Good Life Project - Cleo Wade | Leading and Creating from the Heart [Best Of]

Episode Date: October 19, 2020

My guest on today’s Best Of conversation, Cleo Wade, is a community builder, artist, activist, and the author of the books, Heart Talk: Poetic Wisdom for a Better Life (https://amzn.to/2Ltivce) and Where to Begin: A small about book your power to create big change in our crazy world. She has been called the poet of her generation by Time Magazine and one of the 100 most creative people in business by Fast Company. Cleo sits on the board of The Lower East Side Girls Club, the National Black Theatre in Harlem, the Women’s Prison Association. Her art ranges from short, hand-written posts to collaborations with major brands and large-scale public art installations, including a 25-foot love poem in the skyline of the New Orleans French Quarter titled “Respect.”In today’s conversation, we explore her younger years, growing up as a biracial kid in the famed New Orleans French Quarter with two fiercely-creative parents influenced, how Hurricane Katrina changed everything, what led her to New York for many years, how she walked away from a career as a rising star in fashion to rediscover and cultivate a deeper, artistic voice as a writer and artist, sharing her work online and in public spaces and leveraging her influence for social justice. Be sure to listen to the end, where Cleo reads a moving poem from Heart Talk.You can find Cleo Wade at:Website : https://www.cleowade.com/Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/cleowade/-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sparketypes/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

My guest today on this best of conversation, Cleo Wade, is a community builder, an artist, activist, and the author of the books, Heart Talk, Poetic Wisdom for a Better Life, and Where to Begin, a small book about your power to create big change in our crazy world. She's been called the poet of her generation by Time Magazine, one of the 100 most creative people in business by Fast Company. Cleo sits on the board of the Lower East Side Girls Club, the National Black Theater in Harlem, the Women's Prison Association. Her art ranges from short handwritten posts to collaborations with major brands and large-scale public art installations, including a 25-foot love poem in the skyline of the New Orleans French Quarter titled Respect.

In today's conversation, we explore her younger years growing up as a biracial kid in the famed New Orleans French Quarter with two fiercely creative yet very different parents and how that influenced her, how Hurricane Katrina changed everything, what led her to New York for many years, how she walked away from a career as a rising star in fashion to rediscover and cultivate a deeper artistic voice as a writer and artist, really sharing her work online and in public spaces, and then focusing on community her work online and in public spaces, and then focusing on community building and activism and leveraging her influence for social justice. Be sure to listen to the end where Cleo reads a really moving poem from Heart Talk. So excited to

share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. I grew up in New Orleans. I always say that I grew up with three parents, my mother, my father, in the city of New Orleans, because it's such a unique place that has so much character, and it's really specific. So it's unlike even cities like New York, it's so open, and there's such an endless amount of possibilities to build and treat people as an environment. But in New Orleans, there's so many specific indigenous things to that city,

whether it's the music, whether it's the burial ceremonies, whether it's the food or the culture of living really hugely outside of your body with costumes and dancing in the streets. And it's such a liberated space. Yeah. Do you have memories of that from sort of like the earliest age? Oh, yeah. I mean, this year, because of my book tour, I missed Jazz Fest for the first time in 30 years. I've literally gone since I was in the womb. And so I remember being the kid who, and Jazz Fest is not a usual music festival. It's nothing like Coachella or any of those kind of trendy things. It is, there's a gospel tent.

There's a blues tent. There's a jazz tent. Yeah, it's legendary. Yeah, there's Congo Square, which has all this amazing Africana music. It is, and like carnival food, it has, it's all the best restaurants in the city make their best dish and have a booth. And so it's this incredible culinary experience. And so I think that my kind of earliest moments of joy and independence as a child, because growing up there, you have so much freedom in that festival. Because you're like, okay, you know where your parents are.

So you can run around and you can go get your own jambalaya and come back and you always know where to meet and be. And so I think that probably my happiest memories of my experience as a child in New Orleans was definitely going to Jazz Fest. Oh, no kidding. Yeah, probably more than even Mardi Gras. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it's such a legendary city for so many different reasons, like you were saying. Sort of like New York is this huge melting pot and there are many things going on. But New Orleans really does have this sort of like music seems to be music and art. And like you, how did you describe it? Almost like living bigger in some way. It's got this reputation of like everything is big and loud and celebratory. Very, I think celebratory is the key word. And it's also very human and connective. I mean, I remember when I moved to New York, I'd never really understood DJs. Like

I couldn't understand why anyone would go anywhere where the music wasn't live and being played by people. And I'd never really seen it before because even when I was a kid and sneaking into bars underage or whatever, even in the college bars there, it's all about what band is there and who's playing. It was never about kind of this eyes closed dancing DJ kind of experience. It was all about this interaction between human beings like, oh, you do this thing, let's all about this, this interaction between human beings, like, oh, you do this thing. Let's talk about this thing. And, and, and, and let's all dance. And it's a very community oriented in that way. So what kind of a kid were you when you were coming up there?

You know, because, so A, I grew up in a, you know, New Orleans is so diverse in a lot of ways, but the suburbs outside of New Orleans aren't diverse at all. So I, and so what ends up happening is like a lot of the private schools aren't diverse either. So when I was growing up as a kid and I went to public school, the school really was a melting pot. It really did. I think my happiest years were probably going to Lusher, which was the name of my elementary school, because you because it was this creative arts school. So you could do modern dance and you could do tap and you could be in plays and you could do art and writing. And then I played like kind of sports and things after school. And that was a really diverse community. When I went to high school, I ended up going to a Catholic private school, which in retrospect

was kind of a weird choice because my family could not afford it. We did not grow up with money. And I, for the first time, knew what it was like to be the only Black girl in the room. And beyond that, even as a kid, when I had such a diverse group of friends at Lesher, I still was never quite, I never quite knew what it was like to really fit in because if you're white, it's very easy to go places and be around all white people. If you're black, you can always find places that are black spaces. So they may not be as easy to come around as an oppressed minority group, but you could go to Essence Festival and you can look around and there's nothing but beautiful black people everywhere. But as a kid who's mixed race, you know, you don't really go into a room and see an entire room full of people who look like you. You don't see any, so I never saw celebrity cultures or people on billboards who looked like me. And so I think because even from a really early age, I never, because I never looked like anyone and no one ever looked like me,

I always knew that, you know, there was this value in being able to feel comfortable even though you're different. And I think that that was something that was really, that was instilled in me at a really early age, which was that, okay, you'll never fit in. So try to have a good time anyway. And so I never tried to count on fitting in as far as that being a part of how I could feel happy or well-adjusted or a part of a group or a space. Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense. And yet it's also, it's not an easy place necessarily to come to. Oh, yeah.

And I think that the lucky thing about being a kid is that you go through things and it's not until you're a little bit older that you realize that it was painful, but you're so resilient and so open. And so, you know, we don't know how to name what those things are as a kid. So I will say that I didn't, you know, you know, maybe not until I was in high school where I really started to feel deep insecurity about, you know, who I was and, and, and the harsh environment of the, my surroundings, as far as intense racism that went on in my high school. And, you know, and so I think it wasn't until then that that's where I kind of developed where you get that kind of hard shell.

I think that as the kid who was growing up, I was like, oh, I'm just different. But, you know, at 30, I'm like, oh, here's the reasons why you felt different. And then you understand that there is a little pain there. But because you can name it later, you feel I feel very healed in that way. And then the things that kind of went on in my high school years, those are the things I had to really work for a long time to heal from. Because, you know, when you build up insecurities at that age, those are the things you end up taking with you that you really have to unpack later. So that's where you build up this thing of competing or comparing yourself to other

women or being kind of rude or mean or harsh as like an exterior to not let people too close to you because then they might know how deeply insecure or kind of vulnerable and uncomfortable you do feel as you move through the world. And so, you know, that is the stuff that I really had to take a lot of my, most of my 20s to say like, you know what? Okay, I understand that I live in a world of circumstances that brought me to this place. And I didn't, I couldn't really figure out how to do better at an earlier age. But now I know, I realize I could change any of those things about myself. Like I don't have to be that way for my entire life because of these things that happened in my high school years

or childhood or the circumstances of just even living in this country, right? I mean, we live in these systems and structures that are built for us to kind of walk around as insecure as we could possibly be because it's a lot easier to control us that way. Man, there's so much to unpack there. You began writing at a really early age. So now I'm curious, maybe, I don't know if you can even answer this, but do you have a sense that that was in any way your form of, or one of the ways that you sort of were able to channel whatever's going on

your mind and feel, find whatever it is, that place that was okay for you? You know, I think that as a child, what I feel so lucky to have inherited from both of my parents, my mom is a chef and my dad is an artist. And so what I really got from being raised by these two people was that no matter how you want to express yourself, just knowing that expressing yourself is important. You know, my mom's in a disco dance troupe on the weekends and cooks and would never maybe pick up a paintbrush. And my dad would maybe only pick up a camera. He's a photographer and he may not create in any other ways, but they knew the importance of being able to take what's inside of you and manifest it into something physical and something that you can

touch and be with and see in a different way, whether that's in a pot of gumbo or in a framed photograph on a wall. And so I think as a child, I, I loved, I always loved writing. And I went to a poetry summer camp at a really early age. And when I remember the first class, I tell the story a lot is I, is the teacher said, I was so young, I was like six. So she was like, how do you write a poem? I was like, I have no idea. And she was like, I just want you to not make sense. She goes, I want you to think of every bird you've ever seen and every color you've ever seen a bird. And now I want you to describe the exact bird you've never seen. And that was really the first time that as a kid, I was like, oh my gosh, there's a job in the world where you get

to just live in your imagination all day long. And it was so interesting because the first year I took that class and it was an art summer camp and that was the fifth period class. It always is at the end of the day. And so the first year, and it was a really amazing creative arts camp that I got a scholarship to every year for basically my whole childhood. So the first year my mom made me do it. And then all the other years, I always did it. And I always told my friends, you know, you go through that, like you're trying to be cool as an eight-year-old. And I was like, oh, my mom makes me do it. Every year, my mom used to be like, I don't make her do it anymore. And I was like, shh. Because so, yeah. And so I knew that there was something that really drew me to that. And because of the time, you know,

I also danced and played sports. And I think that really more than anything, I just knew that it was important to express yourself. And that's what I talk to my audience so much about is whatever it is, move it out of your body and get it in front of you in some type of way, or move it through your body to just even get it out. And I always encourage everyone to write because when you can take what's inside of you and put it in front of you and go through it, you can also see so clearly the stories you've been telling yourself for a really long time. And if you want to change those, it's a lot easier to change them when you can really clearly see what you keep telling yourself. Yeah, that makes so much sense. So it's kind of like you knew that you had something fiercely creative inside of you that had to get out, whether it was just as a form of expression or a form of looking at it and trying to let that help you figure out who you are, what your thoughts were, and how you were in the world.

Even if it was a fun outfit. Yeah. You know, because for a lot of kids, too, and I think especially for young girls, because there's so much more pressure of fashion because we dress them as princesses, not as Jedis, as children. So I'll sell a lot of the first place. And especially like for me, I didn't grow up with a lot of money. So we'd end up at thrift stores a lot, which meant that in order to make it look cool or trendy, you had to be pretty creative because you didn't have the resources to kind of like go through the catalog and buy the outfit that, you know, was the thing at the time. And so even through clothing, I used to just kind of push and piece all these things together. And I still do that.

Did there come a time where it became more of an intentional thing? Like there, I'm going to, I'm going to engage in these tools and these palettes and clothing because it really is, it's helping me figure out who I am. And it's also, it's like representing something that is like me in the world. Yeah. You know, I remember really distinctly a moment in high school where somebody said, probably behind my back. Everything happens in high school. As things happen in high school they're like

Cleo just dresses like this and acts like this to get attention and what do they mean when they said like this and I think that it just meant that I would you know wear something funky or fun or strange or you know bright or whatever it was Because I always worked when I was, because I grew up in the French Quarter, I always worked because I was, the French Quarter in New Orleans is only 12 blocks long. And most people don't realize that because it's really this fun part of the city. But if you live there, it's a really small neighborhood. And so I'd always see these women. And I think that's really where I got my first kind of bug for this kind of female entrepreneur, because I always saw

these women who own these clothing stores. And so I would sneak in and work for them when I was like 12 and they'd have to pay me under the table because it was illegal for me to work. But I was obsessed with these women who just created these communities of all these other women that worked for them. And they all made these beautiful things. And they were also kind of interesting and cool and did and wore things and did things in different ways and then helped other people feel good about themselves by putting on this dress or this thing or dress for this special occasion. And so I think that I naturally kind of started to have a little bit of a more flamboyant way of dressing than probably the rest of my peers.

Also because I was around those types of adults on the weekends, I didn't hang out with that many kids on the weekends because of my neighborhood. I was the only kid in the French Quarter except my brother. And so I think that that was a moment where I realized that I was like, you know, it's interesting to feel like, no, I didn't dress that way or act that way for attention. I did that because that made me feel expressed and that made things feel interesting to me. And it was really a lesson in being like, wow, you know, to decide to live the way you want to live, you have to do it with a lot of bravery. Because even if it doesn't even harm a single soul, they'll have a judgment or opinion about what it is.

And I remember in that moment, having even as such a young girl being like, well, which way do you go? Do you conform so that no one says anything about what you do or do you continue to be yourself? And I think that's where that intention came in where I was like, no, you have to be me even if I was kind of this crippled version of myself

because I still was really pretty insecure and kind of harsh, I feel, looking back, you know? Yeah. But even so, I mean, that level of fortitude, that level of conviction, even if it's not fully embraced and fully embodied, that's really unusual for anybody that age. I mean, do you own that? But you know, it's so hard because a lot of the times I don't know that it's just because if you spend enough time reflecting and give it

the proper language, you realize that we've made these wise choices throughout our lives. We've all made these wise choices throughout our lives, or we've all had these moments of kind of divine wisdom and understanding through our lives. I probably, when I was in high school, couldn't have told you with the, I couldn't have articulated it the way I did just now. I probably would have been like, oh, screw her. Right, I'm doing what I wanted to. I'm doing what I wanted to do. Like, she's not stopping me.

Like, she's just jealous or whatever. All those things that actually like are just the hurt feelings speaking, but from still this place of conviction of I'm gonna be who I wanna be. And so I think that when you heal the hurt feelings speaking, but from still this place of conviction of I'm going to be who I want to be. And so I think that when you heal those hurt feelings and you can speak from a place of peace, then you really can articulate what that conviction was about in a place that has a little bit more knowledge and wisdom. Yeah. It takes time and reflection. When were

you in high school? When did you graduate high school? So I graduated from high school in 2006 and then I moved to New York. Okay. So that was then a year after Katrina. Yeah. So you were there. Yeah. What?

Tell me how you experienced that. You know, it's really interesting because I was just listening to Mitch Landrieu's book. He just left as the mayor of New Orleans. And it's an amazing book. It's called A White Southerner Confronts History. And I'm listening to it because he narrates it and his voice is so soothing. And he even had a chapter and it wasn't about, his book is not about Katrina at all. It was about actually the way, it was about his journey and being able to take the Confederate monuments down in the city and all the backlash he got.

Sorry, I just had such a moment of even visualizing that. And in it, he does have a chapter where he talks about Katrina. And I realized that it was, I almost had to fast forward. It was still hard for me to hear. I really think that even in the past, have you noticed that even in the past five years as a culture where you could have been so much more space for trauma and anxiety and depression? And so I think that when Katrina happened, we as a culture were still so suppressed when it came to acknowledging that and what anyone goes through. I mean, you know, now we would never have a, you know, whether it was the shooting in Texas or the hurricane in Puerto Rico,

we would never not want to all sit down as a community because the wellness community has gotten also so big and connected and not say we need to talk about the trauma that these people are going through. And that was really something that was missing from what happened with the people of New Orleans and Katrina, which was that, I mean, I had people, we had people we knew who were doctors committing suicide. There was an influx of people using heroin in the city right after. There was, I mean, it was such a dark period, especially like the year that year following, those months right after. And I still have so many friends that I feel truly never healed from that experience because we were, it was never even acknowledged that we'd be broken from it.

Or when you see entire neighborhoods vanish or the entire demographics of a city change drastically. And I think it is really something that I think even now, 10 and 12 years later, I'm still processing. And I remember for the 10 year anniversary, I did a public art piece there that was this giant billboard that is a poem that ended up in my book. And it says, baby, you are the strongest flower that ever grew. Remember that when the weather changes. And I remember the day it went up and my mom and I just sat there crying because I kept thinking, God, I wish I could have looked at this 10 years ago so that I could even have had someone acknowledge that, yes, we are strong, but we have to acknowledge that the weather has changed here and there's something we have to make it through, not just try to get back to normal, rebuild. You know, we get into this worker bee mode a lot when we're afraid and we really skip the emotions, the things that we go through a lot of the time. We instead just get busy. And, you know, when you skip half of the grief cycle, you really don't heal right in the first place. And it kind of sneaks up on you over time. The Apple Watch Series X is here.

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jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. I haven't been through anything like that, but I'm a long-time New Yorker and I was here when 9-11 happened. Which was profoundly different in so many ways. And it was also, you know, it was isolated to a very defined area in the city

in terms of the actual damage. And yet the loss and the specter of loss and the heaviness and the grief, it's like the entirety, I mean, the entire country felt it. But if you were in New York, and especially if you're a longtime New Yorker, which I am,

nobody got out without losing somebody they lost that day. And it's interesting the way you describe this sort of window for healing that's necessary. Because what I experienced in New York was there was like a six month window or so after the actual event where people were just suffering so horrendously. And yet at the same time,

there was an openness and a vulnerability and a brotherhood and sisterhood and a willingness to just walk down the street, don't look at anybody and say, how can I help you? That was beautiful. And because unlike what happened in New Orleans, everybody stayed, whereas a lot of the city was forced out where you were. So there wasn't a chance to sort of stay in this place as a community and work through it together and heal together. So I know what I went through, but I can't imagine then being totally dispersed with sort of like what. Yeah, dispersed. And then the people that were your neighbors may now be strangers, right? Or the energy you're used to seeing in certain neighborhoods because, you know, there's Tulane and there's Loyola and UNO and all

these kids that also weren't coming back. And there's so much of the spirit of New Orleans has to do with just the amount of people who are there because they love being there so much. So with it feeling kind of empty and maybe your neighbor didn't come back. So there's construction people from out of town living in their house and you know, generation, like my parents' generation, who just, you know, didn't have the space to really process the experience. And especially because as kids, like we just noticed such a shift in them too. And there's so many people I know that I was like, I, there's definitely a lot of pre-Katrina, after-Katrina personalities. Yeah. And did you see that? I mean, of course you had to have seen this shift in both of your parents because they're deeply resilient beings and they are so dedicated to having joyful lives.

I would say that that's actually their number one priority. I mean, my mom, when she doesn't like someone, like a friend of mine had this boyfriend that would come to visit and my mom just thought because he didn't, it wasn't like fun. And she'd literally call him Mr. When Does the Fun Begin? Because she's so like everything about her has to do with fun. So she's like, why aren't we dancing in the backyard? Why aren't we cooking? Why aren't we at a restaurant? Why aren't we going on, you know, a long walk and hearing a band?

She wants to just have fun. And my dad is someone who is so dedicated to celebration. He wants to celebrate everything. This is great. I'm doing this. My dad is also really like super fashionable and has all these one-liners. I mean, he's literally someone who will call you a drive jerky, like as an insult. You're like, are you okay? And so I think that after Katrina, what I noticed about them the most is that they didn't allow that experience to move them away from their dedication to joy. They found a way to double down. And that doesn't mean that it wasn't hard. I mean, especially my dad is an artist. I mean, you can imagine what a toll that takes on you

financially to try to survive as like an independent business owner, you know, for people buying your artwork when there are no people in the city where you sell something. And so, but I think that through that, I really learned that no matter what's going on in your life, you can still, you're still worthy of joy and there's still joy to be found even in the darkest spaces. Yeah. I mean, what an amazing, I mean, terrible way to learn the lesson. But for you to be able to see that and emerge with that concept and then be able to carry that forward in life is really powerful. Yeah, because even to know that it's like so much of, you know, we keep saying there's a thing that we say a lot is, you know, find your joy, find your joy. But dedicating yourself to joy makes it a lot easier to find actually.

And so I think that having strong examples of people who are very dedicated to their joy really made me understand that it's not just about finding it even when things are low down. It's about being so dedicated to it you can find it no matter what's happening. Yeah. Elevating it to sort of like the ultimate priority or at least one of them. Yeah. So you go from there. Fairly shortly after that, you left. Yeah, I moved to New York at 17.

What was the reason for the move to New York? So when I moved to New York, it was because when I was working in one of those clothing stores, I met this really amazing woman. She's an interior designer. Her name is Ellen Hansen. And she was walking in the store and I'm talking to her and she's like, you need to move to New York. And I was like, I really want to. And I didn't really know what I was going to do at that point because I mean, I think I knew I always wanted to live in New York, but I was such a horrible classroom learner. I just had such deep anxiety. And I, and I think, you know, whether it was because the, I found the space of where I went to high school, especially just be so hostile to, because it was very conservative

and very racist essentially. And so I was like, gosh, I just, I don't know. I was like, I just, it really, it really took a toll on me. And so I was saying, I was like, yeah, I just, I don't know. I was like, I just, it really, it really took a toll on me. And so I was like, yeah, I really want to. And she was like, you know what? There is this woman named Linda Toffee and she works at Missoni and Missoni. And she, she needs to be your mentor. She's like, you will learn so much from her. She is everything. She, you guys, you guys are just meant to be. And so she puts us on email. I think I literally like opened an email address to be put on email with her. I don't even think I had an email at the time.

Or if I had one, it must have been like my really weird screen name. I think I opened one that was like, you know, something professional sounding. And she put us on email. And I went to New York a few months later. And I remember it was snowing and I was like coming out. I mean, it was one of those like New York horror stories where like it's snowing and I'm on the train and I don't know how to get there and I'm covered in snow when I get there. And then what do you do? You're like wet. And it was like, nobody tells you really happens or that you should probably just wear like a rain coat when it's snowing like that.

And I sit in there and she's like, she was really the first person who was like, yeah, you belong here. You belong in this energy. And I think that, as I said before, as a kid, when you, especially as a young girl, they're like, you should work in fashion if you express yourself through clothes. And so I think that it was kind of one of the first stories I told myself that one later in life when I did an inventory of being like, do I want to work in fashion? Or was I just told that I should do that because I was always the kid who wore a weird outfit. And I met with her and she was the first person to really believe that I belonged in this city. And so I started interning for her and working on the weekends. And then I got my first job as an office manager, which I was so bad at,

at another fashion company called Halston. But that was the first time. And Linda was really interesting because she was the first person who was like, you need to write these things. Like she had me writing their press releases. And she's like, come over here and help me write this thing. She's like, you know, you're really good with words. And it was only even like years later that I realized that Linda always had me writing.

Did you even consider yourself a writer at that point? I look back later and I'm like, wow, I was always writing for everything I did there. And then when I went to Halston, that was really the first time I saw a female CEO. It was this woman named Bonnie. And those years were really what I call my boot camp years here because it was like being, you know, trained in what it meant to be so disciplined about your, how you spend your time or your, what I would say my craft now, because I know, I know what I do. But at the time I was like, oh, wow, you have to be so disciplined. And that's what really taught it to me because I would get there before the sun would come up. I would leave when the sun went down, I'd show up no matter what I'd be on top of all these things. And I also was unafraid of doing things I didn't know how to do because I was so focused on making sure I at least showed up to try.

And she was really the woman who instilled in me the work ethic I have now. And I'd say that probably having a strong work ethic is something I've always had since I was a kid, since I loved to go to work and be with people. But she was the one who was like, nothing you do will ever be great unless it's matched by an incredible work ethic, unless you always show up for the work. And so now I feel so grateful that I never have a problem of, you know, being too lazy to write or do or make because I know how critical it is to take my work ethic and apply it to my passions and my craft and my purpose and my community. Yeah, no doubt. I mean, so when you're doing that, when you're still sort

of in this, in the fashion space, but you're learning a lot about yourself and you're also seeing this in like this, this role model of both what's possible and also what it takes to get to a particular place. Yeah. And women in spaces that if you were in any other industry, you wouldn't really see it. So over the years, I consulted at so many companies where the owners was a woman and the president was a woman and the CEO and the CFO were all women. And so as I spent those next few years kind of consulting and doing creative direction or styling or kind of, you know, all those hats that you can wear in fashion. And in that, I picked up a paintbrush, actually, because I had this like kind of period where I was like, gosh, you know, I don't understand why I'm not happy because coming from where I come from to make the amount of money I got to make at my age and have the freedom I have and had the experience I is the ultimate luxury. Actually, luxury goods aren't the ultimate luxury. Just that is the ultimate luxury. And so I was so grateful. And I was like, how can I be in this space where I feel so thankful? I'm making more money than probably my two parents put together.

And I just couldn't understand why I wasn't feeling fulfilled. And maybe I wasn't even unhappy. I just couldn't understand why I didn't feeling fulfilled. And maybe I wasn't even unhappy. I just couldn't understand why I didn't feel good all the time or feel purposeful. And then there was this one day, and I'll never forget it because I was sitting in this restaurant talking to a friend, kind of having this conversation, but at the time, and this is maybe six years ago. And I was like, you know, I think I just realized that your girlhood dream isn't necessarily your womanhood dream. And the second you start to step into your womanhood, which I think really starts to begin in your mid-20s and maybe earlier for some people, depending on the life you've lived, you realize that, wow, there's these things like these dreams I had because I don't even know

if they were my dreams. And I wonder what my dreams are when I get to choose, when I really get to choose all of them and without them being influenced by my circumstances or my teachers or my parents or the people around me or how people framed my personality as a kid. And so in that, I spent a couple of years just really, you know, kind of doing what I call like work for Pat, like I call it like passive income. My friend actually coined that term, which I love, which is when I say that to young people a lot, because they'll be like, I want to, I want to be a writer, but I like work in this office during the day. And I was like, well, you don't have to say you work in the office because use your words to affirm where

you want to be. And, you know, someone might ask what you do, but that's not the same question as someone asking how you pay your rent. And so if what you do and who you feel like you are as a standup comedian or a writer or a designer, you know, you don't have to answer the question, like, how do I pay my rent? Which might be, I'm an office manager or I'm a receptionist. Yeah. One funds the other. It doesn't necessarily mean it defines you. Exactly. And I think that that's such an important conversation to have with young people. That's so, I agree. And so I, you know, kind of had those years of having what my kind of fueled my years of exploration.

And that's when I picked up a paintbrush and I started painting the words first. And I was like, wow, I forgot I used to paint and write and make things with my hands all the time. Because you get to this point where you're kind of, you know, directing things and you don't start to move the physical things around. And so with your own hands, I guess. And so I remember that summer I turned my entire apartment into a studio. I mean, you could not, there was not an empty wall in my whole apartment. It was so insane. And I mean, for my, I mean, my whole apartment was probably the size of this room.

And so I had this mentor at the time and I was making kind of these collages and paintings and with poems on the top. And it was, it was, it was, I thought it was really cool. But he was like, you know, the best part about your work is the words. And I was like, so are you saying the rest of it's bad? And he was like, no, but he said, if you can be fearless enough to perfect the best part of what you, what you make, there's, then you'll really grow your wings. Because the thing is,

is that often what our talent is, we're so afraid to shine in that space because that's where the failure of what we love the most exists. And he was right. The words were my favorite part. That was what everything was centered around for me. It was the part that I felt was the most to me, but I think I was afraid to see the words just as the words, because then you only have the words to look at. Right. And also if you put them out into the world and then people reject that, which is the purest expression of you, that hurts way more than if it's just a part of a whole bunch of other stuff. And so if it's on top of a, if the words are on top of a photograph and then, I mean, have paint going through it and have all these things happening, then you feel a lot safer in that. And that was really the best advice of my career.

And so for a year, I got this little pink typewriter and I traveled the world with it. So I took it to Morocco. I took it to Paris. I took it to Mexico and spent a lot of time in Big Sur and gosh, I don't even know where else. What were you trying to accomplish? I wanted to just work on the words. And so I, and, and I also wanted to be able to have them physically in my hands right away so that I could have them in this one space. Cause the thing is, even if you type something on your phone, it always leads into something else, even if it just leads into a new part of your screen.

And so the coolest thing about working on a typewriter is you pull it out and there it is. And nothing else is on the page but what's on the page. And so you can have so much time to really look at why you think that those thoughts or feelings go together. And then about at the end of that year, I remember I put the first kind of grouping of my words on Instagram. And it was really interesting because I was like the last person to get Instagram of all my friends. And they were also disappointed because they were like, why are you doing this? Because they'd already seen what the app does to your life as far as being the time suck or driving you crazy.

They're like, you were the one who resisted. Yeah. And you were the one who we thought was, you know. Right. Like with your hands, physical, creation. And we thought you were so cool. And so, and even to this day, people are like, how do you know what to say or why do you decide to say? And I said, and I always say that I spent enough time with myself to really know myself so well that I knew what have this fatigue of why do I even express or do or whatever. But if you really get to know yourself and can ask yourself who you are and

why you think what you think and why you write what you write or you make what you make, then of course it should be in a public space to be able to create community with others. But I mean, also there's, you knew yourself well enough to, and you respected yourself enough to go deep into your thoughts and develop your thoughts. But at the same time, you also were willing to say no to, you know, probably countless potential forms of expression in order to channel it into the one, this one thing and take a bet on yourself that this was in fact, at least for now, maybe not forever, but at least for this moment in this season of your life, it's words. And you

are willing to go all in on that on a level where you hone your craft so much faster rather than just saying, let me go really broad. And I think that's something that a lot of people were so filled with, you know, the classic FOMO, like, well, but what if it's really this? Or what if it's really this? Let me just push all these different things forward at once. And then we, like you were saying, then we want to hide behind like the amalgam of potential things because we can always say, well, that wasn't quite right or that wasn't quite right. Rather than just saying, let me just pick one thing and really develop it and express

it and put it out into the world. And like the level of insight and wisdom and craft that happens when we do that accelerates so dramatically. But you've got to be brave. And you were. Yeah. And you've also got to be excited to not have the answer for your work. You have to be excited to watch it change and evolve and grow. So it's not, you know, I didn't feel braver such a huge spirit of flexibility to it, where I was always excited about learning from my do it. And you also have to have the bravery and open-mindedness to know that whatever it is could turn into something else.

And for me, I mean, probably my biggest obsession is our ability to change and shift. And I'm always willing to jump on the boat for change and shift. And I think that that actually has been so much more about why I've been able to have the trajectory in my career I have in a kind of semi-quickly is because I never think that this is who I am. So this is what I write, and this is what I do. I was like, yeah, this is who I am. Like, I know who I am. I know my core, but I'm so interested in the unknown and what could be and, and, and, and the parts of my mind that I could, you know, tap into that I never had before. You know, I was listening to this meditation one day and the woman said, um, you know, you don't, there's not new stuff so much as we just start taking blankets off of stuff, off of the old stuff inside of our minds and our hearts.

And so I'm always so interested in what the next thing that will be uncovered within me is so that I, you know, I don't feel like I ever have to be the, you know, this fixed version of myself, I can be, you know, this kind of, I know my core values and principles as a human being. And as a creative, I am so excited for how we are all able to constantly evolve. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing to be, to have that sense of openness, you know, because all possibility lies in the unknown, you know, and, but we're terrified to step into that space. And we don't realize that when we don't step into that space, we close the door to possibility without us intending that to be the outcome. But in fact, that's what we do. And the work doesn't get better. So when we decide that it's great, and then we decide that this is the thing we do, it doesn't actually get better. And even when I look at my work from four years ago, I see myself being able to step more confidently into my own voice. And I see that

the thoughts and feelings evolve in such a more impactful way for me and for my audience. But I can't imagine that if who I decided to be when I put up my first billboard or posted my first piece of work on Instagram, I decided like, okay, here's my thing. And I do think that a lot of why we get so obsessed with becoming this fixed thing is because we've become this culture that is so addicted to saying like, I'm a brand or is this on brand or this is not my brand. And I was recently telling my business partner that I was like, I never want to hear the words or say the word on brand again. I was like, it's either on mission or not. I was like, brand is a concept that instantly divorces you from the thing you do.

And in order to do your work authentically as a creative, you have to live it. It can't be a thing that exists outside of who you are. And a brand is also this like fixed thing. It's a stamp, you know, a mission gets to grow, gets to be more inclusive, gets to diversify, gets to get bigger, gets to get wider, gets to reach one goal and then open up to a whole new set of goals. That's something that runs through your lifetime. And so I think a lot of it has to do with people, you know, we really have to encourage the next generation to, you know, be on mission instead of on brand.

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Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. I had a chance a couple years ago to sit down with Milton Glaser. A lot of people won't know his name, but they'll know he created the most ripped off logo in the history of logos, I Heart NY. And has also was found in New York Magazine and has created thousands of posters and illustrations, everything from protest art to all sorts of design stuff. And it was interesting when I sat down with him, there's some really interesting parallels with you. He shared a story with me how he said, I knew what I was here to do when I was six, similar to you.

And similar to you also, he said he basically started drawing. And what he saw was that he loved it. Something happened to him and people responded to it. He said, I didn't know I was going to be a designer at that point. And he's changed so many times over the years. But he knew his mission. And he knew that he was there to make things that moved people. And over the course of his astonishing career, he's allowed himself,

not only allowed himself, but he's very intentionally done exactly what you say, which is that he never wanted to be known for a quote style, which is the same thing you're talking about. He's like, I don't want people to hire me for like the style, like the glazer style, because I don't want to keep doing that. I want to keep growing. And I want people to hire me because they know that my lens, my values, my process will give them something interesting and different and trust in that. Yeah, you know, I often write that home is the place where your exhale feels best. And it was so funny because it took me 20 years to get there from being six at poetry camp, but I will never forget the days of writing intentionally again and being like,

wow, could I be really writing poetry? Could this be something? And I remember thinking how good that exhale felt. And I was like, wait, am I home again? You know? And I think that if you can create from a place where you feel truly at home and feel a true sense of belonging, then everything you do from that place with that work will be magical and miraculous. It is kind of amazing that we spend so much of our lives trying to figure out how to get back to that feeling that we had before sort of like the ego identity told us everything was wrong or different.

Well, you know, sometimes we have to do that so that we know why it feels so good to be there. So I think that's a hard part there is, you know, if we got to just live in that space our whole lives, we'd be probably a little spoiled and wouldn't know how to appreciate it. Yeah. And I mean, also it's the experiences that happen in the middle that teach us. I mean, you know, there is, we don't know joy if we don't know sorrow. Like we, we don't know one thing which we consider good or desirable or yummy, unless we have something to contrast it against. And we like to think we, you know, we want to just go through life and everything is happening and everything works out. And, but the truth is, and there's actually

interesting research around this now that the happiest, the people that are most satisfied with their lives are not the people where they basically are just happy all the time and everything always goes their way. It's the people that have the full spectrum of emotion and experience that somehow end up in this place because that's what lets you understand when things are good is because you have the contrast. Well, and I think being able to know the journey and the triumph of finding happiness through sorrow is actually what is so character building. And I think that's actually what creates a sense of built-in happiness that we can harness. And so it's not even just about because I know this, I know this, you know, because of the polarity. It's also because I've been here and I worked my way here. Oh my gosh, I know how to get there.

And the set of tools along that road from getting from sorrow to a place of joy and happiness, the tools that we cultivate, the friendships and the relationships and the people we find in that space, in that road, in that journey, are the things that transform us and truly empower us. So as we sit here today, you have continued on this road.

You have taken your words and put them increasingly out into the world, developed your voice, developed your craft, developed your lens, developed your out into the world, developed your voice, developed your craft, developed your lens, developed your experience in the world, and also invested yourself in being an artist, in being an activist, in taking on causes beyond your own individual expression, but also using your gifts and your voice to stand for change. Tell me how that sort of becomes a bigger part of your life. You know, I think that as my following grew, I realized I had a kind of awakening one day where I was like, you know, I can't, there's no way I could have this amount of eyeballs on what I do. And this is when I had like 10,000 people following me, maybe if that. And I remember thinking, I can't have this amount of eyeballs on what I do and not be really responsible and be not wanted. It's kind of

like I wanted to be responsible to them and their feelings and their journey but also really responsible to our planet and our country and our world and what goes on and so I knew that I couldn't just say beautiful things I had to also make sure that I said useful things I also wanted to make sure that I said things that made people feel like they could change what's going on around them or kind of be that blanket on a really cold day. And so I think that it was definitely one of those things where in recognizing that if you have that type of power, or even if you have 25 eyeballs on what you do, there is a responsibility that comes with that. And there was just no way that I was going to, you know, watch my audience grow and have more and more eyes on my work and not really say something. How do you decide to sort of like make the early steps into that? As a daily practice or in the early days of it?

Well, I guess both to a certain extent. I mean, because your focus wasn't that, and yet you realize, okay, so. Well, so the thing is, is that, you know, I think that whether it would have happened, I would have done it or not, because of the interesting about online space is that people can take your work and contextualize it however they want. And so it ends up happening. I always feel so funny because I'll be on, I end up on so many, you know, panels or environments that are so politically charged. And if you would have asked me as a kid, if I ever thought I would be politically active, I would have said no. I just didn't, you know, like, I didn't, I don't, I just, I don't know, I just would have said no. I think I was too, you know,

as a, even in my early 20s, I think I was too kind of in my own bubble or in my own pain or in my own wonder to really even be outside of myself enough to be active in the world in that way. And I'm so sad that I was during that time, which is why I work so hard now to be with young girls, to really instill being an active citizen in them as an early part of their lives, because it would have drastically changed my personal joy and happiness and fulfillment if I would have done, if I would have been like that as a teenager. But I, I'm trying to think of really how to describe it. I, I think that, you know, there's this woman, her name's Dr. Terri Trent. And we've had her on the podcast. Isn't she the best? Oh my gosh,

she's incredible. And so I interviewed her before the podcast. Isn't she the best? Oh my gosh, she's incredible. And so I interviewed her before too at the Lower East Side Girls Club, which is an organization I do a lot of work with. She said to me, she said, she's like, whenever someone's asking for what they should do in the world, I bet she said this on the podcast. She said, just ask yourself what breaks your heart. And so I really started with the things that were breaking my heart. And I really spoke from an authentic place there. And I realized that even if I wouldn't have, which I was saying earlier, is that I don't have the power to contextualize the work. So when my work, you know, when I was saying it's kind of funny that I end up in these political spheres because I would have never imagined that. And even when

I write today, I don't, I never write with the intention to be political. You know, I write with the intention to be a community leader and a community builder and a community organizer. But I never think about, I don't feel like I have a politic hat I put on. But I realize that it's because people were taking the work and contextualizing it into political affairs. And so I think it would have ended up in that space even if I wouldn't have decided to write explicitly to that space. But I did decide to write into that space as well. And not every single day either. And I also, what was important to me was to maintain the feeling in my work, which is the most important to me, which is that people always have the space to do what they need to do with the work, not what I

want them to do with the work. So even with the things that I address, I never zero in too much on one thing. I never condemn one particular person. I always leave space for a range of people to feel capable of being inspired to do something about things that I feel are important. And that's why my work maintains a identity of being pretty minimal and spacious. Yeah, and yet at the same time, there's strength in it. And people can stand behind it for whatever granular expression they want to sort of, like you said, contextualize it, you know, around. But, you know, that's the, that's the, you know, to me, I think that's the goal. I mean,

I had this one, I had this one amazing young girl walk up to me. I had a signing at the 92Y a couple of weeks ago, a month ago. You know, when you're traveling so much, you're like, everything's yesterday. And she walked up to me and I've never told this story, but she walked up to me and she was so nervous. And I was like, why are you so nervous? I was, you know, calm down. It's okay. And, and it wasn't a nervous, like, I'm so excited to meet you nervous. It was, it was, it was something beyond that. And she was like, I've had this thing. And she was a young girl. She had to be in her very early 20s, maybe 21, 22.

And she said, I'm so nervous because there's this thing I really need to tell you. And I said, okay. And she said, I lost my dad and my three uncles, or three uncles, yeah, in 9-11. And she said, and because I was one of the kids of someone who lost so many people, I got asked to be in, participate in the case against the people that they found responsible for 9-11 who are sitting in Guantanamo Bay right now, be a part of charging them with the death penalty, essentially. And they needed an answer and I didn't know what to say. And I just, I couldn't decide. I couldn't decide. I couldn't make the decision.

She said, one day, right before I needed to decide, I open up your book and I see this page that says real leaders lead with love. And she's like, in that moment, I knew that the answer to violence was not more violence. The answer to death was not more death. And I was like, in that moment, I knew that the answer to violence was not more violence. The answer to death was not more death. And I had to lead with love. And I said, I wouldn't be a part of being responsible for these people dying too. And I was so, I mean, I went home and pretty much hysterically cried that night. And, and she's an amazing, amazing young girl who's creating these trauma networks for kids who have all experienced major traumas from these types of experiences all around the world. And she's making a documentary on it. I mean, she's amazing. And

she's really channeling her pain and loss into beautiful acts of love. And it is truly amazing. I follow her on Instagram now, so I'm pretty deep in her life. But I remember thinking that, you know, I was so grateful that the one thing that is always important to me when I write is to leave space for people to do what they need to do with the work. Because, you know, it's so easy to overwrite and oversay and overspeak on something and go so, get so specific because we really do have a desire to control people. And even the people who are trying to help people are like, because if you do this, I know it'll help. And you're like, you can't get everywhere by like diagnosing and pressuring and really trying to force people even into a good thing, you know, because people, you could, people might feel better, but if they can empower themselves to, to come to their own reasons why they feel better, because they had this little catalyst or this little mantra, or then that is something that

sustains them, you know, because if the idea of the words, real leaders lead with love is something you can repeat in your life, your entire life and apply it to so many circumstances. Whereas if I would have written an entire chapter on all the specific ways that the best leaders in the world have led with love. Right. This is how you lead. Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting. between planting a seed of something real and not creating such a constrained container

that you let people step into it and own it in the way that feels right for them. When Dr. Trent asked you that question or shared with you what breaks your heart, how did you answer that in the context of your life? You know, I told her that for me what breaks my heart is there are too many people who just never even had a chance to reach their potential. And they never even had a, you know, chance to live their full life or even live to the end of their life naturally. And whether that's because of the hostile environments or impoverished environments or the lack of social safety nets that are available to them or the violence around them

or the hostility of even what we're doing to our planet. And to me, there's so much work to do so that everyone even has a chance to participate and make the world a better place and make their life a better life for themselves and their family and their kids. And we have so much to do on so many sides of so many fences in order to make that possible for people with race, with gender, with equity. And so for me, it's really as simple as how do we lead and live lives where everyone gets a chance? And, you know, one of the things that I love about when I go to the Lower East Side Girls Club, which is where I was with Dr. Trent, is that when you walk into this incredible space, it is the space that even, you know, the people who are

like celebrities in California would send their kids. And you just sit there thinking to yourself, why have we decided that like every single young girl in the world doesn't have this type of space, safe space to go to after school, to, you know, learn about being an entrepreneur or learn about STEM or learn about fashion design or learn about how to be a radio host or express themselves in however they want and have a safe space to talk about what they go through in state-of-the-art facilities and in beautiful spaces with rooftop gardens and cooking classes of vegetarian meals, you know. And it really breaks my heart that we are living in a world where we've decided that some people deserve to grow up with this and some people deserve to grow up with that.

Or that's just their lot in life, you know. Like it's just the lot in life of, you know, that black men feel, have to feel endangered when they're in their own car driving down the street. We've just decided that, oh, that's just the way it is. We've just decided now that our children need to go to school with clear backpacks because we've just, and into gun drills. We've just decided that that's their new lot in life. There's something wrong there. Why do our, why do our children deserve that? Why have we decided that these children deserve that? Why do we decide that the children who grow up in the South side of Chicago deserve to go to schools that look like prisons? And then we

were surprised when they end up in prison. That is where so much of our work is on so many levels right now. And it feels like not necessarily for good reasons, but for reasons. There's a level of energy and attention and awareness around these things that is mobilizing people in a different way. And I hope that what that leads to is a real and genuine change and possibility and safety and for everyone, for everyone. So we're hanging out and you and I could probably talk for a long time. I know. I'm like, what time is it?

I have a book signing tonight. It's like, I want to get you on your way. I know, I could be here all day. Yeah, you've got this beautiful book out now called Heart Talk, which is really, I guess it feels like it's a compilation of so much of your work over the years from the artistic side,

from your lettering to the printing, to the words themselves and the thoughts and the poetry. Yeah, but at least 85% of it was written just for the book. So there's very little of it that is a compilation of past work. I didn't realize that. Yeah. Wow. Only about 15%. Yeah. What is it like for you to sit down and create something like this and then put it out into the world? Well, as you know from writing a book yourself, writing a book is a special kind of hell. Uh-huh. And I think that what the experience taught me, my biggest takeaway from writing this book

was learning how to collaborate with myself, which is something I'd never, as much time as I'd spent intimately getting to know myself or writing or being, when you create something that is, you know, so many of your ideas and there's such a flow to it and there's such an intention behind why everything is next to each other or why this is being said or why this isn't said or why I'm deciding to say this at this time and not at this time, you know, there's so much kind of conversation and collaboration you have to have with yourself. And so when I'd have these days of, you know, writing for a week and then taking a week away from it and then looking

through that work and having to scratch out and edit and change and shift. And I really think that my, and at the time I was so stressed about it. And I remember telling a friend of mine, I was like, God, you know, I've just, I never realized like how intense it would be to have to, you know, collaborate with myself. And the first thing she said to me was, wow, learning how to collaborate with yourself, what a blessing. And it was so funny because I realized in that moment, I was like, gosh, we just really at all times have the ability to reframe a complaint and turn it into a blessing. It's like, thank you. Yeah. I was like, damn it. You're right. It's like, we need to put that in the book. I'm like the last page somewhere. Could I ask you to read something from it as we wrap? Is there anything that you feel like? Do you have one you want me to read? Let me see. I'm looking at the book right now and Cleo can see it's got like multicolored tabs all over the place.

I love when I see that. There's just so many beautiful thoughts. I kind of like this one. How do you feel about that? Yeah, sure. This one is called Love Never Lies. Shame never tells the truth. It tells you you are not good enough.

The truth is you are. It tells you you have to be perfect. The truth is you are. It tells you you have to be perfect. The truth is you don't. It tells you your mistakes are fatal wounds. The truth is you heal. It tells you everything has fallen apart. The truth is you will rebuild. It tells you that you will stay sunken in despair. The truth is you will rise. It tells you you failed, you lost, and you got hurt. The truth is you learned what to do next time. You gained knowledge from your knockdown, and you found out just how strong you are. It says you will never make it. The truth is, keep going. For shame said you would

never survive. And the truth is, you are still here. So beautiful. Thank you. I haven't read that one in a while. It made me a little weepy. I might have to read it later tonight too. So coming full circle, as we sit here in Good Life Project, if I offer out the phrase to live a good life, what comes up for you? Be good to as many people as possible. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes. And while you're at it, if you've ever asked yourself, what should I do with my life? We have created a really cool online assessment that will help you discover the source code for the work that you're here to do. You can find it at sparkotype.com. That's S-P-A-R-K-E-T-Y-P-E.com.

Or just click the link in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, be sure to click on the subscribe button in your listening app so you never miss an episode. And then share, share the love. If there's something that you've heard in this episode that you would love to turn into a conversation, share it with people and have that conversation. Because when ideas become conversations

that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold. See you next time. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.

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