Good Life Project - Brené Brown: Vulnerable, Brave and Awake [Best Of].

Episode Date: August 21, 2018

Brene Brown (http://brenebrown.com/) and I met a few years back while speaking at an event. We clicked immediately, grabbed lunch and laughed a lot. I asked her to come and share a bit of her journey with our Good Life Project community. The conversation that unfolded left me changed.Brown’s fascination with what she calls wholehearted living eventually led her to explore how we dance with shame and vulnerability, and how we navigate criticism, and awaken to our own power and potential. How we become brave, awake and alive. She's since written numerous books, including, Daring Greatly (http://brenebrown.com/books/), Rising Strong (https://amzn.to/2vvqvnE) and Braving the Wilderness (https://amzn.to/2M2YWfQ).I asked her to join me on Good Life Project in October 2012 and the conversation that unfolded moved us both to tears at various points. Brene was so beautifully real, raw, candid and wise. Every part of that conversation is as relevant today, maybe more so given the current climate, than it was the day we talked.We first aired this as a video conversation in October 2012. Click here to watch the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=Sd3DYvBGyFs). I'm so excited to share this "Best Of" episode with you today.-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Brene Brown and I first met maybe eight-ish years ago when we were speaking at the same conference and then we kind of clicked immediately, ended up grabbing a bite together. And we've been sort of like weaving in and out and following each other and chatting here and there about everything from life to obsessive desires to listen to Rush music. And a couple years back, we sat down, or I sat down with Brene, and we had this really deep conversation about shame, vulnerability, uncertainty, finding your voice standing up, and what happens when you do that, and how to let your bigger, deeper truths out. That conversation has only become more important, more relevant over the

years. And as we do generally every year, these last couple of weeks of August, we like to bring back conversations, some of the most provocative, most thought-provoking conversations that we've had over the years. And this conversation with Brene was certainly one of them, certainly something that is timeless and as time-sensitive as and important now as it was the day we first recorded it, if not more so. We thought this would be a great time to revisit that. So I'm going to leave you with this conversation with Brene Brown. You might want to even take a pen and pencil along with you because you'll probably find yourself pausing a whole bunch of times and taking notes.

I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X.

Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. of different things with you and I want to get into the current sort of like topic that you're exploring. But one of my fascinations with you is you. I have many fascinations is you present. So like when I first saw your TED talks, I was blown away, as were millions and billions of people. You present as this radiant, wise, snarky, funny presence. And I'm always curious when I see that somebody, somebody who's so strong and so powerful and so full of life. Is this something that you've sort

of like stepped into later in life? Or were you the kid who sort of manifested this also? No, I was not a definitely I was not the kid. You know, I'm a shame and vulnerability researcher. So we teach what we have. It comes from somewhere, right? And I think what I stepped into was understanding that the weird, introverted, pattern-seeing person that I was, what I stepped into is a sense of, I like that person. And I want to be that person. But I think I dreaded being that person growing up. I think I thought, something's off base because it's not like, you know, I grew up watching, I went to Greece 25 times when it came out.

You know, like I wanted to be that person. I wanted to be Olivia Newton-John with a cigarette and a cat suit, you know, winning over John Travolta. I didn't want to be the, I didn't think, you know, I'm awesome. I'm 13. I'm going to be a qualitative researcher and study things that scare the shit out of people. Right on. You know, I thought, like, I want to date with a quarterback.

Yeah, because that's how I was raised. And so the things about me that I love now were painful probably then. Like I've always seen things in patterns. And I didn't know that there was like a job. That's what qualitative researchers do. So I just thought maybe I was a part of the underworld or something. I thought it was weird. And I didn't fit in really.

I didn't have a sense of belonging. I mean, which is probably a more common experience than most people own up to. Yeah, I think that makes me in the majority for sure. Yeah. I just, yeah. So at what point do you start to realize in your life that in fact that does make you in the majority?

When I started doing this work. I mean, I think that's the gift of doing this work, I mean, I think that's, that's the gift of doing this work is that I know no matter how bleak the feeling, how desperate the feeling, how weird the experience or smell or idea that none of us are alone. Um, some, I did a radio show on Wisconsin public radio a couple of days ago and a caller called in and shared a Thich Nhat Hanh quote with me, um, that just brought me to my knees. It said, um, our purpose, and I'm kind of probably going to butcher it a little bit, but our sole purpose here is to get over the illusion of our separateness, you know? And I think that's what

my work is like. We're all in this together. And I think that's what my work is. We're all in this together. And I had no idea that the things that made me feel so much on the outside were the things that would ultimately, when I stepped into some self-worth, be the things that connected me the strongest to other people. Does that make sense? Yeah. I mean, I think it does.

I'm curious also whether it was an evolutionary experience for you to realize this or whether there were moments, you know, were there sort of like decisive moments or experiences with people or things that made you say, okay, I'm starting to get that there's a different way to live in the world and I want to be a part of figuring that out. No, there was decisive moments. Yeah, I'm not like a slow unraveling kind of person as much as I would like to be a part of figuring that out? No, there was a decisive moment. Yeah, I'm not like a slow

unraveling kind of person as much as I would like to be. No, there was a moment. I mean, I can picture, I know what I was wearing. It was in November of 2006. I was at my wooden, red painted breakfast room table. I was sitting at the table. I was coding a bunch of new data, asking this new question for the first time, going back into the shame data and saying, well, table, I was coding a bunch of new data, asking this new question for the first time, going back into the shame data and saying, well, okay, I understand what shame is and I understand how that operates in our lives, but what about these men and women who are living wholeheartedly, like who are really all in, what do they have in common? And I had giant, you know, those post-it notes that are poster size. I had them all over my kitchen and my living room,

and I was writing down words, and basically what emerged from that process were two lists. Like, here are the behaviors that the wholehearted folks are engaging in, and here's what they are trying to let go of. Here is what they're trying to move away from in their lives. And the move away from list was, it was as if someone described me on a list like i was every i called it the shit list i was everything on that list um judgmental perfectionistic all work um not only no play

no rest but kind of disregard for play and rest and people who thought it was important so you're coming at it from this like science, like, let me just figure this out. And then you're looking at this and you're like, oh my, this is personal. Oh, I was devastated. I couldn't believe it. I just remember folding my hands up on the top of the table and putting my head down and just thinking. Because I think up until that moment

and then the work that followed, I trusted my professional self immensely, but didn't trust my personal self as much so I knew that I know I'm a good researcher and so I knew if these words were emerging like these qualities were important these choices doing something creative you know like that's a great example like creativity emerged is so important comparison emerged as the shame counterpoint to that and i was the most comparative person you could i mean every i was always comparing myself to other people and i was

scoffing at creativity like people would say hey do you want to go to a painting class with me or do you want a scrapbook and up until that moment i would say no i thought it was flaky and self-indulgent, and I'm not going to really do that kind of crap. I'm busy working. So yeah, there was a moment that shifted. And I actually want to kind of go a little bit deeper there, but before that, you've used the word wholeheartedness a lot.

Talk to me about that. What is it? What do you mean when you use that phrase? I was trying to figure out a word. I'm a grounded theory researcher, which means we develop theory from people's lived experiences. And then our primary job is to language it in a way that resonates with people. And so I was trying to figure out what's a word for people that I would describe as all-in, who are just really living and loving entirely.

And wholehearted is language in actually in the Book of Common Prayer in the Episcopal Church that we use. And there's this line that says, I have not loved you with my whole heart. And that was always very powerful for me when I said it. And so the word that came to mind was wholehearted. So which is kind of fascinating right there, too, because you're taking a term which comes from a place which is very not scientific. It's very faith based. Super faith based. And then you're bringing it into like your world, which is linear. Prove it or it doesn't matter what happens.

How do you measure that? No, it's true. And I got a lot of flack from it, too. From the academic community? Huh. Yeah. Just for the use of the term? Yeah.

You shouldn't name constructs things that are immeasurable. And so that was hard for me because, you know, one of the things I talk about in the TED Talk is that I had a little sign in my office when I was a doctoral student teaching that said, if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist. Right. And I loved thinking that we could live in that world. Now I have a sign above my study that says, if you can measure it, it's probably not that important.

I love it. Looks like the shadow side. It is the shadow side. And so I think I didn't care at that point. I just felt like I was onto something that was super important for me personally, and it resonated with me. And, you know would what else would you call it social adaptability it's not that's not what I was looking for I was

looking for wholeheartedness yeah and it's something that the common person yeah I mean I'm sure this there's enough ambiguity so that people can kind of like say like this is how I feel wholeheartedness applies in my world in my life but there's enough universality to the term that I think people just kind of get what it's about. Yeah, and I think that's my job as a researcher. Like, one of the things, I've never really talked about this before, but I think you're an interesting,

you'd be, as the uncertainty person, you'd be a great person to talk to about this, that there is one of the greatest losses, I think, that is happening in our world today is that academics are shamed for accessibility. I mean, it makes me teary eyed because it makes me think how much great information we're losing, even whether you buy into it or if it's real or not real, that we're losing the debate and the discourse because to be accessible is some kind of really like albatross it's like if you're accessible and people understand your work

that means you're not very smart um and so to me so basically you're writing only for people that are in rarefied air and and if you're if the average person on the street can understand there's something wrong with what you're doing. Right. And really, there's interesting journal articles that say the average academic journal article, the average one, not the one that makes it into the Times or something, is read by 10 people. And then I think eight of them are probably just checking to see if they're referenced in it. And so to me, I had no interest in that for this reason. It's an interesting backstory. When I did the shame research, because I'm a qualitative me, I had no interest in that for this reason. It's an interesting backstory.

When I did the shame research, because I'm a qualitative researcher, I would sit down like we're sitting down and collect data and talk to people about their stories. It was the first time I'd ever done research when people, when we were done with the interview, looked at me pleadingly and said, when you figure this out, you're going to tell me, right? And my answer in the beginning was, no, I'm going to publish it in something that you'll never have access to. Ouch.

Right. That was my, I didn't say that, but that's what I thought. And then I thought, you know what? I'm not going to do that anymore. You know, I don't want to, I don't want to spend my time. I mean, I still have to do it and I probably should do it more. But I don't want to spend my time doing something that's not, in my opinion, moving people forward. And if I can't pick it up and read it, and my friends can't pick it up and read it, and I have to look up words in a thesaurus to sound smart, I'm not doing it anymore.

It's not why I'm here. It's not in service of my work. And my faith is really an organizing principle in my life, and it pushes up against that value. So that's kind of how wholehearted. I was scared at first. I would imagine you would be. Yeah.

I mean, because you're really bringing two worlds together in a way where each world probably has substantial doubt about the validity of the other one. And also, like you said, especially because you operate and you're on your living in an academic setting. So that's got to bring on a lot of fear. It's like, am I going to be drummed out of my profession? Am I going to be still there, but I'll be the laughingstock of my profession for the

rest of my career? Versus is this work so powerful that it's the work that I can't not do and it must get out. Yeah. And I think it's interesting because grounded theory in itself is very controversial, I think, in a lot of academic places because you don't start with existing theories and prove and disprove them. You start from people's lived experiences. You often come up with conclusions that bump up hard against what's already established in the literature. And I love it because Glaser and Strauss, who developed the, I think they were like-spirited in terms of my approach. They said, use names that resonate with people. And so one of the ways we measure the accuracy of our theories is resonance, fit.

Do people see themselves in their lives and their stories and the narratives that you're creating with your data? And I love that because if it doesn't ring true, then... Which is kind of fascinating for me also because the entrepreneur in me and the writer in me looks at that model and that's actually, that's the model that actually builds the most successful businesses.

But it's the exact opposite model that most entrepreneurs start with. Most entrepreneurs get an idea for a product or a service or solution, and then they go looking for a market. Right. And then they're like, okay, who are the people that we can sell this to? And whereas, you know, rather than saying, okay, let me just reach out to a community that I feel like I want to be in service of and have really deep, intense conversations with them. And maybe I'm part of that community. Very likely I am. So let me start with my own experience and then with the experience of people in this community and find out what are they feeling? What are they not feeling? What's the conversation that's already going on in their head?

And can I build messaging and solutions around that in a way that can make me of further service to them. And in doing so, create a living, a career, a business that builds around that. And in my experience- I love that. Those are the people where not only individually do you really come alive, but those are the businesses that have profound impact in the world and that kind of catch fire because you're not trying to sell something to anybody. You're simply caring about them so deeply that you take the time to understand what they need and then just giving it to them. And so many times people don't do that. And so really, so from the business side, it's this interesting overlay with

what you're saying, the approach to how you research. I have never thought about that until this exact second. But I love that. And I think it's exactly grounded theory because what's interesting, I never thought of entrepreneurship, I think, of I've got a really cool thing. Right, exactly. Let me go find somebody who wants it. Yeah. But in grounded theory, the whole thing is it's called trust in emergence is the axiom.

Trust in what emerges from the data. Trust in people's lived experiences and their perception of those experiences. But what you do is, the goal of grounded theory is to find out what is the main concern of a group of people you want to know more about. And then your theory should explain how they're trying to continually resolve that concern. So it's very much in line. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like-

Entrepreneurship, I like it. No, it is. I mean, the really good entrepreneurs know that you come in and you're probably going to start out, we're human beings, so there's no way we can start the process without certain assumptions. Right. You know, like they're, they're just going to be there. Um,

but the most successful people will always be the ones that are open to serendipity or open to the market, proving them wrong. And then listening to what the market says is right. And then deciding whether they actually want to create that or not. It's the exact same. Yeah. So it's,

it's gotten, now I want to learn more about like, sort of like your whole methodology. No, I will, I'll give you something on it because it's exactly exact same. Yeah. So now I want to learn more about your whole methodology. No, I'll give you something on it because it's exactly the same. And in fact, you evaluate a theory that's a grounded theory. One of the codes we live by is, and it's so much in line with entrepreneurship now that you pointed this incredible thing out. A theory can never be as good, is only as good as its ability to work new data. So like a business would only be as good

as its ability to address the evolving and changing needs of the market, right? Which is where a lot of bigger companies get in huge trouble because they started, and maybe they were actually really certain, they understood the pain points, the needs of a market when they started and they served that beautifully but markets aren't stationary you know like things they're living breathing beasts that move and change and morph especially in the last four or five years we've seen that in a profound way

and i've talked to so many people who are who are past the what you probably consider classic entrepreneur like real big established businesses, and their businesses are shrinking fast, and they're just thinking, we're going under, you know? Rather than, well, no, actually, all the assumptions that we built around are no longer valid, so we don't have to just keep trying to, you know, like work on that same model.

We can actually look for where the pain points and the conversations have moved to and see if we can adapt what we do and how we do it to those new needs. A lot of people don't want to do that. They're so vested in the way things work and they are terrified. And this is, I'm so curious what you think about this also. Most people who start businesses um they start them and they accept that there's a certain amount of uncertainty and risk and fear and anxiety and all this stuff and failure um and very often it's because part of the dynamic is they don't have a whole lot to lose in the beginning right then they build something

substantial now they do have a lot to lose so when i was talking about like that business that now has to adapt to a whole different thing now that they're in a place where that they don't have there's a lot to lose if they you know sort of like guess wrong or they don't they become incredibly fearful in a way that they didn't or they're not able to move through the fear and the change in the uncertainty in a way that they were much more able to when they started a business, which really ties in, I think, with a lot of your exploration of vulnerability.

Yeah, you're going to be hard-pressed to get me shaking loose this parallel between business, and I'm so obsessed with it now. It's so fascinating because, you know, the axiom, again, of trust in the emergence is, I think what I've seen in my experience talking to businesses and talking to not just entrepreneurs but big corporations is they don't trust in the process that brought them success. Yeah. They start to trust in the product of the process. Right. Right?

Yep. And they lose their trust for the process, which is trust in emergence. Trust the people you're serving. And so the same is true with researchers. Like for me, the minute I say, I don't care what emerges from this interview with Jonathan, I've already got a theory out there in the academic literature. This has got to hold up. And the minute I shift, my work is dead. It no longer rings true.

It's not innovative. It's not exciting. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun.

On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die.. Tell me how to fly this thing. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? You know, Barney Glazer, one of the founders of Grounded Theory,

calls it the drugless trip. You have to have a real comfort with uncertainty and vulnerability to do the kind of research I do. I mentor a lot of doctoral students and sit on a lot of dissertations for grounded theory folks who get halfway through and think, this is too uncertain. I want to go back to the take an existing theory, prove or disprove it with data,

write it up, be done. I don't want to trust an emergence and let something new that we haven't talked about yet emerge. I don't have the stomach for it. And so for me, the vulnerability piece, and I get that because I was that person. And so- I think we're all that person. We're all that person. Yeah. And that's important because- Right. It's not like... I mean, maybe there are these freakish people you know like this really thin slice of humanity that just doesn't feel it or their brains are softwired from the beginning to

process it differently but most of us it hurts it does hurt and you know and to say i wasn't one of those people is exactly against like i have the four myths of vulnerability and daring greatly and the first one is that it's weakness. Yeah. You know, and I define vulnerability as uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. And so I think one of the reasons we lose tolerance for it or we can't sit with the process is because we've been raised to believe that being vulnerable and walking into a meeting with funders or whomever or whatever your situation is and saying, I don't know.

I mean, some of the most incredible examples that I read and include in the book are about business people who stand up in front of their leadership and say i don't know what to do next and you may know more than i do i need your help that's powerful yeah and that is the the single most terrifying thing that i think any leader could do but also that you know like maybe the most powerful thing they could do simultaneously. It's really interesting. But I think, like you were saying, though, people think it's all, if I do that, I'm weak. Right.

Pete Fuda, who is a researcher in Australia, in Sydney, and he studies transformative leadership. And he does long case studies over five and six years studying leadership and how it transforms within an organization. And he has this great article that was in Harvard Business Review where he uses metaphors to talk about what transformative leaders share in common. And one of them is the snowball. And he tells the story of a CEO, a new CEO who kind of came aboard and was very directive, very instructive, and

things really started unraveling. And he decided to kind of risk vulnerability and stood up in front of, brought all of his leaders together and said, I'm getting feedback that my style, the way I communicate and give you feedback is pushing innovation down. I need your help. I need to know how to be pushing innovation down. I need your help. I need to know how to be better at this. I need to know how to work with you. And what Pete found in his research, not only in this case,

but across the cultures he was studying, is that it created this huge snowball effect. If those leaders in turn felt permission to stand with their teams and say, I can't do this without you and those people. And then it created this thing that took off through the culture. And what it shook loose was it got so big and fast, the momentum of it, that it shook loose all the drag, that people that were not willing to say, I need help, I don't know, I'm in over my head, couldn't hold on anymore in the culture. Is that fascinating? we're not willing to say, I need help, I don't know, I'm in over my head,

couldn't hold on anymore in the culture. Is that fascinating? It's amazing. And it also really speaks to the top down, you know, like idea that it all comes from the people that are at the very tip top. You know, like if that one person, you know, like if you have a CEO and she or he doesn't actually say,

okay, I'm owning this myself. Nobody else in an organization will own it. And the reverse is true too. It seems not well-affected. That person steps up and says, yeah, I don't know which way is up right now, but we're all really smart. Let's see if we can figure this out together.

And it's so funny too, because I've had so many conversations. I'm sure you have also with sort of management teams, leadership people, and they're like, well, how do we get the people under us to buy this or to act in this way

or to create in this way? And like the first question is like, well, are you behaving in that way or acting in that way? Like, no, no, no, no. This isn't about me. It's like, no, actually it is. Right.

You know, everything that you say, and this is as a parent, you know this, right? I mean, that's it. It's like, hello, you right you know you can't everything that you're saying and this is as a parent you know this right that i mean that's like hello you know like you can't say do this if like then you're doing something completely different because your kids are looking and be like right so same thing in organizations it's the same dynamic but people don't see that no i think one of the things that i say that maybe pisses people off more than anything else i say whether it's leaders parents is that we cannot give people what we don't have. And we can't ask people to do what we're not doing. And that makes people crazy. And I get it as a parent, especially because when I tell parents, you can't raise a child with a greater sense of resilience than your own.

You can't raise a child with more self-compassion than what you have. They're like, they get twitchy, they get crunchy and yeah. But when I tell people, I'm not sure that you can love a child more than you love yourself. People get hostile. Yeah, I bet. Because people want to say, you know, that's crazy. I love my kids way more than I love myself. And it's often the parents

of very young children who say that. What's interesting to me is it's the parents of teens who say, oh God, I get that. Because what happens is fourth, fifth grade, certainly middle school, beginning of high school,

when our kids start to become us in some ways, or we see our partners and things that bug the crap out of us about our partners emerge in our kids are the things that bug us about us, that self-compassion, that compassion turns to judgment. Like, what do you mean you didn't have anyone to sit with at lunch? And rather than saying, oh, God, I remember that. Let's talk about that. You say, well, pull your hair back and wear some of those cute outfits I bought you, and then maybe your friends will want to sit with you.

And that's your stuff. Yeah, and I think we've all, it's like, you know, as you're saying this, I'm, like, scanning right now. I'm like, okay, I consider myself a pretty, you know, like, compassionate, you know, like, open guy, but I'm like, i like considered myself a pretty you know like compassionate you know like open guy but i'm like i'm sure there's been so many things where i've just reacted without even realizing that i'm reacting because of a cap on my own capability to deal with my own stuff and it's manifesting in my response to other people like you know which is um it's not easy to own that.

No, and I've done it. I mean, you know, it's, people say, well, we can't all be, you know, shame-free all the time like you. And I think to myself, I've never been a parent and not been a shame researcher. I mean, I started just around the time my daughter was born right before. And I've done it because we're human. And I think that's why I think, you know, I talk a lot about the gifts of imperfect parenting. I think it's those moments where, I mean, I remember telling Ellen one time, she was doing this whole thing about, she wore a side ponytail. She came home with a different ponytail. I said, hey,

what happened to your side ponytail? She said, oh, I took it out because my friend thought it looked terrible. And I said, but I thought you loved it. And she said, yeah, but they gave me a hard time. And so I went into the whole, like, you have to do what you love, not what other people think. And then five minutes later, I'm telling Steve, you've got to pull the Christmas lights out of the yard. What are my neighbors going to think? And Ellen's five feet away from me. And she said, I don't understand.

I said, you don't understand what? She goes, the ponytail, the lights. She's keeping you honest. Yeah, I'm like, oh, my God. You're right. It's just rhetoric. If I tell my daughter, your body's beautiful, you know,

our value would probably be to say something like, this is the body that God gave you and it's strong and wonderful and, you know, and then she walks in and I'm using a lot of hateful self-talk about my jeans not fitting.

Which one do you think matters the most? But it's the same with leaders. You know, if leaders say to teams, hey, we want innovation, so we'll expect failure. Fail often, fail quick, clean it up and move on. But they see a leader scared to death of failing, scared scared of trying scared of being uncertain or vulnerable then the message is that other stuff is lip service This is about perfection and even if it stifles creativity We can't be wrong, right? So one so one of the big things is that people perceive vulnerability as a weakness and and seems like the answer is

You got to own the change. And you basically have to say, okay. But I mean, how do you do that? I mean, if you're somebody where you're, you know, let's say you're a leader, you're a parent, you're just a career, you're an artist, you know, and you want to do something and you're terrified of being vulnerable. You're a human being living in the world who's terrified of opening up and revealing who you are. You're like going into the uncertainty, the risk. How do you make that jump? Well, I think the first place is, I mean, and it may be different whether you're a cognitive person or a feel your way through person. But I think for those of us who think

first and feel second, which would be me, I think getting clear on what vulnerability is and isn't is really important for this reason. 12 years of research, I cannot find a single example of courage, of moral courage, spiritual courage, leadership courage. I cannot find a single example in our data of courage that was not based on sheer vulnerability. And so I think one of the things we have to do, first of all, is dispel these myths and get clear in our values. I mean, for me, it doesn't hurt less when I get criticized. When I put myself out there or when you put yourself out there, people who are trying to, you know, during great leaves from the Roosevelt quote, you know. One of my favorite quotes, by the way.

Is it really? Yeah, as soon as I saw the title, I was like, I know where that's from. You did? Totally. I love that. Yeah. It's not the critic who counts. It's not the man who points at the strong man as he stumbles or how the, you know,

points out how the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit goes to those of us who are in the arena. I mean, to totally paraphrase, their asses kick sometimes, falling on our faces, failing. Sometimes victorious, but at least when we're failing, we're doing greatly. I think when I talk to people who've made the transition from, I really want to put these homemade journals on Etsy, but I'm really afraid to do that. I really want to ask my boss for this promotion or this raise. I really want to share this idea at the PTO meeting next week. When I asked people, where did you muster up the courage? How did you script the courage to do this? The answer was always, I got very clear

that being courageous was more important to me as a value than succeeding. And so to me, it comes down to an area of your work that I think is so important, really serious intention setting and very clear values alignment. And I think it is very necessary to have people in our lives who, when we dare greatly, when we're vulnerable, when we try something new, and it doesn't work out,

and we come up short, who are willing to look at us and say but you were brave yeah i think those people having those people around you are so and that's i'm sure you've experienced the same thing um i've had so many conversations with people where they said i don't have those people yeah what do i do because every time i do this like everybody around me lines up and says told told you so, you're an idiot. You know, like I knew you were going to fail. And which is which is kind of interesting, because to me, one of the potential great equalizers there is technology. The potential to use technology to flatten the world and find people like that.

And it's not the same thing as the people who live in your neighborhood. You can hug and kiss and like just have a cup of coffee with. And it's not the same thing as the people who live in your neighborhood you can hug and care and like just have a cup of coffee with and it's not the same I would love to say it is because you know like I live in breathing that world about yes not but I think it helps it to have access to a small group of people who may be dotted and you know five different countries but they're deeply committed to each other and share the same value set to me I've seen that help people who live in a small town somewhere and are in a family where that approach to life is completely rejected.

But I think it's a very, it's a tough problem. Mayday, mayday, we've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is?

You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. action in the face of perceived weakness and vulnerability I think so many of us all we focus on is what if I fail right rather than what if I succeed right and what if I do nothing which is very often the most terrifying answer of the three no there's no doubt and I mean something you said about people who are surrounded by communities who are critical I told so, you were so stupid to do

that. One thing that I think it's really important and I feel ethically bound to say to people a lot of times about the work is be clear that when you start to dare greatly, when you start to be vulnerable and take chances, you are going to be holding a very uncomfortable mirror up for people. And a lot of times if you're surrounded by people who say, I told you so, or who are critical, it's because daring greatly to watch someone be vulnerable and risk, to watch someone walk headlong into uncertainty is so uncomfortable for people who are not willing to do that, that they're dying to see failure and to point it out as confirmation that my way of living is okay. And the whole dotted around, like, I think there was a group of women, we call ourselves the love bombers.

There's a group of women. They are artists, photographers, writers. I got a call one day from them probably five, six years ago. They said, you don't know us. We know you from online. I think you read our blogs. We read yours. We're going to gather together on the Oregon coast. Would you like to join us? And I was like, oh, hell no. Like that's not, you know,

like I was voted like least likely to show up with a group of hippie girls that smoking clothes, like and doing art. Like I was like, no. And my husband was like, I think you might need this it's like are you kidding me he said I think you should go and it really changed my life because again it was technology and I totally agree with what you said um when I'm throwing up and sick these are not the people who hold my hair back they're not the people who bring the casseroles over during hard times. But they are a group of people who, where we made agreement that we would be vulnerable

and brave together and that we would create a space for each other where we never had to shrink when we were really proud of what we were doing, our successes, and we never have to puff up when we were feeling small and ashamed. That we were all going to be brave together and take our licks. And, you know, and so I think that's really important It was life-changing for me and so I think if you are in a small town, I think world domination summit Yeah, great example I mean

I think a lot of people go to that just because They could fly from all over the world because they can't find those people and it's like they're one time every year Where they can like be on the ground with like-minded people. And then they take that with them. I think a lot of things can start out digitally and then it'll, it stays in sort of this ethereal kind of supportive level, but then you can meet somebody and spend three days with them. And then when you leave, it's a very different dynamic. It's a totally different. Yeah. I mean, and I think, yeah, like I would have never, I don't think I've ever done, I know before or since anything like my talk at World Dominations Summit, like I would never have tried something so crazy and out there had I not been,

you know, around people who are there to explore how brave am I willing to be? Right. You know, and so I do think there's something about that. I think one of the other myths about vulnerability that you pointed, that you touched on was the idea that we can go it alone. You know, that's still even in a world where people are pretty awake and conscious about connection, it's still a very highly regarded ideal. This is where I quote Whitesnake in the book. Here I go again on my own.

Anyway, I love your taste in music. As like an old Rush fanatic. Yeah, I'm a Rush fanatic too. That's one thing that's so fun about the book. People are like, mostly guys are like, dude, you quoted Rush. The ultimate philosopher. Neil Peart.

I know. World peace. I think he could bring world peace. I think so. But no, I think this idea that we can go it alone and that I think we need people not only to support us but i think we need people like to try on vulnerability with to try it on and say hey johnson's prene and i think i want to do this i did that with chris going back to wds world domination summit like the night of rehearsals i was there you were there you know

i said i'm seriously thinking about closing by doing a duet with you from the Glee version of a journey song. And he was like, I know. And his wife was like, yeah, there's no way he's ever going to do that. And I'm like, then I thought, okay, good. I was like, okay. So I just kind of moved away from it. And then I hear him like from the backstage go, but you are writing a book called Daring Greatly. So I was like, are you going to do it or not? And he's like, I'll do it if you do it. But that's what I mean by trying it on. Because there was no doubt. I was seriously afraid.

I put it at best 50-50 that anyone else would sing along. And I thought, are you going to be OK if it's just you and me the whole time? And Chris goes, it's going to be a long song if that happens and I'm like well I'll tell the guys the 80 guys to fade out but it was a thousand people uh-huh staying on their chairs you know in the aisles playing air guitar it was fun and so and it turned into an extraordinary moment it was one of the best moments of my life I I mean, it was, and I think, I mean, that's part of the message, right? Is that, that's what you miss out on when you're not willing to go to that place. It is. And I read it, everyone, you know, cause I still get comments

from people that were like, don't stop believing or suck it. You know, like I still get those, but, um, every now and then there'll be a comment like that's the cheesiest thing I've ever heard of and it doesn't I feel total neutrality about that not even the need to defend it or anything because my thought was you weren't there because it was from people who weren't there. You didn't share that with us. And that's okay. Right. Because if you were there, it was fun. You know, and we sang together like we were 13 in the back of a car, sneaking out on a Friday night. You know? So, but I think you have to have a tribe to try on that stuff with.

Yeah, I totally agree. It's almost impossible for a lot of people. Not everybody. I think some people are kind of wired. I think so too, yeah. But I don't think that's most people. I don't. And I think the other thing that's important

about that tribe that has really shifted for me in the last year is I no longer really even, I have no intake at all of any feedback or criticism from anyone who's not in the arena. So unless you are in your own capacity, in your own world, in your own life,

getting your ass kicked on occasion, I'm not interested in what you have to share with me about my work. What flipped that switch? A profound respect for myself and other people who are out there trying to do work and trying to walk into uncertainty and vulnerability and are really risking. Because it is so easy to make a life and a career out of sitting in the bleachers and making fun of people and putting them down. And so I think a profound respect for

those of us who are out there. And what I realized too, in my own life is the people who are doing that, who are in their own arena, I don't care what it is. You don't have to be a writer or speaking in public. I don't care if you're a teacher, you know, like my sisters are teachers, you know, in my opinion, they walk in the arena every morning at seven 30. Right. And so what I have found not only as a, my personal life, but professionally is the people who are in the arena and who are showing up and letting themselves be seen give feedback that is far more constructive and far more helpful and mindful about what people can hear and not hear. And I love, I mean, I'm an academic at heart, so I love debate and discourse. I love it when people email me and say, saw your talk, parts of it I liked, but you were completely remiss in not mentioning these three areas of the literature. How can you talk about vulnerability without quoting so-and-so about closeness or something?

I love that. That makes me better. It makes my work better. People who make fun of me, I make fun of other people or say hateful things. People who say, I feel sorry for your kids. You know, people who say, if I looked like you, I'd embrace imperfection too. Those kind of comments that you get, you know, I just, I hate to get binary because it's not, it's who I'm trying not to be, but I'm still that person in some ways. And I really do believe you're either

making the world a better place or you're making it a worse place. I don't feel like there's a lot of neutrality and that's probably a little hard ass line to take. I don't want to sound like you're either with us or against us, not my favorite quote or perspective, but I do feel like every day our choices have a huge impact on people. And someone told me, this could be urban legend, I don't know, maybe you know, but I heard that Oprah Winfrey has this quote on her door. But it's a quote that I love, and it says,

you're responsible for the energy you bring into this room. And I think people are responsible for the energy they put in the world. And a fake avatar and a fake name and leaving a comment somewhere is not benign. Because I'll keep putting my work out there and you will probably keep putting your work out there and several people we know will probably keep but there are people who have amazing gifts who could make the world an incredibly better place who won't put their work out there for that reason. You know, and that's a loss. And whether we know what that work was or not,

we miss it and grieve it every day. There are songs that we need to hear. There are stories that need to be heard. There's work that needs to be seen. There's ideas that need to be implemented that we'll never see or know because there's so many people out there who are so reflexively cynical and critical and mean-spirited. I like it. Do you like it? You know, it's something that I deal with every single day in my life.

First thing I do when I wake up in the morning is I roll out of bed and I sit and I meditate for 25 minutes and part of that is because it helps me enter every day with that sense of equanimity and the ability to when needed zoom the lens out more and look down on myself and and get a better sense for when I'm reacting or responding with deliberation and intelligence, it's still a brutally hard thing for me to do because I'm an emotional person.

And because I operate so much of the time as a writer and behind the veil of anonymity that a lot of people had that you were describing in the online world, I get attacked. And I just say to them, I'm always saying to myself, would this person stand in front of me in a room with my kid next to me and say the same thing? Right. And I've got to believe that the answer would be no.

I want to believe the answer would be no because I want to have that level of faith in humanity. But sometimes I, but it's not easy. And I know, to your point, I know, I've had so many conversations with people who do not bring their art and their soul and their heart to the world because they know that there are people out there

who will attack them in very, very mean, vindictive, spiteful ways. And part of, I guess, my exploration has been to the point that you were making before. I've always been fascinated with the phenomenon of people who are even within your close inner circle, your family, your closest friends, either publicly or secretly rallying to see you fail yeah um and i think a lot of what so i try and reframe i try and understand you know um i once heard uh you know maybe it was something that i read or an interview that i saw with the dalai lama um where they asked him what his greatest fear was and his greatest fear was losing compassion for the Chinese. It blew my mind.

And I'm just thinking to myself, if I can try and practice compassion, meditating compassion on a daily level in a way that tries to allow me to step in the shoes of that person who is being this way towards me or towards someone I love, maybe that's the beginning for me but it doesn't make me okay with it I would love to say it does I would love to say I just I'm good I meditate I do my mindfulness and I experience it and then I let it go but but I don't I'm human you know and it hurts but far better that now they're living in the

great twilight that knows neither victory nor success I think that's the thing I think I've seen the pain and talk to people about the pain of having the anonymous critic but also having the family who's rallying for failure, to have the partner who's just chomping on the bit to say, I told you so, to have the children who are looking at you with disappointment. You know, the greatest pain I've ever seen in my work is from people who have spent their lives on the outside of the arena, wondering what would have happened had I shown up. That's a pain that to me, maybe it's because I'm 46, has become a far greater fear of mine

than having to dodge some hurt feelings sometimes. And yeah, the what if I would have shown up and been seen. Yeah, and I'm in the same place and same age, by the way. I love it. Yeah, me too. I wouldn't go back for love or money. One final question as we wrap this up. So the name of this project is called The Good Life Project. And so when you hear that phrase, or if I ask you the question,

to you, what does it mean to live a good life? What comes up? Gratitude. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think for me a good life is

one a good life happens when you stop and are grateful for the ordinary moments that so many of us just steamroll over to try to find those extraordinary moments. So to me, my good life is soccer practice and carpool line and tuck-ins and date night,

and that's a good life for me. I mean, and, and knowing that it's good and acknowledging and stopping that it's good and saying, this is good. I love that. Yeah. So if you're still listening, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I just completely love that you enjoyed this episode so much that you've listened until now. You're an awesome human being. And while we're wrapping things up, might as well share a quick shout out to our super cool brand partners. If you love the show, and I'm guessing you do because you're still here, please support them. They help make the podcast possible. Check out the links in today's show notes. And don't forget also your spot at this year's Camp GLP. As we recently announced, this will be our final year.

We're expecting about 400 amazing humans from all around the world. It's going to be more epic than ever. And if you've been waiting, be sure to register soon. You can find that link at goodlifeproject.com slash camp today. Or just click the link in the show notes. See you next week. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised.

The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him.

Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk.