Good Life Project - Byron Katie: Doing The Work and Awakening to Joy.

Episode Date: October 23, 2017

In 1986, at the bottom of a ten-year spiral into depression, Byron Katie woke up one morning to a state of constant joy that has never left her.She realized that when she believed her stressful thoughts, she suffered, but that when she questioned them, that suffering gave way to truth and then joy, and that this is true for every human being.Over a period of years, she distilled her simple yet powerful process of inquiry into what is now called The Work; four questions and a set of turnarounds that let you see and step into a new reality that exists beyond suffering. One that allows you to become free.Katie (as she goes by) has been bringing The Work to millions of people for more than thirty years now, publishing the bestselling Loving What Is, I Need Your Love—Is That True? and A Thousand Names for Joy,In this in-depth conversation, Byron Katie is joined by her husband, scholar and bestselling author, Stephen Mitchell, to explore her journey and also dive into their newest collaboration, a book on seminal Buddhist text, The Diamond Sutra entitled A Mind at Home with Itself.--------------Check out our offerings & partners: Visit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Let's say I'm a little four or five-year-old child. I'm playing, I'm happy, I have this amazing life. And my mother says, Byron Kathleen, you are unlovable. And I don't love you. And what I can see today is that is absolutely not a problem. So if you've heard the name of today's guest, Byron Katie, it's probably in conjunction with something called The Work. When Katie, as she goes by, was sort of in the middle years of her life with a family in the mid 80s, She was entering probably the close to 10 years

of a deep, all-consuming depression until one day she was lying on the floor and quite literally experienced a moment of awakening into a state of what some might even call enlightenment. She lost her sense of the past, of the future, felt only the presence and almost had to relearn what the world was and who she was in the world, and was in that moment also transmitted some deeper understanding of the difference between reality and illusion, suffering and joy, and spent the next few years developing a process of inquiry, which she calls the work, which is a very simple set of four questions that she has then taught now to millions of people to help them question their own realities and discover what is true, what is false, in the name of removing

suffering in all of our lives. I had the chance to sit down with her and her husband, Stephen Mitchell, who is a deep scholar in his own right, especially in Eastern traditions and philosophies. And they have a new book out now called A Mind at Home with Itself. It's an exploration of a very classic text called the Diamond Sutra, which is one of the most profound and somewhat esoteric deep dives around what is real and the essence of who we are and to get their lens on this, to just have a chance to really sit down with Katie, get her take on this, to have her share her personal story firsthand, and then also have Stephen's contribution and his lens on this story and his experience of it as they've moved together in the later part of their lives. It was really powerful.

Excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk. So good to be hanging out with both of you today. It's funny because it's sort of an odd twist.

I actually was familiar with Stephen's work before I was familiar with your work, Katie. Yes, that's usually the case. Is that really? No, no, no, no. No? It's sometimes the case. Oh, no, no, no. I funnel It's sometimes the case. Oh, no, no, no. I funnel people to her.

That's my function in life. So you're like the starter, and then you're like, okay, so now. I'm like the starter drug. Get to the more serious stuff. That's great. And we've heard the other way around as well. That's true, yeah. So many people not familiar with your wonderful work.

Yeah, that's great. So I thought, in my mind, it'd be fun to sort of take a step back in time, because I know many of our listeners will have a sense for who you are, Katie, but many also, this may be the first time that they're hearing from you. And so let's kind of dip a little bit back into your personal story. And I think it probably makes sense to go all the way back to 86. And maybe if you could paint a bit of a picture of what life was like before 86 for you. It was a world full of depression, my own depression. And the depression was so deep, it was more than a decade. And it was so deep, I didn't believe I could even live. Very suicidal.

And then one morning, as I lay sleeping on the floor, because I didn't believe I was worth even a bed to sleep in, that's depressed. When I look back on it, I think, oh, my goodness. You slept with a gun under your pillow. Yeah, very paranoid as well. What was the fear that led you to sleep with a gun under your pillow? You know, looking back on it, I have no idea.

It's just blind fear. And three children that I was trying to raise at the same time and make the house payment, et cetera. And you could sometimes barely even leave your room for weeks at a time. Couldn't shower, couldn't brush your teeth. Yeah, just, you know, a life ended, and I was still breathing. But one day as I lay sleeping on the floor, actually, a cockroach crawled over my foot, and I opened my eyes, and it's as though I was just witnessing, you know, I was just witnessing. I don't have a description for that yet. I don't know how

to speak of it. Maybe I'll never understand how to speak of it. But what I did see is that when I believed my thoughts, I suffered. And when I didn't believe my thoughts, I didn't suffer. And I saw that on the floor. I more than saw it, I experienced it. Because it's like this witness, this unspeakable witness, was just seen. And it was like a birth into the world of just consciousness and just pure consciousness. And then I saw that as thoughts began to hit my head, everything began to have a name, like window and sky and ceiling and floor and even Katie.

It was, you know, everything had an end at that point. I began to laugh. And it's like I just got some kind of great joke that had been played on all of us. You know, I've seen that all of us in the world, we believe our thoughts, we suffer. But to question them, you know, that's the way out of this maze for me. And so, of course, I invite people to identify their judgments and assumptions when they're hurt or suffering in any way, that they just identify those judgments and assumptions and question them. And I also, Jay, love to say that the way to question, there are only four questions, and the work, I call it the work, it's always free at thework.com.

Everything I have that has any value is free there and how to do it. And it's anyone with an open mind can do this. I think of other people suffering unnecessarily, which was my case. And I think anyone that suffers, once we learn how to question the cause of suffering, we begin to experience a life worth living. But I have something to add to that. The remarkable thing about that moment on the floor in 1986 was that all the depression and all the anxiety and fear and suicidal thoughts and everything else were gone instantly, never came back. And what was left was this deep sense of

joy and peace. Now, their enlightenment experiences are not uncommon. What's uncommon about Katie's experience, and I speak from a knowledge of the literature and many different spiritual traditions, what's rare is that she was at that moment also given a way to maintain that state of mind. People sometimes pop into states of great rapture and joy and clarity, and then it fades. They lose it somehow. But what Katie was given was a mind, a questioning mind that can maintain that state of deep peace when thoughts arise that would otherwise pop her out of it. So in the 31 years since that experience, it's been a very constant state of this pure, what you can call joy or peace. The opposite of depression, for sure.

And I think joy is by definition, and we all have our own definition of joy. For me, it's the absence of suffering. I was speaking with a friend a while back. It was interesting because his lens on depression was, so many people would say the opposite of depression is happiness. He had an interesting lens, which I'm curious what maybe both of your thoughts are, which is that he felt the opposite of depression was curiosity. Exactly so. And I think a questioned mind, an inquiring mind is a curious mind because without what we're believing, everything opens up. So it really is that. I love that.

When you were in your darkest time, you mentioned you had three kids. Have you talked with them over the years about how they were experiencing you during that window? And then upon this awakening, how that shifted for them? Just over and over and over and over. Anytime we're together, this shows up. And in one way or another, even in just very small, minor ways now. But actually, every year on my birthday, we all get together. My three children and me, their spouses aren't invited, my grandchildren aren't invited, Stephen's not invited. You have to have been in Katie's womb to be invited.

And they spend three, we spent three days together. And, oh, it is marvelous. And now there's just not a lot to talk about. Everyone's so respectful and understanding and kind. It's as though one person gets free and it changes the entire family dynamic. But originally, as you asked the question, where my mind also went was my daughter, for one thing, said she had so much fear that the old mother would return again, that it took her quite a while, all three of them, to adjust that I wasn't going to flip into this world of depression

that they were so used to. And rage. And, yeah, and rage. You know, confusion is, it's not a friendly, it's not a friendly world. The most dramatic thing I think that any of them have said, her younger son Ross said before the change, I couldn't look into my mother's eyes. After the change, I couldn't stop looking into them. So that says a lot. Yeah, it does.

But there's this radical shift. And they're wonderful parents. And they're good people. And their sense of understanding. And I'm just really happy that they have such good, lovely lives. When you started to sort of live this new life, essentially, how did others around you receive that and receive you? Well, distrustful at first, for sure. And then, you know, I've been sharing this lately. I noticed one day I was sitting on a

park bench and then, you know, people would come sit down, of course. And then the next day, I noticed sitting on that park bench that maybe one or two of the same people would show up again. And then I noticed one day, sitting on the park bench, that there was a queue, a line of people standing up to wait to sit there with me. So it was, for one thing, I became a listener. Because when you really have no, as we say, no life sounds a bit strange, but no self, we might say, like no self. It's like, I don't have a self I'm interested in. So that leaves me just fascinated by other people and connected to other people. It's like I don't have a self I'm interested in. So that leaves me just fascinated by other people and connected to other people. It's such a beautiful thing to be connected to the world when I was distant from it for so many years.

Well, and there were dramatic things that happened at that time. She would walk around town in this state of rapture, and eventually... It took me a while to balance, not to be more or less, but just in the center, you know, that balance, an unrecognizable balance, even though after seeing what I said, it may sound a little strange, but at first it was quite an adjustment. People began to call her the lit lady. And, you know, they started to knock on her door because what she had was something everybody wanted. And so it went on from there. Well, I wouldn't say everyone.

Well, a lot of us. But as word began to pass around from one to the other, then people were calling me from literally all over the world. And I had no idea what they wanted, but I did know what peace is. And I, you know, I do know what suffering is, and I know what peace is. And it's really, it's really difficult for people, we'll say suffering, people that are confused in their lives. It's really difficult to have a good life. It's really difficult to even decisions, the simplest decisions sometimes are just can be difficult. Do you have a sense for, like Stephen shared that people were coming

to you because there was something about you that they wanted or they wanted to feel do you have a sense for what that was? Well I'm immovable in what I recognize and so I can't be swayed

and that may sound like a stubbornness and yet it's the extreme opposite but I guess you could say that people trust that That may sound like a stubbornness, and yet it's the extreme opposite. But I guess you could say that people trust that. I trust it. Yeah, I would say it this way, that there's a radiance about her. It's very attractive. It's almost magnetically attractive to some people. It's what attracts people to the great ancient texts,

like the Bhagavad Gita and the Tao Te Ching, etc. There's something in us that recognizes that it's possible to be happy all the time. And I think that's what draws people to the work, as well as to Katie personally, even though she's not interested in the woman, Byron Katie, there's something else that is much more important to her. But a lot of people start that way by being interested in the woman, Byron Katie. And I think that is, you know, I don't have a mind that anticipates or remembers. I have a mind that's present. And I can talk out of

the past and future, but I don't have a way of attaching to it because I can see that that's not reality. That's imaging. That's not really a past. Like we drove over here in a car, we were driven over here in a car, and I see that clearly, but I can see me in that car, but that's not myself. And then Stephen and I talked about getting a coffee after our time with you together, and I can see me at a coffee shop, you know, in my mind's eye, that future, but it doesn't mean that we're going to a coffee shop. It really doesn't mean anything. And I see me at the coffee shop, but that's not me. So when people are talking out of what I'm describing now. But once we become aware of that is not

self in the past, and that is not self I see in the future, then we're no longer confused about, you know, false identity, false worlds. And it's so easy just to be just right here, right now. It's so simple. I think the depression I came out of, I'm just so grateful that this is all there is. And there's no worry in my life because I don't anticipate, even though my mind can see what we would call past-future. There's nothing concrete about it, so therefore nothing to worry over. And so my life is about just saying yes and moving inquiry to as many people as possible. The end of suffering, the absence of suffering, because we make better choices that way.

We're kinder, we're connected, we're wiser because we're in touch with wisdom. And as you mentioned earlier, one of my favorites, Curious. Mayday, mayday, we've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg.

You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, Charge time and actual results will vary. One of the things that there's so much that I would love to dive into just from that with you, and I know we'll get a chance to do some of that. One of the things that came to me when I first heard your story and sort of like the moment and how it's changed you since then

is that whenever you hear, not whenever, let's not use absolutes, but often when you hear a story of somebody who's awakened in some way and in some level there is, along with that, some sort of almost dissociative experience. The sort of Western world, the modern lens and medicine wants to label that. They want to label that as something wrong, as disease, as a condition. I'm curious whether that was part of your early journey,

sort of like whether those labels were sort of thrust upon you or people wanting to say that this was something other than what you feel you experienced. Yeah, it seemed great. I can see how people can see it that way, certainly in the beginning, because I couldn't say, I want a drink of water, because it was just completely untrue. And so it took a long time to even learn to talk. And then in that process of learning to talk, that it really is a service, that it was just very, very clumsy. Because who, after living 43 years in a lie wants to teach more lying?

So I want to drink of water. You know, there was just not necessary from the place I was standing. You know, it sounds a little strange, but I obviously don't want to drink of water. I want to stand here now because the water's in the future. So it wouldn't make any sense to me. So I was teaching lying every time I would open my mouth. So it was difficult to step into and seemed, I'm sure, crazy to a lot of people. Like maybe I'd be leaving the house in my pajamas. And my daughter would say, Mom, you know, we don't wear those out into the world.

We wear those only in the evening and only in the house. And maybe she would say, Mom, you don't wear a red sock and a blue sock. You know, you wear socks that match. So really I was kind of, I had to learn all over again on what we do here on earth was kind of my experience. You know, I'm new, I'm new. And now I'm not. Now I'm very comfortable. It just, it was just a little, a learning process along the way. That fascinates me because Katie was coming to all of these deep insights without any support by the family, by the community.

She had never read any of the great spiritual texts. I mean, the fact that there is no self is one of the central insights of the Buddha, for example. Usually, even people who have been meditating for decades understand that and live that at a certain level, but not at such a deep level that they can't say the word I within their own integrity. I mean, this is just popping into the world as a newborn with this clarity. Did you just say that people had that experience? Well, the Buddha said the central characteristics of existence are impermanence, and unsatisfactoriness or suffering, and non-self. That's one of the three basic characteristics. And you somehow landed there

without knowing that anyone had ever perceived that before. And to me, when I first met Katie in 2000, I was fascinated with the things that would come out of her mouth, because inside I was saying, that's straight from an Upanishad, or that's exactly what the Tao Te Ching says, and she would have no idea. So I thought this was marvelously refreshing for somebody like me, who was steeped in all these traditions,

to be hearing it, as it were, straight from the horse's mouth, in plain American that cats and dogs can read, you know, here's this relatively uneducated woman saying the great insights of the great masters and having no idea that anyone's ever seen this before. I couldn't have been more delighted. And your background also, you spent 10, 15 years deep into Zen practice. 27. 27.

Oh, sorry, I cut in half about it. It's okay. I want to give you full credit. Thank you, thank you. That's a lot of sitting, a lot of sitting. Yeah, well earned hearing his stories. And also steeped in... 27 years, three days, four hours.

Exactly. Well, including a lot of long solitary retreats. So I had put my time in and also deeply involved in the Jewish tradition. So I came with that background. And I think with anything less, I would not have been able to be with Katie, certainly not to be her husband. Because it's like in the Tibetan Book of the Dead, when you die and experience the clear light, unless you've had practice under your belt, it's like coming out of a dark theater. You just have to shade your eyes. It's too much for you. The brilliance

sends you back into most people, into another rebirth and in another realm. But if you've had enough practice, you are open to that radiance and you actually understand that it's you. It's who you essentially are. So I had been prepared. Yeah. I mean, you had a background that allowed you to recognize something that I would guess very few others in the world would have immediately seen. Well, I think a lot of people, well, I know a lot of people when they first see Katie fall in love with her, and thank goodness I'm not the jealous type. But it's not uncommon. There's something about authenticity that even children can recognize.

How did you guys meet, actually, since I have you both here? Well, this short version is that my literary agent said I had to meet her. And he had in the back of the mind that I would be able to write a book with her. And something else happened as well. So that's the short version. Katie, do you remember the first time you guys met? Yes. I was doing events in Marin County and staying with a friend. And Stephen had called several times and my friend would answer the phone and try to connect us. And I was very busy at the time. And so eventually we did connect. She made an arrangement with Stephen to meet me in my friend's house and at a specific time when I wasn't working. It was 10 o'clock on January 23, 2000. I met her

at 10.03. I looked into her eyes and that was it. So he walked in with this big pile of books, right? No, Michael had brought, Michael, in trying to convince Katie to take him on as a literary agent, her reaction was, you know, I don't have a book. And he said, oh, yes, you do. This went on for quite a while. And I kept assuring him that no, I did not. I wasn't interested. And so then he pulled in Stephen like a magic trick. He brought Katie 12 of my books. This delights me, this part of it. She never even opened one of them. She gave them away. She wasn't a reader. And I think that's fabulous. I love that part. So I had this little book, this little book.

12-page pamphlet. Yeah, 12-page, very small pamphlet, like a tiny little book. And in fact, I called it the little book. But it's still free on thework.com today. And it's in 36 or 39 different languages. And it pretty much guides people into their own suffering and then just a way to walk people out of it. It's just pure inquiry. For example, let's say I'm a little four or five-year-old child. I'm playing. I'm happy. I have this amazing life. And my mother says, Byron Kathleen, you are unlovable. And I don't love you. And what I can see today is that is absolutely not a problem. There's no cruelty in it.

There's no way to blame her for it, because I've come to see that when we believe our thoughts, we suffer and we say things that we are so sorry for and feel so guilty over. But when we believe our thoughts, we live out of that thought process. And so she said, I don't love you. And so that is complete. If I'm not experiencing compassion and connection with her, because it's painful to see someone that way. If I'm not seeing that, then there's something way off in me. So I'm just this little girl.

She says, I don't love you. There is zero problem until the moment I believed it. Now, that's my part. I believed it. Just imagine she says that and I don't believe it. So where was the damage done? If I'm using that word loosely, I believed it. So there are a lot of, and that became my identification, I'm the unlovable one. And so I have introducing to people, you know, as my job, the simplicity of how to wake ourselves up from the dream of I am that identity, I am unlovable, in other words. So a person might, that feels

that way, might just ask themselves, is it true? And then meditate on I'm unlovable, is it true? And then meditate on, I'm unlovable. Is it true? And just to develop a practice, let's say in the morning, to get up early and just sit in that practice and contemplate that, that I'm unlovable. Is it true? And then to just witness in that meditation how you react and what happens to your life when you believe the thought you're unlovable. And just to witness what goes on when you, the moment I believed it, that became my identification. So it gives everyone opportunity to see that for themselves. And then that last question, who would you be without the thought? So I can go back and see my mother saying that. Who would I be without the

thought? Who would I be without the thought? I'm unlovable. And there it is, connected to my mother, compassionate, as opposed to living a life of trying to convince her all my life that I'm lovable, and the torture of that, and not just my mother, but other people. So, you know, we're all in this world of seeking love, approval, and appreciation for what we already are. And it's just a matter of waking up to that. And inquiry, it does wake us up to it. And then the next thing I invite people to is to take that assumption or judgment that we've been believing and then to turn it around and try it on as though you were trying on a new pair of shoes or something. But I'm unlovable.

The opposite of that is I'm lovable. Now, for some of us, that's very difficult to hear because it's new. We've never even considered such a thing. So to get very still and close your eyes and just meditate on those loving, caring acts of kindness that we have, that are common for us that we don't, we're not even aware of because we're holding this identity of I'm unlovable so tightly, for example. But then when we get still and I'm lovable and I can just look back and where was I caring toward myself? Where was I caring toward

someone else? Where have I said and done things that I find connect me to other human beings. And in other words, loving, lovable things I do that I would love me for, basically. So it is like coming out of hell, you know, just coming back into a world that we're really living in. But because we're believing our thoughts, we're unaware of that beautiful world. And I've come to see that, you know, beyond my own doubt that the universe is friendly, and there is no opposite to that. But what I'm thinking and believing could lead me to believe otherwise. And I have a word for that. It's called suffering. And another word, confusion. Another word, war. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk.

The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10,

available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. So this new book, A Mind at Home with Itself, it's the entire book. Stephen introduced me to this book. I'd never heard of the Diamond Sutra.

And it's all about gratitude. And when we are living out of our kindest nature, then that sense of gratitude comes with it. And we wouldn't even name it gratitude. It is just a sense of right living and joy, and it's a fearless state of mind and life where we know what our talents are. They're clear to us, and there's nothing to stop us because we're living out of what is right

and a mind that is no longer confused, in other words, fearful, to stop us. No one and nothing can stop us from doing the right thing when our mind is clear. And I really love that for people listening to this podcast to know that there is a way out of suffering, but the world can't give that to me. It's it really, I don't call it the work for nothing. Yeah. And just to sort of create a little bit of structure around what you just offered, the work is you just navigated us through a really beautiful example of the process of inquiry that came to you, which is this asking of these four questions and these things that you identify as turnarounds as a way to, would it be accurate to say, to

develop the habit of testing the thoughts and assumptions that constantly come in and lead to suffering when you grasp onto them as truth? Socrates said an unquestioned life isn't worth living, and I am of that school. It was interesting with the example that you just shared, which was that your experience as a child? Yes. When I think about, you know, as an adult, okay, so I can listen to this, I can receive the process of the work, and it makes sense to me, and I say, okay, I'm open to this. I can receive the process of the work and it makes sense to me. And I say, okay, I'm open to this. You know, they're suffering in my life.

They're thoughts that I have that I'm not okay with. Let me at least, I'm open to it. Let me try it. Four-year-old Byron Kathleen, in your mind, is there a gateway to introduce this process, the work, to somebody much younger in life to create that lens long before the depth of suffering builds up? Yeah, it's just happening. It's happening all over. You know, parents are, they're doing this work and it's shifting their children's lives. And I watch my grandchildren and it's radical watching because

my daughter has the work in her life witnessing my grandchildren. Yeah, it's really... I did an event last night with Eileen Fisher, and the two of us always have so much fun together. She's such a force. And I recall now an audience member stood up and talked about Tiger Tiger, Is It True? Which is one of Katie's books for children, young children, five, six years old. And the questions are there. So there is a way for children to get it. And then parents who are actually taking this on as a practice, inquiry on as a practice,

when their children come home from school, for example, they say, no one likes me, everyone hates me at school. And rather than say, is it true, a parent who really is deep in the work might say to that child, are you sure that no one likes you? No one likes you. Are you really sure? And so we're connected. We're empathetic. We're listening. We're not saying, oh, you know, honey, that's not true.

Just I'll give you some cookies and milk. It's not like that. We're connected. We're listening. And then the child might say, yes, it's true. No one. And then the parents steeped in the work and their own work would easily just continue to listen

and say, you know, you look so upset. How does that feel? What are you going through? What is that like for you? So now the child is learning to get in touch with their emotions and in touch with what it sounds like to describe it and learning so much about their inner world. And then the parent might say, do you recall, you know, walking home from school when that first hit your head? And so that parent is just asked,

who would you be without the thought? Because they can see their life prior to the thought and their life with the thought. One is suffering, one is not. They've already automatically turned it around, but the parent can say, you know, let's sit down with this. This sounds pretty serious to me. I can see you're hurt. And let's see if we can just find one person at school that cares about you. And maybe between the two of you can, and maybe not, but both valuable. And as a parent, if that child were young, I'd go to school with my child

and be the one that does care about him at school. both valuable. And as a parent, if that child were young, I'd go to school with my child and be the one that does care about him at school. But for slightly older children, it's actually being taught in schools now. Yeah. So for eight, nine-year-olds, there's a project underway, a pilot project in Denver, and they're finding this is with underprivileged children, some of whom eat their only meal a day at school. They're finding that the children are making such progress that teachers are starting to learn the work because they're seeing its effect on the kids. And then the administrators start to get interested personally for themselves. So it's really happening.

And it's accepted into the STEM program. Yeah, which is, I think that's brilliant. Yeah, it's really happening. And it's accepted into the... Into the STEM program. Yeah, which is, I think that's brilliant. Yeah, it's really exciting. You know, which is interesting because in settings like that, things don't get accepted into a curriculum unless there's some sort of measurable outcome. Well, this particular teacher, Rachel Pickett, she came to the school for the work, the nine-day school for the work.

She came two or three times as a young girl, actually. And it was just clear to her. She said, you know, I'm going to go to school and I'm going to get my teaching credentials. I want to take this. And she did. She went to college. She graduated. She's very bright. And she's teaching children the work. So she has been doing this for three years. And when these children hit high school, the way they excelled was so obvious. They could measurably see that it's really worth supporting and bringing into the school systems. And so it's still, you know, in a trial thing, but it's, you know, as before you can spread it through a whole country or world, you want to make sure that it really is not just a flash in the pan. I mean, the beauty of it is the simplicity of the process. This is not a big, heavy, complex,

you know, like dogma. It's not layered with things or ideologies. It's just a simple, straightforward process that you can almost look at it and say, well, yeah, it just kind of makes sense. What I love about it is there's no teacher involved. It's just me with myself or just anyone doing the work. It's just that person with themselves and the opportunity down with that child and, in fact, the answer is we can't identify somebody else who likes you at school, then you as a parent would then become that person. Because I would imagine there will be the occasional scenario where an entire school, an entire community turns against one person

and it does become very difficult to find the contrary evidence. Yes, and even if it's not true, if we believe it, it's just as isolating. It's just as cruel. When we believe that, you know, there could be no one at school that doesn't like us. We would never be convinced. That's how powerful the mind is. So you mentioned the newest book, which is, I guess, a joint effort.

Yeah. Well, I was a kind of midwife, let's say. Yeah, a mind at home with itself. And that's a mind no longer at war with itself. That's a mind that understands the story of the Buddha with his student, Subuddhi. And why don't you talk about that? Yeah, people had been asking me and us for years about a new Katie book. The last one, the last major one was A Thousand Names for Joy, which is based on my version of the Tao Te Ching. And so I was involved for five years with Homer translating the Iliad and the Odyssey. And when I finished that commitment, I started to think, what can be an interesting framework for a new Katie book? And I thought of the Diamond Sutra, which is an ancient Mahayana Buddhist text that was written

in about 350 of the Common Era. And it's a very important text, especially in Zen Buddhism. So it's very close to me in my own background, my own training. It's hardly known at all in the West. People I know who have tried to read it have given up several times in several translations because the translations tend to be very clotted and academic and difficult to penetrate. So I thought it would be a service to people to create a version that was accessible, easy to read, clear, and that would let the marvelous wisdom of this ancient Buddhist monk who wrote it shine through into contemporary English. So I did that and then brought it to Katie, and she was interested in the project. And so... Well, you read a chapter to me, and I became very interested. It's

incredibly beautiful and something that I can relate to completely. It was really, it was, it's really moving, so beautiful beautiful I even told Stephen he'd read a chapter and then he'd want me to to speak to my own experience and relationship to that chapter and which I would and he would write it down and um and then he'd do his beautiful thing moving the way I talk into a more understandable English. And I would tell him often, this book is so beautiful. For me to say, put one word into it would take away from it. And he kept assuring me that that wasn't the case. So we have this beautiful book, and I really hope it serves people.

One of the things, Jonathan, that struck me from the beginning was the similarities of the mind that created the Diamond Sutra and Katie's mind. There's a great emphasis on inquiry in the Diamond Sutra, and one of the terrific things that it does is it keeps pulling the rug out from under itself, which you don't usually find in religious texts, if you can call this religious. But even the clearest, highest truths that the character of the Buddha in this text enunciates are invalidated right away or later, so that you're left with nothing to grasp. You can grasp these truths and then you're grasping air. It's wonderful how the subtle, profound mind of the author educates you in not knowing, in not grasping. And it's very much like what the work does, looks at our assumptions, looks at these cherished truths that we create our lives around, and it creates so much suffering, and then

hoists us with our own petard, as it were. So there were a lot of similarities. And I was certain that in spite of what Katie said, that she had nothing to add, she had a great deal to add. There could be any more value. Well, what it does, you know, in my experience, what her commentary, her reactions do is make insights, which are sometimes hard to fathom in the insights of the Diamond Sutra. They seem sometimes abstract and ethereal and impossible to grasp, to penetrate. Her words make them flesh and blood, and when she talks about her early experiences after the experience on the floor of learning how to be human again, or from Katie's perspective, learning how to be human, period,

and the rapture at the beginning that seemed crazy to some people and was actually the most rational, sensible thing that you can imagine when you understand it, where she was coming from. So these stories make the insights of the Diamond Sutra very relatable to and very moving, actually. And I've talked to a number of people who went out, right out and bought the book and read it, one person three times and another twice within a few days. And the first person was in tears all three times when he read the book. And what he actually said was that he reads it one time and then he reads it another. It's like a different book. And his experience, I think reading it once for him opened his mind up.

And then reading it again, he's reading it a second time out of that open mind, and then the third time out of a more enlightened mind. So I really am hopeful that everyone would get as much from this book. And I can see that. My experience, it hit me on a couple of different levels. One, structurally, I thought it was really interesting that essentially the Diamond Sutra is a dialogue, and this book is written as a dialogue about a dialogue, which I thought was really interesting. Wow. Well, that's fascinating. I hadn't thought of that. Yeah. It added a really interesting layer for me.

Yeah. So it's like listening to Bach in a sense. There's this wonderful counterpoint that you hear on a number of levels. Yeah. Yeah. So there was that sort of on a really interesting structure that I felt like it drew me in more. And I completely agree with Steve and Katie. I feel like what you wrapped around, because the sutra itself is not long. You know, like most of these texts, the actual thing is not long.

And very often when you read commentary on these things, it's 100 times longer than the actual text. And it's one person saying this is what this means. And what I found really moving was that this was a dialogue saying, this is how I experience it. And similarly to how, Stephen, you were sharing within the Diamond Sutra, as soon as they say, this is so, they say, but no, it's not. And if you believe it, then you don't get it. Katie, you took the same approach. Because what was fascinating is it was a full circle experience because it kind of said, and like Stephen, you were saying, it's like it tied your experience to a deeper

lens that matched with the teachings of the Diamond Sutra. So it was really fascinating to see this continuity through such a long sweep of history. So it was really fascinating to see this continuity through such a long sweep of history. So lovely to hear. Yeah, I found it really powerful. We did our job. The Sutra is a text about generosity. And the central insight of the Diamond Sutra

is that the more deeply you understand that there's no real entity, no such entity as the self. In other understand that there's no real entity, no such entity as the self, in other words, in reality there's no separation between self and other, the more deeply you realize that, the more your life naturally becomes a life of generosity. And the most generous, one of the rug-pulling statements, for example, sounds like the most generous thing in the world, which is the Buddhist figure, the Bodhisattva, who postpones his or her

own enlightenment so that he or she can be there for the sake of all beings. I mean, what is more generous than that? And then the Buddha in the Diamond Sutra says, but in reality, when the Bodhisattva has saved all beings, he or she realizes that there are no beings to save and that there's no one to save them. Now that's a bit of a mind bend, isn't it? But it makes perfect sense when, for example, I look at you, and I'll use you as an example, Stephen. It's like you are who I believe you to be, and you are who you believe you to be. So I can never really know you.

But when I love everything I think about you, I can say I love you. But really, it's the you of my understanding. So it's that internal, that internal, without saying, it's closer than close. It's like you, whoever you are, you belong to me, you're mine because you are who I believe you to be. And we don't do that on purpose. We can look at someone and say, he's unfair, she's unkind, she doesn't care about me, why is she wearing that thing? And really tear someone down in our mind. But that's not that person, that's who we believe that person to be. So the next time we see that person, we talk to them as though that is the person, but it's all false self. And it's self-deception within me. If I'm not loving everything I think, I cannot love the world. And so we seem separate to the world until we're awake in the way that you just spoke to the Buddha's understanding.

There is no self. So when you love all the sentient beings in your mind, when you love all the thoughts that you're thinking and the people that populate your mind, you've saved them. All beings are saved. And you see the world as a place of complete clarity and beauty. And that's the world that people live in who have practiced inquiry for a while. And I love that because it's the only way the world can be saved.

And then that person becomes a kinder, more caring, more gifting human being. And it's a self, and any kindness is a self-filled life, we could say. It's just right mind, just appearing to live itself out. Yeah, some of this sounds like absolute crazy solipsism, you know, and navel-gazing, but it's truly the opposite because someone whose mind is clear lives a life of service and generosity, and I mean, it's so obvious. And completely unrecognizable. And that's what I love about it.

Once we understand our true nature, we have to see everyone and everything out of that. And so every time a person does self-inquiry, we become kinder, more caring, more connected, wiser human beings. We're actually not wiser. We're just connected to the wisdom that's already there because our head is not so full of meanness and confusion. Yeah, I feel like texts like this book and also the Diamond Sutra, a lot of Zen, Tibetan Buddhism, different sort of Eastern-based philosophies, that a lot of folks with a Western history and upbringing and orientation, we really struggle so much with the ideas in them because at the root of it is just identifying with the concept of capital S self. And it is so foreign because I think for so many people

that like the idea is like, how do we build that thing rather than how do we not even let go of it or dismantle it, but do the work to recognize that it doesn't actually even exist in the first place. And that idea is so jarring, I think, to so many that we don't even want to start to ask the questions. And yet we persist in suffering. I feel like this is actually a good place for us to come full circle. So as we sit here, I always end with one final question with everyone. And actually, I love both of your answers. And it's a simple question

with maybe a not so simple answer, which is in your experience, what does it mean to live a good life? To be present and recognize what is at hand to do and to do that without hesitation. And to, because it's just recognized as a good thing to do. Well, I would go with that one. In a slightly different way, for me, personally, living a good life is always recognizing the genuine. I keep falling in love with the genuine wherever it appears in ancient texts or in more modern literature or music or art or people.

There's something magnetically compelling about someone who is speaking from a deep inner truth. And I am always attracted to that. And that's how I live my life. Thank you both. Oh, thank you. You're welcome. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. If the stories and ideas in any way moved you, I would so appreciate if you

would take just a few extra seconds for two quick things. One, if it's touched you in some way, if there's some idea or moment in the story or in the conversation that you really feel like you would share with somebody else, that it would make a difference in somebody else's lives, take a moment and whatever app you're using, just share this episode with somebody who you think it'll make a difference for. Email it if that's the easiest thing, whatever is easiest for you. And then of course, if you're compelled,

subscribe so that you can stay a part of this continuing experience. My greatest hope with this podcast is not just to produce moments and share stories and ideas that impact one person listening, but to let it create a conversation, to let it serve as a catalyst for the elevation of all of us together collectively, because that's how we rise. When stories and ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change happens.

And I would love to invite you to participate on that level. Thank you so much, as always, for your intention, for your attention, for your heart. And I wish you only the best. I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

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