Good Life Project - Avanti Kumar-Singh, MD | Ayurveda & Healing

Episode Date: December 21, 2020

I’ve been fascinated with alternative approaches to healing and medicine for my entire adult life. Especially when so many millions of us are walking around with pain and inflammation that doesn’t seem to fair well with a more Western approach. But, at the same time, I’ll also admit, I’m equally skeptical of a lot of solutions, practices, and claims. Which is why I’ve been deeply curious, for many years, about Ayurveda - a healing methodology that has been practiced, refined and sustained for some 5,000 years, and I was so excited to sit down with my friend, Avanti Kumar Singh, a traditionally-trained physician who experienced firsthand the limitations of Western medicine and decided to leave behind a career in emergency medicine to begin a 20-year journey to study, research and experience traditional healing systems from a wide range of cultures that landed her back in Ayurveda and reconnected her with a sense of calling. A central tenet of Ayurveda is the notion that each of us has the innate ability to attain and maintain our own optimal health, and that when done correctly, the practice of Ayurveda is as simple and as natural as being in tune with your body as it moves through the seasons of your life. I love this idea, and I also struggle with it. Which is why I am so excited to share this conversation with you, to unpack some of the key concepts, including ones that, at first, didn’t necessarily land true to me, with someone who is deeply studied and accomplished in both worlds. Avanti is also the author of a wonderful new guidebook, The Health Catalyst: How To Harness the Power of Ayurveda To Self-Heal and Achieve Optimal Wellness.(https://tinyurl.com/ycadj3dz)You can find Avanti Kumar-Singh, MD at:Website : https://www.avantikumarsingh.com/Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/avantikumarsingh/-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey, my guest today is Avandhi Kumar Singh. I have been fascinated with alternative approaches to healing and medicine pretty much my entire adult life, especially when so many millions of us are walking around with pain and inflammation and unease that doesn't seem to fare all that well with a more Western approach. But at the same time, I also admit I'm equally skeptical of a lot of solutions and practices and claims, which is why I have been deeply curious for many years about Ayurveda. And it's sort of a healing methodology or practice or a system that has been practiced, refined, and sustained for some 5,000 years. And I was really excited to sit down with my friend Avanti, a traditionally

trained physician who experienced firsthand the limitations of Western medicine, both in her own life and in her patients' lives, and then decided to leave behind a career in emergency medicine to begin a 20-year journey to study, research, and experience traditional healing systems from a wide range of cultures that landed her back in Ayurveda and reconnected her with a sense of calling. So a central tenet of Ayurveda is the notion that each of us has this innate ability to attain and maintain our own optimal health. And that when done correctly, the practice of Ayurveda is as simple and natural as being in tune with your body as it moves through the seasons of your life. I love this idea. And I also struggle with it, which is why I'm so excited to share this conversation with you,

to unpack some of the key concepts, including ones that at first didn't necessarily land as true to me with someone who is deeply studied and accomplished in both worlds. Avanti is also the author of a wonderful new guidebook, The Health Catalyst, How to Harness the Power of Ayurveda to Self-Heal and Achieve Optimal Wellness. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is?

You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. It's really good to be hanging out with you. I've been so fascinated by the field that you have moved to for a long time, probably since the early 2000s when I started to get exposed to the world of yoga and then sort of like the bigger healing traditions in that space. So I want to dive into a lot of Ayurveda and the traditions, just traditional healing versus Western healing with you also. But what's fascinating to me is you started out your career actually in traditional Western medicine. But in reality, it sounds like the doctor was

sort of like the seed was planted for you to be a doctor when you were a little kid. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a common story with a lot of South Asian kids, actually, who are first generation. It may not even be South Asian, but that's my experience. You know, when my parents immigrated here from India, their sort of mindset, especially having daughters, you know, they were still a little old school. They've really progressed since they've been here for so many years now. But, you know, they were very old school and thinking about what are the sort of safe, I guess,

fields and careers that women could have. And of course, medicine was at the top of the list. And so I think the seeds were always planted. Plus my personality and what I was interested in, that definitely was part of it. So I think the combination of those two, and then all of the examples that I had around me, my aunties, which we joke in our culture that aunties are your mothers who aren't actually your mothers, but act like your mothers. The ones who worked were all physicians because they all came here at that time when the US opened their doors to scientists and physicians and engineers. And so they came here to do their higher training, sort of their residencies

and postgraduate training. And so that was really the example that I had when I was growing up. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting you use the word safe. Your parents viewed it as one of the few, quote, safe options. I'm curious what you mean by safe or what you think they thought by safe. I would say for them, it meant being financially secure because they came to this country looking for a better life, right? And also, you know, safe was probably a field that they knew would always provide opportunities, right? So medicine was one of those things that in India, it was such a highly regarded field. You know, physicians were always sort of put on a pedestal, but also always had work to do, always had a job, always had a source of income. So I think safety was both of those things.

And then also probably, quite honestly, it was sort of one of those fields that they thought that you could probably have some work-life balance and have a family if you wanted to. Although, you know, I don't think they really, really thought that through because it is very hard, but that would probably be the definition of the safe is the financial security, the opportunities, coming to a new country, not knowing what would be in store. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's funny. I think, you know, if you ask your average parent on the street what they want for their kids, probably the first word out of their mouth is you want them to be happy. Yeah.

But the deeper down honest answer is before that, you just want them to be safe. And the happiness is sort of like builds around that. It's interesting also because I know your folks came over, Mindy. I guess your dad came first and then went back for what would be, I mean, I think this is, I'd love to talk about this a little bit, right? Because we have this concept of romantic love in the United States and where that leads to and the path of marriage and family and all these different things. And it's a very different tradition in not just India, but a number of countries. Talk me through sort of like the meet cute for your parents. Yeah. I mean, my dad had come here. He was here for about a year or so and then was asked by his parents to come back and meet a girl or meet a few girls that they had sort of picked out for him. And, you know, I tell the story in my book of how, you know, that meeting and my mom's recollection, it's quite funny. But, you know, there's something to it. I mean, my parents have been married now in January, it'll be 52 years. And my in-laws,

who are also Indian, came from India, both physicians, they had been married for 53 years when my father-in-law passed away last year. So, you know, again, I know that it's very foreign to what we think about in the United States and even more foreign for like my children to think about because it's two generations removed, right? But for me, it's sort of, I have a mix of contemporary, you know, my friends who grew up here who have had arranged marriages and some have worked, some haven't. But I think there's something about, there's this very deep sort of perspective of families and that when you get married or when you pick a partner, this is like a family affair.

It's very much about everyone being involved, being connected throughout their lives. It's not like you suddenly partner off and then you don't have anything to do with the rest of your family, the older generation. I think it's really interesting because, as you said, it's very common in Eastern cultures. And I don't know if you've read the book, The Blue Zones, and I'm sure you have all of that research that they've done. And I think that it's part of that whole story, right? Of keeping the elders in your family engaged in your life. And so I think that this is just a natural sort of piece of that, right? And so these decisions that are very big life decisions are made as family units and it's

generations of families, right? So I think there's something there and I think it does tie into health and wellness for sure. Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting, right? Because I think that the average Western mindset looks at the notion of an arranged marriage and they probably see, well, from the outside looking in, I really don't understand the culture. I don't understand this. And it feels like other people are making decisions for me. It's all about limitations and removal of choice and being excluded from the process. I'm just sort of like being pushed into something. Whereas the way you describe it, it's like the exact opposite. It's sort of like you're involved in this, but there's also a greater understanding that this decision affects

not only you, but it affects the family unit and will potentially affect the family unit for generations. So everyone's a part of it. And I wonder if underlying that is this sense of respect and inclusion for the family that tends to still exist in more Eastern, Southeastern cultures that I feel like has kind of gone away to a large extent in the US and in Western cultures, especially multi-generational families. I think there's something to that. I think there's also, I have two young adults as children. I have a 19-year-old and a 22-year-old. I know we have similar ages of kids, but I find myself saying more to them as I've changed my relationship with them from being parent, you know, like taking care of them all the time, really involved to more of like someone who has a lot of wisdom and guidance

for them, right? More of a friend, not a friend, but you know, someone who's more of an advisor, I guess. And what I've found is that I think there's this sort of feeling that, you know, you can learn from the experience of your elders, right? Because they've lived a little longer than you have. I say this a lot to my kids lately, I've noticed, is that, you know, just trust me. I'm not saying you have to take what I say without thinking about it and about, you know, without making some of your own decisions. But please take into account what I'm telling you because it's from my lived experience, right? And so I think there's that piece also there is that relying on those

elders or the generations before you for some of their lived experience and wisdom, right? And I think it actually ties right back into these traditional healing methods, right? Specifically Ayurveda of relying on the wisdom that has come before you and realizing that there's gold there, that you don't always have to start from scratch. You don't always have to do lots of research to prove everything, but there is something about the lived experience that is so important in how we live our lives in every way. So there's a little bit of a connection there, I think. Yeah, no, absolutely. And especially because you're kind of expanding the family's lived experience to thousands of years of millions of entire populations and then saying, what can we learn from this?

You end up, you know, you have that seed planted early in life. Medicine becomes something that you work towards and you become sort of like hyper-focused on like, this is the thing. Knowing you also, you know, like as a friend, I know that you can be really intense and focused and go, when you, when it's a yes for you, you're like all in. So I know that you can be really intense and focus and go when you wouldn't say yes for you, you're like all in. Absolutely. So I would imagine when you're like, all right, I'm going to med school and then I'm going to practice. This was an all consuming pursuit for you. Oh, for sure. And on top of that, I decided that I would get married and have children while I was in medical school, which is a little kooky, but I figured

life doesn't stop for my career. And so I took seven years through medical school, actually. I had both my kids while I was doing it. So yes, am I a determined person when I set my sights on something? Absolutely. So even having little kids and having an extended South Asian family to deal with in-laws and all that kind of stuff. I still somehow just focused on that and never looked back. Yeah. It's interesting to think about it that way. Yeah. And also, so you're seven years in med school, building a family at the same time and just the educational side of medicine and then the early practice, especially residency, internship can literally take over your entire life. And it sounds like, I'm curious what your intention was when you're sort of like, all right, I'm pushing through

seven years of med school. When I get out, this is what I want to be. This is who I want to be. And this is what I want to do. I'll be honest with you. I think that I was pretty young at the time and I was doing all kinds of things at the same time. And I was living up to trying to live up to all these expectations. I can say that very honestly of being the elder daughter of parents who, you know, came here from India and had lots of expectations or dreams anyway, not expectations, dreams for their children. And I think I felt a lot of that pressure. And so honestly, I don't know that I spent a lot of time really thinking deeply about how I really wanted to practice medicine. I think I had those ideas before I went

to medical school, when I was applying to medical school, like when I was in college, I had all these thoughts about how that would look, what that would look like. And then honestly, I think when I got into the middle of it with being in training and also raising a family and all these other responsibilities and roles I had, I think that just kind of faded away. And it was just sort of like survival of just getting through it. And I think that that's why when I finally got to the point where my body was saying, okay, enough, right. And literally it had to stop me in my tracks for me to take the time to rewind a little and say, okay, why am I doing this? What was the purpose of me even pursuing this in the first place?

And that was really sort of my down on my knees moment of thinking, okay, there's got to be more to this than why I'm doing this now. And I have to reconnect with why I went into the field of medicine in the first place. And that really was when everything started to shift for me. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not.

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We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die.

Don't shoot him! We need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple

Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. So walk me through what actually happened because you're out in the field, you're practicing like you just described. It's kind of more survival mode than thrive. What exactly happens that as you just described, brings you to your knees and kind of turns the light on and says, huh, maybe this isn't the way that I need to be doing this? You know, so I think it was more than just one thing. It was a multitude, right? It was more than just the pain or the discomfort I was feeling in my physical body, right?

You know, plantar fasciitis, weight gain, back pain, throwing out my back, all of those things, those were all signals and signs, warning signs for me, right? That I think the biggest thing was, is that I felt so disconnected from all of the people in my life, whether it was my children, my family, my husband, my parents, or more importantly, my patients. I just felt like I was not connecting in any way with other human beings. And that was really, I think, what stopped me in my tracks. And then when I started to think about it, I felt, I was like, oh my gosh, you're not only disconnected with everyone else outside of you, you're disconnected with yourself, right? You don't even know what is important to you anymore because you're on this like hamster wheel of just doing what you need to do to get through another day. And that was really, I think, what changed

everything is that when, and I think because I'm such a feeling person, a very intuitive person, I connect with people. I'm sort of that quiet person, but I'm very observant, always watching what's going on and connecting even energetically with people. I had lost that completely. And that was what I think was quite literally killing me. More than the pain I was feeling in my body, it was that disconnection that was just too much. It was too much for me. Yeah. I mean, so where do you go from there? Because there are a lot of traditions or a lot of professions or a lot of careers where people pretty readily bounce from one to the next to the next to the next. I think it's becoming super common. I think that the stats I've seen volume of time, years of your life, intensity, investment, people look at that as such a vast sunk cost in getting them to this place where

they are and they're in a profession where there's prestige and there's a clear opportunity and perpetual need that medicine, it feels to me like one of those professions that people rarely leave. I think it's happening more now, but traditionally it was one of those things where you just kind of like you started and you did it until you retired. So when you reach this point, and it's still really early in your career, but you're still years into your training, what happens in your mind that kind of says like, okay, so if this isn't right for me, how do I figure out what is? It's a really good question. I think it really came down to me thinking deeply about why my parents came to this country in the first place.

Why did they leave everything that they knew to come to a land that they had no idea what it would be like and came with nothing? I think I really started thinking about my parents, my grandparents, specifically my grandfather. And I started thinking about, you know, if I don't change something, then what's the point of this anyway? I really had an existential crisis to tell you the truth, right? And so I was in that place of saying, okay, yes, you've spent all this time, all this money, you know, I was writing loan checks until I was 45 years old, right? Which was only five years ago, I'm turning 50 next year. So, you know, why did I do all of that? But I think I also had this deep understanding that if I continued the

way I was going, then I don't know how long I'd actually be practicing. And, and would it matter anyway that I spent all this money if I couldn't practice too long because I just, you know, was exhausted or something happened to me with my health or my mental health or whatever. I think I really took that really seriously. And then I think I really started thinking about what was I put on this earth to do? I was put on this earth to be of service to people. And the field that I had chosen was medicine and the health

professions. Now, I think I just had to sit down and really think about how can I expand that definition of what medicine is. And so that's when sort of my grandfather started coming to me quite literally in my dreams. And he just kept saying to me, you know more, you know more, there's more to this. And so I think that he's probably the reason that I actually kept going in the field of medicine in this health profession of some kind, rather than completely, like you said, going to some other field as the way I would be of service. I think that that was why I had that knowledge and had that lived experience from a child, from the way I was raised, from the way I grew up,

that I could go back to. And that's what I did. Yeah. I mean, so when you talk about that lived experience as a child, a lot of it was, we talked about one of the traditions, which is the rain matters, but there's also this whole broader set of traditions, this whole set of traditional healing practices and meditation and Ayurveda, which it sounds like it was just, these practices and traditions were just such a part of your family and the cultural existence. You didn't key in immediately and say, oh, this is a whole thing that I could do. It was just kind of there. And this was, it sounds like what you're describing is a reawakening to the fact that, oh no, maybe actually there's something bigger here for me. Yeah. You know, I think that's really quite literally what happened is I realized that I had lost my health in

my everyday life, right? While I was pursuing my career, my chosen career path of Western medicine, I didn't lose my health one day and just wake up and suddenly it was gone. You know, I had this realization that it was over time. It was day in, day out of doing the same things that were not supporting my health. And I think that's when I started to listen, to think about, well, this wasn't a problem for the first 20 something years of my life. You know, what changed? And it was so obvious when I said it that way to myself, I was like, well, of course you grew up differently. And then I really started thinking

about the way I live, like you said. And it really quite literally was, it was not a big deal. You know, it wasn't like my mom was when she would cook us meals thinking about, oh, I have to add turmeric or haldi, as we say in Hindi, you know, into the food. That was just the way we did things, right? It wasn't, oh, I have to boost our immunity using haldi, right? And I started thinking about thing after thing, after thing, after thing, you know, everything from the moment that we would wake up in the morning till the evening when we'd go to sleep, there were these little things that were just built into the way we lived that were supporting our health. And then I started thinking about, you know, different times of the year and things that were just built into the way we lived that were self we're supporting our health. And then I started thinking about, you know, different times of the year and things that would happen.

You know, when we went to India or my grandfather came to visit and it all started to just come together for me, this understanding that there is all this wisdom in living in a certain way that promotes and supports your health. So it was like the light bulbs went off for me, quite literally. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like there are two light bulbs and tell me if this is right. It sounds like the first light bulb is, oh, this might help me if I return to this. But then it sounds like the second light bulb is, what if this is actually a path forward for me professionally, where I can stay in this being of service, I can stay in this medicine slash healing space, but just do it in a very different way.

That's exactly what happened. And I'm convinced to this day, and I think about my grandfather every morning when I wake up and meditate is that that's quite literally what he was trying to tell me. Go back to your roots. Think about it for yourself because I was at that point where I was just not doing well physically, emotionally, spiritually. And then he kept nudging me. There's more, there's more, there's more. And so I think that that's really where I was like, oh, this is like, right. It's been in front of me the whole time, you know, right in front of my nose. And I didn't even realize it. And yeah, could this help other people? And quite literally what I started doing was I started applying it to my family and my friends and, you know, my children specifically.

And I started talking to my mom and she didn't always know the answers of why she was doing what, because she wasn't taught it that way. So I started looking things up. I started researching it and reading. And yeah, at some point I was having a conversation with my husband and he said, you do realize that this is like what you're supposed to be doing. And I said, yeah, I think I've known that for a while, but I will be honest with you. It goes back to something you mentioned earlier is that it was really hard to make that decision. I remember when I first started down this path like 15 years ago, I was so worried about people thinking I was completely crazy to leave the field of medicine that I had worked so hard to get accepted to medical school and get through the training and the time and the money I had spent on it and then

to walk away. Yeah, that was in my head. I was like, am I nuts? And I thought, yeah, I am. But if I stay here, I'm going to go nuts. I'm just not going to be able to survive it. So I figured, all right, I'm going to try. I may as well. So I figured, all right, I'm going to try. traditional approaches. 15 years ago, that door was maybe just cracking open, but it was generally,

you know, practitioners were viewed with a really suspect eye. And then people who were exploring that world from a sort of a patient slash client standpoint were kind of looked at as a little bit of a weirdo also. So you saying no to medicine then was also a very different proposition than if you had sort of like made the same decision now. Oh, definitely for sure. You know, and I, it there it's, it's like night and day comparatively, you know, from what it, where, where I was 15 years ago and the way I was received versus what I'm, what is today and how I'm received now, completely different. The fact that there are so many people who even know or have heard of Ayurveda blows my mind. It also blows my mind that a lot of people

haven't heard of it, but the fact that so many people know a little bit about it is quite amazing to me. Yeah. So this sets in motion a whole new journey for you. And a big part of that, especially in the early days, and I imagine it continues, is education. Because you can draw on the traditions of your family and your mom and your own experimentation. But just like when you devote yourself to med school, when you are standing in the role of being this person in the context of helping others very often when they're in crisis, you know, you got to know what you're talking about. So it sounds like that sets in motion for you also a years long, if not decades long at this point, process of almost re-education or it's where maybe not re-education, but almost sort of like learning new things and reclaiming old things. Yeah. And it's quite literally been an integration for me, right. Of thinking about, okay, how am I going to explain this to people in the Western world, in the United States, specifically, that's where we are, right. In a way that is accessible and approachable.

And so that they don't miss out on the power and beauty of Ayurveda, right? Because if it's too technical, if there's too many Sanskrit words, it can be very intimidating for people, right? And so I think what I've really spent a lot of time on is thinking about how does this wisdom that's 5,000 years old based on lived experience, right? How does that match up with what we know in medicine, in Western medicine, what we've proven scientifically? So how can I start to bridge those and explain the concepts, the whys of what we do in Ayurveda to what actually is happening in the human body without getting too technical. And I do think that that's probably one of the gifts that I have is being able to do that.

I think that that's why people are drawn to the way I teach because of that reason. I'm always very careful and I always say, this is nothing that I've come up with. This is 5,000 years of ancient wisdom. All I've done is I've found a way to explain it to people in a way that's approachable. And so it's been a really interesting journey doing that. I think it's been challenging at times because there have always been those voices in my head of saying, I don't ever want to misrepresent what Ayurveda is or simplify it so much that you can't see that it's what it is, where it came from. So I'm really careful because I want to make sure I honor that. And it's part of my culture. It's where I came from. But at the same time, I also want to make it more approachable for people so that they can

really use it and harness that power. So it's been challenging and so rewarding to do it. Yeah, it's interesting. We've had conversations reading your recent book, The Health Catalyst. What popped into my mind immediately as I was reading through it was exactly that. I think it was about halfway through. And my mind just immediately said, oh, she's the Ayurveda whisperer for people like me, for people who have come out of a place. Because what you were doing was... And I have some background in Eastern traditions and Eastern

healing and Sanskrit and the ideas. But it was really, it's fascinating to sort of like see the translating of these things in a way where it's like, I could see the wheels turning, kind of thinking, how do I explain this in a way where everyone is okay with it and gets it? But also it's such an interesting tension, but at the same time, honor this very real 5,000-year-old tradition and acknowledge that it is based in this. I can use English instead of all different languages, but fundamentally, this is where it comes from. We've used this word irate a bunch of different times. Now, let's dive into it a bit. And I think probably really the opening question is, what are we talking about when we're talking about Ayurveda?

We're talking about a healing tradition that is based on this idea that when you live in harmony with nature, with everything that exists in the universe, you will have optimal health and a vibrant life. That's really what it comes down to, is that if you can start to do that, if you can become aware of what the cycles are of nature, both on a daily basis and a seasonal basis, and then on top of that, I mean, we can talk about astrology on top of that, then there's a life stage basis and then an astrological, but let's start with just daily and seasonal. If you can really become aware of that, then there's a life stage basis and then an astrological, but let's start with just daily and seasonal. If you can really become aware of that and realize that you are

absolutely connected to everything in the universe, and when you live in harmony with the universe, you'll have optimal health. That is really that simple. And I was spending some time reflecting on this past year with this pandemic. And I think if there has ever been a time where this has been so clearly laid out for us to see is how interconnected we are to everything and everyone on this planet, right? It's been just mind-blowing that the example we've had of that happened in the past nine months, right? And so it's Ayurveda right there. Yeah. There has never been a bigger message around that. But again, there's the data, there's the experience, and then there's awareness and acceptance. And I feel like that's where so many of us stumble. I think when we hear, yes, fundamentally, it's about us really living in harmony with the world around us and nature and other beings, well, that makes sense.

We kind of nod, right? And we probably know intuitively that in those few moments where we've structured our lives, where we have the opportunity to do that, we feel better. And yet on a day-to-day basis, I think so many of us walk around and say, but I can't. I can't do that. I live in a big city. I work in a job. This year, I'm sitting in front of a screen for eight, 10 hours a day. And this is the way I'm relating to people and my body is not moving at all. And I'm freaked out about contact with anybody else. I don't want to. So it's interesting to me. We can look at this year and it just becomes glaringly apparent how disharmonic we are with the environment around us. But I'm getting at is that it's trying to help people become aware that yes, on a macro level, right? This pandemic has shown us that. But then if we can just take

it back to ourselves on a micro level and look at ourselves in our lives and how are we connecting to the other people in our lives? How are we connecting to our space? How are we connecting to the other people in our lives? How are we connecting to our space? How are we connecting to nature? You know, what are our rhythms on a daily basis? Just becoming aware that in our own little worlds, right? You know, because that's quite literally how we are living this year, especially. How can we sync up with everything in the universe? It doesn't have to be this huge, you know, massive way of doing that. I think that that's one of the things that frustrates me in Western medicine or in Western

culture is that like, it's always like, you know, lightning bolts have to come down from the heavens, you know, that like it has to be this huge, big change that you make and suddenly everything will be okay or better. You know, a little of something is good. If that's good, then let's do a lot of it and it'll be even better. And that's just not the way it works. So I really focus in on how can you make these small changes? How can you become aware and just start doing one small thing?

Because it really does have a profound effect on your health, your mental, emotional, spiritual, physical wellbeing by doing small things and becoming aware. So I think that awareness of just first realizing that you are connected to everything and then bringing it back to what can I do to enhance that connection. Yeah. I love that. And it takes a lot of the scariness out of it too. It makes it more doable. As you're sharing that, my mind was sort of going to, as the world has defaulted from in-person conversations to... What was fascinating to me is that the immediate replacement for it was video. And increasingly these days, I'm saying no to everyone's like, let's jump on a video call. Let's do a video meeting. Let's do a video conference.

And my first response is if there is something that absolutely requires visual reference, okay, let's do it. If not, I'm putting on my headphones and I'm going outside for a walk and you're coming with me because I want to be outside where the breeze is blowing, where I'm surrounded by nature, where I can move my body and just feel better. The response has been interesting because some people are a little bit triggered by it because they're like, but this is the way we do things now. And then other people are kind of like, thank you, because I would love to do that. But it's just so rapidly has not become the norm. So it's interesting. And that's a tiny tweak. But I found it makes such a huge difference in my experience. I'm sure it shifts your entire day when you are doing your quote meetings while you're walking in nature, you know, I'm sure it completely shifts your energy. And, you know,

I mean, there's all the scientific reasons that that's helping you, you know, is beneficial to you. And also the, the sort of the energetic reasons it's helping you, right? The prana that's flowing through your body when you're walking and you have access to the air and the sun and the earth, the wind, right? That's all sources of prana. And so of course it's going to make you feel better. So I think, yeah, so that's a great example. I love that you shared that because I think that's just one small thing that you changed, but it is probably over time

having profound benefits to you and profound effects on your health and your mental wellbeing too. Yeah. And I've done this for years, but what I felt is the need to do it now has been magnified dramatically because I almost feel like the way that we've been forced to move through each day and work and relate is kind of, on the one hand, it's great that we've been able to make that transition and sustain, but it's also, there's a toxicity to it that I've felt. Which maybe is another interesting conversation, right? Because there's the word toxic or toxic load has kind of like become a big thing in Western medicine, but also I think in Ayurveda. But I think when we think about toxic load, the toxic load that we're taking on in Western medicine, our mind just goes to chemicals. What's the exposure? But toxic load in the context of Ayurveda has a much broader context. Yeah, it does. I mean, it's really about, again, becoming aware of everything that is coming into your life and into you, right, through your five senses. And so, you know, in Ayurveda,

we talk about the fact that everything in your life affects you, affects your health. It either supports your health or it weakens your health. It either supports your health or it weakens your health. And so, you know, we're talking about our relationships. We're talking about our career and our work, our passions. We're talking about our environment, our physical environment and space and the diet, right? That's one aspect of it too. But I think we get so focused, like you said, on the chemicals that we forget that so many of these other things are so important. I can't tell you how many, pretty much every lecture workshop that I do, I will have people coming up to me saying after the talk, Dr. Kumar saying,

I have changed this, this, and this in my diet, and I still don't feel well. And it proves exactly the point we're talking about, because all they've thought about is their diet. They haven't considered the fact that the toxins that are coming into them, into their being, is actually coming from their relationships or from their space or from their work. And that if they start to become aware of that and make some small changes there, it will profoundly shift how they feel, right? So the toxins aren't actually coming from the food. The toxins are coming from something else.

And so I think that's the awareness of when you're connected to nature and you're connected to what's going on outside of you, and you can then bring that inside of you and think about, okay, how is this affecting me? What signs and symptoms are showing up to tell me that something is not connecting correctly? What are the changes I can start to make? So it's sort of that making that connection to what's outside of you to what's inside of you. Yeah.

And it's beyond the piece of broccoli you put in your mouth and the pill that you get offered to take, which I feel like we are as much on the hook as any providers because we're looking for that fix. We're looking for the granular answer, like, tell me the diet, tell me the pill. And like you said, I think one of the reasons why Ayurveda and so many other more traditional approaches or complementary and integrative approaches are flourishing so much in this day and age is because for a lot of the chronic lingering angst and pain and suffering disease that we're feeling right now. Those things aren't doing what we want them to do anymore if they ever did beyond sort of like placebo. Not to say, I think both of us acknowledge fully, there was a very real role in place for Western medicine,

100%. Absolutely, 100%. And yet all of these other things that millions and millions of people experience every day that it seems to be really bad to treat. It's like, what's the downside to opening up to the notion that there may be other things going on that affect you in a very real medical, physiological, optimal health way? Right. Right. Exactly. I think it's something that really struck me as I started practicing Ayurveda for myself again and reading and researching. And what I came to is this idea of changing your relationship to the symptoms, not just becoming aware of like, oh, where are they coming from?

Oh, it's my health. It's my relationships. It's my career. That's important too, right? To figure out where are the toxins coming from. But then, you know, the truth of the matter is, is that there are going to be some of us who are going to have headaches all the time because that's how an imbalance shows up.

But when you can change your relationship to the headache per se, right? And look at it as it's here to tell me something, you can change how you view that headache, right? It becomes a gift almost. I know that's going to be controversial to say that, but it does become a gift because it's an indication. Change something. Take a look at what's going on in your life. What are you eating?

You know, how are your relationships going? Are you getting outside? Are you breathing prana? Are you getting fresh prana? How's your career going? What's getting outside? Are you breathing prana? Are you getting fresh prana? How's your career going? What's going on in your work? It's like an indicator. It's a signal to stop and go inside and think about what's happening.

Become aware. And so then the headaches will dissipate and then they'll come back again. But I think that you can really change the relationship that you have with these symptoms. It changes everything. You know, rather than being in this place in Western medicine that so many of us get caught up in of like trying to eliminate the symptom, right? Just like, let's get rid of it. You know, let's cure everything.

I don't know that that's the point. You know, I know that that's the goal in Western medicine. It may even be the goal for some practitioners of these other traditional healing methods. But for me, I think I've let go of that being the goal. I think what I've sort of more focused on is how do I help people reclaim the healing power that they have within them, the awareness, that sort of ability to take control again and say, I'm going to change how I'm looking at things. And hopefully it adds to like a more vibrant life and how they're living. So they're not sort of chained by the headaches or the GI pain. you know, those are still going to be there and

uncomfortable. But if they change how they look at them, maybe it changes how they live their lives, right? Because I think, you know, with chronic conditions, if you become so attached to the symptoms and that's all you can see, how can anything change for you? Right? I don't know if you can ever get out of that cycle of feeling so bad and feeling so sad. And not to say again, that that pain isn't real. It's very real, but how can you change how you look at it so that you can still live as vibrantly as you can? Yeah. I mean, it's a pretty major change in lens and context and mindset that I have to imagine is not an easy one for people to welcome because you show up and you're like, I have headaches every day. Give me something to

stop that. And then if you turn around and say well i i get it i acknowledge it there's really there's real pain here you know let's talk about what the pain is telling you yeah i have to imagine people will be like yeah that sounds nice but i'm in pain now and i just want it to stop so yeah there's a lot a lot of tension there in sort of like what you want in the moment and somebody suffering in the moment versus a willingness to zoom the lens out and say, well, maybe if we look at this from a bigger picture, what is this telling us? And if we make changes based on what it's telling us, maybe we can actually get rid of this. Right. And so I think, right. And I agree a hundred percent with you. So I think that that's

why I really do emphasize the fact that this is integrative. I really do believe that both have so much merit and so much, you need both, right? So you need the medication to help you decrease your suffering in the moment, but how are we going to decrease the suffering on an ongoing basis? Right. Because to say that the only way you can control your pain, your headaches is with medication. That's, I think, where people lose hope. Right. That's where they feel like it's the control is outside of them, right? But if you can equip people with this understanding that they're, let's zoom out and let's look at what is the pain trying to tell you? Can you correlate it with anything? Maybe the pain won't be as severe. You still might need the medication, but maybe it's not going to be debilitating. You know, I always say that the measure of something working is not whether or not it takes it away, but can it decrease the amount of time that you're in that suffering?

Right? So you might still get the headache, but can you bounce back in a day rather than five days? Right? Can you decrease the length of the suffering? It could be, right? Rather than just always focusing on trying to get rid of everything. And again, that may be controversial to think about and to say, but I feel like that's the truth. And I feel like that's where we're sort of missing the boat in Western medicine, presenting it that this is the way things are done and, you know, take it or leave it sort of thing, rather than coming and saying, let's look at all of the different modalities that we have that can help you heal and help you feel better. Yeah. It's such an interesting frame.

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You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. I'm curious whether if the headache or the GI discomfort, whatever it may be, is largely just a signal that something's

off in some way or multiple ways that if the focus is, let's take a pill to stop the headache, which like you said, sometimes that's what you need to do just as an intervention. If the underlying disharmony is never addressed, well, maybe now you've got the pill for the headache, but your body is still going to find a way for the disharmony to manifest in a symptom. So now you have the GI, right? So now you go, well, what do I do for the GI? Well, now I take something for my GI. Okay. So now I've got the headaches kind of licked. Now I've got the GI settled down. I'm on two different medications for life. The disharmony is still there. Your body's going to keep finding now I'm going to have pain here or here. So do you see this pattern happening with people?

Absolutely. It's what happened to me. That was my lived experience. And it was also the frustration I was having because I felt like my patients kept coming back with the same symptoms or then additional symptoms, right? We got that one taken care of and now here's another one, right? And so again, it's not to minimize the pain or the suffering that people are having from these symptoms, but it is sort of, let's take a step back and look at what's really going on. and can we address some of the root causes, right, of what's happening. And if we do that, again, maybe the headaches won't go away, but we're going to prevent the GI symptoms from coming or the X, Y, and Z symptoms that would come if you just continue

down that path of not becoming aware of the signal, of the sign that those headaches are giving. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's exactly, of the sign that those headaches are giving. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's exactly, exactly. I see it all the time in patients and students. I see it in myself. Even now, I'm not perfect. There are times when that happens to me, to my children, my family, right? That's part of being human.

But I think the more that you can take a step back and become aware, the better off you're going to be. I mean, and this is going to be controversial. The notion of, and I'm somebody who has had headaches for basically my entire adult life. And I have really been trying to zoom the lens out now and looking at what are the bigger picture things that may be contributing to it. In a way where there's a medication that can make the symptom not present anymore, I feel like I'll talk for myself. I lose motivation to then do the work to actually change the bigger context that might be leading to it. And I find that, you know, if the symptoms keep presenting to me, even on a like more human level, it's kind of like this

constant, I don't want it to happen. And yet it's this constant reminder that you're not there yet. There's still things that are not working. So stay in the process, keep doing the work. I don't want to suffer. I don't want to suffer. I don't want to feel those anymore. But if I take a pill that makes them entirely go away, I'm human and I will just walk away from the work. And it's really, and I like to think I'm somebody who kind of knows better. And yet I do, I default to that exact same thing. It's human nature. It's just, it's human nature. You know, our brains are wired to look for the threat or the problems, right?

That's just the way our brains are wired, quite literally. And we want to go to the problem and try and solve it always. And so that's exactly it. If there's a problem that's showing up, we'll go to that. And when we think about ourselves, really trying to understand what's happening, I know within Ayurveda, there's almost like a, maybe I look at it as a typing system, where there's sort of like these three different types, the doshas, vata, pitta, kapha, derived, I think, from the five elements. And to me, I've always looked at that as just really interesting information that is not dispositive, but it helps me more rapidly just understand

more about myself. Talk to me about sort of like this system. Yeah. So it is this idea that everything in the universe is made of the five elements, space, air, water, fire, and earth. And that when we are born, we have a different proportion of those five elements. Now those five elements combine to make three bioenergies, mind, body constitutions, and they are energetic. And so based on your proportions of the five elements, that means how much you'll have of these three doshas, vata, pitta, or kapha. And based on those proportions, there are some very clear characteristics that are associated with those different mind-body energies. And so there are ways because of that information, you have some insight into

what are the signs and symptoms that are going to be more prevalent within you when you go out of balance? And what are some of the things that you should be doing on a daily basis, on a seasonal basis to help keep that in balance, right? So yes, it's very valuable information. Here's the thing though, and I know this is also controversial because I say this, is that I don't believe that focusing on the doshas when you're new to Ayurveda is the best thing to do because I think it becomes another prescriptive list or quiz, a shortcut to trying to find perfection in how you do things. Like if I can eat exactly what that list says, then I'm going to be okay. Right. And I think it takes away

the process of awareness, right. Of really thinking about what's really going on for me. And then thinking about how can I shift things? So that's why I'm not a big proponent of talking about doshas when you first start Ayurveda. They're very, very important, as you said. I mean, it's the basis of Ayurveda, but it can also lead people in the wrong direction and they get so focused on that that they're not... Then they get frustrated actually if they start to live according to these prescribed lists and they're not feeling better. It's because they're not actually becoming aware of what's really going on and what the imbalances are telling them. Yeah.

It's our Western mindset, right? Give me the diet, give me the prescription. You know, it's sort of the, it's the Ayurvedic, it's the Westernization of that approach and saying, well, okay, so this is the most simplified distilled thing that I can do. It's the clearest, I'm going to put myself in this box and then do that thing. Whereas it's a tool or a set of tools, but the bigger picture is still like you are one human being, complex in many ways, existing in an ecosystem. And it's got to be about you, your unique constitution energetic body and relational body in this moment in time and yeah so i i it's funny because almost always

when i've heard conversations about ayurveda it's like okay so the starting point is the doshas and then like we first we do this this analysis and then you know then you learn what to do. So it's interesting to hear you say, not so fast. There's so much more nuance to it than that. Yeah, there is. And I think, again, this is a lifestyle. This is about living a certain way. And so I think my whole approach is that if I can teach you how to think about this, you can take it or leave it and take

what works for you and what doesn't work. But at least I'm teaching you sort of the philosophy behind it. And it's activating that self-awareness within you. Again, activating that knowledge and wisdom you have within you. Because what's interesting is that every time I speak, by the end of me talking, people will say, this just makes sense. I have no idea why, but it just makes sense, right? Because they're not focused on the doshas and focused on a list and all that, which is more sort of cerebral of like, oh, I have to figure out how to follow that.

Now, how am I going to make sure I can cook this, this, and this today so that I make sure I stay in my list and all that other stuff? Instead, when you understand that this is based on lived experience and human experience, you have that intelligence and that knowledge within you. So you're reconnecting to that and it's like, oh, I just get it. It just makes sense. And that I think is so incredibly powerful. And I think that's what the power is of Ayurveda specifically, is that people can connect to

it so instantly once they understand how to think about it. And that's really sort of my aim. Yeah. It's almost like this is actually inside of you. Yes, there's a technology and there are a lot of systems and a lot of things that have been developed over thousands of years that we know to help guide you know the the practice and the application but awareness and intuition are equally valid if not more in the process and the big part of the problem is we've become completely disconnected to those things,

disembodied and unaware. And so we don't know. It's almost like if you really slow down and just breathe into it and feel into it, and you think, is this the thing that's making me feel good or bad or filling me up or emptying me out? I think a lot of us know we just don't really ever go there anymore. Right. Because we're so worried about what the research says or what the latest finding is or latest

study is or whatever it is. And that's all important information, but it has to be integrated into what we also know, right? A simple example, and this just shows the point really simply, is that I always will say to people, I live in Chicago in a cold climate, right? Where we're cold most of the year. And I'll say to people, do you feel like eating salads in the winter? And the answer is always, no, of course not.

Well, then why are you doing it? Well, because of the, and they'll rattle off all the data and all the reasons. And then I'll say, well, let's just take a step back. How does it make you feel? I don't really like it. So why are you doing it? There's something inside of you telling you, now that doesn't mean don't eat vegetables. You may have one of those people that doesn't like vegetables. I get it. But in general, we have this wisdom that in the winter, it's not really helping us to eat raw salads. And there's a reason for that. And when you understand Ayurveda, when you start to think in this way, you're like, oh, that's why.

It's because it's not in season. It's not in harmony with nature. Of course, it's not going to make me feel good. In the summer, absolutely. It makes me feel amazing. That's what I want, right? So it's that simple example. It's really silly, but it really illustrates this point so well, is that if we can just take a step back and balance what we're learning from data and science with what we also know inside of ourselves, that I think is where the magic happens. That's really where it comes together. Yeah. No, I love that. It's, it's not a call to invalidate external data. It's a call to validate internal intuitive data and say, this matters too. And also develop the skills to

reconnect with our ability to sense it. I love how you said that I'm going to have to remember that and write it down. Yeah, that's exactly it. It's exactly it. Yeah. I think moving through the year that so many of us have just moved through and the time of year that we're in now, I think a lot of us are, it's a good moment to step back and reflect and think, okay, so there has been a year of disruption. There will continue to be a substantial amount of disruption for a while. And as we sort of like focus forward on the world, not even the world, right? Just on an individual level as you and I, and everyone listening focuses forward and says, well, how do I want to be in the world moving forward? I feel like this moment has been this really powerful

invitation that sort of says, everything's turned upside down right now. The pieces of the puzzle have all been pulled apart. How do you want to reassemble it? Right. I think it's a very powerful moment to do that because literally our lives have been turned upside down, inside out in every realm, right? In every realm that you can think of. And because we've had to be socially isolated, distanced from other people, it's given us a lot of time to take a step back and get a little quiet, get a little still, and think about how do we want to go forward? Not only for ourselves internally within our own family units, but like, how do we want

to show up in the world, right? How do we want to connect with other people and connect with the environment, connect with other beings? And I think environment, connect with other beings. And I think it's really profound, actually. I agree. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So sitting here in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer out the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? I would say to live a good life is to live with a sense of ease.

It's a term that I really focused in on when I was doing my yoga therapy training, this idea of feeling ease, not easy, not simple, but just feeling the sense of ease of even if it's something challenging, it's creating this sense of expansion within me because I know I'm connecting with something that's inside of me, that this challenge is something that I want to do. So I would say that it's really connecting in with this idea of what feels nourishing and ease? What creates ease within me? Whether it's what I'm eating or how I'm moving or what projects I'm working on or how I'm being creative or how I'm relating to other people. Does it create ease in me? Thank you.

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