Good Life Project - [BONUS] Becoming Limitless | Laura Gassner Otting

Episode Date: April 25, 2019

Thrust into the world of presidential politics in her twenties, Laura Gassner Otting (https://lauragassnerotting.com/) found herself working in the White House, before a series of events led her to launch her own firm, and grew it into a powerhouse in the non-profit search world, then eventually sell the company to focus on her next act. Having worked at the highest levels of power and potential, she learned a ton about what truly makes people feel what she calls “limitless.” Her awakenings are distilled into a great new book, appropriately entitled, Limitless, which builds upon something she calls consonance. In this episode, we explore her remarkable journey. -------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Before we dive in, one quick special thing to share with you. We love you all so much. We seriously love our listeners. And so many of you have shared how much they really love the show. And it kind of is crazy humbling and exciting. And it's amazing to be able to share the stories and the conversations with you.

We're also incredibly fortunate to have access to kind of an astonishing universe of inspiring and cool guests. And the truth is, in our current once a week format, we actually haven't had enough time to share all of the amazing humans who have been coming to us. So we're going to do a bit of a super cool, fun experiment. Starting this week and running through the end of May, we're adding a second weekly episode on Thursdays. And this is insanely cool. The entire month of May is going to be our Music in May month.

So every new Thursday episode that we now add to your stream will feature an incredible musician or singer, songwriter, performer with a deep dive conversation capped off by a live performance in the studio. At the end, we have some incredibly amazing people lined up for you. Some true legends sharing stories that I have actually never heard before. So be sure to stay tuned and check your favorite podcast listening up on both Tuesdays and Thursdays through May for twice a week inspiration and live performances. And if you're loving the twice a week format after May, there's a good chance we may keep it going. So let us know. Okay, now on to today's conversation. So every once in a while, you meet someone with an incredible vision, and it's almost like they see into the future and know exactly what they want to make happen.

The problem is seeing isn't doing. And most people, even those with big, bold visions, never actually have the drive and the capability to make their ideas real. My guest this week, Laura Gassner-Otting, is one of those rare humans who actually not only sees the future, but creates it. Thrust into the world of presidential politics in her 20s, she found herself working in the White House before a series of events in no small part of her creation led her to the world of nonprofit search, where she launched and founded her own firm, grew it into a powerhouse in the space before selling it to focus on her next act. What is that next act? Well, turns out along the

way, having worked kind of at the highest levels of power and potential. She learned a ton about what truly makes people feel what she calls limitless, that sense of being utterly fulfilled and capable of anything. And her ideas, her strategies, her distillations, her awakenings are all in a really great new book, appropriately entitled Limitless, which focuses around an unusual word, consonants. We dive into that in our conversation today, along with Laura's kind of mesmerizing journey, her sense of unrelenting drive, her humility, her brilliance, and a perpetual willingness to both listen and lead, all in the name of making a difference and helping others rise, or to put it another way, of being limitless.

So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

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On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk.

We first met, I think, the first time when we spent like three intensive days together in Philly. Yes, at A-Listers. Right. And I was thinking about it. It's really funny because I read your book. I've known each other for, what, three years now? Yes. Two years, I think.

And I was remembering my first impression of you. And I remember that there were like 10 of us in a room, kind of like in this theater type of place in Philadelphia. And we were all working on our chops as speakers. We were acting like we knew what we were doing, but we were all so vulnerable. Okay. So it's interesting to hear you say that because I remember you, first know, first we all had to get up and like do our best four minutes or something like that. And, you know, I was like shaking. And I remember you getting up and I was like, oh my God, this woman is sort of like a power

house on stage, just like complete and utter confidence, which is really funny because knowing, you know, over a couple of years, there's this like really powerful duality that exists within you. Yeah. What you didn't realize was it was my only four minutes. I had a tight four. I only had four. That's all I had. It's like if it was 4.30, I was completely busted. I was done. That was it. All I had in me was I could speak the hell out of those four minutes, but that was it. Yeah. It's interesting because I have so many people who look at me and say, oh, well, you've got it all together. You figured it all out.

Everything's perfect. You've just got LGO magic. And none of us have any magic, right? We're all figuring it out as we go along. And I'm just always amazed that people see me as this, I don't know, like fully formed adult when really all I am is like five years ahead of them or 10 years ahead of them or five minutes ahead of them. And that's, that's really all, that's really all that any of us have is the, the sort of outside person and inside we're struggling to figure it all out. And I think the, what, what happens in between the

sort of inside person trying to figure it all out and the outside person that we see is where like the beauty of humanity is. It's like, that's like the struggle and the difficulty and the incompetence and the big, juicy, interesting life that we live. Yeah. Yet so many of us actually want to feel that or live in that place. Well, yeah, because it's scary. It's hard. It's super hard. We were talking about our teenage kids before we started recording. And I'm constantly struck by the fact that in school, our teenage kids have to live on the edge of their incompetence. Like at every single day, wherever they are in school, they are constantly learning a new thing they didn't know the day before. And as adults, as grownups, we get paid and promoted and praised

for living in the center of our excellence, doing the thing that we do well. And so we're not pushed out of that comfort zone. And I think that's where we grow. So, you know, for people who want to have, you know, a reinvention or, you know, to have a new adventure, we have to live on the edge of that incompetence. And I think that's kind of an exciting place to be sometimes. Yeah. Exc exciting and terrifying. But it's interesting that you brought up that in the context of kids too, because I agree. I think that that is the experience of a lot of kids. They're constantly, I mean, you're forced into beginner's mind because you just don't, there's so much more that you don't know. But at the same time, I feel like a lot of parents want to protect their kids from being

in that place because so much of the way that society judges success, even at the youngest age, especially in early academics, and this is what gets you into college and grad school and blah, blah, blah, is your grades. And if you let your kid sort of, if you create the space for your child to live at the edge of incompetence using your language on a persistent basis,

well, then maybe they're going to fail. Maybe they're going to stumble. Maybe they're not going to make the grade that would measure success the way the outside world says it should be measured and get into that next level the way that you're supposed to do. And I feel like as a parent, we're constantly dancing with this. Okay, so yes, I want to let my kid be in that place because that's how a well-rounded person becomes formed. But there's this whole other external pressure not to let that happen. Yeah. I talked to somebody when my kids were little and she said, well, I'm not a parachute parent. I'm a bulldozer parent. I don't just jump in when the kids are in trouble. I get out in

front of them to make sure there's never a problem. And I remember thinking, oh, those poor kids are going to be in therapy for the rest of their lives. The first time something goes wrong, they're not going to know what to do. And so I'm not saying that I like dangle my kids out over the edge of the boat and just like hope they can swim. But I do think that if you grow up thinking that failure is finale, that it is definitional and it's the end of the story, then you don't try things. And I think failure is, if we see failure more as fulcrum, as this moment of time when we can grow and we can change and it can affect our trajectory, then it allows us to look at failure as not the end of the line, but just one step in the discovery process. And so for me, as I sat down to write this book, I was really struck by the idea that it's this very definition

of good grades and the gold stars and other people's definition of success. That's really what got us into trouble in the first place. We have teachers at a young age who tell us, you're super argumentative, you should be a lawyer, right? Like I was told I was super argumentative and I should be a lawyer. And so in fourth grade, I spent the next 15 years forming an academic path that put me on the road to go to law school. Now you were a lawyer and you spent some time doing that. Maybe I'm a little smarter than you because I dropped out of law school after the first semester. Maybe I'm a little dumber because because I dropped out of law school after the first semester. Maybe I'm a little dumber because I couldn't figure out a way to make it work. I don't know.

But all I do know is that for both of us, it wasn't the right path. And it wasn't until we said, well, that's actually not my calling in life. That's not the thing that I want to do. That's not the purpose for which I'm on this earth, that we both shifted and said, there's got to be something else that's actually going to create happiness and allow our work to represent who we are as people. Yeah. No, it's a redefinition of success and a reframing of failure too. I remember hearing Sarah Blakely, who founded Spanx, share a story about how it was either once a week or every night, like her dad, like at the dinner table, would go around and ask each kid, what did you fail at today? Because he wanted to normalize the

experience of failure. Like, this is what we do. We try stuff and we're going to fail. And it is, it's so unusual, right? Because normally it's like, tell me what went well is sort of like the prompt that we're given. Yeah. I grew up in a house where I'd come home with a 98% and the question would be, well, where are the other 2%? I don't know. Clearly not on my report. So I guess I didn't do well. And it becomes this thing where we think anything that's not perfection is a failure. That's a tough way to live. That's a tough way to grow up. And if you are defining your success then by perfection as created by everyone else around you, this path that we're, you know, this myopic, unflinching, singular definition of success, that's, we're all going to be failures. That's why people are unhappy.

Yeah. So we know that there are high expectations academically. You grew up in Florida also, right? Yeah, I grew up in Miami. On the water? On the water, but everyone's on the water. I grew up in a very interesting high school. It was an exceptionally diverse high school. It was not a great neighborhood. We were the school that everybody lied about their address to not go to. We even went to other schools. I used to joke

around that our cheerleading uniforms came in four sizes, small, medium, large, and maternity. I mean, it was like, it was that kind of high school. I didn't really learn much, but boy, did I learn a lot about life. Like what? I learned how to talk to all kinds of different people from all different walks of life. You know, I know we spent a lot of time after Obama was elected saying that we're living in this post-race society, but Miami in the 80s, that was Scarface era. Our school was a third white, a third Latino, a third African-American. And of the Latinos, some were Cuban, some were Venezuelan, some were

Puerto Rican, some were Dominican. I mean, people were from everywhere. And it wasn't that we didn't see race. It was we saw race. It was actually part of your story. And so you got to learn about people and where they came from and what drove them and how everybody's home was so different and everyone's calling and the drive was so different. And it's probably why I ended up doing executive search because I was always fascinated by people and their story. And the fact that our, you know, our, their differences are what, our differences with each other are what make us interesting to each other. Yeah. So you go from there though, and you drop yourself into Austin, Texas. Yeah. That was culture shock. Like, I mean, you land in Austin and Austin's an interesting city in Texas too, because it's, you know, it's not like the rest

of Texas, but, but still it's like profoundly different from what you're describing as like where you came from. Yeah. So Austin is not like the rest of Texas, but still it's like profoundly different from what you're describing as like where you came from. Yeah. So Austin is not like the rest of Texas, but the people who go to your University of Texas come from the rest of Texas. So my very first day moving in, I got asked out to that weekend's football game by some sophomore. And he came to pick me up in my dorm room that Saturday and And he knocks on the door, and I open the door, and I'm there wearing my Texas t-shirt and shorts. And he takes one look at me. He's just horrified. He goes, well, I'll just wait in the hallway while you get ready. And I was like, what are you talking about? I am ready. And then I peeked my head into the

hallway, and I saw all these girls walking down the hall like Laura Ashley had thrown up all over them. They were just like flower dresses. And I didn't understand what was happening. I mean, it was complete and total culture shock to be this, you know, Miami girl raised by, you know, New York Jew parents, East Coast all the way, multicultural. And then I'm dropped in what felt like 1950s South. And it was just, it was so strange to me that it took some time to understand that when people say hi to you on the street, they're not after something. They're just friendly. People are just friendly in the South.

It was so strange. Yeah. Serious culture shock. Yeah. I mean, you know, you're from New York. I mean, it's the same thing. You travel to different places and you're like, what, what, what's happening? And it's so interesting. Like we're just so heads down so fast and, and almost like, you know, there's a dehumanizing element to it that when you get into a place where people like, where the pace drops, where

people look you in the eye, where people slow down, it's disconcerting almost. Yeah. It's almost anxiety provoking at start, at the start to have everybody be slower. Yeah. And then it feels more comfortable. The other day I was flying Philly. I was flying out of Philly. And I, for whatever reason, I got stuck in a window seat. I always like to be in the aisle seat on an airplane

because I'm a control freak. And even though I know that if the plane is going down, we're all dying in a fiery inferno, I still feel like it's like this illusion of control or something. At least you'll be able to run down the aisle. Right. As my hair is on fire, at least I'm like, you know, I don't know. I know it's completely a mental illness that I have about this, but it's my mental illness and I embrace it wholeheartedly. But I just happened to look out the window, and it was so pretty. It was one of those beautiful days, and we were taking off, and I could see, you know, as you know, I row. And I could see rowers along the river, and I could see the downtown all glistening in the sunset and i just i i i just almost like lost my breath for a moment because i was listening to you know beautiful music i think it was james taylor and it just i just felt so

connected to the world around me in that moment and i turned to look down the aisle because i had one of those like are you guys seeing this like this is amazing and every other person in the aisle was doing in the row was doing exactly what I always do, which is like face in the screen. And I just remember thinking, oh God, I gotta, I gotta stop and slow down a little and just take it all in this moment in time, this, this, this, this moment on earth. Yeah, no, so agree. I just read, uh, Oliver Sacks had, uh, an essay posthumously, um, published in The New Yorker that was all about this. And he wrote it, obviously, like more than four years ago because he passed in 2015. But it was all about just, I think so many people are talking about this, but his frame was really interesting to me because we talk so much about what having our head in our devices is doing to us, but we talk less about what it's taking from us. And that is our ability to actually know ourselves

by spending more time in solitude, more time in contemplation, more time just simply in stillness and observing. I feel that pain too. And I'm like, I really try and have a practice that pulls me out of that. But yeah, I sit on the subway in New York City and every once in a while, I'll do like a little quick test

and I'll just look down the whole car and I'll count the number of people that are on their devices. And I'm like, it's averages about 90% is that they spend the entire time just looking down. And besides the chiropractic damage being done to the neck of your neck and your body, it is, yeah, I wonder what that's taking from us increasingly. Yeah, I think we're missing a lot. And yet there's this tyranny of busyness that we feel compelled that we have to empty our inboxes and answer every text and keep scrolling on social media because we'll miss something. Yeah. So in Texas, you're studying government too, from what I remember. Yes, because I thought I was going to be the first female senator from

the great state of Florida. That was my plan. I grew up in a house where my mom was a Democrat and my dad was a Republican. They're both still alive and they're both still Democrat and Republican. In fact, they've gone further into their holes on either side of the spectrum. And this was back in the day when after the six o'clock news, the local anchor would get on and they would do like a little editorial, like a little op-ed. And so they would do that. And then we would talk about it at the table. And it was also during the time of the Iran hostage crisis.

And I remember for whatever reason just being righteously indignant. And I remember counting every day I would sit at the table and I would talk about it. It was, you know, 157 days, 158 days. I was I was so upset about the fact that I'd been sold this bill of goods, that we were the greatest nation on Earth. And yet we couldn't do anything about this. It just didn't it just didn't make any sense in my 16 year old brain. And I thought that the way to create the solution to the problems was to be a politician. You know, we were sold. Ronald Reagan comes in. He frees the hostages like the politicians are the ones was to be a politician. You know, we were sold, Ronald Reagan comes in,

he frees the hostages, like the politicians are the ones who make the change. And I thought, oh, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna solve all the problems. That's gonna be it. And I, of course, had already been told I'd be a lawyer, right? That was my route.

And so political science was what was most interesting to me. Okay, so now I have to ask about something else because you grew up in a household where your parents have very strong political opposite views, and yet you grew up in a household. Tell me about that a bit. Well, what's actually even more interesting about that is that when I first thought I was going to register to vote,

I actually thought I was a Republican, which, you know, you knowing me now is completely shocking because I've really never been a Republican a day in my life. But I just, you know, you grow up in a house and you think the world is the way that your parents see the world. And it was just this really sort of interesting moment in time where like the solutions were being created when Ronald Reagan came into office. And when you're young and you don't realize what he's doing is something that's not actually what you consider to be a solution when you're an adult. You know, you have that moment where you're like, oh, everything I knew up until this moment was wrong. and it happened for me because when I got to college, I remember walking down the main drag at Austin

where the bookstores are and things like that and I saw somebody sleeping on the street and I remember turning to my roommate being like, why is that guy sleeping outside? She just looked at me, she's like, you idiot, he's homeless. You didn't see that growing up in Miami. You just didn't see homeless people. We had, you know, tent city and we had refugees and we had people from all sorts of other

places, but they were somewhere. They weren't everywhere. And that to me was like, it was like I had like a mini stroke when I saw that person. And I was just, I couldn't understand why that existed, like why there wasn't something that somebody could do to change that. And it just felt wrong. And then I started doing research and then I realized, well, I'm just, you know, I was just growing up in a privileged household where I never had to think about those sorts

of things. And it really affected who I was at my core so that, you know, everything I've done since I think has been working to ensure that there is safety net in the world and opportunity and access for people. making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.

Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. I'm curious too. I mean, what, what it was like for you to grow up in a household, seeing that two people could build a life together with profoundly different views on the world? you're right, I'm wrong. It was more, I think they probably had more in common than they didn't. And I think my dad put fiscal issues before social issues. And I think my mom put social

issues before fiscal issues. And it was at a time in politics when Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill would argue all day long. And then they go out for a beer afterwards. So it's a different time. You know, Ronald Reagan, whether or not you agree with his politics, the man had such reverence for the office of the presidency. He never took his jacket off. He never took a suit coat jacket off in the Oval Office. That's a different time than today. And I think I grew up just as a democracy nerd. Like I believe wholeheartedly in the bully pulpit of the presidency. I believe in the bully pulpit of leadership. I believe in responsibility of a leader, whether they're leading from the front, the side, the back, wherever, that there is a sort of an example that they set and the way that they live in the world and the way that they manifest their values that I think is, it's contagious to people around them. And I really feel like that's, that that matters.

Yeah. So you went to college studying this really from a place of sort of pursuing the noble path, pursuing what you saw as a profession that was steeped in dignity and service and citizenship. Yes. And then you got your grad degree also at GW. Yes. Although I was in the White House before that. So I actually got the grad degree in politics, mostly because I was already doing it. And I knew as a woman, I should probably have some letters behind my name. And so it seemed like the easiest, most expeditious path at that point. So you go from UT then to, well, take me- Right to law school. Right. So you go right into law school. But as you said, that wasn't a real long career in law school.

It was not a long or an exceptional career in law school. So I went to college when I was 17. I skipped kindergarten. I knew how to stack blocks. I think my parents were just eager to get us out of the house, so I skipped kindergarten. And then graduated from college in three and a half years because I had a bunch of AP courses, and that's just how they do it at University of Texas. So I graduated in December, and I went to University of Florida in the January class because I knew I wasn't going to get into Harvard, and I figured if I want to run for office in Florida, I should get an in-state degree. So I went to the best law school in the state. And the January class is, it's a non-traditional class. So you have a lot of people that are

coming at different points in their life. They're coming back into academics. And I was 20 years old and I was looking down the aisle, you fellow students, and they're all showing pictures of kids and grandkids to each other, and thinking to myself, I've made a huge mistake. I don't belong here. This just doesn't make any sense for me. And I was the first kid on the first day that was called out for the Socratic method in criminal law, and it was- I remember that day myself. Oh, yes, yes. Or sorry, it was in torts.

And I went about 40 minutes before I just started crying. I was, there was like, I don't even remember what the case was, but it was about somebody, some kid who hurt his leg and something and was like the store owner responsible. And it was brutal. It was just awful torture. Yeah, I remember for me, it was brutal. It was just awful torture.

Yeah. I remember for me, it was contracts. Yeah. We had the classic, you know, like 1L where it was all about bringing you to your knees. Yes. Like showing you how little you knew so that they could strip you down. And then hopefully, you know, really good professors would end up like then rebuilding you with sort of like new tools and ideas and processes that didn't always happen.

It didn't always happen. So I got about six weeks into the semester and it was not happening. The rebuilding part was nowhere on the horizon. But I was dating this terrible, terrible guy who threw my bike in the back of his I iroc z one day to give me a ride home because it was raining uh and he said before i drop you back at your apartment i want to pick up some material from this guy who's running for president and i because you know back this is before the internet right so like if you wanted to learn about a candidate you had to go to their local strip mall you know local campaign office and actually get some pamphlets. And I remember thinking, governor who? From where? Arkansas? Like not a chance in hell. And we walk into this little campaign office that was maybe like twice the

size of the studio. And there in the corner was this little black and white TV of then governor Bill Clinton talking just so passionately about this idea of community service in exchange for college tuition. And it was like a lightning bolt hit me. And instead of feeling like I need to be the one to solve the problems, I need to be the one to be the helper, I thought that needs to happen, right? What can we do to make that happen? And so I started volunteering on the campaign. And it was just one of those quirks of timing where about three or four weeks later, all four principals, Bill and Hillary and Alan Tipper Gore came through this tiny Gainesville, Florida, and we got 36,000 people to show up at this rally. And so the national campaign office

was like, who are those volunteers? We got to get them on board. And getting on board meant basically you got all the ramen soup you could eat and you got to eat cold pizza and sleep on high school, you know, in high school gymnasiums. And we threw rallies all over the country. And one thing led to another, he got elected and I ended up in the White House that helped create the AmeriCorps National Service Program. So you end up leaving law school, going out onto the road, working on the campaign. And I guess it would have been in your early 20s then, basically ending up in the White House. Yeah, so I walked into the White House

on inauguration day, 1993, and I was just shy of my 22nd birthday. What's that like? Overwhelming, scary, exciting. I was wearing my mother's hand me down suits. So big shouldered. I was too young to know that it was insane. I mean, I think I was really lucky in that I wasn't old enough to realize just how scary and how big of a deal it was. So I had a huge amount of ignorance that I could rest in, which was very lucky for me because I was scared out of my mind as it was. So what did you end up doing there? So when I was on the campaign trail, I was excited about this idea of community service in exchange for college tuition.

And when I got to know a guy along the campaign trail, a friend of mine, who became the person who called all the volunteers to come in and work there. And I said, well, I want to work in the first lady's office. I want to work in political affairs or I want to work in national service. Those are the three things I'm super interested. And I had, you know, I had gotten on the auto train from Gainesville and brought my car up and I was living in this basement apartment for, you know, with me and the rats and the cockroaches for like $250 a month. And my parents in this like moment of flexibility that they had never shown before and had never shown after said, we will give you six months. And if you can find a paying job in six months, you can stay. And if

not, you're going to come back and finish law school. So as you can imagine, I was incentivized, I was incentivized to find it. So he calls me the first day and he says, I've got a, I've got a, you know, a volunteer job for you to come in and into political affairs and answer the phones. And Rahm Emanuel, who's the mayor of Chicago, was the head of political affairs. And so we go and there's this like really big, complicated phone system, right? There's like 18,000 buttons. And it was like nothing ever, like a switchboard. So I go in the first day and the very first phone call, hello, this is Mr. Emanuel's office and it's his mother. So I don't know what

to do because if I put the phone down and I hang up on her, that's a problem, right? But I couldn't figure out how to press hold. It was the very first call. So I kind of gingerly put the phone down next to the cradle and I tiptoe into his office and he's sitting there, his feet are up on the desk. Again, this is like the day after the inauguration. His feet are up on the desk and he is flipping through the clips, which are back then there'd be somebody in the middle of the night that would go through all the media and they would get all the relevant articles and they'd mimeograph them. They'd photocopy them and they would distribute hundreds of copies into every single office. Now, every White House transition, the former administration staffers play a prank on the incoming administration staffers. And

what the people after Clinton did when George W. was coming to the office, they actually took the W keys off of all the keyboards, right? Like that was the prank. But when H.W. Bush left the White House, the prank they played on the Clinton people was they took the extension numbers off of all the keyboards, right? Like that was the prank. But when H.W. Bush left the White House, the prank they played on the Clinton people was they took the extension numbers off of all the phones. So for the first three or four days, everybody that was running the administration in the head of the free world was like 1-0-0-0. Hi, this is political affairs.

Who are you? Like, we didn't know who anybody was. So I could not hang up the phone on Mrs. Emanuel. So I walk in, he's sitting there. I tell him and he says, oh, tell her I'm really busy. I'm like, oh, okay. So I sort of gingerly walk back out. Mrs. Emanuel, I'm sorry, but he's, you know, and I'm thinking to myself, that's, it's not okay. Right? I mean, if my mom called, I would have been like, mom, oh my God, I'm in the White House. I can't believe it. And it was very sad, right? It was disheartening because I thought everybody was there for this great purpose and we were all excited and we were all idealists

and we all couldn't believe we were there. That was a moment where I thought, I don't know that I'm cut out for this. I don't want to do this. And I called my friend who placed me there and I said, I don't want to go back. If you've got something in the first lady's office or national service, yes, but I don't want to do this enough to work for that kind of person. I'm sure he's a perfectly nice guy. I don't really know him. That was my only encounter with him. But it said something to me about character that I found super unsettling. So then the next day, he called me up and he said, National Service needs somebody. So then I spent six weeks sitting in the Office of National Service in a corner doing data entry all day long, data entry all day long.

And at the end of the six-week mark, the man who ran the office, Eli Siegel, who was the guy who ran the 1992 campaign, he was a genius in political campaigns, came up to me and he said, hi, I've seen you. You've been working really hard here. You've been here for the last few weeks, right? And I said, yeah. he was. Of course, I knew who he was. It sort of renewed my spirit. It renewed my belief that there were good people that could be in politics. And he said to me, I've got a question. You want to do something else other than data entry? And I was like, yes, please. He said, it occurs to me that when John F. Kennedy created the Peace Corps, it was successful from the very first day. And when Lyndon Johnson created the war on poverty, it was a failure from before it even started. Can you go figure out why? okay, that's, you know, simple, insane, insane. So I basically packed everything into my backpack and started running out of the office. And I went to the library of Congress and started flipping the card catalog, you know, it was a long time ago. And, and I, and I had to figure out this, this answer. And I knew that the only opportunity that I would have to get myself on staff to actually

get a paid job and not have to go back to law school was to knock this out of the park and write an amazing report that really gave insight into the ideas behind why the Peace Corps was a success and why the war on poverty was a failure. And I knew that even more than that, I had to show Eli that I wasn't just in it for the fancy job and the blue pass to get into the West Wing, like so many other people were, but that I had to stand out among the rest of the bright young things in the office by showing how much I really deeply cared about the idea of national service and why this mattered so much to me. He needed to hear my story. He needed to understand that there was something behind this that was truly my calling and why I was so connected to this work. And so

I went and I did the report and I gave him the report. And then that day, as I was walking out of the old executive office building, I saw a sign-up form for giving blood. And there were four spots in every 15 minutes. And Eli was third of four in one of them, and the fourth was blank. So I immediately signed my name to give blood. I figured I would quite literally have a trapped audience, a captured audience next to me who couldn't move because he had an IV in his arm. Now, here's the thing about the story. I have this condition called

vasovagal syncope. And vasovagal syncope means that when your body gets in sort of high-risk situations, you tend to pass out. And that usually means if you're standing in the hot baking sun, if you're dehydrated, if somebody comes at you with a needle, if you give blood. But I signed up anyway because as you said, I'm the kind of person who when I see, I go for it. If I see something that I really want, I'll go for it. And when I was literally laying on the cot next to him, bleeding for this job, I was able to talk to him, not just about the report, but why I was there. He was curious about people and he wanted to know my story and

how I got there. And I told him about it. And then that of course led into having a little bit of a conversation about what was in the report. And that's how I got to know him. And that's how he got to know me. And that's how I ended up with my first job in the White House. And that was working on AmeriCorps. That was working on AmeriCorps. And since that time, over a million individuals have served making their community a better place and earning college tuition in return. And it is one of the proudest things that I've done. And you never went back to law school. And I never went back to law school. While I was there, as I said, I figured I should probably have some letters behind my name. It was just always something that I thought I needed to have.

So I got a graduate degree in political management, which officially makes me a spin doctor. I have a master's in bullshit. And now I'm a professional speaker. Right, which is as useful as most degrees these days. I don't really know. Not to knock education. I don't know that it's that different than the law. I'm not really sure. I know, I'm thinking, I spent three years in law school, I think I have the same degree, actually. You know, what it did is it taught me how to think. And I think that any education should teach you how to think. The education that teaches you how to perform, I think, is less useful. Yeah.

It's so interesting you say that because that was the primary reason I went to law school. I actually blew off most of my classes in undergrad. And I was really curious what I was truly capable of. And I figured I had no intention of – I had no idea whether I would actually ever practice law after law school. But I was like, this is something that's going to really push me. And at a minimum, hopefully it will give me a framework to understand how to create rational arguments, how to think, and maybe even how to speak a little bit, you know, and it did some of that for sure. Like then going out into the practice actually was a whole completely different world, but yeah, it's, it's interesting to sort of go in with that objective in mind. Yes. So when you come out of there and, but I'm also really curious because, so you're somebody who up until that point, it seems like literally like you open your eyes, you see something that you want, you do it, you get it and it happens bigger and it happens faster. And no matter what, it seems like, I'm sure you stumbled up,

I'm sure you tripped and failed along the way. But like, if there's something, it doesn't matter how big, you will just embrace it. You will say yes and you will work until it's done. Which makes me curious about you wondering, literally sitting in like the White House at the age of like 22, 23 years old, saying, oh, for me to succeed, I need some letters behind my name. Yeah, because I'm like everyone else, a big giant bag of insecurities. Like we all look at other

people and go, oh, they know what they're doing. Anything they do, anything they touch turns to gold. They're great. And I could probably go back and tell the story of my career in a way that makes it seem planful and strategic and smart, but it's not. I mean, even this book that I just wrote, I didn't mean to write this book. It was an accident. The TEDx talk that I gave, which put me on the path to speaking, which is how I met you, was an accident. Starting my own business was an accident.

I just, I think that there are things that we do in our life because we can't not do them because we're so curious about finding the answer. You know, I did your spark type, which I love and I'm an advisor and a scientist, right? I love to see the greatness in people and help them see it in ways that they maybe haven't seen it before

in a way that they can actually believe in and act on it. But I also love finding out the story and figuring out the solution and sort of pushing the puzzle all the way to the end. And so when I do that, if you don't see failure as finale and you see it as fulcrum, every time you get to the end of the road, you can think, well, does the road end or do I just need to learn how to hike now? Right? Like the pavement is finished. So now do I go over the grass? Do I go over the wall? How do I figure out how to get to the next place? Because you know, there's another road out there, but the world doesn't stop, right? It's not a flat earth and it keeps going, but you just don't know how to get there. And so you just have to figure out what else is in your toolbox at that point.

Yeah. I love that. It's kind of interesting too, because you've used the word failure and fulcrum a number of times now, but also planted the seed of the idea that a quote successful life does not have to be a methodically planned life. In fact, very often, it's the life that creates and holds space for serendipity along the way. Yes. And it's funny, I was guessing you were saying that I had a flashback to that shared experience. Like it was literally the week before graduating law school, sitting in the dean's office who I'd become friendly with. He was a very accomplished man before that. He was like the chancellor of schools in New York City. And him looking me in the face and saying, look, and I was very fortunate. I did very well. I graduated well in law school.

And he's like, you know, the fact that I'm sitting here now, he's like, none of my career. He was in his late 60s, early 70s at that point. Actually, he said, there's nothing in my career that I planned to be the way that it has been. So he's like, he literally told me, he's like, you're about to go out onto a path. Just stay open because you have no idea what's going to come your way. And that always stayed with me. Even though I had literally just spent a lot of money and worked all this time to go on a very specific path. And I wonder sometimes whether him saying that to me at that moment in time was one of the seeds

that was planted that allowed me a couple of years, four years into five years into practice to be like, you know what? He gave you permission. Yeah. Like this is, it's okay to make a left turn here. And I wonder, I often think about people who touched down in your life and kind of just plant the seed of to look at things differently and to be open to different things. I can tell you who that person was in my life, actually. So when I was at University of Texas, I was fortunate enough to take a class from Sarah Weddington, who was the woman who argued Roe v. Wade in front of the Supreme Court at the age of 27. Now, she told us this, and it was a course on leadership. And she told us the story on the very first day where she said, now, do you know why I was the one who argued Roe v. Wade? And of course, we're all thinking, well,

because you were probably the best lawyer out there. Of course, this is- At 27. Right. Who knows, right? And she says, no, it turns out that when I graduated from University of Texas Law School back in the early 70s, she said, nobody was hiring lady lawyers in the state of Texas, right? Like this was not, I could not find a job. And my other lady lawyer friends couldn't find a job either. So we all banded together and we started doing pro bono legal services work. And in one day walks Jane Roe because she can't afford anybody else either. So she walks in because we're the only people she

can afford, the cheapest, most proximate heartbeats with a law degree, essentially. And then they argue the case and they appeal the case and appeal the case and all the way to the Supreme Court. And she says, and the reason that we won was not because we were the best lawyers and certainly not because we were the most well-funded, but because we knew that in order to win, we had to learn how the game was played. And we learned every single rule about all of it so that we could have every kind of argument and procedural argument, all the other legal stuff that I didn't stick around long enough in law school to learn about. But she said, we figured out how the game was played. And once we knew how the game was played, we understood how we could run the gauntlet and we could run circles around

all of those good old boys. And that to me, that really planted a seed that fast forward many years later when I was sitting in that big traditional executive search firm doing big traditional executive search work and finding myself at odds with sort of the purpose and the calling of the firm. And we could talk about that. I realized that in order for me to figure out how to do it right, I had to figure out the rules of the game. And once I figured out the rules of the game, I realized that I could play the game better. And that's how I became an entrepreneur. So let's fill in that gap. Yeah.

So you end up basically going off and going to the world of executive search with a focus more on service-oriented and nonprofit industry. Yeah, because I left the White House at the age of 25, 26. I was 25 years old. It was December of 1996. And I had really no discernible skills or talents whatsoever. But I had a Rolodex that could choke a horse. So what do you do with that? And I still had all the idealism I could eat. So what do you do with that? You become a

headhunter. You take your Rolodex and you match really amazing people with really amazing causes to make the world a better place. Yeah. And at the same time, I mean, it's interesting too, because you keep dropping into places where there's a mission, but there's also a culture. And you don't suffer a culture that wars with your values. It seems like that has been a common thing. Yeah. And sometimes to my detriment, you know? I mean, that's, well, either the world bends to your will or you have to bend the world to yours. And years after

starting my own firm, I ran into that boss from the White House, Eli Siegel. And he said, did you always know you were an entrepreneur? Because I did. And I remember thinking, I don't know that that's a compliment. I'm not entirely sure that's a compliment. You know, our mutual friend, Scott Stratton likes to say that entrepreneur is Latin for bad employee. And I kind of wonder if maybe that's what he was saying, but he was a lovely, a lovely man. And I actually dedicated my first book to him. And I sit on the board now of a fellowship that was created in his name after he passed away very early from mesothelioma. But he was the kind of person who, he was a real citizen leader, right? He was somebody who never ran for public office, but he changed the world in ways that we don't even realize. Like he was the person in the 1960s who rewrote the rules of how the Democratic National Committee comes together and appoints and nominates their candidates. That's a pretty incredible thing, but he's not a household name. And so I learned from him that leadership is not only the person who's front and center in the middle of the stage, but also somebody who could be in the back.

And so this idea of culture really came from being taught early on by leaders like Sarah Weddington or Eli Siegel, that there were all kinds of ways to lead. And we don't know their names, but they changed the world in amazing places or in amazing ways. And so I really believe that culture is something that you help create and facilitate, but that you're not the sun in the center of the solar system of the culture. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

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On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. So then when you eventually leave this search firm that you're at to start your own thing,

which turns into its own substantial venture and grows over, I think it was close to 15 years. 15 years. What's important to you about that? So when I was at Big Search Firm and I wanted to go to the best in the business, the people who did this work the way that I thought was excellent. And so I went to a place called Isaacson Miller. And this new book is actually dedicated to Arnie Miller. So I've had two major mentors in my life and each of my books are dedicated to them, which I guess says a lot also about sort of who I am and what I think about leadership as well.

I thought I was going to a firm that was using the lever of talent to make the world a better place. And they were. Except I also realized partway through that every time I went to meet with a client, I was sitting on one side of the table and they were sitting on the other side of the table. And on the other side of the table with them was curing cancer or feeding the poor or saving the environment or some cause that I thought was really valuable. And I thought we were on the same dirt. I was serving both my client and their cause that I loved, and I was also serving my bosses and the bottom line of the firm. And the way the firm was set up is the way most big professional services firms are set up. The people who are doing the on-the-ground work are incentivized to spend the most amount of time and energy on the biggest

clients, right? The ones who pay the biggest bills. And I understand it, it totally makes sense. But what happens, I think, unwittingly is that then the last 5% of my time usually ends up getting siphoned off to the smallest clients. And frankly, the ones for whom the fees that they're paying are the hardest to come by and the ones that mean the most. And I just got to a point where I felt like finding the chief strategy officer of a major international foundation was a whole lot easier than finding a fundraiser for a local domestic violence shelter. And I didn't feel like I should be charging way more money to the former than the latter. But in fact, it actually meant more, the money meant more to the domestic violence. I mean, it was more painful for them to pay it. And it just, it didn't seem

fair that they were getting the last 5% of my time because of the way that we were sort of perversely incentivized inside to pay different amounts of attention to different clients. And so I had this moment where I went into the big bosses and I was like, we could do this differently. And I sort of had this like Jerry Maguire moment of rage. And I wrote this manifesto and I was basically told, yeah, no, thank you. You could keep doing it our way, which works really well, or you could move on. around that long in the nonprofit sector. So it was just the people who ran the firm who were very good and very smart and super dedicated to helping the world just took what worked for the for-profit sector and put it into the business model for the nonprofit sector. And it just, it didn't work for me and my values because I wanted to be on the same side of the table as my clients. And so I just, I had this moment of rage. And when I figured out the rules of the game, I realized I's not the game I want to play anymore. It was arbitrary. Like, why are we charging one-third

first year's cash compensation to these clients when the clients are all so different? It just didn't make any sense to me. So I started my own thing because I couldn't not start my own thing. I just, I saw a clear way that it should be done, that it could be done better and smarter and with more profit and with more authenticity and integrity. And once I, you know, the scientist, once I saw the solution, I could no longer work the problem the other way anymore. Yeah, no, that makes sense. It's like once you wake up to it, until and less than until you do something about it, it forever taunts you. Yeah, you can't unsee it. You can't unknow it.

And then if you're not part of the solution, you're like complicit in the problem. And I just, I couldn't be complicit in the problem. Right. So you got on your own, start your own firm. Yes, I had a six-week-old baby. Perfect timing. So there I was in the attic of my house

with my six-week-old baby and my Dalmatian. And I called the firm the Nonprofit Professionals Advisory Group because I had no idea what I was going to do when I left that firm 11 months pregnant, you know, just a little time earlier. But I knew I was going to stay in the nonprofit space. I knew I would do things at the professional level. I knew I wanted to be advising, which, you know, spark type, I'm an advisor. And I didn't want people to think it was just me. So I was going to be a group. So yeah, that's how I named this firm,

the worst named firm in the history of the universe, the nonprofit professional advisory group. But coming from a marketing background, sort of like NPAC sounds like so many other sort of government organizations. It's awful, yes. But this ends up being successful. And this ends up being your, like, supporting you and the family and being your devotion, your career for a decade and a half of your life.

Yes. And serving so many people in so many different ways and so many organizations and being really powerful and profound. So fast forwarding 15 years, you know, like, this is such an entrenched part of not just what you do, but who you are. How do you make the decision after 15 years that it's time for you to exit the company that you've built? So I made the decision after 10 years. Okay. And it was here in New York City, actually. I was on my way up in the elevator to see a very wealthy and well-known, hedge fund magnet. And he wanted us to help find the head of his family philanthropy, his family foundation. And we sat in one of those like

Gordon Gekko offices where there's this enormous conference room table and you could look out over all of Central Park. And he had 15 staff members sitting around him. And they warned me on the way in, like, he may not pay attention. He may be looking at the 16 different screens in the middle of the market trading day. Don't be offended. I was like, all right, fine. No problem. And why can't we sit down? And he says to me, well, I'd like to find somebody to run my family foundation. I've got several other, you know, name drops, other billionaire hedge fund people here that have foundations and they're doing it. So I think I should probably do it too. Okay. And he says, and you know, I mean, I'm getting a little bit older, so we should probably give money to a hospital so I can get some better care. And my kids are getting a little bit older.

And so we should probably give some money to some colleges so that they get into the places we want. So can you help me find somebody to do that? And I stood up and I stuck my hand out and I said, no, I think you probably have about 15 lawyers outside the store who can probably do that, write those checks for you. You don't need us. Thank you very much. It's been wonderful to meet you. And every one of his staff members like took a collective breath in and just held it because they I don't think anyone has ever said no to him before. But I got to that point where I was like, no, this I could take your money.

I could do this in my sleep, but it's not interesting. And so he said, well, wait a minute. Well, what would you do if you were me? And I said, well, you know, in the research that we did about you before coming to meet you, I've learned two things. Number one, you are an exceptionally private person, which is also just because I couldn't find any information about him. And second, you care deeply about your kid's sports because he has outdoor hockey rinks in all of his houses around the world. So, you know, probably not going to give to the environment. But these are the two things I could find in my six minutes of Google searching in the elevator on the way up to his office. And I said, so, you know, what I would do is I would probably donate some money to a local hospital in partnership with the university

and create the world's foremost research institution on childhood sports concussions. And he looked at me and he said, yes, go find me someone to do that. And his whole staff exhaled. And then I said, you know, why don't I do this instead? Why don't I spend some time finding somebody who will spend more than six minutes with you to actually figure out what you want your legacy to be? And we can find

you that person. He was like, okay, great. And I walked out of his office, sealed the deal, signed the contract, everything's great. And I thought, I have got to get out of here. The fact that I just did that and it was easy and it was boring. And it wasn't that I got sick of pitching. It was that I got sick of winning because I had just done it at that point so many times. Our clients would say, oh, we've got a really unique problem. And I'd say, it's not unique. It's unique to you.

Not unique to me. After 10 years of doing it on my own and five years of doing it with the other firm, I had just seen every iteration of every problem at that point. And I just, I wanted to do something different. And what I'd learned about myself in those 10 years is that I actually didn't love search that much. I actually loved being an entrepreneur. I loved making things. I loved creating. I loved, I loved innovating. And I realized that as the CEO, it was my job to be 18 to 24 months ahead of the market. Like I had to figure out the solutions to problems before the market even realized the problems existed.

And I also then realized that my people, when they were really, really good, had to be delivering today, this week, this month. Maybe they were thinking about this quarter, but they were really worried about the report they were giving to the client this week. And the better I got at my work and the better they got at their work,

the more the firm thrived, but the further divorced I felt from the further alone I felt. And I realized that I like innovating. I like creating, but I actually like doing it with other people. And I like having the thrill of excitement of like the unknown, the edge of your incompetence,

like what's gonna happen over the next cliff. And once the firm got so big, we grew for a hundred percent every year for 10 years. There's, it gets harder and heavier to pull the firm over the next, the next hill of innovation. And once I realized that even though all of these folks wanted to come work in this crazy entrepreneurial magical mystery tour, they themselves weren't entrepreneurs. And when I realized that, I was like, oh, I got to do something else. Like I need a plan. And I knew it was going to take time. So we created this five-year plan for my exit, which was arduous and difficult, but resulted in me actually selling the firm to the great women who helped build it,

which I feel really wonderful about. And P.S., they're thriving. They're doing better than they were even doing when I was there. So I should have left earlier. Which is a testament to the five-year plan. Yes, yes. And the intelligence behind it. And I mean, during that time also, it's like you start to get lit up at different things. And speaking serendipitously kind of drops into this thing, which kind of like brings us full circle to us meeting and launches you into this new world, speaking and writing also. And it's kind of interesting because it drops into your lap too at a time where it sounds where you're far enough into life where there's a lot to reflect on.

And you can kind of look back and say, okay, so this is what I've created to date. You know, I'm entering the middle years of my life and there's still a whole lot left to come. You know, if I was going to be deliberate about what that looks like, staying open to serendipity, like what would I create now? And it's interesting to see that exploration reflected in your most recent book, Limitless, and sort of like re-examining this question of, you know, limitations in life. What does it look like when you try and remove them? And how would you redefine the way that you step out into and contribute and exist in the world if you could write the rules yourself? Yeah, because we're like, the limits that exist in life are often not necessarily real.

There are limits that we've perceived. I mean, there are real limits of economics of reality and all of that. I can't get my bank to take good karma in exchange for my mortgage, no matter how many times I tried. Even when I was doing search for the foundation of the guy who owned the bank down the street, I couldn't get them to take good karma in exchange for a mortgage. But it's understanding what those limits actually are. So this was the first time I actually thought, I'm going to be deliberate about what I want to do next, was during the sale process. And I spent

about a year towards the end of the sale process talking to lots of venture capitalists, thinking, I've been an entrepreneur multiple times over. I've helped create government programs and political programs and philanthropic programs in this company. And I know what it's like to be an entrepreneur. At the same time, I also can look at somebody and understack and size them up. And I can know if they're the one who's really got the stuff, right, to make the business plan come to life. I could probably be a pretty good venture capitalist. Like I thought that'd be a good thing to do. So I spent about a year interviewing with different venture capitalists and I got offered some pretty nice jobs. But I realized that even though I love the idea of venture capital, I didn't really want to

spend any time with the venture capitalists themselves. Their metrics of success and the culture that they uphold in their firm was not who I was. And it was the first time that I really thought, this is a thing I think I really want to do. And I pursued it in this super strategic way. And I was totally wrong. And at the same time, Tamsyn Webster, our mutual friend, asked me to do this TEDx talk. And I had done a lot of speaking on behalf of my firm in terms of, you know, pitching and presentations and workshops and conferences, but I'd never really performed a talk. And I didn't even understand the difference between speaking and performing. They were completely different skill sets and

energies and preparation. And she asked me to do this. And so my very first talk was that TEDx at the Boston Opera House in front of 2,600 people. And it was like 12 minutes, no notes, no net, go. Terrifying, completely terrifying. In fact, my sister flew in to watch it. And she said, I walked out and I looked up at the three mezzanines of people. And she said she thought I was going to pass out. I just like took a deep breath. And I hope that I would remember my first line. And I did. And it all poured out of me and it worked. I forgot some things. Of course, it wasn't perfect. I can't even look at it now. It's like it's so it's I'm so speaker voice because it was my very first. I mean, you'll you get this, right? You get in this place

where you're like, I need to say these lines exactly like this. And when you and I met, I had been speaking for just long enough that I knew that there was something in me where I could do it. And I didn't, as an introvert, I don't know if I like speaking, but I'm enjoying the mastery of the skill, right? I'm enjoying, this goes back to the scientist thing, like I want to solve the puzzle. When I was giving that TEDx, there was one moment where I said a line that was supposed to be funny and some guy at stage left laughed. And I was like, oh, I like that. I want more of that. It was instantaneously addictive. So I'm sort of exploring this idea now of what speaking would be and how do you embody that person and how do you perfect that craft? Yeah.

And it's interesting for me to see just what you have now created over the last two, three years, which is a full-time traveling around the world career, keynoting on stages of all sizes, especially in the context of you, you know, like I happen to know, like your favorite thing is to basically like hang out on your couch with like your kids and your dog and just like not be around any other human being. I have very few friends actually, and I like it that way. Right, and yet you're out on the road

in front of like massive crowds on a regular basis. And it's interesting to, and I completely get how that duality exists and it's actually completely natural. And so many of us speakers are introverts. That is fascinating to me. Yeah, because I am very much wired the same way. I'm a complete home buddy.

What makes you then want to sort of reflect on everything now and decode a new lens on success in the world and share it in the form of a book. It's another accidental thing. I mean, the first book I wrote was about transitioning from corporate to nonprofit work because frankly, I got a phone call one day from the editors of Kaplan Publishing who said, hi, we have a series about going from nursing into, or going to nursing, into going into teaching, and we want to do one about going into nonprofits. And do you want to write it?

And the way that they found me was because they saw a blog post that I wrote on my own website, which was like three or four paragraphs. And they were like, she seems like she knows what she's talking about. We should hire her. And they sent me a check for an advance and they gave me six months and I had to give them 80,000 words.

And that's just a testament to like, if you think that you know something, don't wait for someone else to give you permission to know it. You just tell people you know it. It turns out that because I told the world I was an expert, I got to write a book in which now I can tell the world I'm an expert, right? Because it started by me saying, what is the thing that I think I know? Maybe I don't know it better than anyone else on earth, but I know it. I know it deep in my bones.

I can write about it. I can be an expert on the subject. So that's how I wrote the first one. And then this one, ironically, I've been on stage just talking about confidence and competence and finding your voice, your leadership voice. And I was feeling not very confident because even though I have letters after my name, I don't have a PhD. I'm not a neuropsychologist. I don't have a whole background that is talking about the brain chemistry of how

you do this. I just know it because I've spent 20 years interviewing thousands of leaders at these major crisis points in their career. Yes, to go into the nonprofit sector, but they came from corporate, from government, from nonprofits alike. So I felt like I should write a book. And so I called Rohit Bhargava at Idea Press and I said, I think I want to write this book about confidence. And he said, well, we'd love for you to write that book. We'd love for you to do it with this imprint, but we're actually doing this guidebook series. And we wonder if you might write that book first about finding work with purpose. So I started writing the book thinking, all right, well, my old book's out of print. I should probably do this. It's like 20,000 words. So I can take my 80,000 words and I can just condense it down to like coffee with an expert. And I get a few weeks into it and he

says, well, it's all well and good. But with my publisher hat on, you could sell more books if you also talked about finding purpose outside of just the nonprofit sector. He's like, certainly you can find purpose that way, right? And I was like, oh, of course. Of course you can. And so I started writing that book about sort of this higher idea of purpose and calling and what it means to be happy in your career based on these 20 years and these thousands of people that, you know, when I interviewed were all at the top of their game and they were all super successful, but they weren't all really happy. And I was reflecting on the difference between success and happiness. And even me, I was successful at the big traditional firm, but I wasn't happy.

I was successful when I ran my own firm, but I wasn't necessarily happy. And in each of those moments, I had to make specific changes so that I could enjoy the success that I'd created and the platform and the flexibility that it gave me and the choices that I had. And so the book ended up sort of ballooning into this bigger thing. And I was going back and forth with the editor trying to figure out how to compress it back into this guidebook format. Chapter one, problem, solution. Chapter two, problem, solution. Chapter three, problem, solution. And it turns out that purpose and happiness and calling cannot be compressed. Like you cannot, you cannot force it to behave. It's going to be what it wants to be. And so I called him up and I said, I'm throwing

up the white flag. I'm not your person. I'm not your author. You got to give this book to someone else and I'll figure it out. And he's like, yeah, you're right. This is not the book for you. You should write it as its own book, as a big idea book, and we should do it on its own next April in hardback. And I almost dropped the phone. I was like, what do you mean? Because that wasn't even the book that I meant to write. So I called Clay Hebert, our friend, in a panic. And I said, I don't know what to do. And he goes, well, what do you want people to feel like after they've read this book? And I said, I want them to be limitless. I want them to finally feel like they can remove all the limits of everybody else, that everyone else, all the expectations and definitions of success that everyone else has put upon them throughout

their whole lives. And I want them to just live their own lives. So he's like, you want them to be limitless, ignore everybody, carve their own path and live their best life. And I was like, yes. So the book went within a 45 minute conversation with him from the non-obvious guy to purpose, doing work that matters to limitless, to ignore everybody, carve your own path and live your best life, which changed. He's amazing. And so like at the single 45 minute conversation changed the tone and the cadence and the tenor of the book in a way that in this completely meta way, unlimited me, right? Like I became limitless to write this book in a way that actually poured out of me. So it took, you know, it took so long to get the other one into this horrible position. And then this just, it was like three weeks later and it was done. It just, it was, it was, everything was

aligned, right? I was in consonants. It all made sense. Yeah. And that word that you just used really is at the heartbeat of both that experience you just described and also the book and the idea, like the big idea. And it's not a word, consonants is not a word that is in most people's vocabulary. It's not.

And it's interesting because I, you know, when I was doing executive search, I would, and it's so interesting that you, that you say that like in each iteration of my career, it was sort of culture and values that was driving, you know, my excitement and energy towards what I was doing. I, you could find somebody who on paper was qualified for, for the job, but they weren't consonant with the organization. They didn't fit their culture. And I learned, especially in running my own firm, that I could hire people who were excellent at the work, but who they just, they were like organ rejection when they would come to work for us because they cared about different things. You know, they prioritized their income over the, you know, the excellence for the client. And income matters, but good enough was never going to be good enough for us because I felt like, you know, we did the search for the executive

director of the ACLU of Missouri about three months before the Ferguson riots happened. Now, if we placed the wrong person in that position, that would have been a problem, right? The stakes about what we were, the stakes for what we were doing were so high. And we had no idea Ferguson was going to happen, but it could always happen, right? Like you never know. So it wasn't just putting the right person in the position. It was making sure that you didn't put the wrong person who would actually be right somewhere else and could be amazing somewhere else. So we, the culture and the fit and the consonants for who we hired and how they fit into where we were and how all their energies were aligned, moving towards the same purpose

mattered so much in everything that we were doing. And so it's been a word that I've used a lot. And it's not a word that a lot of people use, but as soon as they hear it, they're like, oh yeah, I know that. It's just not in their common lexicon. Yeah. I mean, I think probably the word that I tend to use a lot, which in my mind, my brain translates to consonants, is alignment. Yes. Which is, but it's the same notion. It's the idea that there is stuff that's native within us and there are puzzle pieces out in the world which fit that which is native within us really well. That doesn't mean that there aren't changes that might be constructive to make or things to explore within us.

But still, it's, you know, it's less about fitting in and it's more about like finding, you know, like where is, where is the negative puzzle piece to our positive, you know, like shape. And, and, and when that happens, you know, you can work fiercely, but it doesn't, it feels different. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I hate the like, oh, follow your passion and you'll never have to work a day in your life. And I wanna work. I love my work.

Right, and it's the effort that makes stuff matter. Yes, yes. So, you know, the book was originally, like when we were shifting the whole thing around, it was gonna have consonants in the title. And then we realized like, while I can own the word consonants, no one's gonna buy a book with a word on the cover that they don't know.

Mark it ahead. Okay. It's got to be something better. But the idea of consonants, I mean, it's harmony, right? And like, if you think about a choir singing and you have your alto and your soprano and your tenor and your bass, if they're all singing at the same volume all the time, it doesn't sound very good, but they're all going to be different. And so it's the same idea behind this idea of consonance is that, you know, and I break it down in the book as these four C's of calling, connection, contribution, and control, that at every age and at every life stage, they're going to be different. And they're going to be different for everybody, but they're also going to be

different for you throughout your life. And what I love about the idea is that, you know, if you would have said to me, what's the advice that you would give your younger self? I would say, well, if I were giving myself, my younger self advice about what I, you know, on a podcast that we're recording that people are going to listen to over the internet on their smartphones, like none of those things existed, right? I wouldn't even know what to do with that. And it's, it's the idea of consonance is not, you have to figure out what, where you have energy and then stick to that forever. It's that the world is going to change around you and you're going to change within the world. And so the constant change and alignment and flow of, of your energy and what matters to you at different stages and at

different, at different ages is inevitable and it's evolution and it's normal. And we should accept that and see that as potential and promise rather than limitations. Yeah. And coming full circle on a conversation. I mean, I think the work is to allow the space to remain dynamic in that process and know and accept it's going to change. If it doesn't change, something's broken. And that some of that change is going to be fun. Some of it's going to hurt like hell. Some of it's going to mean you have to grapple with a whole lot of stuff that's evolving within yourself and within your circumstances in the outside world. And that that process, while it's not necessarily easy, that is kind of what we're here to do. That is the heartbeat of life. And that like if the bigger vision outside of that is like how can I continue to be externally aware and self-aware on a level that I can keep searching for this place of consonance, resonance, alignment over time and allow myself and my circumstances the potential to change, to keep trying to find that intersection, that that's the work. And that's

where stuff gets not necessarily easy, but beautiful. Well, absolutely. And I think we get distracted so often. When I was selling my firm, we went through the whole valuation process and it's very hard to sell a professional services firm. When you're the principal and you leave, you don't know if people are still going to go to the firm. All of a sudden, you're gone. It turns out the people that worked in my firm were amazing and people knew them. They went to them. They were told, but they were scared. They said, if we write you this huge check and you walk out the door and then all of a sudden the place collapses, we're stuck. I kind of got my ego a little bit in a bunch because I thought, you know, this is, I spent 10 years helping to build this firm and sacrificed income along the way. Like I always

paid my people first. I mean, I, I felt like even though I ran the firm for 10 years to maximize my personal flexibility and my professional impact in the world, I suddenly, and we never maximized impact. We all made, I said, we were like a for enough profit company. We were never a for profit company, but we all actually made more money than we did at the big traditional firm because we were doing things in a smarter business way, I think. I suddenly got like an identity attached to the number, like that's my value. And it was hard for me to pull myself back from that until finally my husband said, you know, you never ran this for maximum profitability. Why are you trying to sell it for maximum profitability? And it was almost liberating when he said that to me, because I

realized everything I'd ever created up until that point, it still existed. And I'm so proud of the fact that, you know, that the political action committees and the philanthropic giving circles and AmeriCorps and a dot-com that I helped build for a couple of years and this, I'm so proud that they all still exist. Very few entrepreneurs can say that, but for me, that's part of my legacy. And when I lost sight of that ever so briefly and thought that my legacy was the number and that was my value, everything was in disarray. There was dissonance. I didn't have that confidence because I suddenly lost track of what I consider to be the metrics of success. And I suddenly was wrapped up in the, oh, the number is attached to

the sale and the sale is attached to my value. It makes a lot of sense. It was distracting. I think it's so easy for us to go there, especially because the sale's attached to my value. It makes a lot of sense. It was distracting. I think it's so easy for us to go there, especially because the outside world tends to value a very different set of metrics. And now I tell everybody quite proudly, I'm like, I sold that firm for a dollar. I sold it for a dollar plus a percentage of the revenue for the following five years, because that meant that we would both have skin in the game. They would continue to do well. I would continue to support them. And if they fell apart, that's because I didn't build a big enough foundation and a big enough legacy.

And it turns out I may actually end up making more money than I would have if I had done the number because they've done so well, which again, speaks to the five-year plan. But I think it also speaks to, because I didn't attach my value to the sale, it actually gave me almost like the tuition, like the investment dollars to spend the next few years learning how to be a speaker and not have to worry about, I'm going to go chase the dollars every minute because it's almost like I gave myself a scholarship. Yeah. It's interesting to sort of look at that frame. It feels like it's a good place for us to come full circle as well. So I'm hanging out here, Good Life Project HQ. If I offer out the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To live a good life is to figure out the thing

that lights you up. The thing for which you were put on this earth to do, like when you were in that fundamental moment of when you were at your very best, whether it's on the stage, whether it's loud, whether it's closing a deal or if it's like quiet in, you know, with a loved one, helping an employee through a hard situation, just when everything in you is all moving in the same direction, living a good life to me is maximizing your time in that space, because that's where the, what you do matches the, who you are, and you can manifest your values and your energy into the world in a way that makes you and the rest of the world a better place. And some people say, oh, well, that's just super ambitious,

but I think it's a responsibility that we have to everyone around us and ourselves. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who helped make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes. And while you're at it, if you've ever asked yourself, what should I do with my life?

We have created a really cool online assessment that will help you discover the source code for the work that you're here to do. You can find it at sparkotype.com. That's S-P-A-R-K-E-T-Y-P-E.com. Or just click the link in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, be sure to click on the subscribe button in your listening app so you never miss an episode. And then share, share the love. If there's something that you've heard in this episode that you would love to turn into a conversation, share it with people and have

that conversation. Because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold. See you next time. We'll be right back. flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just

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