Good Life Project - Bridging the Divide: Lessons in Empathy | Spotlight Convo

Episode Date: March 30, 2023

One of our core values and beliefs here at Good Life Project is that every human being, regardless of how they identify, love, practice, or live is endowed with dignity and worth, and is entitled to be treated through this lens. We also believe that every person can learn from any person, especially those who they perceive as being different from them. It’s a big part of the reason we’re always seeking to share a rich tapestry of voices on the podcast. The moment we close ourselves off to those we perceive as other, whether from fear, lack of knowledge or lived experience, we close ourselves off to a part of ourselves and of life that could have made our days so much richer. And, we shrink our worlds and lives along the way.So, as we head into this year’s Trans Day of Visibility, we wanted to share a selection of moments, ideas and awakening from a few deeply-moving conversations we’ve had over the years with some incredible, big-hearted, and wise humans who also happen to identify as transgender, and have chosen to make it their life’s work to step into conversation with others to share their experience. Not just of being transgender, but also of moving through a world that often misunderstands, labels, and ostracizes on a level that leads to injustice, rising at times to violence and suffering. These conversations aren’t just about transgender life, though, they’re about life, the way we choose to relate to each other, hear and see each other, acknowledge our shared humanity, and choose to either expand our horizons and our lives, or contract both. So excited to share this Best Of episode featuring Imara Jones and Trystan Reese. You can find Imara Jones at: Website | Instagram | TransLash Podcast | Listen to Our Full-Length Convo with ImaraYou can find Trystan Reese at: Website | Instagram | Listen to Our Full-Length Convo with TrystanCheck out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKED. To submit your “moment & question” for consideration to be on the show go to sparketype.com/submit. Visit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Living an intentional life is hard because it means reflecting on what you want, honoring your truth, and then bringing that truth in the world even when the world around you may not support it or you don't completely understand. And you don't only have to do that one time. You have to do that your whole life. You have to do that all the time. And that's a very demanding existence. So one of our core beliefs here at Good Life Project is that every human being, regardless of how they identify, love, practice, or live, is endowed with dignity

and worth and is entitled to be treated through this lens. We also believe that every person can learn from any person, especially those they perceive as being different from them in some way. It's a big part of the reason that we're always seeking to share a rich tapestry of people and voices on the podcast. The moment we close ourselves off to those we perceive as other, whether from fear or lack of knowledge or lived experience, we close ourselves off to a part of ourselves and of life that could have made our days so much richer, and we shrink our worlds and lives along the way. So as we head into this year's Trans Day of Visibility, we wanted to share a selection of moments, ideas, and awakenings from a few deeply moving conversations we've had over the years

with some incredible, big-hearted, and wise humans who also just happen to identify as transgender and have chosen to make it their life's work to really step into conversation with others to share their experience, not just of being transgender, but also of moving through a world that often misunderstands, labels, and ostracizes on the level that leads to injustice, rising at times to violence and suffering. These conversations aren't just about transgender life, though. They're about life. The way we choose to relate to each other, to hear and see each other, to acknowledge our shared humanity, and really choose to either expand our horizons and lives or contract both.

So excited to share this compilation episode featuring Amara Jones and Tristan Reese. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. So imagine walking through life knowing who you are, but not feeling like you can live as that person. That was how my guest today, Amara Jones, experienced the first half of her life before making a series of choices that would allow her to feel safe and supported stepping back into her own life on her own terms. Amara is the Emmy and Peabody award-winning founder of Translash Media,

a cross-platform journalism, personal storytelling, and narrative project, which produces content to really shift the current culture of hostility towards transgender people in the U.S. As part of her work at Translash, she hosts the Webby-nominated Translash podcast with Amara Jones, as well as the investigative limited series, The Anti-Trans Hate Machine. In 2019, she shared the first ever UN high-level meeting on gender diversity and was featured on the cover of Time Magazine in 2020 as part of its New American Revolution special edition. She has held economic policy posts in the White House and

communications positions at Viacom. And Amara's work as a host, on-air news analyst, contributor, and writer, it's been featured everywhere from The Guardian, The Nation, MSNBC, CNBC, NPR, the Mike Cutler Lines, and so many other places. And focuses on a full range of social justice and equity issues. In our conversation, we explore not just her personal journey, but also the importance of representation in media and popular culture as a way to foster openness and acceptance. Here's Amara. So you grew up in the South, Atlanta in the 80s, in a very different culture. And you were also a kid who seemed like, the way I've heard you describe it is you felt like you were different. You tell a story when you were about 12 years old, leaving a house in a pink shirt and your stepdad's reaction to it. Could you share a bit of that? Because it seems like that was a moment that is a bit of an anchor for you. very Black city, right? And so I think it has that in common with Salvador, where there is this

pervasiveness of Blackness that did feel very familiar to me, although a great many other things, as you say, were very different. So I just wanted to name that, that I think that's an important thing. Yeah, no, when I was between 10 and 12. Yeah, no, I attempted to, I mean, I think I did leave the house with the pink shirt on. And yeah, my stepdad basically was like, you can't do this. Like, this is not something that people who are men, who society sees as men and boys, you know, kind of does. And it was both, it was a warning and it was a threat, right? In the way that it was done.

Less the words and more the tone and the context. Yeah, and I think that that was, you know, it was meant to signal that you can't be who you are. I mean, I already knew that. I knew that I was a girl many years before this incident. But I think that one of the things that I got from it was that any expression of femininity was a danger. And it personified, it was the personification, it was the manifestation of what I had known from a very young age, which is one of the reasons why I, like so many other

trans people, suppressed ourselves. So I think that that was, it is emblematic of this larger phenomenon that had been at work for me since a very young age. Yeah, I know you write the, and I'm reading your words, the excessive standards that Black people are held to by the wider society means that nonconformity, any expression considered not the right way, is dismissed and erased. For me, this meant that I could not speak my truth and use my voice to tell the world who I was when I knew it. Like so many trans people, I grew up invisible. And it sounds like that's a lot of the feeling of erasure,

the feeling of invisibility. I can't imagine carrying that around as an adult, equipped with different skills, different coping mechanisms, different relationships and resources. But as a young kid, to walk through life with that feeling had to be just incredibly heavy. Yeah. I mean, I think that a lot of people learn to be invisible. I think a lot of people learn to conform at a very young age and do so out of a sense of fear. And that a lot of adults carry that around. I think it's more extreme if you're trans, but I think a lot of people end up doing that and not feeling that they can be free in themselves and their choices. Yeah, I think that that's not an, sadly, it's not an uncommon phenomenon. I think that a lot of people do that in a series of different ways.

And I think the burden for African Americans and the history of African people in this country and their descendants makes that even more so because of that history and the need to conform. But yeah, I think the idea that you can't express who you are and that you are invisible is indeed a heavy burden. I think transness is an extreme version of that. But I think a lot of people have that in their lives in a variety of ways, driven by fear. I'm curious, as a kid, how does that show up in your psyche? Rather than just focusing on any external manifestation, how do you feel? As you're walking around as a kid, how does that manifest? You're pretending all the time. That's the easiest way to describe it. What's strange is how

I very distinctly remember feeling all the time that the world is interacting with you, not as who you are, but as they constantly perceive you. And so consequently, you know, you end up learning to perform all the time. You know, you're pantomiming what the world expects from you, and they're interacting with like a projection of who you are, but not who you really are. And that's what you're doing all the time. And that's strange. And so then there's a even sort of greater inner part of yourself that, you know, that doesn't feel seen, that isn't seen. And that's maddening. And, you know, it's why there can be severe mental health issues for trans people. It's why that there can

be these incredible rates of suicide. It's why there can be all these things going on because you actually never feel seen as a person and your humanity isn't able to break through and people aren't able to interact with you in the way that you know that you are. And so, as I say, I think you're walking around and you're performing all the time. Yeah. So it's like even if the performative self is being accepted or finding some sense of belonging, it's actually, it's the facade. It's the projection that's actually being. But it's not real. You know, like embrace. Right.

But it's not you. And you're always this other person behind it. That's right. I got to imagine it's incredibly isolating. Even you could be surrounded by people and family and friends, but the real you, you know, could feel just incredibly alone in that same place because it's, it's not you that you're leading with.

That's, that's exactly right. And I think that it's why that, you know, people can struggle even into adulthood with the idea that people will really accept them for who they are, even after transition and all the rest of it. So I think that it's a very isolating way to grow up. It's quite strange. When you were a kid, what were the things that kept you from stepping into who you knew you were, you know, on a level of, it sounds like part of it was fear. And I'm curious if that's true fear of what?

Violence. I don't think that it was, that wasn't an imagination that was very real. It was very, the threat of violence, either from within my own family and household, or from my community was very real. I mean, I remember even growing up being perceived as like effeminate or gay, that was enough to invite, you know, threats of violence, actual incidents of violence, not to mention if people knew that you were a girl. And I mean, we have to underscore the fact that it wasn't until recently, and I mean like four or five years recently, that there began to be sort of mainstream figures of trans people that portray trans people as human beings. It's a very recent thing. You know, it's fascinating if I, when I talk to trans people who

are even like late, like 18, 19, 20, they talk about remembering growing up as a kid, right, just 10 years ago, and not feeling like they had any representation of themselves and how isolating that was and how terrible that was. So that's true even for people who are in their teens right now, right? So I think that that's an important thing for us to keep in mind, is this relative association with trans people with things other than violence, other than mental illness, other than marginalization, is incredibly new. And so you take those three factors, right? There's the threat of violence

within your family and household. There's a threat of violence within your community. And then there is the violence and erasure in the larger world. And so I believe that my fears were grounded in kind of a rational assessment of the reality. Yeah. I mean, it's literally, it's, you know, in no small part about staying alive. It's about, like, I need to be safe, you know, like, yes, there's concerns about potential. What are the social concerns here? What are the family concerns? Like, what are the, but literally, like, fearing for your own ability to just, you know, like wake up the next morning with a pulse. What a horrendous thing to have in your head at any age in life, but especially as a young kid walking around and having that

sensation that you're, you can't show up as who you know yourself to be because of fear of, um, direct violence. Um, one of the things that occurred to me is, um, the word trans came up a number of times. Um, and the folks who listened to this podcast is really interesting because it's really a multi-generational audience and a global community. And we will have folks who are in their late teens who probably have a very interesting, their understanding of both what the language and what being trans is. And we may have folks listening in their 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s

who have either a complete unfamiliarity with the word trans or what being trans is, or maybe some sort of distorted or very old or set of assumptions. And I thought it might be helpful for us to actually just kind of unpack what do we, when we use the word trans and when we're talking about being trans, if we could dive into that a little bit and actually describe how we're using that language. So we're sort of all on the same page. Yeah, of course. I think language is incredibly important. And, you know, there are lots of ways in which the emergence of new language is being weaponized. But, you know, English is always in motion, and we should always be really clear about what we mean. So I'm excited to have this particular conversation. So the word

trans is short for transgender. The word trans in Greek is about moving from one thing to another. And so trans people are people who move from being the gender that we were assigned at birth to the gender that we actually are. Being trans and being transgender is a recognized condition, in quotes. It is why there are medical interventions that work for trans people, that when they are applied to us, that help us be the gender that we actually are, that our life chances improve, our life expectancy extends, and we become whole people. And those interventions can include nothing, but they can also include things such as hormones and surgery that help people be the gender that we actually are. And so one of the things that I was talking about last time is that I always knew that I was a girl, but I couldn't express that. And for people who struggle to relate to what that's like, or if that's real, given our society and the fact that

the very first thing that you learn beyond race, probably beyond geography, i.e. where you lived or where you grew up, is the division between girls and boys, end quotes. And for someone to know that their truth is totally different from that very fundamental orientation that we have, that truth has to be real because the learning around this is so strong. And I think as far as we know, and as far as there is human history that's been recorded, and I mean even on cave walls, we know trans people have existed in human society. We're actually not new. What's new is the idea of the binary, which arose around the need to classify people in very specific ways in the 18th and the 19th centuries, in particular in Western culture. We know that trans people exist in indigenous cultures in the 18th and the 19th centuries, in particular in Western culture. We know that

trans people exist in indigenous cultures in the United States, in Africa, in the Pacific, on and on and on. So we're not actually new. What's new is that we were deemed to not be useful, to not be normal with the standardization of human classification within a Western sense for the past several hundred years. And so what's actually happening is just a reassertion of human history. What we are able to do is to assert that there are people whom we know throughout human history are born in the wrong bodies. My brain is that of a woman and a girl and always has been. My body, the way my body unfolded, was not congruent with that.

And all we're doing is making those things line up and match. And that's not a new thing. The medical intervention is new, but the sentiment and the reality of our existence is not new. And I think that that's a really important thing for us to underscore. And just one other thing about language for people who are like, what's cisgendered? If you are a person not familiar with that term of any age, cisgendered means a person who does not move. You stay in the same place. You are not in motion.

So therefore, the gender that you were assigned at birth, when someone put girl or boy on your birth certificate, you're unfolding your life, your mind, your body. We're all in agreement with that. And so cisgender people don't have that same experience as transgender people and never have for as long as humans have been human. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X.

Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. Was there something that happened? Was there something cultural, political that happens in the 1800s that leads to this shift to this sort of like rush to binary labeling that largely didn't exist before that. I mean, ironically, it's a part of the Enlightenment of deciding who's human and who's not. I mean, that's the dark side of the Enlightenment that we don't talk about. The

Enlightenment, of course, being the end of medieval superstition and the growth of the belief in human rationality, to put it in very truncated terms. And a part of that is deciding who's human and who's not. And so a part of that system is about classification. It's about reproduction. It's very concerned about reproduction. It's concerned about class, and it's concerned about race. And so therefore, it's the development of these very specific hierarchies that were then also tied to systems of oppression like slavery, like capitalism. It's around the same time that we have the division between women and ladies, right, in quotes, that ladies in society, women who behave a certain way or are attached to a

certain class structure received protections than people who were just designated as women or female, right? It's around this same obsession time, this classification. So all of those things were working together to reinforce systems of economy, of dominance, of colonialism. And it's why some of the very, the earliest systems of classification of who's human, who's not, are very much grounded in race and racial ideology as well. So it all is tied together in a project that's not so great. I'm deliberately being facetious there. And I think that, you know, one of the things that's important is that there are lots of people that explore this. One person who does this on Instagram very easily and very accessibly is a person called Alok, who has a lot of material about the development of gender, the development of gender tied to specific clothing. All these things that are tied into this project of classification and reclassification and deeming people as being inside or outside of structures. It also has to do, quite frankly, with the proliferation of Christianity, whereby indigenous cultures and religions had representations of people who were trans or had representations of people who were intersex, totally different, and had cultural space for

those things. And Christianity doesn't, and Western culture doesn't. And it's very interesting to me to think about the ways in which Western culture is actually a primitive culture in a way. We like to think of it as being very sophisticated. But when it comes to encompassing humanity and our complexity and allowing for cultural space for all different types of people to exist with true equality, it's actually quite primitive and has a long way to go. Western traditions, Western culture, very often Western-based faith traditions will take on the positioning of expansiveness, but the dogma of reductionist, reductiveness, it's sort of like, let's distill things down to the most discreet possible things. And then there's an in and out, a good and a bad, an acceptable and an unacceptable. And I think sometimes we think

about it, well, that's just the way that it's always been. But in fact, as you're sharing, when you look back through history, this is actually a relatively recent phenomenon, and a harmful one in many ways. Yeah, I mean, I think that that's what's really interesting. We like to think of these things as permanent, and then somehow that we're new, but we're not actually new. The exclusion of us from humanity is what's actually new and tracks with a very specific time in history. And I don't think people know that enough. And it's because, you know, the classification of strict man and strict woman is very, as I say, it's one of the earliest divisions we learned before anything else. It's one of the organizing principles of the world.

And when something seems so fundamental, when it's something that you grasped maybe even before you spoke but definitely not long thereafter as a way to divide humanity, that's something that's very, very hard for people to not believe is true because they believed it as true for such a long time. And they didn't grow up in a culture which said, no, there are actually multiple genders, and there are actually multiple types of bodies, and there are multiple ways that people can be. And because we don't have cultural space for people in that way that is endemic to our culture, we actually end up with very, very narrow pathways for humanity that are not good for us, that are not healthy. Because, you know, nature is expansive. Nature creates. Nature is always trying something new. Nature is always about not sticking to things in a very specific way. And we try to say somehow that we're not a part of nature and that

we don't do that when we are. And trans people are a part of that tradition and we'll be much better off when we're able to embrace everyone. Yeah. And I think that distinction that you made also about like, this is not a choice where we decide that we, quote, are something different or want to be something different once we reach a certain part of life. This is an acknowledgement that this is actually who we've been from the moment that we hit this planet, but we were not in a position of agency and power where we actually got to choose the label that was placed upon us back then. So this isn't a reassignment. This isn't, I'm choosing to be something different or I am something different. This is,

this is who I've always been. And it is almost a reclamation of the language of the identity. I'm just saying, okay, so this is, this is me. And I've heard conversations where people are saying, well, you know, this is, it's a change you're making later, or it's a preference, that word preference. I've heard, and I would imagine that you have had a conversation around that as well, any number of times. Yeah, I mean, I think what's interesting is the only preference that I've exercised is to be true to myself. That's the only thing that I've done. I haven't done anything else than that. I haven't chosen to not be who I am.

That's so strange. Who would go through everything that I've had to go through and that trans people have to go through as a preference, you know? And I think people use that as a way to not try to take us seriously, because they have to actually take themselves seriously and their own choices. And honestly, most people don't make intentional choices in life. They make the choices that they think is very intimidating. So in order to not have to do that work, it's just easy to say, oh yeah, that's just a preference. Because if you dismiss it that way, you don't have to actually consider that we're real and then look at us and then think about your own life. The other thing that I've heard in conversation, and I've actually heard this among parents of kids who are probably like the early teens ish some variation of the phrase oh they're too young

to know and i it's interesting because when i've heard that i almost want to reflect back to the parent were you too young to know you're like why does that not apply to you? But it applies to this other person who's making a choice that you don't understand. It's an interesting gut check. Yeah. I mean, first of all, if it wasn't real, it wouldn't have stuck with me all my life. Right? Things that are false don't persist. So that's one of the ways that I would answer that. I think the second way that I would say is knowing early is actually a pure form of knowledge because it's actually not infected by all of the other things. Yeah. And thirdly, you know, there are people who know they're trans, try to live their life as cis people, do live their life as cis people.

And then realize that it doesn't work for them. And then in their 70s or 80s be like, I'm going to transition because I don't want to continue to live my life as a lie even at this late stage. So is it that they don't know? They've been around for seven or eight decades on the planet. They don't know themselves well enough. What they learned about themselves early on and tried to deny through marriage and through children and through grandchildren, they don't know. I just think that when people say things like that, they just haven't thought a lot about it, you know? And I try to have empathy for that because, you know, the title of this, of course, is

The Good Life Project. And a part of living a good life is having to be intentional. And living an intentional life is hard because it means reflecting on what you want, honoring your truth, and then bringing that truth in the world even when the world around you may not support it or you don't completely understand. And you don't only have to do that one time.

You have to do that your whole life. You have to do that all the time. And that's a very demanding existence. And so it's easier for people to live an unconscious life and to tune it out and to go through the motions and to not make a fuss because it's just easier in the short term, right? The day,

the days are easier, but the years end up being long. Yeah. And seeing people coming across people who have to live intentional lives with intentionality, that can be very, very frightening and very intimidating. And so it's just easier to find ways to dismiss, to deny, to erase, to silence, to even oppress than it is to face yourself and what you've done and why you've done it. And to maybe be faced with the choice that everything that you've done to a certain point,

you haven't really wanted to do. And then what do you do? Those are all big questions. And I think that's a part of the dismissiveness and the dismissal of us. You mentioned part of it is dealing with fear. Part of it is dealing with a lack of knowing. Part of it is dealing with your own ignorance and assumptions to a certain extent. And earlier in our conversation, we talked about the threat of violence.

And I guess what I'm trying to do is bridge the gap here. The fear leads to violence. What is the fear? The violence that trans people are so often and routinely exposed to. What I'm always trying to think about is where is that actually coming from? What is the genesis of that? Is it societal overlays?

Is it assumptions? Is it misinterpretations? Is is the genesis of that? Is it societal overlays? Is it assumptions? Is it misinterpretations? Is it the media? And I know this is where so much of your work, you know, like in your career and your field has emerged into. But how do these misperceptions become fear that then becomes things like rage or hatred or violence? Well, you know, ignorance is a great place for fear to start. Lack of knowing something. You know, lack of knowledge, a lack of understanding is the basis of human fear.

And I think that that starts very early in our evolution. Kind of the unknown place in the landscape in the African savannas or the unknown, the thing that's unknown can be scary because there can be something there that lurks, that's lurking, that's going to eat you, or that's going to chase you. Or, you know, there are lots of different reasons why the unknown can be frightening for human beings. And therefore we get addicted to the known, like the known place, the known path, the known, you know, it just feels safer. And I think in some ways we're conditioned in that regard because of our evolution. So funny, our evolution has so many

different strands, but this is one of them. There's also a part of our evolution that's about exploration, right? So that's where human beings are extremely complex animals, I think. Indeed. Very complex. You know, I wouldn. Indeed. Very complex. If there are aliens out there and they try to understand us, good luck. Good luck with that. Maybe that's why we haven't had the alien invasion, because we're just too vexing.

They're like, I just can't deal with this. I'm working in place. I can't deal with it. It's going to be too much. Whatever. Keep going. What's the next planet? So that's one thing. I think that ignorance is a part of it. Our lack of which is stratified along systems of classification, along race, along gender, along education, along, you know, a whole host of things. We live in stratified societies and part of stratification is the othering. And I am, so you are not therefore I have it's kind of the formulation and so in that there's not a lot of space and flexibility this is why I was saying how a lot

of this is tied to the enlightenment and classifications about who's human and who's not who's deserving who's not etc that I think that that's a part of our society. We do it all the time. So why wouldn't we do that on trans issues? I mean, if you look at the idea of who gets to kill people in this country and who doesn't, it's stratified. Some people get to and some people don't in terms of the law. I mean, effectively in terms of the law. Who gets to violate other people's bodies and who doesn't? I mean, there are all of these ways in which we have this stratification and this othering that's a part of our society. So of course, on some level, that's going to also be tied to gender and gender identity because it's tied to everything else. So we live in an

othering society. I mean, a lot of things that we're talking about are things that we don't like to face in our society, in our country, but they're kind of the undercurrent that block progress. And I think it's time for us to face them. So that othering allows for certain people to be entitled, to have privilege, to advance. And so these things are all bound up together. You end up going back to Georgia, going out to parts of your family, which were outside of Atlanta, part of the story. Way outside. Way outside, right?

And you end up with someone named Mama Rose, who I guess, was it your mom's aunt or your great aunt? Mom's, yeah. Right. And kind of saying like, well, tell me about, you know, tell me about my past. Tell me about my mom's past. Tell me about like what was going on, trying to get a sense for all of this. And at some point end up speaking to your 14 year old, I guess would have been niece. They are effectively my nieces.

They're actually my cousin. But I mean, in our relationship and functionally, they are my nieces. Yeah. I still think they're my babies, even though they're 17, 18 and 16. I love that. And there's this interesting 17, 18, and 16 now. I love that. And there's this interesting moment, right? Where at 14, you're trying to get a beat on like, what's her take on you? She's like, you were a beautiful creature just as God has made you, which is really

interesting because you wouldn't necessarily expect that based on sort of like cultural lore about how somebody of like a certain set of beliefs in a certain part of the world in a certain part of the country in a certain part of a state would view a trans person and yet here you have this this kid looking at you and saying yeah totally cool um which really it broke so many of the narratives. And I'm wondering how that sort of whole experience and moment landed with you. Yeah, I mean, it was really powerful. Because, you know, you don't know what you're going to get. Mama Rose was at the very early stages of Alzheimer's.

She has since left us last year. And we didn't know what we were going to interview her. And then at some point she says, I want to talk. And so then she just did. And like thousands and thousands and thousands of people instantly fell in love with her. Like she's by far the most popular person in that documentary. And I think for all of them, I think for someone who is in their 90s, who went to church every Sunday of their life until they got too ill to do so in the last year of their life, who was very active, who was, you know, extremely religious. And for that person to say, I know who you are, and I love you, and I don't judge you,

and that's not what we're here to do, made me think that if she can be pro-trans, if she can embrace trans people, then what's your excuse? Like, there's no other, you know, she lives in Southwest Georgia, not far from where Jimmy Carter grew up and is African American, you know, in her 10th decade of life. It's seemingly religious, as I say, and would call me by appropriate pronouns. So if that's the case,

what literally is everyone else's excuse? There is none. And it also means that there's wide possibility for us to be able to have rights and understanding. That was also the other thing that I got from that. That the portrayal of things being hopeless and narrow in certain places and open and expansive in others is kind of a myth. And that what we have to do is to talk to people as human beings.

Everybody understands a human story and everybody can relate to that. So let's talk to people in human terms about our humanity and let's see how far that gets us. Yeah, I think it's really, I do agree with everything. And I do feel like we are in this moment. I think there's a window here. So it's interesting to see how you've, you know, when I look at what you actually, you started in 2018, which starts as this docu-series, like as Translash. And now you're really, it's emerged into something much bigger.

Like now this is a policy organization. This is a media company. This is a storytelling and production movement that is championing and helping tell a fuller set of stories. And in no small part, I have to imagine because if so much of the popular narrative comes from stories told in the media, well, then part of the solution has got to be, let's tell a broader, more honest set of stories. So I'm just going to take that clip and play that in every meeting. Thank you so much. Yeah, no, I think that that's exactly

right. It is the answer. And then the more stories we create about ourselves, it then creates the pressure on media to do more. You know, we're helping to shape pop culture and they're responding to things that we're doing. And I think that that's absolutely right. We are the only ones who can tell people who we are and all of the things that we're interested in and why we are human just like everybody else and why we deserve the same things that everyone else does for the exact same reason. Only we can do that to an effective degree because only we know what it's like to be trans. It's very hard for someone who is not trans to actually tell trans stories accurately in a way that is compelling and authentic. It's very hard. So we have to do that.

And I think what's great about Gen Z is that there are so many ways that we can reach them with these stories. I was actually talking to the head of the Trevor Project recently that's devoted to keeping LGBTQ alive centered around mental health and suicide prevention and was saying how they have documented research that shows that kids who see story, let me say young people for the 16-year-olds listening, that young people who see their stories reflected accurately in the media are several times less likely to commit suicide. So it is essential and vital work. Yeah, so powerful, so powerful. Feels like a good place, I think, for us to start to come full circle in our conversation as well. Sitting here in this container, a good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life is about possibility that originates from you owning yourself, owning your gifts, and bringing them into a world that makes space for you and is receptive.

That's an amazing life. Thank you. Thank you. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. Thank you. Thank you. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. I love being able to learn for people who live different lives from me, but also share their humanity and open my mind.

And that brings us to Tristan Reese. After years of on-the-ground advocacy, Tristan burst into the public consciousness on a global scale in 2017 when he and his partner told their non-traditional transgender pregnancy story. As the director of family formation at Family Equality Council, a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting LGBTQ plus families and those who wish to form them. Tristan shares his family's origin story with audiences across the country on a mission to open a constructive dialogue, really expand the public conversation about trans reproductive justice, queer families, and what it means to be a father, and inspire understanding and change, and also how to have hard yet important conversations

with people. Here's Tristan. I actually have often thought about the sort of similarities between a trans identity and that of an immigrant, of going from one place to another and what you give up when you move somewhere with a totally different culture and what you want to keep, but are sort of pressured to leave behind. And it was a slow transition for me, really realizing like, oh, I want to move here. You know, in fact, I, you know, this is who I am. And so I think there were just fits and starts and putting a foot out of the closet and trying to tell people, you know, I'm actually transgender. And this is like year 2000, 2001. This is the dark ages in trans community time. And I was told in so many large and small ways that I could not possibly be a man.

I could not possibly be transgender. You know, I was too feminine. I was attracted to men. It was just like there was such a conflation of gender expression and gender identity and sexual orientation, all of those things, even within the trans community, even within the LGBT community. And so, you know, I was just, you know, I believed them. Maybe I was wrong.

And so there's like it was it was a messy and slow process. And I think all the way up until I started taking testosterone, I just wasn't exactly sure. Everyone was telling me that, you know, this just couldn't possibly be. And I didn't have any role models to be the kind of man that I wanted to be in the kind of trans person I wanted to be. But once I started transitioning medically, I was like, Oh, thank God, like this fixes so many insecurities I had. It was like it was coming home. And every day along that way was just coming more and more home and being more and more myself and more and more authentic and being able to get rid of all the stuff and just be myself in the world. What's also happening in conversations with your parents?

You know, because this is this has got to be you've got parents who sound like they're really cool and really progressive and very open. Also living in a place which is super conservative. And tell me a little bit about the conversation that's unfolding between you during this window. I mean, just like the rest of the story, it's just really messy, you know, steps forward, steps back. I mean, at this point I had moved out of the house. I was, you know, 20, 22, you know, I'm, I'm in, I'd moved to Portland by then. And, you know, so I just kind of visited with them sometimes and wasn't sure how much to share and how they'd respond. And sometimes I would sort of drop a little hint and then get a really bad response.

So then I just sort of like not share for a little while. And I think there was just, you know, you know, I think there was just one day when I said, you know, mom, it's time. And I've given you the space to come to these realizations on your own. But, you know, mom, it's time. And I've, I've given you the space to come to these realizations on your own, but you know, here's my expectation moving forward. You know, my name is Tristan now, and I want you to refer to me as your son and by, you know, use male pronouns. And, and I know it's going to be a journey for you. I mean, that's, that's not true. I definitely was not that like accepting an open and patient with her at the time. I was in my own process, you know?

So I think there may have been a couple of blowups. But the two of us figured it out and came back together. And now we're really close. Yeah. What was her, beyond just not understanding, beyond having to learn just a new way to relate to you, what were her concerns? Because as a mom, I mean, as a parent, I mean, you're a parent also. So it's like, what was going through her head about concerns? So many.

I mean, so many. I mean, number one, like, I'm a pleaser. You know, I want people to like me. And I think she was just really, really worried that I had fallen in with some kind of crowd in Portland, right? That, like, you know, was tricking me into thinking that I was trans or I was doing it to impress somebody or something like that. I know she was, you know, it's like a fad or a trend and oh my God, what if I change my body? And then I want to go back. There was that concern. There was a concern about like, um, just minimizing my chances of a relationship. You know, it's like, who's going to date you, you know, who will ever love you?

And did she express that to you? Yes, many times. Yes, many, many, many times that I was just narrowing the pool to be so small that it's like, you know, gay men who are also willing to be with someone whose body isn't like other gay men, who I'm also attracted to, who's attracted to me as a person. I think she was just worried it was winnowing. You know, that once you apply those filters down, it's like the results after that are zero. And I, you know, I think every parent, I talked to her about this recently. You know, you first, you think you want your kids to be, you know, wildly successful.

And then you think you want your kids to be happy. But by the time they're adults, you want them to have lives that bring them meaning. And I think first she was worried I wasn't going to be successful. Then she was worried I wasn't going to be happy. And I think she was worried I wasn't going to be able to find meaning in this and in my life. You know, it was just time. It was just time and her seeing me be happy and find meaning. And when I went to performing arts school, and that was the first real place that I had a full community of affirmation around me, around being trans, around my identity as a man. And I was just, you know, held and loved and supported. And I think once she saw that, you know, for me, that was the real that was the real turning point.

When she saw that, we were fine. We were fine. Everything else was just pronouns. So it's like she realizes, OK, you know, like he actually, he's got people who love him who will be around him. He's got like, it's, yeah. I mean, the other thing that I wonder about is whether part of the conversation or at least in her mind or maybe the conversation you had was around safety. A huge part. Yeah.

And I mean, the complicating factor is my father is a physician and he's actually an endocrinologist. And he treated transgender people in the 70s in Canada before I was even born, before there was any protocols. I mean, he was really just kind of making it up. And that's who my dad is. Like if someone comes to my dad and needs help, like he will move heaven and earth to just find a way to give them what they need and support them responsibly as a physician. And, you know, people think, oh, well, that must mean that they would have been way more supportive. That's not true. Most parents, when you come to them and you say you're transgender, they're like, what is that?

My parents knew what transgender was. And, you know, being trans in the 70s and 80s, when my parents were interacting with these individuals, like it was extremely hard. And so I think, you know, they have that embodied experience of supporting people who are in extreme distress. And, you know, I know a lot of my dad's patients, you know, they died of AIDS. They were murdered. They killed themselves.

You know, they did not, there were not a lot of options available to them. And I think when I came to my parents and said I was trans, they were gravely concerned for my safety, for my health, for just what is my trajectory? Where am I going to end up? And they didn't want that for their kid. And so they tried to talk me out of it many times. And we know you can't talk someone out of being trans. You can't bully them out of being trans. You can't shame them out of being trans. You know, you can, you can talk them into hating themselves. You can bully them into wishing that their lives were over and, you know, and, and, and that's pretty much what ends up happening is, is people end up, you know, miserable and

hating themselves and not expecting any better from the world. And I'm really lucky I was able to talk myself out of that. Yeah. And I know, I think I actually heard it from you originally. And tell me if I get this wrong, that the average lifespan of someone who's trans is like, it's only 35 years old. Is that still a valid fact? Yeah. I mean, the data is really hard and I'm a huge nerd. And because I do education, you know, I try really hard to find the best evidence, you

know, and so the data isn't perfect. But according to what we know currently, it does seem as though the average life expectancy is 35 for a trans person in America and certainly lower for trans women and certainly lower for trans women of color. So when we when we look at the interplay between sexism and racism, you know, we look at and there are lots of things that we do know factually to be true. You know, trans people are four times more likely to live on $10,000 a year or less in America. You know, so when we look at rates of incarceration, homelessness, I mean, those things, there's very clear and unequivocal data on that. And it's extremely difficult to live your best life

and to be able to achieve your goals and bring all of your gifts to the world when you're constantly facing, you know, these barriers. You're in the world of performing arts, but you also become really involved in activism and advocacy. How does that all start to unfold? Yeah, I mean, I moved to LA and, you know, I ended up having coffee with a friend of mine and I was like, you do something like activism, right? Can I like volunteer or something? He's like, yeah, I work for the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. We're working on all these campaigns in LA.

Like come and volunteer. And I just loved it. I loved it so much. And yeah, then I stopped doing theater and I ended up getting hired at the task force and spent eight years traveling the country, supporting these local LGBT communities who are facing really vicious attacks at the ballot box. And then when the time came for us as a movement, we realized like we just don't have enough people on our side.

We just don't. You know, we've been riding the Harvey Milk wave of just coming out for so long. And the data just showed us that it wasn't enough anymore. It got us where it got us. But then what's next? And we found that even people who knew LGBT people would still show up at the ballot box and vote to take away marriage and vote to not protect people from discrimination. And we realized we needed to be having different conversations with the straight people in our lives and with the straight people that we didn't know. And so then I became part of a team that really the movement invested in us learning how to do that, how to change people's minds and get them

to be pro marriage and pro non-discrimination and pro trans. And, and yeah. And so then I spent a few years doing that. Yeah. I mean, I'm fascinated by that too, because there's, there's a problem. I mean, you're literally going out into the world looking for people who not only disagree with what you believe, but disagree with your very existence. Yep. And then saying, hey, can I talk to you? Yeah. With the intention of completely changing their mind. Not a minor task.

And it's kind of fascinating. I've heard you describe that there's actually a fairly linear step-by-step process of having that conversation that is incredibly powerful. Can you break it down a little bit for me? Because I'm really curious about this. Totally. I mean, there's like really interesting social sciences on this as well, because like not only is there a linear way that you can have the conversation, but it's actually a pretty linear, I mean, it's actually more spiraled than anything else. But there's a way that people move forward through like total ignorance to like rejection and defense to sort of colorblindness. Can't we all just get along? I don't see you as being different, you know, to like, okay, fine. You're different and okay, to like really, you know, celebration and acceptance.

Yeah. And I think just learning the science of that, I'm, I mentioned already, I'm a nerd, so that was like super cool. But yeah, you know, the way that these conversations would go is, you know, you're really, you're actually not as an LGBT person, the way that the psychology of bias works, I can't actually reach someone who is in the very beginning stages. So if I ask someone, like, do you know how you're going to vote on the gay marriage law? If they say like, yeah, you know, I hate those gay people. I would never cool by, I can't reach them. You know, for every stage someone's in, they have a message they need to hear. And they also have a messenger they need to hear it from. Right. So those like super, super, super anti people,

I'm never going to reach them. I'm not going to waste my time. But those people who are like, yeah, I don't know. It just seems weird. Gay. Great. That's my people. Or like, oh, well, you know, it's not that I'm a bigot or anything. I just think that marriage means something and it means something. It's for straight people. Great. That's my person because that little shadow of openness, you know, that's what I want. The metaphor that I actually give is it's like you're walking side by side with someone through the woods. You're looking for the light. You know, often there's no path, there's no clearing, but there's a light where the, where the sun is coming through and you know, that's the way to go. And so, yeah, you know, always just, you know, if it's on marriage or really anything, you just ask them about themselves.

You're open and curious. You want to know who they are. What do they care about? What do they value? And it's, you know, it's both a strategy because you want to know what their values are so you can frame your conversation in alignment with their values. But it's also a self-hack because sometimes if you've experienced a harm or a wound around your identity, around a particular part of

your identity, the amygdala, you know, that part of your brain that's trying to protect you only sees in black and white. And it's going to, if you let it, you know, it will lead you to see someone as an enemy because that's its job. And so by asking someone about themselves, you also hack your own defense mechanism to get out of the amygdala and into the, you know, the better part of your brain, the cerebral cortex, so that you can connect with them as a person. So I don't see you as someone who's bad.

You're not a bigot. You're like a human being who's on a journey like me. And I want to learn about you and I want you to learn about me. And so then once I figure out, like, what do they care about? You know, if they say they care about tradition,

if they say they care about family, they care about love, they care about community, whatever it is that they care about. And there are sort of core American values. All of us hold in varying degrees. You know, I have my story

that can be told through all those lenses. So whatever I hear them say, you know, if it is about community, I talk about how important it is that everyone in the community have access to the same rights and privileges that they do, including their, you know, their gay and lesbian neighbors. And then I'll say, you know, in your community, do you have any, do you have any neighbors? Is there anyone at your church? Is there anyone at your work? You know, if it's

community, if it's family, I talk about my family, you know, in my family growing up, I was taught that when a kid needs a home, you show up for them. And that's what LGBT people all over the country want to do. They want to show up for these kids who need them. And it is really hard to have a safe home for a kid when the parents can't get married. You know, whatever it is that their values are, that's where we want to live is in that the crossover and the Venn diagram. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like as you're, you're developing the ability to have these conversations and going out into the world and, and becoming really effective at changing other people's minds. Part of that process is necessarily holding yourself open to the possibility of having

your mind, your perception changed as well. A hundred percent. And that, that openness, I would imagine it's so important to either side, sort of like saying, huh, I never thought about it that way. Yeah. I mean, it's fascinating. I don't know if it's true today, but definitely 10 years ago when I was doing this work, honestly, a lot of straight people just never really thought about it. So even if you ask them, like, so you said that you have a friend, Tom, at work, you know, who is gay. So if Tom and his partner got married, how do you think that might

impact your day-to-day life? Not asking it in a passive-aggressive way, but truly, like, let's think about this together, you and me. Most of them had never actually thought about it. And it sounds so ridiculous for those of us who are more progressive, you know, but you have to, you know, you just have to let go of that judgment part and just be with them on the journey and be open to being changed. You know, that's a big part is for you as the person that wants to change their mind. You have to have that openness and say, oh, you know, thank you so much for sharing that story. I mean, it's interesting to me also, because part of what it, what it, what seems like is happening there too, is that you're the one who's initiating this conversation.

Whereas I wonder if a lot of people don't initiate the conversation because they're terrified of getting it wrong, of saying the wrong thing, of entering the conversation the wrong way, of, quote, making the problem worse, whether that's certainly part of the self-talk that eliminates, that stops two people from sitting down saying, oh, probably both of us are going to get it wrong on some way, shape, or form, and we'll figure it out.

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, it's funny because the work that I did became its own nonprofit and its own project, which is still doing persuasion work. And it was actually this American Life episode about it. The data shows, the longitudinal data now shows that having a one-on-one conversation with someone and having this level, it's called long-form persuasion. But having this kind of conversation is the single most effective way you can change someone's mind on LGBT issues. It's the most resource intensive. It's hard to scale. But it doesn't work on everything. They tried it with abortion, doesn't work on abortion. So there are some things it doesn't work on and some things it works great on. And LGBT issues is one of them. And because last year we hit the 10 years since the No on 8 campaign, there was a research project out of a university who went back and found those voters we talked to.

Not only were their minds still changed 10 years later compared to voters who did not get this treatment, this conversation, they remembered who we were. No kidding. Yeah. And they may not remember like, oh, I talked to Tristan. They'll be like, oh yeah, I talked to the skinny guy who had a lip ring because I had a lip ring back then. You know, they remember those conversations because when do we do this? We're in the Twitterverse now. When does someone sit down and say like, I, I care about what you have to say. I care about your perspective and I'm open to hearing if, if something you say comes out messy,

if you say isn't, I don't know, man, I just think being gay is kind of gross. Like if I'm open to hearing that and I'm not going to judge you and be like, screw you, dude. You know, if I say, yeah, you know what? I totally get that this is new and different. And to be honest with you, I don't really want to know what you do in your bedroom either. But at the end of the day, I would never stand in the way of you being able to marry the person that you love and being able to have the family

that you wish you had. So, so talk to me a little bit about like, like, let's forget about what it is I do in my private life. Let's talk about who I am as a person. Cause I get from you that I don't think that you would ever want to prevent me from just like doing my thing and like finding my own little version of happiness in my house. Is that right, man? You know, like having that, that conversation where I don't take the bait, you know what I mean? Where I don't, you know, I don't let that part of me that is like angry and scared. It's almost like the reactive part. It's like, yeah, just like breathe and like, okay, huh?

Yeah. And I tried to just like let go of the words and get to the core of it, which is, you know, fundamentally, like usually those dudes, like they're just so scared. You know, they're so scared about a different way of being a man. They've had it beaten into their head, sometimes literally, that there is one way to do being a man. And a person comes along that has liberated themselves from that. And how scary and how frustrating and how disappointing and how sad

that they were lied to. You know what I mean? They were lied to. There isn't one way of doing being a man. And fundamentally, I mean, when like in the Twitterverse, like that's what fragile masculinity is. It's men who've been told over and over and over again that they are failing at being a boy, at being a young man, at being a man. They are told in so many ways. And so it's fragile. Their sense of manhood is, you know, masculine.

It's fragile. It can be broken easily. And queer people break it. Yeah. And that's where that anger and the retaliation comes from. Right. Because, I mean, if your model of the world is one way and then that gets shattered, then you're grappling in a space of complete uncertainty.

And then your brain probably also goes, well, what else? What else? Right. Yep. It's the house of cards. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And with religion too, you know, there's like the top three things that people would say and what a big one was religion. And that's, that's another thing that's like, oh my God, if the church told me that being gay is wrong and being gay isn't wrong, then what's right? What, what else is? What else is there? And I think having that compassion, it's very hard to access and you have to have done a lot of healing. So you're speaking from your scar and not your wound, but having compassion for someone who was told by people they loved and trusted very much that being gay was wrong. They're willing

to be with you in that struggle. They're willing to reach out halfway to say, okay, I'm going to consider this, even though it's really hard. You have to then reach out halfway too and say, yeah, man, I know it's hard. I know it's hard and I'm going to be with you and I hear you and like, let's work through it together. And unfortunately in our, in our sort of, I think we've gotten even further away from the ability to have this kind of vulnerable conversation. Yeah. Because we're in cancel culture, because we're in the Twitterverse, because, you know, our executive branch is modeling us the exact complete opposite.

And people who, and people on the left who are taking that bait and who are pointing fingers and canceling people, they're being lauded as warriors. And it's like, cool, man, that feels so good for you. It feels really good, but it is not eliminating transphobia and homophobia and racism. And like, that's what I care about. And I just want to do strategically whatever gets us there. And there's data on what we can do that gets us there. I don't care about feeling good. I don't, you know, I don't care about putting someone else down so that I get more likes on social media. No, I want to live in a world where every trans person gets to do all the things that

they could ever dream of and be free. And like screaming at a transphobic person on the internet doesn't get us there. So like, why would we do it? Why would we do it? Yeah. So as you're out, you're out in the world having these conversations, spending time with people, long form conversations, a lot of it is around marriage equality, right? What's happening in your mind about your own possibilities for relationships and for marriage? Yeah, I mean, it was both because I did a lot of trans stuff and I did a you know, mostly in small towns, you know, there was really, really brutal campaigns coming out to try and keep, like retain laws that made it legal to fire some, a transfer person from their job, kick them out of their house, not let them into your university. Right.

And so I think doing both of those works, it was really fun. I loved it. I was super good at it. It's a good challenge. I like a hard puzzle, you know? But yeah, you know, I think internally that was really the struggle of like, you know, I'm fighting for marriage, but will I ever be able to get married? And I definitely didn't think I was. And I'm fighting for trans rights when it's like, you know, do I even believe I'll have a life worth living? Because for me, like, you know, I wanted to be loved. I wanted to have a family. And I didn't know any trans people who had, who had done any of those things. And so it was really, yeah, it was, it was hard because the work is hard. And it was also hard personally because, you know, I wanted to get married.

And here I was fighting for this thing that I thought I would never be able to exercise. That changes though. Yeah. You meet someone. Yeah. You meet someone. Yeah. I was trying to remember if it was actually 2009 or 2010 when I met the person who would later, you know, become my partner. But yeah, at that point in my young adult life, I was like 25, 26. I really had just like, I wouldn't say given up on, but I just decided like, okay, I can keep beating on this door of like a serious relationship, or I can just like do a lot of internal work.

And so I just thought, you know, why don't I just get awesome? So like when and if the right person comes along, like I will be someone that they want to be in a relationship. And so, you know, it's sort of like before you, even if not, you'll still be awesome. So it's all good. Total win. Win, win. Yeah.

But it is like before you open your store, it's like, you know, you want to you want the foundation to be good. You want the lights to work, you know, you know, so like I went to therapy. I like, you know, continue to read a lot. I got I try to travel as much as I possibly could. I just really wanted to be solid, you know, and this is before the self-care movement. So there wasn't as much self-improvement sort of out there, but I tried really hard. And then, yeah, just one day, like quite literally out of the blue, like turned around a corner on the way to a friend's party and almost literally bumped into, you know, someone who had just like, it was just like in the movies. Like I saw him and it was like the clouds parted and the angels sang. And there was just something about him that just called to me and felt, you know, it just felt like family.

It just felt like home immediately. So familiar. And he did not feel that way about me at all. So it was like completely one-sided, which is fine. I was not to be deterred. But we were going to the same event. We had this mutual, these mutual friends and we went to the brunch and, and, and yeah, I just, he was just, you know, everything.

He was just everything from the beginning. So you end up falling in love. You now have a beautiful family with three kids and you're in New York right now because you're doing sort of like a whirlwind of educational stuff. So it seems like you've just continued to build on that early momentum and said, like, how do I keep telling this story? How do I keep telling it in a way that is most inviting, most open, builds a conversation? And that has really become this is what you do. Like, this is your profession.

It's your livelihood. It's your, it's more than that for you. It's like, this is the thing you can't not do. Yeah, it's my calling. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like there's this through line in your life of doing the right thing. Just feeling like this is, there's something in you

which says this is the right thing to do. Like this is what you do, a sense of duty almost. Yeah, yeah, totally. And also like this is what I was trying to do. Yeah. I could literally look at America and be like, where is America on the scale of understanding trans people? What skills did I apply face-to-face at the door?

This is a chance to do the face-to-face work with millions of people all at once using media, using the New York Times and Washington Post and CNN and NBC, like using these people who have this giant microphone and diagnosing where America is, where's that movable middle, what are their values, what do they care about? And then how can I tell my story using those values and move them all forward all at once? As we sit here in this container of the good life project, if I offer up this phrase to live a good life,

what comes up? I mean, for me, it's like, it's living in the intersections of like, what are your gifts? What are the world's greatest need? And what brings you joy?

And living in that space where you're great at what you do, where you're giving the world what it needs and you find meaning in it. To me, that's what a good life is. Thank you. And that's what I get to do every day. I feel incredibly blessed to have the opportunity to learn from wise and generous people like Amara and Tristan and share their stories and insights here on Good Life Project. The more we know and see and understand people from all walks of life, the bigger, more connected our lives and our worlds become. Before you leave, if you love this episode, safe bet you will also love the full length conversations

that we had with Amara and Tristan. You'll find a link to their episodes in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable, and chances are you did since you're still listening here, would you do me a personal favor, a seven second favor and share it?

Maybe on social or by text or by email, even just with one person. Just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those you know, those you love, those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen. Then even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that's how we all come alive together.

Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg.

You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.