Good Life Project - Dr. Frank Lipman: Questioning the Norms in Medicine and Life

Episode Date: February 20, 2017

A pioneer in functional and integrative medicine, Dr. Frank Lipman is the founder and director of the Eleven Eleven Wellness Center in New York City and the author of many New York Times-bestselling books, including 10 Reasons You Feel Old and Get Fat, The New Health Rules. and Revive: Stop Feeling Spent and Start Living Again.Born into an activist family in then apartheid South Africa, he was taught to always question norms and authority. This ethos followed him into his initial training as a doctor in South Africa. In his early work in a Soweto hospital, he was exposed to non-traditional healers who were able to accomplish what a more traditional approach to medicine struggled with.He then emigrated to the United States in 1984, where he worked in the South Bronx, becoming Chief Medical Resident at Lincoln Hospital at the height of the crack epidemic. There, again, Lipman, began to see the limitations of traditional medicine in treating addiction, and embraced complimentary modalities. He deepened his study of nutrition, acupuncture, Chinese medicine, herbal medicine, functional medicine, biofeedback, meditation, and yoga and began to form a more integrated approach to the practice of medicine and wellbeing.Frank eventually founded the Eleven Eleven Wellness Center in 1992, combining cutting-edge nutritional science with age-old healing techniques from the East. In a quest to bring this unique approach to the masses, he then founded BE WELL, based on the belief that everyone should have a fundamental right to be healthy.Frank lives according to the philosophy of Ubuntu, a Xhosa word that serves as the spiritual foundation of African societies and articulates a basic understanding, caring, respect, and compassion for others. In his words, “what makes us human is the humanity we show each other.”Be sure to subscribe to our weekly Good Life Updates and listen on iTunes to make sure you never miss an episode!+++THIS WEEK’S PODCAST IS BROUGHT TO YOU BY+++Today’s episode is sponsored by Camp GLP, the ultimate summer-camp for entrepreneurs, makers and world-shakers! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I was always taught to question authority, and that's really helped me in my medical training too. So I think part of why I went to where I went to in medicine had to do with the way I grew up in South Africa, because you sort of knew that the system was rotten. Today's guest, Dr. Frank Lippman, grew up in apartheid South Africa. His family, though, never accepted any of the things that they were told to do. In fact, his parents were very strong activists against that system. He ended up finding his way into the world of medicine. And when it came time

for him to start practicing, actually served in a hospital in Soweto, just outside of South Africa in Johannesburg. Eventually, he really started questioning a lot of what medicine was teaching because he'd been taught to question the system. He'd been taught to question authority by his parents. That led him on a long journey that brought him to the United States, which started having him integrate all sorts of things that he had seen along the way and to create really his own approach to the practice of medicine and eventually launching a super successful wellness center in New York City. He's become a multi-time author and kind of a revolutionary and an activist now in the space of what it means to be well,

what it means to practice medicine in the United States and beyond. Really loved this conversation that traced his journey, his roots through South Africa and his experiences that really formed him and his lens on modern medicine. We also go into some of the big discoveries, the really big curiosities, the sort of pushing the envelope side of medicine today and where he thinks it's going. So excited to share this conversation with you. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg.

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making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, Charge time and actual results will vary. Studio downtown. 2001. You saw what Sonic Yoga was. Yeah, 2001. Yeah. 15 years. That's amazing. Man, if you look at the state of how things have changed in your world and the world, it's pretty profound. And then on the other hand, so much has stayed the same.

So as we sit here, I want to talk about who you are and what your work is. You run this really tremendous, did you call it a medical center? A wellness center. A wellness center, yeah, in New York City. But not what most people would think of traditionally. And I want to deconstruct that a little bit, but I want to take a step back in time.

As many of you can, our listeners will hear, that you can tell right away, you're probably not from New York City or Brooklyn. Come on, I've been here. I'm in New York. I've been here for 32 years. Right. You've actually been in the city longer than me. You grew up under apartheid, which was not just, I mean, there was literally, you know, blacks lived in one place. You know, there was a complete separation illegally. But it like also, from what I know of you, you grew up in a family that didn't quite accept that.

Yeah. So I was, in a way, a little bit unusual. I grew up in a very left-wing family, which was not that unusual, but fairly unusual for South Africa. Both my parents were actually members of the Communist Party before it got banned in South Africa. So they were part of the Mandela and his group. They were all friendly. And in fact, most of their friends actually got jailed or left South Africa when Mandela was jailed, but they stayed on. And so I grew up in an unusual family. And, you know, I didn't really appreciate it that much at the time. I didn't really know any different.

But now, you know, when I look back as I got older, it was interesting. Yeah. Were your friends, I mean, were sort of the social group at your level part of that same group of sort of more activists, more? No. No. So my parents' friends were, but my school friends were not. So that's why it was a little bit hard for me because I was sort of a little bit odd. My family was a little bit odd for those times.

But they had a community. And as I got to college, it got easier because at college there was a big activist movement. So you find your tribe. So it was easier at college to find people my age who were more active in the anti-apartheid movement. In fact, a lot of the students at Vidvarasarand University were pretty active in the anti-apartheid movement. So I think when I was smaller, it was harder.

But as, you know, when I was 18 and going to college, you know, the majority of us were, or a lot of us were. Yeah. When was this in the context? I'm trying to remember when Mandela was actually jailed. So, you know, he was jailed in 60 or, so he was in jail all the time. So he was just this figurehead for us. We weren't allowed to read anything about him, although we had some books at home that had been brought in from overseas. So we just knew about this guy in jail, but we didn't really know that much about him.

And he only got released in 90-something, so I'd left already. I never believed that change would come. So there's hope for America, too, with this Trump. Yeah, I mean, looking back at what happened there, it was so interesting, because growing up here, I didn't study it. I had no exposure to it. I didn't know what was going on. And I first learned who Mandela was in a really bizarre way. There was a band. I call it the Specials.

Yes. Right. This legendary song, Freeman Nelson Mandela. And it was the strangest thing. I was living out in eastern Long Island in the Hamptons one summer, painting houses for walking around money. And my housemate starts playing this music. I'm like, what is that? I love that song. Like this phenomenal beat.

And he's telling me about it. And then I'm like, who's Nelson Mandela? And the thought to me that somebody in their early 20s in this country could have no concept of who this man was is bizarre at this point. Yeah. Well, I think Europeans knew more about South Africa, especially the Brits, because it was an ex-British colony, than Americans. Americans didn't know much about South Africa. I think they know a little bit more now, but in those days they didn't. But we weren't allowed to, you know, we weren't allowed to know anything about him, too.

So he was kept out of the textbooks and everything like that? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was a very interesting upbringing we had. You know, you're forced to educate, you know, what they taught you. Many things were banned, although you could get educate, you know, what they taught you. Many things were banned, although you could get things, you know, when you went overseas. But if they caught it at the airport,

they'd confiscate it. Certain music was banned. There was only, we didn't have TV. I'm 63, so I was born in 54. I think TV came in probably the 70s. So we grew up without any TV. And then when it started, it was just one station that was government approved. So it was interesting.

I mean, it was good actually growing up without TV. But it was a very interesting way to grow up. But what I really appreciate about my upbringing was I was always taught to question authority. And that's really helped me in my medical training too. So I think part of why I went to where I went to in medicine had to do with the way I grew up in South Africa. Because you sort of knew that the system was rotten. You knew it. It wasn't, you know, just so obvious. And it became very obvious soon after my medical training that the medical system was also rotten.

It was an easy leap for me. And I have the same feeling I have in medicine that I had sort of growing up in South Africa when everything is so obviously not right, but everyone's walking around as if it's normal and not talking about it or doing that much. Not that no one's doing much, but in medicine, I have the same feeling. It's so obviously off base. Not that all medicine's bad, but it's so obviously off base and these doctors are walking around as if there's nothing wrong with it.

How I felt about the medical system here is how I felt growing up in South Africa. It's obviously wrong. I mean, it's just common sense. Wake up. When are you going to wake up? Yeah. So I actually really appreciate growing up in South Africa for many reasons. But those are two of the reasons.

And South Africa is actually a beautiful country, lovely people. So it's, you know, I appreciate it. Yeah. You did your medical training there. Yeah. So in South Africa, because of apartheid, you either had to choose a black hospital. You know, so our training was during medical school, you went to white hospitals, you went to black hospitals. That was part of the training. As a general rule, the black hospitals

there was a lot of volume and you did more practical stuff because they didn't have the staff. And in the white hospitals it was a bit more sophisticated, more tested. Two completely different types of medicine. And then after medical school, when I had to do an internship, you could choose to either work in a black hospital or work in a white hospital because they weren't mixed. And I chose to work in the black hospital. I just loved, you know, the South African blacks

are just the most lovely, warm people, and I just felt very comfortable working. And so I actually worked in my internship in Soweto. I mean, I did my internship at Baragwanath Hospital. Me and my wife, we had just got married. We actually lived at the hospital. Right, which is outside of Johannesburg. Just outside of Johannesburg.

It's what they call, Soweto sounds for southwestern township. They used to put blacks in these areas and call it a township. It's just crazy what went on. But anyway, so that was actually my first exposure to non-traditional medicine was working at Baragwanath in the black hospitals because when we couldn't help patients, the family used to call in the sangoma, the traditional healer. And I saw sometimes that the sangoma would help patients that we couldn't help, not always. And that was sort of the first thing that piqued my interest because I saw here are people that I can't help and they're bringing these crazy, we used to call them witch doctors, and they're actually helping people.

It's something that sort of started piquing my interest, not that I believed that they even did anything, but it started piquing my interest. And then after I finished my internship, I went to work in the bush in a hospital in the middle of the, in Kwandabele, which is the homeland. And the same thing happened. I got exposed to which is the homeland. And the same thing happened. I got exposed to traditional healers again, and the same thing happened. I started noticing that they were helping patients that we weren't helping.

So not that I knew anything about African medicine, but it really was interesting to see that something that I was sort of not taught officially, but taught that was nonsense. It wasn't scientific. It's nonsense. It's all in your head, et cetera, et cetera. So it was great. So because I was taught to question the system, because I saw these witch doctors helping patients, it was sort of an easy journey for me in a way.

It wasn't – I never have to struggle about it. Yeah. And from there, from what I remember, we talked about this a long time ago, because you went back into sort of like private practice, serving a completely different population after that. Exactly. So I was working in the bush, which was an unbelievable experience. And then I came back to work in a private practice in Johannesburg while I was waiting for papers to come to America because we had decided we didn't want to live in Johannesburg. He used to actually see all the detainees. Very left-wing GP. A very cool guy. But he used to see not only the detainees, he used to see a lot of the artsy community in South Africa. In Johannesburg, not South Africa. So people were coming in and they were coming in with problems that I couldn't really help. They were coming in with different problems that I

was training at the hospital. They were coming in with headaches and I couldn't really help. They were coming with different problems that I was training at the hospital. They were coming with headaches and they couldn't poop and they were tired and things that we don't get taught in the hospital because in the hospital you're treating really acutely ill patients. They're coming with these problems and I couldn't really help them but then they would say to me, well I went to the acupuncturist, there was one acupuncturist in Johannesburg and he helped me. Or I went to the homeopath, and you know what? I took these remedies, and I'm feeling better. So this is another second experience where people I couldn't help were going to see these quacks, or what I thought were quacks, homeopaths and acupuncturists,

and these patients were saying, well, I got better. So these were all good things for me, because it made me question the way I got trained. So I started realizing that, you know, well, actually I didn't realize at the time. When I look back, I was probably questioning, but I started realizing how deficient my training was and maybe there are these other modalities and other medicines that could work for people.

So, you know, my journey was really, really organic modalities and other medicines that could work for people. So, you know, my journey was really, really organic. And then we emigrated. And to get a license in New York, I had to do three years in an internal medicine residency. And a hospital in the South Bronx had sponsored me for a green card because this was 1984. Which was an interesting time to be in the South Bronx. Well, that's how I got in because American doctors didn't want to go work there. I mean, that was brutal.

That was sort of like the epidemic in New York City. So I was lucky because I went for an interview and the guy, I didn't even really realize what the South Bronx was. I mean, what did I know? The guy took a liking to me and he offered me a job with a green card. And obviously I'm going to take it.

Actually, a lawyer had sent me there because she was an ex-South African who knew that this guy liked South African doctors, and that's how you could get a green card. I could do it that way. I could go to an academic institution and take four years, and it would be much more difficult. So I took the job in the South Bronx, which was an unbelievable experience. As you know, it was a really interesting time. And because I was not American and naive, I didn't even know how to be scared there. I remember I used to take the subway at all hours of the day and night

and walk through the area. I didn't even know. I knew no difference. I mean, I wouldn't do it now if I knew difference. You know what I mean? But I was so naive. And nothing ever happened to me. But I had no fear, not because.

You just didn't know better. Exactly. Because, I mean, at that time, the South Bronx, that was the center of the crack epidemic. It was very dangerous. A lot of gangs around there also. Yeah. I mean, did you feel that there was any similarity in Soweto and the South Bronx?

Big time, big time. So that was quite interesting because while I was doing internal meds on the trauma unit when I was in the emergency room, we saw sort of similar things. There were more gunshot wounds maybe in the South Bronx and more knife-stabbing wounds in Soweto, but it was a similar type of environment.

So it was actually adjusted pretty well. Yeah. Yeah. Except you didn't have the, quote, rich doctors to come in when. Yeah. Yeah. But here's a really funny story. When I first started in South Africa, as a sign of respect to the nurses, the senior nurses were called sisters. You were a nurse and then you were a sister and you used

to call them sister. So I just started my job and I'm working in the ward and most of the nurses were black. And I'm saying sister this and sister that. And one of the Jamaican nurses pulls me aside and she says, Doc, I know you come from South Africa and I know in Jamaica we also call the nurses sister, but you shouldn't call the nurses sister. Oh, so you're doing it in the South Bronx? Yeah. So I'm quite, you know, so when I realized... You can't see right now, but your face is sort of turning beet red. I mean, it was – yeah. It was quite – yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So – but it was – yeah, it was very similar. It was very similar to South Africa. And, I mean, I had unbelievable experience at Lincoln Hospital in the South Bronx. I learned a lot. But I was – you know, what happened was when I started my residency, and after a couple of weeks, I realized I didn't want to be a doctor in America because in South Africa, we didn't have the money to do lots of tests.

We had to take a good history, examine a patient. There was a lot of communication, relationships. Even in the black hospitals, we just couldn't afford to do standard tests. In America, the way we got taught is the patient comes in, you do an EKG, you do an X-ray, you take the bloods, you go study up on the case, and the next morning you present it to the professor. So it's like immediately they just become a chart. Exactly. There's very little interaction. You don't have to examine them, but there's very little interaction.

And the part of medicine I really liked was the relationships. And you learn about people. It's lovely. So I was very disillusioned. And I said to my wife, this is not for me. I don't want to be a doctor. And there happened to be an acupuncture clinic about six blocks from the hospital, which they were doing detox. And they were part of the hospital because

they were doing detox for a lot of the crack and heroin addicts, and they were making the hospital a lot of money. And it actually was working to a certain extent. They had AA programs and this acupuncture detox in the setting. Before I had left South Africa, the doctor I worked with, you know, and I told him I'm really interested in homeopathy, he said, he gave me a book called The Barefoot Doctor's Manual. He said, you should go study acupuncture. I really think there's something to this acupuncture.

I'd never really thought about acupuncture, but I heard about this acupuncture clinic, so I went to check it out. And this is after a couple of weeks into my residency and I walked into the room and it's a room, there are about 40, 50 addicts sitting quietly with needles in their ears. And you're walking into this burnt out building and you're looking at the same patients you're seeing in the wards and addicts, and especially these crack addicts are pretty rough and they're pulling out their IVs. They're very difficult to deal with.

They're either withdrawing and they're tough. And you walk into this burnt-out building and you see 40, 50 addicts sitting quietly with needles in their ears. And I went, holy shit, this is really interesting. I want to learn more about this. So I went upstairs to the guy, Mike Smith, who ran the clinic and I told him who I was, and we got chatting.

And he was really gracious, and he said, yeah, you can come, you know, you can spend as much time as you want here. You can learn acupuncture, and, you know, we'd love to have you around. And he was just lovely to me. He was just so happy there was a doctor interested in wanting to learn acupuncture. So during my residency, I'd go back and forth between the hospital and the acupuncture clinic and just notice what was going on and started learning a little bit of acupuncture. And after a while, you realized, you know, what I realized, it took maybe a year or two during my residency, but I realized that at the hospital, and what Western medicine does is fantastic for acute care and emergency care, and when you break a bone and when you need surgery. They're not particularly good at the chronic problems, you know, the same problems I saw at the private practice in Johannesburg.

People are tired, and they've got irritable bowel syndrome, and they've got headaches. Those same patients were going to the acupuncture clinic because they were getting acupuncture for free, basically. So I saw that these people that we couldn't really help at the hospital were actually being helped at the clinic. So it was really obvious for me to see that, you know, I saw it, you know, 1985, 1986, that the future of medicine would, in those days, i thought would be a combination of western medicine and eastern medicine and so i started you know going to the clinic until i finished my residency and spending more and more time there learning acupuncture and that is the beginning of this journey but it was the beauty of this was the way it happened to me it was never

it just sort of happened it just sort of opened up in front of me and it was so obvious it happened to me, it was never, it just sort of happened. It just sort of opened up in front of me and it was so obvious. It wasn't that I had just, it was never a struggle. Yeah, it was just you kept following threads. Yeah. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

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We need him! Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. Yeah. And it's interesting too because at that time, you know, acupuncture is known widely now in the US. But then it was this kind of weird, fringy thing that wasn't accepted or all over the place the way it is now. Although I wonder, do you feel that even now, acupuncture is certainly much more part of the mainstream conversation? Do you feel like it's accepted? To a certain extent.

You know, I think doctors generally are, they just don't get it. They're so brainwashed to think that, you know, the only way is with drugs or surgery. But even with doctors, I see things changing. I mean, definitely the culture as a whole has accepted it. I think the medical system always takes the longest to get it. But even then, I think they're starting to get it. But they don't really see the sophistication of acupuncture and the sophistication of a lot of these techniques and modalities. They still sort of look down a little bit on it. It's not science.

But, yeah, I think it's changed a lot. In those days, it was crazy. But I will say the people, especially in the Chinese medicine community, the nutrition community, wherever I dabbled, people sort of brought me in with open arms. The people were so gracious that a doctor, they were so happy that a doctor was interested

in learning this. And they were just really open to teach me whatever I wanted. It was lovely. I mean, in those days, it's probably changed a little bit now that the alternative community was just so open and embracing. Yeah. I mean, it must have been interesting, too, because you were very much sort of like you must have been a bit of an anomaly then. Here's a South African doc working in the South Bronx who's also saying, wow, I'm completely open to the fact that there's something else going on here and teach me. So your exposure was really just through years of interacting with this and then learning from the people how to bring this into it.

When it came time to leave Lincoln, what precipitated that and what were you thinking was the next step for you? So what happened was I was very lucky. Because of my training in South Africa, because I used to take a really good history and examine people properly, the professors sort of realized they respected that and they asked me to be chief resident in my third year. So I said to them, I'll be chief resident if you let me do three months in psychiatry

because the acupuncture clinic was attached to the psychiatry department. They didn't know I was going to go to the acupuncture clinic. So in my final year, I did three months at the acupuncture clinic and really got a good training in acupuncture. Because in New York in those days, as a medical doctor, you only needed, I think, 300 hours. So when I finished my residency, I was already able to practice acupuncture. And a friend of mine had introduced me to a doctor who knew another doctor who ran a clinic on the Lower East Side.

They were interested in the Patansas Health Unit. They were interested in the Patansas Health Unit. They were interested in alternative medicine. And I met her and she brought me on to do some acupuncture as well as do general medicine. So I started my first job out of my residency was on the Lower East Side, starting to do acupuncture. Which again, the Lower East Side then, now it's for those who don't know New York, like now it's kind of like a very hip kind of place to be. But back then this was sort of, I don't even know if it would be considered, you know, a step above in terms of the drug scene and the safety from the South Bronx back then. No, it was a step above. It was very Latina, Hispanic.

Ah, no kidding. But very Hispanic family. So this would have been late 80s? This is 87. Okay, yeah. It was kidding. But very Hispanic family. So this would have been late 80s? This is 87. Okay, yeah. It was actually... It was starting to... Yeah, it was... It wasn't...

No, the South Bronx was rough. When I realized how rough it was, the Lower East Side was poorish, but it wasn't... It was a lot of... Most of our clients at Batonsas were actually... It was for the Hispanic, local Hispanic community. And then because I was doing acupuncture and because the clinic took Medicaid, I got a name in the HIV community. So a lot of the HIV guys who wanted to come and get acupuncture as part of, you know,

as part of what they were doing started coming to see me. And then I had gotten friendly or I'd met someone, Abdi Asadi, who's a wonderful acupuncturist also in New York. And I'd met him at Lincoln Hospital and I brought him on there and we started doing this really interesting stuff with AIDS patients. We started teaching them Qigong. We started experimenting with all these different modalities with a lot of the AIDS patients who were open to it and they had medicates. They weren't paying for it.

So we started doing a lot of dabbling in nutrition and herbs and qigong and acupuncture. It was a lot of fun. I mean, and, you know, the lovely patients open, letting us try different things. So it was very interesting. It was like a living laboratory, basically. And what's interesting, too, is because you're going from, that's an acute patient. Were you seeing that sort of like the qigong and the acupuncture and the complementary modalities were actually moving the needle?

Well, yeah, I think there were definitely, you know, a lot of the patients or some of the patients we were seeing didn't want to do the drugs in those days. What do they call them? Antiviral. Yeah, retrovirals. This was just the beginning when they were starting the retrovirals. So there were a lot of patients who didn't want to do them. There were patients who had come in and would have side effects.

But I think a lot of the – the gay patient was just so open to trying different things. And, you know, we were teaching them. Now, Abdi had been doing Tai Chi for many years. So he was teaching them Qigong and meditation. And then there was a nutritionist at the clinic who was fantastic, who we were learning from. So we all sort of got together and started creating this little holistic center. It was great. And once again, all happened organically.

We were just there and doing it. And a lot of them old hippies. I mean, a lot of when I look at all my old teachers in acupuncture and nutrition who are older than me, I'm 63, so they're not a generation, but five, ten years older. All old hippies. It was interesting. Most of them were hippies who got into the stuff and started practicing it. Right. I mean, how amazing to have sort of all different traditions come together and to have everyone be open to the validation of everybody else's lens.

It was fantastic. It was really wonderful times. And we were all exploring. It was new for all of us. So it was interesting, yeah. So you're growing this. And it sounds like you're just learning incredibly. And really, probably it sounds like you're also really loving who you're collaborating with and creating this with what's um what's happening in your mind in terms of what how you're feeling about medicine and where you want to go with it at that point

right great great question because what was happening to me then was i struggling to to articulate the different world views because you know I had a strong Western medicine training, so I saw the body from a Western physician. And then I had this Chinese medicine training, which the language is completely different. You're talking about heat rising and dampness, and the language is completely, you're looking at the body completely differently.

And in the beginning, I had to wear two hats. I couldn't, you know, just either I had to look at it in this lens or in that lens. So that was my struggle until I met Jeffrey Bland in 1989, who's the father of functional medicine. And the nutritionist Susan Luck at Betanza said to me, it was in 88 or 89, she said you've got to go listen to this guy. He's brilliant. You'll love him. So he was in New York talking. I went to hear him speak and talk about an aha experience because he was actually articulating Chinese medicine from a

Western perspective. He had taken the philosophy of Chinese medicine about improving function and creating balance, and he was using the Western biochemistry and physiology and talking the Western medicine language, but from a Chinese perspective. And it was such a hallelujah for me to hear this guy articulate what I'd been struggling to try to put together. So when I heard Jeff Bland talk, that was it for me, because to actually put it together for me like that, because that was what I was struggling with for those couple of years,

trying to put it together,, trying to put it together. And he had put it together. So he was a mind opener for me. And after I met Jeff, everything became much easier for me. You know, I got much clearer and I was able to sort of really put these things together. Yeah, it's like he gave you a new language. Yeah. Did you end up studying or working with him?

Yeah. So I've known Jeff since then. And every time he's in New York and I've become quite friendly with him. So yeah, and then the whole functional medicine movement sort of grew in the sort of 90s. So I was sort of part of that. So yeah, I've been friendly with Jeff for ages. And then I was also very lucky to have an unbelievable yoga teacher who sort of helped me sort of understand where yoga fits in.

You know, Lindsay Clennell is one of the senior Iyengar teachers. He's just a brilliant, he's like a mentor to me on every level. Just a brilliant guy. And he sort of helped me articulate or understand where yoga fits in and the fascia. And because he sees, he just also has a really good understanding of the human condition in general. But I started fitting in acupuncture and yoga and the fascia because you don't learn anything about the fascia in functional medicine or in Western medicine. And then I had fantastic Chinese medicine teachers. So I was just very, very blessed to have these amazing teachers who I ended up becoming friendly with,

who were just all these lovely, beautiful older guys who were so open to teaching. You said a number of times now that you feel very blessed to have had this person or this person, this person. And I guess one of the things that I wonder is, is it that, because it seems like you just at every turn, you were finding someone else with another piece of the puzzle for you. Exactly, yeah. And at the same time, how many other people were bumping into these same potential teachers who weren't open to sort of stepping into that space of beginner's mind and validating what they had to offer? You know, is the blessing to a certain extent that even though you were established, you were a physician, you were well-trained, you continued to hold yourself open to the possibility that there was so much more that you didn't know and accepted almost anybody as a teacher? Could be.

I mean, yeah, I think I was so thirsty for knowledge and trying to put it all together because I knew what I had learned was limited. And then you're seeing a patient and you just something's happening in the way you talk to understand it just doesn't jive um so you know in those days i'm jaded now but in those days i was just so open to learning you know just trying to discover and you know i was finding myself i was finding um you know works, what helps my patients. I was in such an interesting phase of my life. Just to say, it's very exciting.

I was just so caught up in it. Yeah. So you started to go down the functional medicine route. Yeah. But that's how you stayed. So I went down the functional medicine path, but I was bringing in Chinese medicine and the yoga and all of this stuff together. Because I don't think of you as a classic functional medicine guy. No, no, no.

No, I'm not. I'm not. But I think as, you know, I've had so many talks with Jeff about this, because even how the functional medicine movement started, they had to create an operating system if they wanted to teach doctors. Same in yoga. It's the same. You've got to create a system to teach the next generation or to teach teachers or doctors. So they had to create an operating system.

But I think any of the real wise functional medicine doctors are way beyond functional medicine. Functional medicine is a system to work within, but they get that there's much more. But you need that system to train people. We should also probably just, for those listening who've never heard the phrase functional medicine. What is it?

Yeah, like a 60- functional medicine what is it yeah like a 60 second what is this well functional medicine is uh is to me anyway the true combination of of western medicine and eastern medicine it takes the language of western medicine and biochemistry and the physiology and it uses the language of chinese medicine of how how do we improve function, how do we create balance, because in Western medicine we don't think like that. So functional medicine is really, well, now we look at it as how do you look for the underlying cause of some dysfunction? Because in Western medicine, if you have a symptom,

there's some underlying problem that's causing the symptom. But in Western medicine, we go for that symptom. Like if you're driving your car and the oil light goes on, you put a bandaid of the symptom. So the symptom becomes a problem that you need to suppress. Functional medicine, we're seeing the symptom as a symptom of some underlying disorder, and you need to try to work out what that underlying disorder is and ultimately what the cause of that is. So functional medicine is a system that helps us try, work out what that underlying cause of the problem is.

In my experience, and tell me if this is wrong also, from the outside looking in, it's also been my experience that, you know, functional medicine feels more whole. It treats the body and the mind as an integrated feedback mechanism, as an integrated system, rather than points of inflammation. So in Western medicine, we divide everything into different body parts. Even in the hospital, you have the rheumatology department and the cardiology department. The body is divided into different parts. In holistic medicine, integrative medicine, functional medicine as well, everything is connected.

It's this web. So what goes on in your gut is going to affect your moods. If you have joint pains, it's actually also often coming from your gut. So there's this web that connects everything. And you've got to try to sort out what's influencing this web. But yes, it's more holistic. Body parts aren't broken down into separate parts. Everything works together. Right. It's sort of like if you come in and something's hurt or bothering you or causing pain, that a functional medicine doc is going to look at everything that's going on

and ask you questions where you're probably going to be like, no, no, no, doc, I came to you because I have pain here. I don't need to tell you. Have you had that response? No, it happens all the time, yeah. But what I will say is in these days, people are so much more sophisticated. I mean, in the last five to 10 years, it's so interesting what's happening. Patients are so much more sophisticated and have a much better understanding of what's going on.

Yeah. So interesting. So you take medicine and then you sort of explore this world of functional medicine. But like you said, then, the docs have been doing this for a while, you start to go beyond, you start to integrate all different modalities. And it seems like what you're doing now, you know, eventually, you moved on, and you developed your own wellness center, where people literally travel from around the world to come and see you do you find that um it seems like one of the big things that's going on these days um is that people are walking around with quote non-specific pain with with

diseases and illnesses and suffering um that increasingly it's not this acute thing although it may evolve to be acute but it's really having an impact on quality of life and it feels like this is the area the graze on that very often sort of the traditional approach to medicine just kind of says we're not sure but what you're the work you're doing is where you sort of step in and start exactly so this is what we call these people the walking wounded or the worried well. They're not sick enough to be in a hospital. Their blood tests may not even be abnormal. But they're suffering. And so this is an area that Western medicine is particularly weak for. And this is an area that

what I do and functional medicine in general is particularly good for. And I'd say functional medicine in general is particularly good for. And I'd say, and maybe this is the type of patient that's attracted to me, a lot of, I'd say, at least 60% of people I see, the problem starts in the gut. And what's very interesting in Chinese medicine, you learn that the gut is the center. When the gut is off, everything goes off. I got taught early on that if you don't know what's going on, treat the gut. So in the elements, in the five elements, the gut is the earth element. And I always remember my

Chinese medicine teachers talking about the gut as a center and treating the gut. And I remember studying with, when I was at the acupuncture school here in New York, Mark Seam School, there was a guy, Simon Mills, an herbalist from England who ran the herbal school. He used to come and teach us and he used to always say, in all traditions, if you don't know what to do, they teach you, you treat the gut first. And what we're finding out now with the latest science and what we do in functional medicine, a lot of times you're treating the gut, the microbiome and leaky gut as a source of problems. And with the way we're eating and with all the antibiotics in the food and all the GMOs, we're damaging our microbiome and our gut. So it's very interesting, this full circle and how we're now

understanding it from a sort of Western scientific perspective, what a lot of cultures have sort of, in a way, have spoken about for centuries. Yeah, and what's so interesting, too, is that it was probably in the early days, going back 15 years now, I think you may have been the person that introduced me to the phrase leaky gut a long, long time ago. And it was this weird thing, like, what? And now it's not only accepted to a large extent, but it's being studied fiercely. And now we have a fancier name.

It's the microbiome instead of the gut. And people are sequencing the DNA of the microbiota. And it's this fierce field of study. Yeah, it's like the hottest area of research in Western medicine is this microbiome. I'm intrigued. I love it. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

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Flight risk. But, you know, the problem with the Western perspective, they're so narrow. They can't see the – they don't see the big picture. They're always trying to study a small part of this big part. That's still wonderful. I think it's wonderful that they're doing the studies. But clinically, it's not necessarily helping the patients yet. For instance, fecal transplants

is always interesting to talk about, which I think should be much more readily available. They're not expensive and they could be helping a lot of patients. It's a really easy way to get billions and billions of bacteria into someone, trillions of bacteria actually. It's hard to get it through, and different strains, it's hard to get it with probiotics. Probiotics are helpful, but if someone has a really screwed up microbiome, a fecal transplant is fantastic. You can't even get one done in America unless

you've had infections with the C. diff, which is an organism, for three times. So it's an interesting thing that something that they sort of know is effective, you know, I'm not sure why they're waiting. My sense is just the idea of, you know, those two words. Poop in a pill. Right, poop in a pill. It's just so socially just bizarre and weird. But I love it. I mean, here's something that could be cheap and effective. I mean, you don't have to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for a drug.

It's not going to, you know, if it's done properly and checked, it's not going to necessarily harm you. I mean, you see, I've always been intrigued by sort of free or cheap, simple treatments that can, you know, we have such an expensive medical system. So I think fecal transplants are going to be much more relevant in the next couple of years because I'll probably see a couple of people a week who I think would do well with a fecal transplant but I have nowhere to send them. Some go to London but it's hard to

get them. It's from what I remember such a complete neophyte with this but I remember actually hearing or reading a report that said that for certain conditions, it's almost 100% curate when everything else fails. Is ulcerative colitis one of those? Or was it something else? It was for C. diff when someone has this infection, which is really difficult to treat. Which I've actually had in the past and is horrendous. Yeah. So the only way they'll do it here in the States, although I think it's slowly changing, is you have to have C. diff three times before they'll actually.

Oh, my God. Yeah. But, you know, it's helping for a lot of autoimmune problems, rheumatoid arthritis, all sorts of things that they are finding it's helping for because it's helping the gut, and the gut is a source of the problem. Right. What's actually going, how is it a source of the problem? Is it its relationship with inflammation? Is it something else? Okay, so this is great to understand. So the gut, the lining of the gut is just one cell thick for most of it. One cell thick. So it's much, much thinner than your skin. And that's your protective barrier against a lot of the external world. All the food you're eating, you know, before you poop it out,

your body, the barrier between the food and everything you're putting into your mouth, the barrier is one cell thick for a lot of it between that food and your body. So when that gets damaged, when the cells aren't locked in properly, you get either food, byproducts of food particles going through, toxins going through, they leak through, that's why it's called leaky gut.

It goes through this permeable wall and into your bloodstream and then it becomes systemic because the blood takes it to the liver and then it goes to your heart and goes to the rest of your body. So a lot of systemic inflammation, a lot of skin problems, actually the problems are in the gut.

So I believe probably the biggest source of inflammation is a gut problem. So the two aspects of the gut you need to understand is this leaky gut and when the lining gets damaged or perforated, you have these toxins and chemicals and food byproducts going through into your system. And the other big aspect of the gut is this microbiome, which is this collection of all these bacteria in your gut. So we've all been taught bacteria are bad, but we have trillions and trillions of bacteria in your gut, most of which are actually good for you. And when you get an imbalance, when you have too many bad guys

as opposed to good guys, you create a problem which then will actually cause a leaky gut. And because of that, you once again get these toxins and particles going through. And the way we eat, you know, all the sugary foods, you know, a lot of the processed foods, the antibiotics in our foods, the GMOs. GMOs because they sprayed with, probably because they sprayed with glyphosate,

which is an herbicide, which is also a registered antibiotic. So a lot of the foods that people are just eating without realizing are actually affecting their balance of good and bad bacteria, then damaging their gut, and then you have these problems going through the gut wall and becoming systemic problems. And I'd say at least 60, 70% of patients I see who are coming with autoimmune problems or arthritis or skin problems or even fatigue, all sorts of problems, often even anxiety and depression. The problem is in the gut. And you treat the gut and people aren't anxious anymore.

You treat the gut and their autoimmune problems get better. So it's really interesting. Okay. I want to deconstruct that last part especially because I think when most people listen to this, they can bridge the gap between, okay, so I get it. The gut is a cell thick in certain points. It's easy to become permeable. Stuff can pass through, go into your bloodstream and cause inflammation because then it's just kind of floating all around your body.

And that causes pain, illness, all sorts of other stuff. But that last bit, which I know there's been some really interesting research on over the last few years, is that around the state of your microbiome actually affecting the state of your mind. I think that's a bigger jump for people to make. Okay, so this is really easy to explain. So the first thing is the gut is also called the second brain. All the chemicals made in your brain, all the neurotransmitters, the serotonin, which is the antidepressant neurotransmitter, there's more serotonin actually made in your gut than made in your brain. So all those chemicals that we associate with moods and anxiety and depression that are made in your brain are actually made in your gut too. That's why the gut is called the second brain.

And there's a direct highway between the gut. There's a physical highway between the gut and the brain. It's called the vagus nerve. And so a lot of these chemicals are either going through the bloodstream to the brain or going through this highway from your gut to your brain. So gut feelings are real. So a lot of these chemicals that could be made in your gut going straight to your brain. So, I mean, it's very complicated. I'm simplifying it. But there is a direct connection.

And so I'd say a lot of mood problems that I see or people come in anxious and you treat their gut or people come in depressed. Now, these are complicated issues. I'm not saying it's all the gut. Of course. But often when you treat the gut, a lot of these issues get better. I mean, it's, you know, and this is how I've always learned. When I see something happening, you know, because I'm a good observer. One of the things I do is listen and observe. When you see something happening all the time, you try, you're always trying to work out why it's happening, which has happened long ago.

And now we're sort of understanding why all these weird things that never used to make sense that you see clinically are actually happening. And we actually can understand why they're happening. So it's very exciting. Yeah. And it's so interesting, too, because I know if I'm stressed out, I feel that in my gut. Yes. It goes both ways. Exactly.

Right. And that made sense to me. But I never really thought about it going the other way, too. Both ways. Exactly. It's fast. It's wild. It really is.

In fact, there are more and more psychiatrists because I sort of read a lot and post a lot on my Facebook. There are more and more psychiatrists who are saying people should not get anti-anxiety drugs or anti-depressant drugs before they treat their guts. So even the psychiatrists are getting it. Right.

It's interesting. How do you, I guess one big lingering question is if your microbiome, if your gut is off, if it's not in balance, if it's not healthy and positive, beyond a fecal transplant, poop and a pill. We hear probiotics thrown around. Is that the primary way to do it? Is it food? Is it lifestyle? All of the above. Yeah. Because this is also really interesting, and this is why I think this holistic perspective is so helpful.

We know that exercise affects your microbiome. We know that stress, sleep, all these factors, food, everything seems to work together. How do you treat it? First of all, unfortunately, there's no real accurate testing for this. Sometimes you can pick up a parasite, but the testing at the moment, although there are more and more companies coming out. At Revitalize, I think they had uBiome. There are more and more of these companies coming out with these kits that are testing the

microbiome. I think it's very early, and I think that's for the future, but I don't think there's a company that really has it down well yet. It's just a matter of time. So theoretically, in time, we'll be able to test someone's poop and see, oh, you don't have enough of this bacteria. You have too many of these guys. And you can target the treatment. At the moment, we're sort of guessing. So you guess by giving some different strains of good bacteria, the probiotic.

I use a lot of herbal antibiotics. I use herbs. I have a wonderful formula that often treats common bad guys. We often give antifungals, herbs, or sometimes even drugs, which kill, you know, sometimes yeast is one of those bad guys that can overgrow. So you're sort of killing the bad guys, giving the good guys, and changing people's diets so that they don't affect the microbiome so much. You often encourage fermented foods because that's a good source of probiotics.

You recommend foods that feed the good bacteria. So I always tell people eat stalks and stems because the fiber is what you don't digest properly and that's what feeds the good bacteria too. So those are the things you do clinically and you see how people respond because we don't really have great tests at the moment to delineate exactly how each person gets treated. But that's where it's going. It's fascinating. I think it's hopeful too.

Very hopeful. My sense is that so many people who've been walking around and maybe have been told for years, deal with it. Take some NSAIDs, take whatever it is, and you're getting older. This happens when you get older. It seems like we're just starting to turn a corner where maybe that's not going to be the answer in the very near future for most people. So this is going to sound like a plug, and in a way it's a plug, but what I've done is I've created this cleanse, which actually is not a traditional cleanse, but it cleans out the gut so i created this so i started doing this in my office where i used to give these herbs that clean out the gut probiotics and then put people on a diet which took out all the pro-inflammatory foods and actually had people have shakes which had nutrients to help the liver and i saw how well it works in my office. And then I started putting it online without even seeing patients. And the results have been unbelievable.

So it's just completely people don't even, I don't even have to know them. They just try to do this for two weeks. They change their diet, stop sugar, stop the grains, take the pills in there, which are herbal antibiotics, often take probiotics too. And it's unbelievable how different so many people feel. You know, we get letters. It's incredible. So it's actually not that difficult to change, you know. And as you said, so many people are walking around suffering unnecessarily.

And it's not, you know, I've trained a lot of health coaches now because I work closely with my health coaches. And I'm more confident with my, if I had a patient or some people call and there was a choice to see a health coach with certain problems or a doctor, to me it's not even a choice. Because doctors are missing a whole piece of the pie here. It's like the metaphor people use, it's no use looking for your keys just under the light. I find a lot of doctors, you know, they're looking under where the light's shining, but the keys are somewhere in the dark. So they're only looking in that one area and they're missing the point. And especially with these gastrointestinal problems or a lot of these microbiome-related

problems. Yeah, that makes so much sense. So as you are kind of looking at where you are now and looking forward, what's really exciting? You're one of the most curious people I know. So you're constantly poking around. What's the burning question for you right now? Is there a place where you're just deeply fascinated? Well, definitely the microbiome. But I'm fascinated with this whole how wellness is permeating the culture and what's being called wellness and that and

what's healthy. And I want to get more involved with sort of getting the message out in a responsible way to audiences that I would never touch with what I do. You know, what I do may be a little bit too different. So I'm intrigued by how can we start incorporating all these wonderful things I've learned and you've learned over the years. Why isn't everyone doing it?

Everyone should be doing it. It's like they're no-brainers. So I'm sort of really interested in that part of how do you get this message out in different ways to different constituencies. Yeah, which is kind of the perfect place to come full circle also because a lot of what you're doing is sort of leading edge. And at the same time, it's not accessible to a lot of populations, especially if we come full circle to kind of like back where you started.

Talk to me about that a little bit. I think that's a big issue. So I struggle with that because what I do is for very upper class. I mean, you know, it's elitist, and it shouldn't be. And a lot of the stuff we're teaching people is how to eat more healthily, how to meditate, going to yoga, things that don't cost money. So, yeah, this is what I think about a lot. How can we actually get this message out to populations that either can't afford it or wouldn't know

much about it. And I think it's possible. I think there's always a cultural aspect to it. So you have to, you know, and I learned that from working in South Africa and saw how important the cultural aspect was. I learned that working in the Hispanic community on the Lower East Side. You can bring it into different populations, but I think you need to be very sensitive to the culture. We started something in South Africa, for instance. I still work closely with a non-profit in South Africa called the Ubuntu Fund. And I had been teaching at a spa in Mexico called Rancho La Puerta.

And they have this big organic garden. And when I went back to South Africa and I saw what was going on, I said, we can grow gardens here for the kids and get them healthy food. So we started that. And it wasn't just my idea, and I helped get the funding, but the young guy, the young American guy started Ubuntu, and his team were so sensitive of the culture and how to introduce it, and I saw how affected it was. They had complete buy-in from the leaders of the community.

And it's just, you know, for them it was such an easy sell because the way they got it into the community was explaining and showing how this is how it's always been. So I think there are ways of doing it, and I think you need to do it in different ways in different places. And there are always different entry points. Some people come into it from food. Some people come into it from meditation or exercise. That's where my head's going at the moment. What are all these entry points? How do you touch different cultures by

bringing them into the wellness space? We do the same thing. A lot of this is just common sense. It's not, you know, we don't have to even teach them about the microbiome. A lot of ways to get healthy are just, you know, more plants, move your body. Exactly. So it's like how do you get, what are the entry points for people? How do you get them in? And this is, I think, a very important part. If people have a subjective experience of wellness, that's how you hook them.

That's why yoga is so popular. That's why you can get people turned on to exercise, acupuncture. If you can get people to have a subjective experience of wellness soon, that's what's going to really hook them. It's not an intellectual thing. So, you know, this is sort of where part of what I think about now is how do, you know, what are these entry points and how do you get different people, different populations into the wellness space. How does wellness become just a normal part of our culture, which it should be? Yeah, and that will probably be a quest that takes you through for as long as you want to. But it's exciting. Yeah, it's exciting because people are getting it.

And our default choices are so unhealthy. This is a problem yeah you know like for what we have to label food organic because what normal food now is full of pesticides but food was always organic it wasn't labeled organic because you know people used to move their bodies people the things that we used to do you know are now we have to bring back. So our default choices in food, in the way we live our lives, sleep, everything is so abnormal. We have to make the default choices normal and natural.

It's like we have to train them back into our lives so that they become the new default. Now that makes a lot of sense. Well, you and I could jam for, I think, probably a couple more sessions. Maybe we'll have you back at some point. Yeah, I'd love to. I want to come full circle. So the name of this is Good Life Project.

So if I offer that phrase out to you, to live a good life, what comes up? What does it mean to you? I think to have meaning, to be passionate about what you do. When I look at what makes me happy, what drives me, and I see my patients too, when people have meaning, when they have passion, when people give back, it's, you know, this whole concept Ubuntu, I work with Ubuntu Fund in South Africa. Ubuntu, what makes us human is the humanity we show each other. All these intangible aspects of life have powerful healing qualities so um

you know yes i think eating well is important i think moving your body is important watching where your mind goes is important how you sleep but i think these intangibles this um they're giving back the passion the meaning i think people really thrive on these things. And I'm not saying it's hard. It's harder in our culture because we're driven by so many unhealthy ways of living. But I think if you find that, life becomes much easier. So to me, the good life is when there's meaning in your life, when you're giving back,

when there's community. Community is one of those things which is such a powerful force. In every culture, community has always been important. And especially in New York, you tend to lose that a lot. Community isn't as important. So finding your tribe, also important. So to me, that's the good life. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. If the stories and ideas in any way moved you, I would so appreciate if you would take just a few extra seconds for two quick things. One, if it's touched you in some way, if there's some idea or moment in the story or in the conversation that you really feel like you would share with somebody else, that it would make a

difference in somebody else's life. Take a moment and whatever app you're using, just share this episode with somebody who you think it'll make a difference for. Email it if that's the easiest thing, whatever is easiest for you. And then of course, if you're compelled, subscribe so that you can stay a part of this continuing experience. My greatest hope with this podcast is not just to produce moments and share stories and ideas that impact one person listening, but to let it create a conversation, to let it serve as a catalyst for the elevation of all of us together collectively, because that's how we rise. When stories and ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change happens.

And I would love to invite you to participate on that level. Thank you so much, as always, for your intention, for your attention, for your heart. And I wish you only the best. I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot?

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