Good Life Project - Carla Hall | Say Yes!

Episode Date: November 12, 2020

Growing up in Nashville, Top Chef star, Carla Hall, was surrounded by soul food, especially dishes cooked by her beloved grandma. She loved eating it, but she had no interest in cooking it. In fact, she headed into the world of business, building a career in accounting when, in a moment of awakening, she took a hard left turn that took her through runway modeling in Europe, cooking and catering, and eventually onto Bravo’s Top Chef where he amazing, joyful energy and sense of possibility captures the hearts of viewers. That launched her into the world of not just food and restaurants, but media, books, with her latest cookbook, Carla Hall’s Soul Food: Everyday and Celebration, and TV, with many appearances all over and a run co-hosting The Chew, and now podcasting with her hit show, Say Yes! with Carla Hall : https://pod.link/1530065734Carla is also very active with a number of foundations that reflect her passion for causes close to her heart, Like Helen Keller International, and she’s the Culinary Ambassador for Sweet Home Cafe at the Smithsonian National Museum for African American History and Culture in Washington, D.C. where she brings attention to the history of the food that has inspired the café.You can find Carla Hall at:Website : https://www.carlahall.com/Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/carlaphall/-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So growing up in Nashville, top chef star Carla Hall was surrounded by soul food, especially dishes cooked by her beloved grandma. She loved eating it, but she had no real interest in cooking it. In fact, she headed into the world of business, building a career in accounting when a couple years in, in a moment of awakening, and we talk about this, she took this hard left turn that took her through runway modeling in Europe, cooking and catering in DC, and eventually years later onto Bravo's Top Chef, where her amazing and joyful energy and sense of possibility, it just kind of captured the hearts of viewers.

And that launched her into the world of not just food and restaurants, but media and books with her latest cookbook, Carla Hall, Soul Food, Every Day in Celebration, and TV with so many appearances all over and Arun co-hosting The Chew and now podcasting with her hit show, Say Yes with Carla Hall. Carla's also super active with a number of foundations that really reflect her passion for causes close to her heart, like Helen Keller International. And she's also the culinary ambassador for Sweet Home Cafe

at the Smithsonian National Museum for African American History and Culture in Washington, D.C., where she brings attention to the history of food that has inspired the cafe. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results

will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him.

We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk. You're in D.C. right now? I'm in D.C. Yeah. I grew up in Nashville. It's funny because I think if you're not from Nashville, most people probably think of it as the town that music built.

And it's all about music. But Nashville has this stunningly rich food history at the same time and I think when people think about sort of the food scene in Nashville now it's it's the foodie scene it's like exploded but it's not like that's a new part of Nashville agreed agreed my mother's always saying yes we're the it city. I'm like, yeah, mama. Um, but I also feel like growing up in Nashville and having these small restaurants and also the history of how restaurants were built in terms of getting recipes from black cooks. There's also that whole thing, you know, and then there's the, the barbecue and they're there, the biscuits there. I mean, there are so many different parts of Nashville. There's hot

chicken, hot fish. There are all of these different things that we grew up having that now the rest of the world is like, oh, Nashville has that? Yeah, we've always had that. Yeah. Nashville hot chicken, right? The legend of Thornton Prince III. Yes. Yes. The third. Right. But you just brought up something which was one of the things that you shared was uh black cooks and then sort of like what happened with their creations tell me more about that i'm curious when i was talking to my dad and my dad was a professional waiter and he talked about he worked at the Bellmead Cafe and it was in Bellmead

and it was a prestigious, when I say prestigious, it was a cafe where you'd go through the line and the waiters all dressed dapperly would take your, bring your food to your table. But there are all of these black cooks in the background. And my dad said in order to work there, a lot of the times they would have to give their recipes to the owners. And so if you weren't sharing your recipes, you weren't working there. And that happened in a lot of places. And when you think about recipes being called receipts, that's where it comes from. And they never got credit for it. You know, there may be a cookbook coming out of Bellmead cafeteria, but were those the recipes of the owners? No. restaurants. And the mythology is almost always around what is very often a bold figure in the front who's either the owner, the executive chef, sometimes the same person. And everyone else that makes that place hum usually is eliminated from the story, from the history, from the

mythology, from the forward-facing thing that we tell about all of this. I didn't know that about restaurants. Like, I'm sure it's not just Nashville, but like all across the South too, probably all across the country. Yeah. When you think about the, some of the older cookbooks, if you couldn't, if you could cook, but you couldn't write, who are you dictating those recipes to? You know, the lady of the house. And then she turns and writes the junior league cookbook, you know? So it's really interesting. And a lot of this information that I got, I mean, some of it from my dad, but also the Jemima coat, Tony Tipton Martin with her cookbook and reaching back to tell some of these stories and really revere some of these old cookbooks from Black cooks.

It's a really interesting story. And I think it's not just our story, but it's one of those stories that you want to uncover for all cultures, right? Just the curiosity of like, where do our recipes come from? Yeah. I mean, especially because recipes tend to be, it's not just food, you know, it is sort of like almost like a DNA level expression of history and culture, you know, and, and, and communion and all these things. So understanding, not just like, how does it make you feel when it goes in your mouth? You know, like, but actually where did this come from is, I think it's kind of fascinating,

but I think it's also important. Yes. Yes. But we all borrow from each other. If you say something and I like the way you said it, the next time I say something similar, I'm like, Oh, I remember how Jonathan mentioned this thing. And then I color my words that way. And then, and so on and so on and so on. And food is the same way. So it doesn't exclusively belong to any one group. But I think the, the trick is to how do you credit people along the way? Yeah. Austin Kleon, steal like an artist, right? We all do. But yeah. And how do you credit it along the way if you're three or four or five or 10 people removed and you actually don't know what the along the way it was? And I think that's where you're talking about. It's amazing to now

have people who are devoting themselves to tracing it back. So we can actually find that out and find out, oh wow, these are the people who helped me do this thing today, maybe 100 years ago or 50 years ago or three generations ago. You grew up in a household also. I know grandma, he called granny, legendary cook herself, the classic glorified grits isn't it used to call it yes but so you were around it in your own house too but but for you at an early age like this wasn't a thing for you it wasn't a source of fascination or interest until much later really i mean you know and people always assume that i wanted to cook from an early age. No, I wanted to eat. I wanted to be at the table of, you know, with this good food. I was out playing. I'm like, call me when the food

is ready and I will come a running. But I had no interest in how it came together. And it wasn't until I was in my twenties. I'm like, wait, I have no idea how this food comes together. You know, and how is it that I could be living every single Sunday with Sunday suppers at my grandmother's house after church and not know how it all comes together. But when you're ready, when you're ready to get the information, you turn to it and you're like, okay, I need the information now. Yeah. You can't push it. It happens when it happens. Because I know you also described yourself as a kid as being a nerd. Yeah, very much so.

And also being really shy for sort of like the earlier part of your life, which is kind of funny because I think from the outside looking in, a lot of people would look at you today and look at this big public career that you built over the last couple of decades now almost. And I think, well, how is that possible? I know. And you know, I'm borderline introvert extrovert. I was curious about that. Yeah. And even when I, I was so shy, I didn't really talk. I always had gregarious friends. So I was used to be around gregarious people who would speak up for me. You know, I would be in the background. They're

like, leave Carla alone. You know, come on, Carla. I would be that person. And my husband is an introvert. But if I had to, the thing was, I loved comedy and I loved laughter and I loved joking, but you would only see that side of me when I was around people whom I was comfortable with. And even now, if I, I remember going back to a homecoming at Howard university where, where I went to school and I went to a party with a friend and in walking through that door, I felt like a freshman. I am 50 years old, but I immediately felt like a freshman where I was self-conscious. I was just very much aware of everyone. I'm looking around. I wanted to go to the corner of the room, you know, and I'm like,

wait a minute. I am, am, am I that person? But I think we're always, we carry little bits of ourselves around when, and they will show up and you have to remind yourself or you have to live that moment truthfully, however you're feeling. But, you know, sometimes I do have to talk myself up into being okay in the room. Yeah, that's so interesting. It's so interesting the way we snap back also into our original social modes. I went to a 30th high school reunion a couple of years back. I'm on the introverted side of the spectrum for sure. And I was a quieter kid there.

And immediately I walked in and it was like they're the jocks like they're the greasers you're like they're the nerds and i'm this sort of like freaky kid who like is okay in each one of those different crowds but not entirely comfortable in any of them and i'm like dude what is wrong with you right you're like snap out of it. You are a successful man, you know, 30 years in your senior from this person, you know, who was like, you know, I'm, I'm a nerd. They're the jocks. And yeah, it's, it's all of that. But I think it also is a cue for us to realize the things that either that haven't healed within us or that we have buried, you know? So in that moment, sometimes maybe not in that particular moment when I was in the room,

but to actually feel what I'm feeling so I, it can come up and out and get out of that thing, get out of my body. Yeah. So agree with that. It's so funny you mentioned that also. I have a fairly long standing meditation practice and literally about 20 minutes into that experience, I found myself sort of saying, wait a minute, almost sort of like taking like a metal lens, zooming out a little bit and like looking down into it. I'm like, what is really happening here? What's the truth? And I'm

realizing, well, I'm actually seeing these people as their 19-year-old and 18-year-old selves. And then I was like, okay, so let me look with fresh eyes. And then I'm looking around the room. I'm like, oh, this is a completely different scenario here than the one that I transposed over it, which is utter fiction. It's sort of like a past illusion that I'm reliving today. I know you end up in Howard in business school, but before getting there, I know when you hit high school, you also become pretty drawn to acting. I'm curious, what was it about that that spoke to you? Well, I went to my first play on Broadway called Bubbling Brown Sugar, and my uncle happened to be in the chorus of this play.

And there was this song that one of the actors was singing, and it was Nobody. And I don't even remember the words. It was like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Nobody! You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Nobody! blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Nobody, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, nobody. And when I went home, I was fascinated by these characters. And I was, I was 11 years old and I was fascinated by these characters. And I went home for the next month and I became this character.

And I think it was stepping outside myself and putting on a character. And so that's what I kept doing. And my mother was like, Carla, I need you to clean up your room. Who wants to clean up their room? Nobody. And then a month later, she put me in theater and I loved it. And I remember them saying, dare to be you, dare to be different. And I could try on any personality I wanted to try on. And it wasn't a shy person. It could be whomever. And I love that.

Yeah. I mean, when you're doing that also, because I know there's an ethos that tends to be pretty front and center in your life, which is like, you're you in all parts of your life. You know, like in this conversation on TV and, you know, like at a dinner, whatever it is, it's just, you get what you get. You are who you are. Do you connect that in any way to those really early years where they're just kind of like saying,

like, that's the way to be? 100%. I think theater was, I remember just doing all of these exercises when I would go to theater camp and we were accepted. And I feel as on the other side in theater affirming that that was okay. And I walked through life like that. I'm like, I am showing up as myself. When I did the chew, and I'm not saying that I'm not insecure about doing a job that I don't know. But when I was, I was saying to myself, oh my gosh,

how is it that I got this job? And my friend said, your job is authenticity. I'm like, oh yeah, that's right. My job is to be who I am. They chose me. And so whenever I walk into a new situation, if I'm invited somewhere, I'm like, I'm invited to be myself. And I have to remind myself of that sometimes. I'm not going to be anyone else because anyone else would have been invited instead of me. So I have that tape going on in the back of my head. Yeah. So I know you're able to access that more readily now.

When you show up the first day at Howard B. School, are you just like, yeah, this is I'm Carla. I'm weird. I'm here. Let's do this. Or what happens? OK, so looking at your face, people can't see your face right now. My head drops back. My eyes roll up. I'm like, no. OK, I'm putting myself back in that moment now. Know that I am leaving from Nashville, Tennessee, which is about 25% black. I am coming to the chocolate city, Washington, DC, which at the time was 60, 75% black. And, um, I come up in overalls. I had, um, cowboy boots. I'm like, this is going to be so cool. I'm going to wear my overalls. I'm going to have cowboy boots. And I am at this school where people will say there

are a lot of quote unquote, bushy blacks. So they have on high heels, they're dressed really nicely. And they're like, what in the heck are you wearing? And I'm like, huh? And I felt so small. I was like, what? I wasn't ready. I remember just looking left. I'm like, look at all these Black people. I mean, that's what I was thinking. I'm like, oh, my God, look at all these Black people.

And people would just toot and honk. And in Nashville, when people tooted at you, you would just wave. But you didn't do that. You protected yourself. So you put up this wall in Washington, DC, because now I'm a young lady who is living away from home and they're predators. And this, this is what I've been told. And I was like, oh my gosh.

So all of this was going through my head when you said that. And so I ditched the overalls. I remember getting pumps that, I remember these, the first nude pair of pumps that I bought and I'm walking around campus, my feet are hurting and I'm like, they're all marked up from gravel. I'm like, is this what I'm supposed to be wearing? And there were scarves, like a silk scarf. I'm like, this is not me.

So that didn't last too long, but it did last a good part of my freshman year until I sort of settled into my thing. Yeah. It's amazing how much we can sort of like snap back into those modes. But you did settle into your thing. I know you ended up studying accounting also when you're there, but it sounds like you didn't study accounting because you're like, accounting is awesome. You studied it because you happened to have a teacher that you thought was pretty awesome earlier. And you're like, okay, cool. I'll roll with that. Yeah.

I wanted to go to Boston University and study theater. I wanted to go to a conservatory because I thought that was going to be my life. And when I didn't get accepted, I'm like, wait, what? I didn't get accepted? And they're like, you can stay here and do something else. I'm like, no, I was only going to Boston for theater. And so my sister was going to Howard and I just said, all right, I'll just go to Howard university. I didn't think about, oh, I have to get accepted. I'm like, of course I'm going to get accepted. You know, I had a, I had to apply and everything. I don't think I applied anywhere else. And luckily they accepted me. That would have been such a, such a bash to the ego. And I really liked my accounting teacher

in high school. And so I said, okay, I'll major in accounting. It was really like, what second, what's next? Okay. Accounting. I mean, I obviously had the aptitude for it, but I really, and it's, you know, it's so funny, Jonathan. I was telling this story in an interview years ago and a I didn't get accepted into Boston and to BU? She was like, no, you actually, the head, the dean of the school didn't think that people should major in theater as undergrads. And he was trying to discourage you because your grades were so good that he was trying to put you into another space. And I'm like, and I didn't get that at all. I didn't. I mean, I was a really good student. All I knew that I want to do theater. And, but when people saw my grades, they were like, you should not do theater. You should do something else. And, um, but I carried that for decades thinking of that rejection because of theater.

That's amazing. So wait, the dean of BU or the head of your high school? Of BU. So literally looked at your grades. He's like, how bizarre is that, that the head of a school for a thing that you love is looking at you and saying, this is not worthy of somebody with the the academic capacity that you have like making a judgment call right on that level right and not even thinking about the love and and this dean she was saying thought that you could do a master's in theater but you should be living

your life it's like when you go to get get a MBA, they're like work two years and then come and get your MBA because you need experience in the world before you come to like a graduate program. And I guess he thought for theater, you should not, he didn't think that people should go straight from high school into theater. So he made that judgment call and when she said that to me i was like wait what it sort of shifted and then i forget that that was the conversation that we just had this conversation two years ago and um i'm still i still have my version of the story in my head of rejection yeah and but also it's sort of like this really interesting role of a stranger deciding they know what's best for you. And it's not like they were rejecting

every other person who wanted to study theater undergrad. They were saying yes, but for some reason they're like, if you're you and you have the academic chops that you have, then I'm going to play the role of your parent effectively. But I also have the power to just completely reject you at the same time rather than just guide you, which is interesting is one word. effect isn't it yeah you know because there was an about face to me i i mean howard has an amazing fine arts program but i didn't go that route once i was rejected in theater i was like let me go like the complete opposite which was accounting yeah so you you end up studying accounting um and then going out into the world you do the CPA exam also, I guess, which is a really fun experience for what I'm told. A 19 and a half hour exam. Yes. Four parts. Right. Kind of brutal. And then you go out and you practice for a couple of years at, you know,

so you went out of school, you land the job that everybody wants. If you're going into accounting, it's one of the giant firms, you know, like prestige, power, decent salary, you land the job that everybody wants. If you're going into accounting, it's one of the giant firms, prestige, power, decent salary. You're going out and doing this thing. And then a couple of years in, it's just not working. I can't do it. I can't do it. I was so afraid of being 40 and hating my job.

I think that was the biggest fear. I was at an audit. I'm looking on at this accountant, fold a piece of paper and lining up the corners. And I was like, oh my God, that can't be me. I was really afraid of being unhappy. That was my biggest fear. Yeah. I can so relate to that. So I have a very past life as a lawyer and I took the bar, you know, like did the hard thing, went out, practiced for four or five years. My wake up call was was literally being hospitalized from my body melting down from the stress. It took me a year to sort of, you know, eventually say, OK, I'm out. But my curiosity is, you know, you were so you practice for what, two, three years, something like that.

Two years. And I know that stress. I know that stress of not sleeping, of obsessing over the job, of coming home. As soon as you said the stress, I'm like, oh, luckily I left before five years because that may have been me. Yeah. And I think it's something that you just incorporate into it, especially when you're working for, I ended up eventually working for a really large law firm and you're working for like one of the giants at the time in accounting. There's an assumption that your life will be theirs, especially in the early days. It's just the way it is. And as a kid coming out of college and like making good money, you're like, all right, whatever, I'll deal with this for a while. I can hack it. But then the lived experience, you're like, oh, wow, this is kind of brutalizing. And I think for both you and I, it may have been different.

If you're somebody who had a passion, who was just innately drawn to accounting or law, you're probably like, all right, I can offset what I'm feeling with this love of this thing that I'm doing. But if you're wired like us, it's like, no, every day that you're doing something that you know you don't want to be doing, it's just, you know, like it gets worse and worse. Right. Right. 100%. So you make the logical next move when you leave there. Yeah. Very logical. Just like everybody's next move, right? And you decide to be a runway model in Europe.

You know, there were some girls going to Paris. I'm like, you know what? Hold on, wait up for me. I'm going to quit my job and I'm going to come with you. And actually, I didn't even go to Paris with these girls. It was just the idea was planted by these girls that I didn't know that well. And I quit my job two weeks after I saw the accountant folding the paper.

And I just said, yeah, I'm not, I can't do this. And there happened to be a woman there who was on a tour of duty from France. And I took French for, I mean, a couple of weeks, learned 10 words. And that was, I was armed with 10 words of French when I went to Paris. But I had one telephone number who was the friend of a friend of a friend of someone who knew my mother. And I didn't even know this girl. And I sort of bummed around the city for a week before I called her. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you.

From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton find your push find your power peloton visit peloton at one peloton.ca mayday mayday we've been compromised the pilot's a hitman i knew you were gonna be fun on january 24th tell me how to fly this thing mark walberg you know what's

the difference between me and you you're gonna die don't shoot him we need him y'all need a pilot flight risk the apple watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. When you get there, I mean, there's another curiosity in my, which is like, when you walk out of this job, were you aware of the fact that you were also walking out of the profession that you had studied, trained for, been licensed for? Or were you just like, you know what? That gig wasn't right for me.

Let me take a breather so I can get my head straight and figure out my next move. Or were you just like, no, like I'm clear I'm done. I knew I was done. I knew that that was the thing that I didn't want to do. And what I wanted to do eventually, I didn't know. I remember turning to my mom and saying, when I get that CPA certificate, that will hang up in your house. I have done everything for you. And now from this point forward, it really has to be about me and my happiness. But I knew I was done with accounting. I knew once I walked out that door, I couldn't come back. And interestingly enough,

people were saying to me, I can't believe you're leaving a good job. They didn't say, I can't believe that you weren't happy. They went to the practical side of how is it that you're leaving a good job? I feel like I'm physically dying, not to be dramatic, but I really thought that my essence was dying. Yeah. I can absolutely relate to that. People, I think, ask, how can you work so hard, give up so much, invest so much, and then leave it all behind? Especially when so many other people see themselves really yearning to be in that same position that you're saying no to, rather than like the flip side question is, which I kept defaulting to it. And it sounds like you kind of did also, how can I justify giving up the next 40, 50 working years of my life based on what's happened

in the last like three, four or five? When you reframe the question that way, the answers are just profoundly different. 100%. Fast forwarding to my husband, I've spoken to so many people and tried to counsel them to quit their jobs. It sounds really terrible. Because I'm like, do you love this? What is it that you, do you imagine yourself here when you imagine yourself 10 years from now and you're doing this job, does it make you happy or does it make you want to run? Does it make you feel kind of low and down? And I said, if it makes you feel low and down, what else would you like to be doing? That's where you should spend your time sort of figuring out. And for three years, I talked to my husband.

I mean, if it wasn't for him, I wouldn't have had the support and flexibility to do a job in New York that was away from our home. But I'm like, OK, it's your turn. And I was just like, what do you want to do? What do you want to do? Like a job. Like, what do you want to do? And it took three years for him to finally quit his job as an attorney. He worked for the FDA and then he decided yoga was his thing and he's so happy.

And that was such a win. I mean, we have a totally different life to be with someone who loves what they're doing and they're not relying on your happiness about what you're doing. Everybody's living their own joy. It is so freeing and wonderful. Yeah. It's sort of the bedrock of everything, right? Instead of everything just sort of like codependence and codependence layered on top of each other.

It's sort of like we're doing our own thing, and we're independently happy, and that's how we end up being mutually happy together. Yes. But that doesn't always, that wisdom doesn't always drop all that easily or readily. I'm also curious about something else. So we're about the same age, I think. And so when I leave the law, you're like, I'm a white guy leaving this professional life. There's no script running in my head that says,

consider your whiteness in making this decision. When you're a young black woman who's leaving this field of accounting, I'm wondering whether there's any script in your head that says to consider that as part of the equation at all. Interestingly enough, I felt black at that accounting firm. I mean, out of 50 people, I was the black girl. And then came another person like everybody would come up to me. Oh, you must be Carla. I'm like, oh, and out of like 100 people and out of 100 white people, who are you?

I mean, I remember thinking that, I mean, I may, I may have said it once or twice, but I felt like an other. So, I mean, I went from being at Howard. So I went from Nashville to being at Howard. Now I'm in Tampa, Florida. Um, there weren't a lot of me around and I, I befriended a lot of other professional blacks, but I didn't work with them. So I always felt, I mean, I have to say, I mean, granted, that was a chip on my shoulder, but I felt like an other. So when I was leaving and I'm going to Paris, I mean, I also was thinking Josephine who went to Paris. And so I could be myself there and be accepted as an artist. So I don't know if I actually thought about my race when I left. I didn't lead with that. It may have been in the back of my head. Also, when I went there, there was a huge community of black models. So the, the socialization

happened on Sundays, which was this woman who was just this big black woman, dark skin from Memphis, Tennessee. Her name was Elaine. She did hair and she had these Sunday suppers that reminded me of my granny's Sunday supper. So that was also a connection for me and a sense of comfort and groundedness. So if I did feel black in Paris, it was everything that lifted me up and buoyed me. It sounds like those Sunday dinners also were not just sort of like that sense of normalization and like you said like buoying but also a reconnection with food a reconnection with with not just like you know the process of eating but what happens around food you know like what happens with the the feeling that get, the community and communion that forms around it, which eventually in a relatively short period of time turned into something bigger and then brought you back to D.C.

Where you're like, let me see where this interest is going to take me. Yes. And in hindsight, when I think of every life changing thing that happened to me, it was around food and it was only being away from it and looking back. Um, so it was in Paris. It was, um, and then when I came back, I started a lunch delivery service as a fluke. It was here. It started, I mean, even with Top Chef, when that's when I sort of fell in love again with my culture. People saw me as the person who did comfort food. And it was actually the viewers who helped me see that that's what I was gravitating toward. It was all the food from my grandmother's Sunday suppers. And that was the grounding point. That was my, eventually, comfort foods.

But then my last cookbook, soul food, a lot of the things that I was running away from, I found comfort in the food that I was having at my grandmother's table. Yeah. Because, I mean, you mentioned Top Chef. You know, so you end up there on season five. But there's a really big window between the time that you come back to DC and you start doing the lunch service, which kind of happens almost as a fluke, but then you're like all in and

you're building this. And then there's what, 12, 13, 14 years of catering, restaurants, culinary school. In between that time and the time where you land on Top Chef, well over a decade later, where you're developing your chops, you're learning the industry, you're learning everything. But it also sounds like during that whole season, it's interesting to hear you say Top Chef was the thing that brought you back to that comfort food. Whereas the whole time in between, you describe yourself as running from it. Like, what's the why? So when I was doing the lunch delivery service, I was doing comfort food. I

would do soups and sandwiches and breads and biscuits. And then I go to where I was getting and in doing that, I was self-taught. So I was teaching myself through cookbooks and I had the practical experience of actually cooking, but I didn't have theory. Then I go to culinary school, a French culinary school, Academy de Cuisine in Maryland. That's when I got the theory on top of my practical experience. And that's when I learned French food and all of the technical way of doing things. And I was like, oh, this is what I want to do. And I think I turned away from my culture that I took for granted to doing fancy food, to wanting to be accepted or learned.

And I didn't want to be known as a black cook because I thought that that meant soul food that meant the Sunday suppers that I didn't necessarily I appreciated eating them but I didn't want to be pigeonholed as a black cook and doing that food and so I turned away from it. And it was only back to, I mean, and when you said like Top Chef, I was 42 when I went on Top Chef. So I was 30 when I went to culinary school. I was 25 when I started a lunch delivery service. So it was like 18 years or so that I'd been cooking and trying to figure out who I was through food. So it really wasn't until I started my restaurant and where I said, I love being black and I love this food. And what turned my head or my perception or my thoughts around that or my self-love, whatever you want to call it, was when I was approached about being the ambassador of Sweet Home Cafe at the African American Museum in Washington, D.C. And it was the work that Jessica Harris had done.

And she was like, this is the influence of Black cooks all over the country. And I was like, whoa. And it was as if somebody was speaking to me for the first time, like why we should be proud of our food and what we had contributed. And you don't get that in culinary school. I get what the French had contributed, but not what Black people had contributed. And as a Black cook, that meant so much to me. And I was like, well, I have a lot of catching up to do, a lot of studying to do, a lot of reading. And so that was the turning point there too. Yeah. So it's sort of like the confluence of you putting in the years then you landing on top chef then this other experience all coming together kind of overlapping a bit towards like the end there and also it sounds like that to a certain extent it's funny

from the outside looking in at top chef you know if you look back at the season it seems like the show is incredibly fun and incredibly stressful at the same time actually where do we all go when we're starting to lose our minds a little bit? What's the comfort thing? Can we go back to the food that we know very often? And it also seems like when you turned to that in a public way, it was celebrated and people said more. And so you reach this sort of like a reunion with this food that was a part of your past and also just has this really, really rich history. And then instead of being afraid of being pigeonholed into being this one person, you're like, no, this is amazing. This is not a pigeonhole. It's not a constraint.

It's a rich mind to vein and then to build around and then to offer out. Part of, I know sort of like your lens on food is cooking is love. And it sounds like, you know, that is the central ethos underneath all of this too. It sounds so beautiful when you say it so poetically. Can I have this on tape? I'm going to listen to it at night. Yeah. I mean, you know, after Top Chef, it launches you into the public side in a massive way, both as a chef and also as a personality. People kind of fall in love with you because you're an awesome human being and it shows

really well on screen. And that leads to you being more and more and more and more public, but also having a platform to actually say, this is what I believe and this is what I want to share with the world. Being this sort of like on the border of introvert, extrovert, as you become more and more and more public

and people want more from you and also expect a certain thing and don't expect a certain thing from you, as you sort of like live in a brighter and brighter light, I'm curious how that lands with you, because you're still doing it. This is a big, you are absolutely in the media front and center.

And I'm wondering just on a personal level, how that is with you, how you feel with that? You know, it's really important for the platform to mean something. Like, what do I do with this platform? And what nonprofits do I work with? What projects do I say yes to? And I have a checklist. And so what keeps me grounded and wanting to do this and be in the public eye is to have passion about the reason that I'm doing it. So on the two, it was I heard from so many people. Oh, my gosh, it's so great to see a black woman, you know, on daytime in food talking about our food. And so I have to show up authentically my quirky self

eating this food, knowing that if I am not there, who is going to be talking about my experience that I'm sharing with so many people. So that gets me through. when I am still in the public eye, even this summer in the, with the pandemic, you know, and I started this recess, I'm like, there has to be so many people out there who are stressed and wondering which way to turn and, and, and they don't pivot as easily. And, and somebody who pivots easily, I was stressed. So I'm like, how do we bring the joy when everything is telling us we should not be joyful? And so part of it is my stubbornness, which I think protects me,

but I go into that uncomfortable feelings. Like I've got to get out of this thing. I've got to get out of this space and there has to be other people like me. And I'm gonna go back just really quickly, like to top chef, I don't drink. And so when somebody said, Oh, do you want to make a cocktail? I'm like, it will have to be a mocktail because I'm always thinking, however, I feel whatever I'm doing, there is somebody else who is thinking like me and I am talking to those people.

And that gives me comfort and makes me feel less awkward. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But I guess also it takes a little time to get there sometimes. And in the food industry, my wife was in the restaurant industry in New York for a decade. So we know the industry fairly well. It is a brutal, brutally hard industry. The food, every part of it, catering, restaurant, whatever it may be, it's just a really, really, really tough. You get knocked around a lot. You work insane hours. Sometimes things work really, really well. Sometimes they absolutely implode and then they implode into the implosion and then they fall apart after that. And I feel like there's an interesting

analogy to media because sometimes that happens also, but when it happens and you have this public platform, the blessing is that you have the ability to do incredible things with it. And the razor's edge is also that when things don't work, you can't just process it internally. Well, you can, but people are going to have all sorts of expectations about how that should be processed, how it should make you feel. So you're out there humming along, doing Phenomenal Media. You're co-hosting The Chew. You're doing these specials. And then one of the things that you want to do is actually own a restaurant

because it's kind of like one of the few things in the space that you hadn't done yet on that level. Yes. So Brooklyn, what was it, 2015, 2016? Yeah, 2016 to 2017, one year. It took us longer to plan the restaurant and get it built than it actually survived. And I didn't want, I didn't want a restaurant. I was just browbeaten for three years, uh, with my partners, like, you know, let's do a restaurant. Let's do it. I'm like, why would I want to do a restaurant?

I had all the right reasons for not wanting to do a restaurant. And, um, so I said, yes. And, um, and it was a great experience. And actually, it turned out that I loved it. I loved the process of learning what food I wanted to serve, the feeling of the restaurant, the people that I wanted there. All of that was really great. It's just that, you know, it's incredibly hard in terms of money. If anything goes wrong, you know, we had an electrical fire and we were shut down for a month. So when this pandemic happened and it is ongoing, I'm like a month took our business out. So what do you think six months is going to do to a small business? I

just, I feel for them so much and I get it. I, I, and you know, we never were the same and that was only a month. And when people are like, oh, these businesses are going to come back. No, no. The, the, I mean, it's a 95% chance that they won't unless they have the support and unless they have funds that are going to help them. And it is so hard. Like, what are your employees do? How do you, you know, looking at your employees and you want to help them. And it is so hard. Like, what do your employees do? How do you, you know, looking at your employees and you want to keep them on and

you don't have the business to keep them on, you know, I'm just living through all of that, you know, and this pandemic brought back all of those feelings of when everybody's looking at you and wanting this paycheck. So it's incredibly hard. Interestingly enough, after it was all over and I actually wrote this speech very publicly about, you know, when you crash and burn publicly, you know, with the restaurant because nobody talks about it, you know, and I felt like, again, here I was in the public eye. And I remember giving that speech and, you know, and tears would flare up. But I was like, I'm going to push through because I want you all to know the real deal. The one thing that keeps me in the public eye authentically is to let people truly know what I am going through.

I don't try to whitewash it. I don't try to make it seem better than it is like, oh yeah, it's great. And I'm great. No, I'm struggling. And it's, it's going to help somebody. Cause I'm talking to that person who's been through the same thing that I'm going through. Yeah. I mean, I think it also sets, it allows people to set some of their own more realistic expectations. So it's not that, you know, wow, everyone's succeeding, but me, what's wrong with me? It's like, no, you know what? I said yes to a hard thing where just a

part of the process is the majority of people fail, which is the restaurant industry. Is it like 80, 90% of restaurants fail in five years, even in the best of times? I took that as when you went and did that in a very public way, way i'm like that was really powerful because you're you're essentially giving permission to people who have this love who like there's something in them that says i want to do this i want to try it and but they're terrified of what happens if i don't succeed to say well you may not and i'm on tv i'm telling you i'm on tv i I'm telling you, I'm on TV. I have this platform. I'm still failing, you guys. So think about it. So there's no safety net.

There is no easy route for anybody. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was really, really powerful. And I thought it was also really powerful to see that, what did you do when you woke up the next morning? You showed up and you went to work. It's sort of like, what's next?

Rather than, okay, everything is over. It's sort of like, okay, process it. There's grief. There's for sure loss, but life goes on. And I think that's, it seems like this central thing about you. It's like you wake up the next day and you're like, it's not a delusional thing where you're like, oh, that never happened. You're like, no, that was real. That sucked. But today's today. What do I do now? Yep. Yep. I mean, one foot in front of the other. The thing is that I know, and the thing that I live by is every single lesson that I have had is going to take me to the next thing. And as much as I don't want to feel, I mean, the chew is incredibly hard for me in learning how to host, but I'm like, okay, I'm going to

stand here and I'm going to embrace it. And the one thing that Top Chef taught me was I can be comfortable with the uncomfortable just because I'm uncomfortable. And it doesn't mean that I can't feel it and keep going on. I know that I'm uncomfortable. I'm going to feel it. I'm going to take the next step. I may be crying. I may be dragging through, but I know that I'm going to be in a better place when I get to that next step than where I am now. Yeah. Along the way, you know, so you, you end up basically recovering. You're still doing media the whole time. You're still out there processing, processing internally. And also in a public way. And also, I mean, I think it's a really interesting thing also, because I think sometimes somebody

will look at somebody in the media and say, the only way that you actually get to do the things that you do and to be the person you are and have the spotlight and the platform is to be perpetually successful rather than to be perpetually real. And so I think it sends a really interesting, different message, which goes back to like 12 years old, right? That thing that you were told in theater class and like circling back and fundamentally being the thing that fuels you. That's absolutely right. Dare to be you, dare to be different.

But most of all, dare to be you. Yeah. I also, from what I understand on, so Gretchen Rubin is a friend of mine, and I know you're familiar with her four tendencies, how we meet our own and others' expectations. And I do believe you're a rebel according to- Oh, 100%. Right. Which kind of goes along with everything we're talking about.

It's sort of like, hey, you got an expectation from me? No. Right, right, right. I love talking to Gretchen and my husband was a big fan. And when I was interviewing her and she's like,

I'm going to tell you how the story ends. I'm like, you get me. So I, yes, correct. Yes. I don't know if there was a question there, but yes, I love her so much. It's just like, correct. Yes. I don't know if there was a question there, but yes. Yeah. It's just like, it goes along with everything you're talking about.

Cause it's kind of like that you live in a world where expectations, other people's expectations, but also your own expectations kind of don't matter. In fact, the more solid they are, the more you don't want nothing to do with them, which is a fascinating way to live, which seems to have brought you incredible opportunity that you have just completely embraced. But at the same time, rebels, and I know there's some conversations with Gretchen over the years and when she was working on a lot of this stuff, they can also be some of the toughest people to be around. And also, in terms of building things with the toughest people to be around. And also, you know, in terms of building things with the toughest people to collaborate with and to work with. And what's fascinating is from the

outside looking in, that doesn't seem like your MO. I'm a great collaborator. I think I am incredibly tough. I have to say, I know I'm tough on my team, but rather than looking at my team like a pyramid or a triangle, I look at us as a box and I expect us all to move up together. So I really push my team. I will never ask anybody to do something that I'm not willing to do myself. So I think I have an incredible work ethic. I think that just comes from our age. I mean, I'm 56.

So back in the day, I mean, you know, your parents were from the Depression. So, you know, yeah, just incredible work ethic. And so I'm pretty tough, I would say. And nobody is here to defend them. So I'm channeling my assistant who's like, yes, she's incredibly tough, but I'm also incredibly generous when I'm working with people. I'm generous with giving them credit for their input and honoring them and wanting them to be acknowledged for that as well. Yeah. I mean, it seems like while you say you may be tough on those around you,

it sounds like you're also tough on their behalf. Yes. 100%. Yes. Yeah. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him.

Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming,

or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. So you and I are also, you have had a long career at this point in the media,

largely in front of camera. And more recently, you jump into this world of podcasting with your own podcast, Say Yes, which is really, it's the embodiment of your philosophy, which we've kind of like, we've talked about, but we haven't really named it. You literally like, you have this very discreet philosophy. I do. And my mantra is say yes, adventure follows, then growth. And sometimes we stop our growth by saying no.

And this whole thing that I, this mantra is about, I don't know, about seven years old or so. Somebody had asked me, they were doing a book on six words of advice. And I really wanted something that meant something to me. And I'm like, how do I live my life? How do I live my life? What would I say to a young person? And those were the six words. Say yes, adventure follows, then growth.

Yeah, I love that you didn't say success follows. Oh, no. Because that's not what it's about. You know, I mean, yes, right? It could be just saying and showing up and being present at that time. I mean, it's all relative. And I think that all different kinds of success should be validated and honored and not what the quote unquote successful people whom we think are successful. Because then when we find out when we quote unquote successful people whom we think are successful. Because then when we find it, when we have these successful people and then behind the curtain, we're like, oh, oh, that really? That's you? So I never want to be that person.

I never want to be the person who takes off their makeup and like, oh, that's what you look like. Yeah. And I mean, in life, I think so often when we have the chance to actually zoom the lens out and say, what does it really mean to live a good life? What are the elements of that? What does success look like when we get to define that in our own terms? And not just, I feel like success is always used in the context of business of work you know like you're a successful person when you achieve this business metric or this income metric rather than like i actually i don't reject the word success but i feel like we define it in this one really narrow context we define it almost entirely in the context of power, money, and prestige. And I feel like they're not living up to why they are here. You know, like, why are you actually here on this earth plane? And what are you here

to do? And, and, and through a lot of introspection and probably in spirituality, I want to do the thing that I am here and meant to do. And have you ever, have you ever had a moment when you're so present that everything slows down and you are just like living in that moment? Yeah, many times. But you know, it's funny that the thing that immediately comes to mind is something that nobody else around would notice. Nobody else would feel this. It wasn't this big, profound, earth-shaking thing that changed the direction of my life. and just watching her, not in a creepy way, but just being fully present and just being like, oh my God, this is grace.

Yeah. Yeah. The first time that I felt that was, it was Christmas Eve, midnight mass, and I was singing a song and I felt that my voice was just resonating throughout my entire body. I think I was, I don't know, maybe I was nine or ten, but I just felt like, oh my gosh, I felt like there were angels in my body. And another time, and there were many times, but another time that I felt that almost like the 90 mile per hour baseball slowing down, coming at you was when I was hosting the James Beard Awards and I was running on stage and giving all these chefs a high five. And I said, Oh, I'm about to fall.

And I remember thinking, I said, how do I want to fall? And I, and all of these thoughts were coming to me, engage the core, make it big. All of those thoughts. So as I, I mean, when you watch the video, I am like flat out, like flying through the sky. Like I take flight, like my feet are off the ground, both of them. And I decide to roll and windmill my feet and the gentlemen are all trying to help me, but I'm like rolling away from them. And I become probably like Jerry Lewis because I love physical comedy. And then I got up and I said, that means the show's going to be amazing. And everybody's looking at me like, oh my God, like what just happened? And I ran down stage and I said,

you all know that shit was funny. And then I laughed. I was able to laugh at it because it was so awesome. But people were like, oh, my God, I had the best time. I mean, just being completely present in that moment made it so great for me. Yeah, I think that's what it really comes down to so often, right? Is Ram Dass, be here now. Yeah. It's sort of like everything that we need to know, we have known for generations and generations and generations, and yet we just keep running from it. But in those moments, like you just described, it's not even like you intentionally drop

into it, but you just kind of like for a heartbeat, you become aware that you're in it. And then you own it. It's just like, that's it, right? That's it. It's just like, that's it, right? That's it. This feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. We're hanging out here in this container of good life projects. So if I offer up this phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To do what your heart wants to do but to allow yourself to ask the question and listen for the

answer that's the good life yeah it's worked for me up to this point thank you thank you so much for listening and thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help Thank you. really cool online assessment that will help you discover the source code for the work that you're here to do. You can find it at sparkotype.com. That's S-P-A-R-K-E-T-Y-P-E.com. Or just click the link in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, be sure to click on the subscribe button in your listening app so you never miss an episode. And then share, share the love. If there's something that you've heard in this episode that you would love to turn into a conversation, share it with people and have that conversation. Because when ideas become

conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold. See you next time. Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th.

Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk.