Good Life Project - Courtney Carver: On Simplicity, M.S., Love and Stress.

Episode Date: December 18, 2017

Courtney Carver believes simplicity is the way back to love. But, her wake-up call was a diagnosis of MS.A mom, wife, and creative pro, Courtney Carver was building a living in the advertising industry, and a beautiful family. Then, in 2006, everything changed. She was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis. Carver went on a journey to figure out how to reclaim as much of life as she could and identify what made things better or worse.Stress, she discovered, made everything worse. So, she was determined to eliminate as much stress as possible for a happier, healthier life. Along the way, she made another discovery, the common thread in every "de-stressing" change she made from diet to debt was simplicity.So, she began to simplify every aspect of her life, and the change not just emotionally, but physically was remarkable. Simplicity was literally changing her body, her symptoms, her relationships and life. She began sharing her experiments on a blog, bemorewithless.com, that eventually took off, launched minimalist fashion challenge called Project 333 and the Tiny Wardrobe Tour to share her stories of living with less and connect with like-hearted people.Her new book, Soulful Simplicity Carver shares this moving journey.In today's conversation, we explore Courtney's early interests, including a love or art and photography, how she made her way into the "business" side of advertising and built a career. We dive into the changes in her body and the moment that led her to the doctor where she'd learn she had MS. We talk about how she "broke the news" to her husband and daughter, stumbled upon the connection between stuff and stress, then rebuilt her life and living around the idea of simplicity as a path to ease, love and soul.+--------------------+We're grateful for the kind support of: ShipStation: Manage and ship your orders. FREE for 30 days, plus a bonus. Visit ShipStation.com, click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and type in GOODLIFE.Tunein: Catch all-new episodes of some of your favorite podcasts early with TuneIn First Play? Download the free TuneIn app now.Videoblocks:  Go to videoblocks.com/goodlife to get all the stock video, audio, and images you can imagine for just $149. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

For me, it's not even about having a simple life or being a minimalist. I just don't care about either of those things. It's about having a life. Having a life. That's what I wanted from all of this, and it's exactly what I got. Back in 2006, Courtney Carver was living the life. She was rising up the ladder in the world of advertising, building a career and a life with all the things she wanted until she started experiencing physical symptoms. Eventually that led to a diagnosis of MS, multiple sclerosis. And that

led to a deep and profound re-examination of her entire life. What she realized really quickly was that stress was a massive contributing factor to her experience of symptoms. And the next big leap that she made was that stuff, the accumulation of things, actually what she thought was sort of, you know, like the thing that you aspire to get through success was actually creating a massive amount of stress in her life. So she became an evangelist for simplification. And through her own process of re-examining and simplifying, she was able to completely change her life and also completely change the experience of symptoms of MS. That led her to become a really powerful evangelist for simplification. She has a new book out now

called Soulful Simplicity, which details her journey. And we dive into this, into the moments of awakening, into the really tough conversations and decisions that she made along the way. And how that changed not only her, but her relationships as a partner in life, as a parent, as a professional contributing to the world. And the way that it's changed her body and her health in major ways. Really excited to share this conversation. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. It's so fun to be hanging out with you. We've known each other for a number of years now. Flight Risk. also. Let's take a step back in time. So hanging out today, you're known as somebody with a huge focus on simplicity. You've run these really interesting lifestyle experiments, now an author. This was not the defining ethos of your life, you know, for the better part of your life. No, I definitely didn't live a simple life or an intentional life for a long time. I lived a very hurried, busy, crazy, how are we going to make ends meet kind of life. And it's almost hard for me to look back because,

or not to look back, but to remember exactly how it felt because things are so different for me today that I've taken the last decade plus and gotten rid of a lot of stress and distraction and other things for a healthier, happier life to keep it in the simplest terms. Yeah. So let's fill in the before picture a little bit. You grew up in the Northeast. I did. I was actually born in the Southeast in Savannah, Georgia, and then grew up in New England in Connecticut and New Hampshire. What type of kid were you? I was the kind of kid that played outside until it was dark and I could hear my mother calling for dinner. So lots of hide and seek and marbles and creative stuff too. So dance and art. I loved to play as a kid and make things and be adventurous. Yeah. That sounds like as a little kid. Right. So what is there a different big kid version? Yeah. I think I kind of grew out of that. I got serious at some point in my life and let a lot of that slide. I actually went to school for art

in college. And before I was even out of college, I realized that I was so deep in debt and I just had to get practical quickly. And so instead of thinking about the play that I wanted to do or the life that I wanted to live, I was thinking about the money I had to make, the ends I had to meet, and the responsible adult that I was supposed to be. What was going through your head when you went to art school? What did you think, then what were you going to do coming out of school? What was the aspiration? I went to school for photography. I am still passionate about photography and have even dipped back into it, which has been great. And I'm doing another dip right now, as a matter of fact, but that was

it for me. I really wanted to be a fine art photographer, not, you know, photographing weddings or doing portraits or things like that, but just really making pictures that made people smile, think, and perhaps laugh a little bit. When was the realization? I mean, when did the light go on where you said, huh, school, cost of school, debt, the thing that I'm like working so hard to do, I might not actually be able to do. It didn't really, there wasn't like a light bulb moment because I put myself in a position where I was deep in debt. So it wasn't just school loans, but before I ever took a college course,

I had my first credit card and I used it like it was my job. I remember like the tables being set up in the campus quad, like during orientation freshman year. Exactly, it was so appealing. And then all of a sudden, it felt like this new lease on life where I could buy whatever I wanted. I could treat my friends to dinner and drinks. And it wasn't long before I was using one credit card to pay for the other credit card payments. Not a great plan. I wouldn't recommend it. So it didn't take long before I was

in heaps of debt. And, you know, leaving school to become a photographer didn't really feel like the smartest path if I wanted to make money. So I went into sales. And that felt like the easiest way to control my income and to start making a dent in my debt. Although that dream disappeared really fast because I started still outspending what I was making. Yeah. Isn't that like, it's like the paradigm. It's like no matter what you earn, so many of us, we just match whatever our quality of life, not quality of life, whatever our spending is. If we double what we earn, then we spend double plus 10%. Yeah. It was this crazy vicious circle because I was working so hard to make this money.

And then I felt like I deserved really nice things to reward myself for working so hard. And I just kept going and going. And at some point, I just felt like, well, you're never going to be out of debt. Your credit score is in the toilet. You may as well just keep on living the dream. What were you selling? Oh, let's see. I sold lots of things. I started by selling drinks. I was a bartender and working for tips. So waiting tables, bartending. And then I moved into print sales. So commercial print and finally advertising sales. So in the back of your head, are you even thinking long-term or are you just kind of

like day to day? Like I I'm in the grind and I need to do whatever I need to do to kind of get through the next day, week, month. Yeah. At first I wasn't thinking long-term at all because it was too depressing to go there. I didn't really think that I would ever be without a loan payment, you know, a school loan payment, a car loan payment, credit card payment. It was all consuming. I mean, it was to the point where I had debt collectors calling me and would be nervous wondering if I would be able to pay the rent. So I didn't look too far ahead. I didn't have a lot of long-term goals and I just kept going and kind of going, going, going. And then I would make myself busier and more distracted. So I didn't really have to think about it.

Yeah. What's this doing to your state of mind the whole time? My state of mind on one level, probably on the deepest level, was pretty sad because I had so many hopes and dreams and was excited about the things I would do in my life. And I knew I was making a lot of compromises. I was compromising by doing work that I didn't enjoy. I was compromising by doing all the things I did to distract myself from the realities. her, you know, I'll be there at a certain time and not being there saying just a minute and it would really be an hour, like all these little compromises. So I think I was sad, but I did a really good job of pretending to be happy and to prove to people that everything was cool.

Yeah. I was really good at that. Yeah. I think so many of us are, right? I think it's like what you're describing is kind of like the modern day grown up life. It's sort of like, hey, listen, this is the thing that you do. Once you hit a certain age, if you have a family, if you make those choices, then you've got to be responsible and you don't come first anymore and passion and purpose and all these things take a backseat to just stepping up and doing the grind and serving, you know, the things that adults build, like a life of security and structure and all this stuff. It sounds like you were sacrificing in the name of that.

But behind the scenes, the thing that you were trying to build with it wasn't even happening. Nothing was happening. Yeah. Really. It was it was was just this daily process of getting by in all aspects, whether it be money or time or health, state of mind. I was completely disconnected from who I was, what I wanted. And I wanted something else, but I didn't know how to ask for help or how to get there. Did photography come back into your mind at all? Or did you basically just say that's over? Photography always kind of hovered and I would take pictures and feel a little lift. And then the film would just sit in my camera for ages or something like that.

This was the day of film, right? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm dating myself now. Yes, film. It actually took me a long time to go from film to digital. But I kept taking pictures. And I always really appreciated photography. And I mean, I'm not saying my life was all doom and gloom. I did some really fun, awesome things and had some very high highs along the way. But it was always that underlying, what am I doing? What is this life I've created for myself? And I don't even think I used those words because I thought this is what life gave me. I didn't know I made it for a long time. Yeah, it's such a common thing, I think. So you're living this life, sort of

building along a trajectory, and you get a huge wake-up call. I got a huge wake-up call. And it's funny because all of those years that I didn't think I made the mess, in an instant, I knew I could clean it up. And maybe I didn't completely know in that instant, but it definitely unfolded pretty quickly. So in 2006, I was still in a lot of debt, very busy selling, trying to look the part of a successful salesperson and just running crazy in life. And I got sick. I had vertigo and some fatigue and some other symptoms, unexplained symptoms, all things that I had had before, but never all at the same time. And I went to the doctor and the doctor said, well, it looks like you have an ear infection. And I thought, well, that sounds about right. And at the time of all of this crazy, you know, not feeling well, I was training for the MS 150, which is a cycling event in Utah to raise money for him, for research for him.

And I couldn't ride my bike. I mean, I was too dizzy to practically walk. I was holding on to the walls a lot of the time. So there I was, you know, couldn't get on my bike, wanting to train for this ride. And I didn't know what to do. So I kept doing more tests and more tests, ended up doing a lot of neurological testing. And by July 2006, I had missed the MS ride and had my very own MS diagnosis. So really ironic timing, very scary. But within, I would say,

less than a month, I knew I was going to change everything about my life. How did you actually find out that MS was a diagnosis? So this was pretty interesting. I was at work in my cubicle and I was wondering, you know, what was going on with my test results, because I had had a lot of inconclusive tests, MRIs, and some different vision testing. And that's pretty common. I mean, from what I know, it's, it's common to have a lot of different tests and also misdiagnosis with MS, right? Definitely. Most MS patients are 10 years into it before they're ever diagnosed. And I think I was a good 10 years as well, because looking back, I can see I dismissed so many of the symptoms to, you know, I had a bad day or I pulled a muscle or pinched a nerve.

They're very easy. The milder symptoms are very easy to dismiss. And I finally had a spinal tap to determine, you know, this is a very conclusive test to determine what it was. And I called to see about my test results. And the nurse answered the call and said, Oh, I've got your results right here. Yeah, no MS. Like, wow, what do you think we should do? And she said, I don't know, we should just take a wait and see approach. And she said, I can't believe they didn't call you with these results, you know, a week ago. And I said, oh, well, I just took the test a few days ago. And she said, oh, let me call you back. In that moment, I kind of knew what was coming. And she called back and said, oh, yeah, you have MS.

Just matter of fact. Matter of fact. Like she delivers that news all the time. And I remember just sitting in my cubicle thinking, don't cry, don't cry, don't cry. You're in the office, keep it together. And it was all I could do to get out into my car and just cry all the way home.

And because you'd been working also in an office where the boss, I mean, that was the whole thing. And because you'd been working also in an office where the boss, I mean, that was the whole thing you were training for this ride. So you'd sort of seen, I guess, every single day sort of how this was affecting one person who, you know, was close with you on a daily basis. Yeah. I mean, the owner of our company was really my face of MS. He had had it for 30 plus years when I was working there and had been in a wheelchair for many years. And they were really, you know, great supporters, the owners of this company when I was diagnosed and were able to point me in a lot of great directions in terms

of resources. But initially all I knew about MS was my boss's journey. And that was terrifying to me. And I'm guessing if you go to like, you know, the online information gods and start googling, especially in 2006. Scary. It's terrifying. I mean, even today, if you were to check books out of the library, which is what I did, you're getting information that is perhaps 10 or 20 years old. And I'm going to get the timing off here, but I think 30 years ago, there weren't the medications that are available now. It's been only in the past few years that lifestyle has, people are finally talking about the fact that lifestyle plays a role in MS and many other diseases that we've kind of dismissed that. So yeah, it was terrifying because all I saw were,

you know, what could happen immediately, not what can I do? Yeah, I had really, really, really early exposure to it when I was a very little kid, actually, sort of like the family down the block who had like our age. The dad got MS when he was, I guess, in his late 20s and stayed home. The mom was a nurse and they kept him home. And for the entire later part of his life, he was completely immobilized, sort of on a lounge chair. He just wanted to be in the house where he could see the kids running around, but wasn't capable of moving or interacting anyway. So that was always, that image has stayed with me my whole life.

And I realized the landscape has changed dramatically. There's been a ton of research, like you're saying, but it's that impression, like that image of him in that, like I can paint the scene for you because I remember even as a little kid, just kind of thinking, wow, it was just so horrifying. It has changed so much. But there's still, that's one thing that's so interesting about MS is that almost everyone experiences it differently. So it's really hard to compare or have any type of real picture of what you might experience. But for me, I just really needed to see that people were living well with MS and I wanted to connect with them to figure out how can I do this? How can I incorporate this into my life? You know, what are my options?

I have to do this now or else I'm going to go in the other direction fast. Yeah. What's happening in your personal life at this time? My personal life was actually great. Maybe we have to back up and then move forward. But I was married in my early 20s and divorced in my late 20s. And in my early 30s, met my husband, who now we've been married, gosh, I'm going to get this wrong, 11 or 12 years. We can always edit and post if it's up. And I had just married my husband, Mark, and we had been dating for six years. We dated for a

long time, mostly because of my daughter, Bailey. We really wanted to take things slow and get to know each other and fall in love. And that's what happened. And it's hard for me to talk about still to think about that because we were, you know, just married the year before and we had moved out to Utah from the East Coast and were so excited to hike in the Wasatch Mountains and do all of the crazy adventurous things that Utah has to offer. for me and not just for my own health, but I felt like I'm going to hold back my husband and my family and I'm not going to be able to hike. I might not even be able to walk. All these fears were going through my head. And so as it felt like the tides were turning for me and things were getting better and better, all of a sudden they came to a full stop and that's when I realized things had to change. Yeah. You learned when you were at work during the day.

How did Mark and Bailey learn? Leave it to you to ask me the most challenging questions. So Mark knew what was going on the whole time as I was going to the doctor time as I was, you know, going to the doctor and maybe Bailey knew in the beginning that I had vertigo because I had had it before. I didn't really think it was a big deal, but she was 10 or 11 and I didn't really share too much with her about what I was going through because I didn't want to scare her before I knew, but Mark knew the whole time. And so,

you know, as I was diagnosed, he knew within moments of that, I may have waited until he came home that night to tell him as did the adults in my family, but no one else knew. I hadn't shared with any friends or colleagues or anyone else yet. And I knew I had to tell Bailey and I didn't want to tell her because we are so

close. And I just did not want her to be worried for me or afraid. And I didn't want to, I just wanted to give her a good life. And I didn't want to disrupt that with my stuff, but I knew she'd find out. And so I took her out for ice cream to tell her, which thinking back, that sounds kind of crazy, but I really wanted to take her to a place that in my mind, I thought it would soften the blow like ice cream. That makes everything better. Right. And when I started to tell her, I asked her, I said, you know how I've been going to the doctor, how I had that vertigo? And she said, yeah. And I said, well, I want to tell you something, but I don't want you to be scared. And now I don't do that anymore. I don't talk about what I'm going to say before I say it, because that's just the worst thing you can do to someone.

And she knew before I even said the words, but I told her I have MS. And before I could say anything else, she ran out of the restaurant, the ice cream store and into the car. And I followed her out and I just hugged her and I told her that we were going to be OK and that we would figure it out. And I just let her cry. And we drove home. I drove home and we got back and went in And I just let her cry. And we drove home, I drove home, and we got back and went in her bed and climbed in bed. And we just talked for a long time until we both fell asleep, actually. And the next day I woke up and I felt better. I felt like I've got this, I can do

this. I'm going to do this for her, for me, for our family, and just reminded her that this is going to be the new normal for a little bit, but then it's going to be like it used to be. And it was. Did you genuinely feel like you got it? I did. In that moment, I felt like I've got this. And I'm not going to say there weren't times after that where I felt like I don't got this at all. But for the most part, I really did. I thought there is hope here. And there have been some scary moments. But since that moment, even until today, not knowing what will happen tomorrow, I know I've got this. Yeah. I mean, I would imagine that's such a big part of just the whole process of healing, living with. It's just uncertainty. And look, we all have perpetual uncertainty, but this is different. And as a general rule, none of us, we don't move through life studying and learning how to equip ourselves to live in that space of profound uncertainty. That's got to be a big part of your journey, I guess. great about it is that it makes a lot of the other uncertain things way less important.

The things that I used to worry about, I just let it go. I mean, it wasn't even, and I'm trying to think of a specific example, but even though I was still having a lot of, you know, money issues and all kinds of other things, at least for those first few months, I let that go completely and just decided to focus on me. I had permission to say nothing else matters right now. My only job is to figure out how to be well physically. I wasn't even thinking about the mental game yet. It was just how am I going to be well physically? What can I do to take better care of myself? What do I have to do to live well with this disease? What really matters right now? Yeah. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot.

Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. So you travel down, you know, to a certain extent, a traditional path of, you know, like, okay, so now from a medical standpoint, what do we do? What are the available treatments and taking that path, but you made like another connection, which kind of boggles my mind. And I've always been curious how, how deliberate this was, and how quickly this happened. It seems like you saw this axis between stuff, stress, and symptoms.

Yeah, that didn't occur to me until much later. The stress did. I knew the stress was a big deal from the get-go, just from the research I had done. And I knew it came from all directions. So the stress from the food I was eating, the stress from the lifestyle I was living, you know, any kind of stress was potentially debilitating for me and for most people, I think. stuff connection together or the simplicity element of any of this until it's probably a good year, even though I had started, you know, clearing out clutter and stuff. I didn't realize how stressful it was. I didn't know I was simplifying my life. I just knew I was getting rid of stress and I wanted room. I wanted space. I wanted a place to, to heal. So what are the first steps that you took along that? Like when did the light start to go on? Like there was everything that's connected here. Well, I realized that it was the thread of every

change that I made was simplicity. You know, I simplified my diet. I simplified my finances, I simplified my clutter. But in the beginning, it was just, you know, okay, I'm not going to eat certain foods anymore. I'm going to experiment, I'm going to try and see what works best for me. And then I would try other foods and would finally come to a place that felt okay. And I continue to do that. And then it was, okay, what's the next like hot button on the list? What is stressing me out right now? And it would was money, you know, the debt, the always owing somebody something, you know, we're working so hard. Why don't we have any money at the end of the month? This isn't making sense. And so together, Mark and I decided to become debt-free. And why that was such an easy conclusion to come to then, where before it was the most impossible

thing to think about. Right, because you're living for years and years and years with this. Exactly. But this was different. Now it was necessary, I think. And I also had given myself permission to really think about how everything was impacting my health and my family. And before I really blocked that out a bunch by spending more by, you know, doing a lot of different things that allowed me not to have to think about it. But because I was, you know, had taken those first few months to really think about myself, my health, I took started taking naps for the first time ever, you know, doing a lot of research about what made me feel well, what didn't make me feel well. I had to consider these other things. And debt was a huge part of it. And we just decided, that's it, we're done. We're going to stop spending and we're going to become debt free. And it didn't happen overnight by any means. But after a couple of years,

maybe three years, we paid off all of our debt. And at the same time that we were doing that, since we weren't bringing new things in it was the perfect time to really make some headway with our stuff and clutter that we had been collecting our whole lives yeah as most of us do are you noticing along the way that like with each experiment you're feeling physically better like were you actually able to correlate a difference i think i felt better before there was an actual physical reason to feel better. Only because I was paying attention. And again, there was that hope that, okay, I can do something about this. Yeah, sense of agency.

And yeah, I mean, I wasn't the victim anymore, where up until the diagnosis, you know, Yeah, a wasn't anymore. I was my own advocate and could make decisions based on what I thought was best for me, you know, maybe not what the doctors thought were best or what some of the medical professionals recommended. I mean, now I have an amazing medical team and we work together. But in the beginning, it wasn't like that. It was, you know, I was kind of at their mercy or I felt like I was, and it was a great reminder that, yeah, doctors are great. I'm so glad we have them, but we know our bodies better than they do. Yeah. And I think that's actually important to sort of share here also is that

you're not saying, Hey, you know, like walk away from medicine and just simplify your life. You're saying, Hey, listen, like there is, there's tremendous value in like, do what you need to do from a medical standpoint, from a, you know, medication treatment, whatever it may be. And there is this whole of the world that most of us don't look at that, you know, involves changes in lifestyle and behavior and that can have a really profound effect that we tend to ignore. We tend to ignore just in everyday life, but when you're also then layering on top of that, you know, like dealing with a condition that can have profound effects on your life, like

it becomes exponentially more important. Yeah, definitely do what's best for you. And all of that. I think that so often we want to give the responsibilities to a medical professional or to a pill or to, you know, a quick fix. But for me, it's been a combination of, yes, conventional therapy, but more so lifestyle changes. And in talking to my neurologist, you know, we meet on a, I think every six months to a year, I'm meeting with him, if not him, someone from the office. And we talk extensively about the changes in diet and exercise and sleep and stress and how critical that is, that these drugs can't stand on their own. But for some people, that might not be the right way

either. So for me, it was, you know, experimenting, trying different things, and then learning to trust, A, that I knew what was best, and B, that what's best might change. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. So you start making all these changes. It starts making a difference. At some point, you also, you decide to start sharing all this stuff publicly, which kicks off a whole different adventure in your life. That's true.

That is a whole other adventure. But I did. I started blogging in 2010. Actually, even before then, I started blogging in 2010. Actually, even before then, I started a small, and I don't know why I say small, because it was the same size blog as other blogs, but it was just a blog about my, specifically about my MS journey and what was happening on a day-to-day basis so that friends and family who weren't in it every day wouldn't have to worry about me, that they would see what was happening and that I was taking action and some of the resources I was

discovering. And at some point in those first few months, I got an email from an MS patient who said, I just read about this thing that you did and I tried it and it worked for me too. Thank you so much. And in that moment, I really kind of understood the power of sharing your story publicly and decided to take it to the next level with the simplicity element and really open it up. Not really all about my personal MS journey, but my life journey, really. Was that the sort of like the shift to say, okay, let me start to share a lot more about sort of experiments and simplicity and how it's affecting me? Yes, it was. It was, again, more permission for myself to say, you know, these things that you are learning are important, not just to your own health, but to other people, they could benefit

from this. And who knows, I felt like i could be sharing something and then someone else might add to the conversation and i would learn even something else that may benefit me so it was this awesome and still is give and take of information and inspiration how much um so about when was this, like 2010? 2010. Which is funny because you're, so you have now built this tremendous community, tremendous blog, you've of make the journey from, okay, I'm telling the story of my MS and how simplicity is helping me renormalize my life and deal with the uncertainty and reclaim my health and state of mind. But it feels like now that's kind of just the backstory. And you're known, and it seems like the whole community is really built around sort of the bigger movement around simplification in life. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think the MS is sort of the bigger movement around simplification in life. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think the MS is sort of the backstory of the blog. And you may,

in reading the blog, never even know that I have MS. But I also do talk about it from time to time. And it really is in those moments when I almost always hear from other people that have MS that I'm just grateful that I have this platform to be able to tell people, you know, it's going to be okay. You're going to be okay. Just hearing those words, I think, makes such a huge difference for someone to see that someone else is doing well with the same thing that they're going through matters. But then again, it spreads to, you know, far outside the MS world because people who may not be diagnosed with anything or they have a headache or they hate their job or they're sick of debt collectors, whatever it is, there's an answer in owning less, doing less, proving less. It's a great solution for almost everything. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because it's really funny, actually, as we sit here and record this conversation, the studio for those listening, long-time listeners know this already, but if you're new to this, we have a podcast studio built into my apartment and we're actually taping this right around the time that we're

prepping for camp. So we're like wall-to-wall boxes and all sorts of stuff. And it's funny, there's like a linear relationship that I'm very aware of just in my life in that the more things that I have around me, the more tense I get, the more agitated I get, the more stressed out I get. And I start to physically remove myself just so that I can be away from it. And my favorite thing is just to have very little stuff around. I mean, I probably need 10 things in my life. And typical male, I probably rotate between like the same, you know, like 15 items of clothing, washing them on rare occasion. But it actually brings up a really cool experiment that you've done the three through three experiment. Tell me about this and what inspired it.

Yeah, so shortly after I started the blog in 2010, I decided to attack my closet, which I haven't mentioned before, but it was a huge source of stress because it was just overflowing. Do you find that that's common with speaking to a lot of people over the years? Very. I think the closet is definitely a problem area in terms of clutter. We just hold on in that space, A, and B, we just shop, shop, shop. It's so easy to add to the closet and so hard to let go because either we feel like we've spent too much on an item. We have a lot of guilt, I think, associated with our clothes. And maybe that's more so for women than men. At least I hear more from women, you know, about, well, I just bought that, or I thought that these shoes were so wonderful. And yeah, they give me blisters, but I spent so

much on them or whatever it is, we really have a lot of emotion tied up in our closet. And my approach to change until then had been pretty slow and steady, because I really wanted it to stick this time. But with my closet, I knew that was not going to work. I mean, it wasn't just my closet. It was closet, drawers, boxes, clothes for decades that I had held on to. And I was still probably wearing the same few things over and over again anyway. But I still shopped like crazy and thought, one more thing, I'm going to complete this wardrobe. And I decided to create a challenge for myself where I would wear only 33 things for three months. And that included clothing, accessories, jewelry, and shoes. I lose people

when I say shoes sometimes. However, I knew I needed- I'm thinking I'm barefoot as we're recording this. I'm like, I'll be good. I needed to include all of it because if I didn't, I knew I would try to compensate. You know, if I was only including clothes, I'd buy extra shoes. So for three months, I only wore those 33 items and I was working full time and nobody noticed. I was happier and I decided just to keep going with it.

And so to this day, I still dress with 33 items or less every three months. And many of the items from each three months carry into the following season. So it's not, you know, 33 new items every three months. And the idea really caught on and and people from around the world it's kind of its own movement it really is it really is people are trying it all over the world and discovering a lot of clarity about what they really want and need not only in their closet but in their life because they discover that it's kind of contagious like if i'm happier with less in my closet maybe I'll be happier with fewer items in my kitchen

or my office or other places. Yeah, that's so interesting because it's kind of like, I wonder if it's Charles Duhigg in The Power of Habit wrote about these things. He called keystone habits, where he's like, it's this one thing that when you do it, it may seem kind of innocuous,

but it triggers this cascade of follow on habits and new rituals and new routines and stuff like that. I wonder if the closet is sort of like one of the major keystone habits for simplification throughout all other parts of life. I think so. It definitely has been for me because not only am I better dressed than when I had more items, but I save a lot of money. I spend way less time looking for items. In fact, when I think about all the time I spent, you know, not just trying on clothes, but thinking about clothes, like who's having a sale, who's having points. Like there were so many components that by just calling a full stop to all things fashion, I, gosh, reclaimed so much time and energy, money, a lot of resources. So it was definitely a, even though I'd been

simplifying my life for years, it ramped things up for me considerably. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot?

Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.

What do you think a closet represents that it is so powerful and central that it could play, that radically restructuring and simplifying profoundly could have this effect? I don't think this is like this for everyone, but I know for myself and for many people I've talked to, hundreds, maybe thousands of people, we try to prove who we are by what we wear. And the saying, clothes make the man, I think that's a saying, but clothes make the women too, or that's what we think. And so we would, or I would try to dress for the person I thought I was supposed to be, whether it be, you know, suits into the conference room or, you know, power heels into meetings or, you know, blazers to look more put together.

We really try to be different people by what we're wearing and whether that's from you know what we see on tv or from people around us over the years i don't know how how that came to be but i know it was a big thing for me and to discover that nobody even noticed what i was wearing i was like all those years all those years, I tried to show who I was by what I was wearing. And it really goes unnoticed. It is a huge mind game. Yeah, it's almost like a closet is a proxy for belonging. And the fear is if you somehow like minimize it, you're not going to belong anymore. It was like your experiments have shown the exact opposite, that maybe you get mind space to actually serve that need for belonging in much more meaningful ways, because now you've created

the space for it. Absolutely. I mean, you see people that do uniform projects and wear the same thing, for instance, every day. And you have also, I'm sure, heard about people like Mark Zuckerberg or, you know, see jobs wearing the It's like a decision. Yeah. We're in the same thing every day. So they don't have to put any thought into it. And it makes a lot of sense. And it does open up a lot of space in every direction. So this we're years into this experiment now for you. And so I'm going to make an assumption that you've kind of hit every major area of your life, looking at your own process and looking at the now thousands of people that you've had a chance to sort of interact with around the different areas

of life, is there one particular area that you find is sort of the biggest challenge or the biggest sticking point in terms of really simplifying a part of life? The thing I hear the most about is really the closet. It's a closet. It really is. I mean, people consider trying this challenge for years before they do it in most cases. Because it's so foreign to me. They hear about it. They hear about it for the first time and they think, that's so weird or she's so weird. And then they hear about it again somewhere and they think about it and i just can't tell you how many times i've heard from people like i don't know how why i waited so long this is so much

easier than i thought it would be it sounds terrifying to people and they wait and wait and wait and then when they finally jump in they can breathe again my sister i'm going to call her out because she's a huge example that she's been talking about this for years about trying it. And when I first told her about it, she said, Oh, yeah, I'll do the challenge. I'll have 32 purses and a pair of jeans. She was not ready. And she's still talking about possibly trying it. And so we'll have calls and she's emptying out her closet and her things. And she's like, but I'm not quite ready for only 33. Like it's only three months. Like, let's see what happens. I'm seeing an intervention in the making here. Although actually let's talk about that, right? Because my sense is from sort of your philosophy and what you write about that this can't come from the outside in. You can't convince other people that this is the right thing for them. I can't do it. I can't even do it for people that are super close to me and that have seen- And not just closeting, but the entire simplification. Or any change. I mean, if you think about how you feel when

someone tries to push something on you, like a change they're excited to make. I mean, I think about when I started eating a vegetarian diet, and I would make a lot of new vegetarian meals for Mark and Bailey. And they were great sports about it in the beginning, especially. But inevitably, during the conversation, one of them would say, this is so good. But guess what would be really good with this? meat. Like you can't make other people want what you want. So I think the best thing you can do is just be an example of the message that is working for you. Yeah. So, so as we sit here now, I guess 11 years after your original diagnosis, how are you? I'm really well. I'm really well. I'm healthier

physically than I was prior to my diagnosis. I've had zero relapses for the past nine years. I have regular MRIs that show no MS progression. I even have a small lesion on my spine that has shown to be shrinking. So everything is moving in the right direction. But more importantly, the healing work that I've done has extended so far beyond MS because I'm healthier in all areas of my life. And by simplifying and making room, like I get to live the life that I've always wanted, be here for the people that I love and know myself and trust myself. I think that's probably even bigger than the physical health implications. Like really trusting that I know what's right for me is huge because I questioned that for so many years. Did others question that? Did others question?

That you knew what was right for you? I don't think so. I think from the outside looking in, people thought I had it together. And maybe people that knew me best questioned that from time to time. I don't know. I haven't had a lot of conversations about that. But I think I did a really good acting job for a long time. And- Now you don't have to act. I don't have to act or pretend or, and that, I mean, the pretending thing was, was huge. And to the

point where I even believed it myself, like I, for instance, thought for a long time that I was an extrovert, which I know will make you laugh because you kind of know me. And I pretended that at work, I pretended that just in day-to-day life. I think everyone kind of thought that, but I definitely believed it for a long time. But when I was finally able to be all the way me, and it took this devastating diagnosis to do that, but wow, that was such a relief. Like it was just, I could breathe. I could be happy, like genuinely happy for no particular reason. I didn't need anything to lift me up anymore. So you reach a point in your life where things are pretty awesome. And then, you guys didn't see that, but Courtney's just like, what, what, what? Is there something I don't know? You decide to write a book. Oh yeah, that. Talk about the opposite of simplicity. First, why? Why now?

I mean, you're making a difference in so many people's lives. You've got this huge global audience. You're doing great work in the world. You can reach them in the touch of a send button. Why a book and why now? I have wanted to write a book for a long time. And I don't even know what I wanted to write the book about in the beginning. But as much as I enjoyed photography, I've also really enjoyed writing. And I've always really loved reading books. And I've had this just desire to write a book. And as the blog was growing and more opportunities came up and I started to really develop the stories that I was sharing, it made sense to me that this was the right time. But it wasn't the book that you thought

you were going to write. It wasn't. It's taken a while. I mean, when people say it takes months to write a book, I would say it takes years to write a book. Yeah. I've always wondered about that too, write a book in like a month. Yeah. Well, it's funny because a lot of the writing writing might happen within six months time, but it was a couple of years of thinking about the book, figuring out what the book is, pitching the book, having the book rejected, rewriting the book, or book proposal that it took a long time. So I think this process really started for me in 2015. And it was a good, maybe even sooner than that, but a good year and a half before I finally knew what the book was. And it took time. And I think that it's a great combination of stories, personal stories, and action items, ways that you can incorporate simplicity into your life,

very specific actions. But some people told me not to include any of the personal story, you know, go straight self-help. Yeah. Cause I remember when we first had conversations about it, that was kind of the concept that you were thinking about. You're like, well, that's what you have to write. That's the book in this space. Let's just make it like 100% prescriptive. But yeah, and then I really thought about the people now who read my blog, especially the people that have been with me for many years, and what they respond to. And yeah, they love the, you know, 10 ways to do this and may find some value in that. But it's when I write about a specific story or something that I've experienced that I get the most moving emails or, I guess, connection.

And I wanted that to be part of the book. I wanted there to be connection because without that connection, I don't think there can be any inspiration to change. Yeah, no. And I think it definitely, you know, it comes across. It's fun for me to sort of be behind the scenes and having, you know, like seen what the initial concept was and seeing you basically reach a point where you're like, you know, I'm giving myself permission to write the book that I need to write. Well, and I think you might remember when I really didn't want to write the book that I need to write. Well, and I think you might remember when I really didn't want to write the book proposal at all, like book proposals. I had done them before. I don't think anybody ever likes to write book proposals. No, I didn't want to do

it. And I was stomping my feet over it. And so I hired an editor to write the first proposal. And it felt so good just to let it all go and let her take it over. And she did a wonderful job, but it wasn't my voice. It wasn't my story anymore. Things really got lost. And it was a hard pass from many, many publishers. And when I got the feedback from, you know, various publishers about what they liked or didn't like about it. I rewrote it myself and just said, this is how it's going to be. I'm, you know, the commas aren't going to be in the right place, but this is the proposal. And that is the one that stuck. Yeah. I think we're so, it's interesting because like on multiple levels, one is about, okay, so

you know, when it comes to anything prescriptive, nonfiction, like people just want formula, formula, formula. I don't entirely agree with that. And then also you experienced the same thing almost like on a meta level when you're writing the proposal to sell the book is like there was a disconnect or something that's not quite like the voice isn't coming through with enough power to make me want to stand up and say hell yes to this. And it wasn't until you said, and this has. And it's almost like stuff, a love story. But it doesn't feel like it just, okay, read this chapter, do this, read this chapter, do this. There's tons of great prescriptive stuff in it. But I got to know things about you that were new to me. And that made me curious and also just made me want to follow along. And let me believe that certain things are worthy of trying as somebody who's sort of like not deeply invested in the world of simplicity and minimalism. And actually, let me ask you about those two words, minimalism and simplicity. What's your relationship there? I mean, for me, it's not what you call it that matters. And I don't find, at least in my own life, that there's a big difference between the two. I kind of use the terms interchangeably, but I think minimalism scares people sometimes because that feels like more nothing. But it's really the same thing. It's just living with what matters to you

and getting rid of the distractions and the junk and the excess. I know there are like actual different definitions in the dictionary, but to me, they basically mean the same thing. But I don't even care what you call it. Because for me, it's not even about having a simple life or being a minimalist. Like I just don't care about either of those things. It's about having a life, like having a life. That's what I wanted from all of this. And it's exactly what I got. It feels like a great place to come full circle, actually. So as we sit here, the name of this is Good Life Project. So when I offer out that phrase to live a good life, what comes up? Well, as you can tell from this conversation,

I feel like I've had many lives within this short lifetime. And I've done it in a lot of different ways. I've done the getting by life. I've done the let's cover everything up and pretend and distract life. And now I'm doing the let's be in it life. Like let's be here for our lives. And that's the one that is a good life for me, really being here. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, thanks so much for listening. And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help make this show possible.

You can check them out in the links we've included in today's show notes. And while you're at it, be sure to click on the subscribe button in your listening app so you never miss an episode and then share the Good Life Project love with friends. Because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold. See you next time. We'll be right back. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.