Good Life Project - Elaine Welteroth | More Than Enough

Episode Date: June 22, 2020

Elaine Welteroth is a New York Times bestselling author, an award-winning journalist and a producer and judge on the new Project Runway. She is known for her groundbreaking work at the helm of Teen Vogue, where she was appointed the youngest ever Editor-in-Chief at a Conde Nast publication in 2017, transforming the magazine into a platform for advocacy and social activism. She's now a leading expert and advocate for the next generation of change-makers. Welteroth was recently appointed Cultural Ambassador for Michelle Obama's When We All Vote initiative. Her writing appears in The New York Times, British Vogue, and The Hollywood Reporter. She has written for the hit show Grown-ish and has appeared on-camera for a range of media outlets including ABC News and Netflix. Welteroth released her first book More Than Enough: Claiming Space for Who You Are No Matter What They Say (https://amzn.to/30nh8q7) in June 2019. Her debut literary work became an immediate New York Times bestseller and was the recipient of the 2020 NAACP Image award for Outstanding Literary Work.You can find Elaine Welteroth at:Book : https://www.indiebound.org/book/9780525561613?aff=penguinrandomInstagram : https://www.instagram.com/elainewelterothCheck out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKEDVisit Our Sponsor Page For a Complete List of Vanity URLs & Discount Codes. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So a New York Times bestselling author, award-winning journalist, and a producer and judge on the new Project Runway, Helene Welteroth is kind of known for her groundbreaking work at the helm of Teen Vogue, where she was appointed the youngest ever editor-in-chief at a Condé Nast publication in 2017, really transforming the brand into a platform not just for fashion and beauty, but for activism and advocacy with groundbreaking and often rule-breaking features and articles that were not afraid to take a powerful stand in a world that felt like it was a bit in need of that. Elaine was recently appointed cultural ambassador for Michelle Obama's When We All Vote initiative. Her writing appears in the New York Times, British Vogue, The Hollywood Reporter.

She's written for the hit show Grown-ish and has appeared on camera for a range of media outlets, including ABC News and Netflix. And Elaine's book, More Than Enough, claiming space for who you are no matter what they say, became an instant New York Times bestseller and was the recipient of the 2020 NAACP Image Award for Outstanding Literary Work as an Autobiography Biography. She's becoming a leading expert and true advocate for the next generation of change makers. And interestingly enough, it all began when Elaine stumbled upon a profile in a magazine that would introduce her to a mentor who would change the course of her life, as she now so often does for so many.

Cannot wait to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. so often does for so many. Cannot wait to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, Charge time and actual results will vary. I'm so curious about so many moments along the way for you, especially, I mean, what you've accomplished is pretty stunning. But it seems like there was so much foreshadowing from the earliest of days in your life.

You tell a story about like the three-year-old beauty pageant, which I think speaks so much to what would ensue for like the next 30 years of your life. It is interesting how when you look back, it all makes sense. You know, I found it really interesting to write this book and to pull together all those stories that really do kind of form this full picture of the person I probably was always meant to become. And, and, and it was interesting because I, it, it required me to do some investigative journalist work in my own family to get some of those stories out of my parents and to compare their notes. And, you know, so much of your, our early lives, our early life is handed to us, you know, hand-me-downs. It's through stories from our parents and loved ones. And so

piecing them together, I thought, wow, this is interesting how this does sort of foreshadow the kind of work I was meant to do, the kind of person I was meant to be in the world, how I was meant to move through the world. And I just felt it made me feel so incredibly grateful to have had the parents that I had who gave me the space to figure out so many of those things on my own without them being overbearing. That moment, the story that you're referring to is one of my mom's top three favorite stories. She tells anyone who will listen and it's the story of her putting me into a beauty pageant. My brother was also in one as well and it was called the Tri-City Tot Princess Pageant. And, and when we, I was like three years

old, we were just about to go on stage. You know, all the little three-year-olds were going out onto stage with their parents, holding their mom's hand, you know, with their, some of them had their thumbs in their mouth. They were too shy to talk. And she tells the story that I, she went, she's like, I'll never forget how you pulled, you tugged on my skirt and asked me to come down to your level. And you whispered in my ear, I'm going out on my own. And I, and she goes, I didn't know whether to be just over the moon, proud of my three-year-old or embarrassed and humiliated that I just got fired by my three-year-old. And she's like, but either way, I just knew that that was the moment I knew that I gave birth to a brave young girl. And I didn't know where that spirit came from.

And certainly she's like, it certainly didn't come from me, but it's always who you've been. And it's always what she and my dad have encouraged. So yeah, but I think while that story, you know, that's very personal and unique to my life, I think we all have those kinds of stories, right? Where you look back and you can see so much of who you really were meant to be already fully formed in the little humans that we used to be. And I always tell people when they say to me that they're struggling with finding their passion and figuring out what their purpose is, I always redirect them to examine their childhood, you know, interrogate those little moments of how they spent their time before, you know, we got paid to do work, you know, with our time, before we were told how to spend our time, before, you know, we were introduced to the threat of failure, and before we had the responsibility of, you know, taking care of other people and even ourselves, like how did we spend that time? Because I really believe there's clues buried in those in the way that in the ways that we played as children that can become the breadcrumbs that lead you directly to aspects of your passion and even your purpose that can be incorporated into your work every single day.

Yeah, I so agree with that. I think it's really interesting also to look back. There's this window of time, and I guess psychologists sort of vary on when it is, where we become, where our level of self-awareness translates to self-consciousness. And I think it's fascinating to look back if you can kind of, and a lot of people don't have these memories, but if you can look back sort of before that switch gets flipped, where we do what we do, not, not really with an awareness of whether we'll be judged for it or not. Right. And then like, what were our choices during that season? Because I think that's so great. I think that's so telling. Right. But so many of us just walk away from that because. Because I think that's so great. I think that's so telling.

Right. But so many of us just walk away from that because we don't think it's the appropriate way to behave. Right. Right. Because we, yeah, we've been kind of beaten down a little by the world and we've been conditioned to think of ourselves a certain way. And, you know, we've been asked to conform to fit in certain boxes. And that's sort of, as I worked on my book, I was really thinking about the journey that so many women go through from the point that we are born with this limitless sense of possibility and this unbridled confidence to about age nine,

which I discovered in my research and working on my book, that is the age that statistically speaking, girls' confidence peaks. And so I was thinking about, gosh, you know, I was applying that to my own life, but then thinking about every woman I know and how applicable that really felt and how applicable that, that really felt and, and how applicable that was. And, you know, so I, I started to identify this, like this arc, this universal arc that many women are on where we, we are born into the world with an unbridled sense of confidence. And, and then it's the world that chips away at that. It's the stereotypes. It's the labels. It's the kinds of assumptions that are made.

It's the things that you're told you can't do. And then we internalize that. And so over time, there's this shrinking that occurs. There's this limited thinking and these limited belief systems that we adopt. And I think if you're lucky at some point on your journey, you recognize that it's time to fight back and to reclaim those elements and those aspects of yourself that you've left behind along the way. And I think the book trails that journey from myself. And in doing so, my hope was that women and anyone who's ever felt othered or, you know, who's ever felt inhibited in any way could go on that journey as well and reflect on the journey that they're on. Because on some level, man, woman, old, young, we all are kind of can find ourselves somewhere along that journey. I want to jump into a number of the moments along the way with you, but there's a lingering question in my mind about that beauty

pageant moment. And I'm curious whether you have, curious what, whether you've ever had a conversation with your mom about her intention in entering you and your brother, I guess, in those pageants, because I know there are very different motivations for different people in different families and different aspirations for what that will or will not create opportunity wise or, or confidence wise, or I'm curious whether you've actually asked her what was behind that decision. I know. I think I, I think we probably asked to do it. We probably thought it would be fun. My mom is so not a pageant mom, like, and we're so not a pageant family and I'm so not a pageant girl.

So it wasn't like, I actually hesitated to even write that story. Cause I was like, is this going to make it sound like weird? Those kinds of people I were, but, but I think it was probably one of those like local ads that I saw and was like, you know, this would be fun to do. And it was the first and last one we ever did. But it was it produced some really fun and insightful, lasting memories for all of us. Yeah. And the fact that it's one of your mom's top three stories that she still says that like there was something really powerful that that came out of that moment that followed you through life. I know you you also had, I guess, a Jones to create and to build and to collaborate from a young age. Also, you describe an experience putting together a beauty

salon in your friend's backyard. So this was clearly it just kept showing up in bigger and bigger ways. Yep, absolutely. I will never forget trolling around the neighborhood, knocking on doors, asking the other girls in the cul-de-sac to lend us some cardboard boxes so that we could build our little dividers between our nail division, you know, nail salon and then the hair salon. And we built a front desk where we, you know, we stored even like little fake cigarettes that we would take on our lunch break and smoke them around the, you know, the back side of the house. I mean, it was a full operation. It was a full on entrepreneurial effort, except the only thing I was like, we were very, very enterprising, except we didn't actually make any money. But we did establish ourselves in the community. And it was sort of funny that we, it was sort of our social introduction to the girls in the neighborhood that we never really got to play with before. It was, we were, we felt like a little bit like outsiders. You know, she was Mexican American, my friend.

And, you know, and I was one of very few, you know, mixed race black girls, actually the only, I can't think of another one. And so everyone else in the cul-de-sac was like blonde or, you know, they, they just seemed different than us. And so we never really ventured out to hang out with any of them, but suddenly this gave us purpose, you know, this gave us purpose. We went out and we got to know them as, as you know, folks who were contributing something of value. And it was an invitation into our world. And it

really was something special when I look back on it. But, you know, of course, at the time, you're just you're just two kids and you're just playing around and you're just making the most of a Saturday, you know. But I also remember Cynthia and I making magazines. And I remember, I vividly remember drawing women in clothing and like dress, beautiful dresses and, you know, really intricate makeup and hair and thinking, okay, how can I turn this into a magazine and deciding, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to glue stick this to a piece of thin cardboard, and then I'm going to wrap that in saran wrap because I have to give it the glossy feel. You got to elevate this a little.

And it's just so funny when you think about a child's perception of luxury or what feels feminine or what feels desirable or what feels like it's of value to other people and how kids translate their creativity. So when I think about all of that stuff, it's like, of course, I should have been a magazine editor. Of course. Especially, I started my career as a beauty editor. And a lot of that a lot of that job is like you are a beauty expert. You're the one to you're meant to tell folks they should get the bangs or they should, you know, get the get the haircut. Don't get the haircut. Pluck the eyebrows this way or that way. You know, and I was very opinionated even back then about what I about about my sort of visual taste and aesthetic. But I think the interesting disconnect that I discovered as I was writing the

book was that even with all of those very clear indicators that this would be a fitting career track for someone like me, I wasn't exposed to anyone in that field or certainly anyone who looked like me in that field. And I grew up in a small town that was so far away from the big city dreams that I was, you know, showcasing at a young age and just didn't have a roadmap, didn't have a role model to follow. And so kind of went on with my life and buried those childhood dreams. And at some point, you know, when I was in college approaching graduation, I was interviewing for life insurance jobs. You know, I was going to be I was going to work in life insurance. And because I think at some point you're just told to find a good job that will pay you a good salary. And, you know, you sort of squeeze yourself into the American dream that you've adopted.

But I'm just so grateful that Destiny had other plans for me, ultimately. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. Life insurance was not to knock that as a path or a career for anyone who's doing that. But it's sort of like one of the classic, well, this is the mainstream, relatively secure, people will always need it type of path. And then I guess it was towards the end of your time in college in Sacramento, or tell me if this timing is right or not, where you discover one person who would just change everything, Harriet Cole. Yeah, I will never forget that day. Yeah. So I went through a really anxiety-inducing chapter at the end of college, which I think most of us do and very few of us talk about. And I had wished at that time more people talked about it. And that's why this was a really important story to include in my book and important part of the journey that I that I talk about. So I, believe it or not, only me, I graduated early on accident. And that was not part of the plan. I had just come back from my first big internship that I landed in New York City through this really amazing internship program called it's called MAPE for short, but it's the Multicultural Advertising Intern Program.

And you apply. If you get accepted, they place you in an advertising internship anywhere in the world and they pay for you. They pay for room and board and you get a little stipend. So it's really a dream come true for someone like me to have gotten that kind of opportunity. I got placed at Ogilvy and Mather in New York City. It was my first time in the big city, on the subways. And a legendary firm. And a legendary firm. And so it was just like the, you know, the sky had opened up. I was just super excited to get a taste of what working in the real world could be like. And then, you know, of course I got there and felt like a complete fish out of water. It just,

I just didn't feel like I was meant to be there. I, I, I just couldn't see anyone in that environment that I related to. It felt really cold. It felt, uh, I, I just felt like an outsider. And, you know, I think a lot of that is normal when you're coming out of college for the first time and you're in a new working environment, but something about it felt more visceral. My, the rejection I was feeling, you know, it was just more visceral. And then culturally I was, you know, it was the first time I was exposed to Ivy league educated students. It, it was the first time I was exposed to, you know, what I called jokingly East coast white people. I was, you know, I am half white and I was raised by very liberal West Coast white people. And there was a stark difference. I've never seen

so many Tory Birch Flats in my life. And just, you know, I didn't, I really, while I appreciated the experience of being in New York and having this opportunity to have this incredible internship, it wasn't for me. I felt really out of my body, out of my out what I do want to do. And at least I know what I don't want to do. I have something crossed off the list. And I think that's really important for people to remember. It's all part of the journey. And sometimes it's important. If you don't know what you do want to do, it's important to at least start to figure out what you don't want to do. And so I felt buoyed by that. And I was ready to, you know, start from scratch and figure out what my passion was and where to begin here with my job search. And I thought, okay, I have a whole year left. Then I get to, I go to my career counselor and I learned that I actually don't have a year. I have three months. And I'm going to do with my life immediately, like right now. And there was just no one that could help me get out of this dark hole that I had fallen into, but myself. So I got really, I kind of became a little bit reclusive.

I pulled away from my friend groups. I got really, you know, still and quiet. I would pray. I got into a ritual of just praying all the time for direction, for guidance, you know, and I did a lot of soul searching and I, you know, I, I, but it was filled with panic. It was filled with panic. And because a lot of that panic was because I thought I was the only one in this feeling. I thought I was the only one experiencing all of this little, little did I know this is welcome to senior year of college, you know, welcome to the final semester. No one talks about the panic, but a lot of us feel it. So, or have been there and have gotten, waded our way through it to the other side. So I will, so to answer

your question about the, how did I come across this woman who changed my life indefinitely? I was panic Googling, what do I do with my life? In my parents' study, I think it was home for the holidays. And I had gone the whole day just going down these Google rabbit holes, you know. And by the end of the night, I sat back. I looked down on the floor. I was exhausted. And I saw an Ebony magazine of my mother's. And it had Alicia Keys on the cover with her gorgeous red dress.

I will never forget that cover. It was stunning. I had never seen Alicia Keys depicted in this way. You know, at the time she was still in braids. So her hair was free and free flowing. It really like just it was beautiful. So I picked it up and went straight to the cover story. And as I always did, even in the grocery store, when I would go down the magazine, I was always about to the cover story. And as I always did, even in the grocery store,

when I would go on down the magazine, I was always about reading the cover story. After I read the cover story, I read the byline and the byline jumped out at me, Harriet Cole. And something almost audibly directed me to look her up. And when I tell you, I mean, I grew up in the church. I grew up hearing testimonies from people talk about, you know, hearing from God and God said this. And I would just think, but what does God sound like? Like, like what, what exactly does he sound like? Have I, I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk to me, you know, from, from the sky before. And so I had this while I, while I grew up with this faith instilled in me, I also had a little bit of reservation, a little bit of doubt about whether any of this was real. And it wasn't until that moment when I, I so clearly felt that I was being directed to

this person that there was no doubt in my mind, it was the divine. And there's no, there's, and now I understand why it's, I mean, now I sound like one of those churchy people that always confounded me when I was growing up. But once you experience it, Harriet Cole. Her bio came up and it just read like my career dream come true that I didn't even know I could have. I didn't know it was even possible to create your own kind of multi-platform, multimedia career, especially as a Black woman. So Harriet had started out her career in magazines. She was a magazine editor for a number of years, worked her way up at Essence Magazine, which was a dream magazine of mine at that time. It was the one I grew up with. And then she went on to become a television. She was regularly on television shows as an expert. She had what at that point we would now call it a podcast, but a syndicated radio show. She was a multiple time bestselling author. She just the list went on and on. much in her career. And it all was held together by this kind of Harriet Cole had figured out how to carve out an intersection in media that only she could occupy. And it was a place that allowed her to be her authentic self across a number of mediums for the upliftment of women of color. And, and, and the intersection was really, it was sort of, she sat at the intersection

of spirituality, style, and black culture. And I just thought, you can do that? You can do that? How do you do that? Only Oprah gets to do that. You know, like Oprah was like, you know, Oprah's everyone's kind of like North star, but it's so, she feels so out of reach and untouchable that just, there's only one Oprah. Right. But this was a more accessible,

you know, role model that I could maybe even get on the phone if I tried hard enough. So I, I mean, doggedly pursued her. I wrote her snail mail. I wrote her email. I found her assistant's phone number. I called consistently, essentially begging for an informational interview over the phone. And I was just rejected left and right, ignored. And something just told me, keep going, keep trying, keep persisting. So I remember one day I called and I said, I was told she was unavailable. I said, well, do you know when she'll be available? Because I'm happy to just bring her a cup of coffee. And the assistant paused and she goes, didn't you say you live in California? And I said, yes, I do. I do live in California. And she said, so how are you going to bring her coffee? I said, I'm, I'm just going to jump on a plane and, and,

and it's not a big deal. I will, I will just bring her coffee. Don't, don't, I mean, you know, she was just like, excuse me, do not get on a plane and come to our office. And it was shortly after that phone call that I got a call back that Harriet would give me 15 minutes of her time over the phone. And I think it was their sort of, you know, their compromise to get me to stop calling and to keep me from flying over there to, to, you know, show up in their lobby. And I will tell you that 15 minutes that Harriet carved out of her day for me,

which turned into 45 once we were on the phone, of course, completely changed my life completely and utterly changed my life. She made my vision of my future self clear. She affirmed dreams that I didn't even know I was allowed to have. And when we hung up, I said, but right before we hung up, I said, Harriet, if there's ever an opportunity to work with you, please keep me in mind. And if I never speak to you again, just know that you have already changed my life. And it sounds like such a good line. I'm sure it flattered her, but it was the truth. I hung up. I thought I will never hear from her again. And that is totally okay

because I am off to the races. Nothing is going to stop me. I made plan A through Z on how I was going to become the next Harriet Cole and how I was going to move to New York, work for a magazine and start, start my, this trajectory. Long story short is that five months later, four or five months later, out of the blue, once I had already landed my dream internship, which is my plan A to work as an intern, summer intern at Essence. By the way, that was the third time I had applied. I'd been denied before that. So this was a really big win for me. And I was just over the moon that I was going to work at my dream magazine for the summer. But when she,

but Perriott called me back out of the blue one day and she said, I remembered you. I'm looking for an, for an assistant. And I happened to have a shoot coming up in Malibu. I remembered you lived in California. Would you consider being my production assistant for the day? And I'll pay you 250. And I just thought, I, I cannot believe this is happening. I didn't, I thought she was, I thought it was a butt dial. I really did. I was like this, she, this, she must be calling someone else. She must not be thinking of me. How could she remember me? But you know, and then I jokingly offered her 350. I said, I'll, I'll pay you 350 to let me come work for you for a day. And the rest is history. I packed my little bags and my mom at the last minute insisted to come with me and she ended up driving me down to L.A., which which little did Harriet know was actually a seven hour drive away from where I actually lived, but not important at the time. And I and I showed up on set and what she did not what Harriet did not tell me about this casual photo shoot that she had in Malibu and needed assistance on was that it was not just

any ordinary photo shoot. It was a cover shoot with Serena Williams. So I rolled up and I just thought, I cannot believe this is my life. I thought I, for those who know the reference, I was like, this is my Lauren Conrad dream come true, which is, I mean, you got to be a millennial to probably know that reference. It was incredible. And the day just really unfolded in a divine way. There were a number of like little omens that kind of face I saw on set was Serena's hairstylist, who was actually serendipitously my hairstylist from my prom, from all my proms that I went to. And she was actually trained in my Aunt Janet's hair salon. My Aunt Janet's hair salon is the place I basically grew up every Saturday. And that is what inspired me to start my own hair salon in my friend's backyard and start, you know, this magazine. So it all sort of felt very full circle. And even, you know, by the end of that shoot, there was this moment where I just kind of took a leap of faith and

threw out a suggestion to Harriet about what I thought Serena should be wearing, which was so audacious, so bold, can't believe I did it was very risky, wouldn't recommend it. But she took the recommendation and switched Serena into the blue swimsuit, which ended up on that cover. And so it was a dream day. It was like a Cinderella career dream come true. By the end of the day, she offered me the job to come work with her in New York. And I had a big decision to make. I had to decide if I was going to, you know, you know, call my dream internship back and tell them I wasn't coming and to go after this opportunity with a woman I, you know, adored. I mean, a woman I revered, but at a place I didn't necessarily ever see

myself working, which was Ebony Magazine. And I decided to choose the less sexy path. As I say, you know, it definitely would have been sexier to go to Essence at the time. It was a much more prestigious magazine to work for. But I believed that I would learn more day to day working underneath someone like Harriet, who would take me under her wing house growing up. It was my mom's magazine. It was more of like your uncle and aunt, maybe grandma, grandpa magazine. And, and I went there with Harriet and, and the rest is history. I can tell you with full certainty that I wouldn't be where I am. I would never have been appointed editor-in-chief of Teen Vogue at 29 or, you know, at any age, had I not been introduced to Harriet in that moment, had I not followed that instinct, that voice that told me to chase her down, had I not persisted, had she not taken me in and really trained me into the editor that I became and gave me, she

really instilled in me a sense of confidence that I could do anything in this industry. And I had her to look up to every step of the way. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Yeah, man, I love so many things about that. It's incredible when you find that one person who just drops into your experience and somehow

not only takes an interest in you, but also not through trying to tell you, but just through the example that they are in the world, through the way that they built their lives, their livings, whatever it may be, their relationships, they demonstrate the possibility of some, not only the possibility, but a potential path for something. And the lights just go off. I mean, it's, it's, um, and you're somebody who clearly has such a fierce will that once you see that you you're like, this is meant to be, this is ordained. So my job now is to just keep acting until it happens. And sort of the confluence of those two things. It's curious too, I often am curious in moments like this where, you know, I'll wonder if Harriet Cole didn't drop into your life, if you didn't discover that one feature article in Ebony that one time, would you still have had a similar career trajectory? And oftentimes the answer is like, absolutely not. But at the same time, it seems like your ship was already pointing in that direction, but

you wouldn't have had the benefit of this one woman's path and example and direct mentorship. Because what I know from living in New York City for a long, long time and having a lot of friends in the media and the magazine industry is that it is not the easiest place to exist. And it is not the easiest place to find somebody who genuinely takes an interest in sort of like old fashioned mentorship. It's so much more defined by competition rather than guidance and celebration and collaboration. So it's like that thing I think is really powerful how you chose to say no to sort of like the bigger splashier thing and yes to the person which I think speaks so much just to who you are also and the way you make choices thank you for saying that and you know I still operate by that principle people over projects. And it's just proven to be the more prudent, the more, um, fulfilling

path every time. It's really, I always say it's a hundred, it's, it's 90% who 10% where, um, and yeah, I mean, to, to, to echo what were, to speak to what you were just, you know, exploring and aloud is this idea of, you know, would I ever, ever ended up on this path had Harriet not dropped into my life? And I honestly don't think I would have. I don't think I could have. I think what would have happened is, you know, had I followed my own will and my own, you know, the tools that were available to me at the time, I would my the best the biggest dream I could dream

for myself was working as an intern at Essence. Now, through my own sheer will, I that door opened for me and through luck that door opened for me. But had I walked through it, I would have found myself at the end of that summer, which by the way, was the height of the recession. It was the summer of 2008. I would have found myself having to pack my bags at the end of summer and head right back home to start over again, because that was the first time in Time, Inc.'s history of their internship program where they didn't hire a single intern. So any other year before that, you know, the guarantee would have been, you know, you could get a job. Someone is getting a job. In this case, no one got a job. So I looked at that as another omen and as another kind of really important lesson to follow your instincts, to never chase the sexy, but to follow your instincts path and to stay as stick as closely to her as I possibly

could, even if it was the less sexy option. And it certainly was. I mean, people gave me a hard time. Let me tell you, when I had to come, you know, call my friends back and my family and tell them, you know how I said I was going to work at Essence? Well, yeah, now I'm going to work at Ebony. And everyone just kind of scrunched their face. They went, Oh, but why you had essence, the year and choose Ebony. And I was just, I had to just, I had to block out all of their, their doubts and their, their fear that they were projecting onto me. And I just had to say, this is a God thing. This really is a God thing. And, and, and it was like, trust me or not, this is the path I've chosen. And it wasn't even like I chose it. It really felt, it really felt divinely orchestrated. Um, and I think only, you know,

those, those, those moments when, when the way the, you know, the, the way that the path unfolds is just too divinely orchestrated that you didn't even have anything to do with it. You just know you have, those are the moments that you need to surrender and walk in faith and not in sight. And, and, you know, I'm so, so grateful I did, but then I will tell you on the other side of that, you know, here I was now at Ebony, it was very clearly unsexy. I got there and I was just like, this is not my, the sex in the city, you know, dream office that I had in mind of, you know, the, the, the beauty closet was just like overrun with just like Manila envelopes. And I had to clean it all the whole thing up. And it was just, it was not sexy. Okay. That let's be very clear. All that glitters is

not gold, all that, all the, all the, all the colloquialisms, all of the cliches, but I got my footing and I was able to get into the, get in at the ground floor of an organization that was in the middle of a pivot that was trying to redefine itself. And I got to be a part of that in a much more, in a bigger way because it was a smaller team. And if I had gone over to Time, Inc. at the time that the company that owned Essence, I would have been a peon among millions of peons. You know, there would have been a ton of other interns in line competing for the same

opportunity, whereas here it was just, it was just me. And so all I had to do was just say yes and jump in and figure, figure it out. And, and on the other side of that, as I grew in the organization about, I want to say about a year and a half into it, Harriet was let go. And so then I had to kind of grapple with that. And, and really I saw so early on in my career that no matter how much value you add, you still are disposable to an organization. And so while you build your career, you must be, keep one eye on making sure that you're building a reputation, building a plan B, building your next step, building something that, God forbid, you are dismissed, that you can walk away into something that you've been building all

along. And I would not have had that experience. I wouldn't have had that foresight had I not watched this happen to Harriet, who was my mentor? And then I had to pivot and figure out, how do I figure out how to add value here beyond the person, you know, the person I was serving, the person that I was here because of. And so ultimately, by the time I left Ebony for Glamour at Condé Nast, I mean, I had gone through three different editors-in-chiefs. So it took a lot of pivoting and resilience and proving myself again and again to hold onto that job, particularly in the middle of a recession. So I think now, when I think about all that we went through collectively in the workforce in the recession. I think there are a lot of lessons to be gleaned that apply to this pandemic that we're living in now and trying to find our way

to working. We're working through it. And I think, you know, while millennials get a bad rap for being a lot of things, one thing we've had to be is adaptable. I'm grateful now looking back that I started my career and built my career at the height of the recession, because now that we're in this moment where, you know, structures are falling apart and, you know, everything that we were counting on is no longer, you know, everything's falling away. I think this is it's not completely unfamiliar to me. And I think a lot of people who are around, you know, a lot of people who survived the recession can draw upon some of those same lessons that that that came out of that really, really difficult time right now. And also rely on that sense of resilience and hope that it will get better. We don't know how long we're going to

be in this, but it will eventually get better. And we know that because we've been under stress and in a place of uncertainty, deep, deep uncertainty before. And we all found a way out of it. Yeah. I mean, like you said, when you entered the industry 2008, 2009, it was pretty much decimated. The ad-supported media, especially magazines, a lot of them were gone. And the ones that even did survive, the classic September issue of all the fashion and fitness magazines, which was like the biggest issue of the year. It was like a pamphlet almost because there were no advertisers left. So the experience of surviving that, yeah, it builds muscles and the ability to be agile

and adapt. Interestingly also, I mean, because Harriet didn't come to Ebony, she wasn't a long time there when you got there there she had actually left essence and had her own you know really successful consulting business and she had sort of dropped into ebony to you know for a visual rebrand so when she left she didn't go to another magazine where you could have sort of followed with her she went back to doing her thing which was must have been a really interesting moment for you because Cause you're like, okay, I get what she's doing cause she's doing her thing, but I want to still stay in this business. So how do I now reorient myself so that I can take the next step into it rather than follow my mentor because

I can't really do that anymore. As you mentioned, you end up eventually at Glamour, which is a part of an entirely different, I guess the word is probably empire in the world of magazines there for a couple of years. And then shortly after you end up at Teen Vogue first as beauty director, in fact, the first black beauty director. Am I right at Condé Nast ever? Yep. So you're there in, that's what, 2012 when that all happens? So the industry is emerging. It's coming back. It's building strong. You're finding, okay, I do have a place in the industry. I'm building into it. I'm rising up and performing and doing some amazing things. And then 2016 happens and you end up becoming the editor of the magazine of Teen Vogue.

And what an interesting year to basically take charge of this magazine that is part of this giant empire. The legendary Anna Wintour becomes the person who's sort of like overseeing everything and then you're running this property. And it's this season where you have choices to make about what you want this to be and become. And you make some really interesting early choices, not the least of which is really soon in your tenure, they're putting Amanda Listenberg on the cover shortly after she comes

out with this video that is all about cultural appropriation that kind of goes viral. And she's a powerhouse, a rising powerhouse in the entertainment business already, but she puts a flag in the ground around something bigger, around a sense of not politics, but really standing for something beyond her craft. And so it's so interesting to me that you decided, okay, so even from the very beginning, we're going to start to tell a different story and bring different people into the conversation. Yeah. And I, and I, you know, that education and that mission really came from the time I spent at Ebony. I felt like I, I came into this industry as an outsider working for a black magazine, writing for a black audience, specifically celebrating and centering Black beauty. And then I realized at some point that my gifts and talents and now experience

could be even better utilized at a place like Conde Nast where there were so few of me. There were, if any, you know, journalists of color who had been trained to speak to audiences that had been largely, you know, underrepresented by mainstream media. And so I felt like I came into Conde Nast with a certain consciousness and a certain mission that I would not have had, had I not started my career at Ebony and, and really been rooted in, in that kind of purpose, purposeful work in the magazine space. But it took time to be able to find my voice and use it in a place where I felt kind of foreign,

in a place that felt foreign to me and in a place where there were rules and there was a way of doing things. There was a certain protocol that I really had to first, you know, I had to learn. And I had to build trust over time before implementing kind of what my vision was. And so it took a lot of time, you know, it took, it really wasn't, I had been at Teen Vogue, I think about, I want to say like four years before that Amandla story could have happened. I, but I felt really, I felt it was the time. And I felt at that point as well, we had the, the world was shifting, times were changing and, you know, magazines, as you mentioned, were going through a really,

really difficult time. There was an, we were, I think as a teen magazine, we were in particular going through a identity crisis. Who are we now? What do we mean now? How can we mean more to an audience that has so many other options in terms of, you know, media consumption? There was the rise of social media and, you know, platforms like Tumblr gave them other options to use their voice and, and to interact with each other. You know, it just, every, everything about the work that we were doing had changed so drastically and so quickly. And so it felt like this, it was the, it was the right time for risk-taking. It was the, the right time to innovate and to do so boldly. And so it felt like this is the moment I've been waiting for.

And I know a lot of other creators felt that way as well as storytellers. And I just remember thinking, I remember going into this meeting with my team and just being like, are you guys bored with the way we've been doing things? And I was just like, raise your hand if you're bored. And I put my hand up and slowly but surely a number of other hands went up. And so I just put it out there. Like, what if we just throw out all the formulas that we've been operating from? And what if we just do what we, what we really think is important? What if we make, what if we write and tell stories that we really think the world needs that we want to read only? What if we just try that with this one issue,

you know, and if it, if it tanks, guess what? I mean, it's not like sales are going up right now. Anyway, it's like, it's like, it's like, this is the time if ever to, to throw out the, throw out the rules and give it a try. And everyone was on board. Everyone felt like they had things to say that they hadn't been able to say before either. And it really just became kind of this, this pivotal moment for us as a brand. And it was the first time that we also, I mean, I was responsible. It was the editor on that cover story. And I just thought, I don't, I don't think that Amandla needs me to editorialize her voice. I think what we should do is pair her with another black woman that she looks up to and let

them and get out and get out of the way. Let's just hand them the mic. Let's hand the mic over. And so we set her up with Solange and that conversation that Amandla, young Amandla had with, with Solange, it was when I read the story that came back in from Amandla and Solange, I remember sitting at my desk and weeping. I remember thinking if this is, like, if this is making me feel this way, I know it's going to impact someone else similarly. And this is the kind of work I've been waiting to do.

This is the kind of work I wish existed when I was growing up at a mainstream magazine. I wish I didn't have to go to the, you know, black magazine to see myself. I should be able to see myself in mainstream magazines. And so should I want to I wanted to make sure that our magazine spoke to every different kind of young person who was in this very vulnerable, fragile stage in their life where their identity, their identity is coming into formation. profound and beautiful. And, and, and then we put it out into the world, not knowing if anyone was going to read it or care because at the time, Amanda certainly wasn't a household name and hadn't been in a film since hunger games. And it had been a number of years. So for all intents and purposes, she was kind of an internet personality with a big voice. And it went, I mean, the internet like went nuts when, when the story

hit and we just were flooded with feedback from young women of color in particular, thanking us and praising us for having recognized them and centered their experience and given them, given them this opportunity to feel represented in a really authentic way. And it just sort of affirmed why I was there and what I could bring that was necessary and valuable in a moment like that. But but similarly, I think it affirmed for everyone on the team that they have something that a value that the world needs and that we should be leaning into that, whatever that thing is. And I think we all kind of felt a deeper sense of purpose in the work that we did. And we, there weren't throwaway stories. There weren't just beautiful pictures.

It was always about like, what's, what's the story here? Whose voice are we amplifying? Is this something that the world needs more of? Because this is the time to multiply the messages that matter. And then certainly, what none of us would have ever predicted was that the 2016 election, which happened later that year, which would completely change our world, our country, the way that we consume media. And so it all felt like it was building. We were kind of putting down the foundation for how we would really pivot once that happened about eight you later. in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required.

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You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. If you were building a foundation in the year before that, when that happens, and then Lauren Duca writes an article, it feels like that just tipped it over the edge. That was sort of like the line in the sand where it is clear that this magazine is stepping into the place of being a platform for a younger generation,

not just in terms of their general lifestyle interests, but in terms of their deeper beliefs around representation and politics and activism and advocacy. And it was, from the outside looking in, it felt like that was a powerful moment. Yeah, it really was. It really was. I mean, it started in those smaller moments around Amandla's story, but it quickly, I mean, the website became political almost overnight. And it was a test kitchen for us to try out these kinds of stories about activism and, you know, give voice, giving voice to young advocates and, you know, on topics ranging from Black Lives Matter to, you know, same-sex marriage, you know, and just really

experimenting with different kinds of content that went deeper than kind of what we were doing beforehand. And immediately we could see that this was content that our younger audience was craving. And we really were just tapping into conversations that were already happening online, but that didn't have a mainstream platform that was kind of giving them voice or, you know, that was a home for them. So our job was to wrap our arms around all of them and to amplify their voices. And, you know, it's something that was an experiment, really. There was no there was no model for how how to do this successfully, especially at that time. But we we did what we felt was right we and and we had a lot of we had a lot of support internally I have to say I think a lot of people assume that like working for Anna Wintour you know must you know

mean certain things and and I I think a lot of that is just Hollywood's projection of of what it is of what who she is and what it's like working at Condé Nast. But I have to say she, she has a very open mind. And when she appointed me to that role, when she promoted, you know, the digital director and the creative director and, and asked the three of us to work together to help continue to transform the brand, she really did give us the reins. And it was a really bold thing for her to do at that time. We were all very young and we didn't have experience running a brand necessarily, but we certainly were working towards making these kinds of changes into the content together for a number of years. And so for her to take that bet on us, make that

bet on us was a pretty risky, bold move on her part. And I think it ultimately proved to be successful because we did listen to our audience and we allowed them to guide us. So by the time Lauren Duca wrote Trump is Gaslighting America, which became this massive watershed moment for the brand, we were already a political vehicle. We were already writing about politics and social justice. And it was just now the rest of the world knew. And suddenly, you know, we were getting retweeted by, you know, renowned journalists. We were on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. We were, you know, just like thrust into the spotlight.

But this was work that we had been building towards and working on for, you know, quite some time under the radar. But with that one story, our digital readership jumped from 2 million to 12 million after the Lauren Duca story. I mean, it completely changed our trajectory as a brand. And while this felt very risky to write about politics as a teen fashion publication, ultimately, it sort of allowed us to reinvent ourselves and become more relevant than ever. Yeah, and meanwhile, just on a personal level, you've got a team that's driven by something bigger

at a moment where they feel like it's never been more important. And at the same time, behind the scenes, while you're doing incredible work, it is still a business. It's still operating in a really tough environment. There's a lot more eyeballs on the digital side. The print side is really, is, is struggling. The, there's a decision that gets made to go from, I think it was 10 issues a year down to four. And then eventually you learn that it's just not going to work and

you have to kind of like figure out, okay, so what now? Curious what that was, what that moment was like for you. I mean, it was, here's the thing. I knew from the moment that I discovered Harriet that magazines were going to be the first part of a much longer story, career journey. I knew that that was the critical foundation building chapter, but I knew that there would be a moment that I would come to where I would just need to take a leap of faith and start building my own thing. I knew that I knew I was going to work in television. I knew that I wanted to write books. I knew that I knew I was going to work in television. I knew that I wanted to write

books. I knew that because I had Harriet's kind of blueprint that I was working from. And so every move that I made in my magazine career, I always checked in with myself. I thought, is this the moment where I take that leap of faith? Is this that moment? Have I reached the point of diminishing returns yet? And the answer was no. I had more to do. I had more to learn. I hadn't reached that point yet.

I knew it whenever I checked in until the beginning of, let's see, what was it, 2017? So by the time I was the editor-in-chief of Teen Vogue, but when I knew this, let's see, it was basically that year that I ended up leaving Teen Vogue. I left in January of 2018, I believe, if I'm not mistaken. But I knew from the previous January coming into that year, this is the last year. I just felt it. I just felt it. I knew I thought this is I have I have done almost everything I came to do and and so much more. And I thought, if this is my last year, then let me write a list of the things that are like my bucket list items. What are the things that only I can do? I was working with someone at the time who said, the goal of every organization is to have as many people as possible working from their zone of genius. And your zone of genius is that which only you can do.

And so I started really thinking critically about what is it that only I can do from this position? And I focused on those things. One of those things was developing the Teen Vogue Summit, which was this vision I'd had for a number of years. And I just thought, this is the year we have to do this. And I threw myself into the work. And by the time the Teen Vogue Summit came to life, which, by the way, we had Hillary Clinton as our keynote speaking with Yara Shahidi. We had, you know, Ava DuVernay, who was one of my next career heroes, icons on stage. We had just the list goes on and on. We had the most incredible lineup of women come speak with these younger women.

And it was a weekend long summit, extremely successful. But by the time we were going live with that, I knew this is it. This is my like mountaintop moment. This is when I'm going to drop the mic and move on into the next chapter. And even with that deep knowing that it was time, that this was the moment I had been preparing for my whole career, there were moments where I was so incredibly paralyzed by fear. I mean, paralyzed by fear. And also, then there would be other moments where I was just fueled with enthusiasm and excitement for what was to come. But anytime you've gotten yourself,

your identity completely wrapped up with your title and your role and, you know, it's a very hard thing to separate. And it was not easy at all. But I had this larger vision and I think that's the thing that made it that made it possible for me to kind of pull myself out of those those darker moments and into the light because I had a North Star and I did have a vision for where I was going. And even if no one else could see it, I could. And so I found myself once again in that moment where it's like people are going to probably project fear onto me and their doubts about what's'm about what's next. But that it wasn't my first, it wasn't the first time I'd been through that, you know, I knew that I had to cling to the same things that I had gotten me where I was, which was my faith, and the vision that had been deposited

into me and my and the sheer force of my will to make, make it happen by any means necessary. And so, you know, it's interesting, but towards the end of that, I also, one thing Harriet has said to me from the very beginning, when I was an intern under her at Ebony, she said, you, you will be pushed or pulled, but either way you will move into your destiny. And, and I thought that became so incredibly clear to me when she left Ebony, she was pushed, but it was her destiny to, to leave Ebony one way or the other. And I just thought, okay, I would rather be pulled by my vision, by my dreams, than to be pushed. And so by the time, you know, I was told that Teen Vogue print was going to close. And I just thought, okay, this, these are

the, these are the writings on the wall where it's like, if either you go or you will be pushed into what's next for you. And I knew it was my time. And I had already started these conversations internally. And there were these other offers that were coming in. And I just thought, this isn't the time to take the safe bet. This isn't the time to chase the sexy. This isn't the time to explore these other options within these four walls. This is the time for me to break out, to take that leap of faith and to build what's next for me that only I can build. Like I, we had talked so much on panels, you know, and, and, and just in the ether, there was so much conversation about like getting a seat at the table, you know?

And then I'm like, I got the seat at the table. And then I got the seat at the head of the table. And now I just was at a place where I was like, you know what? I want to build my own table. I don't, I don't even want to follow anyone else's rules. I just want to do what only I can do out there in the world on my own. And it just, the time was right to do it. And there were all kinds of indicators pointing in that direction. And so all of that to say that, you know, it was hard, but it was also the best possible decision I could have made. And it led to the most incredible outcomes that I could not have

even predicted for myself. Times of transition are extremely, extremely hard on our ego and our psyche, but they are also opportunities that produce the most substantial growth. And I think that we all kind of are in this moment now where we are in a state of transition and it is uncomfortable and it is paralyzing some days. But I do believe that when we come out of this, we collectively that I've been through in my career and in my personal life. Like it sounds so cliche to say, but it really is like when it is the darkest, you are closest to dawn. It is cliche. It is, you know, cheesy, but it is absolutely the truth. And I think right now we're in this moment again collectively where we're all collectively in the truth. And I think right now I'm, we're in this moment again, collectively, where we're all, we're all collectively in the dark, but I also know that means that we are

closest to the light and where I'm already seeing glimmers of that light. And, um, you know, I, I hope you are too. I hope you have some, some semblances of the, of that light that's already starting to peek through. Yeah, no, I, it, it, it is interesting. I do, and we're both in New York, in New York City. So it's an interesting experience for us, to be here versus to be in a different part of the country versus to be a different part of the world. And I think people's lenses are shifted based in part on that and also based on who they are,

where they are, what they have access to and what they're excluded from. But it is this moment where it is a moment of reckoning. It's a moment of mass disruption. I am a huge believer that disruption does not exist without possibility. There are two sides of the exact same coin that can't exist without the other. And we're seeing giant organizations identify the possibility and step in and fill the needs. But my curiosity is once we, as an individual level, whatever we're moving through individually, acknowledging the fact that there are many people who are in incredible pain right now, as we emerge out of that, what will be the new possibilities that we identify and then pursue

and then create through our own will as we sort of step into the next space, which leads me to a curiosity. Like you've been a couple of years into sort of like doing your own thing now. And then we're in this really unusual moment too. And you said yes to a number of different projects. And it feels like you're sort of figuring out like, what exactly is it? What do I want this new opportunity, I have to create the next evolution of me

and what I contribute to the world. What's important to you about, and you may not have exactly the definition of what each individual opportunity or shape or form will look like, but almost from a quality standpoint, you know, what qualities are important to you that whatever this next evolution must embody as you sort of reimagine your zone of genius because I do believe that in our zone of genius, like embedded in our zone of genius is our purpose.

And for me, I know when I am operating from a place of purpose and passion and genius when I am enthusiastic. Like people say, you know, follow your heart, trust your gut. I don't know how to identify what my heart feels like because it changes a lot. And I don't know, you know, what your gut necessarily feels like. I mean, to me, what is unmistakable in terms of what I can be led by is my enthusiasm. And I have a deep passion and enthusiasm for connecting with and uplifting young people of color. I have a really sincere kind of dedication to communities of communities of color that, that I relate to that have, that I feel like I can contribute something to that

is a value that will help them identify for themselves what they were put here to do and what their zone of genius is. And sometimes it is about just being able to see someone like them doing something that they never thought they could do before. And, and so I, I have my own filter for what I say yes or no to. And, and, you know, I use my enthusiasm as a, as a filter in decision making and business. I think, you know, I've worked really hard to get to a place where I can say no. And so I don't take my yeses for granted. I don't take them lightly. I, I, I, I go through a rigorous process where, where, whereby I know at the end of it there, the answer is not yes or no. It, the answer is hell yes or no. And if I can't get to a hell yes, because it doesn't kind of, it doesn't

check enough of the boxes that relate back to my core mission, then I can't do it because I don't want to build a company that I don't want to work for. I don't want to build a company that isn't in service to what really matters to me. And so I always think like, is this something I would have wanted or needed when I was growing up? That helps inform my hell yes. I think like, is this in service to something greater than myself? That informs my hell yes. I think, you know, is this something that could, is this something that's aligned with identified goals or objectives of mine that are on my vision board? Yes or no.

That helps inform my, my, my hell yes. Like I, I will even say like when, when project, I'll use an example of Project Runway when that came to me I was deep into the writing process for my book and I I had this whole you know whiteboard filled with all of the professional goals that I had and as I mentioned earlier I always knew that out of coming out of magazines I would I would branch out into writing books, and also creating television. I had the opportunity to write on a television show while I was at Teen Vogue. As editor in chief, I was like moonlighting as a as a screenwriter for Grown-ish. And, and then I got to, like, I was asked to be on the show. And so I kind of got this taste of that world.

And I knew I wanted to do more. I wanted to dive deeper into that world and figure out how to create stories for the small screen and one day the big screen. And so what I did not have written on there was like, I also had unscripted ideas, but I did not anticipate working on like a fashion competition unscripted show, you know, like that wasn't part of my vision. And so when it initially came to me, I also felt like I had evolved out of the capital F fashion world.

You know, I'd gone beyond. Yeah, I felt like I sort of was a change agent that like incepted that world, helped change it from the inside with all of my other change agents and then like kind of moved out of it and was taking that kind of that agency with me to change other organizations from the inside out or to write to, to write about my experiences or to produce stories that were going to also have that sort of effect, like, you know, helping people, helping change hearts and minds. But I definitely didn't see myself as like a capital F fashion expert, you know, certainly didn't envision being like, didn't want to ever be like a talking head. And I just thought, no, this, it was a no at first, but the producers talked to me and they, and I, and they wanted to know what my reservations were. I was very candid with them. And, um, it, once it became very clear, which they made it very clear to me that they wanted

me to be who I am. They did not want me to be, you know, quote unquote, just a fashion expert. They wanted me to provide, you know, cultural context. They wanted me to help bring the show into this new era. They wanted to partner with me on making sure that the show is more inclusive and more reflective of the world that we're living in. And all of the values that I brought to the work that I had done at Teen Vogue, they wanted me to bring that same value system to the show. And suddenly the opportunity looked really different to me.

And then I also thought, okay, well, I could see me doing this now. But how is this supporting the goals that I have set for myself? I want to make sure that I am building my table and that I'm not just going to sit at someone else's table again. And so one of the goals that I'd written for myself was I wanted to learn how to produce television. Again, I didn't anticipate it'd be this kind of television, but I did. And I wanted to learn how to produce television. I wanted to be a producer. So I said to my, my, my reps, can we push for producer credit?

And they thought, they told me, I mean, they're not going to give you that. This is year one. They don't have to do it. You know, this might be an unreasonable ask, but one person on my team said, we're going to ask anyway. We're going to ask anyway. And I thought, okay, this is, let's go for it. We have nothing to lose. You know, I've already kind of led with no. So let's, let's see, let's shoot for the moon, see what we can get. And they came back and they said, yes. And so when that, when all of those sort of factors, everything lined up, it got me to my hell yes, I knew it in my bones. I felt enthusiastic about it. Was I scared still?

Yes. Was I completely certain that this would be the best thing for my career? Wasn't certain, wasn't certain at all. But I knew that I had unlocked that enthusiasm and I would never be able to forgive myself if I allowed fear to keep me on this side of this, of this decision. So I just said, yes, hell yes, I'm doing it. And I held hands with my, my cast mates with Brandon Maxwell, who was brand new to the show. And also

Carly, who helped convince us to do the show. And we jumped into this adventure together. And I'm telling you, it's been one of the most invigorating experiences that I've had professionally and, you know, helping to transition this show from what it was to what it can be is, is sort of tapping into all that I've, that I've done before in my career, even at Ebony, making, you know, trying to tap into a younger audience and, you know, refresh the brand to then going to Teen Vogue and trying to transition it from being just about fashion to really kind of being this mirror for this younger generation that is diverse and that does care about the world around them and sees themselves as change agents. Like, so then coming to a show like this and helping to make sure that it is more inclusive than it's ever been and that it is kind of, you know, folding in some of the larger cultural

conversations that we're having in this world, because we know fashion doesn't exist in a vacuum and it really is a mirror for the world in a lot of ways and our times. And so it's just been such an enriching experience. And again, it's something I could not have dreamed up for myself. You know, you create the framework with your vision, but you have to leave room for destiny, you know, and for what is meant to be to find you. And then you also have to create the framework and the filters to decipher what is really for you and what isn't. And so, yeah, two years, I guess it's been two years, which is wild since I've been kind of doing my I've never felt like I've had more balance before. This has been the best move of my life, but I could not have done it without all of the steps that it took to get here. And there's so much more that I have to accomplish and so much more that I will do and learn. And I certainly don't have it all figured out, but I know I'm on the right path. So I guess when three-year-old Elaine looked at her mom and said, I got this mom, she knew. She might've known what was up. Everybody knew. Everybody knew. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So

hanging out in this container of the good life project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? Oh, space, the space to create the space to be the space to expand the space to see another, to liberate another and to liberate yourself. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help

make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes. And while you're at it, if you've ever asked yourself, what should I do with my life? We have created a really cool online assessment that will help you discover the source code for the work that you're here to do. You can find it at sparkotype.com. That's S-P-A-R-K-E-T-Y-P-E.com. Or just click the link in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so,

be sure to click on the subscribe button in your listening app so you never miss an episode. And then share, share the love. If there's something that you've heard in this episode that you would love to turn into a conversation, share it with people and have that conversation. Because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold. See you next time.

Hey, so I am always on the hunt for a great podcast to listen to. The Jordan Harbinger Show is one of my go-tos. And Jordan happens to be an old friend, and I asked him to come on for just a few seconds to chat. Hey, Jordan. Hey, thanks for having me on, man. Yeah, my pleasure. You recently did an episode with Laila Ali, which I thought was fascinating on a bunch of different levels. I'm curious about that episode.

What really stood out to you about it? So L Layla is Muhammad Ali's daughter, or one of, and rather than just being famous for being someone else's daughter, which I think is always kind of sad in a way, she is a world-class boxer herself, an entrepreneur, and she and I started talking about a variety of topics. One, she owned a bunch of nail salons, and then she decided, you know what? Maybe I am gonna box. She wasn't supposed to be the boxer child. She just decided to get into it.

Turned out she was great at it, but she always wanted to stay away from it. She grew up around fame, and that really affected her childhood. And we even had some pretty interesting tangents on the show, such as why are boxers always trash talking? I thought it was kind of, well, tacky, honestly. But she told me there's reasons behind that.

It's not just part of the performance. It's sort of ingrained into the sport itself. And it's completely impersonal, which for guys like you and I, if somebody went on TV and said a bunch of nasty things about me, I don't think we'd be friends after our match. But that's how boxing works. It was a fascinating conversation. She's really, really honest and really, really insightful. Yeah, I love that. It's so interesting. So you can hear that entire conversation on the podcast. Just go to jordanharbinger.com or

find The Jordan Harbinger Show on your favorite podcast app. Thanks, Jordan. Thank you. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg.

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