Good Life Project - Bishop Michael Curry | Love is the Way

Episode Date: September 24, 2020

The Most Reverend Michael Curry is the first African American individual to serve as Presiding Bishop and Primate of The Episcopal Church, Chief Pastor, President and Chief Executive Officer, and Chair of the Executive Council of The Episcopal Church.Born in Chicago, in the 50s, with a father who was an Episcopal priest, his mom died at a young age and he, along with his sister, was raised by his father and his grandmother. Early in life, he was introduced to social activism through his father’s leadership and his own dedication to righting a broken world. Eventually ordained himself in 1978, Bishop Curry grew increasingly active on issues of social justice, reconciliation, immigration, and marriage equality, often taking positions that were counter to broader tradition, and never shying away from opportunities to invite people to challenge convention in the name of creating a more inclusive community that welcomed all with love and dignity.In May of 2018, Bishop Curry delivered a moving sermon on the redemptive power of love at Prince Harry and Meghan Markle’s royal wedding, then just months after, served as the officiant for the state funerals of Senator John McCain and President George H.W. Bush in the Washington National Cathedral. Bishop Curry has also written 5 books, his newest is Love is the Way: Holding Onto Hope in Troubling Times (https://amzn.to/3h5JPO5), which expands upon his focus on love as the centerpiece for a new way to live and find meaning and peace, even at time where they can seem so hard to access. We explore all of this in today’s conversation.You can find Bishop Michael Curry at:Website : https://episcopalchurch.org/presiding-bishop-michael-curryInstagram : https://www.instagram.com/pb_curry/-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

My guest today is the Most Reverend Michael Curry. He is the first African-American individual to serve as presiding bishop and primate of the Episcopal Church, chief pastor, president and chief executive officer and chair of the Executive Council of the Episcopal Church. He was born in Chicago in the 50s with a dad who was an Episcopal Church. He was born in Chicago in the 50s with a dad who was an Episcopal priest. His mom died at a young age and he, along with his sister, was raised by his dad and his grandmother. And pretty early in life, he was introduced to social activism in part through his dad's leadership and his own exploration of the way the world was and the way that he thought

maybe it could be. Eventually ordained himself in 1978, Bishop Curry grew increasingly active on issues of social justice, reconciliation, immigration, and marriage equality, often taking positions that were a counter to broader tradition and never shying away from opportunities to invite people to really challenge convention in the name of creating a more inclusive community that really welcomed all with love and dignity. And in May 2018, Bishop Curry took millions of people around the world to church, delivering a powerful sermon on the redemptive power of love at Prince Harry and Meghan Markle's royal wedding, then just months after served as the officiant for the state funerals of Senator John McCain and George H.W. Bush in the Washington National Cathedral.

Bishop Curry has also written five books. His newest is Love is the Way, Holding on to Hope in Troubling Times, which expands upon his focus on love as the centerpiece for a new way to live and find meaning and peace, even at times where those things can seem so hard to access. We explore all of this in today's conversation. So excited to share it with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna, raised Jewish, in a very non-practicing way, but with all the traditions. So I had zero exposure to the Episcopal Church, no exposure to you whatsoever, until a few years ago when I, along with, oh, 2 billion or so people around the world tuned in. Actually, I didn't tune in live to watch the Royal Wedding, but then I think it was the next day. I just kind of really quickly just searched and I saw

everybody talking about this sermon from a person named Bishop Curry. So I pulled it up and I watched this sermon, which I recall I think was 12 or 13 minutes. And I was absolutely captivated watching you. And I realized that it was on two levels. One was the words, the ideas that you were sharing. The other was this sort of study in contrast where it was you in this deeply aristocratic, reserved culture and setting, but you being utterly alive and emotional and fierce. And I wondered what that moment was like for you on both those levels in terms of sharing the ideas you were sharing in this context and also experiencing this contrast? I wonder if you felt that as well. Well, you know, I mean, I really did. I mean, you could not be aware on some levels. And on other levels, I was in church, which is a territory I'm relatively familiar with. And well, I have to

admit, there's probably some advantages to being in your mid-60s when you do something like that, because at this stage of life, I really don't have too much to prove, I don't think. I mean, I'm just kind of happy to still be here. That's probably the except. So it probably had, there's some advantage in that, I suspect. But I think the contrast were built into the occasion. And I'm not sure that everybody was aware of it. I think the couple was aware. They were aware. They were aware of what they were doing.

And they were a contrast. He's British. She's American. He's British aristocracy and a white guy. And she's Black, multiracial. They probably share the same politics, I suspect, but I don't really know. They represent two different countries and multiple cultures. As you said, one sort of aristocratic and venerable and old, hers more mixed, very much

like an American in that respect. And they were bringing that together, but not only embodied in the two of them, you had it embodied in the audience. I mean, 2 billion people, that's like most of the people on the planet, you know, who could watch TV. I mean, that was pretty much all of us. And they, you know,

they had that marvelous gospel choir, which people thought I brought them from America. I said, no, they're in London. They're proud of you all. And a marvelous gospel choir there, a cellist, a young, he's probably maybe 21 now. I think he was like 19 years old. And to listen to him command an orchestra, needless to say, this wasn't like a slapdap orchestra. This was like about the best you could get. And this 19-year-old Black British kid commanded. I mean, I said, oh God, now I know what Yo-Yo Ma was like at 19.

You know what I mean? Those kind of, all that stuff was going on. And then you had, I mean, I'm in and out of England a lot because the Episcopal Church is part of the Anglican family, Church of England and all that kind of stuff. So I'm in and out for meetings and that kind of stuff. I've never seen England that excited about anything. I mean, that's just not their way. But people had flags. They were way, I mean, you saw Union Jacks all over the country. It was just, it was really, it was a moment of joy, not just for Britain, but I mean, America. I mean, people were getting up early in the morning, wearing the hats, doing that, having

parties all over. But this was going on over the world. I've been in Africa since then. People were watching there and East Asia. People, I said something different was going on. It was a study in contrast, and it was bigger than what was once an empire. It was bigger than a stratified class structure society. It was bigger than racial differences and variety. It was bigger than religious differences and variety. It was bigger. I mean, it was something big was going on. I could feel it. I kind of knew it ahead of time.

But being there, I was very much aware and then afterwards very much aware. That I really do believe, you know, in the movie Color Purple based on Alice Walker's book, there's a scene where there are folk in the bar and they're partying all night. And then in the morning, the folk in the church are partying. Well, the folk in the bar are still singing their bar song and the folk in the church are singing a gospel song. And after a while, the folk in the church, they really start rocking with a gospel song. And the folk in the bar hear it. Well, the girl who's lead, the woman who's leading the bar stuff is the daughter of the preacher who's sort of alienated. She's sort of alienated. She's sort of a prodigal. And she comes out and she starts singing the song and leading the folk from the

bar into the church. And the song they sing is God is trying to tell you something. I got a feeling that in that experience, God was trying to tell us something about God's dream and vision for the human family. And while none of us anticipated a pandemic, this kind of worldwide strife, while no one was consciously thinking of impact on climate and what that's going to mean and how we're going to navigate through that, The truth is, there may have been a message. You're in this together. You need each other. You need me. And if we do it that way, we can figure our way through.

You know, I'm not a mystical person. I'm not. I mean, I wish I was, but I'm not. I mean, I'm an ordinary guy, but I could sense that. You could feel that there. And I think those contrasts were brought together because God was trying to tell us something. Yeah. It does feel like there was something bigger. There was a much bigger context slash container slash unspoken message that really infiltrated the moment. And as you said,

would be beautiful if we could keep that growing and expanding and amplifying that. I know you wrote in your recent book that you can't open someone else's heart without being true to your own. When you commit to being yourself in any environment, even your presence can be a powerful corrective. And it seems like when you stepped into that room, it almost felt like you made a decision that I will step in as me, as all of me, the way I have always been. And I guess that sort of speaks to what you opened with, which is 60 some odd years into life, maybe that's a little bit easier also. You've been doing this a long time, you know who you are. So it gives you access to that differently i

think it helps i think it really does because i mean i mean while you continue to be formed and you don't do you continue to grow and evolve and develop that's that's good that's life i mean that means you're still alive the only things that don't grow are dead so you're still growing evolving and developing and all that kind of stuff but there's a sense in which, as the old song, I've been up and I've been down, you know, and there's more to come, I'm sure. But I'm okay with Michael. I got my imperfections and perfections. Okay, that's part of the lot. And I keep trying to improve and grow. But I'm OK that the pace is sometimes slow. And, you know, at 60, 65, whenever that when that when that service actually happened, I was just very aware of that. I was kind of settled. You know, at first, I mean, that's right. It's a pretty frightening one.

I didn't know two billion people were going to be watching. I had no idea how many people would actually watch. Probably a good thing. Yeah, probably good. And then two, it's easy to forget that you're actually on television because at the chapel, at St. George's Chapel, the cameras are recessed. You can't see them. So you don't actually see. It's not like the old days

where you see a camera and a camera person standing behind them with headphones. You don't actually see them. So you almost't actually see it's not like the old days where you or where you see a camera and a camera person standing behind him with headphones. You know, you don't actually see them. So you almost forget that the cameras are there, which is dangerous because you don't want to scratch your nose or something, because the whole world could see you scratch your nose. And and after a while, even though you're sitting in the midst, especially in that part of the sanctuary, I mean, the royal family is all up there. I mean, and, you know, that's a pretty intimidating kind of crowd. I mean, and yet they were sitting in pews just like church folk. Well, I've been around church folk a long time. I'm going back to my grandma. And I know church folks body language, even if they don't say anything. So I know if they're asleep or if they're really paying attention or they're trying to.

You can read the face. You can read. You can read the eyes. And there were moments when I could see, OK, we're connecting. We're talking. There's a conversation going on, even though there are no amens coming back at me and nobody's, you know, nobody's shouting or any of that. But but I could see response, human response, the response of soul talking to soul. And that I mean, I know that that's I mean, from all the years of being a pastor and a preacher. And I've learned that when heart touches heart, when soul touches soul, that's when something is happening. Everything else is preliminary to that. But when heart touches heart. I used to have a lady when I was a young, young priest in my 30s.

And this is in Lincoln Heights, Ohio, just outside of Cincinnati, all black town, just on the outskirts of the city that was actually settled in the 20s, part of the great migration that a number of people have written about over the years. Anyway, it was a fairly poor settlement of Blacks going north from the South, heading north in the 20s, 30s. Long and short, eventually, there was a church founded there. And to this day, it's a small one square mile, basically, Black African-American community to this day, struggling with all of the issues that are attendant to that. But anyway, I was there in the 80s, and there were a few, only one or two people in the congregation who I was aware of who probably didn't read or if they did, it was not very well. And one of them was a dear woman who worked as a domestic worker for many years and was in her

seventies when I was there. And she was still having to work because, you know, social security is a blessing, but it's not enough. It's just not enough. And so she would come to the early service at seven because I guess she would work the evening and then, you know, come to service. We had a seven o'clock service, a 730 service, excuse me. Anyway, she would come. And and when when she would, you know, feel good about something, she would like sometimes she'd come to communion. She'd clap her hand, just say, thank you, Jesus. Just clap her hand. Thank you. And, you know, little kids would giggle. They would always love to see her do that. But every Sunday after the service, she would come to the door and you're standing at the door greeting. And sometimes she would say, that was a nice message this morning. And then other

times she would say, well, that's a nice robe you have on. So I knew, okay, we didn't connect. Other times she would come out and say, oh, you preached this morning. And it took me a while to kind of figure out what did she, she was sending messages. Each one was a different, you know, I said, what was different when she said, oh, you preached this morning? Finally realized that it had nothing to do with my erudition. It had nothing to do with my oratorical skills. It had nothing to do with how funny I was or how animated. It had nothing to do with any of that. It had to do was did soul touch soul, did spirit touch spirit, did heart touch heart, did something in her life get touched by something either that I said or evoked? And did she in that moment have an experience of a transcendent reality

that was bigger than the hard work that she had to do all week long, still having to work? That's, when that happens, you know, and it doesn't happen all the time, but when that happens, that's bigger than Michael Couric. I've learned that. You can't conjure that happens, that's bigger than Michael Couric. I've learned that.

You can't conjure that, manufacture that. And I knew that that was true, that was going to be ahead of the service, that that was going to be true at the royal wedding. That ultimately I just needed to somehow create space and some hearts for God to do God's thing. And when that happens, it's not a nice talk. Preaching happened. And so once I got to the point of saying, that's what I got to do, then was okay it didn't matter where I was yeah it was interesting to see also you I'm sort of drawing on my memory here but my recollection is because I was for some reason I was following your gaze while you were speaking. And almost entirely, you were speaking to the couple.

And I rarely saw you turn out to the denomination, to the congregants there, which really aligns with what you're saying. Like you had something that you wanted to create. And, but fundamentally you were there to create this energy, this experience. It's almost like, I feel like you thought, well, if i can create

this for these two people stepping into this thing together then everybody else who participates in that as a quote observer is going to feel it too yes and it felt like an intentional call for you yes talk to them talk to them and other, you know, that story in Genesis by Abraham and Sarah, when God comes and talk to Abraham or God shows up in there and is in conversation with Abraham and Sarah, his, his wife is eavesdropping at the tent over liquor. That's what's going on. That was what was going on. I mean, I'm not God, but I mean, I was talking to this couple, I mean, to the two of them. And there were two billion Sarahs eavesdropping at the tent. Some of those Sarahs were sitting right there in the church building. The rest of them were all watching on TV or they had big screens outside of the chapel. So there were people

outside watching that way, but they were eavesdropping and we were all eavesdropping on a conversation that was going on really between two people and hopefully God. And I was just facilitating that. And at a wedding, you can do that. I mean, that's kind of, you really are talking to the two of them because tradition is that actually the ministers of a wedding are actually the couple, not the preachers, not the clergy. The clergy are facilitating that, but actually the two ministers are whoever's getting married. They're the ones taking the vows. They're the ones, they're actually doing all the heavy lifting. We're just facilitating, just helping them out. That's such an interesting lens. I mean, you mentioned that you also, you've had your own ups and downs. You essentially grew up in the

church, born in Chicago, raised in Buffalo. Dad was a Episcopal priest. Interestingly though, I guess he didn't start out that way. Your dad came up, his dad was Baptist, but he, I guess after meeting your mom, had an, and 40s. That would have been the world in which they grew up. My mother had become an Episcopalian in college some years before, but daddy was still a Baptist when he went to undergrad at Wilberforce University and then stayed and went to the seminary. He was going to become a Baptist preacher. That was his intent at that point. He was studying in the seminary. He had already graduated from undergrad. And my mother was teaching at the undergrad.

And how they met, I don't really know. That's a part of the story. And everybody who knows that story is dead now. So I have to wait and get to heaven and ask them. But at some point they met, started courting and dating. And in the course of their, while they were dating, mommy took him to church with her. And so he went and he had never been in. Well, two things. He had never been in an Episcopal church. I don't even know if he had heard of the Episcopal church before that. So he had never been in one.

And he had never been in a predominantly white church. I mean, because wherever they went, I don't know the church, it was pretty much white, maybe a few blacks, I don't know. So he'd never been in either one of those contexts, which also meant he had never been in a liturgical context where communion would be served in the way in which it was served, where everyone was basically drinking from the same cup. And it was the experience of that, of communion in that setting, where he saw my mother drink from the cup during communion. And then he saw white people drink from the same cup afterward. That, and when he would tell this story, you know, when you're kids, you get tired of hearing it, but, but when he would tell the story, you know, when you're kids, you get tired of hearing it, but

when he would tell the story, he would say at that moment, that's when he realized any church that where blacks and whites drink from the same cup knows something about the gospel I want to be a part of. And so, you know, this is like 19, late forties, 1940s, mid 40s, just after World War II. I mean, you know, Martin Luther King was in seminary himself at this point. Rosa Parks was not and was, you know, still sitting at the back of the bus. You know, Jackie Robinson hadn't happened yet. I mean, Brown versus Board of Education haven't happened yet. You know, I mean, so this is a long time before the Montgomery bus boycott, the March on Washington or Selma March or any is long before all of that. This is still segregated America. And I mean, even I mean, Harry S.

Truman had not yet desegregated the military. I mean, that's the context in which we're talking. And he saw blacks and whites drinking from the same cup. And he said, whatever religious tradition this has got to do with, I want to be a part of that because it knows something about God. And so that's what kind of led him into the Episcopal church. And realistically, he had to learn that even though that was the case in terms of the ritual, and it was, the whole Episcopal church had not been converted. It wasn't Shangri-La. It wasn't the kingdom of God in its fullness, but at least it had the vision of what it was supposed to be. And so he dared to live that and became an

Episcopal priest. And he, you know, interestingly enough, he and I had a conversation at some point because daddy was a much more reserved, I mean, in the pulpit, he was certainly very reserved. Whatever emotion there was in him when he got to Episcopal seminary, they took it out of him. And he said that they actually taught you that back in the, this is back in the fifties when he would have been in seminary, Episcopal seminary. He said that they actually taught you that back in the, this is back in the fifties when he would have been in seminary, physical seminary. He said that they actually taught you that the display of emotion was a sign of lack of intellect. And so therefore, when one preaches, one gives a learned dissertation, a reflection, but not a display of emotion. It should be an intellectual exercise that, I don't know, does what, but anyway, it's supposed to be an intellectual exercise. Well, I mean, obviously the sermon ought to have

some intelligence to it, but it ought to be felt. Now, that doesn't mean anybody has to feel the way I feel or the way somebody else feels, but it ought to be, hopefully you believe what you're saying, or at least you're trying to believe what you're saying. And that changed by the time I went to seminary. That had really, in terms of what they teach folk in seminaries, changed dramatically. But at one point we were talking and I don't remember, I'm sure I was ordained by that time. He said, you preach like your grandfather. More of the Baptist tradition. Yeah, he was. He said, you preach like your grandfather. He said, but just remember, don't put on a show.

Be who you really are. That was like kind of one of those in the car conversate kind of things. But I get it. I mean, I really do get it. You know, there's, I have to admit, while I was nervous ahead of time at the royal wedding, once I was preaching, I wasn't because I was doing what I do. Yeah. If, I mean, it's, it's like, I mean, you know, you think about it, people who act,

we give them awards, we give them Oscars and Emmys and Tonys And they make a lot of money because acting is hard work. Being who you actually are is not hard work. It actually is. Now, it takes, there's discipline and there's learning and growth. I mean, I get all that. But it's not heavy lifting. It's actually lightening, letting go of a load of having to pretend and having to prove yourself. It's presenting more and more, but there really is. Because at some point you have to say, you know what? Like me, dislike me, love me, not love me. But was it Frank Sinatra singing a song? I got to be me. I got to be me.

You know? And me is okay. Yeah. I mean, it's such a great place to get to. And I wonder if so many of us struggle to stand in that sort of like deeper essence of who we are publicly and share that person. Because if we are performing someone else or some other, you know, like facade of what we think people want or will receive openly, and that gets rejected, well, we can put on a different coat the next day, you know, we can wear a different facade,

you know, it's not the capitalist self. It's not the essence of us that they have said different facade. It's not the capitalist self. It's not the essence of us that they have said no to. It's this thing that we projected, whereas if we let that go and we just show up without the coat and we just say, I am, this is me. And then somebody says, well, but you're not my flavor. That hurts and I feel like we don't, so many of us enter adulthood without the skills and the understanding. Just be okay with that and say, I am not everybody's flavor. And that's okay. And so we keep wearing these different things to try and buffer ourselves from that rather than just letting it go and then spending the time to move through the world

as that person and know that eventually those who would genuinely connect with that person that essence will um you'll be in community with it may take time but we're i think we're scared we'll never act that that moment will never happen so we never actually let it happen yeah that's that's yeah i think there is a fear. I know that, I mean, for all of us, I mean, you know, still at my age of 67, still, there are moments when I feel like, oh, I've got to be, you know, I've got to be this role or that. Well, you know, you have roles that you have to play, but listen to the language, roles that you have to play. Right. Not roles that you necessarily are. And, and, and that's, it does take work to have to,

I remember when I first became a Bishop, I had been a parish pastor for, oh God, well, I don't know how many years, 25 years or so. And I was elected Bishop and I had a spiritual director, kind of a spiritual guy, somebody who kind of you check in with every month and spend time with and talk about your soul, who was a retired bishop at the time. And I remember joking with him, but I wasn't really joking. I said, you know, I'm feeling very awkward. All of a sudden, I've got a role that's more of a role than I'm, I mean, it's, it's, it's like, I can't, I'm not doing, you know, I feel awkward in it. And I was expressing all that. And I said, you know, I mean, you know, I'm not used to wearing a Bishop's ring and, you know, and they have this big ring on their right hand. And it's like holding my hand down. I'm not used to that. I was using joking language about it,

but I was actually wrestling with self and role and how are the two really related. And I remember he said, his name is Walter Dennis. He said, just travel lightly with that. You know, you'll try some things on and some will fit and some won't. He said, but at some point in time, it won't be a matter of you're being forced to fit into the clothes of the role, if you will. At some point in time, you and the clothes will meet at a sweet spot, which is where you actually inhabit the role

and then you'll find that you're free. And, you know, what he was saying was, yeah, you're going to have to try some stuff. You're going to have to play with that. And he was actually right. I mean, you got to kind of play with that. Well, no, that doesn't feel quite right. No, that felt okay. Yeah, I wasn't feel quite right. Well, that felt okay.

Yeah, I wasn't sweating doing that. And over time, you begin to, you and the role actually meet at a sweet spot. And then you are the bishop or the bishop is you, whatever the right language is. And when that happens, you're inhabiting the role

and it inhabits you in authentic and genuine ways. And people see that. Everybody knows somebody who's full of it. I mean, you know, we all do. I mean, and somebody who's real, we may be skeptical. Okay, is this real, really real real it's like velveteen was velveteen rabbit kind of is this really really real uh real real but you know something's for real when you see it and you know it's fake when you do over time sometimes it takes a while

but when you see it there's there's a it's a beautiful thing yeah completely agree i think uh i think you feel it more than know it cognitively yeah um there's something that you that moves through you when you're in the presence of someone who is being utterly themselves and i wonder if we doubt it sometimes because in my experience it's much more the exception than the rule these days but it it's an interesting reflection to sort of like find the sweet spot between uh like stepping into something that you in a certain way inherited a certain container but also really giving yourself the freedom to play with it to dance with it a little bit to see where where is the sweet spot between

where I can authentically show up and what this preexisting thing is. For you, it was a particular role in faith. For other people, it may be a job, a title, a position that they're stepping into. It's all the same dance. It's learning how to bring that part of yourself still to that experience. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk.

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Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. One of the things that I've been curious about too is that the relationship between activism, social justice, um, spirituality, faith traditions.

I know in your life that an understanding of the interconnectedness of those things touched down really early and never, never really left you. It was a part of your upbringing. It's been a part of you. I mean, you're ordained in 78 and I feel like almost immediately that was always a through line. in 78 and I feel like almost immediately that was always a through line it was always a bigger lens on what is happening in the community not just in the context of what's happening in the church and with the teachings and relationship but also how do these things weave together with ideas of

justice and activism and I know you feel strongly that social justice really needs a spiritual base to almost structurally survive. Yeah, it really does. I mean, the work of laboring to create a just, humane, decent, compassionate, loving society and or world, community. Start with communities, homes. It's work. And it is very often work contrary to the way things actually are. It is social change and change that seeks to move from what is with it, with whatever is wrong to something closer to what might look like the ideal of, of life and liberty and abundant for all.

You can't get from point A to Z. You're not gonna ease on down the road. And so it is, as Frederick Douglass said, those who want change without struggle are like folk who want crops without having to plow up the ground. You got to plow up the ground. And so it is a struggle and it is a long-term struggle where things are not accomplished overnight. You know, Dr. Martin Luther King in 1963,

the March on Washington, you know, his speech and now John Lewis's speech, you know, in light of his recent death and more of an awareness of the remarkable role that he has played in the history of this country. But there had been marches on Washington that had been going on for years. I mean, there were union marches on Washington. Everybody marched. Veterans marched on Washington. Everybody marched on Washington and went to the to the foot of the Lincoln Memorial. And and yet, I mean, going back to A. Philip Randolph and the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters, that's what predated that march on Washington. My granddaddy love was was on the railroad and was a Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porter man. I mean, he was an A. Philip Randolph man. I mean, and they were going to marches back in the 40s. And they were just marching for decent wages very often.

But that was back in the 40s they were doing that. And finally, it kind of came to a head in 63 when there was enough media that could make it almost instantaneous so that you could actually see it. That didn't happen overnight. That happened over a long period of time. I mean, there were struggles, NAACP and others were advocating for the abolition of lynching laws in this country. And do you know we still haven't finished it?

Now we're getting close. I mean, there's legislation in Congress right now. The point is true justice, a true true humane and compassionate society does not happen overnight. Progress does not happen, as Dr. King said, inevitably. It happens because people are dogged and determined to stay in for the long haul, to work passionately, to work lovingly. Because if you don't work lovingly, it's going to grind you up. It's going to grind you up and spit you out to stay in for the long haul. And the truth is, I don't have the strength on my own to stay in for the long haul. You don't have the strength on your own to stay in for the long haul. I will get bitter. I will get frustrated. I will give up. The truth is we need power greater than our own to help to sustain us through the long

distance run, through the marathon that is social justice and social change. We are not going to ease on down that road. It's a long, you know, there's a passage. I mean, now you know you want Bible passages, but there is a great one. It's in Isaiah. They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up on wings like eagles. They shall run and not be weary. And then listen to this. They shall walk and not faint. You would think they'd faint from running. No, they shall walk. It's the walking. It's like Nelson Mandela's long walk to freedom. It is that long Selma march. It is a long walk to freedom of hard work. And we need energy that's more than just our energy. We need the energy of community,

human community. But we need the energy of the great spirit of the God who is the author of love and will help us make that love happen and realize the change. And so social justice and spirituality must go together. They just have to go together, separated. It becomes like a. A grape on a vine. Separated from the root. It'll live for a while, but it will wither up and decay. Connected to the vine, to the deep branch and root. It has a source of energy that will, it can survive. And I saw, yeah, I just think spirituality, I mean, it's not an accident that Dr. King saw in Thich Nhat Hanh, for example.

He nominated him for the Nobel Peace Prize. He saw something in somebody like Thich Nhat Hanh, somebody who had, there was a spirituality that enabled him to tap into the deeper roots, the deeper sources of life and energy. I mean, when we talk about God, you know, it's easy to talk about God. No, no, no. We're talking about the source of life and energy. I mean, when we talk about God, you know, it's easy to talk about God. No, no, no. We're talking about the source of life itself. And it's at the source that the greatest energy is to be found.

That's the spark. That's the energy. Got to tap into that source if you're going to work, if you're going to swim against the current of the way things are to try to help things to become what God originally had in mind when God first said, let there be anything beside me. That's what Genesis, that's what the Bible says.

God said, let there be something beside me. That's the beginning. Tap into that energy and then let there be light. Let there be a world, let there be a new world, which is why the work of social justice can never simply be secular work.

It must combine the sacred and the secular. It must bring the best of both together. Yeah. You also shared something while you were just speaking. At some point, you used to phrase something like a loving heart. It has to come from that place, which reminded me of a conversation that you had recently with Ruby Sales, where you were talking about this. And I think it was her who said, she said to you, the struggle for justice is the struggle towards redemption and not retribution. You have to imagine the good in people, figure out ways to call them to their higher selves, which I almost wonder if coming from somebody else, that notion may just be dismissed as being naive. Coming from Ruby Sales, who has lived this her entire life and been at the forefront of this movement, you really have to sit back and think about it and say, well, okay, so what's really underneath this?

Yeah. I mean, I'll speak for myself. I won't speak for anybody else, but I got a feeling it applies to. I'm a pretty good guy, but if you hit me, I'm either going to fight or flight. You're going to get one of those two.

That's going to be the intrinsic reaction. Now, that's just sort of a, that's just a given. I mean, I think if you did that to Mahatma Gandhi, his first reaction would be fight or flight. I mean, that's just, that's human, all right? And to teach me that there's a third way, not simply flight, but not simply fight in the old way. To teach me that there's another way, that maybe what I need to do is, well, what Gandhi did call Moro Jiu-Jitsu, that I need to take the negative, the power of your negative energy and

transform it into a positive energy and then recreate the situation as best I can. I can't do that on my own. I mean, I can train myself in nonviolent techniques, just like you get trained in a fire drill as a kid in school so that you just automatically do something if the fire alarm goes off. You don't even have to think about it. You can train yourself in nonviolent technique, but at some point, there's a part of me that's going to want to fight or flee. And to find that third way, if you will, I need my own willpower, but I need willpower greater than my own. To engage in the work of justice and really trying to work for a just society means you must confront injustice. And to confront injustice in ways that are genuinely loving, that actually seeks to convert the heart

of those who are perpetuating the injustice, as well as remove and change the injustice itself, that is extra work that Michael Curry doesn't just do by nature. That takes a little extra. I fight by nature and I'll flee by nature, but I won't seek to transform by nature. At least I don't. Now there may be some listening. No, not by nature. And that's why I say, I think there's all, if we're going to find the third way beyond the either or, we've got to have the author of the third way help us. And if the way of love, if God is the author of love, as I believe God is, if God is the author of true justice, as I believe God is, then I want to tap into the original source of love, the original source of justice, the original source of compassion, the original source of goodness. I want that same energy to become part of my energy. As that happens, then it becomes

possible for me to be more than simply what my lower nature would do. That somehow my higher nature, when they go low, we go high. And that becomes possible. But that is not merely a humanistic endeavor. That is a partnership of the divine and the human. And I suspect that that's the reason that many of the agents of real social change have been religious folk. It is the same impulse that creates a church cathedral that creates a young girl named Malala who stands up for girls and women in Afghanistan. It is the same sublime beauty of the medieval cathedral that you see in the life of a Fannie Lou Hamer, Mississippi Freedom Party. It's the same. You see what I'm getting at? It's getting back that beauty, the source of that beauty that we see

translated into the medieval, the Gothic cathedral. It's that source that is the author or the source of the same beauty in a human life, well-lived in the life of a John Lewis. I used to see him on the planes. I live in Raleigh, North Carolina, but so I'm often back and forth in Atlanta or actually in Atlanta airport a lot. As the old joke says, wherever you're going in the South, if you're on Delta airline, you're going through Atlanta. You may be going to heaven,

you may be going to hell, but if you're on Delta airlines, you're going through Atlanta first. And so I live, I mean, I'm always going through Atlanta. Well, very often the flight there, one of the flights from DC, if you're on Friday from DC, from national to Atlanta on Delta, you'll see members of Congress all the time because they're going home. The Southern ones are heading and they're going through Atlanta, depending on where they're going. And I would see John Lewis all the time on, on one of those flights and he'd always get on and always speak and was always sitting in coach. Just the normal, I mean, it wasn't affected humility. It was, he was just being himself. And, you know, you sit down and talk with, yeah, you talk to people on the plane. It's just kind

of normal. That kind of spirit, that kind of spirit could be wiped out by the world. But a transcendent source has the power to counter what the world would try to take out of it. And create a gentle, humble, powerful human being who is Mahatma, great soul. And those are the folk. Those are the folk who change things. And some of them are big ones like, you know, John Lewis and everybody knows about. But some of them are people whose name we'd never know, like the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Yeah.

This third way. Let's talk about it a bit. It was the focus of where we started our conversation, your sermon at the Royal Wedding. It has become a growing focus of every time I've seen you share words and ideas, love is the way, that it's everything circles back to this idea of love. And we started talking about it in the context of how do you actually access that in the context of social justice? How do you approach the world from this place of love? I think on when times are good, when you have great relationships with people whose opinions you agree and who are not causing you or society around you or those you love harm, I think a lot of us will nod along and say, well, yeah, that makes sense. I know when

I have great loving relationships and I can express it and receive it, my life is a better place and the community, my world is better for that. I think we'll get pretty solid agreement with all of that. And then we sort of look at the world around us now. And I think a lot of people struggle with the notion of, okay, but what about when someone is causing you harm? What about when we look at what's actually happening now with violence around race. When people are literally dying in the streets, how do we approach others who we perceive as or may well be in a very real and measurable way causing us or those we care about our community harm and violence? How do we approach this situation?

How do we rise up from a place of activism, this place of love and still feel well a how do we actually access that in ourselves because it's brutally hard sometimes and then how do we buy into the fact that if we come at the problem from that place that will lead us that is the best way to get to the outcome we most seek. Wow. Ultimately, love is an action, but it's the fruit of a deeper root. It begins with an inner conviction, an inner disposition. I'm not sure what the right word, but it's something that begins within and that has to get nurtured without. I remember when I was a kid, I used to always hear folk quote Booker T. Washington. I think Booker T. Washington said it, but he's sort of like George Washington. Of course he said that. But I suspect it was Booker T. Washington who said,

never let any man drag you so low as to drag you to hate him. And that was a constant refrain that I heard growing up. And the folk who said it were often saying it, maybe these are members of family, in the context of civil rights struggles. I mean, that's where it would come up. And it was the kind of thing you'd say to kids, you know. There was an inner disposition that I knew that that was the right way. That love was the right way to affect the change we wanted, because it would enable us to reflect that change as well as to affect the change itself. But how do you actually internalize that, organize it, and then mobilize it? And that becomes the translation of love from an internal disposition

to an actual commitment that actually leads to actions that reflect that love. And so you've got to go through those three things, the internal thing, the commitment, and then actions that reflect that internal commitment. So how do you do that? One, I think you got to do it in community. We get on each other's nerves, but we are necessary to each other. We just really are. Because there are moments when you're strong and I'm weak and vice versa. I mean, we need each other to do that. So you've got to be part of a community of I mean to God. You really do. The source of love, and you got to nurture that. And then three, you got to figure out what are the practical, tangible ways that I can actually make love live, not only in my life, my interpersonal life, but in the broader life of my community and or maybe world. What are the practical? Who are folk who are actually,

or organizations or groups who are actually doing love, doing the loving thing? Who are they? And to keep all that in focus, you move forward with with that. I saw that growing up now to some extent, you know, growing up in the old black communities in those days back the, this would have been in the 60s. I mean, but in those times, you had a community that was relatively, I mean, relatively, that was segregated. And so it's, you actually had a community that was self-contained and was already existent, so to speak. We don't all have that today. It's a little bit different today. But that tells me that the community is important. And so I remember hearing about when we said we got to take care of the community, there was a sense in which we needed each other to survive in a society that wasn't always friendly to our community and to us. Now, minority peoples have known that. I mean, that's not

anything new, but that's just the nature of the reality. So you do need those communities. But those communities in those days also knew that if we were going to do, we were going to both internalize, organize, and then mobilize this love we were talking about, that we needed concrete actions that were going to actually do it. In those days, it was clear we needed to desegregate America as much as possible. And usually schools and all that kind of stuff were the immediate targets, but everything needed to be desegregated. And so that was one approach, one set of actions. And I remember when, and this is in Buffalo, New York, when the schools,

when there was a big desegregation effort, it would have been, well, I was in the fourth grade going into the fifth grade. So that was, I was in the fifth grade when John Kennedy was assassinated. I was 63. So this would were sent to, went from a school that was predominantly Black, not exclusively, but predominantly Black, to cross Main Street from East Buffalo into West Buffalo, which was predominantly Italian at that time. And so we, that's where we went. And so I went from fourth grade in one context to fifth grade in a completely, across Main Street, if you will. Before we did that, before that happened, they brought us together Sunday school and church. I don't remember all that they told us, but they reminded us, you are a representative of your community. You are a representative of your people. You have an obligation to act in such a way that you will help us all move forward. You treat everybody

with respect. You treat everybody the way you want to be treated. And you need to show what we can do as a community. That's your contribution. Now, they got even more specific. You see, if you got to internalize, organize, and mobilize, that means you need to stay out of trouble. You need to do what you're told. Don't get in fights. I mean, they got really specific. This is like more specific than the Ten Commandments. This is for kids. This was how we actually mobilized. They were talking about how do you mobilize love? This was mobilized love in our context for kids. I mean, they didn't use that language, but that's what they were actually doing. And so we went to fifth grade.

Our job was to study, to learn, to stay out of the principal's office because you were in trouble about something, to do your homework, to do. That was our job. That's what love looked like in the fifth grade for a kid. Desegregate. My point is there was community. This was in Sunday school. So it was in a context of a God context, if you will. And it was love in action. I want to suggest that that model. Is a model for us today. That now, whether it's Black Lives Matter, whether it's other protests for social justice or other works, now we must do the same kind of thing, form communities who are committed to change that is grounded in love, that seeks the good and the well-being of everybody, not just my good and well-being, but yours as well. Good and well-being of those who perpetuate a system of oppression and injustice,

because they are as enslaved as those who they seek to enslave. The slave master on the plantation in America was as enslaved, though they didn't know it, as the slave who had shackles on them. Truth is, if anybody gets free, everybody's got the possibility of getting free. And so we've got to figure out ways to form communities, to be in relationship with God, to internalize, to organize, and then to mobilize love in practical, concrete ways. For example, Black Lives Matter, if all the protests just stay protests and do not translate into voting and do not translate into re-imagining policing and criminal justice and practical concrete ways. If it doesn't mobilize, then it is for naught.

But if it is internalized, the spirit of love must be internalized and then organized and then mobilized into action, then something positive and constructive happens as long as the internalized love continues to be the thread through the organization and the mobilization. If that thread of love gets lost, then even the cry for justice can become a cry for revenge. And that's not the change we need. That's just, Dr. King said it well, darkness cannot cast out darkness, only light can do that. And hate cannot cast out hate, only love can do that. Love must be the internalized thread that leads to action for change. And then the change will have the potential to be healing change.

It's powerful to see that show up at scale in society. idea. 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is?

You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we we need him y'all need a pilot flight risk you know you've also had a an interesting experience bringing this same lens to your very organization like now as the first uh african-american head of the episcopal church um you almost immediately upon being elected looked within your own the denomination and the organization of the church and it feels like you stepped in and said where are we not doing this you know where are we not leading from this place and as coming into a church where, as you described, this is a denomination which is, for generations and generations, been largely white. But also it's been a denomination, as many faith-based denominations

are, they have rules of inclusion and exclusion. One of those being, and this is something you took a stand on very early, marriage equality and saying, we want to be a place where if we are truly leading with a loving heart, then we need to love all and not judge and exclude. And so it was interesting to see you take this idea or ideal and actualize it and mobilize it and then put weight and action behind it within the organization and the community of the church. And at the same time, it wasn't universally received well by everyone within, you know, but, but you had, you had an interesting take, you know, you say like, this is my belief system. This is how I believe we need to move forward that it is important to um to acknowledge people with of different genders sexual orientations races and invite and make

this a place where we love all of them we offer that to all of them that is where we come from some people said but that that is not how i understand right um our tradition to have gotten us to this place you had a really interesting quote about this. It was a conversation you had with somebody at the New York Times not too long ago, where you shared, what I believe about human equality and dignity is grounded in what I believe about the love of God, and that love is not coercive. So I have to respect my brothers and sisters who differ on this question enough to not be coercive. of those who also are part of the leadership to adopt this same belief set and to open the arms as widely

as you would love to see them opened. And yet at the same time, there's something inside of you that says, I need to also at the same time love who they are in this position that they're currently standing in and keep doing the work to hopefully see them evolve, but not in this, it was interesting language, coercive, quote, coercive way. Yeah. Yeah. And it's delicate. It is a delicate,

difficult, because it's, especially when I was a Bishop of North Carolina for 12 years, the Episcopal Church had been working a long time around concerns of human sexuality and what would full inclusion of LGBTQ folk in the life of the church fully, what does that look like and what does that mean? I mean, the church kind of said that all are welcome and it said that, but you've, you know, you got to live into it. You've got to figure out what does that mean? I mean, what does that look like? And I can't remember the exact year, but the ordination of Bishop Gene Robinson as Bishop of New Hampshire kind of crystallized it. I mean, again, there was a lot that had gone on before that, but kind of crystallized it. And it was a moment when the church kind of had to decide. It was a moment of deciding who are we going to be? I don't remember exactly what year it was. I want to say.

2003, in fact, it was it was 2003 when Bishop Robinson was elected, who was a gay man, a partnered gay man. This was prior to marriage equality. Marriage hadn't happened yet. But he was a partnered gay man, a priest of longstanding, and he was elected and eventually ordained Bishop of New Hampshire. And that really caused a firestorm in the church, both here in the U.S. and the Anglican communion around the world. And I was bishop of North Carolina at the time. And, you know, a wonderful diocese, diocese in a state that I love. difficult time here as it was in other places because it meant a change in thousands of years of understanding of human sexuality. I mean, it really did. And challenged some assumptions and things that we were all, if not taught, were just assumed. And so it was, even though there had been education and all sorts of work that had been going on on and even in Episcopal church for years, this was a cultural this was the right thing to do because I really do believe,

you know, there's that old medieval hymn, Ubi Caritas, where it says, where true love is found, God himself is there. And that my experience had been that I had seen real love and friends of mine who were of the same gender. At the time, I said, I know gay people who have been in marital-like relationships for years, decades, and I'm seeing real love there. And if I'm seeing real love there, can it be that where true love is found, God himself is there? And I went back and looked at scriptures and wrestled and did all of that and kind of came to the conclusion that, you know, the dominant law in scripture is love. That is the dominant law. And I'm sorry, you know, you may agree with me or disagree, but I believe that that

is the dominant. It is the dominant thing in the teachings of Jesus. You see it in the Hebrew scriptures. You see, I mean, Jesus got it from the Hebrew scripture. You see it in the Hebrew scriptures. You see, I mean, Jesus got it from the Hebrew scripture. You see it in Christian scriptures. And if you look deeply in religious traditions, you will see that this way of unselfish sacrificial love that seeks the good and the well-being of others, as well as itself, undergirds religion at its best. It's there. And I mean, the New Testament says that God is love. I mean, it actually makes that bold declaration. I mean, my God, think about that. God is love, which means the source of any kind of genuine love that you see and believe that God has for me is the same love that God has for you. And where true love is found, God himself is there. And on the one hand, it was a step, but not a leap for me at that point in my life, to say that about my understanding of folk who are LGBTQ folk,

that if God loves them, like that old hymn says, just as I am without one plea, if God loves them the same way God loves me, then the church has to change. What I didn't anticipate was the realization that the same love that I believe God has for LGBTQ folk, God has for the folk who opposed changing the church. That love is an equal opportunity employer, that this way of love must somehow embrace us all. Make the change, but make the change in ways that include us all. And that meant it would be easy in one thing,

you know what I mean? Easy to be self-righteous and, oh yeah, I'm standing up for the good cause and all that kind of, that's easy. What's more difficult is to stand for what you believe is right. And at the same time, make space for those who disagree with you in In genuine love, respect and charity. And to hold those two in tension. And to try to hold both of those together. That is the hard work. Of love.

That seeks to change. What hurts and harms. And yet seeks to change what hurts and harms, and yet seeks to change in ways that lead to healing for all. But it's the only way of change that really changes. Any other way is just one side winning and another side losing. I think they tried, they were working on that in South Africa. When instead of having the Nuremberg-like trials

for the perpetuators of apartheid, they realized that they needed to do something that would help to set the stage for the long-term healing of South Africa. And they moved to another model, not of victor and vanquished but one of truth and reconciliation where the truth must be told and there must be judgment

people must be accountable and yet the eventual goal must also be reconciliation to renew and restore relationships between people. That's the hard work, the hard discipline of love. Dr. King talked about it in terms of nonviolence. It is the nonviolent way that he said it well at the end of the Montgomery bus boycott, 1956 or so. He was asked about the boycott and he said, you know, to be sure we wanted to desegregate public transportation. And that was the immediate, you know, proximate. That was what we were mobilizing for.

And he said the goal was, you know, desegregation. You know, the goal was integration. So the goal, the goal was reconciliation. The goal was redemption. And then he said, no, the goal is the creation of the beloved community. That that is the ultimate goal. You can't get the beloved community by unloving means. You got to love the whole way.

And I said to later when I was presiding bishop and said to other archbishops from around the world who disagreed with with our actions when we actually did make it possible for merit to be open to all. that makes room and space for LGBTQ folk, makes space for you and me, even when we disagree. That's the power of love. And ultimately, it will set us all free. Yeah, feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So we've been having this conversation, this container, the Good Life Project. If I offer up the phrase, to live a good life, what comes up? To live a good life is to live a life where love defines who you are and makes you more than you ever dreamed you could be.

That's a good life. Thank you. Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you so much for listening. And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes. And while you're at it, if you've ever asked yourself, what should I do with my life? We have created a really cool online assessment that will help you discover the source code for the work that you're here to do.

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