Good Life Project - Brave, Not Perfect | Reshma Saujani

Episode Date: October 15, 2019

Reshma Saujani is the Founder and CEO of Girls Who Code (https://girlswhocode.com/), the nonprofit organization working to close the gender gap in technology and change the image of what a computer programmer looks like and does. She is the author of three books (http://reshmasaujani.com/), including Brave, Not Perfect (https://amzn.to/33hlNbH), New York Times bestseller Girls Who Code: Learn to Code and Change the World (https://amzn.to/33f9JaT), and Women Who Don't Wait In Line. Her TED talk, "Teach girls, bravery not perfection," has more than four million views and has sparked a worldwide conversation about how we're raising our girls.Reshma's earned broad recognition for her work as an attorney, activist, and advocate for young women, including Fortune World's Greatest Leaders; Fortune 40 Under 40; WSJ Magazine Innovator of the Year; Forbes Most Powerful Women Changing the World; Fast Company 100 Most Creative People; and Crain's New York 40 Under 40, among others.Join us today to hear how a young, outsider Indian girl in Chicago who was expected by her family to grow into a quiet, unassuming life, now regularly battles tech giants and thinks nothing of going to the White House to speak out for the rights and opportunities denied to young women. It's a great conversation about navigating cultural and familial expectations, how things that initially appear to be devastating losses can actually lead to some truly unexpected opportunities, and the beauty of living brave, not perfect.-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So my guest today is Reshma Saujani. She is the founder, the CEO of Girls Who Code, which is a really cool nonprofit that works really to close the gender gap in technology and completely change the image of what a computer programmer looks like and does. She's the author of three books, including the latest Brave Not Perfect. And along with her TED Talk, she's really sparked this worldwide conversation about how we're raising girls. Funny enough, similar to me, Reshma actually began her career as an attorney. Then she really moved into a very activist place. In 2010, actually, She kind of surged onto the political scene as the first

Indian American woman to run for US Congress. And it was that experience that really awakened her to the gender gap in computing and in classes firsthand. When she saw that in New York City schools, that led her to start Girls Who Code, which is this seven-week summer immersion program that really powerfully inspires and educates and equips young women with the computing skills to major in CS and related fields at a rate that's 15 times the US national average, which is pretty amazing. In today's conversation, we explore this, but we also really go deep into Reshma's story, the early moments and awakenings and stumbles and some really tough points that shaped her and led her to devote herself in a really powerful way to being the voice of people who she just sees as being unserved and stepping out in a powerful way and advocating on their behalf. And sometimes that means even building big,

powerful organizations to make that happen. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

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Grew up in Chicago area? Mm-hmm. Chattahoochee, Illinois. Right. And your parents actually came, did they come straight to that area sort of like in the early 70s? So they basically, so they came here as refugees. I was born in Berwyn. So that was right outside the city.

So we kind of lived, it's funny, my father actually took me there, my son, about a year and a half ago to see like the apartment that we first came to when we were, yeah, from the hospital. So it was like a little bit outside the city. And then when they made a little bit of money to afford to buy their first house, they bought it in Schaumburg, Illinois. Got it. So they came from Uganda originally, but they're Indian? Yes, Gujar it. So they came from Uganda originally, but they're Indian? Yes, Gujarati. So two generations of my family, born and raised in Uganda, like the British had brought the Indians over to build the railroads from Kampala to Mombasa. Right.

So that's how my family ended up there in the 1900s. Right. And it was because Uganda was under sort of like UK until early 60s, right? Yeah. And then everything sort of like reverted back. And then Idi Amin comes in in the beginning right? Yeah. And then everything sort of like reverted back. Right. And then Idi Amin comes in in the beginning of the 70s and then everything changes, especially if you're Indian living in Uganda. It was not a good time. Yeah.

And it's so funny we're talking about this because I have been working with this researcher to start kind of like going deep into my family history because I feel like there's so much I don't know. Like I've read about it and I've watched like Mississippi Missala, The Last King of Scotland. Right. of like going deep into my family history because I feel like there's so much I don't know. Like I've read about it and I've watched like Mississippi Missala, The Last King of Scotland. And then, you know, my parents, you know, I think it's still painful for them. So like I'll get little bits and pieces of their story, but I actually had someone interview my dad and we were saying how like it's almost like he was able to say so much more with an interviewer than when I asked him. Yeah, right. Because the layers of also, I mean, we're so guarded with family.

But also, I would imagine with your child, especially if you come out of something that was really traumatic. I wonder, have you ever actually talked to him about his decision to share or not share certain things? No. I don't even think we talk about our feelings like that in the same way. I'm almost, like, curious to read, you know, or hear the interview that he did because I feel like I'll learn more than I ever have in 40 years, you know. And my father and I are close. You know, we have a really good relationship. I also think, like, culturally, you know, in Indian families, at least my family, you don't show a lot of emotion. You don't hug, you don't kiss, you don't

talk about those things. So he's never said how painful or how scared they were. I mean, they were in their like early twenties, you know, when they came to a country where they didn't speak the language, they didn't have any friends here or anybody that they knew. My mother was pregnant. Like, it was like, and they had literally come with, like, no money. And they had lost everything where they had seen so much violence and basically just got on a plane, and they were the lucky ones, where the rest of their family were spread in different refugee camps,

like, across the world. So, and what's crazy is he's never talked to me about this. Yeah. I mean, there's gotta be a lot of rich conversations, but also kind of like delicate conversations at the same time. What about your mom? Oh,

she's worse than him. She's even more reserved. She wouldn't even, even when I was trying to, when I was getting some of this down, she wouldn't even talk to the interviewer. Like, it was just, you know, she's much more reserved. And like, you know, every time she's like so annoyed by even my career, I feel like she's always like, why don't you just be a lawyer?

And like, why are you putting yourself out there all the time? Or why are you telling everybody about you? Like, it's just not done in her mind. Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting, sort of like the cultural expectations that we move into adulthood with. And some of it is just what our parents individually are in the local culture. And then some of it also goes back generations, sort of like the broader culture from where we come. So you were growing up outside of Chicago. From a really early age, it sounds like you had developed this heart for service and activism. Yeah. Where's that coming from?

Or where is it like, do you have a memory of it first touching down? Yeah. I mean, I think for me it was I came to activism out of not feeling like I wasn't accepted. So, you know, growing up in the 80s, you know, it's just, it's always so, it was so different than today and in some ways similar. Like, you know, I was very conscious that I wasn't white. You know, like my friends would go to church and I'm a Hindu, right? And I'd have to explain why I wasn't going to church. And I'd almost like pretend that I did it, you know?

My name was Reshma, Reshma. And everyone else's name was like Rachel or Rebecca or Beth or Susan. I remember, right, I would go to the Kmart and want to find one. I was obsessed with finding one of those keychains with my name on it. And so all these, or when my mother would wear a sari and put a bindi on her head, or when friends would come over and we just had Indian food. I mean, all this stuff was just so like, I just didn't want them to do any of that. I just wanted to fit in and be like everybody else at school because it wasn't cool, right? To be different. And I really, really, really, really, really struggled with that. And I think also, it's funny, I think because my parents,

I've been thinking a lot about this more lately. It's like my father was always ashamed of his accent. He used to go to Toastmasters every weekend. Oh, no kidding. So we didn't really speak Gujarati at home. And so I also think that they were trying to fit in and belong and be safe as well. And so there wasn't this encouragement of the culture, of the language, of saying, you know, my father wasn't telling me, be proud of who you are. And, you know, that wasn't the message. Yeah, it was more about assimilation. Yeah. And that's what the 80s was about. It was

all about assimilation. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, I think I'm the first year of Gen X, which is an interesting generation because we're the generation that's sort of like just not really defined. And we're sort of like, you know, we were the generation that just kind of was supposed to kind of like take whatever was given us. And it's interesting to see what's happening with a lot of us, I think, now in the last decade. Yeah. I feel like there's a lot of identity rising up and reclamation of sort of like where we came from. I think that's right. I certainly feel that way.

Even little things. Like lately, for so long, if I'd go to Starbucks and they'd say, what's your name? I'd be like, I use my niece's name, Maya, because it would just be easier. And now I'm like, Reshma. And they're like, what? I'm like, R-E-S-H. And, you know, those little moments for me feel like I'm like kind of reclaiming that again. And it's not, you know, that's recent.

Yeah. It's interesting also, so when you come here and their focus is let's just kind of like fit in, but still they chose to name you Reshma. Mm-hmm. You know, rather than it could have been really easy to – or even, you know, like changed it, you know, slightly. Well, just go by this. Yeah. Go by Rachel.

Go by this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or go by that. But they were like on a name basis at least on like the core identity like who you are. Because my father – both of them changed their name. Oh, no kidding. Yeah. So my dad was Mukun, and he goes by Mike. I think he legally changed it to Mike.

And my mom's name was Madrula, and she goes by Mina. But you're right. And then my sister's name is Keshma. So they didn't actually name my sister. I need to ask my father about that, actually. It's good. It's an interesting point. And look, I don't think

they, I think we still, you know, they had these Indian families that they hung out with, and we did things together. And there was still, my mother put me in Indian dance. And so I still don't, I don't think they totally tried to deny the culture. And I've seen other families that were raised, you know, again, my peers peers whose parents were much more to the other extreme. I think they were still trying to hold on to what they could. Yeah. I mean, when you think about your kids, you know, fundamentally you want them to be happy, to be fully expressed, to flourish. But also even more than that, as a parent, you want them to be safe first and foremost.

And when you start to think about like how would their identity be, you know, relate to my desire to have them safe, it's a quirky, interesting, sometimes not entirely logical decision-making process. Such a good point. You're right because I think everything was about safety. Yeah. I think for them it was like don't call attention to yourself. You know what I mean? Like you're going to fit in and, you know, I'm going to keep you safe. And I think there's a little bit of sadness, right,

around having to give up some of your culture for that. Yeah. It sounds like, though, even as a young kid, even as you're trying to fit in, you're also still a vocal kid who believes strongly in things. Yes. So, you know, like you stood out. 100%. I remember one time somebody called me a name when I was young. I threw a rock at them and I told my dad.

He made me go find the rock. I was – I had – yes. I always – I was a tough kid. I fought back. And I wasn't afraid to fight back. And I – but I wrestled with, again, my parents' voice in my head, which was like, don't call attention to yourself. Don't call attention. Like, let it go, let it go, let it go.

And so I think I had these different, like, push and pull in myself of, like, I was a crusader. I was the person who was standing up for myself. But at the same time, I was being told to not be that person. Yeah. That's got to be tough to reconcile, especially when you're that age. And like the most important thing for everyone at that age is kind of like, I just want to be accepted. Yeah. And at the same time, I see things that I need to say something about.

Well, it's funny. I was having this thought last night where, you know, oftentimes I look at my life and I'm like, God, I'm having so many battles right now. You know, like in terms of like. Present day battles? Yeah. Like, God, I'm having so many battles right now, you know, like in terms of like – Present-day battles? Yeah, meaning like, you know, even in my – like right now, Girls Who Code, like, you know, I battle the status quo. I battle tech companies. I battle for diversity. And so I'm not afraid to say something to the White House, to speak out against 60 Minutes, to do things.

And there are moments where I'm like, God, like I am fighting with a lot of powerful people right now for justice. And it's hard, you know, but oftentimes that is my nature to do that. And so it feels inauthentic sometimes when I have to just not do that because it's not the right time, it's not the right moment, it doesn't make sense, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I think as a kid, right, it felt, it was always hard for me to, it was harder for me to be quiet than it was to fight, if that makes sense. Yeah. I mean, it's such an interesting and nuanced point though, right? Because a lot of people will feel something, they'll see something they want to say about, they'll want to actually step up and say like, no, this isn't right, or this is the way things should be, whatever it is. But just the fear that goes along with doing that is one thing, but also the fear of being publicly judged for doing that and maybe pushed out overcomes whatever inner yearning is to actually speak out.

But if you're kind of internally wiring is like on an identity level, I am the person who says something. Yeah. There's that battle, right? Because to fully express the essence of who you are, you've got to be that person. But at the same time, you know it's going to bring heat your way. Absolutely. I feel that's like my life. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. I feel, and it doesn't feel good. You know, I would say like, obviously I speak all the time about bravery. It doesn't always feel good to be brave. And I think that's what people

sometimes get confused, right? Like when you are speaking out against something that you see, you don't feel like a superhero. You might feel, you know, you're still going to feel all those other things of the heat that's coming your way, the judgment, the dislike, all of that. So oftentimes when you are being brave, it doesn't always feel good. Yeah. But it's the right thing. Yeah, and I think that's such an important distinction, right?

I think we're often told that we feel like we're just on fire and alive and doing, but sometimes it's just brutal, even though you know it's the right thing. I think most of the time it is. Yeah. Did you feel that sense of brutality, that sense of angst, even at a young age when you were sort of like standing up and speaking your part? Yes, definitely. How do you deal with that at a young age?

You know, I think I had, one of the things for me was when, you know, I was growing up in a neighborhood that was very not diverse and it was very white and it was really hard being an Indian kid and having friends and being yourself. And so a lot of us during that time that were in that moment, I had like a bunch of other friends that were at different schools that were brown that I then hung out with. So I never felt isolated, if that makes sense. I found my tribe, I found my community, I found my sisterhood outside of my school. And I think that's what really helped. So, like, I was, you know, the activist kid.

I was speaking up for what was right in school. I mean, I'd have had a lot of friends for it. But when I went home, I had this group of girlfriends that, like, I had. And I had a life. And I had boys who liked me. And, you know, I had all the things that you needed as a teenager. But, you know, it's funny. I missed out. I had a life, and I had boys who liked me, and I had all the things that you needed as a teenager. But it's funny.

I missed out on it. I never went to home. I missed out on homecoming. I didn't go to football games. I didn't have that typical high school experience. Yeah. It's funny. Just looking at your face and your body language right now, do you feel that as a loss, or

are you okay with it? Yeah, I do. I do feel that as a loss or are you okay with it? Yeah, I do. I do feel that as a loss. My sister and I were just talking about this actually recently about, you know, our niece. And yeah, I feel, I do feel that as a loss. I don't know how I could have though experienced it in any other way though. Yeah. It's sort of like, this is just part of the equation. When you say yes to this, you realize you're also saying no or not now or something different to it. It It's like there's a whole thing that goes along with it. And I think for those people that are listening that kind of had that similar experience,

I think the thing is I just pray that my child will have that. That he will be in a community where there is a lot of diversity and acceptance and he won't be able to have these two different worlds that he's, like, living in and trying to reconcile. And I don't think, I pray that I don't think he will. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting to have this conversation in New York City where we both work and live also, because I think my sense is, you know, having, like, raised a kid who's never in college in the city, it's funny, she was in public school for a solid chunk of her years, where I don't know if she was the minority, but it was definitely just an incredibly diverse group of kids, which was the most incredible thing. And I remember when she was a lot younger and

when I was a lot younger, using the phrase, yeah, I'm so glad she doesn't see color. And now, older in life, I'm like, no, I'm so glad she does see color. Yeah. And actually just embraces all of it. And that's actually the lens which is so much more valuable. But I think in New York City, it's just a part of our daily existence. It's just – but it – If you go to public school. See, I feel like it's still – it's, you know, it's one of the things that we really do at Girls Who Code is we try to – our school systems, New York City school systems are more segregated than any other school district. It's insane, you know?

Yeah. No, that's kind of true, actually. It's an unusual school system here. Yeah. So you end up going to college undergrad at U of I, Urbana-Champaign. What were you doing there? Like the focus was what? I was majoring in speech communications and poli-sci, and I was just trying to get through it.

Yeah. I really wanted to go to University of Michigan. My parents couldn't afford it. I remember I was so mad at my dad. My dad's like, this, you know, we talk about this and he's like, this still to the day, that one thing that I wasn't able to give you. But I just wanted to get out. Like I knew growing up that I was this, like I was meant to be somewhere else. You know, like this wasn't my, where I would like, there was something else out there for me.

And so I was trying to like hurry it up in my experience at U of I, you know, graduate first in my class. Right. And then just move on and get to New York as quickly as I could. Yeah. So New York was the aspiration. You know, I went, I went to a trip and to New York when I was at the, at U of I and I loved it. I must've been 18. It was part of this Asian American Studies Conference. I got an opportunity to come here and I was just, the minute I landed, I was like, whoa. Yeah, I loved it. Yeah. And it sounds like also law touched down pretty early in your life. Always. I remember I saw this movie,

The Accused, and I saw Kelly McGillis. Yeah, of course. And yeah, I mean, I think it was back to that narrative of I always knew that I wanted to fight for the underdog, right? And I always thought that I always was like I was in debate. I was in Model UN, like I had a big mouth. So it felt like the law, the legal profession was like for me. And so that was I I always say like, I never wanted to be a firefighter. I always wanted to be a lawyer or in public service

doing, you know, fighting for people. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of

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Flight risk. So you go from U of I to next step is Harvard. Yeah. Studying public policy. Yeah. Was that still in the back of your mind? This is still preparation for my career as an advocate? What happened was I was obsessed with going to Yale Law School.

And I was like pretty much first in my class at U of I, you know, 3.999. But I could not crack the LSAT. I just kept just doing bad. And, but I was like, and I'd gotten into Northwestern and all these other schools, but I was like, no, I am going to Yale. Like this was just, it was just, it had to happen. And then I don't know, I feel like I like walked by a counselor's office and saw an ad for like master's in public policy at Harvard. And at the same time, I was an activist in college. So I liked politics. And in my mind, I thought that the Kennedy School was like, you know, where you go learn how to be a politician, right? So I applied on a whim. I got in. And I was like, awesome. This is like my ticket to Yale. I'll just go, instead of going straight to law school, I'll go to the Kennedy School, get my Harvard degree.

And then, of course, they're going to let me in. Right. So in your mind, this is just the thing that helps get you to Yale. Right. And, you know, I didn't know anybody who went there. I had no idea. What was it about it? What was that stamp?

What did it mean to you? I think that, like, again, I was this, like, you know, middle class, working class kid who had really big ambitions. And I thought that that Ivy League degree would credentialize me. And it would get me to where, you know, I always joke. I was like, every Supreme Court justice, every president, every, you know, went to Harvard or Yale. So, like, that must be went to Harvard or Yale. So like that must be where I should go. And my parents did not understand. My dad was like, you cannot not go to law school straight. What is this Kennedy School? No. And he cut me off. And I remember when I went to Harvard, I had to like, I was sleeping on a friend's couch. I had like

no money, no resources. I like begged the school to, you know, get me a Perkins loan. I mean, I just, and then, you know, so, but I was just obsessed that I had to go to Yale law school, that I had to get this degree and it was going to open up every door and like what I was meant to do in life. Right. This is the golden key for you. This was it. Yeah. This was it. So you're, so you spent, it's two years for Eckhart, right? So you're basically doing anything that you can just to get through that. Yeah.

Accumulating debt at the same time? Accumulating debt, but loving an experience. Okay. I mean, I loved it, but I was, I was probably the youngest kid in my class. I don't even think I had, I don't even think I could like drink. I don't even think I was 21 when I got there. Right. And you know, Kennedy School is a lot of people in their mid-career.

Right. A lot of people come back for it. Right. But it was amazing. I remember, like, at the IOP forum, there would be all these senators and world leaders. I remember I saw John F. Kennedy Jr. walking down the, you know, it was just, I was just, my little Midwestern brain was just blown, blown away. And it felt so right.

It was the best two years of my life. I met my mentor, Leon Higginbotham Jr., who was one of the first black federal jurists. Like, I met this incredible group of friends. It was awesome. Yeah. It was amazing. So when time comes for you to just breeze your way into Yale, though. Yeah. Didn't quite happen that way. No, no, no.

So my mentor was supposed to write me a recommendation, Leon Hagenbotham Jr. He dies before he writes me a recommendation. I'm, like, devastated because I've lost him. And, you know, I didn't get my recommendation, right? And I was so – so I somehow – I meet, meet like the dean at the funeral. I get an appointment. I like get there. And by now, like I have, you know, gotten into every school. George, I mean, amazing, amazing top 10 schools. I am obsessed with going to Yale Law School. And he was like, look, I can't let you into the school, obviously, but if you go to any of those other schools you got into, you get in the top 10%, I'm pretty sure you will be able to transfer here.

And I was like, okay. So say yes to Georgetown because I love D.C. I love politics. Basically spent a year, no friends, no life, no nothing. Just heads down. Just heads down. Again, first in my class. Should have stayed there.

I probably would have clerked in the Supreme Court and transferred to Yale. And now I'm at my dream. And it's happened after four years. Right. So after this buildup, after you like thinking you had this picture of exactly what it's going to be like there, all the amazingness, dreams versus expectation versus reality. Oh yeah. I just get there and I proceed to like party for two years. You know what I mean? Like all of that. And I feel I just, I'm intimidated, right? My father used to always say to me,

Rashmi, you're so much better as like a big fish in a small pond rather than a small fish in a big pond. And he was right. Like I'd kind of, I was the smartest kid at, you know, I was like, and then I get there and I'm like, there's all these people there and I'm just like, who went to private school and whose families are this and that and that. And I'm like, I just, I was intimidated and I had so much imposter syndrome there. You know, I made the best friends of my life. I had an amazing time there, but it was a bit of a blur because I had put so much energy and time and life. I had missed out on so much of life getting to this moment that like now I'm here and I'm kind of exhausted. Yeah. There's also, I mean, there's a quirk about legal education and the entire practice of law.

So I have a very past life as a lawyer as well, which is that you have one chance the first year of law school to make this thing called quote law review. And most schools it's top 10%. Yale, I think is something you can write on, but it's a weird profession in that, that as well as if you graduate from one of the top schools in the country or the world, those things follow for your entire profession. You know, like 10, 15 years later, when you're looking to make partner in a firm, they want to know, well, where are you at Law Review and what was your law school? Because they want people to be able to look at all the roster of all of the partners and know that they were all Harvard, Yale, and Law Review and this and that. I'm not aware of any other career where that follows you like that. Yeah. See, it's so funny. I don't feel like it matters anymore.

Maybe I'm being naive, but maybe in my world, it's less of a credential. I feel like when I'm hiring, I'm not like, oh, great, you went here. I want to see your hustle. I want to see your hard work. But I'm not in the law, right? But you're right. I'm sure it still plays a huge role in that space. To me, the lesson was two things. So on one hand, the lesson was never give up.

I never gave up. Everybody thought I was crazy that I had this obsession with Yale. I never got up and I went there and I got my degree from there. The flip side of that lesson was I would still be doing exactly what I'm doing today if I had a degree from Georgetown or Northwestern or CUNY or whatever else. Yeah. But I mean, isn't that both the light side and the dark side of grit? Yeah. You know, is that if you have it, you will do everything to get that thing that you have in your mind that you want. Yeah. everything to get that thing that you have in your mind that you want. But along the way, you may just completely intentionally blind yourself to a whole bunch of other

adjacents or tangents that would have been equally, if not more, interesting and fruitful along the way. 100%. Well, this is why I feel like, and I talk about this in my book, I think part of it is like, what's your ledge? What's the thing that you, and that was always my ledge. I have a different ledge now, but I think sometimes you have to revisit it and say, does that thing that I'm obsessed about still relevant to me today? Is it still the thing that I want today? And I never checked in with myself over those four or five years from the time I was a junior in high school, right? Or I'm a junior in college or to when I was finishing the Kennedy School was like, does it still matter as much? Yeah.

Like, does it really matter as much? Yeah. I don't think we're given, as much as we're taught sort of like domain expertise, we're not given sort of a process for intelligent self-reflection and self-inquiry. I think a lot of us seek it out later in life, but earlier in life, there's no formal education really that I've seen that gives you that. Well, here's how to pause and sort of like inquire into yourself. Like, is this the thing that I thought it would be? And do I want to continue to invest myself in it? Yeah. I don't think there's any, there's any, I don't even, yeah, there's no process for that. It's such a, I mean, it's such a, and I think that that really matters, especially at this, at the mid part of your career where you need to, you need help with a little bit of that self-reflection because you also, kids, marriage, life, bills, et cetera. You don't have the time. I don't, I always joke. I'm like, I don't have time for midlife crisis because when would that happen? When could I do that? It's like I've got a window three months from now for like these four days.

I can pencil that in from like 12 to 8 on Tuesday. Yeah. So you go from there. You graduate Yale. And then for somebody who has an activist heart, you make the logical next step choice. Right. The worst. So, yeah.

So basically what happened when I was at Yale is Bush v. Gore happens, right? Right. 9-11 happens. All these huge moments happen. And so if you want to do public service, I'm like, I'm not working for President Bush, though that looks like a very different decision today. And I have all this debt. And I think law school actually does a very bad job of laying out your options.

And I thought, all right, I'll go work for the man. I'll pay off those loans in a year or two. And then I'll go do what I want. And that does not play out that way. I get that job. I hate it. So you start out in a large firm, right? Large firm. New York City.

Yes. And wonderful institution, which just wasn't for me. Right. Right. And then I make that bad decision to another bad decision where I could then decide, okay, I'm going to leave here and I'm going to go work in corporate law. I'm going to go work at a hedge fund. I was teased like in the early 2000s, working at a hedge fund was like working at Google today. It's where all the smart people went, liberal people went. It wasn't seen as like an evil thing to do.

And it seemed as a way to like, you know, to learn and hate it there. And now I'm like, I don't feel like a spring chicken anymore. I'm in my early 30s. I am just like stuck. So how many years of practice were you actually in at that point? I think it was at Davis Pope for a handful of years. And I was working in finance for like a handful of years.

Remember, I was a little bit later when I graduated law school. So you're like five, six, seven years in, something like that. Yeah. But meanwhile, you're also, I mean, as much as you're becoming disenchanted, you've also got a massive amount of debt. A massive amount of debt. And you've got to a certain extent the job that everybody looks at from the outside in and it's like badass job, big paycheck, power.

Like this is the job that everybody else wants when they're coming into the space. Yeah. And I have an immigrant family who I still help. Right. Right? So there's so many – this is why I get so annoyed when people judge other people's choices. Because the thing is, is that a lot of people who get to go into that public interest job, they have the resources to do that. And a lot of us have to kind of go make certain choices for a handful of years to get to the place that we can actually get to where everybody, whether ourselves and our

family and our debt is in that place where they can actually go do that. And it's not easy. And I don't think that, I just don't, you know, I don't feel like I really understood the loan forgiveness stuff and like, you know, how to take a step back and say, all right, I have $300,000 in loan debt. If I work at the ACLU, what will it look like? Okay, I work at Davis Pope. No one explained that to me. And so I think you end up making the wrong choices or the choices that you feel like you need to make. And maybe they're not even wrong in the moment because in the moment you're like, you know what? I've got a massive amount of debt. Maybe there are other people relying on me to help them out also. And in the moment, it feels right and maybe it is right. But maybe as the pain of sort of like a misaligned effort for years of life starts to build. The equation just changes. Totally. And I think you get stuck. Like I felt very, like how did all these years go by? And I feel, I just felt stuck.

Yeah. And it's harder. I remember like being at the finance firm or at Davis Polk and sending out my resume to an NAACP and just not even getting a call back. I always joke, I was like, you know, back then if I applied to be the CEO of Girls Who Code, I wouldn't have even gotten an interview. It seems as though those paths are often like not open, right? Once you're past a certain point, right, where people then establish you and see you as a corporate lawyer. Right. It's like you're the person who's on this side of that. Right, right.

So what happens that everything that there's a really big abrupt change? my side hustle is I'm working on campaigns. So I started this, you know, South Asians for Carry organization. I'm helping, you know, after 9-11, you know, Pakistani immigrants, you know, with, you know, their deportation proceedings. Like I am like, my night job is like my day job, right? Like I'm spending all of my time organizing, being an activist, like building an immigrant voices into the Democratic Party. And it just gets to be like too untenable. Like what the hell am I doing? Like I need to quit. And it's funny, I remember like my best friend calls me and as your best friend always calls when your life is like falling apart. And my friend Deepa was like, just quit. And she didn't say anything profound, but there was something about hearing those words at that moment that I was like, I'm going to quit.

And I remember hanging up with her and, like, the next day calling my dad and being like, Dad, I got to quit. And I remember him saying, you know, beta, finally. So I was like, wow. Was that the opposite of what you thought he was saying? Yes. Like, I'm staying in this job because I thought that you needed me to or wanted me to. And you're seeing how miserable I am. But we're not talking to each other, right?

And so that was it. And I started. And what was really in my heart was to serve. And there was going to be this open congressional seat. So I thought, and I was like, I'm going to go for it. Like this is it. Every, you know, I've for years, people have been saying, we need young women to run. We need young women to run. We need different voices. And like, great, I'm going to run. The moment that you told your dad and he was like, go for it. It's so fascinating to me, you know, like in part because sometimes we make these decisions

based on the expectations that other people very often our parents have about what's appropriate for the way we invest ourselves. But I think it's even more interesting when we realize that those expectations exist only in our head and they aren't actually real. Yeah. And how often we're not willing to even test whether they're real or not. And like the moment we do and you get a real answer, okay, so maybe it's validated that it is real, but when you get a real answer and it's like,

no, actually, there's so much freedom in that moment in time. Where I really see this whole idea play out a lot is with my friends that are moms. So we have a lot of mom guilt. Yeah. And I have girlfriends who haven't even gone on a date night with their husband, have never left their child alone. And they're exhausted, right? They're these high-powered attorneys, activists, and they're just burning the candle at both ends. And so in that point, they can't say to their kid, hey, you'd be okay if I go to dinner

with Alexi because I'm sure if the kid could talk, they'd be like, yes, go. So you're right. But in their mind, we've built up this narrative that, like, we can't leave. I'm a bad mom if I leave my child or if I go have a moment for myself or if I go for a run or if I, you know, if I make something that's seen as a selfish decision. And that's how it was with me and my dad. I thought that they had sacrificed so much, you know, in coming to this country and as refugees and their language, their name, their everything, you know, like Taco Bell was always a night out, like saving coupons at Target. And it was selfish of me to like leave this job where I'm making six figures to go do what I want to do because of them. And in reality, he never saw that decision

that way. But I never bothered to have that conversation. Like, you know, I again had this narrative in my head. And as I've now been in this work, I realized that that narrative was to protect my fear of failure and taking this risk of something and doing that. It was safer to tell myself. That story. Exactly. Yeah. Then go out there and just step into the abyss and see what happened. Yeah. If you're at a point in life when you're ready to lead with purpose, we can get you there. The University of Victoria's MBA in Sustainable

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You're gonna die. Don't shoot if we need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk So... Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. So when you actually say, okay, so decks are clear for me to walk away, was it clear what you wanted to walk into right away? Yeah. Yeah. I always wanted to serve. And it was like very clear for me that I wanted to make that decision. And, you know, when I first started thinking about running for office, you know, so I basically did what AOC did 10 years earlier, except, you know, she won, I lost. But when I was, you know, it became clear. So I started thinking about this congressional seat because the seat was going to be open. It soon becomes clear. And everybody, every political consultant, everybody is like, that's amazing.

You have the perfect story. You're the perfect person to run. And so I start getting excited about it and start making that plan in my mind and everything. And then it becomes clear that Congresswoman Maloney is not going to challenge Kirsten Gillibrand for a Senate seat, that she's not running. But now I've kind of made up my mind that I want this opportunity. So meaning she would still be an incumbent and a very strong one.

And a very strong one. Right. Very strong one. But in my mind, I'm like, wait a minute. She's been there for so many years. We want any new voices. Like, but back then, maybe there was, no, I don't even think that year there were any Democratic incumbents being challenged.

This year, almost 70% of them are. So 10 years ago. Yeah, it was a whole different landscape. You got to be nuts to do that. Were people telling you that or were they cheering you on? So every person who was like, you're an awesome candidate was like, oh, no, I'm sorry. Yeah, I can't do your mail. No, I can't help you.

I can't. Everybody abandoned me. The minute Congresswoman Maloney said she wasn't going to run. Everybody. So now I'm sitting here, but I want to try. And I am now starting to really believe that there needs to – this is crazy. It's democracy. We need to have – incumbents can't – no one owns seats.

Like, it's good for democracy for there to actually be a decision. So now it's not just about representation. Now it's about, about like even something bigger. A hundred percent. Yeah. Which is like so clear now today. But back then it was like, and my naivety about it,

right. Not being born and bred in like New York politics. I was like, wait, why aren't there more challenges? Like this is a, this is a good thing. Right.

But now I got nobody except like my, my boyfriend, who's now my husband, ragtag group of friends, and some ideas. And, you know, I start just piecing it together by people who are willing to kind of take that risk. It's actually one of the best campaign teams I've ever had because it was people who really just believed, you know, and really wanted to be a part of this. And we thought we could meet every voter, shake every hand. I used to walk around with this map in my wallet of like the congressional district and just used to just show people like, look, I like, get 10 voters here and 20 voters here and 50 voters here and 60 voters here. And I just convinced a lot of people that I could do it. So you go out there.

You run the whole campaign. Yeah. Things don't turn out the way you want them. First of all, the Democratic establishment hates me. Like, this was just, like, not done. I stepped out a lot. Now, mind you, I was a golden child. I spoke at every – Emily's List fundraiser.

I basically started – I was, like, a DNC youngest, you know, trailblazer. I was in the – you know, in that little world. Right. But now it was like, uh-uh. Like, you don't do this. And I pissed them all off. And I'd raised a lot of money. I'd raised like $1.4 million unheard of, right, for a challenge. I'd gotten like John Legend to do several concerts for me, Jack Dorsey. I mean, there was a lot of hype and I get clobbered.

I got like 19% of the vote. And I didn't understand. I would like stand at subway stops and, you know, they'd be like, I voted for you. I voted for you. And I learned that you just kind of say this to people. But in your mind leading up, I mean, to the day of the vote, you're like, we've got this. And I was just crazy. We had no endorsements. Like, you know, the New York Times would have an interview us for the race. I mean, I had no reason to, but I just felt the energy and, like, and this excitement.

And, you know, and, you know, and, yeah, we get clobbered. And it's devastating. And I didn't even have a, I remember I didn't even have a concession speech in my bag. And she was so mad at me for running that I also knew that like, wow, not only did I lose, but I now have somebody in an institution that's going to spend the rest of their life making sure that I'm paid back for the audacity, right, of challenging the institution. And it wasn't even close, right? Like if it was like, you know, 49, 51, okay.

Right. But like I couldn't even say I'm going to run again. Like it was – I got clobbered. Yeah. What's that like when you wake up the next morning just emotionally for you? It's devastating. I remember I was so – I just cried and cried and cried and cried. I didn't want to look at my phone because I knew that people would be laughing at me

and that I didn't even want to look. I mean, I knew, like, the articles and the Times and the Post or in the New York Observer or whatever it was would just be, thank God this was, like, a little bit before social media was as it is today. So I just couldn't. I don't know. And then I remember I went home to my little Lower East Side apartment. And my husband and my best friend were outside.

He was so sweet. He was building my campaign website for my next campaign. And I just wanted to die. I was just so – because I really wanted to serve. I was just so, because I really wanted to serve. I really just saw it. I saw myself and I felt like I'd met so many people and I had just let them down. And I didn't know how to face that. Yeah.

I mean, there's the public side, but then there's also just the internal, okay, so now that primary vehicle of me doing the thing I'm here to do has just been call the next day. Hey, great race. There's a city council race you should run for. You know, or great race. Like, here's this opportunity. There was none of that. It's not like, well, great first shot and, like, you know, keep at it and do this and that and build your way into it. It's kind of like, no, like, go away. Go away. Yeah.

And we're going to make it really hard for you to do anything decent. So where do you go from there? You know, it's funny. I think the thing that inspired me to write my book is, like, I realized that the next day I was devastated, but I wasn't broken. And I had thought for so long that if I tried something and it didn't work out, that it would break me. So that was a revelation for me.

And so I was like, okay, like, this didn't happen, but, like, I'm going to try again, or I'm going to build something. I'm going to, I'm going to do something. And it was also, for me, it was powerful because I was, I've never been so happy or as happy as I was those 10 months where I ran for office. Where you're campaigning with like your crew, your ragtag crew of people who are in there with you. And I was like, oh, I'm not going back to that financial services firm. I'm not going back to doing that. I'm going to dedicate my life to services.

Did you, while you were campaigning, was there any part of you, had you completely turned the page? Or was there any part of you, even like a fraction of 1% that said, you know what? Okay. So if this doesn't work out, I can like, I still have a degree from X, Y, and Z. And I still have a track record in this other field. Like I could go back if I really had to. No, I think what I was thinking about more was like, okay, imagine you lose. Will you be able to walk again? It was less about like, I never thought about plan B. I really thought I was going to win. God, it's like so beautiful in some ways looking back and thinking how damn naive I was. I just, I didn't have plan B.

I was going to Washington. Like that was it. I didn't think about it. And that's why, you know, I think in the aftermath, I was like, oh, whoa, who's going to hire me? What am I going to do? Because I also was like, I don't want to go back in the private sector. I don't want to do that. The one thing it, and so, you know, look, I ended up working for Bill de Blasio as his deputy public advocate, and I started building Girls Who Code. The one thing I think about was, you know, I always say

Girls Who Code would never have happened had it not been for that campaign, is that campaign taught me how to build something. I literally had to build an organization that was almost like a $1.5 million organization. I had to hire people. I had to build a message. I had to come up with a strategy. Like, I didn't have my immigrant parents helping me. My ragtag group of friends, none of them were in politics. I didn't have any help.

And that is what helped me build Girls Who Code because I knew how to build a movement. If that movement fails, I knew how to put something together. I knew how to be an entrepreneur. Right. It's like you got the education to switch from I am a service provider to I'm a founder. I am a creator of something. Grossy code. Of all the things that you could have stood behind at that point,

it seems like you walk out the door and you're probably seeing justice, rightly so. Why this? Well, it was funny. When I ran that campaign, we were like a tech candidate. So I was very attuned to the fact that I'm using Facebook or I'm using group text. And gosh, why are all these apps created by men, right? And then secondly, my district was like the Upper East Side and then Queensbridge Housing, right? Explain what that means for people who aren't in New York.

So Queensbridge Housing is like one of the largest public housing projects, right? And so you go there and there's like one computer in the basement of a church, right? And the kids there had such a hard time being able to really grasp real opportunity. And what was interesting is like their access to technology was just as limited as kids' access to technology in the Upper East Side. So I'm asking questions afterwards like, wait, are we teaching kids to code? And like, are girls learning? Where are the girls? And so when I kind of took a step back after my loss, I was like, you know,

I remember sitting there on my couch thinking, God, of all the things that I saw, what moved me? And I kept thinking about girls coding, girls coding, girls coding, which was weird because I wasn't a coder. And so I take this job with de Blasio and then I'm using my lunch hour and my nighttime to just meet with people and to learn about women in tech. And look, I had, you know, I'd always had a side hustle, even when I was working at a law firm, right? So this was very typical to me that like I had, I always had these. You do the thing that pays the bills and then you do the thing that you're passionate about on site and i spent two years just learning and it wasn't with

like i was like oh i'm gonna like i wasn't right after i lost i wasn't like oh i'm gonna start a non-profit teach girls to code it was like oh i'm gonna learn about this thing that i feel like has a lot of inequity around it and figure out if i can solve it. And I spent two years really learning about everything. And then after all of those conversations, did I say to myself, oh, there needs to be an organization. There needs to be something to teach girls to cope. Yeah. So it's like you're working as a public advocate.

And on the side, you're building this. You're learning everything you need to learn. You're ramping up until you hit a point where you're like, okay, it's time. Was there a thing that made you say it's time or was it a gradual evolution? Well, I think what was happening is that I was thinking that I wanted to run for public advocate. Mm-hmm. And I'm also realizing that this idea can't sit in the current public advocate's office because I didn't have confidence that they would do anything with it.

And so I'm like, okay, I guess I'm going to start a nonprofit and run for office at the same time. Because it was clear to me that that idea had merit, the Girls Who Code idea. And as Reshma does, I ended up launching these two things at the same time. What would it feel like to you to even launch one thing? I mean, it's funny. I don't even think I know what I would. Every point along your life, it feels like there's something inside of you which needs to fill all the space that's available.

Probably. I think my mind is too active. Yeah. And I just see a lot of things around me that I want to fix. And then I want to try to fix them. But you're right. Like even now, if I think about like I have three things going on, you know, and any one of those things is enough for one human to try to tackle.

But I'm often tackling two to three things at the same time. Right. So you start Girls Who Code. What's your intention when you first started? I'm thinking I'm going to take 20 girls in a conference room and teach them how to code for the summer and we're going to see what happens. I didn't file for my C3. I wasn't like, oh, I'm going to build a movement. I was like, I'm going to just teach 20 girls to code.

And that was, like, doable for me because at the same time, I'm launching this campaign for public advocate. And basically that summer is amazing. So you enrolled about 20 girls. 20 girls. High school age. High school age girls. And then I lose my public advocate race.

And I ran that public advocate race on this idea that I wanted to get every kid CS education, that that's the jobs of the future. You know, it's so funny. We're talking about all this stuff now that automation is going to, you know, is going to wreak havoc on our lives. And I come in third place. More votes than last time, 75,000 votes. That was good. But I come in third place. And now I'm really – I'm walking out of that race thinking I'm never going to get elected.

Like I'm just never going to get – I just never – like this dream that I have is just never going to get elected. Like, I'm just never going to get, I just never, like this dream that I have is never going to happen. And I'm saying to myself, you know what, like, fine, if you're not going to elect me to help teach kids and poor kids to code, I'm just going to do it myself. And I'm going to just, I'm going to run my organization. Because I had never really intended to be a nonprofit leader. I had this, I had a lot of feelings about nonprofits. They're too slow. You can't really make change. Like, but I, and at this point, we've only taught 20 girls to code when I, when I lose my election, right? We've just had one summer and we're about to start building again. And I basically had to like, and I have a board

and all of that, I was chairman of the board. I had to basically go to my board and convince them to just say, I want to run this organization. And I think for a lot of them, they're like, do you really? Like, do you really want – I remember one of my board members saying, is this your concession prize? And I had to really think about that, you know, because it wasn't obvious to me in my life that this was the thing that I wanted to do. But it was clear to me that this was the issue that I wanted to solve. Does that make sense? You know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's sort of like the, right. It's the mechanism versus like the quest or the outcome.

Right. And I was always getting caught up in the mechanism. No, that makes sense. So you go all in on this. Oh, I go all in. I put my head down for three years and I just blow that organization up. Okay. So now I have to ask. And that becomes this really big thing, which has now, tell me the scale of this right now.

I mean, we've taught 185,000 girls to code. We've reached millions in our videos and our projects and our movements. You know, I have 30,000 new college-age graduates that are majoring in computer science. I mean, we've changed the conversation. I mean, we're probably one of the largest, or if not the largest, girls kind of organization in the world. When you think about that, and this has been over four or five years? Yeah, seven years. Seven years.

What's that seven years been like for you on a personal level? A gift. To me, what? Just a gift. I mean, I feel like I actually, my life has purpose. Like I have girls that I just, I love. And like, you know, my, you know, the students that I've taught, I, they're going to be the ones that find a cure to cancer. They're going to be the ones that solve climate change. They're going to be the ones that every single thing that is wrong with our world right now, they're going to fix. And I just believe that girls are our healers and

our saviors. And I get to go to work every day and figure it out. And that is a gift. It's not where I thought my life was going to lead me. And as I always say to people, like, you have to be – but I'm grateful for all the failures that kind of took me closer to this moment. You know, it's funny. I did this event in Capitol Hill a couple of weeks ago, and I'm sitting there and just sitting there staring out the window just looking at the hill. And I was like – and the first time, I was like, this is exactly where I'm meant to be. I'm not meant to be in there. I'm meant to be in here. And, um, I think we just have to

remember that like life is long and like, I always thought there was, um, I made decisions based on the job that I think that I was supposed to have, not that, not the problem that I was meant to solve. And every day I wake up thinking about what is the best mechanism to solve this problem? I want to solve the leadership gap for women and girls. I want to solve the opportunity gap for people who are poor. And to me, the best way for me to do that at this moment is to be the CEO and founder of Girls Who Code and the author of Brave Not Perfect and not Congresswoman Sajani. Yeah. It's a really interesting language that you use, which is when you're talking about sitting in DC and having this realization that you didn't want to be in there.

You wanted to be in here. You didn't say out here. Like the thing that you're doing right now is the inside, is the real inside. Or is like on par. Yeah, 100%. I mean, listen, I think it's really, really, really hard to be in politics right now. Yeah, for sure. You spend most of your time shouting on Twitter.

And I just, I don't want to do that. Like I feel like that we have to bring people together. We have to create, we have to build things. And listen, and I also think that look at these amazing women like AOC and Ayanna Pressley and, you know, Rashida and I, there's just Nancy Pelosi. Like there's just some, they got it. You know what I mean? Like they got that piece, right? Then you need women in here that are doing this piece. And it's all of us together. Right? And it's almost like where can I most effectively move the needle for women and girls right now? Now I'm not saying that that's forever, but I'm saying like right now, this is it. Yeah. It's like the current mechanism is this

particular thing. And for you, it's almost like it's not the code that you care so much about. It's what it gives these girls and women. 100%. 100%. And like the confidence and the bravery and the opportunity to be a changemaker. And like, you know, this was very clear for me. It is very hard as the daughter of refugees to watch what's happening with the immigration conversation right now. Like I think about my father and having, you know, them being in Uganda and having 90 days to leave where they'd be shot on spot. If they were, if this was today, they would be shot on spot. Because we as a nation wouldn't have had the courage to let them in because we have the wrong leaders who are making those decisions. And, you know, as I spent a lot of time shouting and screaming and just crying, quite frankly, at the situation right now, you know, I remember like two months ago I said, I'm done.

And I just literally got on a plane with like six badass women from my organization and we went to the border. And we started talking to Syrian girls in Jordan and figuring it out ourselves. And, like, I can do that. Like, I can do that as the founder of Girls Who Code. I can try to do my part to use my platform to make a difference for some of those young women. And that's all I want to do. Yeah, like the most direct path to impact. Yeah.

You brought up your book a couple times, Brave, Not Perfect. We actually touched in a lot of ways on a lot of the way that we teach people, the difference in the way that we teach people who identify with different genders to embrace uncertainty, to embrace failure, to embrace risk, and how we don't normalize it across the board. So true. I mean, we just don't, we coddle our girls, we protect protect them we wrap them with bubble wrap and it often starts in the name of protecting you from physical danger so out of a friend of mine who has a baby girl and she was walking behind her she's teaching her how to walk and she was saying be careful honey be careful honey and then she's like and then your face popped up in my head and i was like uh go baby go baby

but it's that little switch and i was just i was in the park the other day and like, even just, you know, listening to someone be like, honey, don't get your dress dirty. Be careful. You know, we just put that on this morning. And you just don't hear mothers and fathers saying that to their sons, right? So it's just, it's, it starts in the name of a physical harm and it continues in emotional harm. I, you're bad at gymnastics, so I'm going to pull you out and put you into soccer. I was speaking in D.C. a few days ago, and this amazing dad raised his hand. He said, you know, my daughter started going to robotics class. In the first class, she loved it.

Second class, she struggled a bit. So she came home crying. She said, Mom, Dad, I don't want to go to robotics anymore. My wife's instinct was to say, okay, honey, you don't have to go anywhere. But I was like, no. And he was't have to go anywhere. But I was like, no. And he was like, what should I do? I was like, you take her to robotics every single day, and then you find another thing she's bad at, and you sign up for that too. There's something about hearing our girls cry, seeing emotion from them that makes us want to protect them from that fear, that feeling of rejection and failure. And so they don't know

what that feels like anymore. You think about Serena Williams' coach. For most of her life, she sat at the edge of her ability in a coach telling her to do it again, do it again, do it again, do it again. And it was never personal. And that's why she's the greatest athlete of all times. So if we want to build the greatest athletes of all times in our girls, they have to sit at the edge of their ability and critical feedback and someone telling them to do it again, do it again, do it again, do it again. Yeah. It just has to be a bigger and bigger part of the conversation. Yeah. And when I've had this conversation in the past, I would say as a father of a daughter.

Yeah. And the pushback was, well, but you should just feel this way no matter what. And it's an interesting point, right? Because in theory, yes. And at the same time, I think as a father of a daughter, I feel it more viscerally or personally. But yes, I feel for all people. But I also look out at the world. And I think to myself right now, we are in need of solutions on a level that there's so much that needs to be innovated and improved and changed and impacted in the world. And that requires the ability to step into the void, to fail repeatedly, to take risk, not physical harm, but emotional and psychological, to be in that space where it's

super uncomfortable. And we need 100% of all of us to be in there. And I'm okay with you saying that. I had this, we just had our staff retreat a week ago, and this young man stood up and he said, you know why I'm here? I'm here because I watched how hard my mother, my mother could have been a NASA scientist. And I watched how hard she went,

how much she put her dreams aside and how she just wasn't given the opportunity to live up to her fullest potential. So now every day that I'm here to fight for so that other girls can. So whether it's your mother or it's your daughter, I'm okay, right? With you coming to this moment, coming to being a feminist, coming to this realization through your own experience, because that's often how this happens. And it's interesting. I think that this generation of young men, they're so much more woke because they're so much more attuned to it. And maybe it's because of the relationships that they have or that they're looking at

their mothers or they're seeing what their sisters go through. And they're recognizing their privilege, you know what I mean, in a way that I think is quite powerful and quite beautiful. Yeah, no, I agree with you there. So as we're sitting here in this container of good life projects, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? I think, I mean, I guess the first thing I came to is to live a good life, live your life brave, not perfect.

I really believe, Jonathan, in like if we can unlearn perfectionism and orient ourselves towards bravery. And I don't mean like the bravery to like go run for president or run for Congress. I mean like the bravery to like go to your doctor's appointment because suddenly it's become too selfish to go to take care of ourselves. Like if you can start putting yourself first and start thinking about like your truth, I think that we will be more joyful. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes. And while you're at it, if you've ever asked yourself, what should I do with my life? We have created a really cool online assessment that will help you discover the source code for the work that you're here to do. You can find it at sparkotype.com. That's

S-P-A-R-K-E-T-Y-P-E.com. Or just click the link in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, be sure to click on the subscribe button in your listening app so you never miss an episode. And then share, share the love. If there's something that you've heard in this episode that you would love to turn into a conversation, share it with people and have that conversation. Because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold. See you next time. We'll be right back. You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

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