Good Life Project - Chris “Daze” Ellis: From Street Artist to Museum Collections

Episode Date: July 25, 2016

Today’s guest, Chris Daze Ellis, is a born-and-bred New York artist with a fascinating origin story. Although he began his prolific painting career in the gritty New York subways of the mid-70s, Daze is one of the few artists from that initial group to have successfully transitioned from the underground to the studio, then the galleries and […] The post Chris “Daze” Ellis: From Street Artist to Museum Collections appeared first on Good LifeProject.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKEDVisit Our Sponsor Page For a Complete List of Vanity URLs & Discount Codes. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What you do, it has a life of its own. I mean, even to this day, I make paintings in my studio, I'll exhibit it. But at a certain point, if you sell that painting, it has a life of its own. So a few weeks back, I found myself wandering through the halls of a museum in New York City. It's actually the Museum of the City of New York. And I went into this gallery and it was featuring a guy named Chris Ellis, also known as Days. Days was the name that he gave himself back in the 70s when he was actually out there, like many of the crews, painting graffiti on subways. And that kind of followed him. And he produces incredible, incredible work.

And he's also one of the few breakout stories from sort of like that original crew of graffiti artists and street artists, people who rode on trains, who made the transition to becoming a studio artist and an incredible painter. And he not only produces his own work now, he also travels the world and he works with students, kids in different cities, creating public art, doing murals with them.

So I went home promptly after seeing his show and kind of really loving his story and his work and reached out to him. And it turns out he still lives in New York City and asked him if he would come and hang out with me and have a conversation about those early days from painting trains to hanging in museums. And that's the conversation that I'm about to share with you now. I'm Jonathan Fields. This is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous

generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot shoot if we need them. Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. I stumbled upon your work just out of the blue. It was about a couple weeks ago. And I was just mesmerized by it.

Absolutely mesmerized. Unexpected delight. And it was even more unexpected delight to kind of jump back home, pull up your website, see you're still hanging out in New York City. Yeah. And then reach out to you and ask for a conversation. You're like, yeah, let's do it. Okay.

I'd love to kind of take a step back in time. So right now, like you're pretty established. You've been in galleries around the world. You travel a lot and do a lot of really cool stuff, which I actually want to talk about. But my sense is you probably have a pretty awesome story from the background. You grew up in New York City in the 70s. Yes. Which is a profoundly different place then than it was now. Take me just kind of like back into where you grew up, what the neighborhood was like around then.

Well, I grew up in Crown Heights, Brooklyn. I lived on Eastern Parkway. I come from a family of five, five kids. So New York was a completely different place than, you know, I would, as a little kid, I remember kind of listening to the radio. You know, I just had a radio, a little transistor radio, listening to the popular music of that era, which would have been anything from Motown to the Beatles. So I developed kind of an eclectic music sense pretty early on. But also, I remember, you know, vividly the Vietnam War and how that was being cast on the news every single

night. And I didn't completely understand it, but I knew that it was something horrible going on on the other side of the world. And on this side of the world, I remember things like Kent State, student revolts, the Black Panthers, the Black Panther Party movement, which was very alive in Brooklyn. And, you know, it was kind of all those things were kind of shaping my viewpoint of the world really early on. At the same time, New York was kind of in this state of economic disaster. Right. I mean, the 70s in New York City was, people look at New York now as something almost bulletproof. But back then, it was basically bankrupt.

It was very much bankrupt. The Lindsay administration, A-beam, it was pretty bad. So, I witnessed crime and death pretty early on, you know, as a kid. And, you know, I guess I kind of started to seek a little bit of an escape from that in things like popular culture, like comic books, for example, is a great example. You know, I was really into comic books as a kid and I think that sparked my interest into drawing, you know, because I learned about anatomy, you know, firsthand from comic books and kind of copying them and later on developing my own. Yeah.

Which were your favorite comics? I think a turning point, a pivotal turning point for me was Discovery Mad Magazine. Yeah, of course. And the relative, I knew a little bit about it, but I had a cousin that got me a subscription and I really loved it. I really anticipated getting Mad Magazine every month in the mail. Yeah. So that was a big deal, a huge influence on me, as well as kind of Marvel Comics and DC Comics and things of that era. But Mad Magazine was a big deal yeah and mad well i mean

it wasn't just the drawing but mad was you know there was a political viewpoint there was in a very subtle way that a political commentary yeah you know that really spoke about the times whether it was the 60s 70s and still to this day but i also like the satirical point of view of the movies that they covered. It was great. Yeah. So, were you brought up in a household where there was art in the house or was that really sort of like your introduction to starting to play with that side of who you were? No, we really didn't have art hanging in the house. I think my mom had this like Renoir copy that I didn't have any idea who it was.

And she told us all it was her. That's great. So that was about it, you know, as far as art in the house. But I had comic books, so that would take me to another place. And I was grateful for that. So from there, where do you start to get the bug to make this a bigger part of what you're doing? Well, you know, as I got older, I became kind of a class artist, which was a great, it was a cool thing, you know,

but drawing was still kind of a little bit of a sideline, but I knew I wanted to do it more. So right about right before high school, started thinking about what I was going to do with my life a little bit and what direction I was going to take. And I looked at all these schools, you know, that were available. There was automotive high school. You know, there were these different high schools around and none of them really interested me at all. But then I heard about like the High School of Art and Design in Manhattan.

And I thought, wow, I would really love to go there. So, you know, back then you, you, I don't know how it is now, but back then you had to submit a portfolio. Really, it was just kind of a drawing. Then it was like a sketch pad with different examples. And my mom helped me to prepare for that. And I submitted it and I got in. Yeah. Did your mom have any sort of a lens on, you know, like you should do something more professional or like the arts are good? I think like a lot of parents, you know, they don't really understand how you're going to make a living from that.

Yeah. And I mean, to this day, that's a struggle for so many people. Yeah. So, I wasn't really the best student, you know, even though I was, I really loved reading. I wasn't the best student for whatever reason. And, but I really liked art and I wanted to pursue that. You know, at the same time, I was kind of discovering the subways and that whole culture as an outsider. Yeah. Completely as an observer.

So, I mean, take me deeper into that because especially like it's funny you know and i think i shared with you when i reached out to you i had grown up just outside of the city and being a similar age and i remember coming in and seeing you know like every subway car was just at at one point it felt like it was just wall to wall graffiti but i knew nothing of the culture and like, you know, the different boroughs and the different, the rivalries that like, take me a little bit into what was actually going on and the culture around this. Well, about 1973, 1974, I started noticing it, you know, first on a neighborhood level and then on the subways because I would take the subway every day back and forth

from school. But I didn't really, because gang culture was still so prevalent in New York, I thought somehow it was associated with that because gangs did mark off their territory with graffiti. So I kind of, you know, in the beginning, I kind of thought it had something to do with that. But there was a point when I realized I started to see, you know, more elaborate kind of representations of names. And I realized that it had to be more than that. That wasn't like a group thing, that it was singular. And there was a particular piece that I saw by an

artist named Blade. And it was kind of laid up in the station. And it was a piece that had his name written. And he had these kind of dancing girls kind of going across the car. And because it was laid parked in the station, you know, I could, you know, and not in motion, I could just sort of look at it and kind of make out what it said and what it was. And that was a real kind of turning point for me because from then on, I became more and more intrigued. And I think he did that particular piece about 1975. So by 1976, I got into the High School of Art and Design and then I started meeting people who were actually painting trains.

And then I kind of just became immersed in that culture. How do you meet the people who are painting trains? Because it's not the type of thing that you just, I mean. Well, the school had a huge amount of people that were writers. So, they were in my class, my lunch period, you know, people that wrote. People were sketching their names out in books. It was real easy. You couldn't not meet somebody that did that.

Yeah. And just for those listening, when we're talking about writing, we're not talking about, you know, I'm writing a novel. That writing is what you called, you know, like writing your name in graffiti back then. I guess you still do, right? Yeah. Writers. Right. Take me more into the culture because it also seems like it got pretty fragmented.

You know, just as you said, this was a time in New York City where there were some major gangs and major gang rivalries. Yeah. So this was a time in New York where there was a lot of violence on the streets. There were a lot of gangs who were driven by territory and by, you know, whatever business they were running to drive it. But from what, and tell me if I'm wrong, because, you know, this is something I know on such a superficial level, but it seems like there were also, i don't know if you'd call them gangs but there were sort of like groups where you know you kind of you owned an area or you were constantly challenging and trying to one-up the next person with what you were doing and where you were going well yes and no i mean when you talk about owning an area that's not really true because a lot of it

was not the focus the focus wasn't really on the streets per se, but it was more on subways. So, you know, really owning a subway. I mean, there are people that are up more than others. There always were, but there was competition. There was competition in terms of who got up more and there were stylistic competitions as well. And that was the kind of thing that I was more attracted to not the idea of just getting up more and more and more but the idea of like developing style you know first on paper and then on the subways yeah so would you actually do the work would you kind of sketch it all out on paper first and then go yes that's pretty cool people that don't really know kind of make this sort of

try to make this connection between graffiti and gangs. But really, there was no connection. Yeah. You think about a gang at that point in the 70s, a gang could be 50, 100, hundreds of members. Graffiti crew would be like three or five people, you know, maybe a little bit more. So there was no connection. And also the motivation was completely different yeah so talk to me about that because i mean what was what was the real motivation behind

this the motivation i think was um creating something putting it out there and seeing where it would go without you watching over it you know you create a dialogue with other writers kind of unspoken they see what you do they're inspired by it or want to do dialogue with other writers kind of unspoken. They see what you do. They're inspired by it or want to do better. So that's kind of where the unofficial competition kind of comes in. But the whole idea that, you know, you could be going to work, to school, and then you could just see your name unexpectedly. What you do, it has a life of its own. I mean, even to this day, I make paintings in my studio i'll exhibit it but at a certain point if you sell that painting it has a life of its own it goes on you

know it's hanging in somebody's house they may sell it they may resell it but you have to sort of let go it's great to make art but you have to let go. Yeah. I mean, it's so fascinating. The idea that it's sort of like, it's almost like you're creating messages to be sent around. It's like you're having a conversation back and forth to a certain extent, but on trains. Right. Which is kind of a cool concept. So while you guys are doing this, and there's a lot of artistic expression, a lot of fun, and a lot of sort of like seeing your stuff go around. At the same time, the city was not welcoming of what you guys considered art.

Well, I don't think the city was so welcoming, period. Yeah. Well, at that time, right. True enough. True enough. It wasn't too welcoming, period. It was not, I wouldn't say, a tourist-friendly place as it is now, you know. And it had way more of an edge. But having said that, it was much more of a do-it place as it is now, you know, and it had way more of an edge.

But having said that, it was much more of a do-it-yourself culture. You don't have any money, you're not going to get any funding. All right, what are you going to do? So, you have to create your own fun. And that could begin on the streets, little street games that kids have, or it could go as far as music. It could go in any direction. But that's sort of the climate of what was happening in New York. Yeah. And then at some point, I guess, Giuliani comes in and basically decides, okay, you know, like, these guys are the criminals we're going to focus on. He kind of, like, puts a label, you know, on all the people that are doing street art

and graffiti and makes it almost like this major mission. Well, even before giuliani there was earlier than that well yeah that's right it was a touch who hated it and always hated it after that it was giuliani who hated it and hated any kind of street art he hated people that were selling paintings on the street that's right up by the museum i remember there was a thing trying to take them the court and lost and yeah at some point he had his own gallery show, which I thought was hilarious. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.

Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is?

You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. So for you, you're out there writing. And is there a sense that you're building a body of work on the street? Or it wasn't about that? No. I had like kind of very small goals.

I had no idea that other people would catch on to it. And I just figured that this was a phase that I was kind of going through and at a certain point, I would be done with it. And in a way, that's exactly what happened. You know, I had reached all my kind of small goals in terms of painting and the people that I wanted to paint with. And then when I reached those goals, I felt like I was kind of, what I was doing was becoming repetitive. At the same time, now we're kind of jump-starting to like, say, the early 1980s. So, by 1981, I started to exhibit a little bit in galleries. And at that time, there were alternative art spaces, which weren't really commercial gallery spaces. There were more spaces where you could exhibit experimental types of art.

So one of them was a place called Fashion Moda, and I exhibited there. But I also exhibited at other places like Franklin Furnace and ABC No Rio. And, you know, it was great. It was a great kind of place for experimental art because there was no i mean you could sell a painting but that wasn't the impetus for being there or showing there yeah they didn't have those constraints so like what was the impetus why well it was most of those spaces were funded by government grants so they could exist that way. So it's like public spaces. NEA grants, NISCA grants, you know, they were all kind of funded by that. So.

Right. And a lot of amazing people who you'd really be surprised came out of that. Like who? Yeah. Jenny Holzer, the artist Tom Ardenis, John Ahern, Jane Dixon, Charlie Ahern. Amazing lineup. You know, not to mention myself, Crash, Lady Pink, Futura, Zephyr. There were a lot of people that came out of that. I mean, it's interesting also because I guess it was right around the time where guys like Herring were kind of coming up.

And is that right? Am I placing the time right around there? And like then he opened the pop shop in New York. Well, he did about, I want want to say mid 80s right but he was doing stuff in the subways for a long time before that and just around on walls yes yeah so he was a part of the early part of what would now be considered street art keith um jenny holzer richard hambleton jean-michel basquiat They were all doing this kind of, not exactly graffiti, but work that was kind of inspired by that.

I mean, in your mind, is there this clear demarcation between street art and graffiti? Yes, there is. There are people that jump that line, but yeah, there is. Yeah. Would you consider yourself somebody who started out on graffiti and then kind of like made the bridge, the gap to, or were you always sort of more street art? there is. Yeah. Would you consider yourself somebody who started out on graffiti and then kind of like made the bridge, the gap to, or were you always sort of more street art? I consider myself,

uh, an underground artist that came above ground a long time ago. I like subway artists that came above ground. I don't really consider myself a street artist today in, in 2016. Although I still, you know, painting murals is still very much a part of my practice, an important part. But I think that what's considered street art is maybe more public friendly. Whereas graffiti is about letters and it's really much more insular. It's

very different. I don't think you'd have street art if it wasn't for graffiti so it kind of opened the door in your mind in a certain way absolutely i mean it's interesting too because um you know there's a place in new york which left existence last year called five points which was this sort of you know for those who've never visited it was this kind of like a warehouse type of building out in one of the suburbs in queens it was a big building and it became a bit of the mecca for i guess writers and for street artists from all over the world to come and put up pieces and first time i went there i i was blown away because i had no idea how extraordinary like the artistry was some of these things were just i mean moved me so

powerfully i remember there was one piece and a guy named mirrors one which is like maybe i kind of curated that for a better part of a decade or so and you know um and he was one of the artists too and there was one piece that was up on a wall which was this guy i guess somebody who had who who started as a street artist and similar to you, kind of really, really rose up and was showing in galleries and developing. And his style was like massive oversized pointillism. And he would just use these big, you know, round circular dabs. And he had taken a picture of a kid on the subway heading out there and then just loved

the shot and turned around and created this amazing picture. And I was mesmerized by just the extraordinary artistry that really went into this. I don't think I really got how, quote, real the artists were until I saw that. What was amazing about Five Points is that it was this ever-changing thing. You know, it was very democratic in the whole process but it was this whole this kind of organic thing that just was always changing and in the end it really served a great purpose because you could paint there kind of in peace you know and and just kind of do your thing and people would walk by they'd see you It became a real part of the neighborhood.

Like, you know, I think towards the end, people would go out there on the weekends specifically, you know, to watch and photograph people painting and just see how it was done. And I love that about it. You know, also, if you were here visiting from another country and you wanted to paint someplace safe and in a safe environment you know you could you could go there and you could do it you know now that that's gone it's just one less venue for people to paint in a safe environment and i love the fact that you can sort of focus on the ever-changing part of it because i after going out there the first time i went out a number of times and you know maybe six months would pass between times and like the first time I went at a number of times, you know, maybe six months would pass between times.

And like the first time I went back, the big shocker for me was most of the pieces that I saw the first time were gone. Right. You know, that there was something, you know, ephemeral about it. It's like, you know, part of the ethic was like, these are up here, but they're going to be painted over and that's okay. Right. Which kind of seems foreign to us because you look at this like, this is stunning.

Like, how can I take it home with me? Or how can it be there forever? And the thought that, you know, the person who put it up is like, part of the process is it's going to go away, never to be seen again. Yeah. Yeah. No, it was just something that lasted for that moment. I guess to come full circle on that story, for those who aren't aware of it, that it was actually owned privately by somebody who basically came one night in the middle of the night and whitewashed the whole building and then tore it down. Well, they had a court case.

Right. It was a long-going battle. Yes. It wasn't exactly, you know, oh, yeah, they did do it kind of overnight. But I think legally they wanted to say, okay, from here on, it's all painted white and you can't paint here anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I'd spoken to Mir's one at one point. He was saying there was a years-long legal thing. But in any event, that was my real first exposure, the fact that, wow, there's stunning stuff that's coming out of this culture.

And it wasn't just people who were tagging and just sort of like doing things. So, when you start to make the transition from working in the street to the public art places, in your mind, is this a career that you're building or are you just kind of rolling with where your heart's taking you? A little bit of both. You know, I mean, I never got into kind of painting trains or murals as a career move. Unlike now, some people do. But at that point, you know, I didn't. I just started kind of making paintings and I thought, I like this. to exhibit, you know, some places like the Mud Club, which was a club, legendary club in New York City in the early 80s and Fashion Moda and, you know, just these different group shows and participate. So I started to see something in it that I was really interested in being a part of. But even still, I mean, I had no idea how far it would take me or how far it would go globally. Yeah. What were you focusing on in terms of sort of like developing the craft side of it? Because, you know, if you go from, it's funny, if I look at your work now,

it seems like there, it's this amazing marriage of like totally different medium, totally different styles. And somehow it all comes together and it just works. Thanks. Well, I think basically when I started making my very first paintings were just of my name. Same thing I would do, say, on a subway car, you know, in spray paint, my name. And I wasn't that interested in that. You know, I just thought, wow, there's a new medium. So I need a new approach.

If there's one thing I think I got known for on the trains is I would always kind of draw my own characters. Not to draw already existing characters but to create my own. So, I started doing that kind of on campus. I started making character-based work that was representational of the neighborhood and different things that I saw. And I thought, wow, that's really interesting. That's where I want to go with this. Yeah.

So, early on, you know, I was doing this character-based representational work in spray paint on canvas. But I also used acrylic paint for small scale things. Yeah. And I just kept doing it. Yeah. Did you work sort of with others or solo or – because I know – In the studio? Yeah.

Well, I shared a studio with Crash. I still do for a long time. And, you know, every so often we would collaborate. I've collaborated with some other people people but normally it was a real singular process yeah and for those unaware who's crash crash is uh another artist that's also pretty well known yeah and i guess we should also you know just skating by you know like chris elliott but your name like you go by days yeah is there where's that come from? I just made it up. Yeah. Yeah. There's no like crazy backstory. No, no stories.

It's just like, that sounds cool. Yeah. That's cool. So at some point you start to really get traction and you're showing up in galleries, you're doing all sorts of other cool things and you show up in collections also. But like you said, it seems like public spaces is still a big part of you. Well, you know, at that point, it wasn't just galleries, but it was also films and books. Like there was Henry Chalfant and Martha Cooper's book, Subway which sought to kind of portray the culture of hip hop in New York City.

That was also this thing that went global. It was huge. And then from there, Henry Chalfant and Tony Silvers made a documentary, which is still to this day just amazing called style wars and those three things initially kind of brought attention around the world they were distributed they were shown from what i understand while style was shown on tv in europe even though there was no kind of distribution deal it was still shown in you know on tv you know I don't think that would hit TV like now it would back then. I think it was shown on PBS here a few times. Right. And it was in the movie theaters here.

Right. But there it was on TV. So, kids saw that and they just flipped. And also, I mean, don't forget Subway Art was, you know, and after that, there was another book with Henry Shelfont and and james prigoff spray can art which sought to not just show what was going on in new york but how it was spreading around the world and around the country yeah i got one of the things i'm curious about that i'm going to bounce around a little bit here because part of what you do is you use like you said use

acrylics and so i'm curious just about the way that you work with radically different media you know like because you're you've got spray paint got acrylics, you're doing it on pretty massive canvases these days. Right. But it's, it's amazing. It's like when I first started thinking about spray paint, you know, I'm thinking, okay, so you go to Home Depot and you've got, you know, 12 different colors. The type of paint that's used now is, I mean, it's changed a lot from what I understand. And also like the spectrum of colors is mind-blowing. I mean, you see people here, you know, in 2016 doing photorealistic work in spray paint, that is. The reason why they're able to do that is simply because they have better materials. I mean, when I was painting, we had a really limited spectrum of colors to work with.

So it was hard to control. It's basically a couple of different caps. That was it. You know, now the whole process is totally refined. Instead of just, say, two different kinds of purple, there's 10 different kinds of purple. So you can really, you know, you can get better technically much faster now, you know, and people are doing incredible work that couldn't be conceived of, you know, in the early 1980s. Yeah. And it was interesting. I had one of my trips out to Five Points. I was

watching somebody paint and that was, I looked at his supplies and there's, you know, like you said, they're like seven shades of purple and all these really beautiful gradations of colors. And I was kind of blown away. But I was watching him paint. And what was fascinating to me was this particular person was painting the way a trained artist would paint, not the way that the average person would paint. He was painting in terms of sort of like light tones across a wide spectrum of the whole canvas and then he would go with sort of like the next gradation of light or color so like he knew exactly where he was going but you know somebody who was never exposed to the way that a lot of artists work that way had no clue until it you

know almost towards the end when it all just started to come together. It was kind of mesmerizing to watch that. Yeah. I think in terms of my own process, it's very layered as well. Yeah, take me into that. My typical painting is not just spray paint. It's spray paint, oil, and acrylic. Typical painting, no matter what the scale now. And originally for many years, you know,

I'd do a spray painting that was on a large scale because it was easier to work with. But when it came to doing something on a smaller scale, I was unable to get the same effect. So, I would pretty much make the whole painting in acrylic. But now, the paint has gotten better. My technique has gotten more refined and years later, you know, I'm still working. Now it's sort of this marriage of all these different things together. So I definitely work in this process in the studio that is much more time consuming, layered. But yet it has like passages that I'd say are very spontaneous and then other passages that are very detailed and you can tell, you know, kind of took a long time to make.

Yeah, no doubt. What's your, do you even have a typical day in the studio? No, no. I've had in my life, I'm not having a typical day ever. Yeah. I try not to anyway. Take me deeper into that. Why do you try not to?

What's the... If I wanted to have a typical day, I mean, I'd be in an office, you know, or I'd have a job like that. I've had jobs, but I've pretty much made my living as an artist for decades now, for better or worse. Some days, say, I may spend the whole day working on studies for something I'd like to do. The next day, I'm going in the studio and I'm working on it, probably working on several paintings simultaneously. So in that way, it changes.

You know, I work on one painting one day. The next day, while that other painting is drying, I'll do something else and so on and so forth. Some days are just about, say, researching things. So it changes. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised.

The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot.

Flight Risk. One of the awesome things about the work that I saw, the show that I saw of yours at the Museum of the City of New York, is it was sort of, it was set up around the room in kind of date order. Yes. So it spanned a few decades. And so it was amazing to see the evolution of your style, the evolution of the medium that you were working with, but also the subject matter. I mean, in the early days, it was like a lot of the work that you were doing is almost like a snapshot of everyday life. Right. You know, whereas for the last looks like two, three, four years, the content is much more complex and overlapping of all sorts of different things.

Well, the show at the Museum of the City of New York is not really meant to be a retrospective. It's more like a testament to my love affair with New York City as subject matter. So, you know, the earliest things in the show are directly from the museum's collection. Man. Kind of showing where I began. Then after that, it's mid-1990s and it's my Coney Island paintings and it was the first real series that I took on as a series subject matter to explore. After that, it's Times Square, Staten Island Ferry. And as you said, some of the paintings are kind of like snapshots of everyday life. And in that way, I was thinking about Edward Hopper.

You know, I look at Edward Hopper and I look at Reginald Marsh as two painters that are very different, but whose careers at some point overlapped. Reginald Marsh was really amazing for kind of capturing New York City in the 1930s and 40s. What it was like on the Bowery, the Burlesque Houses, Coney Island. He was capturing, you know, but I feel that his work doesn't really transcend that moment the way Edward Hopper's paintings do. And his paintings to me are more about he's capturing this mood that people can look at decades later and they can kind of still feel this particular mood. And in some of my work, I'm striving for that as well kind of creating a mood that's a fascination of mine is you know like what's and it's going to be different for every person who creates but and i'm sure it evolves over time too but like what's really driving

the work that you're doing at any given moment in time you know is it about just a deep need for personal expression is it about wanting to create something in someone else? And really, how do you balance those two? Well, I mean, it's a lot of both. I mean, I don't really think about who's going to be looking at this afterward very much. It's more like the work that I create, particularly now in the studio, each piece, I try to put as much into it as I can. And I strive for it to be successful no matter what the scale, whether it's the study or whether it's a large scale painting. And a lot of it is about creating a certain mood and that mood can change.

Some of the paintings are like looking at reflections in the glass. You'll see all these different layers that kind of come through simultaneously and i like that i also like it when people kind of have their own interpretations of the paintings too and it's not so literal like okay that's a painting of a police car or whatever or a building you know it's more than that it's a scene yeah it's a story some of the paintings do have this narrative yeah i mean it's funny i get these flashes of uh art school teachers you know like telling the students in a class this is what the artist was trying to convey and this is the story they were trying to tell you know i wonder if sometimes we we think that we're like we know exactly what was in the artist's head like

during this moment in time yeah it's funny in particular i'll read you know when you look at auction catalogs if there's like a multi-million dollar painting there they'll always have this sort of story it's kind of explaining this painting and i'm thinking who writes this stuff i mean some of it is uh is so it's all well written, but it's so far off left field. It's really amazing. You know, I mean, especially like somebody like Basquiat, you know, who I knew and, you know, saw create a lot of these hugely successful works and know what was going on behind the scenes. I'm reading this thing going, no way was it like that. Or did he have that in mind at all? You know? Amazing.

Yeah. I think it's just we love to place ourselves in the minds of the creator and feel like in some way we know what they were thinking or experiencing or trying to say. But I love your lens on the fact that you love to also create and let people just kind of derive their own story from it. Yeah. That's fine. That's fine. Which also kind of goes along with your early ethic of you're putting the work out there and like you have to let it go. Right.

I've always had a really great work ethic. I, you know, I was reading about, say, Lucian Freud or Francis Bacon. You know, both of those artists had incredible work ethics. Whatever was going on in their personal life, you know, they always got up and they always painted. Whether I had inspiration or not, they weren't waiting around and I kind of, their inspiration came as they worked and I'm the same way. You know, the more I work, the more inspiration kind of comes and more ideas come. When I stop working, that's when, you know, I'm just sort of like in limbo. It's better to pick it up and kind of get moving. Talk to me more about what you think happens when you stop working and you go to that place

you described as limbo. What's actually... Well, it's just, it becomes really frustrating, I think, because you have this sort of built up energy and you want to do something. So it's better just to kind of go into the studio and try to get busy. Part of what you also do is you travel around the world and it seems like you have a certain affinity for working with kids. Right. Tell me a little bit about that and how that arose and what you're doing with it.

Well, I didn't really have great experiences in school. Even in art school, I didn't. You know, art and design, the best thing that came out of that was being around other kids that were artists. So, that was great. So, anyway, I knew that like when I started to work with kids, you know, on these mural projects and these mural workshops, I knew the type of teacher I wasn't going to be, you know, automatically, no matter where I'm working, I don't look at the kids as my assistants. You know, I look at them more as my collaborators. And I look at their drawings or I talk to them and we have discussions before we start to actually work and try to figure out, you know, what they're interested in, you know, where their head is at. And from there, you know, we go, we try to create a composition or idea or a theme. And, you know, sometimes when the group of kids is really big, I try to break them up into little groups so they could get used to the idea of collaborating and working as teams, but kind of come together all together in the end. So, I look at myself as just this maybe art director in a way

more as a teacher. I mean, they're learning things from me, but I don't want to be so overbearing. I want them to be proud of the finished product. Yeah. And I mean, you have, and we'll link to this in the show notes, you know, you have actually on your website, some images of the walls that you've created with kids pretty much all over the world. What do you get from that that's different from just doing your own work? That was something that came about accidentally, you know, working with kids. Initially, it was just like a job, something I got paid for first couple of times and they were offering a little fee. And I saw early on that it was, I had their attention. So that's half the battle right there. So I started to kind of develop these mural

workshops and programs with kids. Most of them are kids from underprivileged backgrounds, but they can cross the complete economic spectrum. I've worked with kids, you know, from really great financial means. But I realized that no matter what the situation was, it was kind of a win-win for everyone involved. The kids got something out of it. I did. The people who fund the projects get something out of it and the parents do as well. And it's very rare that you can do some kind of project where everyone is getting something out of it. Yeah. What is it you feel like the kids get out of it and what is it that you feel like you get out of it? Well, the kids are gaining experience. And as I said earlier, I'm not using them as my assistants. So, I like them to walk away with a sense of ownership.

Like, yeah, I did that. They can walk away with this sense of pride. So that's what they're getting out of it. And it's public too. So they can bring their family, bring their friends. They know other people are going to walk by and see it. And it's like they can point to that and say. Yeah, exactly. And I'm getting something out of it too.

Obviously. I mean, I love that feeling. I mean, it's not something I do full time. You know, I get paid to do it. But, you know, it's this kind of sense of gratification in a way. I might feel differently about it if I were doing that full time. But I do it enough annually so that, you know, it doesn't become like a headache. It's still sort of I like doing it.

Yeah. I wonder if there's anything sort of that goes on with you that sort of reaches back and sees kids, like you said, you know, like there are a number of times where these kids maybe come from neighborhoods or places in the world where there's not a lot of opportunity or where there's, you know, there's the economics are really bad. And to potentially see light bulbs go on saying like wait a minute there's there's like a spark here like to see them connect with maybe something that lights them up in maybe they're living a day-to-day life where everything else is pretty much snuffed out i'd say two years ago i did a project with the Phillips Academy in Andover and the Addison Museum.

And I worked with students there. And if you know anything about the Phillips Academy, it's an amazing high school, prep school. But I also worked in a nearby community that was less fortunate. Kids from Lawrence High School. And they were kind of brought into the space at the Phillips Academy. And we worked on a cycle of paintings together. And I could see the difference, you know, in the education that the kids from Lawrence High School were getting and the kids from the Addison, I mean, sorry, the Phillips Academy were getting really, really different.

It took a little bit longer to sort of bridge this gap with the kids from Lawrence. But by the end of it, they really kind of blew me away with what they did. They created this cycle of paintings that I thought was incredible. And it really, I just had to be, spend a little bit more time with them and be a little bit more patient and not just give up. And then in the end, they got it. You know, the kids at the Phillips Academy, they were able to grasp it, what we were doing a lot quicker, but I don't think any one thing was better than the other. You know, I was particularly proud of the kids from Lawrence High School.

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because we're in a time now where in sort of the educational system in the US, there's all such a change going on. People are grappling with a lot of trying to figure out how to actually make it work. But one of the things that's happened over the last generation, really, you know, like when I went to school, I'm guessing probably when you went to school too, I remember, you know, when I was young, we had art class. It was just everybody had art class, you know, we had a big giant art room and there was stuff all over the place. And I still remember the smell of walking into that room. Yeah, it's great. You know, and it seems like more and more, it's like almost with each passing year, especially in public schools.

You know, like the first things to go, one of the first things to go are music and art. So, kids just aren't, they're not getting exposure to it the way you and I did. Yeah, it's a real sad thing. I think a state of our society as a whole in the United States, where you just, the first thing to go was an arts program or a music program because those are vehicles that kids can use as a form of not just expression, but communication with the outside world you know you have these people that are just cutting funding thinking that those programs are expendable it's a horrible practice yeah so it's fun because when i see what you're doing with some of the walls

it's almost like you know it reaches back in and gives them just a moment of saying oh this is interesting this is cool and maybe you know like there's something I'd like to continue doing on some level with this. So as we sit here now, it's the beginning of 2016. Happy New Year, by the way. Happy New Year. We've just survived the storm of the century or whatever it was in New York City. When you think about, let me even ask a question before that. The way that you're sort of building

your career and building your life and building your work, do you think sort of like ahead of like, this is what I want to build over the next year, three years, five years, this is a body of work I want to create? Or for you, is it more just like you're doing the work you're doing now? Or how do you think about the difference between what's happening in the present moment versus what you're looking to create? you think about the difference between what's happening in the present moment versus, you know, what you're looking to create? Well, it's really hard to sort of plan for the future with what I'm doing. It just is. I've definitely tried to treat my practice as this daily ritual that I go through

and I feel like in doing this ritual that things will grow from it. So, I never know what's going to happen, you know, from one year to the next. I mean, it's really hard to predict because opportunities kind of knock on your door and you never know when they're going to come. So, it's hard to plan for that. I mean, I have a loose idea of what's happening. I have a monograph that's coming out in June that's published by Schiffer Books. So, I know that a lot more people are going to be exposed to my body of work after that. It'll be distributed in bookstores and people will be able to find it. But, you know, you just kind of settle into the fact that this is what you do, whether it's working with kids on mural projects or making paintings in the studio for some exhibition in a gallery or a museum, whether in New York or

some other part of the world or working on your own mural projects. This is all kind of a part of what you do. That's it. You mentioned you have sort of like a daily ritual approach. Can you share what that and sort of like the main pieces of the ritual are? Well, I mean, I get up really like stuff that's not that interesting. It'd be like office work, answering emails and blah, blah, blah. I mean, you know, that stuff is just really not that interesting or applying for something or, you know, whatever. You know, and then finally I make my way to the studio and try to work four or five hours a day in the studio. Work and come home. I have two boys and a wife and do that.

And, you know, all that is pretty much my life. Yeah. How do you, when your boys see sort of like the work that you do, are they drawn to an artistic path also or not? Yeah, I think so. I mean, they come to my studio, they paint from time to time. And, you know, with my oldest one, he went through this like really manic stage of drawing a lot. And then he kind of stopped for a bit. And now when he comes home, the first thing he wants to do was draw again. So I got him both of them, you know, sketch pads to kind of collect their drawings in because we just had all these

loose drawings all over the house. And he really, he really loves doing that. So I encourage it. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting always because you're kind of on the one hand, like, ah, that's cool. You know, like on the other hand too, I don't, I don't know how old your sons are, but like kids reach a certain age where you don't want to tell them. That's really good. You should do more of it because like then they're going to not do it because they feel like they're being told what to do. So it's, I think as a parent,

it's really interesting to figure out the best way to encourage it. And I wonder if in the end, the best way is just like to do your work and just let them see you doing your work. Yeah, it's both. I mean, they like watching me or even looking at a painting that I completed. But I think the best thing, you know, for me is just to be encouraging, but also to expose them to as much as I can. Art or music. I mean, I think that's really important. So we go to museums and we go to some galleries and I talk to them about it when I'm in the museum, you know, about colors or, you know,

different things. And they enjoy it or they enjoy kind of talking about it at times too. Yeah, that's very cool. I want to kind of come full circle here. It's so much fun to have a few weeks ago walked into a museum in New York, seen this body of work that I was blown away by, and then just be hanging out with you today. And, you know, getting to know you a little bit as a person, knowing your backstory and sort of your approach to work. So the name of this is a good life project. So if I offer that phrase out to you, to live a good life. What bubbles up for you? To live a good life, you have to have interest. Interest can take you real far and can help you transcend difficulty. So having interest in life is really important. It helps you to have a complete life. Cool. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, thanks so much for listening. We love sharing real unscripted conversations and ideas that matter. And if you enjoy that too, and if you enjoy what we're up to, I'd be so grateful if you would take just a few seconds and rate and review the podcast.

It really helps us get the word out. You can actually do that now right from the podcast app on your phone. If you have an iPhone, you just click on the reviews tab and take a few seconds and jam over there. And if you haven't yet subscribed while you're there, then make sure you hit the subscribe button while you're at it. And then you'll be sure to never miss out on any of our incredible guests or conversations or riffs. And for those of you, our awesome community who are on other platforms, any love that you might be able to offer sharing our message would just be so appreciated. Until next time, this is Jonathan

Fields signing off for Good Life Project. We'll be right back. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required,

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