Good Life Project - [BONUS] Citizen Cope | Music Month

Episode Date: May 9, 2019

Born in Memphis, spending summer months with his great aunt and uncle in a small west Texas town, while being raised in Washington, DC, Clarence Greenwood aka Citizen Cope (https://citizencope.com/welcome) grew up influenced by the production techniques of George Martin, Dr. Dre and Willie Mitchell while listening to everything from Willie Nelson, to John Lennon, Bob Marley, Outkast and A TribeCalled Quest.Cope has since built a decades-long career in the music industry on trusting his gut and following his muse, putting out albums under major labels, writing songs that've been recorded by the likes of Carlos Santana, Sheryl Crow and others and eventually, taking back control to publish under his own label. And if his new album, ‘Heroin And Helicopters,’ is any indication, his instincts are sharper now than ever before.We explore this powerful journey in today's conversation. And, as with all of our special episodes this month, we end this deep-conversation with a moving, in-studio acoustic performance from his new album. Citizen Cope is on tour right now, so be sure to check out his latest album and maybe even see him at a show near you (https://citizencope.com/tour).-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So my guest today, Clarence Greenwood, also known as Citizen Cope on the music circuit, grew up actually in the really early days in Memphis and then split most of his time between Washington, D.C. in the sort of late 80s and 90s and a small town in West Texas where he got exposed to all sorts of different types of music, the go-go scene in DC, the country scene in West Texas, and then sort of the whole amalgam. And that set him into a whole bunch of exploration of what it would be like for him to actually live his life in the world of music. It started by simply writing poetry and slowly blossomed into creativity and writing and singing and then recording.

He ended up getting signed pretty early on. And then some of the sort of elder guard in the music world started to take notice of him. People like Carlos Santana, who first recorded Cope's song Sideways. And then he decided at some point that it was time for him to step into his own place of control, start his own label and build his own career. As we sat down to record this conversation, he was literally about to kick off a new tour for his new album, Heroin and Helicopters. And that is kind of a funny story that involves Carlos and had it behind the name of that album. And the tour goes on for a number of months. And one of his first stops was actually just a couple blocks from our studio at the Beacon

in New York City. We dive into his journey, his life, his influences, the moments and experiences that really shaped and formed him. We explore how things have changed, how his lens on music and life has changed since he's become a dad, and so much more. Super excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet-black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot if we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk. I was born in Memphis, Tennessee and moved to Greenville, Mississippi. And my father's side of the family was in a small town in Texas called Vernon. So I was kind of exposed to different lifestyles, different communities, different cultures throughout my life. But when I moved to New York, I felt like it was the first time I felt like I was home. Yeah. So you would have been in D.C. then,

so this would be like mid-'80s, late-'80s, early-'90s? Yeah. Man, D.C. is a very different place now. I mean, that was when it was, you know, like from the outside world, it's like, well, the moniker was it was the murder cop of the country. Yeah, I mean, D.C. had an air of danger. And also there was just not that much going on.

But at the same time, it was a good place for me to kind of sit and write. You know, if I had moved to New York earlier, I think I would have been caught up in all the excitement. But it was definitely an interesting place to grow up because when I moved out of it, I felt like I'd been walking in quicksand. And I felt like, oh, wow, this is great. You can actually move around a little bit better and I do you know musical influences in DC and and I'm very grateful for the time I spent there and the solitude I had there where I could develop my songwriting craft yes it was able to do that but I've found

every city in the country has gone through a pretty massive transformation. Obviously, D.C. and New York and the big cities, but everywhere you go, people say the same thing. And if you're in an Uber, they're like, oh, man, you should have seen it five years ago or ten years ago. And then you kind of ask personally how they're doing, and they're like, well, I can't afford to live here anymore. And so I kind of wonder what the economic, you know, ramifications are or the realities of all the development is. But I guess we'll find that out. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think a lot of people are getting pushed out.

There's gentrification going on in every major city. And then now smaller and smaller cities and now big towns. And it's sort of, like you said, it's happening all over the place. Yeah, I wonder. Where do people go? You know, it's like.

I think there's just been a, you know, from the small cities and the rural communities and people were wanting to go where there was more access to stuff, especially when a lot of the cities were economically hit or the small towns. And there's always been that migration to the big city in every culture and in every country, I think, and even other countries coming to America, where people that want something more in their life, they move.

Yeah. But I think maybe it's going to go back. People are going to start going to these small towns that were built really well and they can go live there cheaply. Right. And do all their work on it. The dream starts to become like moving to the small town, moving out of the madness.

But I mean, so I came up right outside of New York City, actually, and we're about the same age. It's interesting because the, I think there were actually a lot of parallels between New York and DC, especially back then. I mean, there was a huge drug problem in New York. There's a huge drug problem in DC, but also there was a crazy rich music scene here.

And I mean, DC, I mean, that would have been, it's like DC punk. That's like, likec gogo i mean that that was the time when that stuff was really in its prime wasn't yeah gogo and and punk rock and out of the punk rock community there was a lot of independent indie kind of rock bands and you know on the same side of the gogoGo thing, there was some R&B stuff. They hadn't really started to do the hip hop thing yet because Go-Go was king in DC,

but now there's some artists in DC that are some rappers that have done pretty well. Yeah. I mean, was Go-Go a thing really outside of DC? It was pretty much a DC thing, wasn't it? I think DC people brought it everywhere and then people were questioning it, I mean, was Go-Go a thing really outside of D.C.? It was pretty much a D.C. thing, wasn't it? I mean, it was. I think D.C. people brought it everywhere and people were questioning it. But I went to school in Texas.

And one thing about Texas was that they got the East Coast stuff and the West Coast stuff. And the guys there loved music so much that they had actually heard of Chuck Brown and Trouble Funk. And I think it was able to get to certain communities and understood in certain communities, but sometimes they didn't understand it until they got to hear it. But I think a lot of D.C. guys that left D.C. always brought their Go-Go records. Yeah. I mean, for those who, which is probably going to be most people who don't know what we're talking about when we're talking about Go-Go, I've heard it described a lot of different ways. How would you sort of explain what it actually was or still is?

I think it's just the sound of DC. Yeah. I think it's the energy of DC that you can't really, you know, Go-go shows two, three hours long, and they don't stop in between songs. They go and blend songs from one to the next. A lot of rhythm, a lot of cross-rhythm, percussions, congas, timbales, great drummers, great musicians. Sometimes they'll do cover songs.

Sometimes they'll do their own anthems, but it kind of had, you know, just a counterculture to it, a point of view. Chuck Brown, who was the godfather and, you know, was just an ambassador to peace and love as well and very inclusive person but it was kind of the sound of inner city dc and the surrounding areas that that

that took it on and accepted it and loved it and people just D.C., do three or four shows a week, and it's still cranking, as they say. I mean, and it also, it's really, it wasn't like, you know, you're just performing to the crowd. This was a conversation. This was like call and response. This was like people were in it the whole time. Yeah, and, you know, people would be called out and shouted out, and the local drug dealers would be called out uncertain and there was this

guy that would walk around with all the different tapes of the different night with the different bands there was all these bootleg tapes going out so there was a culture of people collecting rare go-go tapes live go-go tapes from certain clubs. And that was a thriving industry as well. Yeah. Because it was kind of a live form. I mean, it was caught on record a few times pretty well, but it was really a live entity and still is. Yeah.

Do you have any of those old tapes? I have a couple of them. I have an amazing uh chuck brown a couple chuck brown ones and some rare essence stuff and some backyard stuff actually a couple of the guys from backyard played on a couple of my records and bass player from rare essence recorded and mixed some stuff for me and played on a couple songs, Funky Ned and, what's his name? It's Mike Neal.

And I recorded in a studio there. Yeah. Nice. I'd love to hear those tapes one day. Yeah. Be fun to just sort of like throw back and listen to that stuff. Were you, because the punk scene was really, really big in DC.

Were you into that at all? Or were you sort of like more on the... I was really really big in dc were you into that at all or were you certainly more on the i was more on the gogo stuff and and you know when hip-hop came it changed um i had a lot of friends that were really into the punk rock stuff and in my high school i went to wilson high school where a couple of the guys from Bugazi went and Ian McKay started there. I mean, they were older than me, but the guys that were into the punk rock scene that were my age had learned from them and went on to do their thing. So there was a couple classmates of mine that were in this band called Girls Against Boys. It became that. Before that, it was a band called Lunch Meat or Soulside.

Gotta love all the news. Yeah. Especially back then. They kind of come through. Sullivan and Johnny Temple and Eli Janney and these guys were heavily influenced by that side of it. And they took off in that direction. So what is it that brings you into the music scene? Like, were you, did you start really young or was it high school-ish? No, we had instruments in elementary school. and I think that was one of the big

things. I got really into it as a listener, just listening to records and vinyl and of all aspects and friends, and we started messing around playing guitar. I never thought I would be a guitar player because I couldn't really learn other people's songs. And then I started writing poetry. I kind of got into it late in my teens. Started writing poetry and I was feeling, wow, how did this happen? It just kind of came. And I was really into when the hip hop thing came in, learning these drum machines. So I bought a drum machine and a four-track and started getting...

The old Rollins. Yeah, and started kind of getting into that. And then I got a sampler and learned sampling and kind of started to understand the mystery of what it was that was a song, a verse, and a chorus, and a bar, and all these kind of things that I had no idea about. I was just mystified by how music could be made. And that kind of helped me by sampling, understanding what a song really was.

So I kind of got into it from that point and then picked my guitar back up and started writing songs because i had all this stuff and i was like well i can't even sing a song for my grandma and then i i kind of went back and used what i'd learned with the drum machine and and and kind of wanted something really cool to sound, pay respect to the music I loved rhythmically and also as a songwriter. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting too, because while you've got this going on in DC,

like you shared, you're spending the summers out in West Texas. Yeah. Getting exposed to just a complete, I mean, not only a completely different culture, but a completely different world of sort of music and musical influences too. Yeah, I mean, you would hear the,

obviously the country stuff and not just the old school Willie Nelson and Waylon Jennings stuff, but also what was current in that time, you know, the Alabamas or the, you know, these Oak Ridge boys or, you know, Rita McIntyre. And so that had its own thing. But it's funny, you know, some of the guys was listening to LL Cool J too.

So culturally it was an interesting place because Vernon was one of these towns where I say it didn't, it wasn't a very kind place. And I always say like accidents would happen there. Things you would hear about in life, somebody drowning or getting hit by a bolt of lightning or it seemed like to happen there. It was like the unfortunate town. It was just really, even though it was a small town, things tended to happen there and were kind of unbelievable. And it was culturally a lot of different religions and a lot of different churches. And the reality of racism was very prevalent. But then again, it was a southern town and a small town, so people were actually interacting, whereas D.C. was more segregated. So as I got older, I realized that racism and all that kind of stuff existed everywhere in America, and it wasn't just the South or in those places.

But there, it was very upfront and in your face. Yeah. I mean, you seem like somebody, you don't hear about many people who start writing poetry at a pretty young age, especially Americans and especially men. Right. So were you a kid?

I mean, even at a young age, were you someone who was sort of, um, observing and deeper and more sensitive to the world around you to a certain extent? Yeah. I mean, I think because I had these different, completely different lives, lives. I mean, my, my mother and father divorced when I was very young. My father stayed in this small town and my mother moved to Washington DC and from there we were in Greenville, Mississippi and kind

of in the middle of nowhere, a small house on a farm. And to move to kind of an area in D.C. where people were very intellectual. And my stepfather went there to be a public defender. And he wasn't my stepfather yet, but they eventually got married, but they moved together. And my father disappeared when I was really young. So I ended up always going back and staying with my great aunt and uncle who raised my father in Vernon, which I loved West Texas. My aunt was an incredible cook. She used to fry about three or four times a week. And, and I just wonder why I can't eat fried food anymore all the time. But, um, you know, she just cooked from scratch and,

but they were very country. My, uh, my uncle had lost his arm in a, uh, cotton gin accident, but still went to the farm and raised cattle and fixed fence posts and that kind of thing. Was a very calm and still individual. Didn't talk a lot. Didn't have a lot of hatred in him, or he wouldn't express it, really. I saw that a lot down there. But they were a lot of hatred in him or he wouldn't express it really. I saw that a lot down there. But they were a lot older. They didn't have children.

So they tended to kind of dote upon my sister and I. And we drank Coca-Colas every day. And they would cook for us. And we'd go to the pool, swimming pool. And I'd go to the farm with my uncle every day. You know, every day he went. Yeah. So when you start writing, what is it that you feel like you have to get out?

Like what was the driving kind of thing? Well, it started with that. Well, my uncle passed away when I was 19 or 18. And that was a real moment of kind of everything in my life that I kind of not understood came front and center. And I had this really cathartic moment when I was viewing him in the funeral home where I just cried for hours and I couldn't be moved. And it was all this emotion of stuff that in my life that I didn't understand. I was basically, I'd been estranged from my father for years and I hadn't seen him at that point. And my mother was so mad that I didn't go to college, that we were estranged. And then my uncle dies, and he's like my hero. And I had this cathartic, like I'm crying.

And then I go back and I start writing these poems. And I just couldn't stop. And it was like, wow, this is really good. I wasn't really ever that good at anything up until that point. I was a decent rider. I was probably a pretty good rider. But, you know, I really loved playing sports just within, you know, on the street, playing basketball or whatever, playing football.

I didn't hit my growth spurt until I was like 16. So my first dreams of being a football player were kind of squashed. Plus I was probably one of the slower people in the history of the world. And so that wasn't going to work. And so this kind of came pretty, it just wrote itself, and it was really good. I was listening to stuff, and my junior year, I started buying and selling tickets to concert and sporting events. So I was scalping tickets, and I started making money and I was always into doing everything when you were a kid to make money and breaking leaves and cutting lawns and all those kind of basic things. But then I started kind of making grown up money as a teenager and that was something that kind of allowed me to start getting musical equipment and then listening to records and

i didn't think i could do it for a living but i was just interested in it it was like wow this is really cool you know drum machine is cool yeah you know plug into a headphone and just try to make a drum beat and it was just something that happened one slow step at a time and and that's yeah so it's not i mean it's interesting because it's not it's not like you woke up and you're that happen one slow step at a time. Yeah, so it's not, I mean, it's interesting because it's not like you woke up and you're like, oh, this is my future. I'm gonna be a musician. I'm gonna go to school.

I'm gonna study with people. It was just like bit by bit. You're like, oh, I can like, here's some poetry. This is actually something I feel good about. It's like something that's good. And then a love of music and then the ability to go out and actually purchase the stuff that lets you just completely immerse yourself in it.

And it sounds like just really a huge amount of it was both teaching yourself, but then exposing yourself to all sorts of other types of music. It all came together. Yeah, there was a lot. And then I had friends that were in bands and stuff and they would say, Hey, have you heard this?

And a friend who turned me onto the Willie Mitchell instrumental record. And he's the producer that produced our green stuff and people that turn me onto the meters. And these were guys that, you know, played music and instruments and stuff like that, that, you know,

we're playing in bands. And I moved to Austin, Texas and lived there for a couple of years. And I didn't think about it then, but I guess my perspective on life was probably, you know, it was, I was meant to be some type of artist or some, some type of writer because I had experienced kind of different things in American life and also personally gone through things that I didn't necessarily feel were, they were just regular to me, but they were actually probably pretty prevalent and helping me establish a point of view. So I go to DC and people understood my life there. And then I go to Texas and people would understand my life there, but they wouldn't be able to see when I

wasn't there. So it was a completely different lifestyle and it was a different experience. And I was able to have, you know, both of those things. And I guess it just contributed to it. Yeah. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest

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Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. What happens that takes you from saying, okay, so I got pieces of the puzzle here. I can write. I'm learning all sorts of different instrumentation and how to record and how to use different electronic stuff. And now I'm picking up the guitar again.

To then also saying, okay, so can I sing? Maybe I can sing. And then what would it be like for me to actually start to record, like to actually make this potentially my thing? Yeah, I was just more into it to write and produce and then I was like, who's gonna

sing this? And then I just started singing and I could always keep a tune and there was a point before my voice changed that I really could sing. And when my voice changed, I didn't think about it anymore much. I was doing most of my lyrics more close to a spoken word or kind of a rap without a good flow kind of thing.

And then I started singing. And I went in the studio and started recording, you know, I would just record. Like I'd get a studio and hire an engineer and go and cut a song. And I started doing that and doing my demos and then sending them out and a couple people from clubs asked me to open up and, and that they liked the tape and it's just one thing led to the other. Yeah. Were you surprised by that? I mean, or did you expect it or somewhere in the middle?

I don't think I was comfortable with it at first. I still hadn't found my sound. I think when I found my sound, I was strumming the guitar and I felt the goosebumps and I wrote this song and the tears came down and it was just something genuine about it. After years of writing tons of lyrics and making tons of beats and all these other things, I got to this song. It was called Shotguns, that I wrote. It was off the first record that never came out on Capitol Records. It's a very personal album, and the song was pretty much about kind of like the suicide of our country at the time

because of the cultural differences and building prisons. And Vernon, it turned into a place where it had all these prisons and and I was in school for a year at Texas Tech in Lubbock and uh I wrote this lyric I said uh stuck in fucking Lubbock Texas and I can't even find me a college girl and um you know I was in college so you know I was probably the first person ever to get laid in college, but that was me. And then I'm going to visit my cousin over in Vernon. That little bitty town is all that motherfucker loves. And it goes in, and he's getting nervous because out his window, they're building another prison yard.

It's got me thinking, in a town you can't drink in, just who are they building those prisons for? And then the chorus was like, well, accidents, they happen with shotguns sometimes. But this is suicide. Because, you know, in the South, there's a culture of suicide, and there's also a culture of guns. And there's a culture of people that kill people by accident. And so I kind of

put all that together and I was just, just a moment. I was like, wow, this is a fucking great song. And I just felt really good about it. And that's when I knew that I did, you know, and I had a prayer. I said, I just prayed that I would do something authentic in music. And it wasn't about, hey, can I get a Grammy or can I get rich or can I get famous? But I just wanted to do something authentic. But I probably should have said, can I do something authentic and win a Grammy? Right. It doesn't have to be an either or here.

It could be a yes and, yeah. But. Right. It doesn't have to be an either or here. It could be a yes and, yeah. So you kind of threw out there that that was for an album that you were actually eventually signed for. I think Capitol was the... Yeah, I signed to Capitol Records from a demo tape that was found by a scout at the time. It was my friend Marshall Artwin, who's a producer and he's in Nashville now, but he was a scout at Capitol at the time. It was my friend Marshall Artwin, who's a producer and he's in Nashville now, but he was a scout at Capitol at the time and that turned into a deal. I did the

record and they didn't accept it, so they dropped me from the label. What was the reason? Why didn't they want it? The record was very... The demos that I did in D in dc actually were a little bit stronger than the album because i went and re-recorded the album in new york and i didn't realize that some of the magic that i did on those demos probably should have just i should

have stuck with some of that and stayed there and done that. But looking back, I didn't make the best record. I had some great songs on there, but it was heartbreaking. Yeah, I mean, especially because this is, it's the record where that song that you just explained was the one where it was the first time where the tears came, like the shakes came, like this is what I'm here to do. And then to have that go into an album

and then to have the company say, not happening. Yeah, and it was all personal too. And then I had to go and I had written all these songs and now, I mean, there's a re-record restriction on my album. So I couldn't re-record any of those songs even if i got another deal so i had to write a bunch of new songs i got a loft on ninth street which was 2500 square feet and kind of like a drug area at the time back in dc yeah a lot of prostitution um i still had some money left over from my advance from Capitol,

so it was like, I think it was like $800 a month. So it was, but it was great. I could sing out really loud. Wrote a bunch of new songs. Salvation, I wrote If There's Love. I was listening to Outkast Records and looked on the liner notes who recorded it. And I called that guy up and sent him some music.

And he's like, man, this sounds great. Come down here and I'll cut some demos. I mean, so it's interesting because when you get that first thing from Capit on there, like we're done. For you, that wasn't, something inside of you said, okay, it's not that I don't have, or it's like, this isn't the end of my career. Like, no, this is just, this is one no, but I'm still all in. Yeah, I mean, you get the, I mean, it is heartbreaking because you think, you know, you went from scalping tickets to now having a major record company deal out of DC, which was very rare. And then I didn't want to stop there, but I knew that it was going to be challenging because I'd felt like I'd written some really, really good songs. And I

just didn't understand why they couldn't understand the songs. And then it got to, okay, well, you're either going to do it or not. And then I had to write. And some other songs came, and it was just amazing. And I started singing out a little bit more. And as far as having more space to do it in that loft, I could learn the craft of actually singing a little bit better and went to Atlanta, cut some songs, and then when I cut

If There's Love in Atlanta as a demo, I remember coming back and being like, it's done, I'm good now. I have this and I'm going to be able to get another deal. Yeah, so did you take that and then go back out to the market at that point? I took that, and from different people I'd met, there was a guy that was at Warner Brothers. They were thinking of signing me when I was with Capital,

but they didn't end up doing it. Or after the Capitol thing. And he lost his job and he shot the deal for me. And, you know, If There's Love and I had a couple other songs that were done. And, you know, DreamWorks and Interscope and all of those came around and they wanted to do a deal. So you end up signing on with DreamWorks. I signed with DreamWorks, did a record with them. I signed with them because Lenny Walker,

who did Randy Newman's records and a lot of the old Warner Brothers stuff, I just liked him as an executive and I was close to him. And I probably should have signed with Jimmy Iovine, but I didn't. And he told me, you're making a giant mistake. And I did not do that deal, but did the record with DreamWorks. And they didn't really have the marketing department there, but there was a really cool executive. I could call up Lenny and say, hey, listen to this song and say, hey, go record it. And in fact, I did that when I recorded Sideways. It wasn't on the record.

I'd already finished my album and I played it for him over the phone, which I used to do. And he said, hey, go do that. And I cut the song. So I felt really good about the creative side. They let me do what I had to do creatively. But the record was so in between genres. And it was like a California label. And they kind of didn't understand the East Coast thing. And they, at the time, just had a lot of money. And it was more kind of, okay, let's meet to meet.

Let's have another meeting to meet to meet. He pushed it back and pushed it back, and then the album didn't really do what it was supposed to do, and at that point, I started getting involved. I sent Sideways out, and Carlos Santana really liked it out of nowhere, and he wanted to put it on his new record and that was on Arista Records and I went over to that company and it was amazing because I just I was like

this is a real record company you know this is like real cool people that really sell records even on the pop stuff that wasn't what my cup of tea, but they had a history of actually really marketing and promoting music and also stuff that wasn't necessarily, you know, mainstream and turning it into mainstream. They had that ability. And, you know, people, you know, I was being invited to parties for outcast parties and Carlos Santana things, and it was, and I was like, to parties for Outkast parties and Carlos Santana things. And I was like, this seems better.

And they were like, hey, man, if you want to leave DreamWorks. And I said, absolutely. Let's cut this. Yeah. And I called Lenny and I said, I'm real sorry, but I got to go. And you guys aren't going to get this. Because I'd already played them like Sun's Going to Rise off the new record and Sideways,

and I didn't get the reaction that I thought that I was going to get from them. And I took it to Arista, and I had to pay DreamWorks off personally. Right, basically buy yourself out of the contract. So did Santana release Sideways before you actually put it out? He did, but it was already done for my record, but his record was coming out before the Clarence Greenwood recording.

So the version on my album doesn't have Carlos on it. The version on his album does, but it's the same version. Got it. And it's a different mix. Sheryl Crow eventually recorded that also? Sheryl cut that, yeah. Right. Yeah.

What's it like when you write a song and you get word back that Carlos Santana wants to record it? Man, it felt so good because I was running around to all these radio stations with the DreamWorks guy, and bless his heart, it was such a sweet guy, this guy Mark Ratner. And we were going everywhere, but he was also pushing all these other DreamWorks bands at the same time, calling all these radio people, and like, we're going to get Jimmy World, we're going to get Papa Roach, and I was like, all right, and then get this call, and it's, hey, Carlos really loves the

song, and his family really loves the song, and they want to put it, so it was kind of taking me into the major leagues after I was kind of in this, you know, buying pizza and steaks and lobster dinners for stations that were never, ever playing my record or never would kind of thing to where, wow, I was, you know, Carlos had just come off the biggest record of the year and the follow-up, everyone was trying to get on it.

So like most of the songs on that record on shaman were written by multiple people and produced by a different producer and then fine-tooth combed and i've written and produced this record and already recorded and carlos flew me out to to just be at his session when we put some percussions on it and his guitar. What's it like when you're in the studio with him and you hear him play your song for the first time? It was kind of wild because I'd just done a video for If There's Love and my car to the airport came at like 6 o'clock in the morning and we just wrapped at like 4.30,

and so I didn't sleep, and then Carlos flew me economy through Chicago because they didn't want to spend money on that kind of stuff. So you're like delirious by the time you get there. So I got there, and then, you know, got to the, I didn't even go to the hotel, went straight to the studio, and then I literally sat down. And the percussionist was up there.

He was like, what do you want me to play? And I just looked down. I was like, shh. And I think they thought I was like, oh, I don't know what you should play. But I was just more like, oh, God, we're going right into it. Right, right. Then Jim Gaines was there, the engineer and longtime engineer with Carlos. He just cut it a couple times.

It took a couple takes. He had an idea what he wanted to do. And I had a few comments, but it literally was a couple hours. We're in the studio. I think he was going somewhere that night. There was really nothing to that session. Yeah, it just happened real fast. Yeah.

So you're in a place then where you make the jump. You're kind of being courted by some big names, and you're at a place where you feel like you can start to do more of you and be supported by people who will be behind that. Yeah. I mean, it was great going to a record company and seeing all these pretty women. And it was like smart. They were smart and they liked my music. I just felt understood there. And I delivered the record and then the whole staff got fired. And it was going to be a major push.

And it was under the Sony system, and they just moved it over to RCA, which was Clive Davis was kind of running things. And it just wasn't a company I would have signed with. It was kind of like very male-dominated. Because I think you kind of have to have some understanding, you know, some women around to kind of understand what I was doing at the time. And it was kind of older white men running things that chased ambulances. And not in particular Clive, but the people under him at RCA at the time were kind of like, I was like, I went from a major

down to kind of like a mid-major again. Yeah. And it wasn't a company that those people would even have signed me, but they knew I'd finished the Clarence Greenwood recordings and knew the record was hot because it was already on the street and people were talking about it.

Yeah. So was that when you made the decision to peel off on your own? No, I had to do two records with RCA. You're still under with them. So I did two records with them. It was not great, you know. So I just said, hey, let me roll. Yeah.

I mean, you hear that story so much in the industry, right, is that people get locked into contracts and you don't have the final say on when you get out. No, they locked you down for a long time in perpetuity and throughout the universe. It's not even throughout the world. So they obviously know something we don't. But that world is changing, man.

It's kind of exploding in a lot of different ways i'm curious i i want to actually ask you about that in a second what just popped into my head is um the tracks you wrote for that original album that was never released for capital have they ever seen the light of day no i i actually released one of the songs called family on a disc but i'm gonna put that out probably in a couple of years. Oh, cool. Yeah. So you had like, you got those free and clear at this point. I got those, yeah.

But it took time. Yeah, it took time. So then you do the, you basically satisfy the rest of your obligation for them. And then you decide, you know what, kind of done with the industry the way it is. I didn't do my own thing. Yeah, I was, it was just kind of amateur hour over there. And I'd given them two records that I was like, yo, if you can't get Sideways and Bullet and the Target,

something's going to rise off of one record. And that record eventually has four platinum singles and they never went to radio. Like they were just basically just letting me, the record did what it did by the grace of God. Which especially that one was just 2000. 2004, 2005. And then Every Wicked Moment was 2006.

Right. So back then that was unheard of. I mean, it's different now because, you know, like all the big digital platforms. Right. But back then, I mean, be able to do that completely independently without substantial radio airplay, that's like nobody does that. Yeah, there was no radio airplay. picked it up, but it wasn't even like on the lowest radio thing is like the AAA format and didn't even chart on the AAA like bulletin to target and sun's going to rise. And it just, they didn't, I later found out they didn't even go to these stations.

Luckily, I had a really good person that was really behind it at RCA named Karen Lamberton who got me, helped get me a lot of licenses. So I got a lot of great licenses and the music was very visual. And there were some people in there fighting, but it was just, I mean, the top people just, we just didn't see, you know, the main guy was kind of more into like the super pop thing,

which I was very good at. It was Clive Davis. He was very good at that. And with Something Left to Sinner was not necessarily his thing. He had to be kind of really convinced. And it was hard. I spent a lot of time on the road and built that,

made myself kind of label proof. Yeah. But I don't want to skip over that though, because I think that's such an important part of your story is what you did is, you know, okay, so you don't have the labels, you know, a major label backing and the channels and the money and the resources and the people going out for you. But what you do have is a belief in what you're doing yeah strong point of view yeah and at that point a level of craft that people who are really good yeah yeah recognize and musicians who are out there and they're rallying behind you and then you turn around and you do the hard work of saying, you know what? I'm literally, I am just going to go. I'm going to hit the road.

And I'm going to play everywhere and anywhere I can for a long time. And just do the work to just build as much, you know, like to just go out there on the road and not stop until everyone knows about this. Yeah. stop until everyone knows about this yeah i mean that's that's pretty much what i what you have to do as an artist is is is kind of make yourself if you're not going to get those kind of things that everyone else gets you gotta you gotta eat somehow so you gotta gotta figure out how to get your stuff out there and people have different ways of doing it and i had awful stage fright so i never thought i would be a performer so much performing so you still have it to this day or yeah i mean but it's not as bad as it used to be yeah i used to be debilitating well what would

you i mean before you would go on stage what would you you do to be able to survive your time? I wouldn't. I would just dread it, you know, and then get out there and just feel not at place. And then I started drinking a lot, and that helped. Or at least I thought it helped. Yeah, I mean, you see why people, a lot of times musicians get into that,

into different substances. I mean, I read about it a lot because like why the hell did I get dependent on drinking all the time and then smoking weed all day? And then there's some stuff in the Guardian about why that you're the kind of predisposed artists are kind of the question of whether you're predisposed

to be dependent on substances or does the job make you do it? And so it was kind of an interesting article, but they spoke on how the chemicals go when you're on stage and then after there's like a drop and then some people always want to keep lifting that up and whether it's like finding some pretty woman or drinking wine or, you know.

Yeah, somehow trying to figure out how do I keep that feeling going perpetually. Yeah, how do you keep the highs going up? Yeah, which eventually always ends in usually a pretty big low. Yeah, misery and despair. Yeah. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. Misery and despair. Apple Watch. Getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required.

Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. you know what the difference between me and you is you're gonna die don't shoot if we need them y'all need a pilot flight risk um so you're out there on the road you're building you know a pretty big audience that's getting

behind you both your both your fans and then people in the industry as well and then other musicians who are taking notice of you and and you're starting also tour and open for some people um so like you're on stage and working with other people and when you decide finally right um i still got more to say but i want complete control over my ability to actually record and distribute and stuff like that. Was that an easy call for you? It wasn't easy. It just made sense. I wanted the ownership of it because I would realize that these companies that I signed to, they weren't existing.

They didn't exist anymore. This guy got fired or that guy got fired. And then the other people, you know, Universal or Sony would own all this stuff that I did. And I wasn't able to use the assets like radio or press or any of these other things that were never kind of part of the package, even though I'd signed to the deal. I didn't even use the A&R department at RCA. I fired the A&R guy right when I got assigned him because he didn't... I remember one time he wouldn't have signed me. The only thing he did was try to tell me to change the order of the songs in the Clarence Greenwood recordings.

And then he stamped his name on the album. So he got fired. And he wasn't allowed in the studio. So there wasn't any really A&R people involved in the record making process at RCA. And I didn't get radio. So that wasn't a part of it and there wasn't really any press press going on so it's like you could do the same thing yourself yeah it's like i can deliver no results and not get in my way like yeah yeah and then i own it so but but you know there are

a lot of like positives you know at the time for me for signing to a label. So it worked out. It wasn't like, I don't regret any of that. I don't think I would have got to where I got unless I did that. Until I did that, I had to do it. Yeah, well, it's like a step in the journey. But you eventually end up opening your own label, I guess probably going on nine, 10 years ago now. Yeah.

Yeah, so this is the third album that I'm doing, putting it out. Has it been what you thought it would be? Yeah, I mean, it's, but it's still, I mean, music is still kind of in that, music has changed so much where it's just like, it's all or nothing. so it's like super pop or you're kind of just all right you know and and so it's it's beautiful in that sense that that

some people are getting being able to be seen a lot more than they would have been able to see be seen so it's amazing the giant streaming platforms also to completely change the game in so many ways. Yeah. And the labels own a piece of that. So their people kind of still get the majority of the streaming. Yeah. It's not as democratic as it seems. So there's these ideas that, oh, yeah, you can start your own label

and you can just make your record in your house. But the fact is that nobody's going to hear it either way because it takes a lot of money to break a record. But also, I mean, a hit on Spotify is recorded, written, recorded and engineered differently than like an old school radio hit. I mean, like you have what, seven seconds on Spotify to grab somebody or something like that. So you had a little more breathing room, sort of like I think on traditional radio. I feel like, I almost feel like the mainstream industry is now channeling everybody into writing

for the digital platforms in a way where like, you've got to just instantly bang within the first seven to ten seconds and that's the way every song has to be written or else you know so there's no i don't feel like there's enough room for the slow builds for something that's a little bit you know like like you said a little bit to the left yeah um which kind of takes like you got to ease into it but then once you're into into it, it's like you're along for the ride. Yeah. I mean, people, it's just a different, also people want different things from music now.

It's a different thing. So it's not any worse or any better. It's just what it is. And you can't change it. So it's like, there's no going back in time, and there's really no doubting that some of the stuff that really is on those streaming services is really cool. There's a lot of shit that sounds really good. taken aspects of hip-hop and they've taken aspects of pop and they've kind of molded it all into one into this big like you know music on steroid thing and it's and it's worked and then you listen you listen back to classic records and you saw they sound great too so it's like you can't change time and it's the energy right now. What's popping right now musically is the energy of the world.

And that's really how, like I used to say, like rappers used to be drug dealers and now rappers are drug addicts. And these young people have been thrown into to kind of a where they've been taken advantage of because they get a phone in their hand at a young age. And then there's this bill and, you know, Verizon's even charging some kid $200. He didn't know he's tagging up his phone, his parents' phone bill. And then people go to college and they owe $200,000. So it's really, the dog-eat-dog thing is really, really there, even though we kind of lived in more, you know, now it's a more protected society, supposedly, but it's still, you know,

still dog-eat-dog. And I think a lot of these kids, you know, doing music, you know, they might have been artists already at a young age. And people were, oh, he's acting up in class, put him on Ritalin or put him on this, whatever that drug is that they're putting him on. And then eventually they get dependent on the stuff that's in their parents' closet.

And so it's the energy of what's going on. depending on the stuff that's in their parents' closet. And so it's the energy of what's going on. And I think that's a real truth to what's popping right now. It's not the deepest, it's not the most thought out, but there's a truth to it and an energy that exists. There's almost like, it's like an anxious frenetic thing. I think that's, that's driving so much right now. And we realized that, you know, life isn't fair and it's not just, and there isn't anything,

there is no justice. So therefore people are like, gotta get what I gotta get and that's that's what it is and I think that reflects in the music to a certain extent

also you you took off I wanna say probably seven years or so between your last album

and the new one that's just dropping literally like as we're sitting down in the studio recording this and in that window you also became a dad you got a daughter now has being a father changed your lens on um on the music that you write or your approach to to yeah i mean you know there's

certain things you can do as an artist when you're not a father that you can't do as a father. So, or at least that I don't feel right doing as a father. There's also, you know, it's amazing being around a child. So there's, and just because of how I was raised, I didn't have my father around me and being able to be there for her is like, that's healing. That's like, wow, I get to, I get to re do this and be kind of around and, and be there for her and spoil her and you know it was kind of wild because it i looked back at it and my sisters had to deal with the same thing and even my grandmother on my mother's side lost her father when she was um in the womb. So it was kind of like this kind of ever present thing.

It was like a very healing, beautiful thing. And it was just more fun to kind of be in that mode than always kind of thinking of, because it hasn't been an easy battle, you know, musically. So I was just like, all right, this is good. Let's go eat some Chinese food. So the new album, Heroin Helicopters, is kind of a fun story about where the name comes from. Yeah, Carlos told me to watch out for the two H's,

and I didn't know what they were. He saw me out at the film war when he was trying to get sideways, and he's like, watch out for heroin and helicopters. It's not good for musicians. So I thought it made so much sense about today with people's addictions to social media, with people's addictions to drugs and let alone narcotic epidemic. And then also the helicopters, kind of the need to kind of get somewhere faster and the decadence of helicopters and also the danger of helicopters

and let alone the, you know, kind of taking shortcuts. It just seems like, wow, that made sense. And it makes sense now. So, and there's a story to it. So it's good because I don't want to hear, oh, what's the name about? You know because I don't want to hear, oh, what's the name about? I don't want to answer that question.

You're about to drop into a tour for a couple months now. When you think about it, and this is around a brand new album, first album, seven years, pretty intense tour, a couple months going from city to city city um when you do something like this and you know you're just going to be completely immersed do you ever do you think about what you want to happen during it or do you set an intention for it or what you want to either create for the people that are coming to it or get for yourself when you're sort of like just about to dive into it i think what's what's crazy about live stuff is is is it's always been such a

learning process to me and like i was saying earlier i never felt like i got on stage and this is what i meant i was supposed to do it's just just every, now it's just, I'm learning and feeling emotions and being able to include the crowd more and include people listening into my world. And there's a give and take and a receiving and releasing and all that other stuff that was always there, but it was never fully recognized.

And I just want to fully open up and also spend my days enjoying different aspects of life and trying to fulfill myself, steep myself into philosophy and all that other stuff that is kind of like helping me develop as a human being and as a man and as a father and trying to not just be a means to an end to do a tour because I still want to live life outside of that bubble and hopefully come off the tour and know that, kind of put certain things into practice

that I've wanted to. And that's really what an artist does. I think an artist uses music as a vehicle to reach a certain spiritual awakening. And that happens. And then you forget about it because all the different little temptations come if you become successful at all.

So God will come in there and throw these temptations. You see how you react. Oh yeah, you're really good at turning down this and this and this but what about this and then and and and so it's something you continuously need to to to practice and it's it's it's like a any kind of other thing but it it's just, music is just a vehicle, hopefully, to human development and growth. That's what I think it is. Yeah.

It can really fuck you up, though. I mean, it's like it can really, am I allowed to say that? Yeah. But yeah, it's one of those things that I think initially people don't know that that's why they're getting into the arts. But just like when they say athletes or team sports isn't about the actual victory or learning to be a great player, it's about learning to be a great man or a great woman. There's other things in life, life lessons that you're supposed to learn within that sport. And I think that there's life lessons you're supposed to learn out here doing music

and losing your autonomy and all these other things that happen along the way. And, you know, part of your development is is is dependent on it or else you end up like a lot of people in this industry which is you know addicted to drugs broke or you know or your life is cut short you know it's not really the job everyone says they want to be a musician but it's not really the job. Everyone says they want to be a musician, but it's not really the job you have if you want a great family life without splitting up. You want to be sober and clean. Any artist is going to have their vices.

That's why some of the OGs like Clapton and Carlos Santana and people that have made it through, like Lionel Richie or Dolly Parton, they're just few and far between. You've got to give them their sincere amount of admiration to people that have actually done it, stayed alive. Yeah. So it feels like a good place for us to come full circle too. So it's called Good Life Project.

So if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To live a good life is a good meal, somebody to share it with that understands who you are, admires who you are, understands your faults, can help you with your deficiencies, can enhance the positive things in your life. Some joy, some laughter, some companionship.

And hopefully you don't have to travel too far to find that. You can find that within at some point. But if you get to travel to do it, And that's amazing too. And you know, to give something to others and also be able to receive. Thank you. So as we wrap things up, we sit here in our studio. I know you don't have your guitar with you,

but I happen to have two guitars hanging here on the wall. And if you're down with maybe grabbing one of them and sharing something maybe from your newest album, that would be awesome. So I'm going to let you do your thing that you set up, and then we're going to listen. guitar solo They'll take you down by the river

They'll lay you down by the river They'll shoot you down by the river They'll shoot you down by the river Leave you to drown by the river They'll say it's love when it's not They'll say you're boring You're turning my mind Somehow their name is your fault They killed that little down by the river They'll lay you down by the river

They'll shoot you down by the river Leave you were drowned by the river They'll say it's love when it's not They'll say you're the war and you'll return in a pine box Somehow they'll claim it's your fault They killed that little child in a park This has got to stop They'll take you down by the river They'll take you down by the river They'll shoot you down by the river They lay you down by the river They shoot you down by the river

Leave you to drown by the river by the river by the river by the river, by the river, by the river, by the river, by the river. Cause I never wanted to lose your love I just wanted to choose your love Lost in a moment of confusion And I'm a son of a loser

I never wanted to lose your love I just wanted to choose your love Thoughts in a moment of confusion Now it's all an illusion New River, New River New River, New River Yeah. I do with my life, we have created a really cool online assessment that will help you discover the source code for the work that you're here to do. You can find it at sparkotype.com. That's S-P-A-R-K-E-T-Y-P-E.com. Or just click the link in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, be sure to click on the subscribe button in your listening app so you never miss an

episode. And then share, share the love. in your listening app so you never miss an episode. And then share, share the love. If there's something that you've heard in this episode that you would love to turn into a conversation, share it with people and have that conversation. Because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold. See you next time. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him.

Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

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