Good Life Project - Elizabeth Miki Brina | Speak, Okinawa

Episode Date: April 15, 2021

Growing up outside Rochester, New York, all Elizabeth Miki Brina knew was that she was different, an outsider, and she blamed her mom, a first-generation immigrant from Okinawa, for it all. Elizabeth���s mother was working as a nightclub hostess on U.S.-occupied Okinawa when she met the American soldier who was deployed during the Vietnam war who would become her husband. Leaving her home, family, friends and culture, to move to the U.S, the language barrier and power imbalance that defined their early relationship followed them to the predominantly white, upstate New York suburb where they moved to raise Elizabeth, who felt perpetually othered among her peers, turning that feeling into a cocktail of anger and rebellion.Decades later, Elizabeth came to recognize the shame and self-loathing that haunted both her and her mother, and began a process of reconciliation, not only to come to terms with the embattled dynamics of her family but also to reckon with the injustices that reverberate throughout the history of Okinawa and its people. She came to see the profound courage and strength and saw her parents enduring marriage in a profoundly different light. We dive deep into this journey, which is beautifully detailed in Elizabeth’s haunting memoir, Speak, Okinawa (https://bookshop.org/a/22758/9780525657347), which is a heartfelt exploration of identity, inheritance, forgiveness, and what it means to be at peace with who you are.You can find Elizabeth at:Website : https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/611688/speak-okinawa-by-elizabeth-miki-brina/-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So growing up outside Rochester, New York, all Elizabeth Mickey Breeden knew was that she was different, an outsider, and she blamed her mom, a first-generation immigrant from Okinawa, for it all. Elizabeth's mom was working as a nightclub hostess on U.S.-occupied Okinawa when she first met the American soldier who was deployed during the Vietnam War and would eventually become her husband. And leaving her home, her family, friends, and culture to move to the US, the language barrier and power imbalance that defined their early relationship would follow them into the predominantly white upstate New York suburb where they moved to raise Elizabeth, who would then feel perpetually othered among her friends and her peers,

turning that feeling into this cocktail of anger and rebellion. And decades later, Elizabeth came to recognize the sense of shame and self-loathing that haunted both her and her mom and began this process of reconciliation, not only to come to terms with the embattled dynamics of her family, but also to reckon with the injustices that reverberate throughout the history of Okinawa and its people. And she came to see the profound courage and strength and saw her parents enduring marriage in a very different light. We dive into this journey, which is beautifully detailed in Elizabeth's haunting memoir, Speak Okinawa, which is this heartfelt exploration of identity, inheritance, forgiveness, and really what it means to be at peace with who you are.

So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. We'll be right back. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. There's so many things I'd love to explore with you. But I mean, I think there's this really interesting starting point for me, which is I knew nothing about Okinawa, but for one thing. When the first time I heard about Okinawa, but for one thing, when the first time I heard of Okinawa, it was in the context of the sort of famous blue zones, you know? So it was this notion that there are a handful of these places around the world where people seem to live forever and be

astonishingly healthy, you know, like until sort of like the latest days where there's an unusually high number of people who are over the age of 100. And Okinawa was one of those. And when people tried to deconstruct, well, what's going on here that would make that happen? Like the thought process was from the researchers, well, it's a blend of community and ikigai, you know,, a clear reason to get up in the morning. And it was primarily with Okinawan women, not men, actually. So it had always been on my radar in that context. And I'm thinking, wow, it must be this sort of magical place that's always been that way. open and then pepper through the book that the history is, is actually way more complex and complicated and in, in entire, you know, generations and seasons really dark as well. Yeah. I thought of that too, how, how long people live there. And at first I was told that it's the diet, you know, like the diet and the climate and things like that, like physical things.

But then I became aware of the fact that this tight-knit community, right? Like they're never lonely. Like there's always, when I went to visit my family, they're just constantly doing things together and sharing and that can help you live longer as well. And I'm also think trying to attach, like, how did that come to be? And maybe it is because of this dark history as well. Like all they have is each other through a lot, a lot of the time. And they're also, in my experience, very grateful people. They're just so happy for what they have. And yeah, I think when you go through something like that together, it really binds you to each other and to a place, too.

They're very happy and proud to be on that island. And I am too. Whenever I'm there, I do feel that, that I'm so glad that this is where I came from. So when you use the phrase, when you go through something like that, share a bit of what we're talking about here, because people probably don't have a lot of context. Yeah. Where do I start? Well, it was a colony of China for a very long time, a tributary of China. And then for a long time, since about 1600s, I believe, it was a colony of Japan. I know 1600s is a very, I don't remember the precise date at this moment. But so it was a colony of Japan and they've been subjugated most of their lives, but still left to their own devices. Got to maintain their culture until it was annexed to Japan in 1879. And then they were, it was always lesser, right? They were part of Japan, but not

really. They had that kind of that inferior status. And it really, their economy suffered from it, their way of life suffered from it, their language was forbidden, their history was just banished and replaced by Japanese history, right? And so, like, you don't get to have your history, and yet you don't get to fully belong to us with us. So that part of it. And then during World War II, they used Okinawa, Japan, as sort of a last line of defense when the U.S. were taking back the territories that they had conquered. And they thought, okay, well,

if we can hold the U.S. on this island and just punish them, just show them what we're capable of, the kind of fighting that we're capable of, then maybe that will deter them from coming to the mainland. And so it was a plan just to have the most bloodiest, brutal battle in Okinawa and all the people that suffered from it, that had no stake in it, in the war.

So about 100, and this number in my research changes a little bit too, depending on what source, but about 140,000 Okinawans were killed. Which at that time is what, about a third of the population? A third. Yeah, exactly. A third of the population. Which is stunning. Yeah. And right. Can you imagine just a third of your island gone? And that doesn't account for everyone who was starving, the injuries and also after the island was crushed hundreds of thousands of bombs were dropped on that island for 82 days so just the complete devastation to see your your homeland charred black i remember just reading the

images like it's it's black it's ash and what that would do to your psyche. And so then afterwards, for a long time afterwards, whoever survived was homeless for many years and lived in camps. Yeah. I know you tell a story of, I guess it was your grandmother, who basically had been storing, stowing potatoes. And effectively just had the family take everything they could and basically just live wherever they could in the mountains, live away, just surviving as long as they could on those, which ended up being a couple of years. Yeah.

Well, right afterwards, they just had to scavenge. So they knew it was coming. They were repairing. The whole island was repairing, storing food. And then when the food just ran out, it was 82 days, right? And everything, there's nothing growing anymore. And all the animals are dead. And so after that, yeah, just, just scavenging. And that's one of the, and my mother was born three years after World War II, which you think kind of, oh, three years. Maybe they could clean it up.

But she says that all she does is remember just being starving, just hungry all the time. So it took a really long time to recover. Yeah. After the war, the U. the US kind of moved in and then over a period of years, and I guess even decades, in the beginning, it sounds like there was no rebuilding effort because it wasn't seen as the type of place that the US was obligated to invest in. But eventually they started to really, I guess, realize it played a pretty big strategic role and wanted to set up a very large presence there and

started to rebuild the island. But even during that window, I mean, it seems like it took a really long time and the way that people were treated was pretty horrific. It was a really long time until... And it sounds like even when your mom was in her teens and then a young woman, it was still a lot of poverty, a lot of extraordinary hardship. Whereas there was a certain presence that was kind of living okay, which was largely US military. And then there was the rest of the island. Right. And to have just no agency, that took me a while to get inside that mindset because I grew up in America where we're, you know, we, we think we can do anything, you know, like we grow up thinking like I can do anything, right?

Like that's, that's what we're told. And she, she had grown up in this, in a time where everyone was just so much grief, right? So much grief and so much suffering and so much. This happened to us. We didn't, you know, like we have no control over it. People keep doing things to us. And with the militarization too, they had no say in it. All these decisions were made without their voice.

And all the crimes committed by the U.S. military too, just in the aftermath. So even after all the death and destruction, then the crime, right? And the accidents, like all the jets that crashed on the island and vehicular homicide, not to mention just the murders and rape.

So it's still this, like people just do things to us and they get away with it. Right. And to grow up with that point of view. Right. The lingering effects of that. Yeah. It's sort of like the, you know, trauma is baked into the DNA.

Yeah. Yeah. Of your existence. Exactly. You know, it's just part of your daily existence. Your mom ends up meeting your dad. So your dad the owner of a telephone answering service, one of the first telephone answering services in New York City. I always think that's kind of a cool business. They took messages for companies. And also, this is kind of funny, too, because he still does this to this day.

It was a wake-up service, too. It would be like your alarm clock. Some people like to just have a phone call, like a, you know, like at a hotel that they used to do. And he always did that for me for a really long time. Just would call me to wake me up. He'd be my alarm clock. But he, yeah, and he grew up in the Upper West Side of Manhattan in a, just a beautiful condo and went to private school on Park Avenue, went to a Jesuit university. He's very, very highly educated. And my mother had to quit school before she finished eighth grade. So it's just this complete opposite backgrounds. Yeah. So they end up, the intersection then is your dad ends up joining the military. Yes. Yes.

And I guess this was during Vietnam. So he ends up over there and also ends up spending time in Okinawa. And that's where they meet, where he's a soldier, like deployed, but sort of like taking a break when he's on Okinawa, I guess. And then him and your mom connect. The way you describe it is sort of, they didn't seem like they were the most aligned people in the planet, but there was something that each saw in the other that said, okay, so maybe this is going to get me where I want to be. Yeah. On multiple levels. Exactly. Yeah. They both, I think they're both fulfilling fantasies, right?

And they're both dreamers. And that's something I, it took me a long time to understand that. Like, cause I always thought, what did they see in each other? Like what could possibly, but my mother, she grew up in this island that was so subjugated and then saw Americans as this power, status, like freedom. And so she had in her mind from a young age that she just wanted to marry an American. She just, she wanted to get out of Okinawa. And my father had, after he had been fighting in Vietnam, he always had an affinity for Japanese culture. He was very obsessed with samurai.

And that's why he joined the military, too. He was like, I want to be this noble warrior. I want to save people. And that's kind of where his mentality was coming from, too. It was part of this attraction that it is this, this kind of mutual objectification or romanticization of each other. And also not to mention that, and it took me a while to understand this too, because they're my parents, but when I see pictures of them, I'm like, they are beautiful. Like they were both just so good looking that I, you know, okay. So that was probably maybe 95% of it. Right. As a, as a,

just the traction goes. So yeah, I think that all of that played into it. And another thing that they told me too, is that they both saw each other as different from everybody else. My mom said my dad acted different than the other soldiers. And my dad said my mom acted different from the other nightclub hostesses. So just that a little bit of standing out. Yeah. I mean, it seems like for your dad that a sense of duty and honor is just like, it's what wakes him up in the morning. It sounds like the way you describe him to this day, that is the thing where he's the protector. He does the honorable thing. He will make safety, which for your mom at that point, where you're essentially like, you open your eyes and you're

not safe. Beyond the attraction, beyond whatever it is, it's sort of like there are these two primal needs that somehow come together in this meeting. Right. So they seem like complete opposites and that it would never, like how could these people fall in love? But then when you think about it and all these factors, it's like, of course, of course that happened. Yeah.

And I think safety, a hundred percent on both their parts, the need to be safe and the need to keep others safe. And eventually, you know, they end up getting married and then they come back to the States, spend a little bit of time driving across the country, which it sounds like it's actually sounds really sweet. Like your dad is like, let me show you this vast land. Like, I don't want to just take a plane to New York, but let's actually like, I want to show this to you. And was that your sense of what was really going on? That's so my dad. And I don't know, because my mom hates road trips. She hates being in a car. Every time we drove to... I grew up in Rochester and we'd always... Whenever we drove to visit my parents in New York City, she just slept the whole time and just like kept her eyes closed.

And I lived in Montana and California for a few years. And that's something my dad and I love. We love to just drive around. I'm sure I got that from him. But my mom didn't care for it that much. I remember we were going through Glacier National Park, going to the Sun Road, and my mom's doing Sudoku. Well, like, you know, like these vistas are, so I don't know what her mindset must like was in that car. And I don't know. And I kind of also maybe he traumatized her with road trips, perhaps after never having, because Okinawa, you could drive across it in an hour.

And she's just spending days in this car. So I have no idea what it was like for her in there. And I tried to ask her and it changes, right? Your recollections of things change based like whatever your current state is. And so sometimes it was oh god you know that why did he do that to me and then sometimes it's it was so much fun like i know you know like uh um it was very exciting and you know i think it was both right yeah that's that it's that non-binary thing right it's sort of like two things at once yeah exactly you get the feeling

that um had your mom done that now it like she was doing the analog equivalent of um us just like being on instagram the whole time like driving through national parks with the most stunning things it's like pick your head up yeah yeah look right right and she would get out of the car and walk around be like, this is beautiful. But, yeah, just inside looking is not. Yeah. Yeah. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

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Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. So as you mentioned, the family ends up just just outside of uh rochester which is for those that don't know it's kind of like upstate ish new york and so now you have your dad who you like grew up in new york city and now it's sort of like found his way to upstate new york your mom who's come from this place and now she's dropped into this suburb of an upstate New York City. Kind of like, okay, so how do you make a life there? And then pretty soon after you enter the picture. So I can't even imagine for her, especially what those early years were like.

Trying to first navigate a relationship with your dad in this completely foreign place without the language also. And also, it sounds like there's this cultural, while on the one hand, the roles that they both aspire to play kind of allowed them to be the yin and yang in the early days. When you drop into everyday life, and then that becomes weeks and months and years, that becomes a lot harder to sustain. Yeah. I mean, I can't, I can't imagine the courage. I'm still like really in awe of it to do something like that, to just have that much faith in yourself. I was just like, I'm going to leave. I'm going to leave. I that, to just, um, have that much faith in yourself. I was just like, I'm going to leave. I'm going to leave. I'm going to leave with this person. I mean,

they knew each other fairly well, but still it's like, I'm going to leave with this person. And this person is going to be all I have. And the difficulty of just assimilating and the resistance that she got, I just, I'm so in awe of her strength that she was able to do it. She made very fierce attachments. Like whenever she, I know that all the places that she lived with my dad, even before I was born, it was Chicago and Phoenix. I mean, she was completely isolated in Phoenix and Manhattan where, I mean, she had my, she had my grandmother. She had a very close bond with my father's mother. She was very grateful for her, but that's something that my mom, that's what she did. She just, she, she found a person that, and clung to this person, not, not in a

needy way, but just like, we are, we are going to bond. We are going to make a strong bond, kind of like what she did with my dad. She would have like one friend, right? And I remember she still, to this day, Chicago is actually where I was born. I think I was only there for six months though. But my parents lived there for five years and she has one friend from that time and who was also Okinawan. They just found each other. Thank God. They still talk to this day. They're very close. So I'm grateful that she is such a survivor. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting to hear the way that you reflect on it now. And I want to explore that a whole bunch more. But those reflections didn't come early in life. I mean, cause you're growing up then, you know, as a young person in

outside of Rochester, New York in a predominantly white suburb, it sounds like also. Yeah. And you've got a dad who quote fits in, you know, but you've got a mom who also is really different from everybody else. Doesn't have a, you know, like a really strong command over the language. And then you're the kid who's kind of biracial. Although, do you even consider yourself that? Or when you're a kid, are you just kind of like, I just know that I'm on the outside, but I really don't understand what's going on here? Mm-hmm. Yeah. There wasn't language for it. There wasn't any way that I could articulate or explain it to myself. I don't know. I don't even know when I first heard the word biracial, right? I don't know when any of this started to make sense to me. Like, I wish I could pinpoint it. But as a child, I saw that my dad was the strong one. He fit into this world. He knew how to navigate it and he could teach me how.

And I just saw that my mom was completely different from everyone else and didn't seem, and this is a child perspective, didn't seem competent, right? Like she can't do anything for me. And so I, you know, I felt like disappointed in her, you know, as a child was just like, mom, you're supposed to take care of me. Like, why can't, you know, help me through this. And so I rejected her. And I also with myself, too, intuitively, even though I didn't know it by racial, but intuitively, I knew that my mom's the reason why I'm different.

My mom's the reason why I don't belong here. And I hate her. That was the logic that went for. I blame her. I blame her. And now growing up, I can't even imagine what it must have been like to be on the receiving end of that. I don't even know how my mom dealt with that and survived that. I don't think, which is another testament to her strength. I don't know how she just took it. It was always kind of like an elephant in the room, right? Like we never talked about it, but I'm sure she felt it. I'm her daughter, right? So I'm sure she felt it. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you didn't talk to her about much. There's those, the feelings that you're describing,

but also it really just seems like, and like, look, this is, it's not all that unusual that especially a teenager and especially a teenage girl and a mom, there's often a lot of friction, right? And then there's a classic rebellion that every teen has to have with a parent. You know, so yes, there's that, right?

But what was later on top of this was you judging her as lesser, less competent, less of a human at least appearance wise, was passed down to you. And that made you feel different. There's this visual reminder that, that like this part of me, that's making me feel like I don't fit in is coming from you, but there isn't the mature understanding of all the grace and the strength and the struggle that led to this moment in time. And also because there's a language barrier between you and your mom, it's really hard for her to even convey that to you. If at that age, you're even interested in that conversation, which wasn't happening. Yeah. I mean, she would try so hard and I mentioned this in the book, the drinking. I think that maybe that was just how she was like,

I can try to open up. She tries so hard to talk to me and to tell me her stories. And I was just so resentful of it. I was like, I don't want to hear this. This doesn't fit in what I think my life should look like, right? Like, you know, I wanted very normal, typical American childhood and identity. Like, that's what I wanted. I wanted whiteness. You know, I internalized all the racism, and that was my goal. And so anything that she told me that didn't fit that, I really resented it. And also because of the language barrier, I couldn't, oh gosh, teenagers are so terrible. I didn't have the patience. Anytime she was looking for a word, anytime that she just repeated herself over and over

again, I was so frustrated and again, still disappointed because I thought that it was her fault. You know, like why, why doesn't she speak English? Right. Like what? I mean, why she should just learn. Right. And another, another of this internalized xenophobia, like, Oh, why don't they speak English? Right. And I'm directing that toward my mother. Yeah. And that's, that silence was very, very profound through most of our lives together is that I felt so uncomfortable in her presence, you know, but also at the same time, not like it's very strange, right? It's both.

So I remember being uncomfortable, not knowing how to talk to her, but at the same time, still feeling incredibly like safe around her, just when it was me and her. Maybe there's a little bit of boredom because I felt like she can't say anything interesting to me. But also, I can't help but think that because of how close we are now through the writing of this book and the repairing of our relationship and then the ease I feel with her now that I can't help but think that it had to have been there all along. Something, something, right? There was a line that you wrote that I'm trying to remember exactly. It was something like, I didn't want her to be my mom, but I also didn't want her to leave. And it's like, you're just constantly trying to struggle with those things, you know,

to have that sense of like, I know that like underneath this, there's a threat of unconditional love. Like I am, she is here, but at the same time, I blame her for all the reasons that I don't feel okay on a day-to-day basis. Yep. Exactly. Which is kind of a brutal place to be. You mentioned that there's a window where your mom really started your drinking. And it sounds like in no small part, it was a coping mechanism because as she's living her life, she's being rejected by her daughter. She's got a husband, your dad, who it seems like has always been very strong, has been the rock, has always been there to take care of her. And yet she is like waking up every day and almost grieving the loss of her culture, the loss of, you know, like the family that she left behind, even though there was so much struggle and so much poverty and so much violence. It was what she knew. And every day that things weren't the way that she hoped that they would be when she had that fantasy, when she first met your

dad, was another day that reminded her almost like of what she gave up. And alcohol to a certain extent becomes like a way to make it through the day. Absolutely. She drank to console herself, but also I think to make herself visible. I think that was one of the ways that, because she was so disregarded by me and I think by others too, that maybe it was also a way to get attention just because if I drink this much, then it's like like everyone look at me it's very it's it's it's hard to think about that uh she had she had to live that way for so long um but also I do want just want to say too how how impressed I am like amazed that how she carved out these little moments of happiness for herself too. You know, the fierce attachments that she would make with friends at the restaurant.

At the restaurant too is where, which is also sad because in a way she was, she got to be more herself there than at home. That was something I realized later. I mean, everyone who worked at that restaurant loved her. The younger waitresses would call her mom. I remember one that was my age, and she was from Japan, would call my mom crying and confide in her. And I remember being jealous, right? Because I couldn't do that with her, just talk to her in Japanese and just share something like that, like in a way that we both could understand, just so effortlessly explain to each other. And we developed that later on, this way of talking where we really, we speak in code, but it took so long.

Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting, right? For you to then see that and sort of like see glimpses of, oh, so I'm making all these assumptions about my mom, but then there are these moments where I see how she is with other people and that she actually, she's the person that people go to and that she's there and she's wise and she can have these deep conversations, but it's not happening with me. You describe a moment where she really just is struggling and kind of just has a meltdown and ends up under the table. And there's this realization that, you know, you crawl under with her. And it's almost like, you know, the average impulse up until then is like, oh, my God, I can't deal with this again.

But something in you at that moment is like, no, I need to actually be under the table with her, hugging her and crying. And, you know, it sounds like there was a moment where something was revealed to you. Yeah, I that stuck with me for a while. I was 26 at the time. And that memory, that moment stuck with me for a very, very long time. I trying to understand it because I didn't really know what what was the impulse. I do a lot of digging and searching. Like why then? Right. And I think it, because at that point I was, I was 26 years old and I had,

um, failed. I had failed so many times, like just relationships and interactions of belittling. And I'd suffered, suffered as a woman and trying to, trying to connect with other people and facing a lot of rejection. I think what I saw finally is that the world is a not nice place, right? Like the world can be a not, a very unkind place and it can do things to you and it's not your fault. Right. I always blamed her. I was like, this is her fault. Like, like the way, the way that she is, right. Um, she has control over this. And then I think I was getting to that point. I was just like, nope, sometimes, sometimes we don't, right. Sometimes things just happen and we're, and we're the way that we are because of what has happened to us.

So I think, yeah, it's just becoming mature. I'm like, what would I want someone to do if I'm crying underneath a table? And that's what she was. She wanted to be seen. She just wanted to be seen. And that's essentially what we all want, right? We want someone to just see us and hold us and just be there. Yeah. I mean, but it's when that happens between a child and a parent, like a mother and a

daughter, especially when there's so much strife before, you know, it's the type of thing that I think most kids don't ever really think about their parents as individuals with their own journeys and like what they struggled with and what's going on. And I think when something happens, whether it's just having lived long enough, having been through your own independent trauma or suffering or struggle, and then coming back to a moment where just somehow it's like the veil is removed, then you're like, oh, this person is a human being. You know, and there's a lot that's brought them to this point. And I kind of get it more now because I'm a lot younger. I haven't lived nearly as much life, but I've been through some stuff too. And it wasn't all my fault.

You know, it's like it opens a vein of empathy. Yeah. And that's what it is. Just it's this person is human. And because this person is human, this person is me, right? Because I'm human too. And through so much of our lives, we're the center of the world. And just to finally be able to just to put someone else's situation in yours, the whole transference is a remarkable threshold, right?

I'm very grateful for it. Yeah. Yeah. I hope that's something that happens to everyone. Yeah. When I hear this and I'm like, what goes through my head is, you know, I think so often we look at another person and we kind of in our minds, we're saying like, you are the source of my trauma. Your existence is the source of my trauma.

And then sometimes we hit a moment where something is revealed and we're kind of like, no, actually, maybe it's in part your trauma is in part the source of my trauma. But it's not your existence. It's not your identity. And it's like, oh, okay. I think it changes the way we experience both them and ourselves. It's like, yeah, it's like, we're in this together, right? It's just a moment of like, okay, well, I guess we're on the same side because whatever's causing you to hurt is also what's

causing me to hurt. Like you're not causing me to hurt. So let's, let's hug each other. Yeah. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton.

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Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him! We need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. When you think about that moment, like you said, you're 26, you're still out in the world making your own life. You spend a chunk of time in Montana and then in Oakland, where it sounds like Oakland also for you, it's kind of this really eye-opening moment

because the first time you're kind of like, oh, wait. So I think the words you used was like, it's the first time that you felt seen, not exposed. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah. Growing up in upstate New York, being one of the only people of color, I went to school in Boston and that, who I surrounded myself with in Boston was all white people. I think that's because that's what I knew, right? And also because of the school that

I went to and that it was predominantly white. It can be a very segregated city where you can do that if that's what you're looking for. And then Montana, of course, mostly white. But then when I got to Oakland, I mean, it was one of the first cities where I was like, this is, they're everywhere. You can't avoid them. You can't avoid them. And people of color, they're everywhere and they're all mingling. And to see people who looked different, like nobody looked different because everyone was different, right? Like no one stood out. And then to see people who look like me, it was powerful. And to see so many different types of people, just, it's fine. We're all just hanging out. And that's what I was saying, like where before I felt eyes on me all the time.

Even if it wasn't true, that's how I felt. I felt like, oh, everyone's looking at me. And I think lots of people, especially self-conscious children and teenagers, we're all feeling that way. But I just felt the very hyper awareness of my appearance all the time because of where I grew up in my heritage. But Oakland, I was like, oh, I can just blend in. It's wonderful. And people get me. That's one thing that I really appreciated there too. It's just this very multiracial, multicultural, it was very matter of fact, you know, it just existed. So it was, that was, it was a great place for me. It was very eyeopening.

Yeah. I mean, just to, to have that feeling. And then of course, you know, you go to the next logical place from there, which is Kansas City. Right back, yeah, exactly. I know. Cause you gotta keep sort of like swinging the pendulum. Like, Oh, okay. But you end up, you're like in a relationship, falling in love together. You moved to Kansas city and then eventually to New Orleans, which is like this other sort of like really beautiful kind of like a lot of

people use the phrase melting pot for New York, but I think New Orleans has a lot of that too. Yes. And engaged and, and about to head on this big trip to Japan with your family or to go back also to Okinawa. And right before that, you know, basically decide that this marriage is not going to happen, but the trip still needs to happen.

You know, so you go back and now you're with your mom and your dad and now you have like family there and i mean it's it's fascinating right because the dynamic changes where all of a sudden like your dad is the one with two feet on the ground who knows everyone knows everything is the guide the protector the safety keeper like but it kind of gets reversed there. Yeah, yeah. And to see my mother like that, a lot of things happened on that trip. It was so intense, so revelatory. Because you mentioned about breaking up with my fiance

right beforehand and having that experience and then seeing my parents together. I just appreciated their love for each other in a way that I never had before, because whatever they did, whatever, however difficult it was and whatever flaws, they made it work. You know, they just, they committed and they said, you are my person. And they just did that. And that was something that came out during that trip as well. And then also seeing my mother, like as an adult, seeing my mother with her family and seeing just the comfort and the ease, even after 40 years and seeing what she left behind. It was a profound sacrifice and just trying to figure out why, why did she do that?

Why did she do that? It's what launched me into wanting to tell this story. Yeah. When you see that, it seems like there was this gradual evolution over years of you just starting to really see your mom and see your mom and see your mom. And also not just your mom, but your dad. And also along the way, I think we all very often go through an evolution of how we think about love. You know, like what is it actually? And it sounds like when you're younger, you look at your parents, you're like, this isn't it.

Right? Because we all have this like mad, romantic, crazy, passionate love affair. And often it starts that way right and then but it's sort of like with with your perspective over time and just seeing them and seeing like oh so you know like maybe love is like always being there maybe love is is protecting and not walking away when you want to maybe it's you know i think it's it's interesting to see how we all sort of step into and examine the notion of love and what it is and what it isn't. And where's the threshold where it's okay for us to stay in it? Yeah, exactly.

That's a question I grapple with all the time. What is not okay? What should I not put up with? And I think part of it, too is that it has a lot to do with seeing my mother, right? Where like, no one wants to end up like their parents. Like no one's to end up like their mother. And you know, it scared me for a long time too. It's like, I don't want to be in that situation. Anything that started to resemble it, I was like, got to get out. I'm going. Like, I'm getting out of here. But then, yeah, you get older and you

are like, well, you know, like it could be worse, right? What she has is, you know, it's, she chose it. Ultimately she chose it. I mean, there are so many things that she didn't choose, right? There's so many things that she didn't have a choice of what to do, but ultimately she chose my father. So I have to respect that. And I do. Yeah. And it seems like in this season of their life, it's the kind of thing where like, there's often like a whole middle season where it's like from the outside in, you're just like, why? And then you reach a season in life where it kind of, you're like, oh, I get it. And maybe even to them, they get it. Maybe they each had their own questions along the way. And I think a lot of it also has to do with sort of like the evolving definition, not just of love, but also like, what is the construct of marriage? And we like to sort

of like say, well, this is what it is and tell everybody else what it is. But maybe it's the notion of allowing people to like define it the way that is like really gives their life what it needs. Exactly. Exactly. It's just really like what works, right? Like just do, do what works, do, do it however you need to figure this out. And I, yeah, I always thought that it was this image or this mold in my mind of, of what love is and what, what a marriage should look like. And yeah, exactly what you're talking about, that this season of their lives, they're both 72 now. Wow. About to turn 73 very soon. That's been really remarkable to watch them get closer still, even after all this, right? And the fact that like, you're still settling into your choices at that age in life, right? You're still accepting them. Like, you're still like, just like, okay. And yeah, they're at peace for the most part. They're at peace with each other and peace with themselves. And that's what else could you ask for really when you get to that age? So I'm happy for them. Yeah. So how do you, I mean, as we have this

conversation, having gone through that experience with him coming back from Japan, really seeing, like getting this opportunity to see your mom in a profoundly different light and also to see their relationship. And then you step back into your life, you know, and you're like, okay, so I'm back. You know, the person that I was with for a chunk of time who I thought I was going to be with, that's not happening anymore. I've had these revelations about my past, my parents, and these concepts. When you step back into your own life, how does that change the way that you do it? Oh, man. Part of the reason why it didn't work with my relationship with my fiance and all the ones before that is because I didn't, I really didn't know myself. And also I didn't like myself. I really just, that inferiority that I internalized

for so long, I just, I was like, why would anyone want to be with me? And with him, I was constantly questioning that. It's like, why do you want to be with me? Why do you want to be with me? Which exhausted him, right? He was like, I can't explain this to you anymore. Like I have to go. And we're still very good friends. Like we forgive each other. We understand. But I think that's where, that's where I decided I need to start there. Like I need to, you know, I need, I need to figure this out. And it wasn't a conscious choice. Like, it was not like I came back from Japan. I was like, I need to figure this out. Like I need to figure me out. But that's just what I started to do. I started to just writing and being independent, just being on my own for a while. And then, but really like getting to know myself and then getting to just like myself and be proud.

And it's so hard to really explicitly connect the dots. But of course, seeing my mother with her family just had everything to do with that. I think maybe it was just, wow, there's a whole side of me that is good. What my mom had with her family was just so beautiful. They were so wonderful. So there's this whole side of me that is good that I don't even know anything about. So yeah, that's where the investigation began. Yeah. You write, I'm going to quote you the you. Oh goodness. That was a little awkward. You're right. I didn't realize,

speaking of your mom, I didn't realize that she couldn't change history, that history wasn't her fault, that she could never escape the legacy of defeat, of trauma perpetuated by her very own husband and daughter, that I could never escape either. Now, whenever I try to comprehend her loneliness, I'm completely overwhelmed by her strength. Yeah, that took a long time to get to. I'm 39 now, right? And I started writing this book when I was 34. Better late than never, right? But I do feel... I think of everything that we could have done if I had gotten to that sooner I can't help it I mourn it very often but at the same time just very grateful that I did come to it I did come to that understanding of her and and that feeling towards her because I also see how much happier she is, right?

Because she has her daughter, right? So I'm just glad we get to enjoy each other for the rest of our lives. Yeah. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So sitting here in this container of a good life project, if I offer the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? I think living a good life is knowing yourself and being kind to yourself and in doing so being kind to others. Because I said before, we're all just figuring it out. The world can be very threatening and scary. And so we should help each other. We should give everyone the benefit of the doubt, right? And try to understand each other. Thank you.

Thank you so much for listening. And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes. And while you're at it, if you've ever asked yourself, what should I do with my life? We have created a really cool online assessment that will help you discover the source code for the work that you're here to do. You can find it at sparkotype.com. That's S-P-A-R-K-E-T-Y-P-E.com. Or just click the link in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so,

be sure to click on the subscribe button in your listening app so you never miss an episode. And then share, share the love. If there's something that you've heard in this episode that you would love to turn into a conversation, share it with people and have that conversation. Because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold. See you next time. You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.