Good Life Project - Don't Worry, Be True to You | Madison McFerrin

Episode Date: October 3, 2019

Madison McFerrin is an independent singer-songwriter (http://madisonmcferrin.com/) based in Brooklyn, NY, who's lit up the world with her distinctively soulful voice and arrangements. Raised in music by her father, legendary vocalist Bobby McFerrin, Madison knew she was going to be a singer from the age of 5 and was on her path, learning, performing, finding her own unique voice and building her career.But after a very public national anthem performance went sideways, she found herself facing an onslaught of viral, online hate from thousands of anonymous critics as well as some of the biggest names in music. She had to decide exactly how she wanted to keep sharing her gift with the world. Rather than hiding, she took the critics on by releasing powerful new a capella tracks that wowed listeners, turned the tide, and set her off on a new musical direction. She is currently building on her momentum, pairing her timeless voice with modern production on her new project, You + I, which quickly had its lead single "TRY" (http://smarturl.it/TRY-single) rack up 560K+ views in her debut COLORS session.-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So there's an interesting thing that often happens when you're trying to sort of stake your claim in a particular space or industry or field or domain. And at the same time, you come from a long lineage or history or family that has already become somewhat legendary in that same space. It gives you certain opportunities because you're around so much of their genius as you're coming up and exposed to so much so early in life. And at the same time, it also brings a whole new set of experiences, expectations, and reactions from other people around you that you have to grapple with. That in some way has been the experience of my guest today, Madison McFerrin. The last name

McFerrin, you probably know because her dad is the legendary Bobby McFerrin and her grandfather was actually an opera singer who sang at the Metropolitan Opera in New York. So when we sat down at 27 years old, fairly young in her career, yet making a really astonishing sort of step into that world of music, we had a really interesting conversation about where she came from, her influences, growing up in a profoundly musical and well-known family

and how she kind of navigated that, found her way and continues to really explore what is it that she wants to be doing? What is the voice, the impact, the message, the artistry that she wants to bring to the world as she creates and defines and maps her own profession and her own life? And who does she want to become as an artist and a human being? And what difference does she want to make? Love this conversation. I'm so excited to share it with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project.

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Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk. I know from sort of like a pretty early age, you were, I mean, clearly you're exposed to music. You come up in a musical family.

I guess we should just sort of throw that out there. Get the pedigree out of the way. Right. So grandfather, I guess, really is where a lot of it started. Is that fair to say? In terms of like the professional musicians, I would say so. It seems like even he growing up, his father was a preacher. And so I'm assuming that there was lots of church music happening in the house. But as far as I know, my grandfather and his wife, my grandmother, were probably the first professional musicians to kind of kick off the legacy of sorts. But

he ended up being the first African-American signed to the Met. So that's not insignificant. Yeah, I mean, that's pretty huge. So for those who aren't sort of like familiar with New York, the Metropolitan Opera is this legendary sort of institution. Yeah. How did he end up, because he grew up in Arkansas? Yes. How does he end up in New York? You know, I'm not quite sure what led him to New York. I know that he was at Fisk for college.

Got it. York. I know that he was at Fisk for college. And I believe he and my grandmother met in DC, if I'm not mistaken, she went to Howard, but I'm actually not sure as to how they ended up in New York. Cause my dad and his sister were both born here in Manhattan. But I'm not sure what led them here in the first place. Yeah. Do we call him? Did you have a relationship with him or was he gone? Not much. He and my grandmother divorced when my dad was in high school, I want to say. And he and my dad kind of had like an on and off relationship of sorts. And so I only interacted with him a handful of times before he passed when I was in high

school. But I was, you know, I talked to him on his birthday and like that kind of thing, but we weren't super close. Right. So that was your grandfather. And then your dad, Bobby McFerrin, has been this, you know, like a legendary voice in the world of music for solid 50 plus years, probably at this point uh i mean let's see he he decided he wanted to be a singer for real like just because he was a pianist first that he wanted to be a singer when he was 27 and he started like kind of later and yeah i mean he

was singing like he would play piano bars and like sing and play at the same time but he decided to solely focus on music when he was 27 so that was that was 77 so we've a few years since then 42 years or something like that

so 27 was kind of like when he went all in that's right around the age you are now. That's exactly the age I am right now. Do you ever reflect on that? A lot. I reflect on that a lot, actually. It gives me a lot of comfort just to know that somebody of his stature, granted, granted, even though he had decided to become a singer at 27, this is a guy who was like a literal prodigy at the piano. Like he went to Juilliard when he was six or something like that.

Oh, wow. Yeah, they had a school program that he got into when he was in kindergarten. So it's not as if his ear hadn't been developed prior to that happening. And when you have a professional opera singer as a father and a voice teacher as a mother and you know you're raised around that environment it's not as if he just like started from the bottom of vocalese you know it's just like that he had a very solid foundation uh but just to know that he you know really was this he developed his own style that was unlike what other people had heard you can't really go back and say like oh Bobby McFerrin sounds like this other singer you know like you can say that he sounds like other instruments kind of but you can't really say

that like he oh I hear the influence of this singer like can't really say that like he, oh, I hear the influence of this singer like so strongly in him because like he really developed his own thing. So the fact that he was 27 when he decided to go on that journey is very much like, oh, if you really like put in the work, it doesn't really matter at what age you started. I don't have to have been five and, you know, working on improv for my whole life in order to become a legend. Yeah. And it's almost like at the same time, I'm fascinated with people who, who in some way are exposed to certain worlds, but never sort of like step into it in a really full immersive way until later in life. I've seen so many people in fine arts and performing arts

do that where they were almost working. I mean, like your dad was, yes, he was involved in the world of music. I've seen so many other people, they're school teachers or they're in some totally different career. And they've always had this musical or artistic or painterly ear or eye, but kind of assumed, you know, like that path wasn't for them and something happens in the middle of their lives. And like, you know, maybe it is. And the career and they blossom into these just profoundly impactful artists. Yeah, totally. And I think my dad has said that he didn't want to be a singer, you know, out of rebellion in a way because both of his parents were vocalists and like, didn't want to do that. And then he just caught the bug.

And I think it's also similar to my oldest brother, Taylor. He's a producer and he just released an album. And it's the first time that he's singing on the whole album. And he similarly was not trying to sing because of our dad. These things just kind of evolve in whatever way they want to. Right. So how does that manifest in you then? Because if like there's the same resistance, I mean, and every kid to a certain extent, you know, resists their parents.

Totally. Does that show up in you in a similar way or not? Yeah. I never had a hesitation towards singing itself. and I think also because I it might be because of the fact that growing up I'm the youngest my oldest brother is 10 and a half years older than me and our middle brother is 6 and a half years older than me so I was like

I came after the Don't Worry fame and like all of that stuff and so my dad was around a lot more for my childhood than he was with my older brothers he was on the road a lot when they were kids. And I think because of that, that also meant that he and I got to sing together more. And so I think the fact that I had a different relationship with him and singing growing up as

a kid, there wasn't for me, it was like, oh, this is fun. Like just because we were playing all the time, like that was a source of fun for the two of us and it it wasn't really until later in life that I had more hesitation towards not as much singing but improv and scatting and that kind of thing like a lot of people assume that like that's my bread and butter and I'm like nah like that that's more so like where I draw a line and I guess my resistance more so comes from the fact that like I write words more than he does you know but it definitely is a it's very much a looming thing you know like I it's hard when you grow up and you you don't really have a full

understanding of the impact that you're one of your parents has on the world. You know, like that's, that's something that is kind of hard to grasp, especially when it's not like he's so famous that everywhere we went, he was getting stopped. And I guess it was different in the height, but like I wasn't around for that. Yeah. But I didn't, I wasn't aware of just how influential he was. And so I didn't really let it intimidate me until all of a sudden I'm in college and everybody's like freaking out. And I'm like, wait, what? What does this mean? So it was really college when the realization of who your dad was, not to you, but really to other people, landed.

That's got to have been kind of weird. Oh, so weird. And especially just from the standpoint of I didn't know that so many people in my peer group were aware of him and like idolized him. That was something that I had attributed more to people in my parents' generation. Oh, that's interesting. So I was far more aware that people around their age group knew who he was, but I was rarely around people my age who knew who he was beyond Don't Worry. Yeah.

You know, it was like, oh, he had this one song that some of us weren't even alive for and i hear it in pop culture references all the time but all of a sudden i'm with these people who are my peers and they're coming up to me being like your dad is my biggest idol and i'm like i don't know what to do with that you know you're like uh or just like thank you exactly or just like freaking out that he's helping me move into my dorm room you know and it's like what am i supposed to do with this am i just supposed to kind of am i supposed to own that am i supposed to shy away from it am i and especially as a college student i knew that i wanted to sing i didn't know in what capacity because when i was in kindergarten i wanted to be a pop star and by the time i got to college i knew that I wanted to sing. I didn't know in what capacity, because when I was in kindergarten, I wanted to be a pop star. And by the time I got to college, I knew that that's not what I wanted. And I hadn't really written a lot of music. And so then to all of a sudden have all of

these expectations in a way that I was like, whoa, it was odd. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how kind of interesting and weird for you sort of dawn on that. It's like, you know, your dad is this guy, you know, he's talented, you know, he's been singing and other people, but cause I guess don't worry, came out what late eighties? 88. Right. So, and like you said, so a lot of your peers, when you hit college, weren't even born. But you also, I mean, you also surrounded yourself with a different set of peers. You ended up at Berklee music school, right? So everybody there was already steeped in this world. So this is not sort of like the general public who's your age.

Right, exactly. And I think that that was also a different environment because that was the first time that I really had been put in that kind of environment. I went to a Quaker private school growing up. It's like, obviously there were musicians, but it's not, I didn't go to a music school, you know, and I didn't do a lot of specialized music stuff. I went to a performing arts camp for a couple of years and that was a taste of it, you know, but, and I went to a, Berkeley has a summer program that I did the summer before my senior year of high school. But being at Berkeley

was the first time that I was like fully immersed in, we are all musicians. Like this is music all the time, you know? So that was, that was very much a new experience for me. I mean, what was that like for, for going into Berkeley? Did you know at that point already? You're like, okay, so I don't know what it's going to look like, but like my thing is singing or were you under that point already, you're like, okay, so I don't know what it's going to look like, but my thing is singing? Or were you undecided? No, I had known that since I was five. What happened when you were five?

I don't know. I just like that it was a thing where people were like, oh, what do you want to be when you grow up? And before that, it was like a tightrope walker. And then I think I just was like, okay, my dad sings. He seems to have fun. That's clearly a career you can have, even before I understood what a career really was. But I was like, I like singing. I think I could do this. So I pretty much made that decision and never entertained any other options. Any other options that I entertained had to do with singing, but was like another form of it. Yeah. So interesting. Interesting too, right? Because you mentioned, you know, like you've got two older brothers, six and a half and 10 years

older than you. So part of their experience, I guess, would have been music to a certain extent, also taking their dad away from them from windows of time. Right, yeah. Whereas that wasn't part of your experience. So you have this totally different relationship. Well, it was because he was still gone a lot. Okay. But I, from what I hear, like he was, my mom was essentially a single mom, particularly with my older brothers. Because that's before Don't Worry really hit off. And, you know, he was

trying to establish a career and he was on the road for months at a time versus with me, you know, he was gone still a decent amount. But my two best friends, one of them, her mom was a businesswoman who was on the road all the time. And another one, her dad was a business consultant who was on the road all the time. So that was just kind of my reference point. Right, for you, it's not a big... Right, it didn't seem like anything out of the ordinary that he was gone because my two best girlfriends that I was hanging out with all the time in kindergarten, their parents are not musicians, but they're gone. So it wasn't something that I thought was weird or strange by any means. Yeah, it's just, it was for a different reason.

Right, exactly. Yeah. But I was like, oh, a parent is just not home a lot. That's normal. Right. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple watch ever making it even more comfortable on your

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Flight Risk. So you end up at Berkeley. And when you get there, is it what you thought it would be? No. How so? I mean, what did you think? And then how is it not? I guess yes and no, because I did do the summer program. And so I had an understanding of because what the summer program was, was essentially like a precursor to college. You kind of get an understanding of what Berklee looks like and sounds like and how they operate and stuff.

So I had a baseline understanding. I like to say that like at 18, I don't think I could have gone anywhere else because I was so desperate for a musical environment in a way that I hadn't thought that I had at my school. But then it ended up being the case that, you know, in my first year and a half in college, I had actually been singing more on a daily basis in high school. Oh, no kidding. Just by the way that things are structured at Berklee. So I was kind of like, wait a second, what's happening here, you know? And it made me understand or have a better understanding that while I have only wanted to be a musician my entire life, there are other things about the world that I'm interested in and interested in learning. And the oversaturation of music kind of did a disservice for the other things that I was interested in learning about.

And like, there's kind of this stigma around if you graduate, which I did, first of all, only, I think the graduation rate is like 53%. Oh, wow. And it's because you either very quickly realize that you don't want to be a musician in this way because it's it's music all the time right now it's like you're learning theory and like all of these other things that it becomes a lot for some people and it's so specialized i guess if you realize that there's not you can't like switch to polysophia right exactly exactly um so it's either you realize you don't want to do that and you drop out or you get picked up for a gig and you get on the road. And so there's kind of this stigma around graduating, because if you graduate, that means that you didn't get picked up for a gig.

Oh, wow. And you get considered an alum after completing one semester because of this. So I think John Mayer only completed like one or two semesters or something like that. But it's like if you get picked up, like it doesn't even matter if you only were there for one month because like they still get to stamp their name on you, you know. So they have a rating system that you get rated on like your, I forget what all of the categories are, but it'll, depending on your

rating, it allows you to enter certain classes or certain ensembles and you can audition every year to change your rating. I never did. I like stuck with my rating and was like, whatever. Um, and it's kind of this thing where it's like if you really want to be in like this top thing like you always have to to push yourself to get to that point which and there's also this this lingering vibe among some people which i think it's probably waning now or because like it started as a jazz school right and now it's not just jazz but there are some hardcore jazz people that are like jazz is the only music and if you are not good at jazz then you suck at music period you know so it's like there's kind of that crowd that's like trying to make it known that like it's the only way to do it.

And there's there are some teachers that do that. But I would say it's mostly students that are that are kind of like pushing that vibe. Grassroots thing happening. Yeah. Not even grassroots as much as it is just like these are all like serious jazz heads that came into school. Like I have perfect pitch and like I already know all of this theory and all this stuff. And it's like, okay, congratulations. So yeah, it's a different kind of perfectionism, you know?

So for you walking into that culture, coming from the family you come from, the moment people know who you are, it must've been even like weirder than I thought it was or like a sense of pressure or almost like expectations from your peers about what you would be capable of. Yeah, my first semester, I was in the lobby of my dorm and somebody walked up to me and put out their hand and was just like, I believe greatness flows

and then walked away. Oh, man. I was like, what? Or just the amount of times that like people would ask me how my dad was before they would ask me how I was type of thing. It's like I'm standing here. Right. Right. And I was in this class with unfortunately the professor recently died, but it was a poetry class. And it was one of the

more honest classes I was able to be in where like, that was the encouragement behind it was like, we're trying to make this a more open space. And there was one time when I posed the question of how many of you guys knew who I was before I even like walked into this classroom or like we've never even spoken before. And over half the class raised their hand. I wasn't allowed to like be the anonymous college kid that's trying to figure out their life. Yeah. That's got to be so hard also because the way we figure things out is by trying a whole bunch of things, which means part of that process is we're not good at a whole bunch of things. If you're relatively anonymous, you can do that entity under the weight of expectation, it just, like, I would imagine the way you experienced that was a lot of heaviness. Yeah.

It was a lot of pressure. I mean, a lot of people just expected that I already knew, like, counterpoint and I already knew theory and I already knew all of these things. But it's like I was starting at the first classes with everybody else, you know, And so it was just, there wasn't as much room for error. It felt like, but at the same time, it's like you just want to hide and have plenty of room for error. Yeah. Just as a human, not even as a musician, you know? Right.

Cause you're just figuring out, I mean, at that point you're figuring out who you are just as a person. Totally. I'm still figuring out who I am as a person. It goes on for a long, long time. I've met very few people who have like got that dialed in no matter what age they are. While you're there, I mean, what are you starting to get? You also mentioned that there were things that you realized that you actually did care about that were kind of pushed

out of the way. Yeah. Curious what those things are. Well, just like an understanding of other things that happen in life. You know, it's like I was fortunate to be raised with a very great education, which is a source of privilege that unfortunately most people aren't afforded in this country. And I would try to, you know, you get inundated with music all the time and I would try and have conversations with people about other things. And these could be like the most proficient musicians and they didn't know how to talk about anything else or just feeling like I wasn't being pushed academically in a way where. I mean, there was one class that I think had to do with the history of the American music recording industry or something like that. And it was my senior year. And at the end, the last class, I went up to my teacher and I was like, thank you for giving me what felt like a real college class, you know.

Or there was one class that was Mesoamerican art and architecture where they had a Mesoamerican architect teaching the class. And I was like, this is really cool, you know, or just like learning about different parts of history. And I actually I didn't realize until later that I was like, oh, I actually liked being pushed intellectually in these other ways. And I think that that would have also helped my music classes because I would have gotten a break. You know, like I went into college listening to music all the time. And by the time I left college, it was like, I needed a breather. Yeah. Because when music became homework every day, all the time, it was like, oh my God, like, I don't want to listen to music right now.

Yeah, I was really curious about that actually, right? Because so many times you see this in people with professions, right? When there's something you love to do and you do it on the side as often as you can, then something happens and you get an opportunity to make it your full-time thing. And then once it becomes your full-time thing and like, that's all you do all day, every day, you almost start to resent the fact that like, that is now your thing. Right. Exactly. So did it get to a point ever where you questioned whether this was the thing that you wanted to really devote yourself to?

Not really, but I don't know if that was just because I was like, okay, I decided I was going to do this when I was five. I don't really have, I don't know what else I'm supposed to do with my life. So not as much that. If anything, I just questioned my choice of institution. Yeah. So when you, while you're in Berkeley, what's happening to you as sort of just developing as a human being and as a musician? I mean, where is that taking you? Well, I will say I think the best part of Berkeley is the network that you develop. And not just from like a professional standpoint, but it's like I made some really great friends and we got to

grow up as musicians together. And so the majority of my music, what I feel like was my music education during my time at Berklee came from the fact that I, my sophomore year, or I guess, no, my second semester of my freshman year started a band with a couple of my friends who we were already friends and all of us just happened to play different instruments we ended up starting this band and we played together a lot and so for my sophomore, junior, and then like first half of my senior year of college, we were, we played a lot of shows and we like had a booking agent and we were coming to New York and we were playing a lot of these like random mountain ski lodge gigs with like nobody there, but they paid decent money, but it was, we were shedding, you know,

it was like a lot, a lot of practice. And up until that point, I had been pretty nervous. Like I did my state, I had a decent amount of stage fright and it helped me get rid of a lot of that. It helped me get rid of most of it. I still have a little bit of it in certain scenarios, but it really helped me understand like how to command a stage and how to be present with other people on stage. And it was a that was like my biggest learning opportunity. And then starting in the second half of my junior year through my senior year and then for a couple of years post-college, I ended up joining my dad's band as a background vocalist. And so then I was like touring the world.

And a cool thing about Berklee is you can use that as a credit. So I wrote that off as a credit. I just had to like make a presentation about it at the end of the semester or whatever. So that was also a huge learning experience of just like what it means to be a legit touring musician. And so those were the biggest elements for me of being able to ground the foundation of the musician that I am now

and just having a better understanding of, you know, I have no problem talking to a sound guy or something or like, I know what I'm, and I know what I'm understanding of, you know, I have no problem talking to a sound guy or something, or like, I know what I'm, and I know what I'm talking about, you know, like, I'm not just like somebody off the street who like hasn't had these experiences. And I think a lot of people don't, I mean, maybe now they do, but definitely in the beginning of my solo career, people didn't think that I really knew what I was talking about or that I think they discredited the amount of experience that I've had in the field. Or it was like, no, like you're going to listen to me because I actually know what I'm talking about.

So don't discredit me. Right. The idea of performing and practicing over and over on any stage you can get, even if there's five people there, almost like as a form of exposure therapy. Totally. I think it's really fascinating. Yeah. It's like part of it is, yes, you're getting the craft. It's like every time you do it, you're learning it better. But I know so many people who perform in some way, shape, or form for a living and have for years and still feel that when they step on stage. And it's gotten a lot better after they've done it hundreds or thousands of times, but it's still there on some level.

My dad says it's not about having the butterflies in your stomach, but getting them to fly in formation. So that's what I try and focus on. Yeah, I like that. It's almost like if you don't feel them or is something wrong where you just no longer, you're so uninvested at that on. Yeah, I like that. It's almost like if you don't feel them, or is something wrong where you just no longer, you're so uninvested at that point.

Right, yeah, maybe. It's almost like it's a signal that you care. Yeah. So when you're touring, so you're singing backup with your dad at that point? Mm-hmm. Was that the first time that you had done that with him? In a professional setting, yes.

Yeah, yeah. How was that experience for you it was great i had a really fun time it came about because he came out with us an album of spirituals called spirit you all and at the time i was studying abroad in spain for my second semester of my junior year and the first gig that he had with the new band was in London. And Esperanza Spalding plays bass and sings backgrounds on the album. She's incredible also. Right. I mean, and also a Berklee alum. And that was going to be the only show that she could do.

And she had to drop out for some reason. And my mom, being the incredibly smart woman that she could do. And she dropped, she had to drop out for some reason. And my mom being the incredibly smart woman that she is, when my dad was trying to figure out what to do, she was like, well, your daughter is in Europe right now. Like just have her come to London and like sing with you guys. And he was like, oh yeah, that's actually a good idea. So they they I think like a week or two before it happened they just sent me the music and it was the first time that my dad was playing with this band and it ended up being this really great dynamic it was like this group of people that we all love each other and we have a lot of fun and my dad keeps saying like this is like the best band he's ever had and all this stuff. And it was also great because it was like I got to travel with my dad and like spend a lot of time with him. And it was the first time that I had really gotten to see him in that dynamic because I never went on tour with him like as a kid or something. It was only the case where like if he was going to be in a city for a particular number of days and like we could all go. And that would only be if there wasn't school and like that kind of thing.

So I was never like on the road with him. And even then it was like as a as a watching or enjoying him rather than collaborating with him. Right. Like I wasn't going to soundcheck and like all these other things. And so that was really fun and exciting. And it also gave me a deeper understanding of who he was as a person, because it would be this thing where, you know, he would be on the road for three, four weeks and then he'd come home and be kind of isolated and not want to go out and like not want to do things. And, you know, as his daughter, I like want to spend more time with him and all this stuff. And after our first like serious tour that I did with him, I was 22 at the time and I got off the road and got home and I was like, oh, I get it. You're just tired and like

don't want to do anything because you're traveling like every day and for an extensive period of time. And like that does, that takes a toll on your body. And so the fact that I was 22 and feeling those ways, I was like, oh wow, this guy's been doing this for like 40 years. Of course he doesn't want to like go out to dinner. He wants to like be home and just like chill. Yeah. Like the empathy side kicks in at a whole different level. Absolutely. If you're at a point in life when you're ready to lead with purpose, we can get you there. The University of Victoria's MBA in Sustainable Innovation is not like other MBA programs.

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Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. So after that experience, then you're coming out of Berkeley. And then the question becomes, okay, now what? Now we're stepping back into the real world.

I'm outside of this bubble. The good, the bad, everything that it was, the amazing experiences. But when you step out into the world, you're like, okay, what is my contribution? What is my voice? How do I actually make that step? How does that start to unfold for you? a year after college of continuing to tour with my dad okay so that first year I was like still on the road and I was just happy to have graduated and have left and I moved to New York five days after graduation I was like get me out of Boston like I just like can't anymore and so I felt good about that but then it definitely turned into this thing where I think there was a two-year period where I hadn't written a song and I was sad about it. But at the same time, I felt burnt out. I felt very musically burnt out. And the band had broken up that I had in college, Cosmodrome. And it was just this, I kind of felt back

to that era of like starting college of being like, who am I? You know, like I still didn't know. Because when I was in the band in college, like it felt really right. And I think we just couldn't, we just couldn't work it out. You know, like too many different personalities,

like not working together in the right way. We toyed with the idea of getting back together after college and it never, once again, didn't work out, but it was really, you know, the solo career like blossomed out of necessity for not only my soul, but like to feel like I needed to prove myself to myself. But it was like, like I said, it was like, I decided to do this when I was five and like, what else was I going to do? Yeah. When you make that decision then to sort of step into your solo career, how do you decide coming from the background that you come from? How do you decide what that's going to look like for you? I'm still deciding.

Yeah. It's like an ever evolving process. Totally. Yeah. But it's like, so you had been in a band, you had, you had been with your dad. I'm guessing you had tons of other, like when you step out into that world, because you've done some really, in the last couple of years, powerful stuff really on your own as a soloist.

Well, I'm curious about the decision to step out more as a solo artist than a collaborator. I know you're collaborating more these days, but for the first couple of years, it felt like it was really like, you almost placed a flag in the sand and said, I need to kind of be me first. I think it stemmed from, I'd done the band thing

and I actually did this electronic hip hop duo thing for a second. And then I had this moment of when I actually decided that I wanted to do solo music that it felt so right in my body like I had this physical reaction of like I think I got goosebumps and like some other things that I was like okay I just gotta do it you know but I knew that I just wanted to be by myself like I I think it was I think it was something where like I really had to prove to myself that I I could do it and not have anybody else to lean on or hide behind is probably a better way of putting it more accurate way of putting it and I I really needed to push myself

to be in a position where it was like if if something goes wrong, it's on you. It's not on these other people. If you mess up in a song, you can't blame the bassist for changing the key or going to the wrong section of the song or whatever. It's like, I really needed that pressure because I don't think anybody else had really put that pressure on me before. Berklee certainly didn't put that pressure because I don't think anybody else had really put that pressure on me before. Berkeley certainly didn't put that pressure on me. My parents, as wonderful as they are, never really put that pressure on me. And so I had to do it for myself. And so I think that that was the only way that I was going to get around to doing it.

Yeah. I mean, so that brings up a really, and what I'm sure was a really hard moment for you also, where you step out and you're like, everything that goes right is on me and everything that goes south is on me. Yeah. And you end up on a stage in 2016 at a political rally, singing the national anthem. And like, like we've said, when you're trying to figure things out, you know, like you're, you're trying to figure things out, you know, like you're, you're constantly trying new things and new settings. And, and the benefit of, I think a lot of people who aren't in the world of public performing is that when things don't go right, it's not in, it's kind of like, okay, so I messed that up. What did I learn? How am I going to do

things different moving forward? And for you, I mean, this unfolded in one moment in a very public way that I would imagine from like living your life would have been really hard in that moment. It sucked. Yeah. Tell me, walk me through what happened. Well, see, that's the other thing is like at that moment when that happened, I had recently started, decided to become a solo musician, but I hadn't done any shows. I had recorded some stuff that was like scratch. It wasn't even the, the full thing. It was just like, here are some ideas. So I, I wasn't fully in the like, yes, I am a solo performer type thing. Right. You hadn't like publicly stepped out. Right. Exactly. And so

I got this opportunity to sing the national anthem for Hillary Clinton when she won the Democratic nomination. And that just came about through a friend of my brother's. My brother called me and he was like, hey, my friend's going to call you about this thing. I was like, OK, bet, whatever. And she called me and the event was two days later. And at the time I was nannying for work because the stuff with my dad had phased out more or less. And for those two days, I like strenuously rehearsed the national anthem. And there was just a series of events that unfolded that I didn't have any control over. I was unable to go to soundcheck because I had work. And when I got to the Brooklyn Navy Yard,

where it was, people had already been waiting for about three hours. And I want to say it was like 5,000 people there or something like that. And then Hillary didn't show up for another three hours because they were still trying to determine that like she had in fact won the nomination. And I think there were also some security issues or whatever. And so that all happened in the room is like really ripe with anticipation for this historic moment. And when they called me up on stage, they didn't introduce me to the audience. So when I started singing the national anthem, the audience started singing the national anthem with me. So it wasn't the moment of like, it wasn't the moment that I had rehearsed for at all. Like I had that scenario had not entered my brain in any way, shape or form. I had not prepared myself for what happens if the audience starts singing this with you. So the audience starts singing with me and I got thrown off. And so I just invited the audience to continue to sing with me, you know, like what am I supposed to do in that moment? Tell the audience to stop singing the national anthem that just felt unpatriotic.

And I definitely didn't have the balls to do that. And it was on national television and you can't hear a single other person singing. You just hear me with my microphone singing a version of the national anthem that I had not rehearsed singing with a crowd of people that you cannot hear in the playback. And I, and unfortunately the thing that sucks about it is like, it was a really joyous moment. And like, we were all like really happy. And I like invited them to continue singing with me because I wasn't going to tell them to stop. But because of that, it's like, if you are to isolate a single person in a room of people singing happy birthday, like they probably don't sound great, you know, like unless they're just like doing their own version, like putting their stake in the ground of like,

no, you guys are going to, I'm going to sing this song this way, which I probably could have done in some way, but I, I, I didn't know how to. And so then when I got off stage, my phone had blown up with Twitter, just like telling me that I had ruined my opportunity and I couldn't sing. And like Snoop Dogg made fun of me and I was on the shade room and I got hit with this onslaught of hate that was really, it was really troubling. And it just so happened that like the a few days before this happened, I had been in my therapist's office and I had cried in front of my therapist for the first time saying like, I don't think I can sing. Like, I don't know what I'm doing with my life. Like, I'm just so lost and confused. And then, you know, fast forward four days and here's what felt like the entire world telling me.

Right. Like, oh, yeah, maybe you're right. Right. exactly. So it was really, it really sucked, but it was actually the thing that pushed me to be like, you know what, I did not go through all of this time with this dream just to have you guys tell me that I can do this. I'd been performing, I'd performed all around the world. And you guys caught me on my bad day on live television. I'm sorry that you don't know about all of these other factors that went into it, you know? And so it was one of those things where it was like, am I about to let this be the moment where like, I have to change my whole trajectory of my life for the worse. And I wasn't about to let that happen. I'm too stubborn. Yeah. I can't even imagine what that must have been like. It sucked. I do not recommend getting trolled on the internet. I mean, but what blows me away though, is that really soon after you basically said,

no, no, no, no. Yes, this is awful. And four days later, unbeknownst to anybody else, you were letting your therapist know that you were really questioning whether this was your path. And like, now you have this massive public voice piling on saying, well, maybe it's not. Right. And your response to that was not to sort of vanish and say, you know, like, well, maybe they're all right. And maybe that voice in me is right. But no, like there was something deep down inside of you that said, no, no, this is why I'm here.

Like this is the thing that I want to do. And rather than hide, like I'm going to step out publicly as soon as I can. Right. I didn't really see another choice. Yeah. I read this book around that time after that had happened called Daring Greatly. By Brene Brown. Right.

And there was a line in it that I don't exactly remember the wording, but it was like, you get to decide how the story ends. And so I wasn't about to let those people tell me how my story ended. I was like, okay, this is what I want to do. And it was totally unintentional. I hadn't even thought about the fact that me ending up doing acapella music was even more of like an F you because it was like, okay, you think I can't sing, but here's me just using my voice. Right. Which is what you did. So your next move is you step out and you're like, okay, I'm not going to rely on anything

but my voice. Well, that wasn't the initial step. Okay. Before the Hillary Clinton thing had happened, I'd written like an album that I cut down to five songs. And for my first show, I had this loop pedal and i hadn't really been using it much and i had a synthesizer and so i the first half of the show was me with the loop pedal and the synthesizer and like i can't remember if it was one or two acapella songs and then the second

half i actually brought my old band up and we did the songs that I had written on this album. But I knew, I don't know what it was, I guess maybe seeing my dad and my brother, I knew that I only wanted to be on stage by myself. But I don't feel as confident as I would like to playing the piano and singing songs at the same time for that to be my thing. And that's how I'd written these songs on the album. And so out of necessity, I was like, okay, I'll just do these songs with the loop pedal and my synthesizer. And I wrote a couple acapella tunes with the loop pedal. And as I was doing more and more gigs in New York, I would get these shorter gigs that were like 20 minutes.

And it was a thing where it was like, okay, well, I don't want to bring my synthesizer just for one song. So I was like, okay, I'll just, I'll bring my loop. I always brought the loop pedal. That's the only thing I had. I was like, I'll just do the acapella songs so that I don't have to bring this other piece of equipment with me for a total of three songs. It's like, I have three acapella songs. I'll just do the acapella songs. And so I, after doing that more and more, like that became a much more niche thing that people were into.

And I also was, I felt like my acapella songs were actually stronger than the ones that I'd written with the synthesizer. And so it just became a thing. Like it wasn't in any, like there was no part of me doing the solo thing that had the intention of being an acapella vocalist. Right. It was almost like a convenience thing. Yeah. It was, it was totally a convenience thing. That's so funny. And then I put out the first volume of finding foundations simply because I was like, okay, I have this other project that I wrote and I want to get some buzz beforehand. And I like these acapella songs that I wrote. You also then come out in 2017 with a song called Can You See?

Yeah. Which is interesting, right? Because that's sort of like looping acapella. And then at the end, you decide to add in something. Mm-hmm. National Anthem's in it. Right. Was that in response to what happened?

Or was that, I mean, obviously it was also in the context of the song. Mm-hmm. But I'm curious whether that was almost like a shout back to what happened in some way or not really. No, not really. Like, people assume that it is. Right. I wrote the song Shine about what happened with some way or not really? No, not really. Like people assume that it is. I wrote the song Shine about what happened with the national anthem.

So that was kind of my like, that's what this song is about. But it was really something where it just felt right in that moment. When I wrote Can You See, I wrote that song like in a day, very shortly. Like it was something that just kind of flowed out pretty easily and when i put the national anthem in it it was kind of just like it works for the context

of the song and i didn't really think too much about it especially because it's like i changed the words and it's not exactly the melody right you know it's a little bit different because i remember when that came out um i remember seeing some of the comments around it. And I remember seeing some people asking in the comments, something like, I'm not going to get it exactly right, but like, was this the way that you meant to sing it in 2016? That like you couldn't sing or for whatever reason it didn't work because people were like, this is incredible. It was like really, it was very different and powerful. Thank you.

So over the last couple of years, I mean, you, you have done, so there's a volume two of founding foundations also, but it also feels like you're, you're now stepping back into sort of like a more collaborative space. And part of that is with one of your brothers. Tell me more about that, how that's unfolding. So like I said, like I had initially written another project, which wasn't this particular project, but it's what this project has evolved into. And so, again, was never my intention to do the acapella thing.

And so that just took off more than I was anticipating. And so now it's kind of like a reintroduction of what I've wanted to present people with, which actually, funny enough, the intro to the next EP, it's called You and I. It's an acapella intro that's called re, like R-E colon intro. That's awesome. But I, yeah, it was something that, and the reason why it took a while to, to get done is like, I wanted my brother to produce the whole thing and he was working on his album. And so I had to wait for him to get finished. And so I was like, okay, I guess I'll just put out another volume of acapella stuff, you know? So it was like just kind of that thing. But it's always been the case that I've wanted to have a more collaborative produced sound and hopefully people are still into it, you know, and don't think that I'm just supposed to be doing acapella stuff. Yeah. Is that a legit concern of yours, Right. Because you always, you hear so often stay in your lane. I don't know if you personally hear that, but I know across so many,

especially creative domains, people are like, okay, so you're kind of getting known for this thing and you're really good at it and you're getting traction with it. So just keep doing more of that. Right. My sense is that does happen a lot in music too. Did you feel any of that pressure? Yeah, I still do. And I think it's more so from a thing of like, I do what I do and I do it well and not anybody else is doing it in the same way that I am, at least that I know of. I'm sure. I mean, I'm not like a completely unique person because none of us are. But I have carved out a little like place for myself in this way.

And honestly, the thing that I get most concerned about is like, OK, so I'm doing this acapella thing. Not many people else are doing it in this way if i start having production does that just make me like one of these other people does it make me less unique does it make my show have less magic like those are the things that i'm more concerned about because there are so many ways that i want to express myself musically outside of acapella. And it just so happens that I can hear harmony in my head better than I can play it on the piano. So it's easier for me to sing it. So it works out that way. So even when I write music, I'm sure that there's still going to be acapella elements to it. And the thing that I rely heaviest on, even in the past, even before I was doing the acapella

stuff, it's like, I love harmonies. Like I love vocal harmonies more than anything, period. And so that's always going to be a thing in my music, regardless, regardless if there's production or not. And so there, I'm hoping that people still hear that through line to be able to understand that I'm still me. I think that there might be some jazz heads that aren't as into it, but it's like, if you're not as into my stuff, just because I added some extra stuff behind it, then okay, I'm sorry. But I have to be true to myself at the end of the day. Yeah. Do you have any concern now that you're sort of like stepping back into multi-instrument and different approaches to production? You mentioned earlier one of the powerful things, like the powerful things and scary things of kind of it being your voice and only your voice, even if it's looped and layered, is that there's nowhere to hide. When you start to bring a lot more back into it, does it concern you at all that there may be more places to hide at a moment when you're still, you know, like you've got so much work ahead of you and still so much experimentation to do and so much sort of like growth and development.

Yeah, totally. I think that's something that I have been able to get pretty good at with the acapella thing is like I'm very good at harmonizing with myself and I can stay on that with adding other elements, but that does bring in a lot more things for my ear to be paying attention to that, like, am I going to be able to stay steady in the way that I've become comfortable with? You know, are all of these other elements, is there a chance that they'll, like, throw me off in my pitch or just in my focus. You know, it's like I'm my new setup is like with gear that I haven't gotten the chance to, you know, really play with in a public setting, you know, versus like I could do acapella loops in my sleep at this point. You know, it's like I can I know that my show like the back of my hand, like I, there's not much that, that goes into it, that, that throws me off. But now I have to be even more present in a way that I'm worried about if that level of presence is going to throw me you know. And also, like you said, if you, if the, if your MO has always been that, like you hear what you want to express in your head, sometimes on a pure level, then you're actually able to express it either with your voice or with an instrument.

When you start to add multiple instruments to that or multiple sounds, multiple melodies to that, and you're not necessarily the one playing them, But you know what your brain is saying it should sound like. That's like a whole nother level of complexity and potentially frustration. Right. At the same time, it's like, no, not that. Like, how do you actually explain it? Like, can't you just listen to what's in my head and do it? Right, exactly. Yeah.

Yeah, that's so interesting. As you're sort of out playing right now, I know you've been touring a whole bunch. What's really exciting you sort of like about the moment that you're in right now with your work? I feel like right now there's so much energy happening on a global level of frustration and anxiety and not knowing what to do. Like that's not like an American only issue that we're having, you know? and anxiety and not knowing what to do. Like, that's not, like, an American-only issue that we're having, you know? And, like, after 45 got elected, one of the silver linings that I instantly knew was going to be was the fact that, like, it was going to bring about a lot of really amazing art,

just like it did in the late 60s, early 70s. I think that a lot of people really felt and still do feel a necessary push to be a musician in that moment. And hopefully me being a solo musician in the way that I have been and under the circumstances that I've had, you know, I have a lot of people who they come up to me letting me know how inspired they've been just by my story. Because we live in this society right now where me getting trolled is not an isolated incident. Even though it happened on a national scale that a lot of people won't experience. Trolling is happening like on the internet in a way that like particularly for young teenagers and stuff that like they we don't even know how to control it and it's it's hard and it's tough and I allow myself to be really vulnerable on stage which I don't really know how not to be but that is a thing that has allowed people to see that like you can

go through something publicly and actually bounce back and not let people bring you down in a way. And so I feel like my, not even just my music, but like me as a person, like I've been able to exemplify that in a way that I'm really happy about. And it's not like it's something that I'm going after or that I sought out to be some like, let me be your like vulnerable friend, persona, brand or whatever, you know, because that's not what I'm trying to do at all. Like I'm really just being myself. And like if being myself means that that inspires people to be themselves, like I'm totally down for that. Like, I feel like we need a lot more encouragement and there's so much like heavy

energy that's kind of telling a lot of people to just sit down and shut up. And I would love to be a part of whatever movement it is that tells people the exact opposite, like stand up and fight. Yeah, love that. Thanks. Feels like a good place for us to start to come full circle also. So if I offer up the phrase to live a good life in the context of this Good Life Project container, what comes up? I think to live a good life means to be true to yourself and to be true and good to the people around you. You know, I think there is something so simple and pure in the golden rule of like treat your neighbor how you would want to be treated.

We don't do enough of that right now. I think that if if we were actually that's what a good life is to me you know it's like just being one with your community and having a deeper understanding of them and yourselves and the planet and you know freedom you know real, which most people don't get to experience, whether it's from a financial level or a physical level or a mental level. I think we're all struggling with some form of, you know, enslavement in one way or another, whether it's via the man or via our brains. And I think living a good life means being free of that. It means freedom, yeah. Love it.

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