Good Life Project - Elizabeth Gilbert: The Creative Life

Episode Date: September 22, 2015

Elizabeth Gilbert exploded into the public's consciousness in 2006 with the release of her mega-bestselling memoir, Eat Pray Love.Since then, she's published a series of books, given a TED talk on creative genius that's been viewed more than 10 million times, become a leading voice on the pursuit of a creative, connected and vital life.Liz's latest book, Big Magic, takes you deeper into what it means to live a creative life, offering a wonderful blend of wisdom, unabashed magical thinking, amazing stories and a whole lot of unexpected myth-busting and contrarian insights.I had a chance to sit down with Liz and, as often happens with these Good Life conversations, we ended up going all sorts of places I'd never planned. We touched on the power of curiosity and the fallacy of passion, where creativity comes from, what stops us from doing the thing we're here to do, the importance of caring for your vessel, what happens when you think you've reached the end of your capacity and her powerful lens on what it means to life a good life.This is deeply moving, revealing, insightful and sometimes pretty funny conversation. In fact, we begin with a hard-hitting reveal of a relationship that Liz had kept secret for more than four decades. And, along the way, this beautiful thought came tumbling forth:"When you come to the end of yourself is where all the interesting stuff starts." Tweet this.If you've ever wondered how to step into a creative life, how to get that thing in your head and heart out into the world, this is an absolute "do not miss" conversation. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The whole thing is shifting and moving. The ground under our feet is in motion all the time. And what all of the universe is asking you to do is to step back into that current and participate with it in creation, in becoming, in unfolding, in the movement, in the change. A few years back, Elizabeth Gilbert exploded into the public consciousness with the release of her memoir, Eat, Pray, Love. Since then, she's continued to dive deeper into the creative life, publishing more books, but really exploring this deeper question.

What does it actually mean to live a creative life? What are all the myths around that? And what are the deeper truths? Are there really creative people and non-creative people? Should you actually follow your passion or is that the worst advice that you could ever get? Do ideas come to you or do ideas come through you? These are all some of the questions that she explores in a brand new book, Big Magic. And I had the opportunity to sit down with Liz and talk about these and so much more and the journey through life and what it means to live a good life. I'm so excited to share that conversation

with you this week. I'm Jonathan Fields. This is Good Life Project. If you're looking for flexible workouts, Peloton's got you covered. Summer runs or playoff season meditations, whatever your vibe, Peloton has thousands of classes built to push you. We know how life goes. New father, new routines, new locations. What matters is that you have something there to adapt with you, whether you need a challenge or rest. And Peloton has everything you need, whenever you need a challenge or rest. And Peloton has everything

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the beginning of the conversation, but... Let's hardball it. There's something that I need to bring up right away. Okay. It's a relationship I recently became aware of that you've had apparently for more than four decades that you've kept hidden. And I'm talking, of course, about one... When I was six. Oh, Stinky Brownie McBear.

This is a big secret. This was like a huge breaking story. Oh, my God. This just in. Gilbert still has her teddy bear from when she was four. Oh, my God. You know what's so funny, though? It's like you posted that picture of it, and all these other people are like, oh, my God.

I have a teddy bear from when I was like four or five also. It was like the floodgates opened. It was awesome. Oh, he's a very important spiritual guide. Embedded within his phone is the wisdom of the ages. Oh, the hugging capacity of that particular teddy bear. He's very, he's designed, he's really, he's not great looking because he has a hunch, he's got this weird hunchback. So he really is not like a striking figure.

But he fits, you can spoon on him and he fits just right against the human torso. It's all about fit in the end. It is all about fit. You know, that's what, it's kind of like a life lesson in there. Some stinky crinkled out, like delicious old way. But you know, it's kind of funny though, is that it's almost like something like that. And for those who haven't seen the picture, just go check out Liz's Instagram. She posted like this teddy bear from her youth. From my youth and my middle age. And your middle

age. Because he's still a teddy bear. Right. We won't reveal the fact that he's actually in your bag right now. If he was a little more travel-size, he would be. You almost feel like, you know, the more that something like that has been around, the more it takes on the energy of all the different parts of your life, and it's

almost like it radiates on. We do retreats every once in a while. We were in Costa Rica a couple years back, and we went to this place. They said, we have two rooms where you can spend the next five days. One is gorgeous, and it's new, and it's like a picture window looking out, a stunning thing. The other one is nice. It's about 15 years older, but there have been people practicing yoga and spiritual practice in that room for the last 15 years. So I went into one.

I'm like, oh, stunning view. Then I went into the other. It's just like you can feel it in your bones. There's like an energy that just seeps into it. I'm thinking Stinky probably has some of that. He does. You know, that reminds me of the difference of the sensory feeling between creative work that is original and creative work that is authentic. And the difference is that when I see creative work that's original and it's

really well made, I admire it the way that you admired that view and that beautiful room. And you just, of course you admire it. It's very well done. You know, you just stand there and you think, it's really, wow, it really cool how you did that. I admire your work. But when you encounter creative work that's really emotionally authentic, it moves you. I don't want to just be walking around admiring stuff.

I want to feel my humanity. I want to feel my own life reflected in your life. I want to feel moved and touched and stirred. And the work might not be as good, as polished, as professional, but it'll probably change me in a way that looking at something that's just very accurately done will not. Yeah. I think I feel that also.

I think everybody feels that. It's like the reason why, you know, somebody can walk into a museum and walk through the halls and kind of walk out saying, somebody else can walk in and just like melt into tears. Yeah. There's something about certain, or you can, you know. Or food that, you know, you can get like, what is that macro, what is that new kind of food made that's like science food? Oh, yeah.

Where things come in beakers and it's all. It's like something molecular gastronomy. Molecular gastronomy, right? Right. Which is cool. I've been to some restaurants that serve that, and it's a very cool and interesting experience. It is a very different experience to go to my friend Margaret's Italian mother's house and be served food that makes you want to cry on your plate, you know?

And, and that's not, there's nothing original about it. It's just gnocchi. Except it's not. There's no just in that sentence. It's imbibed with humanity. It's like the love of the generation. You've seen the movie Chef? I have to imagine.

Oh my God, I've seen it twice. And it's like that, right? It's like you can... That grilled cheese in Chef. I still dream about that grilled cheese. I can almost smell it talking to you right now. It's like, all right, interview's over. We're going to get grilled cheese right now. Grilled cheese all around. But it's so interesting that you bring that up, because it's so true. I think there's such a... I think we have the tools to try and pursue polish now.

Yeah. So readily available to so many people. And sometimes we equate that with the end goal rather than just how do I let people feel my heart through what I put into the world and in some way feel their own hearts through that too. Yeah. I had a conversation just the other day with a guy who said, yeah, I got two ideas. He's a successful writer already, a successful public figure. He said, I have two ideas for two different projects. And he's just sitting on the couch we were talking about.

And he's like, you know, one of them. And he laid it out. And he said, you know, my agent, my publisher, think this would be really marketable because it's kind of like a cool way to brand this idea. And it was, as he told it to me, I thought I could totally see that working. You know, people would like that. That'll sell. That's good.

And then he said, but you know what I really want to do. And his whole face changed and his eyes changed and his voice changed and he leaned in and he just all of a sudden was ignited and started to tell me about this thing he wants to do that doesn't even make any sense because who would ever buy it and it doesn't want to sell. And I was like, dude, if you could see the difference in what your face looked like five minutes ago and what it looks like now, you would have no question about what it is that you should be doing for the next two years of your life. I mean, you can do the thing that is proven to be a brand that will successfully sell such and such number of units, or you can do the thing that reminds you that you're more than just a producer and a consumer, that you are a constituent of creation

and you are part of an unfolding universe and something is unfolding in you while you're making this thing that makes you so jazzed that your hair just stood up while you were talking to me. I want you to do that one. And I also want to read that one. That's the book I want to read, the thing that did that to your face. I want to walk me through that. I want a bit of that. Rub a little of that on me.

So what's he going to do? That's it. Is he going to do it or not? I think he is. I think he is. He was like, yeah, you're right. That's probably the thing. Can we take this sort of like a level deeper though? Because like, if, if somebody feels it that visually, when they're just talking about this thing, then why do so many, and so many of us do, why do so many of us then kind of say, no? Like, what is it in your mind?

You talk yourself out of it, and you, I have to say, the reason you talk yourself out of it is because you get rational. And rationally, what you're doing doesn't make any sense. And there's no argument that can ever hold up against that because you're right. Whatever the rational part of you is that says this doesn't make any sense to do this is absolutely right. So the moment you start making the pro-con list,

it's almost like you lose. It's absolutely, you're absolutely right, which is why you need to have a mystical or spiritual dimension underneath your creativity to combat the rational thought. Because the second that, I mean, I always say this because I always marvel at this, any act of pure creativity is the most irrational thing you can possibly do with your time. So agree.

You're going to have an existential crisis because it doesn't make any sense. Essentially, what you're doing, like here, let me break it down for you, what this guy is about to do if he says yes to the thing that ignited him, he's about to take the single most precious thing he possesses, which is his time. We're mortal. We have a very short amount of time here. And how you spend that time matters. And what you give it to has enormous consequence in your life. We're deeply aware of the ticking clock. So he's going to take the one thing that can never be replaced, which is his hours and days and months of his short mortal life. And he's going to devote an enormous amount of energy and resources and power and trouble

to creating something that nobody wants or needs, that nobody has asked him to do. It is a fundamentally really weird thing to do. So why would you in the world do that? And I guess it's because when the moment that you do leave the party comes, you're not going to be lying in your bed saying, man, it was so short, my visit here on earth, and why didn't I do the thing that ignited me to life? Because that was actually the only thing. And the rest of it and all those rational ideas of stuff that was more important, I don't even remember what that stuff is now. Why didn't I do that thing? Why didn't I do that thing I was called to do? I never want to be

in that position. I want to be in the position where I can say, I did all that stuff. I said yes again and again and again to the irrational plan rather than the rational one. I so agree with that. But it's like if you step into that place, and it's interesting, as you're talking, I'm like, what do people respond to when you see somebody doing that? You know? And my sense is also that what we respond to when we see somebody going after it on that level is that it's so rare that when we see somebody who's lit up, who's like literally become a beacon, we almost don't care what it is they're doing. Right. We just want to participate in it. So it's like, if it's a book about, you know, like hermetic gnome sculptors from Lent,

we want to know about it just because they're so lit up by that. Like maybe we can get that lit up too. And I think there's so little of that in life. Such an interesting point. And I was having a conversation with my friend, Rob Bell. Do you know him, Pastor Rob Bell? The greatest, greatest, greatest guy about this the other day. And he was saying one of the things he thinks stops people from indulging, because that's the word they seem to feel in their pure creativity for no reason whatsoever, is that they feel like it's selfish

and that they are sort of taking something away from the world by devoting that time to this thing. But he made this great point that I had never seen before. Now I wish I could put it in a codex at the end of Big Magic because it is the Big Magic. He said, in the few opportunities in your life where you've ever had the chance to meet a creative person who inspired you? You know, like, what was the first thing you said to them? Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. First thing when I met Tom Waits, the first thing I said to him was, I don't even know how to thank you for your work. And meanwhile, I'm buying it with my money. I'm subsidizing his life, right? So he like? So really he should be thanking me, right? Because I'm the consumer who's making it possible for him to live off his music.

But we all know that it's me who has to be thanking him because of watching somebody do something so great made my life better. And so if you can permit yourself to do the work that you're being called to do, it's ultimately a gift in a really weird way. I mean, I've never, every great, I mean, I met Hilary Mantel the other day who wrote Wolf Hall, my favorite book. You know, I'm on my knees practically thanking her for that work. Why? What did she do for me? She didn't even know me. But by watching somebody live at their highest, most creative, most magnificent potential, my world was a better world. So use that as a justification to do the thing that you're called to do.

It's an act of community service. Yeah, it resonates so strongly with me. And I think also, and you speak about this in Big Magic, I think one of the things that stops so many of us in so many levels is some form of fear, whether fear of judgment, fear of failure. Like there's, we're, we're mired in, but what if, you know, what if I do this? Like, rather than what if I do this and it's okay, and it succeeds and actually I'm okay. And I do the thing. Yeah.

We're, we just, we immediately spin into, but what if it fails? What if I suck? What if it sucks? What if people don't want it? Called the worry tank. It's like a think tank, but it's just a committee in your head full of voices that just say everything that could go wrong. Like, let's have a meeting in the worry tank. What if this happens? It's like worry tank stat. All hands on deck. Let's call in the best warriors we have. We don't have enough here. Call in from the outside. Exactly. Bring in the worry Marines. We really need this. Yeah, it's always fear. It's always fear that stops people from doing it. And I think the biggest, for me, the best lessons I've ever

had about fear, and I think what I regard as the biggest misconceptions going on out there about fear, is that fear is something to be conquered. And I really have come to hate the language that grows up around the conquering of fear, like the sort of like extreme outdoor sports language that's sort of like kick fear in the ass, punch it in the face, you know, wake up and tell your fear who's boss. It's really aggressive and it's really macho. And I don't know about you, but my experience in life is anything that I fight, fights me back harder. Whenever I come swinging at anything. I mean, it's like basic physics. It's like action, reaction. It's like, what, I'm under threat?

Let me show you how terrifying I can be now. That's when my fear doubles down is when I try to attack it. And so I've realized that the point for me is not to – somebody said to me the other day, tell us how you conquered your fear. I was like, it's adorable that you think I've conquered my fear. I'm terrified all the time. But I walk next to my fear hand in hand with it. I've befriended it. And the first way that I befriended it was by recognizing what a magnificent force it is and how much I owe to it.

All of us who are alive at this moment, who are adults, we're alive because at some point in our life, fear saved your life. There was some point in your life when fear said, the river current is way too strong today. We're not going kayaking. Get out of that boat. Don't get in the car with that guy. You know what? There's the thing that just says, don out of that boat. Don't get in the car with that guy. You know what? Maybe this, like, whatever. There's the thing that just says, don't do that thing. It's not safe. Don't walk down that street. Maybe it's not a good time to go to Egypt on vacation in the middle of the revolution. Maybe, like, whatever the thing was that stopped you from doing something where you were genuinely in danger. So whenever I feel my fear arise, instead of hating on it and being afraid of it, the very first thing I say to it is, may I take this moment to thank you for everything that you have ever done for me and my ancestors. I'm also here because my ancestors were afraid and their

fear saved them enough that they survived long enough to propagate so that I got to be here. So thank you for my life. I owe you literally my life. It's the first thing I say to fear whenever I feel it. And then I say, but in this moment, I need to let you know, because I know you don't have a lot of subtlety, grandfather fear. I don't really need your services right now because all I'm trying to do is write a poem. Like no one's going to die. So thank you so much for, I know you're just trying to be my really super over vigilant bodyguard but it's it's okay i'm just i'm just trying to create a thing you can come along with me me and creativity are doing this thing together um i know you're always around it's okay but i'm gonna do it anyway

because i need to do it and somehow that voice just that voice makes fear be like it drops the gun it's like oh there's nothing here that I have to kill. I'm like, there's nothing here you have to kill. You know, it's just a really hypervigilant bodyguard. It's a secret service man. He thinks every shadow is here to kill me. So I just talk to it all day. Literally, while I'm writing, I'm literally talking out loud to my fear. Thanks again. Yeah, I know you're worried, but it's going to be okay. It's just a novel. It's not literally a battlefield. No blood will be shed.

We're all going to be all right. We're all going to be all right. And the other thing is that, and you said it, I think you said it differently, but my experience is fear has energy. You know, so, and I still agree. I think, you know, that I've seen I've seen all over the place the same thing, conquer fear and also fearless. I so strongly disagree. I don't want to be fearless.

Because to me, fear is a signal. It's an energy and a signal. And it's a signal that I'm invested, that there's some heightened level. You've got skin in the game. Yeah, like there's something happening here. And then part of what my job to do is figure out like, is this the fear that's telling me to run like hell? Right.

Or is this the fear that's telling me that this matters fiercely and I need to walk into it? Wow. And then if I decide to walk into it, like how can I take the energy of fear? Right. to walk into it, like, how can I take the energy of fear and actually, you know, like use it as more gas in my tank to create what I want to create rather than just walk away from it. So to me, it's like to, to conquer it or to kill fear. It's like you're, you're leaving behind, you know, like a unit of potential energy to fuel

you to do this thing that you're being called to do. Like, what if you actually thought about it differently and figured out how can I harness this rather than let it pummel me? How can I take this and somehow become an alchemist of fear and use it to move me through this thing? Oh, and that's building. I think what you do with that energy when you put it in the pistons and turn it into something to harness

is that you're you're using it to create courage muscles you know um and that it really is a muscle you know it really is a muscle that that can be trained and i feel like every brave thing i've ever done like courage is contagious and every brave thing i've ever done made me go do another brave thing and then after that another brave thing and it wasn't made me go do another brave thing. And then after that, another brave thing. And it wasn't like, it's not daredevil stuff. You know, I don't need to, like, I don't need to go bungee cord jumping

in Guatemala to know that I'm alive. I just need to- You just need to walk down a street in New York City. Yeah, exactly. I just need to wake up and have immediately my mental illness start in my brain and be like, all right, how are we going to cope with the shit show of my... It's like, oh yeah, I'm alive. I'm alive. Believe me, I'm aware. How am I going to deal with this crazy person whose body I live in today? That's really the fundamental question every single day.

And what's the bravest? And mostly for me, what's the most interesting way to do this? Is there a more interesting way to do this? Like, is there a more interesting way to do this? Well, let's do it the more interesting way. Whatever that may be. Yeah. What's behind the what's the most interesting way to do it? I want to have an interesting life. It's literally just that simple.

I want to have an interesting life. And, you know, to me, I have such a simple definition of creativity. And I often hear people say, I don't have a creative bone in my body. It's a cliche that you hear people say. It's an expression. It's a thing people say. And I always say to them, like, I don't want to fight you about that. I totally disagree.

I believe if you're alive and you're a human being, you're a creative being. It's the hallmark of our species. We're the creative monkey. But, okay, I'm not going to try to fight you on that. What I will do, though, is ask you to take the word creativemark of our species. We're the creative monkey. But okay, I'm not going to try to fight you on that. What I will do, though, is ask you to take the word creative out of that sentence and replace it with the word curious and see how insane that sentence sounds. When you say, I do not have a curious bone in my body. Whoever said that, that's not a thing anybody would ever say unless they were really in the jaws of a terrible, debilitating, serious depression.

If you're at all alive, if you have any vitality at all, of course you have curiosity in you. And the way that you craft a creative life is by respecting, following, and trusting that curiosity. And curiosity only asks you to just turn your head and look a little closer and see if it's worth investigating and go a little deeper into it and see what it is. And on the other side, the sort of split, the fork in the road is always going to be the thing that makes you curious and the thing that makes you scared. And a creative life is a life where you routinely choose the path of curiosity over the path of fear.

Not like twice or three times or four times, but daily. Yeah, like systematically. Systematically. It becomes your habit and your practice to say, I don't even know why I'm interested in this, but I'm interested in this and I'm going to look into it. Have you developed any practices that you feel like they help you make that systematic choice day after day after day after day after day?

You know, I feel like if I, and I don't always succeed at this, like I certainly haven't succeeded at this in the last two weeks. But generally speaking, I know this about myself. I know that if I can take care of what I call my animal, and my animal is the human body that I'm in, which is just an animal body. It's a mammal and it's warm-blooded and it's a female mammal. It has all these characteristics of the female of the species. Remarkably, like a human lisp. I know. It's a 46-year-old female homo sapien, which is the animal that i am yeah right um because we are and then inside

of that animal for reasons that none of us will ever know there's a supercomputer um that not another animal on earth has right we have that crazy we're aware of our awareness um we have that consciousness we have um sparks of divinity within us we've got all this extra features but all of that is the software the The hardware is just like these bones, these muscles, this digestive system, this animal. And if I can first and foremost take care of that animal and make sure that that animal is treated as I would treat any animal in my care, that it gets a soft place to sleep and healthy food and nice walks in the sunshine, and that it's not being traumatized or abused or stressed or

hurt in any way or being pushed beyond what it can do. Like if I had a horse, I wouldn't work it until it collapsed in the saddle. You know, if I had a dog, I would beat it. You know, like I wouldn't, I would take care of it would be my responsibility. So if I can take care of the animal that Liz lives in, then the supercomputer functions really well. And the supercomputer and the consciousness, once the animal is taken care of, will know what to do next. And it will make good decisions. And it will make the most interesting decisions and the most creative decisions and the most worthwhile decisions. So the practice is really like, are you healthy? Because none of the other stuff is going to work if the animal that you live in is just a broke-down mess.

Yes, so great. And I say that saying that I don't always do it. I'm really busy. I have a book coming out in a week. I've been traveling. I'm tired. My animals run down right now. And I know that when that happens, I don't believe a word my mind tells me. Because when my animal gets really tired, my mind is a big liar. The committee reconvenes. That's when the committee starts saying like, there's no point, there's no purpose. So that's the practice.

And I've had to learn that. Look, I've learned it by the school of hard knocks. I've learned it by treating myself like a rented mule and then losing my creativity, losing my inspiration, losing my faith, losing my certainty. So that's it, man. It starts there, and then everything else will be much easier. Yeah, and what's so interesting also is I think one of the things that tends to happen the most when we get to that place where we're like, I need to create on a higher level.

I need better ideas. I need to, you know, whatever it is that you're making, whether you're an entrepreneur or a writer or a painter, that very often the time where we think we need to access the next layer of creative output, creative capacity, is the time where we abandon the vitality practices. Right. Because we're like, I don't have time to do this, not really realizing that that's the container. That's the container. That makes your brain receptive to your magic.

Yeah. That's the last thing to not be taken care of. I wish I could say that all the time also. I know, exactly. But I'm better. I'm so much better. And I think also as I'm getting older, I'm just getting less dumb. And a lot of what that is too is about the spiritual practice of setting boundaries on other people's expectations for what you're capable of doing.

And that's very hard when you are a person like me who just wants to please and deliver for everyone. And so as I've gotten older, too, I mean, I just had a conversation with my publicity director in Canada, because I'm going on my book tour to Canada for one day. And she had laid out this huge publicity schedule, because that's her job. And I wrote back and said, go through all of those and pick the two most important ones. And I'll do those two. And she wrote back and said, basically, like, I've got a better idea. Why don't I move them around so that they're all sort of in the same area. And we'll do these three at the same time while we're all in the same studio. And, you know, the 10-year-ago version of me would never have been able to hold that line

because I would have thought, oh, it must be really important. And I wrote her back and said, you know, or you could just narrow it down to the two most important ones and we'll do those. Because I'm going to be on book tour for three months. And I know you only have me for one day. And so you want to get the most out of me that you can. But this animal has to go through three months of this. And I'm not going to do that to this animal and make this animal have a breakdown and get pneumonia and fall apart. Because that doesn't serve me. And it certainly doesn't serve anybody else. The only way, like my whole thing right now is all I want to, all I'm ever trying to do is help people be more free.

And if they see me enslaved, then anything I say has no meaning. You know, if they see like an exhausted, beat down, like run down person who's giving all of her energy away to everything everybody else wants her to be, then what authority do I have to stand there and say to them, don't let this happen to you? Right? If I'm going to be smoking what I'm selling, that's the only way it's going to work. It is. It is. But I don't disagree on any level. What's frustrating for me, and I don't know if you see this also, is that it's so not

the norm. And like I said, I'm human, you're human. I blow through. I have a long-term devoted meditation practice, which for me is one of the things that allows me to go to that place where I've got to live in heightened levels of uncertainty for a long period of time and be baseline okay, not completely be swimming with a lot of blood in the water. But it took me decades to learn how not to bleed out along the way. And every once in a while, I forget and I go back. But I still see so much. And I was hospitalized a few times as a friendly reminder along the way. It's like, hey, shmucked. Your dear friend life is just trying to help you. It's like, hey, schmuck, you know. You've got to at some point.

Your dear friend life is just trying to help you. It's just trying to help. And sometimes you have to go back and do that grade again. Right. Life will keep teaching it to you until you get it. It does. It's the whole thing. That's the beauty of life.

She just wants you to know what's going on. The lesson never goes away until it's learned. It's just the nature of the process. She doesn't mind if you repeat second grade 20 times. She's just like, we've got to do this again. We'll do it again. Back you go. Back you go. How good. It's just the nature of the process. She doesn't mind if you repeat second grade 20 times. She's just like, we got to do this again. We'll do it again. Back you go. Back you go.

How good. Let's do it. How many more times do we have to do this before you start to see a pattern? We are beasts, right? Yeah, we're lunatics. It's fabulous. And what a great trick for God to hide inside us because a human being is the last place you would look for God because we're insane.

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available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. You talk about, it's interesting you brought up, you referenced depression and curiosity. And it reminded me of a conversation I had a few years back with a guy named Chip Connolly. And during the conversation, that was the first time I'd ever heard somebody offer that there might be a relationship between those two. He said, look, people think the opposite of depression is happiness.

He's like, the opposite of depression is curiosity. Right. Because the moment you have a spark of curiosity, it becomes fiercely impossible to stay in a state without possibility. Right, right. And I never really thought about that. And you just sort of like brought

that whole conversation back. Well, yeah, and that's why we have to be makers too is because we are made to live in a state of vitality. We live in a universe of motion. All evidence points to the fact that we live in a world where things are changing every minute, every second, every, I mean, what is it, every five years you have a totally new body um you know because you're shedding cells and growing cells i mean it's all in motion and so um again my friend rob bell has a great line where he says despair is a spiritual condition because despair is the mistaken notion that tomorrow is going to be exactly the same as today like that's when you fall into despair when you're in a place in your

life where you're like okay this is just all it's ever going to be. It's just going to be this every single day, the same. And it's a lie because all history points to the fact that tomorrow is actually not going to be at all like today. Like the whole thing is shifting and moving. The ground under our feet is movement, in the change. And as soon as you can start to believe like, oh, maybe it's not always going to be exactly like this. And maybe my actions matter because maybe the choices for how I'm spending my time will affect how tomorrow is going to be different from today. That's when you begin to reclaim your life. I remember when I was in the deepest part of my own depression. And I remember I was sitting in the corner of my couch, as I had done for months

and months and months, middle of the afternoon, weeping, just a little pile of mess, just a little pile of lostness. And it was a very comfortable corner in a way. I had chosen, like an animal, the most comfortable corner to fall apart in. And I remember just thinking, this is all I do now. I just curl up in this corner of this couch and I cry. And it's always the same corner and it's always the same tears and it's always the same story in my head, everything about this scene. I'm just in Groundhog Day here. It's always the same tears and it's always the same story in my head everything about this scene i'm just in groundhog day here it's just repeating and repeating and repeating and then i was like i have to alter something about this and i thought what can i alter because i felt so crushed under my life and so trapped and i thought i can stand up and walk to the middle of my living room floor and stand on one foot and cry.

And that day was such a victory for me because it was this return of agency. I couldn't stop crying because I was really sad. But I was like, I have agency. I can choose where I cry. So I stood there in the middle of my living room standing on one foot crying, and I was like, I changed something. So now what can I change tomorrow? What can I change the next day? Baby steps, you know?

And then I cried actually that day. I ended up sort of laughing because it's absurd. After a while, you look at yourself standing in the middle of the room. Standing on one foot. Standing on one foot crying. Like obviously maybe this is not as bad a situation as I think it is, right? And maybe we can change literally everything about the situation that I'm in right now. If we can change that, what else can be altered? And that's the beginning of renewal, you know? And that's the ultimate creative act,

is resurrection. Resurrecting your own lives. You also distinguish between curiosity and passion. Yeah, that's a big one for me. Take me through that conversation a little bit. You know, this has been a big change in thinking that I've had in my life over the last few years because I used to be a big fundamentalist preacher about passion. And, you know, certainly would tell anybody who was stuck near me listening that that was the truth and the way and the alpha and the omega and the only you know the only manner of living and that you had to find and identify that one thing within you that made you feel like your head was on fire

that one thing you would jump off a cliff for that one thing you would sacrifice everything for and you had to put every molecule of your being behind that one thing. And that's the only way. You know, I was really a preacher about that. But I had my, I was given an awakening about it through a letter that a woman wrote me on Facebook after she had come to see me speak at an event. And she said, after hearing you speak tonight, I have never felt like more of a loser. Because I don't have one of those. I don't have a passion. I don't have one thing that is so clearly everything to me, one thing that I would risk everything for. And it isn't because I'm lazy and it isn't because

I'm depressed. I've spent my life tearing myself apart trying to find my one tower of flame that would be the guiding principle for everything to follow. And I'm telling you, it's not there. I'm interested in a lot of stuff in very light ways. I've never been able to land on one thing and stick with it. I feel like a failure. I feel like a freak. I feel like there's something missing from my DNA.

And I came to hear you tonight looking for guidance, and you just made me feel like an idiot. And I was like, oh, my God, how many people have I done this to? When you get something like that from somebody after, how do you feel? I mean, what happens inside of you? Grateful because it is so rare that I change my mind about anything because I am such a certain person. I'm such a freaking jackhammer.

And if somebody is able to wave a flag in front of me that even my blinders can't ignore to the point that it radically changes my whole paradigm, that is one of the most, that's always one of the most interesting moments of my life. Because I just thought, wait a minute, like really, when was the last time, Liz, that you took this truth that you believe to be

the only true thing in the world and actually looked at it to see if it even is true? Is it universally true? It's true for you. Is it the only truth? Is there an only truth? And then I started thinking about all the people who I know and admire and love

and the lives that they're living. And none of them have had a path that was clear and straight with one burning tower of flame and certain passion that they never veered from. They've lived these lives that look like pinballs and pinball machines. They've tried this, they've tried that, they failed here, they got fired from this thing, they accidentally stumbled into this thing. Many of them have very unusual and convoluted paths on the way to finding where they were ultimately supposed to be. And the way they got through all those convoluted, strange mazes and paths was by following their curiosity until their curiosity took them where they were meant to be, which meant sometimes a long and tricky and often painful journey.

And so that's totally radically changed what I preach. And so now, I mean, also I found, I realized finally, that telling people to follow their passion is kind of a useless piece of advice because if you have a central burning passion, you are doing it. That's the definition of what a passion is. And if you don't have one and someone tells you to do it.

It's frustrating as hell. It just makes you feel like you're being judged. And so I just say, just take passion off the table and just follow your curiosity. Trust it. It's frustrating as hell. It just makes you feel like you're being judged. And so I just say, just take passion off the table and just follow your curiosity. Trust it. Take it wherever it wants to go. Believe in it and know that whatever it leads you to, it's going to make for a bigger and more interesting life. Yeah, I love that. I've gotten really curious about curiosity over the last few years. One of my big questions is, is it teachable? And if so, how? And so I want to hear what you have to say. Yeah. Well, I think everything is teachable because we're the most influential

of monkeys, us humans. Everything is contagious and everything is teachable. So fear and insecurity and self-hatred and racism and rage are all teachable. So obviously then love and compassion and grace and curiosity and exploration and inquisitiveness have to be teachable as well. And, you know, we learn it by modeling ourselves after people who are living the way that we want to live. Like that whole sense of, I want some of that. You know, when we're around somebody who's radiating a kind of full-on engagement, don't you just want to like, I want that. Walk me through that. Show me how that thing. And I think it's actually totally okay to approach that person and say,

walk me through this. How are you that? What's going on? How did you get? I want that thing. Like whatever the thing is, whether it's their inner peace, their excitement, their compassion. I have a friend who's like the biggest role model in my life right now because she lives in a state of such total acceptance and forgiveness of other people at the same time as being really good at setting boundaries and knowing her limits and telling people when to back off. She lives, she does not, she literally does not judge anyone

and she is never standing in self-righteousness ever and that's the thing I struggle with. And so, you know, I literally say to her, walk me through that. Show me how you do that. Show me how you do that thing where somebody disappoints you and you let them know that they disappointed you and you guys have a weird fight it's awkward and then you let it go because i can't get to the let it go part a lot of the time like how do you

you know show teach me like the stuff i want to learn i will go to the person who's the best at that and sit at their feet and just, because I believe I can be taught. I mean, I think maybe it starts with believing that you can be salvaged. You know, if you don't believe you can be taught, then why would you bother? And also, I think it's coming from a place of, like, having a beginner's mind. You know, we're so terrified of, like, uttering the words, I don't know. You know, because it's like all of a sudden, oh, but then you're a weak son of a bitch if you don't know that. And we're so terrified.

How'd you get this far without knowing that? Right, exactly. It's like a mutual friend of ours, Brene Brown, her work on vulnerability and shame. We're so mired in that, that instead of stepping into an opportunity to just ask, how? You're like, what? Just tell me something here. We're just like, no, no, I'm good. I'm good.

Yeah. And then we're like, I'll Google it or something like that. I can figure it out on my own. I don't need help. Well, that terrible sense of you're on your own. Right. Exactly. Like, yeah, don't you dare let anybody know what you don't know how to do.

Yeah. But that's, you know, when you come to the end of yourself is where all the interesting stuff starts, you know? Talk to me more about that. Yeah, I mean, I always think where I feel like I'm collapsing is when I come to the end of myself, where I literally just don't know what to do, you know? Like I'll be in a situation with somebody in an interpersonal level

and we're having a problem with each other. And I've tried all the quivers in my bow. You know, I've tried A, I've tried B, I tried C, I tried D. And I feel like we're not getting anywhere. And now that means when you come to the end of the quivers in your bow, you're at the end of yourself. You got nothing left. And that's a point where you can either fall into total hopelessness and despair, or you can say,

this is really interesting. Help. Help. And then you ask for help from somebody who has the thing you need. You call on the wisest person you know and go, okay, this is what happened and I don't know what to do. What do you think? You just open yourself up to the point that, well, this must be a place where I need to learn because I don't know what to do. I just failed and I'm so ashamed of myself and I feel like I really blew it and I have no future.

I'm at the end of myself. So now you reach for someone else. When you're at the end of yourself, you reach for someone else, whether that's a human or a teacher of the ages or God. That's where the interesting part starts. But you can't stop there because then you'll never, that's it, then you're done. That's where you see people get to the end of themselves sometimes and just pitch a tent. And they're like, well, I guess this is where I live now. You know? It's not so bad.

And you're like, well, I mean, I kind of love your self-acceptance. But also, like, you got another 40 years to live. Wouldn't it be more interesting to kind of not just, like, dig a foxhole and just live there at the end of yourself and be like, well, I guess I'm an alcoholic. I'm just going to drink every day forever. Well, what if, you know, maybe you don't have to. Don't you want to? What if there was something else? What if there was something?

What if there was change? It's funny, when I get to that point, and I've had this conversation with a few other people, sometimes it's helpful for me to kind of say, what would somebody else do? You know, should they land in this same point if it wasn't me? Like, what might they do? What would Pema Chodron do here? What would... I'd just bow in front of anything she says. What would she do here?

What would, yeah, that's why we need heroes. Right, it's almost like it allows you do here? What would, yeah, that's why we need heroes. Right. It's almost like it allows you to step outside of yourself and say, okay. It's almost like if I was giving advice, because we can always tell somebody else what to do at that moment. Right, right, right. Right? Like, well, what would I tell them? Yeah.

You know, what would the logical thing to do here, which I'm utterly blind and incapable of seeing or doing right now. Yeah. And then what might happen if I actually did it? No, no, no, it's not for me. But maybe it is. Well, the stuff you have been doing doesn't work. I mean, that's the other thing I do now is when I'm really in a dilemma about how to behave or what to do, I think, what would past Liz have done?

And then I do the opposite. Because- It's like a George Costanza opposite thing. past Liz have done. And then I do the opposite. Because... It's like a George Costanza opposite. If I've been in a scenario like this before, and you probably have, because life repeats and repeats and repeats. So if I, like, you know, going back to interpersonal stuff,

say somebody has disappointed me terribly, and I'm really upset and hurt, and I don't know what to do, because that's where I shut down because I just have no idea how to cope with that, then I would think, well, what would 24-year-old Liz have done? Because I know what she did in circumstances like that and I know it didn't lead anywhere good.

So why don't you do the direct opposite of that? And it's terrifying because that's my habit. That's my go-to place. That's my safe place. Except it isn't safe because once I do that action, I live in regret forever about it. And I hate the way it turned out.

So if you always, like if situation A arises and you always act with reaction B and the result of that is always C. You can't stop situation A from occurring, but you can trade out the B for a different value, like put in D, put in F. This is why I loved the greatest thing that my guru in India always says is become a scientist of your own experience. Try out another way. And it might not work either. You know, what's that line from Rumi? Your life has been a mad gamble,

make it more of one. You've lost at the dice 100 times, roll the dice 101. You know, just, okay, this didn't work. Okay, that, oh, wow, that hurts just as much. Oh, that's even worse. That was just what I was always afraid would happen. I'm not going to do that again. But like I tried. I tried, you know, all I'm trying is to just learn as much as I can by doing a new thing. Yeah, it's so, we stopped short, like so, it's interesting, like in the world of entrepreneurship, the aspiration for so many people is what they call the hockey stick moment where you kind of work and work and work and work.

And then all of a sudden, boom, something happens and you have explosive growth. But if you talk to any given founder who had the hockey stick moment, the day before they hit that moment, the honest ones will almost to the one tell you, I couldn't have told you whether we were about to fold the next day or whether we're about to take off. And literally every day they're asking the question. They're living in just massive, massive state of uncertainty and question and just trying something new and hoping and praying. But then people kind of hit against that, when do I hold, when do I fold question. I think we hit against that in life also. And it's so frustrating for so many people. There's no answer there.

No. You can't know. And I see people wanting promises from me when they say they kind of like they want a blessing for me. They want a benediction for me that says if I pursue this creative path, it's all going to work out. And I can never give you that. I don't know. It's too weird.

It's too random. I know this. I know that inspiration would love to do something with you. And that inspiration would love to take your hand and jump off a cliff with you because inspiration loves doing that. And the net may or may not catch you. Inspiration doesn't care. You do because it's your life at stake, right? So you may fly, you may fall, you may end up with a billion broken bones at the bottom of the cliff. And then the next thing that's guaranteed to happen is that inspiration is going to come over and see you laying at the bottom of the cliff and be like, oh, my God, dude, that was so much fun.

You want to do it again? You want to do it again? And you're like, I'm destroyed. And it's like, I know. It's not so much fun. Did you see how far we jumped? Isn't that amazing? And your initial reaction is, no, I never want to do that again.

If this is what it feels like to give 100%, then no thank you. No thank you. And you sort of like wrap yourself up and tend to yourself and you go back to your life, at which point you either never do anything again and you're safe, or one morning, because inspiration is there every morning, inspiration does that thing where it peels open your eyelid and looks and it goes

are you still alive and you're like yes and it says you want to do it again and finally one day you're like oh fuck it let's do it again

you know let's do it again because the original thing is far enough away and then you do it again and then there's still no guarantee but the alternative

to me has always been like what else are you going to been like, what else are you going to do? So agree. What else are you going to do? Not anything? Ever? I mean, okay, but really? Is that life?

Is that really, really, really what you want? Yeah. You speak of inspiration as if it exists outside of the individual. And you also speak about ideas as if they exist outside the individual, as if they're sort of floating around, you know, like their own independent animals looking to become, I think your language is manifest through the vehicle of people. And it was interesting reading that from you. I had a chance to sit down with Steve Pressfield a couple years back, and we were talking about this over some organic pancakes in a cafe in Santa Monica.

First of all, of course they were organic pancakes. Of course. It was a cafe in Santa Monica. You didn't have to say organic. Completely redundant. So, because his idea of the muse is that it exists outside of you and that, you know, with, you know, your job is to show up every day and to do the work and to prove terrifying to me because you're acknowledging that the genius is not in you you're just a vehicle which means you have no control over that and he's yeah but but here's the flip side of this he's like you know it's also really freeing because then your job is not to come up with the awesome stuff it's just to sit down and prove that you're worthy and do

the work and i was like huh i never really kind of thought about it that way. And then I stumbled upon your sort of lens on ideas in the ether, sort of like looking for people. Looking for, the universe is looking for collaborators, baby. It's a universe that is becoming and it needs help. And it wants to work with you. It wants to be made. And for me, the reason that is not a scary idea is because i don't ascribe to a sort of narrow view of the

muse that says i mean i think that the two ways that artists are usually given to look at their work is either you are the servant of the muse right you're just a hand puppet or you are dominating that thing like you know nabokov said my my characters are all galley slaves like no when somebody said to him do your characters ever take lives of your own he's like of course they don't they're galley slaves you know which is so him um which is so like so nabokov it's just like it all comes from me and i'm in charge right um and i love him and that's great. And that's how he did stuff. And the other alternative is the super hippie trippy way, which is very passive, which is, you know, has no muscle in it, which just says like, well, I guess I just have to wait here for this thing to happen to me. And the truth is,

I don't think it's either one of those options. For me, the reason that that idea is so terribly exciting is because it's a partnership. It's a collaboration between a human being, a human being's labor and the mysteries of inspiration. You bring the labor and the devotion and the faith and the trust. The inspiration will do what it wants, but it can't work with you if you're not already working. And you can work even without inspiration. You know, like most of my life is me sitting there just sort of slogging through it like a farmer and not being particularly satisfied with the results. But knowing that I'm showing up for my side of the contract, for my side of the deal, I said, I was going to do this, I'm going

to do this. And then months into the project, there'll come a day when suddenly there's air underneath me, you know, and I'm not doing it anymore. It's, I'm being given information that's coming from I don't know where I look back at what I wrote. There's pages of the novel, the signature of all things. The last book that I wrote that I go back and look at, I have no recollection of having written it. I can honestly say I don't know where that came from. But I spent four years doing research on botany and evolution and Darwinism. And I read like thousands, literally thousands of books. I was at my desk every morning at six o'clock working.

So when I say I don't know where it came from, I kind of do know it came from my devotion, but there's another level of it that came from somewhere else. Because I know the difference between something that's coming from me and something that's coming through me. And what I live for are those moments when something comes through me.

But for that to happen, I have to have a lot of hours in the can of stuff just coming out of me. And then I reach the end of myself and there's something else there. Yeah. And that is a whole lot of faith. It's the best game in town. It's the best game in town. There's no other way i would rather live my life it's the greatest it's the greatest privilege and one of the reasons i get annoyed when when creative people start to get really complainy is that i just think where's your gratitude

for the fact that you get to even do this that you get to even try that you get to even do this, that you get to even try, that you get to even try. There are millions of people in the world who have virtually no agency over their lives whatsoever. And you're lucky enough that you live in a world where you have even a tiny little bit of agency and you get to use it to interact with inspiration, which is the weirdest, most fascinating force in the universe. And all you want to do is be mad. All you want to do is be mad at it? Where's your gratitude? This is a really interesting thing that you get to do.

Just because it didn't work doesn't mean it wasn't interesting or it wasn't worthy. That's a powerful place to come from. That's just me preaching. Yeah. So we'll come full circle. I think just spinning off of the exploration of gratitude. So the name of this is Good Life Project. So if I offer that term out to you, to live a good life, what bubbles up?

To show up for it, you know. And showing up for it for me means really having the discipline to stay awake and alert and responsive. And I think that's the highest form of prayer in a way, is to say, for reasons that none of us will ever know, God trusted me enough to put a life in my hands. And it was my own. I thought I could do it. God was like, I'm going to give this bozo a life to take care of and to curate and to create and to come into being, and I'm going to throw all sorts of obstacles at this life and see how you decide to puzzle them out and sort of setbacks and failures and

disappointments. And let's see if you can get through the whole thing without becoming embittered. I feel like that's one of the most interesting challenges in the world. Like, hey, what if you went through the whole life and by the end of it, you weren't bitter, despite whatever happened or didn't happen? That's pretty cool. That's a really interesting way to live. The most interesting choice that you could possibly make is, I'm not going to let this turn me sour and dark and small, but instead think of it as just another opportunity to learn and grow and be. That's a good life.

And it has nothing to do with what kind of stuff you get out of it, you know. And you and I both know that some of the people who we admire the most on an intimate level have, like, taken such severe face plants in their life. Like, they have a trail of disasters behind them, addictions, alcoholism, and shame, terrible things that they did, police records, sometimes like some of the people who I just, who I revere and, and who I come to when I'm in distress. Like if you could have seen who they were 20 years ago, you would cross the street and, you know, like put your wallet in your front pocket, and you should, because they were dangerous, screwed up, disastrous people. But they had moments of reckoning where they suddenly realized, I don't just want to be a million unconnected molecules flying through space, bumping into, fighting, and getting knocked over by everything I see. I want to be an integrated thing.

I want to be a whole thing. I want to be a real thing. I want to be a good thing. And they sought that out. And in so doing, became heroes. That's a good life. It's the only life. The rest of it, you're just a meat puppet paying bills.

And that's not going to do it for me or for most of us. And it doesn't have to have magnitude in the outcome. It will have magnitude simply because you laid claim to it and made it your own. That's magnificent enough and rare enough. Thank you. You're welcome. So my mind is pretty much officially blown by that conversation. Having the ability to sit down with Liz Gilbert and just spend some time with somebody who is so authentic, so generous, so genuine and wise was a real gift. I hope you really enjoyed it and found a lot of value in the conversation as well.

If you did, I would so appreciate if you would just take a few seconds and share a review or rating over on iTunes. And if you're curious about what's going on with Good Life Project, Bigger picture, we've got some really neat things happening that you might be interested in. And to find out, all you need to do is head on over to goodlifeproject.com. We've made it really easy. There is a link right at the top of the show notes in whatever device you're listening to this to. You can just tap on that and you'll be there in seconds. As always, thank you so much for your

time, for your attention, and for your generous energy. I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.