I absolutely love every bit of what I do. And I am so grateful for every opportunity that I have. But I also know I haven't really had time in the last couple of years to think about what else I could do that might bring me joy or about sort of the rest that's required and how many books I want to read and movies I want to see, like the things that I don't have time to do.

And weekend trips I can take with my friends and my wife. These are things that I don't have time to do. And weekend trips I can take with my friends and my wife. These are things that I've had to sacrifice and I want to create more space to sort of dive back into those parts of my life. And then moving forward, I feel like I'm at this place in my life. I turned 52 in January and I still have certainly many more years ahead of me. I'm healthy and I have energy. But I am turning into this part of my life where I don't actually want to be working as much. I actually want to be relaxing more and enjoying myself.

And I feel like it's important to stop and see what that feels like and get used to it. It's learned. You know, like back in 2016 when I first took a break from working for a period of nine months. I mean, I worked a little bit, but I didn't work as much as I normally did. The hardest part for me was learning how to like read a book again and how to relax again and how to not feel anxious all of the time. And I got a handle on that, but it took a lot of work. And I have no doubt that, you know, on January 1st, when my sabbatical starts,

I'm going to have to relearn a little bit of that again as well. Right. It's like, oh, yeah, let me figure this out. I mean, as you step into that, you also brought up, you know, you become an avid cyclist. Swimming was your jam for a long time before that, right? Yeah, yeah. And I know also another thing that's become part of your life is meditation. Yeah.

I had sort of like two levels of curiosity. Maybe we can play with both of them a little bit. One was what those practices mean to you just as a human being? And the other was maybe a bit more nuanced, which is, do you have a sense that those quote, non-creative daily practices actually are important in your life as a creative human being? Yes. To answer that last question, Absolutely. I joined this women's cycling team about two years ago in Portland. And so I have been writing in the last two years more regularly and consistently than I've ever written in my entire life amidst actually a very busy sort of thriving time in my career. But it is the antidote to whatever stress I experience, you know, that is part of this

career that I'm also very grateful for. It also comes with, you know, some sleeplessness and anxiety because I'm busy and I'm trying to meet deadlines. And riding with my team and, you know, I'm a distance cyclist, so I'm going anywhere from 25 to 60 miles at a given time, mostly on Saturdays, sometimes during the week. And it is this, in some ways, it's its own form of meditation, right? Because when you are on a bicycle, it's actually kind of a dangerous sport, even if you're on flat land or not around a lot of other cars, because you have to pay attention at every moment to the present moment. Occasionally,

you get lost in thought, but for the most part, you could crash if you take your eyes off of the road and you're not paying attention. And there is this way that when you're riding your bike and you're clipped in, you have to really pay attention to the here and now. And I sort of simultaneously will have conversations about life with my teammates as we're riding. And it gets me out of the work head and the art head. And a lot of people on my team, they know I'm a well-known artist, but they don't really care. I'm just Lisa to them, right? And that is so wonderful. And it's also my wife rides on the team as well. So it's this way that we can sort of be together in our community. And that's been really wonderful. My meditation practice has been

inconsistent in the last six months because I've been traveling so much. But what that does for me similarly is sort of like grounds me, you know, when I get up in the morning. And for me, part of meditation is not just sitting quietly in my, you know, and focusing on my breath, but also, you know, reading things that are helpful and inspiring to me. You know, I find a lot of like, I read a lot of like poetry, spiritual poetry and do some writing and even some drawing. And I have a, you know, kind of set up in this room that's off of my bedroom that is extremely peaceful to me. And that practice, when I can do it regularly, sets the tone for my day and is so grounding to me and has been enormously life-changing. And in fact, one of the things that I look forward to most about next year

is actually because I won't be traveling so much that I can actually get into this practice and have time for it and not rush out of it because I have a nine o'clock client call or whatever. So I'm pretty excited about that. Yeah. I mean, I think movement as a form of meditation and state of meditation and work in this really interesting complimentary way. But in a past life, I spent a lot of years road cycling also, which you may not know about me. I didn't know that. That's awesome. Yeah. And I completely agree.

People, I think, very often will think of it as, well, you're just out kind of enjoying the day. And it's like, no, especially if you're riding in a group or a pack and you're going at a good clip and oftentimes you're wheel to wheel. That's right. If you lose focus for a heartbeat or like there's a little divot in the road or something like that or you clip somebody's wheel. I mean, you can not only take yourself down, but like everyone behind you, which doesn't cultivate good feelings in the group, speaking from personal experience, of course. And then I eventually sort of like ended up spending a lot more time mountain biking where I would like to ride really fast in a single track in the trees. And again, that was for years, my form of meditation, because the environment and the pace that I chose demanded that you had to be hyper-present the entire time or else you would physically injure

yourself. And then seated meditation, which I've been doing for a lot of years now too, just it added something different, which I never really understood until I was brought to that practice, not willfully. And I also have found that it's not just good for me on an individual level, that it opens up. I feel like it's changed my ability to not just create the space for new ideas to come to me as a creative human being, as a maker,

but also step back from the abyss of anxiety and fear when I'm a little bit freaked out about what I might be entertaining. You know, it's interesting that in 2016, when I was going through this, you know, we were on stage together and I was describing the level of intention and an enormous amount of presence with myself and my choices and the level of anxiety that I have had because of my meditation practice and because of my level of sort of presence and intention with my life.

The pace of things is not affecting me in the same way. And also I scheduled this long break ahead of myself, which also feels really important. And I take that as like this, like I can very much appreciate like how far I've come just in the last, you know, three years between that last conversation we had and now, because at the time I was learning so much about like how to manage this new world that I had entered. And I, as a result, I started working with coaches and meditation teachers and reading books and focusing really intentionally on how to have this, allow this opportunity for my career to really thrive, happen, but also to have, to take care of myself and my relationships and these other parts of myself. And I don't do it

perfectly all of the time, but I am in such a better place than I was because of all of that work. And that work will never end because it is sort of like you have to constantly do it and pay attention and make shifts and allow things, you know, in order to move forward. So that is a very satisfying thing to me that not only has, you know, one of the things I'm proudest of, not only has my career grown and, but, but I've grown, you know, I'm not just sort of like going in, I'm not caught in this hamster wheel where I can't, I'm not, you know, which is really the analogy I used three or four years ago, where I'm not sort of being present with it. I feel like it's happening, but I'm being very present with it. And fortunately, I've had a lot of great teachers that have helped me along the way.

Yeah, no, so agree. I feel like meditation, movement, all those practices are kind of like the psychological shower. You move through life and the process of life as you get dirty. Yeah. And these are the things that sort of like, you know, and if you just stop doing it, then eventually the dirt starts to obscure who you are. You can't even see yourself anymore. And it's sort of like the daily stripping away or weekly or a few times a week, whatever it may be. Mayday, mayday.

We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die.

Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. So as we sit here today, also, you're in, you know, you've alluded to the fact you've been on tour for a couple of months now. With this new book, before you sort of skedaddle for a

year and go deep into your own work. Um, which is all about kind of a fascinating topic that I know we've talked about in little slices over a period of a year. So I know this is not a new exploration for you. It's the whole idea of finding your artistic voice. And, um, and you hit a point where you're like, you know what? There's a bigger conversation that needs to be had. I know you've written about it in the past, you know, like you have, but you turned a page where you're like, there's more to be said.

And I know over the years, this is a question that you get asked over and over and over is this idea from young artists and probably from not so young artists also, like how do I find, because I think that the edict is you've got to find your voice. You're like, you're not legit.

You can't go out there in the world or you can't even make your own art until you figure out what is that thing that is distinct about you. So you took on this project and said, okay, let me write a book because that's what you do. What, let's dive into this a little bit.

First, maybe a definition is probably a good place to start. So when we talk about this thing called your artistic voice, what are we even talking about? sets you apart. It's the, it's the thing that even if you are making work that is, and I wrote this book for visual artists, although the same sort of general principles apply to writers and comedians and actors and anybody who has a creative point of view, but it's the, it's, you know, your voice is that thing that even if you work in a similar genre as other artists or have a very similar style. It's like the thing that makes your work yours. Even, you know, as I said, with even different, you know, makes your work different from other artists, even those artists whose work is similar to yours, right? It's the thing that sets you, makes you, you know, makes you you. And that's important for a few reasons. It's important for folks who have professional aspirations, right? Like it's this thing that feeds, you know, building an audience and allows you to exchange money for your work, which allows you to continue making more work, which allows you to continue to develop your voice, which allows that, you know, that sort of continuous professional cycle. It's also, your voice is your story. I think we often equate voice with style, right? Especially for visual artists or musicians, that it's this

particular way that things look. But really your style is definitely a very important part of your voice, but your voice is really your own point of view. It's your own version of the truth. It's your story, right? And everyone has a story. And a lot of people who don't make narrative work don't necessarily think of their voice as their story, but really your story is everything about you. It's your values and your

life experience. It's the color of your skin and your sexual orientation. It's all these things. It's all these ways that you walk through the world and how you filter everything around you. And that all sort of culminates in what you choose to make work about. Like it's your subject matter. And that is, I think that's surprising to people. And I want to encourage people to focus less on, you know, what is my style to more like, what am I trying to say? What's my, what am I about? And I think that's often missing for a lot of people

and also owning whatever that is and not comparing it to other people that maybe their message is more important than mine. And because a lot of times the stuff that we make work about might seem really banal or simplistic, but it is you're making your, that work for a particular reason. And that's important because it's what makes your work yours. It's, it's your own particular point of view. It's owning your process and the way you approach your work and the materials you use and the subject matter and all of those things. It's interesting, before I decided to make this book, my real

sense of curiosity was like, how did I get from this place where I had no artistic training and I taught myself pretty much almost exclusively along the way. I took a few classes here and there, but how did I get from this place of being a total beginner to somebody who has this very well-formed voice? And I realized that there was something there that I could learn from.

And then I also interviewed a bunch of other artists who had, you know, everybody goes through their own path, right? How did you find your voice and what was important in that process? And I also, you know, dove into some research about creativity and how the brain works. And as it turns out, like practicing and showing up and doing the same thing over and over and over is one of the, and over is one of the main things that leads to one finding one's voice in whatever medium you use. And the other thing is actually openness to experience, like just idea of just sort of being present with what is, being curious and having this sense of wonder about the world actually is extremely important in developing your voice. And I think I understood all of that on some level before I started, you know, researching and writing the book.

But the book sort of like made that all very clear to me. Yeah. I mean, it's so made that all very clear to me. Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting that you mentioned openness to experience and a willingness to sort of like commit to doing this thing over and over and over also, which my brain translates to conscientiousness, which those two are essentially two of the big five personality traits, which really map how we exist in the world, along with levels of neuroticism and stuff like this, which is always an interesting exploration with people with a creative bent as well. You also mentioned the word style, which I feel like that has become to a certain extent sort of like the red herring, because a lot of people are like, well, I've got to develop this distinct external style,

this form of expression that is truly mine and only mine. And then iterate on that. So I have the level of craft to express it in the way that I want to express it. Important part of voice, right? But what I love about what you're saying is that that's the part that can actually, that anyone's capable of developing.

The part that is truly distinct is the expression of your essential self underneath it. And I think that's where we get tripped up because we're like, oh, I don't really know who that is. And that's gonna take a lot more work and I'm not entirely sure. Like, where's the class for that?

Like, where's the, you know, I can go take a hand lettering class, cool. But where's the class which helps me elicit my essential nature and my point of view and my values and beliefs? Right, and I think what trips a lot of people up is this idea that they don't have anything interesting to say, that they're boring. And I like to say like the fact that you think you're boring is actually

just part of your story. So like dive into that, you know, I worked with a storytelling coach last year and just as a way to sort of begin to make my public talks a little bit more personal and more interesting. And what was so interesting is I would go meet with her once a week and she just asked me, it was kind of like therapy in a way, except, you know, not, she wasn't trying to psychoanalyze me at all. It was more just like, tell me more about that. Oh, let's dig into that. And, and we began to craft this story about sort of how I got, you know, my, you know, how I became an artist and what that meant to me. And it was so interesting that I, there were aspects to my story that she thought were so interesting that I would never have thought to share. And so I do think that is important work. I don't think everyone needs to hire a storytelling coach. a visual artist, really digging into who am I and what am I about? And what are all of these, maybe even previously shameful or embarrassing parts of my life that I can use in my work to tell my story? Because that's ultimately what's going to connect people with you and your work is like you being human,

right? And sure, there are a lot of artists out there who like abstract painters, for example, who it's very unclear, right? Like how their story is coming through in their work, but there's still so much there in terms of like how you decide to render anything on the page or how that comes through in your hand is a result of your need to either control things or your need to express anger or chaos. Like even in abstract work, your story is emerging. And I think we don't think about it that way, but it's really true. And like, I think the more we, we understand that and the more we are open to that, the more creative we will, you know, have the ability to be right. Yeah. And, and we can allow the way we

express that to evolve as we evolve as individuals underneath that. Reflecting as you're speaking on years back when we were filming, I had the opportunity to sit down with Milton Glaser, who's this iconic designer, just an astonishing human being. And we circled around to the topic of style. And he is a fierce, he hates the idea that you would label somebody with a style or that anybody who is in the creative world would say, this is my style. And he put a stamp on it and he said, people tried to do that. He's incredibly successful. And people would hire him because they kind of wanted like, they're like, well, we want that style. And he's like, no, you hired me because of the way I think, the way I see the world,

because I have my unique process and point of view. And you need to trust that that will come up with something that's really good. That may look like nothing I've ever done before. And I remember him sharing how that was not always the most comfortable conversation with clients who wanted it to look like X, which had been done, you know, like a whole bunch of times before. And I think, you know, when we lock ourselves into that, it's almost like we're reverse engineering. So like style, we lock ourselves into a style, which then makes us afraid of evolving the human being underneath the style. and then everything becomes stale. That's right. I have a friend right now who I've spent some time with in New York this

week. She lives here and she's an illustrator and she's sort of bored with, you know, she makes a lot of products and she has a very distinct style and she really wants to break out of it. But, you know, her clients and her, you know, they expect things a certain way. And I was really encouraging her and I think she's ready. You know, she really wants to move her work into a new direction. And I said, you have to trust the process. You have to trust that, you know,

because if you are bored making the work that you're making or you're making it for other people, the, you know, you are going to lose interest. It's going to be a miserable experience for you. And I think what's often confusing for people is like, my style is sort of, you know, my voice has always been pretty consistent actually, but my style changes every now and again, depending on the mediums that I'm using. And I am, you know, always, I think for a long time, people were confused by that. Oh, you try so many things, you do so many things, you paint, you draw, you collage, you do this, you do that. And I think people, especially people who want

to work in the professional realm, feel like they should do something. I mean, consistency is important. It's part of your voice, but that's more the DNA part of you that like comes out in your work. This idea that everything you make has to look the same or be in the same color palette or, you know, be in the same style constantly is actually antithetical to creativity, right? Like we want to get to the place where we're really open to trying new things and doing things in a new way and going with these crazy ideas that we have about making new work. And I would encourage people to really focus on that and let that guide your work rather than I must make things in this way because that's what people want to consume. Yeah, I remember going to a show at the Guggenheim,

was it earlier this year or last year, Hillmoth Clint? Oh, amazing show. Mind-blowing. My brain melted out of my head. But we actually started at the top of the show. And for those who haven't been to the Guggenheim, this is giant ice cream cone type of thing where there's one walkway that spirals from the top to the bottom or the bottom to the top.

And all these really abstract, fascinating, amazing, moving things. And then we got down towards the bottom of the spiral. And they had one piece of work from her from her previous career. And it was this stunning, semi-realistic impressionist landscape painting. And to think that it was the same artist, it was almost inconceivable. Beautiful craft. I mean, the level of skill was absolutely, I mean, it was breathtaking in its own way. And then to walk 30 feet up the ramp, actually, and then into, there was a one gallery with these massive,

massive paintings. It was, and it was such a great reminder to me of what's possible when you open yourself up to not locking, like not locking down the way that you express this thing and letting it evolve. I think in most artists' retrospective shows, you will see some example of that, right? Like these early works or the progression of work over years. There's also another great example, not necessarily of progression, but of allowing is Gerhard Richter. So he's this magnificent painter still living. And he paints both hyper-realistically, like giant, almost photorealistic paintings, and completely abstractly with like a squeegee. There's a great documentary about him called Gerhard Richter Painting. And I love that he sort of allows

both of these things to be part of his repertoire and they're not in conflict. They just are two different parts of his brain that work differently and ways that he needs to express himself creatively. And from time to time he focuses on, in his career, he's focused on different aspects. But I just, I love that. He's such a shining example to me of someone who allows there to not be this hole that they have to sort of fit everything into. And one of the questions I get asked most often when I do Q and A's in front of audiences is, I want to do so many different things and I feel like I should have one style. And is it confusing to me if I have a website that has two different sections for the, you know, people are so hung up about fitting into some sort of brand or some sort of like way of sharing their work.

That's not confusing to people. And unfortunately as creative people, we're like, you know, I mean, that's part of like what makes us who we are is the fact that we can't reel it in, right? We want to do it all. We want to make this. We want to make that. And I just say to people, like, if it's not, you know, like, of course, you got to manage it a little bit so it doesn't stress you out. But go do the things. Like, go be that person who makes all the things and explores all of the things. Of course, you want to find the things that

you love the most that also resonate the most with your audience so you can make a living, but I'm not a fan of getting too hung up about branding yourself as this one thing just so you can make a living. I think it's, and it ultimately will make you feel, you know, sort of miserable and stifled in a way. Yeah. I think there's some interesting workarounds also. You know, I know authors who write under pen names where they'll write historical fiction under this, and then they'll write like something completely different, largely because they feel like they need to, for them to be okay as a, as a maker creator and somebody who needs to be expressed and to pursue their interests, they need to do this work. They are concerned because they're professionals and their, their living depends on it, that they'll alienate their existing audience. So rather than testing that water under the same name, they'll create a

separate identity. And for years, nobody would know. They're successful in both domains. They have followers, but, and this isn't true for everybody, but if you also desire to have then your artistic expression be the source of your living, do you feel that there's a tension in developing those simultaneously? Do you like alternate between them? Because if you're trying to develop what feels really true to you at the same time that you're trying to develop work that you think will pay your rent, is that okay? Yes. I always sort of, I feel like I need to, I'm really into Venn diagrams.

I may have mentioned one a few minutes ago, but there's another one, which is for me personally, like for me, the, it's this intersection between doing what I love and what I want to do, but also sort of like finding that, that space where other people, if that overlap, you know, with what other people are appreciating and enjoying. And maybe even a third circle that is something about, I don't know, honoring my own point of view and my own experience and my own approach to things, that there's some kind of sweet spot in the middle there. And I think I encourage everyone to like figure out where their, you know, your Venn diagram might look different, but for the purposes of having a professional career,

I think you have to find the overlap between what brings you joy, what makes you wanna get out of bed in the morning and what brings other people joy and what makes other people want to consume your work or identify with your story or say that is so beautiful. I love that. I'm gonna go buy it from your shop or whatever.

That doesn't mean that that's all you do. Maybe there's some stuff you're doing on the side that's a little weird or different or that isn't necessarily even commercially available and that you're not necessarily restraining yourself, but finding the intersection between what brings you joy and what brings your audience joy feels to me like the place that we have defined as professional creatives. And if you're lucky or you're smart about how you work at that, you'll find it. I actually find the most satisfaction in that work because there's something about making something, being in the

flow of making it, or even if I've not been in the flow, even if it was something that I created out of struggle and consternation, which sometimes also happens. But in the end, even if it was something that I created out of struggle and consternation, which sometimes also happens. But in the end, I'm like, I'm so down with this thing. It's so good. And then putting it out into the world and having other people respond to it is like, and that doesn't always happen either. But when it does, it is like the most intense feeling of kind of connection and I don't know, resonance that I can describe. It's to me, one of the best parts of being an artist is not just the act of creating, which is also really amazing and wonderful personally and internally, but also like how, you know, when I share that stuff and other people respond to it, it's like, it's magical. And that's part

of what motivates me to keep making work. magical. And that's part of what motivates me to keep making work. And I think that's the thing everybody needs to find. And it's going to look different for everybody, but I do think that those things are compatible. And ultimately when you're doing what you love and you are doing it from a place of curiosity and openness and joy, it's going to resonate with people. It just happens. Love that. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle. I'm going to ask you a question I have asked you before, but it's been a lot of years. So as we sit here in this container of a good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?

Wow. I think it's all the things we've been talking about for the last hour for me personally i have really spent a lot of time in the last couple of years trying to move from this place of feeling like i i didn't belong or that i i was kind of came into this world of art and design as an outsider and really just sort of owning my own experience. I'm honoring my own experience as an older woman, as somebody who's self-taught, as actually like my strength and not the thing I need to be ashamed of. So for me, part of living a good life

is really owning and honoring whatever your path is. We spend so much time in shame spirals or in not feeling like we're enough or in not feeling like we'll ever be good enough. And the minute I started changing my own narrative about my life and my potential and my connect, you know, like what was actually connecting me to the people who are consuming my work, I started to relax and feel more joy. And some people might describe it as confidence, but just this sense of equanimity about like my life. And, and I feel like my life is so much better because of that sort of shift that I made. So I would say right now, what makes a good life for me is, is, you know, is just sort of being me and owning my own experience as valuable and important and, you know, being okay taking up space, you know, with that.

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Mayday, mayday, we've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die.

Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk.