Good Life Project - Easkey Britton: Surfing as a Metaphor for Life

Episode Date: November 30, 2015

Born and raised in a family of Irish surfers, and named after a surf break, Easkey Britton is a renowned Irish pro surfer, five-time National Surfing Champion and one of the top female big-wave surfers in the world. She's also an explorer, artist and scientist with a Ph.D. in Environment and Society.On any given day, she may be traveling the world, getting towed into waves 10 times bigger than her, screaming down the face of walls of water that move like a steamroller, doing everything in her power to dance with the wave, rather than be crushed by it. Or, she may be researching the environment or bringing people to disparate parts of the world to come together and create social change around surfing.I had a chance to sit down with Easkey and learn about her lifelong love of the ocean and relationship with water. We explored surfing not just as a feat or an activity, but a metaphor for life and growth. We also talked about how she is using surfing as a form of social impact, empowerment and cultural education, co-founding the Waves of Freedom Foundation and filming a documentary about her trip to bring together women from local communities around surfing in one of the poorest, most remote and dangerous regions of Iran. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Charge time and actual results will vary. It's scary every time, and yet I find myself, it's almost like this magnetic pull, like going back. And I put myself in that situation, and yet I'm there in those situations at times thinking, what am I doing here? How did this happen? Imagine for a moment you're on a surfboard, and you're screaming down the face of a 30, 40, 50, 60 foot wave, a wave that is so forceful, so violent that you literally, you're holding on for dear life. You have a helmet

strapped to your head to protect yourself because if you take a hit with this wave, it could end your life. Well, that's a pretty regular experience for today's desk. Well, that's a pretty regular experience for today's guest, Iski Britton. She's one of the top women big wave surfers in the world, and she hails from Ireland, from surfing royalty, really, where she learned to be a part of the water and have the water part of her life in sort of the jagged cliffs and the pretty cold water of that country. We spent a lot of time today talking about what it's like to actually be in the thro water of that country. We spent a lot of time today talking about what it's like to actually be in the throes of that and also how surfing and how big wave surfing in particular

really advises life and how it teaches you so much about how to be in the world with grace, with calm, with ease to deal with massive uncertainty and huge, huge challenge. Really excited to share this conversation today. I'm Jonathan Fields. This is Good Life Project. It's so good to be hanging out with you. So it's so funny. We literally just met through a mutual friend. As soon as I heard you start, I was like, I need to talk to you. And one of the first things that popped into my mind was Irish big wave surfer like huh like I never in my mind

like associate like big wave surfing even surfing and I'm not and granted I'm not all that much in the surf world but with growing up in Ireland also so I curious, take me back a little bit. How does this story begin? Yeah, well, it goes right back to my very naming, Eastie. It's the name of a place on the west coast of Ireland, and it's a famous surf break. So I'm named after a wave, and it's my dad's favorite surf break. He's one of the first pioneering surfers in Ireland, himself and his brothers, back in the 60s. Is that kind of when surfing hit Ireland? Pretty much. Surfing as we know it now, yeah, it reached Ireland around then. And they were the first to sort of start surfing in the northwest in Donegal,

which has now become quite a famous surf spot for big wave surfing and other things. The name Easkie comes from the irish word for fish east there's a lot in the name definitely say i have it in like salt water in my blood yeah but i also grew up with it on my doorstep at a time too and it certainly wasn't a cool thing to do but i it was just a way of life which is kind of bizarre to me also because like to the association when i think about, it's like that's the cool thing to do. It's so funny to hear you say you grew up in a culture where it wasn't the cool thing to do. No, no. It was still considered like surf bums.

It was still very like underground counterculture. Dad being a real nonconformist. And my mom surfed as well as a teenager, which was really unusual. And when you grow and you're raised in that environment as a kid, you just don't question it. It seems natural. That's your home. And my playground was the ocean. And in a way, I think it was also the nature of where I was born,

where I grew up. It's somewhere so isolated. It's really rural, Donegal. I don't know if you know Ireland, but it's really on that northwestern edge, literally where the land meets the sea, it gets hammered by the Atlantic and yeah it's where really I suppose I felt at home like I had this constant playmate

which turned out to be the ocean I just connected it from such an early age people ask you when do you start the memory of your first wave is usually a powerful one. But I think it just, it's been, yeah, such a constant, like, breathing. I feel like I've been in the sea since before I can remember.

So when you're away from the water, what do you do? Oh, it's terrible. I'm doing okay right now. I have a lot of, like, stimulus and inspiration here at WDS. But it's one of the issues with being with this being a surfer both good and bad um that constant pull of the ocean really is the best way to describe it it's um like it is an addiction yeah it's interesting too because I'm not a surfer but I grew up on the water you know the end when I was a kid the end of my block was a beach

and that was that became the place that I would just go to to sort of like you know like find you know like to touch stone to just find my center and so even though I don't have to unlike you it sounds like like you love to be in it I just but for me it's really odd I have to be near water for some reason you know we've looked at beautiful places to move that were landlocked and I can't go there because it's like growing up I think you know like on the water basically it just becomes a part of you I think for so many people yeah it's it seems like a like that's a natural thing like I well I'm biased being such a water lover but it makes sense to me if you think about it and how much of us

physiologically how much of us is water how much of the planet is ocean and even how popular it is like people want to go to the coast and that's where all the development's happening and but it is that sense and then being from an island nation about this need to sort of reconnect with that and it's this this powerful force but I think as a surfer too it's because it's been such a just this thing I've always done in my life and I have never questioned it I just love it that much in the last few years as I travel more and then mixing up in different worlds like this one beginning to think like well what is it about surfing like how has it influenced and impacted my life yeah and it literally is infused

in everything I do and I wonder why I'm so restless and I think it's like mirroring almost the energy of the ocean and that need to be, I think as a surfer it really shapes your perspective because you're literally looking out always at the horizon like sensing when the next wave is coming and that's where I suppose the exploration, adventure, nomadic part comes in. I really want to dive deeper into surfing as a metaphor for life and for all this stuff but I want to just track your sort of journey a little bit so you you're in the water from like the time you're a baby basically at a certain point you become I guess

really interested in big wave surfing tell me tell me what that is in the first place because I think I probably don't have a real sense for what it is and I'm sure a lot of people listening don't yeah it's it's uh an interesting world I I competed in surfing from when I was about eight years old and my like my family upbringing was also interesting like in my life there's so many dynamic forces at play which I think is not surprising given that I'm a surfer and I feel that a lot with the whole thing of balancing. Again, life metaphor, I'll get to that. But the big way of surfing is it's more about, for me, my evolution as a surfer was about the relationship with the wave.

And the reason I mostly, the reason why I competed was either to be able to fine-tune of those skills, but also to really meet other people and discover new places and travel. It was like a ticket to go away with the surf team. And there's, I mean, I guess the decision to compete or not compete in that world is pretty heated, right? Yeah. So tell me about that a little bit. So that's. Especially in the big wave world.

Right. In that. Yeah. So that's another big topic. But just in general, general like what's the conversation there it kind of goes against the grain like where i'm at now it's but it's i think it's always been that way there is this and the reason i talk about in in my family in the household like dad is a total non-conformist real if you want to put a label on it like soul surfer does doesn't see any place for competition in something like surfing it's a it's very much an art form and funny enough

his eldest brother was very much the other way he set up he formalized surfing in Ireland set up the Irish surfing association and was all about the promotion and the competition it depends it's like it's a vehicle. It's just another aspect of it. So for me, it was this tool for a while. But really at the heart of it, I now feel like I've got way more in tune with why I surf and it's about how it makes me feel, in essence.

And that I don't need competitions to discover that, to find it. Right. I mean, through competition, when you do compete or when you were competing, was it more against the other people or is it more against sort of like your last best thing? Well, that part of it is interesting because you really, if you start to make it about the other people, you're going to fail. And in a way, it doesn't matter, I think, win or lose.

Probably my best learnings have been when I've lost. But it's very much about you have to break it down to that level of you where you're at your state of mind and how that impacts how you are on the wave and and it's really just about the next wave and being in the right place for it but if you make it about other people and then it's you're in an environment you just have such a lot of control over it's constantly changing it's not like a regular playing field and so that's a really interesting process to go through i'm sure all right so take me into the move too because i'm sitting across from you right now and you've got like arms that are killed to have so obviously incredibly strong

incredibly fit um but you're also you're not you know like a very tall um you know fit. But you're also, you're not, you know, like a very tall, you know, like you're a very compact woman who's like, obviously just incredible, you know, like attuned to your own body and your own ability to perform. But when, so it's funny, you know, like when I think about sort of like the legendary big wave male surfers, they're very often big guys, also like physically really large guys. And when you look at them on the wave they look like they're just miniature yeah and it's funny i saw a picture of you big wave surfing and it looks like you're wearing a helmet also um so let's kind of make that leap into sort of like you saying big waves yes big waves again not an intentional thing like i hadn't didn't have my heart set on i'm going to be a big wave surfer

it was more about Ireland was changing and surfing was becoming a lot more popular a lot of the other breaks were becoming crowded the more accessible ones and there was a small group we started to explore places that were more inaccessible when you had the emergence of the jet ski so having this powered watercraft that you could use to get to places that you couldn't before. And that's how I really began in Ireland, like just trying to discover new parts of the coast. And what was fine were these really huge waves

that had been breaking there probably, you know, for millennia. But now with the craft and the equipment to be able to access them and also having that speed and energy to be able to ride them and so it was just really exciting that this sense of discovery could happen in my own backyard and i didn't have to go out there in the world to try and find it and so i felt like it kind of kind of found me in a way and it's just magical because one of the main spots is called

aliens at the cliffs of moher which is it's like in the seven natural wonders of the main spots is called Aileans at the Cliffs of Moher, which is in the seven natural wonders of the world, UNESCO site, massively high sea cliffs. So it's a stunning, powerful setting, natural setting. And this wave breaks at the bottom of it. And it rises out of really deep water. And it's just the most perfect shape. It's like something you would draw on your copy books as a kid. And I just really wanted to go see it, you know, just to witness it.

And I got a call from friends. Actually, there was surfers from California, the Malloy brothers, who'd come over to connect with a local crew in Ireland. So there was a team, and there was like water safety craft and a chance to really go out and see some of the best guys in action and that's all I thought I was going to be doing and so I was sitting in the lineup and you're it's amazing experience just to be there that close to a wave that powerful like you can feel the energy all the senses are firing the sound the spray just you realize how small you are and how powerful this energy is. And it wasn't until like the very end of the day, it was almost getting dark, the like the jet skis are running out of fuel. I didn't have any equipment and never did it before

in my life. But a friend came up to me, one of the drivers, and was like, just didn't really give me, didn't even ask. He was like, okay, right, Iski right iski come on let's go and we'd surfed together lots before so he knew me and i just i guess and i figured it's a at that time is the best place to do it you've always did really skilled watermen and yeah i just didn't really think about it and i had you know i had all the wrong equipment this you wear an impact vest like a extra layer for protection because you're going at such speed that if you hit the water, you need to hold yourself together.

And also a bit of flotation because you get held under a lot more. And the board itself is a specialized piece of equipment, so it's a lot heavier. Because you're being pulled along, it's called toe surfing. So you hold on to this rope at the back of a jet ski. It's totally different dynamic because you're in relationship with someone else. You're really trusting your partner, the driver who sets you up to get on the wave. Got it. And so you're very much along for the ride and you have to be in tune, I guess,

with that moment that you want to let go. That's your choice. And so the first time I didn't let go at all. I was just going to say, I was like, there's no way. You're just hanging on. It's like, I feel good. I'm safe. This is terrifying. It's awesome, but it's terrifying.

I'm going to just ride this one now. It's a very different sensation. And you're strapped in as well. There's like foot straps on the board, which is very alien to me. And yeah, but the next, so we went, you circle back around for the next wave that's coming. And how big waves are we talking about here? I mean, the first time I did it, it was about 15 feet. Right. Maybe some 20 footers that day.

So that's like three or four times higher than you almost. A lot bigger than me, yeah. Yeah, right. Definitely. It was a good 20-foot weight face that I was on. Yeah. And it's funny because you're on it with all the speed as the wave's still growing.

So you're going to lose that sense of the actual size until afterwards and maybe you see a photo and you're like, oh, wow, okay. That was coming after me. And so, yeah, that moment of letting go is when you commit. So you went back in? Yes. So I was hooked. It's such an adrenaline rush that you're being carried along by this wave. And God, it's hard to break down. Is there a sense when you're in that place,

like are you feeling, are you scared, are you exhilarated or is the moment just almost suspended? Like it's almost like an otherworldly place and like there isn't beyond emotion, beyond experience, it just is. Yeah, because people ask me to break down the actual, like the act of wave riding. How does that feel on those big waves?

And that's really what it's more like. It's like this extended pause, suspended moment, like the real time ceases to exist. So it's really hard to describe. And it's the before and the after. Like, there's the buildup where you're hyper-focused. And then really at that moment where you're hyper-focused and then really at that moment where you let go it just shifts into something else because you've already committed like there's no going back if you want to and also there's no controlling the outcome

like you have no idea what the wave might turn into and you're just you you're picking your line and and that's it like trusting in that process yeah and usually and then it hits you when you've either literally hits you when you don't make it or it hits you when you you finish the ride and then you realize all that emotion and energy that was there yeah kind of explodes but it's not until afterwards so you're aware of it. Right. Tell me, what does it feel like afterwards? Do you remember the first time afterwards? Yeah. I was so giddy.

Like, just, you know, a kid when they discover something totally wondrous, that they, that unicorns are real. Wait, wait, they're not real? No. It's really, it's that kind of childlike joy is the best way to describe it. Like there's nothing else matters. It's heightened. It is a huge adrenaline rush.

And just this amazing sense of euphoria. I mean, it lasts for quite a while, but not so long. So that's what keeps you probably going back for more. It is like getting your fix. Which I guess my guess is then. I mean, are there sort of two types of people? One person who you hit that end point, and the thing that happens in your brain is,

oh my God, I want to do that as much as I can for the rest of my life. Take me back. And the other person is like, I've checked that off my list. Never again. Because I'm thinking I'd probably be the second person if i ever came close to doing anything like that it's a strange one because i always have this like it's scary every time and yet i find myself it's almost like this magnetic pull like going back and i put myself in that situation and yet i i'm there in those situations at times thinking what am I doing

here like how did this happen um but it's really powerful but that said that that was 2007 when that first experience happened with the toe surfing big wave surfing and it was many years before I really got back into that world mostly because it was quite a new thing it's very tight-knit very cliquey in a way and to be honest i was a woman and still are i still am in that world which is so heavily male-dominated surfing anyways and in the big wave world there was no one else and still is no one else in in ireland no other women doing it. And it's starting to connect with other women around the world. There's just not that many of us. Talk to me about that a little bit more, just about the culture of surfing and women

in that culture. It's an interesting one in Big Wave Surfing. I think it's where actually women are starting to make the biggest leap forward, breaking down that gender barrier that mostly exists in our perception around how the media want to play it out. Because in that world, although it seems really physical, it's so much more psychological to be so emotionally in tune with yourself. It's your mindset that matters most. And I also think what attracts me to it is the sense you're in this environment in big waves and it just strips away all the other kind of bullshit or fears or doubts you might have they pale into insignificance and it really doesn't matter in

that context I think whether you're a man or a woman. It's like, because it's such an intimate relationship with the wave and yourself, that none of those other things really come into play personally. So what is it that's kept, I mean, you said it's still largely male-dominated, what is it, what do you think it is that's kept, it's always weird to ask you, like, will you speak on behalf of all women? I can't. Which is always like a bizarre conversation.

So I'm not even going to go, but just in your experience like what is it sort of like about the culture and the experience that's kept it still to this day like many like a long time after really surfing has become mainstream still yeah so much more men than women well there are perceptions like there's a stereotype of what a big wave surfer should look like and then as as a woman you come along and you know you're you look like me and it doesn't quite fit the mold and I think it's also a trust thing and community is so important even more so in big wave surfing even though it's such a solo pursuit you really are on those big days also relying on each other like you want to know you have each other's back and so it just takes trust like to be and you also have to there's a sense of doesn't matter whether you're man or woman this

applies and you have to like prove yourself be able to be up for the task to literally like rescue someone pull someone out of the water if they need it and everyone knows what each other's capable of and they trust in that and for me I got lucky because my tow partner is my cousin sort of that family bond I'm gonna drag them out into it but the back to the gender thing it was more maybe something that I I like created a glass ceiling for myself um because I felt that I yeah people ask me are you not really scared or what's your greatest fear? And I was never so afraid of the waves. It was a different relationship with the surf.

But it was more about this fear of other people's expectations and that I wouldn't quite measure up to them because I was a woman. Because when you do this, you're breaking new ground and riding what some people consider to be impossible waves. It's such an exciting thing. And it's always like, wow, the first woman to surf Mulloch Moor. Or that was such a big wave for a woman. I mean, if you're a guy, that's just an awesome wave.

But the gender thing always kind of came into it. And I hadn't realized how it subtly gets in there and you realize that I was out there like thinking god I can't afford to screw up because if I do then it'll be because I'm a woman not because that was just a really nasty wave and shit happens and so yeah I'm happy to say I broke through that yeah so it was more you think it was more just internal with you? I mean, did you feel like if you had gotten taken out by a way of not killed, but just, you know, like everybody, everybody has bad ways. Yeah.

You know, like that people would look at it and say, well, that was, you know, like she couldn't, she couldn't take it because she was a woman instead of a man. Like, was that actually a conversation that was happening in your head? I think it wasn't that explicit. And I guess the second was like, do you think that that would have been legitimate like do you think that judgment would have actually been made of you well it didn't happen to me but i saw it play out for another female surfer who's incredible woman she has really broken a lot of grind in the big wave surfing world brazilian called maya gabera and she rode that

wave in portugal that's gotten a lot of media coverage, Nazaré. And it's like the biggest waves in the world that have ever been ridden. And she had a really horrible accident there a year, a couple of years ago. And it was, there was this big media debate and it like sparked up on like, you know, national news stations here in the States and across Europe. But it was very much so about whether she was fit to be out there or not because she was a woman, not that this, you know, it's such a crazy situation to be in. These waves are on the edge of what we should be surfing or not,

as human beings, you know, never mind, you know, for anyone. And that just, that kind of shocked me and realized, you know, that is actually a reality there. And I just thought, well, I don't need to own that because I don't really believe in that, so why am I letting that hold me back? And I felt it blocked my sense of belonging, like why I was really out there.

I'd lost touch with that. I'd disconnected from that. And I thought, yeah, I began to doubt. Maybe I shouldn't be out here. Like, what am I doing here? And until I had this really amazing session, like literally it was the experience of one wave that I felt. You know when you have those moments in life where everything aligns,

it just flows, you're so in tune, and you've something like literally breaks. Yeah, so tell me about that wave. Let go. I remember the date, even. It's another thing in surfing, like literally a wave only lasts moments, and yet it just carries through in your life as this really

powerful thread, I think. And that was the 21st of December, winter solstice, 2013. And it was one of those days that was, there had been loads of swell, like lots of big wave days that had gotten lots of buzz. And when that happens, you get a big crowd and lots of media, and it's really busy in the lineup.

And this day, it was more of a quiet one. It was kind of off the radar. It was really unexpected. It was just a window of a few hours where all the conditions aligned, like the weather, wind the swell it was building and it's the biggest surf i've ever been out in it's like 30 40 feet on the faces and but just me and my cousin and a couple of our friends like a really tight local crew who've trained together and we just took it in turns like so there's a team that would you know go out and

choose the waves they want to ride and then the other group would do the safety like we'd watch out for each other so that was lovely and there was just another friend of ours a photographer and like that was it and my mom on the headland for mom freaking out like just like praying well she takes photos like she says she that's her like you know you know, way of coping, like looking through the lens of a camera. She has this, like, protective barrier. But it was that day where I realized what I really love,

like I come most alive when I'm experiencing, I guess, the beauty of nature, literally. It's, like, been like that since childhood. And I realized it was that simple. Like, I was out there because of my love for it like to be in this environment that was just so awe-inspiring so powerful like that I was constantly like on this edge with myself having to challenge myself and take that leap into the unknown like again and again but it was such a personal thing like intimate I owned it and then the process of

it was one of those times where everything really slowed down for me because I tend to be I rush like really fast one thing to the next constantly moving even sitting here and that was a different day like there was this stillness almost and then that stillness stayed even in the movement like in the active way of writing. It was one of those rare moments where you get to slow it all down and become an observer, like a witness to yourself. And I think it was because I, instead of focusing on, like even that day we went out,

I thought I'm just going to go out and look at it and then see how I feel. And then I got closer and closer but those baby steps but in each moment being really in tune with how I felt like the breath the the wind taking all of that in but not just letting it just processing it without really analyzing it for once and so there was no judgment no judgment on myself no expectations and it just opened up this yeah the space inside me really I kind of gave myself permission like yes I do belong out here like I want to be out here grew amazing at being able to block ourselves

from experiencing our own joy I think I don't know why that is fully but i think it happens too when you're really passionate and driven you kind of forget to just remember why you're doing it yeah yeah if that makes sense no it absolutely does i think we get so swept up often in the things that wrap around the thing that first brought us to a particular pursuit that sometimes we lose track of it. And sometimes it takes that moment where all the trappings are stripped away, either because you intentionally do it or it just happens. There's a magical day that comes together where the circumstances set up right where it's

all that other stuff just isn't there and you go back to that like you know moment that you know lit you up about it in the first place and so it's almost like you come full circle and you're like that you know and and it never leaves you when you find it again. Yes, it doesn't. It's amazing. That was a real gift that day, like one of those turning points. Yeah. And even it's like that, the other aspect of it too, it's like that relationship with the surfer and the wave again. It's like a mirroring process and that you can only do that,

like ride those waves. I mean, sometimes there's maybe an element of luck, but a lot less so when you're in waves of consequence like that. And it really comes down to that, like you have to let go. You can't hold back. There can't be any fear or doubt. And it really is like this, it's sort of a mirror to who you are and how. I mean, it's not about being fearless. It's rather about really embracing your vulnerability which is i guess the bravery part or what it really means to be without fear i guess

there's a sense of surrender yes that's that's the word i think i was looking for, yeah, yeah. You mentioned, you said that it's really so much more psychological than physical. Obviously, you're physically very strong and attuned and skilled at what you do. Psychologically, is there anything that you do to sort of prepare yourself for this? Or is it just doing it a million times that allows you to drop into it? Yeah, it's a bit of both. I think that's been an interesting process, and surfing is an amazing tool for a mindfulness practice like that. It comes back to tapping into that state of presence.

If you're distracted or uncertain, it really plays out on those big days. If there's anything you haven't dealt with, it will come out, which is also interesting. So in that way, it's almost like therapy, but it's a really challenging kind. And before, I used to say I wouldn't be able to sleep the night before. I'd be tossing and turning, and I realized that that was because of the anticipation of what might happen the next day. And I needed a good night's rest. But instead of telling myself, oh, you should or shouldn't do something, it was just this using a lot of the mindfulness practice of being really present with whatever it was that I was feeling, that that's okay to feel that way.

And that really helped. And just going through, really focusing on the practical things like things that you can control like having my kit ready checking the jet ski loading everything up like going through all those steps in a way also helps get you grounded so it's sort of like it's not just the actual checking it's the ritual yes of it that kind of drops you into it's like signifies okay i'm moving towards this thing now and i have to shift my mindset appropriately yeah and it's interesting too because everyone has their own way of dealing with it and and then i'm there i'm with a crew of it's all male and so it's also interesting to see

how how people cope differently with everyone also has their fears and in different ways cope with it. So some people, like some of the guys, they say they won't go to the headland and look at the surf beforehand because it will just freak them out. So we launch at a harbor and you have to drive around before you see the wave. And then other people go, no, I have to see it before I go out. Everyone has a different ritual.

Yeah. One of the things you shared was that when you're tossing and turning, part of it was because you were concerned about what might happen. So we haven't really talked to me about what is it really like if you go down in a wave that size? I mean, I don't know if you want to go there. Oh, yeah. Or whether it's just like, you know, don't talk about it because he jinks or whatever it is. But just I'd love to get a

sense of just the power and what it like when it doesn't go right on a wave that size. It's yeah, it's hard because it's almost a case where you don't you not don't ever wish it upon yourself. But it's weird because you've gone a while where it hasn't happened. You begin to get worse. But it's happened a few times. In a way, it's an interesting thing because you just know it's almost an inevitability. Like no matter how good you are, because it's such an unpredictable environment, anything can happen in an instant.

And then all of a sudden you're in a situation that you don't want to be in but you you are and so it isn't a case of i'll just wait i'll deal with that you know if and when it comes so part of it is preparation preparing for that moment and that really helps psychologically as well so to do that you prepare with breathing exercises. Like a lot of the freediving exercises and breathing techniques are really, really good. I don't think you could ever hold your breath for too long. But the other, because the other issue is that you can do that. You could hold your breath, you know, for three minutes underwater.

But you're just, you're still and you're calm. You're not being tossed around. But when a wave of that size hits you, it's like you just got punched in the gut in a, you know, in a boxing ring and you're winded. So you don't even have a chance really to get a breath before you're down. And then it's like a, like a bomb explosion or this, you know, like a building landing on top of you or an avalanche. And you have to with it like there's there's no way you could fight against it and that's like the worst possible thing you can do and so again it's like this big act of surrender and being really still like you have to almost relax into it even though it's this you're just being thrashed around like a rag doll and I mean there's some things you can do

you try to you know to make yourself small and hold on tight. But for the most part, you're better to go with it until it's ready to release you, and then you find your way to the surface. So, I mean, how long could you be under for? It's strange to tell. If you're under for, like, even 10 seconds, it feels like a minute. 20 seconds, two minutes.

It feels way longer than it actually is because it's such a physical, intense experience, like workout with little air in your lungs. So that's the thing why the psychological part is so important. You have to go to that calm, quiet place in your mind and not really think about what's actually happening. And if you train, then you learn to become really body aware and know what the signs are and what your body's telling you and not to freak out because you're actually capable of surviving far more than we think. And the importance of having a really good crew, training, the safety like people might look at you and think you know you're just crazies no water but there's a lot that goes into it to make that moment possible and then yeah then some things go wrong have you ever been around the situation where things have gone really south i've definitely been out there when you know i've i've gotten hit by a wave but and then afterwards it's such

a strange feeling like you kind of don't feel like you've got very little control of your body because you've just been takes a while to work through your system yeah but i mean the best thing to do is to once you sort of regain your breath to get back out there i mean that was my big question right is like do you just sit out the rest of the day or are you on the next toe out because you want to sort of say like no i'm actually capable it depends i think it's a personal thing again like i wouldn't push anyone to and um and i've also been out there too and you've seen it's interesting what happens i've seen some of the guys get a really heavy beating and be really shaken Guys who are really gung-ho and just kamikaze, and then all of a sudden they're, and they just say,

no, not like today, today is just not my day. And it's happened to where I've seen it happen to someone where they just haven't done it again. That was it? Yeah. Wow. And so it's, yeah, it's a tough call. It's a high price to pay.

Yeah, that's for sure. Yeah. So what keeps you coming back? It's a strange one. I almost have this feeling of guilt if I'm not there on a day that's really firing and that I should be there. I need to show up. I'm getting over that now. Because I've made other choices in my life

that have pulled me in different directions. And I think with the big wave surfing world, that's also an element of it. It's so driven and very single-minded. People who do it, who are really at the top of their game, that's all they do. It's like their 110% commitment, all about chasing the next biggest wave

and the next, well, wherever it may be in the world. And it's really admirable, but that's intense. Yeah, but that's also not you. I mean, you've got, you know, part of the story we haven't told yet is you also have a PhD. In, you know, like I think environment and society, right? Yeah, yeah. You found a foundation. So, and now actually it would be a great time to kind of circle back to what you were starting to touch on earlier, which is, you know, it seems like it's not just the practice, the art, the form of surfing that is a part of your DNA.

It's the metaphor and what you've drawn from that as applied to life and career and all this other stuff so let's dive into that a little bit yeah i think i'm really at the point where it's interesting in surfing because it's considered such a solo pursuit to the point of it being seen as something that's almost selfish and it's all about finding the next perfect wave or it's very individualistic and yet there's always such a strong community built up around it like surfing doesn't just happen when you're in the water I think and it can be very much a way of life and there's certain characteristics and for me it's also about now because it's I feel a gift I've had my whole life like it's definitely my first love constant love any

relationships I have with others I have to tell them this explain that while surfing might have to come first but that said it's like well I've started now to sort of have a chance to take a look at how it's influenced me and then think about how can I share how surfing's inspired me to experience the world the way I have taken me out there but also ultimately I think brought me back home to myself it's an amazing tool for that inner exploration and now even like deeper than that again it's like how do you use something that you're that passionate about to create this depth of understanding and connection with others, especially across these so-called barriers that we love to put up? Yeah. So tell me a little bit more about some of the, because I want to get to a couple of things. I also want to get to your trip to Iran, which I'm so fascinated by.

Yeah. But on the notion of surfing as a metaphor to connect you with other people and to just as a lens to view the way that you experience life, what are some of the big lessons that you think are just massively applicable to every interaction or the way that you just move through your day? Yeah, and this is what I think is at the core of it. It's not about surfing itself at all or wanting everyone to go surfing, but it's more about that, yeah, like this as a metaphor. And I guess how I like to think about it is like the surfer's way

and applying that to both, you know, ourselves personally, but also socially. And I think it's like some of the fundamental things for me is realizing it's this like the power of the process like that act of wave writing and and what that really is is like being really present to whatever unfolds and it's such a transformative space and it brings such joy and it's allowing that to happen without trying to control it or trying to put judgment on it and letting go of the outcome, which is a really scary thing to do. So it's a lot about the risk taking, being really honest with ourselves. You can't commit to a wave to take that drop if you hesitate and if you have doubt. So those are some of the big things

and then you actually really get into it, those moments of why you surf. It's because you have this, so you enter this heightened state of awareness. You have to be really present in yourself and it's that flow that people talk about but it really is that. Always think of it like surfing is more like water dancing and there's this amazing quote I'm not going to get it right by T.S. Eliot that talks about that

by how in stillness that's where the dance is at the still point and I feel like that's often how it is in surfing when you go back to talking about the experience of the actual wave riding as this suspended moment and it's being able to do that like to shift our perception of time in such a busy world is a really powerful thing yeah i mean there's a lot in there it's like we could break that down a lot of different ways the other thing that really jumped out at me from the you know what you mentioned earlier too is the particular type of surfing that you're drawn to there's this really fascinating blend that i think is also applicable to life and doing anything really powerful and meaningful between cultivating a

fierce level of self-reliance but simultaneously a fierce level of trust in the people that you're there with you know so it's like this really interesting duality that you're holding yeah yeah i didn't even like fully think about that so much until like more recently about the like the trust part and that sense of community that yeah at phd i'm like where does it fit into this oh boy where did it yeah i'm like oh yeah that's like because it's funny i'm reading it i'm like yeah i was learning about you and i'm like this is fascinating it's so cool soul surfer and just like and then i'm like where does the ph like how does that come into, because that is an intense commitment to education. Where does that come into sort of the journey for you?

Yeah, I have to remind myself sometimes. You know, it's funny because it almost parallels that transition with, so I've been really, I'm still really nomadic and I traveled a lot from when I finished high school especially like late teens into my early 20s just traveling around the world solo experiencing the college of life as dad calls it but my decision then I guess I'd always wanted to go to university to I because by going out into the world it only just fed my curiosity and wanting to know more and I felt like knowledge was a great bridge but the PhD it was funny because I thought well this is an opportunity I got offered it in Northern Ireland University of Ulster like great it's an opportunity to be at home and I think I'm ready to be a bit more grounded and then there's this big wave surfing

thing that's really taking off and you know it's quite strong and it'd be great to have like a home base to be able to explore that and at the same time do the PhD. And I was still competing. I competed up until the last year of my PhD as well. So my surfing also really took off in a whole new way at the same time as I was getting deeply immersed in this headspace that's a PhD. And I think I probably couldn't have done one without the other. It was a real disciplining time and then I needed the surfing as the release as well like I couldn't

have done the PhD if I wasn't also surfing but it's a it's a tricky balance yeah I would imagine and it's funny like I could see how I can see the relationship where it's like it would be you know that the surfing was a really powerful release for the stress and the intensity of the PhD. But it's interesting, it's like, how is the PhD sort of like necessary, like to do the surfing? I mean, I guess it's really feeding two different, two very different parts of you. Yeah. It's also that coming to terms with that, that there are all these different parts to me that make up the whole. Yeah. It's also that coming to terms with that, that there are all these different parts to me that make up the whole. But it's very hard because especially in that world, as I became like more and more part of it in academia, you get over how many years undergrad, like seven years of being institutionalized almost and having that depth of training and skill in that kind of a craft and then having this lifelong craft of surfing

and all these other things in between and this creativity and artistic background from my parents. But yet you're being very much boxed in, especially in something like an academic setting. And even in surfing, it's like, so when are you going to be done with your studies and let's go surf and and then you're in academia it's like when are you going to you know commit to being in your disciplinary box and yeah so that was so it seems like your answer to both worlds was i'm not yeah but but it's so interesting to me also because you said

earlier that in the world the big way of surfing and you know it's the type of thing where it's like you're 110 percent in you know it's like the people are doing this it's like it consumes absolutely every part of them and like that's their lives 110 and you're kind of saying and and like and my curiosity there was you know is that because to stay alive in that world you have to be that fiercely devoted to it or is that just the expectation in the culture or some blend of it yeah i wonder now because it gets back to the competitive part too for me, what attracted me to the big wave surfing world, when I really get down to it, was also this environment of collaboration

that was so different to how it had been in the competitive world, which was really isolating. And then seeing how the competitive element, because industry and money and commercial side is really behind the competitive scene. And it also offers sponsorship, which offers a livelihood, which they sell it as this is you, you can do what you love, and you get paid to chase big waves. What's not to love about that?

But there's an edge to it, like the dark side, is that then it becomes a different thing. And I wonder how much of it is, like I've seen how frustrated some of the guys get when they don't get the biggest wave that day. They're absolutely gutted when they see someone else get it and they know, damn, that's the cover shot and it's not theirs. Or, yeah, I mean, as surfers, I don't think we're ever satisfied anyways, but to see it amplified because it's, or the pressure to perform and the pressure to perform in those situations is just really Dangerous right I would imagine did you ever do sponsorship or were you did you feel that when you did?

I am I guess I was lucky in a sense. Well, you can see it see it as lucky or not, but I Wait, I was with us like smaller company and never given that much money. It was kind of enough to feed my habit. And I also had a lot of freedom then to manage my own budget for the year to decide how best I wanted to use it to get the results that they would be happy with and that I could fulfill what I really wanted to do, which was to travel and experience new places. And now it's evolved into a place where I guess my whole story

is what matters to people now. I don't have to be different Easties in different worlds. It's all coming together in a way that's really exciting, and I can see it happening in surfing as well. I'm with a company called Finisterre. It's like a cold-water surf brand, but they're really like, they're almost like family, very small grassroots, and very much about the quality of the product being local sustainable thinking about the design like the whole process being i suppose it's about the integrity off it

and not compromising and of course then you lose out on certain things but it matters a lot more yeah exactly i mean so you have to you're always deciding like what stays on the table and what comes and talk to me more though about how you come to this place where you're realizing it's the entirety of like the iski story that's not just you don't there doesn't have to be sort of like a separateness that that both is drawing people's interest and also is allowing you to build your own unique thing that you're defining along the way. Yeah, and what made it possible was realizing what I already had, what I already have, which

was, hey, I've been doing this thing surfing my whole life, and it's given me an amazing set of tools to be able to cope with a lot of life's challenges and how I make decisions and cope with things. And I felt like I was being offered a lot of opportunities, which are really exciting at a time when you think, God, this doesn't happen. I should say yes. And going along for the ride and then realizing that that wasn't of my own creating. and I was being kind of funneled into this box and I thought well I'm most comfortable when I step out of a comfort zone and when I'm moving into the unknown and challenging I guess the edges of who I am

and exploring that but also it's now gone into more about what happens when I do that in places like Iran. So you end up starting your own foundation. Which was also not intentional and very organic. I mean, it literally started out with just being that adventure part of myself, wanting to do, I guess, shift my own perspective of how I thought of the world, and then going to a place that a lot of people thought wasn't a good idea to go for, you know, to go surf, which is this southeastern corner of Iran. It's definitely not a typical surfing destination.

And I was motivated really by the sense of just my own shock, by my own ignorance of how little I knew about the vastness that is Iran, the Persian culture, and then discovering that it even had a coast exposed to any ocean, like the Arabian Sea, Indian Ocean. And, yeah, just it being a total unknown. Yeah, so tell me about that experience. And at the time, this is the first time I went was 2010. And I just didn't really think about the combination of being a woman, surfing and Iran.

And having my head covered seemed to attract a lot of attention too. And it's been an incredible story that I think is still growing and now being told by lots of different people, which is really interesting to see how that's all come about. And it's never something I would have imagined possible when I first went there. I literally went with my surfboard, thought, may or may not find waves. Everyone else who was supposed to go on the trip fell by the wayside for one reason or another except one other woman who was Marion Poiseu and she had a camera with her and was this you know aspiring film maker and I had my surfboard and we decided we should you know carry on regardless

we were here now and it was just that sense of let's make the most of it against these odds. And the shift for me then with that whole experience was really about reconnecting with the values of surfing, why I did it, why it mattered. And it wasn't really about searching for the next wave, but really how it opens this space to connect with people. Like surfing didn't, there was no one surfing there, and there was no surf culture, no scene. So it was like this blank canvas in that sense. Right, so you just drop into Iran. Yeah.

And where there's no surf scene, there's nothing, and you're there to surf. Yes, basically. I mean, the first time you went, was this largely about like a very personal quest for you to do this thing or was it your intention to see if you could somehow connect with culture or bring other women into it or yeah there was so that wasn't my intention the first trip at all i didn't know how it would even be received if we get permission to do it

right were you concerned about sort of about how it would be received? I was probably, I don't know if naive is the right word, but in a way we'd also put in a lot of the organizing part of it was with a mutual friend of ours who'd organized everything. And we did it with a local tour company the first time. So that was our, they were like our, I suppose, the gatekeepers. It wasn't completely solo but they'd also never been to this part of Iran which is like Chabahar is the main main city and the

rest which is incredibly rural very remote other Iranians don't go there like you tell people in Tehran you're going there they're like well why would you go there and it's considered quite a backwater it's different ethnicity baluchi people and they speak different language they're a sunni majority it's different religion discovering all this was really incredible as well but the first trip was really in a way it wasn't until afterwards i got left and marianne made a short film like five minutes of me surfing waves off this desert coast in a place that not many people had really surfed before. And no known women had surfed there as far as we were aware. And that's what sparked the whole reaction.

That was the catalyst to go back. So what was that reaction? And the response really surprised me. I thought, well, it could be pretty mixed, going to somewhere like Iran, a white Western woman, bringing something like surfing. But that wasn't my intention, to bring surfing and convert the masses to try this amazing sport. And it was very personal.

And there was no, there wasn't any, there wasn't any real message. It was just like, this is the experience and this is what it looked like through a surfing lens this place we know so little about and also i think the the other thing that made it really possible to go back and do what's happened since was the fact that i went and kept my head covered so i'm surfing and i'm completely covered and and it's in the desert it's 40 degrees Celsius. And the most challenging thing, I thought, was thinking about, what am I going to wear, and how am I not going to die of the heat?

But that also was, I suppose, it's that thing when you travel and you're in somewhere that isn't your own, it's not your world. It might not be rules that you agree with, but it's that having that, I suppose, that sense of respect or trying to understand what it's like in someone else's shoes, right? So then you went back. Yes. And this is where it gets interesting, because the reason I went back was because, and this

is why also the internet's a beautiful thing right now, when we talk about storytelling and trying to open up space for the diversity of these voices and what it means to be a surfer who do they look like and so i discovered this whole community of sportswomen in tehran doing board sports like snowboarding skateboarding wakeboarding and using their passion for that to i suppose be who they really wanted to be to express themselves in a different way. Was that a big shock, by the way, discovering that? Yeah. For them, it's not.

But it's not a story that you hear about Iran very often. These women, despite the challenges and the obstacles that they face, still being able to do what they love doing. And then getting excited by the opportunity to try something in their in their own backyard and not having that up until this point because a it needed to be another woman teaching other women and girls to do it and also yeah just not having access even to the like the resources and it being such a remote part of the country and so the going back was on almost on on invite from the community there like wanting to hey like when are you coming back and can we try this and so they were the real risk takers I thought because it was one thing maybe for me to go but we went with it was myself and Mona Siraji who's a professional snowboarder and Shala Yasini's a swimmer. And they were the first two to sort of come along.

And then we had a lot of discussion about, you know, it's a big unknown, and we're not sure, we don't know how people will respond. And so, like, for the first few days, Marian came back with us also, like, to capture the story of it, which has become a documentary since, called Into the Sea. It's just been released this year. The goal was to introduce these Iranian women to surfing.

Yeah. Or was it something else? Because the look on your face kind of made me think, that's not quite it. It was more for me the excitement. I suppose in a way I hadn't realized what it was like when I grew up in Ireland before surfing was cool and and tapping back into my experience of what it was like to discover surfing for the first time and then wanting to understand what that was like for these women and girls to experience that in their own country for the first time, like almost revisit that experience, and also better understand what is it that connects us

or drives us to do those things against the different challenges that we all face as women. And it became even more than that because where we had to go to surf, because it's this region that's very culturally, socially different to the rest of Iran. It was also bridging these social and economic divides that I didn't anticipate. And surfing then really became the vehicle or the tool, whatever you want to call it,

that opened up this space that just wouldn't have happened otherwise. For people to connect with each other over a shared experience, like something that's as fun as surfing, you just never would have considered interacting with each other before. So both the gender, like men and women, that being mixed, and then also this cultural thing of the sort of middle-class urban Tehranis coming and going somewhere like that with local tribal communities and sharing waves for the first time.

It was really powerful. And in a way, surfing was a lovely catalyst, and it's such a great medium. Because it was so new, there was no blueprint, so even the powers that be so far haven't been able to box it into any particular category. And what's really exciting is that it was my hope that people would experience it and make up their own minds

how they feel about it. And a lot of us going the second time was asking people, telling them, this is who we are and what we're doing, but what do you think about it? What do you think about women doing it? So it's terrifying because you'll see in the movie, it was almost the very first day we get to Chabahar, meet with the political leader who was in the government at the time. And he's this big bearded guy and has this

huge entourage of all men. And I go up and I can't speak Farsi, I'm Persian, asking him through a translator, you know, hey, what do you think about women surfing with my pink surfboard? And I, which I gave to him, there's this classic photo of him standing there with this pink board going. But it was interesting to understand, you know, where the spaces lie, even with the rules and exploring that. And then also seeing how they're taking it and making it something of their own. It's like this, how they want to be as a community themselves. And so Mona, along with her friends, in collaboration with the local communities in this part of Iran, have set up a community group called We Surf in Iran,

and in essence another foundation to be able to sustainably develop it and keep it accessible to everyone. Oh, that's great. So that's really exciting. It's got a to everyone. Oh, that's great. So that's really exciting. Like, it's got a life of its own, which is great. And it's like it opens this whole new, I don't want to say application of surfing, but it's sort of like, you know, surfing as this modality to connect cultures and sort of, like, share experiences where people might never realize their commonalities.

Yeah. But for that modality and it's a fascinating modality too because like you shared like earlier in a conversation it levels the playing field you know the wave doesn't discriminate yeah so you it's gender neutral it's it's and every possible level it's neutral. So it's a really interesting mechanism to sort of like to bring people into and let the lessons emerge from a place where bias can't exist. Yeah, it's getting back to the heart of it for me.

And that's really now where I'm at, how I see it, is channeling what I love most, surfing, into social change. And then how do you make that, how do you scale that, make it bigger, go from that one experience, which is pretty unique in Iran, but how do you connect that with a bigger picture of what's happening globally? And that's what inspired the Surf Plus Social Good Summit, which I just had a couple of months ago. And it was very much inspired by, you know, that's part of the reason why I really wanted to come to WDS was to get a better understanding of the whole, how I see like this art of gathering, how you can build community today and all these different channels for doing it. But it's fundamentally about connection and wanting

to feel a sense of belonging. Yeah, I think when it comes down to it, almost everything is. Right. When you strip it all away, that's such a fundamental, essential human need, which kind of brings us full circle. So the name of this is Good Life Project. So if I offer that term out to you, to live a good life, what comes up? What does it mean to you? It's a beautiful way of putting it, I think, to live a good life. And for me, I think it's funny. Okay, I'll take a step back for just a moment. And before I came here, the last month has been incredibly tough.

It's been a real disciplining, challenging month where it's really, I heard today in one of the talks, like the universe has got your back, but the universe will also tell you, remind you that it has your back. So for me, it was about this thing of needing to really slow down and take care of myself, especially when you're in service to others, and you're so fueled by your passion. I think those of us who are like that tend to be not so great with the self-care part. And so I think a lot of it is to live a good life, is to be kind to yourself, to be honest about who you really are, who you want to be, and listening, like listening first to yourself

so that then you can better tune into your environment and then that connect with other people. And a lot of it too is also about forgiveness, like be kind to yourself, forgive yourself, love yourself. And from there, then I think you can better connect with who you are and accept all of it. And that's the first part of the journey, that inner part. And the next part to living a good life is how do you bridge that, the inner and the outer world, which I think is what literally happens when, you know,

the experience of surfing is that for me. Yeah, so it's being open to those experiences that allow us to to dissolve those barriers again that we put up and and to better connect with who we are and through that being able to connect with our environment and then we're better able to like care for it and share with others so that that's what it's about. Beautiful. Thank you so much. Thanks. It's so powerful doing this.

Hey, thanks so much for listening to today's episode. If you found something valuable, entertaining, engaging, or just plain fun, I'd be so appreciative if you take a couple extra seconds and share it. Maybe you want to email it to a friend. Maybe you want to share it around social media. Or even be awesome if you'd head over to iTunes and just give us a rating. Every little bit helps get the word out, and it helps more people get in touch with the message.

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