Good Life Project - Brené Brown | Why Courage Matters More Than Comfort

Episode Date: December 29, 2025

Showing up as your true self is terrifying, but it’s also the unlock key for so much of what makes your life good. Through powerful stories and research-backed insights, this conversation reveals why showing up as your real self unlocks extraordinary possibilities, and how embracing imperfection creates deeper connections than striving for perfection ever could. Whether you're leading a team, raising children, or pursuing creative work, you'll discover practical tools for choosing courage over comfort and building genuine connections in a world that often fears being real.You can find Brené at: Website | Instagram | Brené's Podcasts | Episode TranscriptIf you LOVED this episode, you’ll also love the conversations we had with Elizabeth Gilbert about bringing your whole self to your life.Check out our offerings & partners: Join My New Writing Project: Awake at the WheelVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

One of the things that I say that maybe pisses people off more than anything else I say, whether it's leaders, parents, is that we cannot give people what we don't have and we can't ask people to do what we're not doing. And that makes people crazy. And I get it as a parent, especially because, you know, when I tell parents you can't raise a child with a greater sense of resilience than your own. You can't raise a child with more self-compassion than what you have. They get twitchy, they get crunchy and yeah but when I tell people I'm not sure that you can love a child more than you love yourself people get hostile so what if daring to be open and real unlock not just your greatest potential but also pretty much everything good in every relationship or experience

you could ever have what if the thing that so many of us fear most that others will discover how flawed and human and real we are is actually the gateway to the life we so desperately want to live? And what if choosing courage over comfort opened the doors to a world and a life you never imagined? These are just some of the questions that I dive into with Bray Brown. So Bray has spent the last two decades studying the transformational power of vulnerability. Author of six number one New York Times bestsellers, Brne's really inspiring research on courage, worthiness, and shame has enlightened millions worldwide. And a research professor at University of Houston, she's a leading voice on topics like empathy, resilience, and living a

wholehearted life. Her groundbreaking TED Talk on the power of vulnerability has now been viewed over 60 million times. And I really love Brunet's ability to translate complicated academic concepts into just accessible language and stories. And speaking of stories, she is a deeply compelling storyteller who will draw you in, then open your heart in no small part by sharing hers with you first. In fact, the conversation that unfolded between us moved both of us to tears at various point. Bray was so beautifully real, raw, candid, and wise. As a best of episode, every part of this conversation is as relevant today, maybe more so, given the current climate than it was the day we talked. As Bray notes, there is incredible power in the willingness to be seen in

owning our stories we can own our lives, a willingness to face uncertainty, vulnerability, and emotional exposure together is what allows communities to truly connect. So listen to it as Brunay and I explore the courage and compassion that emerge when we dare to be open, real, and seen. The conversation that unfolded really did leave me changed. And perhaps it will inspire you to pursue an idea you've kept to yourself for too long. So excited to share this best of conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.

Awesome to have you here with Usper. I'm excited to be here. Thank you. One of my fascinations with you is you present, so like when I first saw your TED Talks, I was blown away, as were millions and billions of people. You present as this radiant, wise, snarky, funny presence. And I'm always curious when I see that somebody, somebody who's so strong and so powerful and so full of life, is this something that you sort of like stepped into later in life? or were you the kid who sort of manifested this also? No, I was not, A, definitely, I was not the kid. I think I stepped into it much later in life,

and I think what I stepped into was understanding that the weird, introverted, pattern-seeing person that I was, what I stepped into is a sense of, I like that person. and I and I want to be that person and but I think I dreaded being that person growing up I think I thought how something's off base because it's not like you know I grew up watching you I went to Greece 25 times when it came out you know like I wanted to be that person I wanted to be Olivia Newton John with a cigarette in the cat suit you know winning over John Travolta Like, I didn't want to be the, I didn't think, you know, I'm awesome.

I'm 13. I'm going to be a qualitative researcher instead of things. Scare the shit out of people. Right on. Yeah, I thought, like, I want to date with a quarterback. Yeah, because that's how I was raised. And so the things that about me that I love now, I were painful probably then. Like, I've always seen things in patterns.

And I didn't know that there was, like, a job. Like, that's what qualitative researchers do. So I just thought maybe I was a part of the underworld or something. I thought it was like, I thought it was weird and I didn't fit in really. So I have a sense of belonging. I mean, which is probably a more common experience than most people own up to. Yeah, I think that makes me in the majority for sure. Yeah.

Yeah. At what point do you start to realize in your life that, that in fact, that does make you in the majority? When I started doing this work, I mean, I think that's, that's, that's, the gift of doing this work is that I know, no matter how bleak the feeling, how desperate the feeling, how weird the experience or smell or idea that none of us are alone. Some, I did a radio show on Wisconsin Public Radio a couple days ago, and a caller called in and shared a Tikna Han quote with me that just brought me to my knees. It said, our purpose, and I'm kind of probably going to butcher it a little bit,

but our sole purpose here is to get over the illusion of our separateness. You know, and I think that's what my work is. Like, we're all in this together. And I had no idea that the things that made me feel so much on the outside were the things that would ultimately, when I stepped into some self-worth, be the things that connected me the strongest to other people. Do that make sense? Yeah, I mean, I think it does.

I'm curious also whether it was an evolutionary experience for you to realize this or whether there were moments, you know, were there sort of like decisive moments or experiences with people of things that made you say, okay. I'm starting to get that there's a different way to live in the world and I want to be a part of figuring that out. No, there was a decisive moments. There were, yeah, I'm not like a slow unraveling kind of person as much as I would like to be. No, there was a moment. I mean, I can picture. I know what I was wearing. like it was in November of 2006. I was at my wooden red painted breakfast room table.

I was sitting at the table. I was coding a bunch of new data asking this new question for the first time. I'm going back into the shame data and saying, well, okay, I understand what shame is and I understand how that operates in our lives. But what about these men and women who are living wholeheartedly, like, who are really all in? What did they have in common? And I had giant, you know, those post-it notes that are poster size.

I had them all over my kitchen and my living room. I was writing down words and basically what emerged from that process were two lists. Like, here are the behaviors that the wholehearted folks are engaging in

and here's what they are trying to let go of. Here's what they're trying to move away from in their lives. And the move away from list was, it was as if someone described me on a list. Like I was every,

I called it the shit list. I was everything on that list. judgmental perfectionistic all work not only no play no rest but kind of disregard for play and rest and people who thought it was important so you're coming at it from this like science mind let me just figure this out and then you're looking at this you're like oh my this is personal oh i was devastated i couldn't believe that i just remember folding my hands up on the top of the table and putting my head down and just thinking because you know i think up until that moment

and then the work that followed I trusted my professional self immensely but didn't trust my personal self as much so I knew that I know I'm a good researcher and so I knew if these words were emerging like these qualities were important these choices

doing something creative you know like that's a great example like creativity emerged is so important comparison emerged as the shame counterpoint to that and I was in this comparative person you could I mean every I was always comparing myself to other people. And I was scoffing at creativity. Like people would say, hey, do you

want to go to a painting class with me or do you want a scrapbook? And up until that moment, I would say, no. I thought it was flaky and self-indulgent and not to really do that kind of crap and busy working. So yeah, there was a moment that sort of shifted. So I actually want to, I want to kind of go a little bit deeper there. But before that, for you use the word, wholeheartedness a lot. Talk to me about that. What is it? What do you mean when you use that phrase? I was trying to figure out a word. I'm a grounded theory researcher, which means we develop theory from people's lived experiences, and then our primary job is to language it in a way that resonates with people. And so I was trying to figure out what's a word for people

that I would describe as all-end, who are just really living and loving entirely. And wholehearted is language in actually in the book of common prayer that in the Episcopal church that we use. And there's this line that says, I have not loved you with my whole heart. And that was always very powerful for me when I said it. And so the word that came to mind was wholehearted. So which is kind of fascinating right there too because you're taking a term which comes from a place, which is very not scientific. It's very faith-based.

Super faith-based. And then you're bringing it into, like, your world, which is, like, totally linear, like, prove it or, you know, it doesn't matter, you know, what happens. You're like, how do you measure that? No, it's true, and I've received a lot of flack from it, too. From the academic community? Yeah.

Huh. Yeah. Just for the use of the term. Yeah. You shouldn't name constructs, things that are immeasurable. And so that was hard for me. me because, you know, one of the things I talk about in the TED Talk is that I had a little sign in my office when I was a doctoral student teaching that said, if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist.

Right. And I love thinking that we could live in that world. Now I have a sign above my study that says, if you can measure it, it's probably not that important. I love it. Well, it's like the shadow side. It is the shadow side. And so I think I didn't care at that point.

felt like I was on to something that was super important for me personally, and it resonated with me, and, you know, what else would you call it? Social adaptability? It's not, that's not what I was looking for. I was looking for wholeheartedness. Yeah. And it's something that the common person? Yeah. I mean, I'm sure there's enough ambiguity so that people can kind of like say, like, this is how I feel wholeheartened supplies in my world and my life, but there's enough universality to the term that I think people just kind of get what it's about. Yeah, and I think that's, I think that's my job as a researcher. Like, one of the things, I've never really talked about this before,

but I think you're interested. You'd be as the uncertainty person, you'd be a great person to talk to about this, that there is one of the greatest losses, I think, that it is happening in our world today, is that academics are shamed for accessibility. I mean, it makes me teary-eyed, because it makes me think how much great information

we're losing, even whether you buy into it or if it's real or not real, at least we're losing the debate in the discourse, because to be accessible is some kind of really like albatross. It's like if you're accessible and people understand your work, that means you're not very smart. And so to me... So basically you're writing only for people that are in rarefied air. And if you're, if the average person on the street can understand

there's something wrong with what you're doing? Right. And really there's like interesting journal articles that say, you know, the average academic journal article, the average one, not the one that makes it into the Times or something, is read by 10 people. And then I think eight of them were probably just checking to see if they're referenced in it, you know. And so to me, I had no interest for that. For this reason, it's an interesting backstory. When I did the shame research, because I'm a qualitative researcher, I would sit down like we're sitting down and collect data and talk to people about their stories. It was the first time I'd ever done research when people, when we were done with the interview, looked at me pleadingly and said, when you figure this out, you're going to tell me, right? And my answer in the beginning was no. I'm going to publish it in something that you'll never have access to. Ouch. Right. That was my, I didn't say that, but that's what I thought. And then I thought, you know what, I'm not going to do that anymore. You know, I don't want to, I don't want to spend my time. I mean, I still have to do it, and I probably should do it more. But I don't

want to spend my time doing something that's not, in my opinion, moving people forward. And if I can't pick it up and read it, and my friends can't pick it up and read it, and I have to look up words in a the thesaurus to sound smart, I'm not doing it anymore.

It's not why I'm here. It's not in service of my work. And my faith is really an organizing principle in my life, and it pushes up against that value. So that's kind of how wholehearted I was scared at first.

I would imagine it would be. Yeah. I mean, because you're really bringing two worlds together in a way where each world probably has substantial doubt about sort of like the validity of the other one. And also, like you said, especially because you operate and you're on your living, like, in an academic setting. So, you know, that's got to bring on a lot of fear. It's like, you know, am I going to be drawn that in my profession, that am I going to, like,

just, am I going to be still there, but I'll be the laughing stopping of my profession for the rest of my career? you know, versus is this work so powerful that it needs, it's the work that it can't not do and it must get out. Yeah, and I think it's interesting because grounded theory in itself is very controversial, I think, in a lot of academic places, because because you don't start with existing theories and prove and disprove them, you start from people's lived experiences, you often come up with conclusions that bump up hard against what's already established literature. So, and I love it because Glazer and Strauss, who developed the, I think,

think they were like spirited in terms of my approach. They said use names that resonate with people. And so one of the ways we measure the accuracy of our theories is resonance, fit. Do people see themselves in their lives and their stories and the narratives that you're creating with your data? And I love that. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. The entrepreneur me and the writer me looks at that model. And that's actually, that's the model that actually builds the most successful businesses. But it's the exact opposite model

that most entrepreneurs start with. Most entrepreneurs get an idea for product or service a solution and then they go looking for a market. And they're like, okay, who are the people that we can sell this to? And whereas, you know, rather than saying, okay,

let me just reach out to a community that I feel like I want to be in service of and have really deep, intense conversations with them and maybe I'm part of that community. So let me start with my own experience and then with the experience of people in this community find out. What are they feeling? What do they not feel you? What's the conversation that's

already going on in their head? And can I build messaging and solutions around that in a way that can make me of further service to them? And in doing so, create a living, a career, a business that builds around that. And in my experience, I love that. Those are the people where not only individually do you really come alive but those are the businesses that have profound impact in the world and that kind of catch fire because you're you're not trying to sell something to anybody you're simply caring about them so deeply that you take the time to understand what they need and then just giving it to them and so many times people don't do that and so really so from the business side it's this it's this interesting overlay with what you're saying the approach to how you

research. I have never thought about that until this exact second. But I love that. And I think it's exactly grounded theory because what's interesting, I never thought it. Entrepreneurship, I think, of I've got a really cool thing. Right. Exactly. Let me go find somebody wants it. Yeah. But in grounded theory, there's the whole thing is it's called trust in emergence is the axiom. Trust in what emerges from the data. Trust in people's loved experiences and their perception of those experiences. But what what you do is you, the goal of grounded theory is to find out what is the main concern of a group of people you want to know a map, know more about. And then your theory should explain

how they're trying to continually resolve that concern. So it's very much in line. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's kind of like. Theory entrepreneurship, I like it. No, it is. I mean, you know, like the really good entrepreneurs know that, you know, you come in. And you're probably going to start out, you know, there's, we're human beings, so there's no way we can start the process without certain assumptions. Right. You know, like they're just going to be there. But the most successful people will always be the ones that are open to serendipity

are open to the market proving them wrong. And then listening to what the market says is right and then deciding whether they actually want to create that or not. It's exact same. Yeah. So it's got, now I want to learn more about, like sort of like your whole methodology. No, I'll give you something on it because it's exactly the same. And in fact, you evaluate a theory that's aground the theory,

one of the codes we live by is, and it's so much in line with entrepreneurship now that you pointed this incredible thing out, a theory can never be as good, is only as good as its ability to work new data. So like a business would only be as good as its ability to address the evolving and changing needs of the market, right?

Which is where a lot of bigger companies get in huge trouble because they started, and maybe they were actually really certain. They understood the pain points, the needs of a market when they started, and they served that beautifully. But markets aren't stationary, you know, like things. They're living, breathing beasts that move and change and morph,

especially in the last four or five years. We've seen that in a profound way. And I've talked to so many people who are past the, you probably consider a class of entrepreneurs, like, real big established businesses. And their businesses are shrinking fast, and they're just thinking, we're going under, you know, rather than, well, no, actually, all the assumptions that we built around are no longer valid. So we actually, we don't have to just keep trying to, you know, like work on that same model.

We can actually look for where the pain points and the conversations have moved to and see if we can adapt to what we do and how we do it to those new needs. A lot of people don't want to do that. They're so vested in the way things were. And they are terrified. And this is, I'm so curious what you think about this also. Most people who start businesses, they start them and they accept a certain amount of uncertainty and risk and fear and anxiety and all this stuff and failure. And very often it's because part of the dynamic is they don't have a whole lot to lose in the beginning.

Then they build something substantial. Now they do have a lot to lose. So when I was talking about that business that now has to adapt to a whole different thing, now that they're in a place where they're in a place where they're in a place where they're, they don't have, there's a lot to lose if they, you know, sort of like guess wrong or they don't, um, to become incredibly fearful in a way that they didn't, or they, they're not able to move through the fear and the change and the uncertainty in the way that, um, they were much more able to when they started a business, which really ties in, I think, with a lot of your exploration of vulnerability. Yeah, I, you're going to be hard pressed to get me shaking

loose this parallel between business and I'm so obsessed with it now. It's so fascinating because, you So the axiom, again, of trust in the emergence is, I think what I've seen in my experience talking to businesses and talking to not just entrepreneurs, but big corporations, is they don't, they don't trust in the process that brought them success. Yeah. They start to trust in the product of the process. Right. Right.

And they lose their trust for the process, which is trust in emergence, trust the people you're serving. And so the same is true with researchers. me, the minute I say, I don't care what emerges from this interview with Jonathan, I've already got our theory out there in the academic literature. This has got to hold up. And the minute I shift, my work is dead. It no longer rings true. It's not innovative. It's not exciting. And so, but, you know, Barney Glazer, one of the founders of Grounded Theory, calls it the drugless trip. You have to have a real, oh, you have to have a real comfort with uncertainty and vulnerability to do the kind of research I do. He lose a lot, like I mentor a lot

of doctoral students and sit on a lot of dissertations for grounded theory folks who get halfway through and think, this is too uncertain. I want to go back to the take an existing theory, prove or just prove it with data, write it up, be done. I don't want to do, I don't want to trust in emergence and let something new that we haven't talked about yet emerge. I don't have the the stomach for it. You know, and so, so for me, the vulnerability piece, and I get that because I was that person. And so...

I think we're all that person. We're all that person. Yeah, and that's important because... Right. It's not like, you know, I mean, maybe there are these freakish people, you know, this really thin slice of humanity that just doesn't feel it or their brains are softwires from the beginning to process it differently. But most of us, it hurts.

It does hurt. And, you know, and to say I wasn't one of those people, is exactly against, like, I have the four myths of vulnerability in Daring Greatly, and the first one is that it's weakness. Yeah. You know, and I define vulnerability as uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. And so I think one of the reasons we lose tolerance for it or we don't, we can't sit with the process is because we've been raised to believe that being vulnerable and walking into a meeting with, you know, funders or whomever or whatever you're, your situation is in saying, I don't know. I mean, some of the most incredible examples that I read and include in the book are about

business people who stand up in front of their leadership and say, I don't know what to do next. And you may know more than I do, I need your help. That's powerful. Yeah. And that is the single most terrifying thing that I think any leader could do. but also that, you know, like maybe the most powerful thing they could do simultaneously. But like you were saying, though, people think it's all, if I do that, I'm weak. Right.

Pete Fuda, who is a leadership, he's a researcher in Australia and Sydney, and he studies transformative leadership. And he does long case studies over five and six years studying leadership and how it transforms within organization. And he has this great article that was in Harvard Business Review, where he uses metaphors to talk about what transformative leaders share in common. And one of them is the snowball. And he tells the story of a CEO, a new CEO,

who kind of came aboard and was very directive, very instructive, and things really started unraveling. And he decided to kind of risk vulnerability and stood up in front of, brought all his leaders together and said, I'm getting feedback that my style, the way I communicate and give you feedback, is pushing innovation down. I need your help.

I need to know how to be better at this. I need to know how to work with you. And what Pete found in his research, not only in this case, but across the cultures he was studying, is that it created this huge snowball effect. If those leaders in turn felt permission to stand with their teams

and say, I can't do this without you, and those people, and then it created this thing that took off through the culture and what it shook loose was it got so big and fast, the momentum of it, that it shook loose all the drag, that people that were not willing to say, I need help, I don't know, I'm in over my head, couldn't hold on anymore in the picture. Is that fascinating? That's amazing. And it also really speaks to the top down, you know, like idea that it all comes from the people that are

at the very tip top. You know, like if that one person, you know, like if, you know, have a CEO and she or he doesn't actually say, okay, I'm owning this myself. Nobody else in an organization will own it. And the reverse is true, too. You know, like, it seems no well effective. That person steps up and says, yeah, I don't know which way is up right now, but we're all really smart. Let's see if we can figure this out together.

I mean, and it's so funny, too, because I've had so many conversations, I'm sure you have also sort of management teams, leadership people, and they're like, well, how do we get the people under us to, this or to act in this way or to create in this way. And like the first question is, like, well, are you behaving in that way or acting in that way? Like, no, no, no, this isn't about me. Right. It's like, no, actually it is. Right. You know, everything that you're saying, and this is as a parent, you know this, right? That, I mean, that's, like, hello. You know, like, you can't say, do this if, like, then you're doing something completely different because

your kids are looking and be like, mm-mm, right. So same thing in organizations. It's the same dynamic, but people don't see that. No, I think one of the things that I say that maybe pisses people off more than anything else I say, whether it's leaders, parents, is that we cannot give people what we don't have. And we can't ask people to do what we're not doing. And that makes people crazy. And I get it as a parent, especially because, you know, when I tell parents, you can't raise a child with a greater sense of resilience than your own. You can't raise a child with more self-compassion than what you have. they're like they get twitchy they get crunchy and yeah but when i tell people i'm not sure that

you can love a child more than you love yourself people get hostile nah and that because people want to say you know that's crazy i love my kids way more than i love myself and it's often the parents of very young children who say that what's interesting to me is it's the parents of teens who say oh god i get that because what happens is fourth fifth grade certain middle school, beginning of high school, would our kids start to become us in some ways? We see our partners, the things that bug the crap out of us about our partners emerge in our kids are the things that bug us about us. That self-compassion, that compassion turns to judgment.

Like, what do you mean you didn't have anyone to sit with at lunch? And rather than saying, oh, God, I remember that. Let's talk about that. You say, well, pull your hair back. some of those cute outfits I bought you and then maybe your friends will want to sit with you and that's your stuff yeah and I think we've all

it's like you know like as you're saying this I'm like scanning right now I'm like okay I consider myself pretty you know like compassionate you know like open God and I'm like I'm sure there have been so many things where I've just reacted without even realized and that I'm reacting because of a cap on my own

capability to deal with my own stuff and it's manifesting in my response to other people like you know which is um it's not easy to own that no and i've done it i mean you know it's people say well we can't all be you know shame free all the time like you and i'm i think to myself i've never been a parent and not been a shame researcher i mean i started just around the time my daughter was born right before and i've done it because we're human and i think that's why i think you know i talk a lot about the gifts of imperfect parenting, I think it's those moments where, I mean, I remember telling

Ellen one time, she was doing this whole thing about, she wore a side ponytail. She came home with a different ponytail. I said, hey, what happened to your side ponytail? She said, oh, I took it out because my friends thought it looked terrible. And I said, but I thought you loved it. And she said, yeah, but, you know, they gave me a hard time. And so I went into the whole, like, you have to do what you love, not what other people think. And then five minutes later, I'm telling Steve, you've got to pull the Christmas lights out of the yard. What are my neighbors going to think? And Ellen's five feet away from me, you know, and she said, I don't understand.

I said, you understand what? She was, the ponytail, the lights. Huh. You know, I'm like. She's keeping you honest. Yeah. I'm like, oh, my God. You're right.

It's just rhetoric. You know, if I tell my daughter, your body's beautiful, you know, our value would probably be to say something like this is the body that got gave you and it's strong and wonderful and you know and then she walks in and i'm using a lot of hateful self-talk about my jeans not fitting which one do you think matters the most but it's the same with leaders you know if leaders say to teams you know hey we want innovation so we'll expect failure fail often fail quick clean it up and move on but they see a leader scared to death of failing, scared of trying, scared of being uncertain or vulnerable, then the message is that other stuff is lip service. This is about perfection. And even

if it stifles creativity, we can't be wrong. Right. So one of the big things is that people perceive vulnerability as weakness. And seems like the answer is you got to own the change. And you basically have to say, okay, but I mean, how do you do that? I mean, if you're somebody where you're, you know, let's say you're a leader, you're a parent, you're just a career, you're an artist, you know, and you want to do something, and you're terrified of being vulnerable. You're a human being living in the world who's terrified of opening up and revealing who you are, you know, like going into the uncertainty, the risk. Yeah. How do you make that jump? Well, I think

I think the first place is, I mean, it may be different whether you're a cognitive person or a feel your way through person, but I think for those of us who think first and feel second, which would be me, I think getting clear on what vulnerability is and isn't is really important for this reason. 12 years of research, I cannot find a single example of courage, of moral courage, spiritual courage, leadership courage. I cannot find a single example in our data of courage that was not based on sheer vulnerability. And so I think one of the things we have to do, first of all, is dispel these myths. I mean, and get clear in our values.

I mean, for me, I don't, it doesn't hurt less when I get criticized. When I put myself out there or when you put yourself out there, people who are trying to, you know, Deering Greatly's from the Roosevelt quote. Right. You know. One of my favorite quotes, by the way. As soon as I said, I said, I tell the title, it's like, I know where that's wrong. You did?

I love that, yeah. It's not the critic who counts. It's not the man who points at the strong man as he stumbles or points out how the doer deeds could have done them better. The credit goes to those of us who are in the arena. Who, I mean, to totally paraphrase, getting hurt, their asses kick sometimes, falling on our faces, failing. Sometimes victorious, but at least when we're failing, we're doing greatly. I think when I talk to people who've made the transition from. I really want to put these homemade journals on Etsy,

but I'm really afraid to do that. I really want to ask my boss for this promotion or this raise. I really want to share this idea at the PTO meeting next week. When I asked people, where did you muster up the courage? How did you script the courage to do this? The answer was always I got very clear that being courageous was more important to me as a value than succeeding. And so to me, it comes down to an area of your work that I think is so important,

really serious intention setting and very clear values alignment. And I think it is very necessary to have people in our lives who, when we dare greatly, when we're vulnerable, when we try something new, and it doesn't work out and we come up short who are willing to look at us and say but you were brave Yeah I think those people

having those people around you and I'm sure you've experienced the same thing I've had so many conversations with people where they said I don't have those people Yeah what do I do? Because every time I do this Like everybody around me lines up and says Told you so you're an idiot You know like I knew you were going to fail

Which is kind of interesting because to me one of the potential great equalizers there is the potential to use technology to flatten the world and find people like that. And it's not the same thing as the people who live in your neighborhood you can hug and kid and just have a cup of coffee with and it's not the same. I would love to say it is because I live and breathe in that world

about it, but I think it helps to have access to a small group of people who may be dotted in five different countries, but they're deeply committed to each other and share the same value. To me, I've seen that help people who live in a small town somewhere and or in a family where that approach to life is completely rejected. But I think it's a very, it's a tough problem. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

One of the things that I look at is, I think a lot of times, part of it is what we tell ourselves, a lot of is the questions we ask ourselves also around our ability to sort of unlock action in the face of perceived weakness and vulnerability. I think so many of us all we focus on is what if I fail rather than what if I succeed? Right. And what if I do nothing? Which is very often the most terrifying answer of three. No, there's no doubt. And I mean, something you said about people who are surrounded by communities who are critical, I told you so, you were so stupid to do that. One thing that I think it's really important and I feel ethically bound to say to people a lot of times about the work is be clear that when you start to dare greatly, when you start to be vulnerable and take chances, you are going to be holding a very uncomfortable mirror out from people.

And a lot of times if you're surrounded by people who say, I told you so, or who are critical, it's because daring greatly, to watch someone be vulnerable in risk, to watch someone walk headlong into uncertainty is so uncomfortable for people who are not willing to do that that they're dying to see failure and to point it out as confirmation that my way of living is okay.

And the whole dotted around, I think there was a group of women, we call ourselves the love bombers. There's a group of women. They are artists, photographers, writers. I got a call one day from them probably five, six years ago they said you don't know us

we know you from online I think you read our blogs we read yours we're going to gather together on the Oregon coast would you like to join us and I was like oh hell no like that's not you know like

I was voted like least likely to show up with a group of hippie girls that's smoking clothes like and doing art like I was like no and my husband's like I think you might need this I'm like are you kidding me And he said, I think you should go.

And it really changed my life because, again, it was technology. And I totally agree with what you said. When I'm throwing up and sick, these are not the people who hold my hair back. They're not the people who bring the cast rolls over during hard times. But they are a group of people where we made an agreement that we would be vulnerable and brave together. And that we would create a space for each other where we never had to shrink when we were really proud of what we were doing in our successes. And we never have to puff up when we were feeling. small and ashamed, that we were all going to be brave together and take our looks. And, you know,

and so I think that's really important. It was life-changing for me. And so I think if you are in a small time, I think World Domination Summit. Yeah. Great example. I mean, I think a lot of people go to that just because they fly from all over the world because they can't find those people. And it's like the one time every year where they can like be on the ground with like-minded people. And then they take that with them. I think a lot of things can start out digitally. Yeah. And then it stays in sort of this ethereal kind of supportive level. Yeah. But then you can meet somebody and spend three days with them. And then when you leave, it's a very different dynamic. It's totally different. Yeah. I mean, and I think, yeah, like I would have never, I don't think

I've ever done, I know before or since anything like my talk at Pearl Domination and all that. Like I would never have tried something so crazy and out there had I not been. I know before or since anything. I know before. then, you know, around people who are there to explore how brave am I willing to be. Right. You know, and so I do think there's something about that. I think one of the other myths about vulnerability that you pointed, that you touched on, was the idea that we can go it alone. You know, that's still even in a world where people are pretty awake and conscious about connection,

it's still a very highly regarded ideal. You know, this is where I quote White Snake in the book. You know, like, here I go again on my own. Like, we all want to... Either right, I love your case to music. As like an old rush and, you know, like, fanatic. Yeah, I'm a rush fanatic too. And so, yeah, that's one thing that's so fun about the book.

People are like, mostly guys were like, dude, you quoted Rush. I love it's like... The ultimate philosopher is there. Neil Pert. I know. World Peace. I think he could bring world peace. I think so. But, no, I think this idea that we can go it alone and that I think we need people not only to support us,

but I think we need people like to try on vulnerability with, to try it on and say, hey, Jonathan's Brunei, and I think I want to do this. I did that with Chris going back to WDS, World Bination Center, like the night of rehearsals. I was there. You know, I said, and seriously thinking about closing by doing a duet with you. from the glee version of a journey saw and he was like uh no and his wife was like yeah there's no way he said we're going to do that and then i thought okay good i was like okay so i just kind of moved away from that and then i hear him like from the backstage go but you are writing a book called daring greatly so i was like are you going to do it or not and he's like i'll do it if you do it

but that's what i mean by trying it on because there was no doubt i was seriously afraid i thought it would i put it at best 50-50 that anyone else would sing along And I thought, are you going to be okay if it's just you and me the whole time? And Chris goes, it's going to be a long song if that happens. And I'm like, well, I'll tell the guys the AV guys to fade out. But it was a thousand people. Uh-huh. Staying on their chairs, you know, in the aisles, playing your guitar.

It was fun. And it turned into an extraordinary moment. It was one of the best moments of my life. I mean, it was. And I think, I mean, that's part of the message, right? Is that, that's what you miss out on when you're not going to go to that place? It is. And I read it, everyone, you know, because I still get, you know, comments from people that were like,

don't stop believing or suck it, you know, like, I still get those. But every now that there'll be a comment like, that's the cheesiest thing I've ever heard of. And it doesn't, I feel total neutrality about that, not even. the need of defend it or anything because my thought was you weren't there because it was from people who weren't there you didn't share that with us and that's okay right um because if you were there it was fun you know and we sang together like we were 13 in the back of a car sneaking out on the Friday night so um so but I think you have to have a tribe to try on that stuff with yeah I totally agree it's it makes it's it's it's it's it's it's almost important

possible for a lot of it. Not everybody. I think some people are kind of wired. I think so, yeah. But I don't think that's most people. I don't. And I, you know, I think the other thing that's important about that tribe that has really shifted in for me in the last year is I no longer really even, I have no intake at all of any feedback or criticism from anyone who's not in the arena. So unless you are in your own capacity and your own world and your own life, getting your ass kicked on occasion. I'm not interested in what you have to share with me about my work. What flipped that switch? A profound respect from myself and other people who are out there trying to do work and trying to walk into

uncertainty and vulnerability and are really risking. Because it is so easy to make a life and a career, out of sitting in the bleachers and making fun of people and putting them down. And so I think a profound respect for those of us who are out there. And what I realized, too, in my own life, is the people who are doing that who are in their own arena, I don't care what it is. You don't have to be a writer or speaking in public. I don't care if you're a teacher, you know, like my sisters are teachers. You know, in my opinion, they walk in the arena.

every morning at 7.30. Right. Right. And so what I have found, not only as my personal life, but professionally, is the people who are in the arena and who are showing up and letting themselves be seeing give feedback that is far more constructive and far more helpful and mindful about what people can hear and not hear. And I mean, I love, I mean, I'm an academic at heart. So I love debate and discourse. I love it when people email me and say, saw your talk, parts of it I liked, but you were completely remiss in not mentioning these three areas of the literature. How can you talk about vulnerability without quoting so-and-so about closeness or something? I love that. That makes me better. It makes my work better. People who make fun of me or make fun of other people

or say hateful things, people who say, I feel sorry for your kids. You know, people who say, if I looked like you I'd embrace imperfection too that those kind of comments that you get you know I just I hate to get binary

because it's not it's who I'm trying not to be but I'm still that person in some ways and I really do believe you're either making the world a better place or you're making it a worse place

I don't feel like there's a lot of neutrality and that's probably a little hard-ass line to take. I don't want to sound like, you're either with us or against us, not my favorite quote or, you know, perspective. But I do feel like every day our choices have a huge impact on people.

And someone told me, this could be urban legend, I don't know, maybe you know. But I heard that Oprah Winfrey has this quote on her door, but it's a quote that I love. and it says, you're responsible for the energy you bring into this room. And I think people are responsible for the energy they put in the world. And a fake avatar and a fake name and leaving a comment somewhere is not benign. Because I'll keep putting my work out there.

And you will probably keep putting your work out there. And several people we know will probably keep. But there are people who have amazing gifts who could, make the world an incredibly better place, who won't put their work out there for that reason. Yeah. You know, and that's a loss. And whether we know what that work was or not, we miss it and grieve it every day. There are songs that we need to hear.

There's stories that need to be heard. There's work that needs to be seen. There's ideas that need to be implemented. that we'll never see or know because there's so many people out there who are so reflexively cynical and critical and mean-spirited. I like it.

Do you like it? You know, it's something that I deal with every single day in my life. First thing I do when I wake up in the morning is I roll out of bed and I sit and I meditate for 25 minutes. And part of that is because it helps me enter every day with that sense of equanimity.

and the ability to, when needed, zoom the lens out more and look down to myself and get a better sense for when I'm reacting or responding with deliberation and intelligence. It's still a really hard thing for me to do because I'm an emotional person. And because I operate so much of the time as a writer and behind the veil of anonymity

that a lot of people had that you were describing the online world I get attacked and I just say I'm always saying myself would this person stand in front of me in a room with my kid next to me

and say this same thing and I've got to believe that the answer would be no I want to believe the answer would be no because I want to have that level of faith in humanity but sometimes I but it's not easy and I know

to your point I know I've had so many many conversations with people who do not bring the art in their soul and their heart to the world because they know that there are people out there who will attack them in very, very mean, vindictive, spiteful ways. And part of, I guess, my exploration has been to the point that you were making before. I've always been fascinated with the phenomenon of people. who are even within your close inner circle, your family, your closest friends,

either publicly or secretly rallying to see you fail. Yeah. And I think a lot of what, so I try and reframe, I try and understand, you know, I once heard, you know, maybe it was something that I read

or an interview that I saw with the Dalai Lama where they asked him what his greatest fear was. And his greatest fear was losing compassion to the Chinese. It blew my mind. You know, and I'm just singing to myself,

If I can try and practice compassion, meditating compassion on a daily level in a way that tries to allow me to step in the shoes of that person who is being this way towards me or for someone I love, maybe that's the beginning for me. But it doesn't make me okay with it.

I would love to say it does. I would love to say I just, I'm good. I meditate, I do my mindfulness, and I experience it, and then I let it go. But I don't. I'm human, you know, and it hurts. But, um, far better that than living in the great twilight that knows neither victory nor success. But I think that's the thing.

I think I've seen the pain and talk to people about the pain of having the anonymous critic, but also having the family who's rallying for failure to have the partner who's just chomping on the bit to say, I told you so, to have the children who are looking at you with disappointment. You know, but I don't think I've ever seen, the greatest pain I've ever seen in my work has, it's from people who have spent their lives on the outside of the arena, wondering what would have, what would have happened had I shown up? That's a pain that, to me, maybe it's because I'm 46. has become a far greater fear of mine

than having to dodge some hurt, you know, some hurt feelings sometimes. And, yeah, the what if I would have shown up and been seeing? Yeah, and I'm in the same place, and same age, by the way. I love it. Yeah, me too. I wouldn't you go back for a lot of money. One final question as you wrap this up.

So the name of this project is called The Good Life Project, And so when you hear that phrase, or if I ask you the question, to you, what does it mean to live a good life? What comes up? Gratitude. Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, a good life is. One, a good life happens when you stop and are grateful for the ordinary moments that so many of us just steamroll over to try to find those extraordinary moments.

And so to me, my good life is soccer practice and carpool line and Tekkins and date night. And that's a good life for me. I mean, and knowing that it's good and acknowledging and stopping that it's good and saying, this is good. I love that. Yeah. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode,

say, but you'll also love the conversation we have with Elizabeth Gilbert about bringing your whole self to your life. You'll find a link to Liz's episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers, Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young,

Christopher Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still listening here. Do me a personal favor. A seventh second favor.

Share it with just one person. I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too, but just one person even. Then invite them to talk with you. about what you've both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.