Good Life Project - Embracing Change, Creativity & Play | Manoush Zomorodi

Episode Date: May 25, 2023

We want to hear from YOU! Take our survey.Ever wish you had the courage to try something entirely new? To create something that didn’t exist before? Even if you’re already successful at your career, and you enjoy much of it? Sometimes we just feel this call to try on something new. That’s one of the big ideas we dive into with award-winning journalist and podcaster Manoush Zomorodi. • Manoush had success at NPR but later started her own company and podcast, showing it's never too late to try something new.• Manoush recommends side passions or "garden plots" that let you experiment freely, fueling your main work with energy and excitement.• We discuss the rapid impact of technology on identity, creativity and relationships, and how to harness change instead of just surviving it.• Manoush believes in laughing at life's absurdity, being proud of getting older, and taking action instead of waiting on others to live a good life.• The conversation covers big ideas, passions and perspectives on living well from Manoush's viewpoint as an award-winning journalist.Join us as we dive into big ideas, passions and living well with award-winning journalist Manoush Zomorodi.You can find Manoush at: Website | ZigZag PodcastIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Kevin Kelly about excellent advice for living.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKED. To submit your “moment & question” for consideration to be on the show go to sparketype.com/submit. Visit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I have so much respect for people who are trying to do things differently, even if it's just a little bit. It takes a lot to change a daily habit, to change a structure of an organization, to rethink a paradigm. And I just really admire that kind of creative thinking. So ever wish you had the courage to just try something entirely new, to create something that maybe didn't exist before, even if you already were successful at your career and even enjoyed much of it? You know, sometimes we just feel this call to try on something new. And that's one of the big ideas that we dive into with award-winning journalist and podcaster Manoush Zomorodi. So you may recognize Manoush as the host of NPR's TED Radio Hour and her journalism focusing on how technology and business are transforming humanity

has been read, seen, listened to literally by millions around the world. She's also the co-founder of her own production company and the host of the ZigZag podcast, the business podcast about being human from TED. And Manoush's book, Bored and Brilliant and TED Talk, their guides to surviving the attention economy. She was one of Fast Company's 100 most creative people in business. And what's pretty cool, much of all those incredible accomplishments I just listed out, it all happened in just the last handful of years after a long acclaimed career in journalism and podcasting under the umbrella of other major news and media brands. We dive into what made her start her own

production company with a longtime collaborator and also what happens when real life meets the reality of switching careers and running your own business. We talk about the importance of having creative outlets or what Manoush calls her creative garden plot to experiment and develop ideas even when you have a great main gig and even when it doesn't necessarily make you money. We explore how side passions give you this place to seed new ideas purely for pleasure. And often those ideas and the passion it incites infuses your main work with more energy and excitement. And we also dive into how technology like AI, social media, mobile devices, and more, they're rapidly impacting everything from relationships and mental health to career

trajectories, our sense of identity and creativity, sometimes in amazing ways, other times in scary ways. We dive into how the pace of innovation is compressing time between breakthroughs and forcing global conversations that we've never had before, whether it's all driven by fear and hope or both maybe, and how to not just survive stunningly rapid change, but also embrace and harness it. And of course, Manoush shares her lens on living a good life, laughing at life's absurdity, being proud of getting older, and taking action when dissatisfied instead of relying on others.

So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X.

Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him! We need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. You know, it's interesting. I was actually recently re-listening to an episode of yours, of ZigZag, from May of 2020, which was, I'm guessing, one of the hardest episodes that you've probably ever recorded. And I want to circle back to that later in the conversation maybe, but you said something in that conversation that I thought just so beautifully sort of showed how you show up

and how you've shown up in the public space. And you said, I love to think of big ideas and weird ways to explain them to people. And I was like, I'm nodding along as you're saying that. I'm like, yeah, that's how I know you. So there's so many places that we can take this conversation. And I'm excited because there are some things I definitely want to touch on. If you think about in this moment, big ideas that you are just, you can't let go of that are sort of like in your head, what's really grabbing you right now? Jonathan, I have not experienced anything that's come upon us so fast as this AI

conversation that we're having. I mean, I just got back from the annual TED conference in Vancouver. I mean, it was like AI up the wazoo, the most strange applications of it, the most wonderful applications of it, the most scary applications of it, the most scary applications of it. The place was like the convention center was like on fire, buzzing, talking about this. But I came back to my normal life. And what are my friends in the book club talking about? AI were, you know, I just took my regular Pilates class and everyone was joking about AI. And it's rare that you get this simultaneous conversation about a technology that is going to change the way we live and work forever. And both regular folks and the technologists

and the business people are all having the conversation at once. I think that's exciting because for so long, I feel like the people who actually don't get a say in how these technologies impact their lives, it almost happens before they even know it. And they're the people who build the technology, the people who sell the technology, the people who monetize the technology, who often make those decisions. And we're sort of left with the good, which trust me is great. I'm a huge prognosticator and lover of technology, but we're also left with like the knock-on effects without ever having been given a chance to weigh in. And so this feels like a pretty interesting moment that we have come across too. And look, I hope we do the best we can with it. I am hearing this disciplinary

sort of thing happening though, that users, quote unquote, and ethicists and technologists and legislators are all kind of talking at once. And that's exciting. I'm right there with you. I cannot think of another time where there's been that level of confluence where basically everyone, like everyone who could potentially even be affected by this wants to be in the conversation now. And even if they don't want to be in the conversation, they realize something so big is happening that they have to be in the conversation. Either it's the conversation is so siloed or they're this sort of like the quote, the innovators, you know, followed by the early adopters. And then maybe you're down there and

sort of like it trickles out. Eventually people realize, oh, this actually the early adopters, and then maybe your agenda. And it trickles out. Eventually people realize, oh, this actually is affecting my life. But often that's years later, sometimes even decades later. And it's all just the compression of time around the conversation. My mind is being blown by that phenomenon alone. And actually, I think that brings up a really good point. Maybe that's what it took. Maybe the compression of time is the only way to actually line up all these people to have a simultaneous conversation. I mean, the compression of time, I think that's really, oh, God know, I'm always looking for the silver lining and I feel like, wow, maybe we have one just in this, in that it's made it possible for an actual cultural conversation to occur. Okay. So here's my question then. Do you feel like that compression is being driven more by fear or by hope? Interesting. The compression is being driven by innovation, period. I mean, I think like the God, we humans are amazing, aren't we? We just keep going faster, better, faster, quicker, more efficient. And as a scientist explained, there are reasons behind this. You know, you've heard of Moore's law. Well, we're in a different sort of law where the time between change is just going. It's not our imagination. It's going faster and faster and faster. What scares me is that I feel as though we're at the mercy of it as opposed to feeling like it's something we can dial up or down.

We did hear about that group of technologists calling for a six-month moratorium. And everyone was like, oh, that's so nice. That's so nice that they all thought maybe we should do that. Some of them financially invested in competitive offerings too. So that was interesting. 100%. Exactly. And so all the people are like, yeah, you do that. We're not going to do it, but you do that. We should think about this. I mean, it's just a battle to figure out how to apply it as quickly as possible. And like some of those things are amazing. I just saw a demonstration of Khan Academy and a new tutor that they're going to have. I think it's called like the Khanabot or something ridiculous. And the demo was amazing. The tutor was like,

huh, I see what you did with that equation and I can understand why you applied that logic. But let me show you a different way to tackle this math problem. And it was lovely and thoughtful and like explain things really well. And is it a substitute for a human? No, it's totally not. But if a kid like so many kids don't have access to tutors, which now, by the way, here in New York City cost over two hundred dollars an hour. And let me tell you, my kids blew past my mathematical abilities in seventh grade. So obviously there's a role for these incredible things, especially also in medicine, the diagnostic capabilities that we're going to have thanks to AI. I'm curious to hear what you think. I feel like normal people

don't quite understand that they're already using AI in their normal lives and that there are these really profoundly groundbreaking ways that we're going to use it and that we're, we skip ahead to like robots are going to kill us and it's complicated. It's complex. It's layered. Yeah. I was talking to technologist who's been in this space and deep in various STEM fields for about 25 years. And she was saying to me, because I was kind of asking her, what's your take on this? What's going on? And she's like, it's kind of funny because if you've been in this space deep into it for a long time, there's nothing new happening here. We've seen this. We know that elements you know, like elements of this have been

baked into like so many of the things that we use on a daily basis, you know, the consumer side just hasn't really understood. And now like the big difference is that it's burst into consumers, like the every person's consciousness and people are simultaneously like amazed and hopeful and freaked out beyond belief. And it is, you just described, you know, sort of like the evolution of Khan Academy, which originally was started by this one guy, Sal Khan. I know, right? And then became this phenomenon. And now you bring AI into it and you increase the accessibility and also, you know, the way that somebody can relate to it. Khanmigo, that's what it's called.

Okay, so that's the evolution of it. Got it. And it's mind-blowing, especially when you think about the conversation around equity and equal access to resources to help, to support. For some people, it's not going to make a huge difference. For a lot of people, it has a potential to level the playing field like nothing I've ever seen before. 100%. And when you think about that,

you can't help but be excited. I think about helping people understand their finances or coaching them to not get into debt. I think of us as new genetic treatments in part with the help of AI. I mean, I just read this incredible article. This is rather personal, but I am a person who goes to get a mammogram every year and then gets this letter that says your tissue is incredibly dense, which means that like, A, you have a higher risk of cancer and B, we kind of can look at your boobs, but we can't really look at your boobs because of the way your body is built. And it's incredibly disheartening letter. And the doctor said, well, you still got to get your annual mammogram, blah, blah, blah. Well, this new technology is saying that we now have so much data about how

cancer progresses in different types of tissue that we can apply artificial intelligence to this and be able to potentially predict what people with very dense tissue, breast tissue, whether they will get cancer or not. Whereas before, this was kind of this dark hole. And I feel like that's what it is in so many places where we didn't know before. And only when you apply incredible computing power and all the data that we humans have generated over the last decade, two decades, that we can get to this place where we are going to fundamentally change people's lives. Look, there was a debate I went to at TED, which had one ethicist standing up and saying,

like, we're talking about the demise of humanity. We don't know how these algorithms work. We don't understand how they come to some of their conclusions. What if they decide that their main goal is to protect their own ability to continue to exist? And then you had a panel up there scoffing. But, you know, we have a hard time, I think, especially here in the United States, of thinking beyond quarterly and annual returns to thinking in eras. You know, like we've left the industrial. Well, some say we're in the fourth industrial age.

We're in the information age. We're headed maybe to the biotech age. You know, I think we have to start thinking in these bigger time frames and really trying to understand, like, those periods between this one and the next one are going to get shorter and, you know, basing it on returns is it's not working for us. And it's interesting that that combination between the ethicist and the other people, it sounds like kind of rolling their eyes. But at the same time, I heard a recent conversation with Sam Altman, founder of OpenAI, who's like the team that created ChatGBT, which everybody sort of knows as like the AI that everyone is thinking about these days. And journalists posed a question, which was, give me worst case, best case scenarios. And he was, I don't remember his exact language, like best case scenario, like a lot of stuff we've been talking about, stunning advances in medicine and society and culture and all these different things.

Worst case scenario, there's a non-zero chance of the demise of society. So like, here's the guy who actually created it saying, like, I can't entirely take that off the table. So what disappoints me is that he's saying this, right? And I don't know if people realize that it was just a year ago that OpenAI had dedicated itself to being a nonprofit and to being, you know, not choosing sides and not doing it just for the money. I mean, I understand, of course, I don't want to be naive. You can't continue to build extraordinary technology without investment, of course. But it showed up this year at the TED conference, you know, which is where I

sort of go to get my updates, very much for-profit company, like no doubt about it. And I was disappointed, Jonathan. I mean, it is interesting. In that same conversation, like to be fair also, he, I think one of the questions was, you know, like who should own this? And he was like government. And he's kind of like we tried to actually have those conversations, but it just wasn't happening. And there are a lot of people who actually say that the public forums and social media should actually not be privately owned also, especially given the state of some of them these days. But that said, I'm so hopeful, but I'm also really curious.

Okay, so here, I'm curious what your take is on this. What's your sense of what this emerging technology may do to and for the entire notion of creativity? Oh, I saw some of the most extraordinary fashion and interior design generated by AI at TED this year. Like, I swooned. It was beautiful. It was extraordinary. I tried to remember that it's all built on what humans have created first, right? It's not making it up out of nothing. It's based on what humans make. So that part was great. What I guess I worry, there's a line that we have to draw, right, between the fundamentals of like humans make things, the machines learn from the humans and then iterate on it. And like what I wouldn't want is a kid to be like, well, what's the point of me taking a drawing class if AI can do it better? To me,

that's always been the thing that we have to explain why it works and how it works so that we understand the humanities role in making it work. I mean, I've been thinking a lot. I don't know. I've always wanted to. I was an art major a million years ago or by accident. I ended up being a double major. And I've been thinking a lot about collage recently, but it's and I subscribe to this newsletter where they share, you know, work from amazing collage artists. But it's all based on old magazines or a lot of it is based on old paper materials, which to me, you know, and of course, these are incredible artists and they mix them in ways that feel super contemporary. But I'm like, well, so what is the new iteration of this? If I don't have

magazines lying around or I don't have things I can collect, how, you know, and so you look to see like, well, what are digital collage? You know, it's there's so many spaces for so many different things. And I just don't want kids or adults, frankly, to get their hands dirty and make things and enjoy the process of making art simply because, you know, you can be like, Dolly, make me a, you know, cat making an omelet in the style of Da Vinci or whatever. As much fun as I, you know, my daughter and I have had playing around with that stuff. It feels like you know it when it's not great and you know it when it is. I don't know if there's a clear cut answer here.

Is that a cop out? I don't know. I think we're all in that space of like we're in the liminal space. We're trying to figure it out. Yeah. My sense is I'm sort of like a longtime artist. Also, I was a painter as a kid and I'm returning to a lot of that now. And for me, a lot of my art, my expression has been in the digital world.

You know, like you and I both live in that domain for a lot of our lives. Whether it's audio, whether it's, you know, like text, whatever it may be. But I've been feeling this deep craving to get back to the physical act of creation. I remember this was a couple of years back, reading a book about this legendary luthier who lives in the hills of Western Virginia. He has a 10-year wait list for guitars. He made Eric Clapton wait for a guitar from him. And they're telling the story and they're kind of interviewing him and then some other really just incredibly accomplished guitar builders. And they asked one of them, what makes an instrument so desired that the best players in the world would literally wait a decade to get their hands on it? The person's response was, it's the heart of the builder. You can feel it in the instrument. I wonder about that same thing in all forms of artistic expression. I would love that to be true. And if that is in fact true, that is a meaningful differentiator between what a human being creates and offers to the world versus what is generated by entering a couple of text prompts.

Does that apply to NFTs, Jonathan? I've been deep into that world. I mean, it's been interesting to see what's happened in that world in the last couple of years also. One of the stars in that world, Micah Johnson, who created a character which was based on his young nephew who was like nine or 10 years old, came to ask him, can black boys be astronauts? And he's like, I need to actually create a story and a world to show him this is possible. And he's also ends up being a former professional baseball player who's, turns out he's a stunning artist. So he made this character, but first in the physical realm, and then he translated it into the digital world. And then they actually created animations around it and offered them as NFTs. So there's such a fluid dance happening here right now. Yeah. The thing that they have in common is the scarcity, right?

Yeah. We still want things that no one else has. We want to think that we're special in some way because we have an instrument that we can have a relationship with, or we have a piece of art that no one else owns, even if that kind of doesn't make any sense because they could just cut and paste it somewhere else. But we know that it's ours and it's worth a lot of money. So I guess we're all just looking to find that thing that makes us feel like we have figured something out or we've we've carved out a little piece of the planet for just ourselves in some way. It's interesting. And maybe that's an American thing. I don't know, actually. Yeah, I don't know either. I think it's going to rile the art world in a big way because the truth is that world operates in really interesting ways and it always has. I mean, side by side, what's the difference between a $5,000 work and a $50,000 or $5 million work? And often it's the story of the artist

that's being passed through a pedigree and a certain number of collectors who annoyed the artist. But side by side, somebody who knew nothing about that. It's such a good point. I think all of this is going to get blown up and maybe in a good way, maybe in a way that actually, again, I think we kind of keep coming back to like the notion of leveling the playing field. But to your point, I think the risk, the sadness is potentially like you have kids or adults saying, why would I even bother if this thing can do it faster and better and miss out on this just channel of like showing the heart to the world. I mean, I see that with so many things, right? Like taking up a musical instrument or, I mean, eventually learning a language. Why would you learn a language if you can just hold your phone out and it translates for you? And it makes me

think of a talk that I watched recently about this idea of like, cause it's pleasurable. That's the reason. And I, a friend of mine, I just read her newsletter. She's a writer, Georgia Clark, and she's a novelist. And she's very frank in her newsletter. She was like, listen, my last book did not do well. And I just can't live in a place where people are telling me me or I'm accepting that people are saying you're not successful for a thing that I love and I have managed to make my living doing. And so I am redefining success for myself and I've decided that success equals creation. I was like, I wrote her back immediately. I was like, whoa, this feels radical to me. I was like, so I like this. I like this idea that you've gotten to this place where like, if you made it, if you feel proud of it, if you feel that it is work that, you know, put you into a state of flow and you felt satisfied and that you'd created something new to you, that's success. Like, look, we all still have to pay the bills. But if that's how you're defining

creative success for yourself, that makes a lot of sense to me. It blew my mind. This all happened yesterday. So here's what that brings up. And I'm so curious what you think about this. Could AI potentially signal the death of perfectionism

and all the awfulness that comes with it? Because if we now have a standard, that's largely impossible for the typical mortal, especially the crafter, the hobbyist, the person who just does it because they love the way it makes them feel. You can never actually measure that. But up until now, that kind of has been in the back of our minds. It's like, that's what we want to do or that's what we should be capable of doing. If that gets blown up, does it free us all to just say, I'm going to just do this because it feels good when I do it?

Yes. I mean, that's huge, right? Like if that happened, I think we've almost already started to see that like on Instagram, you know, with all these auto ways to auto-tune your face and look like a perfect person that there's been this backlash where people are like, just woke up like this and I look like crap and this is reality. Like maybe, maybe that is, that would be, I think, quite wonderful and extraordinary. It reminds me also of, you know, Kevin Roos, the tech reporter, the New York Times, who says like, well, yes, the robots are coming for our jobs, but they can never take the jobs that are about the very simple human things that people do, which is comfort one another and that, you know, caretaking jobs and teaching jobs and where it is that ineffable connection that you

have, whether it's to another person or to creativity or to yourself. So far, it's not, some would argue it is replicable with your chatbot. I'm going to say for now, it's mostly not. And so if there's a reset back to appreciating the humanity that we share, then maybe there is a good side. I don't know. As you're sharing that, I'm remembering there's now a huge canon of books on happiness, but one of the really, really early offerings is Jonathan Haidt's The Happiness Hypothesis.

And the basic conclusion for that that he said was happiness lies in the in-betweens. It was in the discourse, the interaction, the energy exchange between beings. And if we assume for the moment that an AI is not a being to this day, and I think we all experienced this over the last three years in a pandemic, right? Like we all figured out how to use them. We all figured out how to like be back in relation and get the stuff done and be in conversation. And we also all knew that it just was not the same as being in the room with somebody. That was a little bit of a relief to me. Yeah. That people were like, yeah, it's good. Not the same.

Because I don't know that we would have gotten to there. You know, it's like it was the nudge in so many ways that we needed to make changes, many of us in our lives, and appreciate things that I think we've taken for granted. I mean, that's been what's so interesting to me is like, as I've done the work that I've done about technology and humanity, I, you know, I always like to check in with teachers and librarians. And what I hear from them is having to teach things that they didn't have to teach 20 years ago. Like, how do you have eye contact with someone? How do you read something and then not go on to the next thing that you are doing? Just sit there and think about something like what is body language? Like, OK, so just things that I think, you know, whatever, if you're of a certain age, you take for granted that that's what being human is. They are having to teach a lot of these things just as much as I need to be taught,

like how to frickin repost a reel or whatever on Instagram. So it's always been interesting to me how that's changed so quickly. It is the speed of all of it. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.

Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg.

You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. Okay, so AI and the future of journalism storytelling do you especially coming off of like you know we're having this conversation as you described you're pretty much just back from

from the big ted um and this is a you know journalism in particular that's a world that you have lived in for a lot of years and even before the advent of ai you've seen a huge amount of change yeah in that world do you have a a take on how it's going to affect that space? Look, as someone who's been both a reporter and an editor, the hardest part of being a reporter is the blank page, the sitting down to the nothingness and feeling like, create, you know, that's the tough part. And as an editor, the best part is taking somebody's crap as a reporter and shining in, turning it into something that sparkles and is a gem and really what they meant to say. They just need a little help.

And I feel like what I've seen so far is that you kind of, we're all going to be in that editor position much faster. I'll give you an example. You know, I've been playing around with chat GPT-4, just like everybody else, 5, 6, whatever it is. And I asked it to write an episode about loudmouths. I said, write an introduction for me in the style of the TED Radio Hour NPR on loudmouths. And at first, it spat something out. I mean, first of all, it was

like long. I was like, well, I guess the show's been around long enough that it has enough data to really think that it can, you know, generate. It even picked out different TED speakers that it suggested to put in the show. And at first I was like, oh, shit. But then as I like dug into it, it was so cliched and painful. It's like the level of like a junior in high school who's like not that keen on their English class. They're getting C's. You know, there's there was something so pat about it that it was like women need to learn to speak up. Often they're called loudmouths. I was like, yeah. So, you know, my job is to take things that you've heard already and like infuse them with new life and a new way of thinking about them and add new ideas to it so that you're like, whoa, I really

thought I knew this, but I don't. But it gave me a starting point. It gave me that like, oh, I don't want to talk about this. Oh, that's cheesy. All right. I better not say that. You know, it was like the butter sizzling in the pan. It was like something to start the cooking process. I wasn't just sitting there with like a cold stove. Yeah. That makes so much sense. I've heard a lot of people doing that. I've played with it in really similar ways also. Did you find it helpful or scary or like what, what did you think? It was a little freaked out when I asked it to create a, um, a detailed writing style guide, um, for Jonathan Fields without giving it any more information. And it was ridiculously accurate. Fascinating. I mean, it shouldn't be surprising at all. I, you know, like I have a lot of public

writing and whatever it is out there in the world. But it's interesting because I can say, act like Jonathan Fields and help me with some ideas for this, this, and this. And it would populate a whole bunch of things where I'm like, huh, completely not fully formed. But just like you said, okay, now I actually have a starting point that I didn't have before. And it's so much easier to riff on that or to flesh it out and say, look, what about this? What about this? What about this? I think for so many creative people, especially writers who like have that blank page is just terrifying to think about it as like, oh, this is, it's almost like a personal assistant. Yes, exactly. You know, who can kind of like help with the research or help, you know, although you really have to check Yes, exactly. at it doing anyway and freed us to do the part of it that we would love to spend more time doing it, the super creative, innovative, interpersonal, relational parts of it that we are so much better

at. And also that I would imagine most people would prefer to spend more time doing. That's what worries me is that most people don't. Because that, I think, is the hard part. Yeah, I agree with that, actually. Right? I talk to a lot of people who are like who don't know how to sit their ass down and grapple with an idea for an hour and maybe only have two sentences to show for it but those two like sentences might be like the thing i worry that we there is a portion of the population who will be set free in some ways by this stuff and then there's just gonna to be so much shit

out there. And that's what makes me bummed out. I mean, I also think the other, we're going to a point right now where we have to like, make sure we teach our kids and ourselves how to identify things that aren't real or misinformation. And I think that that's going to flip. I think it's going to be, how do you find the things that are true or fact? And that just bums me out. Not to turn it on its head, Jonathan, we were going down a very optimistic path here. But it is interesting, right? Because if maybe because I'm the person, it sounds like you're the person who actually like the notion of being able to actually live in the ideas and tease all nuance. And like like i'm comfortable struggling with the creative process like give it to me i'm all in like

yeah take all the grunt work and the process and like the organization you know great but you're right like that's the way that we happen to be wired not everybody's wired that way and it's not good or bad it's just like we are like we have different impulses for effort that gives us that feeling we earn for so you you're right. It probably will end very differently with different people, depending just on what motivates you to dive in. Another knock on effect. I don't know if you've seen this, but I've been reading about how other cottage economies or global cottage economies are being affected by this. Like, for example, in Kenya, the cottage economy of writing college essays for American students, like, and they're being gutted. But then that you're like, wow, so people who don't speak English as their first language, I would rather that we support a portion of the population of humans. I'm sad that technology is no longer allowing us to outsource at least that form of

cheating. But it's funny to think of all the little pockets that there are out there that are going to change in some way. Okay. So which brings us to if enough people are freed of a part of what they were doing now, or sometimes jettisoned from all of what they were doing before this moment in history. And a lot of that work ends up being assumed by the machine. In theory, that frees us as human beings to be more intentional about what we show up to and what we say yes to. But you almost get to a potential scenario where what's left for us and the existential crisis of saying like, okay, so when I had a job or a role or like a set of responsibilities to show up to, it may not have been resonant with me, but I knew what I was here

to do. I had something to show up for and I knew what the expectations were. I knew what I was here to do. I had something to show up for. And I knew what the expectations were. I knew what I was being compensated for. There was a certain trajectory. We as human beings are brutally bad at living in a space of the unknown and with high stakes uncertainty. And the stakes of what am I going to do with my life are very high stakes. The existential questioning that I think may unfold over the next couple of years, as we could become free to have that questioning that many people don't know how to process and don't want to have. I wonder what that's going to do to sort of like just the human psyche as we get dropped into this zone of profound existential questioning without obvious

paths or pathways out of it. You're making me, well, I've heard many things, but I'm thinking about how there's this new trend in startups to foster human collaboration and connection. And that actually we'll begin to find, as we do, we'll begin to find ways of monetizing and facilitating leisure and giving them that, giving it value in new ways. I don't know where I'm going with this, but I've seen a bunch of startups that are about connecting people in real life and we have to give form to it, right? Like we can like be like, I had four live interactions this week and maybe that's how we start to give ourselves structure and value.

And I don't know, look where the negative space is, the things you don't see now, because those are going to be the ones that entrepreneurs or intellectuals or artists find and turn into things. And you're like, oh, I didn't even see that before. For better and worse. I don't know. I mean, I used to think that that meant like, oh, everybody's going to have time to do watercolor, which is what I would do with my free time. But I think the caretaking thing is real. We have an aging population and there's only so much robotic seals and AI companions can do. I think the field of medicine is going to be exploding in new sorts of ways. God, do we need like new sources of

energy? I struggle with this because there's been this trend of, you know, rest, you know, putting more value on rest and this idea that we are driven to productivity by a capitalist economy and we don't have to be slaves to the man and late capitalism and let it die and all those things. But if we didn't call it work, what if we called it making, you know, like what if we called it, call it what you want to call it. But I think that for me, it's what lights me up. It sparks me. It makes me feel fulfilled. And I don't think, you know, lounging around is good for our bodies or our minds necessarily. plain as day, as much as we all say, yes, there are probably big issues with productivity as a dominant metric for success in life and hustle culture and all this stuff, that is the pendulum swinging way too far in one direction. But as he offered in a lot of his work, here's what the

science actually says about when we flourish as human beings, we are wired to strive. The least happy times, they strapped little things on like thousands of people and checked in all day long and said, how happy or unhappy are you? And the least happy times of the day, what people thought they would be most happy when they're just hanging out watching TV, kind of like mindlessly using their time, they were most alive, happiest and flourishing when they were actually working towards something, investing effort in a meaningful way towards something that mattered to them. And, you know, so we like, it doesn't matter.

Like when we get to actually choose how we invest effort, again, call it work, call it whatever it is. We like that. Like human beings, actually, we flourish when we get to do that. Always looking for meaning, aren't we? I know. Always. Curse you human beings, I quest for meaning.

I know. It is such an interesting moment though. And maybe sort of like circling back to earlier in our conversation, you know, where you're sharing how teachers are telling you that, you know, like they literally are having to teach kids how to have eye contact and how to be physical and read physical body language. Maybe it frees us to return to all of that just organically because this is the domain that we're left to live in more and more.

That's a good thing. You're reminding me of a conversation I had with Andrew Solomon, the psychologist who writes a lot of Noonday Demon was his book about his own depression. And he's working right now on a book about depression and anxiety and suicide for teens. And have you ever seen an example of, you know, one of these kids where, you know, you don't know, is it social media? Is it life online? You know, he thinks it does have a lot

with that spending too much time online. I don't nobody knows for sure. But I was like, have you ever seen them come through to the other side? Like, what does that look like? And he was like, oh, yeah, I'm thinking of this one kid who said, I haven't been able to find meaning in it all. I'm paraphrasing here, but I have found meaning in just looking for meaning. And I've decided to call myself an optimistic nihilist. And I was like, oh, I like that. That's

good, actually. Yeah. Like, no, it doesn't mean anything, but isn't it wonderful anyway? You know what I mean? Like, and I think that's where the philosophy or being able to talk about all of this stuff and not just being in the moment, but thinking really big, just bringing back to where we started, you know, this idea of like big ideas. It can be really helpful to think about the world beyond you and who you know and what you're doing and all of those things. And just put yourself in context because when you feel small and you don't matter, you actually, that can be incredibly freeing as well. And I just love that.

I love that. So I've decided to co-opt that turn. I'm an optimistic nihilist. That's an amazing turn. And what you just said, I just had a conversation with Dr. Keltner about awe. And it's what you're describing here, right? It's because most of

us think that if we're confronted with actually how small we are in the context of the vastness of the world around us in the universe, we would feel so insignificant. We'd feel horrible. But in fact, it's the exact opposite. It lets us reframe, oh, actually something terrible happens, this too shall pass. Something amazing happens, this too shall pass. And there's a whole universe around me. And also that it doesn't all have to be about me, which is, I mean, so much of our own human suffering is based on the assumption that it is about me. And when you start to realize, maybe it's not, then so much of the neurosis starts to fall away. And you're like, oh, I can just show it for other people. And that actually feels really good. I have this argument with my husband

all the time where I'll be like, dude, it's not about you. And he thinks I'm doing it like in a mean way. He's like, that really hurts my feelings when you say that. I'm like, no, I'm just saying like, who cares? You know, it's not about you. Like whatever your family member who's having a crisis and calls you and makes you feel bad or whatever, it's really not about you. And that way you can just like be with whatever's happening without thinking like, what did I do to cause this?

How can I fix this? It's a lot of things just, they just are. And so if I can help myself and my kids be a little more OK with that, I mean, that feels like a huge coping mechanism. Yeah, big time. display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, Charge time and actual results will vary.

Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die.

Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. It kind of winds this in an interesting way to some of the work that you've been doing over the last few years, not just with TED Radio, but also with your own production company with ZigZag. Yeah. You know, your own show where you've been really diving into the domain of work a lot more. Yeah. How people show up.

I mean, first kind of tracking the trajectory of you starting out your own thing, an interesting journey in the world of crypto in the early days and how that sort of like wove into what you're doing. And then broadening out really just like profiling interesting people, just exploring this notion of the nonlinear work experience. I mean, I don't know if I'm even phrasing that right. I'm actually curious, like how would you tee it up? What you've been thinking about in there? You know, it all, for me, it started, I mean, Me Too. I didn't have a specific Me Too instance, but there was one at the radio station where I was working. And it just made me so mad. I was so mad. I find that being angry is like the most, the best creative impulse a lot of the time. I was so mad that I wanted to

do my own thing. I felt like I'd been reporting on technology and business for so long. I was a little disgusted with myself. Like, how can you really report on something that you've never actually tried to do? How can you be critical of the way the systems are set up if you've never even done it? So I was like, my producer and I sort of challenged ourselves, like, can we start a company? Can we try some of the more experimental things out there? Because I love an experiment and see, are we going to fix capitalism and misogyny and all those things? No. But in our own little small way, what can we learn about how the world works? And I think for me, it was about becoming a better journalist. Like if I have skin in the game, what can we learn about how the world works? And I think for me, it was about becoming a better

journalist. Like if I have skin in the game, what does that change for me? So we joined a cryptocurrency. Well, it was more like a blockchain experiment that was trying to create a new marketplace for journalism where you took out the advertising incentives, which, you know, drives a lot of the clicks out there and to see if there was a way to fund good journalism, factual journalism. And I had to learn about all these new ideas, not just how blockchain works, but how do you create a marketplace that's not based on the dollar? And I found new pockets of gray matter that I didn't know I needed to try and understand all that. And then how do you explain it to people who aren't crypto heads? Like, how do I make a normal person want to understand the blockchain, which

previously made people's eyes just glaze over and turn away? So we did all kinds of weird things. We wrote songs about cryptocurrencies. We used a lot of crazy metaphors. In the end, coming back to the episode that you mentioned, when we first started talking, the experiment failed. And when COVID happened, my business partner was like, I can't deal with this. I need to go get a normal job. And she did. But wow, did I learn a lot. And did I feel like I have so much respect for people who are trying to do things differently, even if it's just a little bit, it takes a lot to change a daily habit, to change a structure of an organization, to rethink a paradigm. And I just really admire that kind of creative thinking. You know, one of our episodes is about the guy who

wrote The Lean Startup. Yeah, Eric Reese. Eric Reese. Yeah. Who you think like, wow, you are the person who created startup culture, 10x returns, all of those things. But his latest project is creating the long term stock exchange, which is this idea that we reward companies who don't try to maximize profits in the short term, but consider their employees and their customers well-being in the longer term, the planet's well-being in the longer term. That to me is like, and he did it. Like he spent years researching, how do you start a stock exchange?

And he said to me, he was like, this is probably not going to work, just so you know. And I'm like, yeah, but whatever it's, this is how you start it. It has to be, there has to be one freaking weirdo. Who's like, let's try, you know? And I, I just really admire people like that. It takes a lot of optimism again, and energy takes a lot of energy to try things like that. Yeah. I mean, a huge amount. And like you became that weirdo, you know, you, you're like, you're Yeah. I mean, a huge amount. And you became that weirdo. You're like, I'm in. I tried. Let me do this thing. It's interesting. I remember years ago seeing this study that interviewed a whole bunch of founders. And this was years into the journey where they were already quote successful by whatever metrics they were measuring. And they asked them, had you known

before you said yes to this, how hard it would be, would you have done it? The vast majority said no. And it is a brutally hard experience. I mean, this has been my path, you know, similar to you in a lot of ways, but this has been my entire adult life, starting different companies and building different things. And it never gets easier, is the other thing. It's like, if you really care, the stakes are always high. Do you have a very short memory is what I always wonder. It's like, you know, asking a person who's given birth, are you going to have another one? Hell no. Until like six months later, you're like, well. Right. It's probably a combination of all of that. Right. The best laid plans start with the sentence. How hard can it be?

Right, right, right. But I'd rather be that. 100%. And so many things that we love about life would not exist had somebody analytically said, what will it really take? And then made a measured decision to decide, am I down for that or not? A lot of people would have said no. And apparently that's what the data shows us too. But it was interesting because you're out there, you leave the traditional ad-based world of journalism. And it wasn't even ad-based for you because you were coming out of public media, public radio, but it's still like, it's got to be supported in some way. And it's sort of like this interesting hybrid type of model.

And let me tell you with podcasting, it's become much more so. Yeah. So I'm curious what your take is, right? Because we have, so as you described, you hit 2019 and then 2020, the pandemic happens. Jen has to go her own way because she's got to take care of herself. And you had this really hard, hard decision, which you shared a very public and open and vulnerable way on your podcast. I can't imagine how hard it was to actually record that conversation and then hit publish on it. And then you continue on also. So you make a decision to say, we're in the middle of a global pandemic. Yes, I've just picked up

this other gig. I'm now hosting Ted Radio Hour, which is this big juggernaut out there, which is amazing. But this still means something to me. And even though the entire context has changed, I still wanted to be here. I'm curious about that moment for you and that decision. Oh, you have put your finger on my personal struggle, which is I have a little bit of a problem with authority. And I also, when I have an idea, they don't come along regularly, but when they do, I know what I want to do and I know how I want to do it. And God help you if you get in my freaking way is the problem. And I just realized, like, it's really important for me to have my thing, my thing.

And it might be small and it might not make any money, but it comes back to that, you know, defining success as creation. I need that to keep things flowing. I don't want to automate myself. And in order to keep myself hungry, I need a little piece of garden plot to try and hybridize a weird kind of pear apricot. I don't know where I'm going with this metaphor, but you know what I'm saying. And that gets harder and harder the more responsibilities you have, you know, whether it's to an organization like public radio, to a team who you love and who work really hard, to your kids, to your partner, to your physical health. You know, there's just it often feels like there's not enough hours in the day. And then the first thing to go is that little extra thing that feels like a luxury.

But what I've realized for me is that little thing is what powers all the rest of it. It's not happiness. I try not to use that word. It's the weird joy that makes me kind of smiling like a little bit, tootiously to myself all day, because I've like a little bit to myself all day because I've got a little bit of a secret thing I'm thinking about. I need it. You know, I know one day like my kids will leave home and I'll probably be like, I have too much time for my thing. But like right now, it feels like something I need to protect. And it keeps changing like zigzag. It's been hard to keep that going by myself. I love being a solo person, but it's just really hard. Like podcasting is a team sport, as I'm sure you know,

even if you don't hear them, they're there, all the people who have to help. And I, there was a season that I did like by myself with one audio engineer who also happened to be a composer. And the two of us, we had like a total creative mind meld and it was awesome. But boy, was I spent after that. So it's the good creative fight that I'm trying to keep up. I can't tell you how much it means to me that you asked that and you brought up that project, the ZigZag project. And I think it's the best work I've ever done and probably the least people have heard it, but I know that I made something and I felt really good about, and that's what I live for. Yeah. And it is amazing work. And it's really interesting also to see

what the show was before this moment in the beginning of 2020. And then once you went through the transition and it's like, okay, so now I'm choosing, not that you weren't part of that process before, but it's different now, you know, and like each season is different. Your most current season, which is sort of like, okay, so this is almost like, here's the methodology. Yes. you, but I'm offering invitations about what to really think about when you're thinking about this thing called work and like, how are you going to navigate it in a way that actually like feels okay in this particular moment in time, which is hard for a lot of people. Yeah. It's hard to advertise and pack that up and sell sponsorship when I'm like, huh, this season, I think I'm going to do this. And the people who, you know, they're like, you can't just be changing it on the fly. And I'm like, yeah, but it's mine. So I can't, but I just won't make any money on it.

And that speaks to like another thing, which is to me, zigzag feels like, I don't mean this in any way as in a minimizing way. It feels like your art. It feels like you've got this thing over here, which takes care of you, which like pays the bills and like, you know, it's fun. It's cool. It's good. Totally. Great job. And then there's a, there's another thing like over here too, which fills a different need. That's exactly right.

Do you have that? Yeah. To me, it's not different shows. It's sort of like different pursuits. Yeah. But, but it's, it's interesting to me also because sometimes there's this expectation that you should be able to get everything that you need out of one thing. And some people can.

Like you see those people and you're like, wow, that's amazing. But a lot of people like need to sort of patch together a couple things. And that's okay too. But that's not always centered as like, yeah, that's a completely viable way to do this thing called work and life. That's really interesting. I mean, I think we feel that way about marriage, that there's this one person who's going to be everything for us. And when they're not, that's a disappointment. Or same thing with a job.

Like, this is the job that's going to pay me and fulfill me. And when it's not, you're disappointed. I think that was a hard lesson for me to learn that like, no, it's okay. Like you can have a person or a job that provides wonderful things. Like nobody, nothing can be all of it packaged up. It's just not possible, but no one's going to take care of you either. Like you are the person who has to find, you know, whether that's making sure you read nonfiction or jogging or doing pencil drawings, whatever your, your jam is like, and maybe it pays and maybe it doesn't. And like, luckily we live in an economy where like some people can get paid for the thing that, you know,

scratches their already itch. Yeah. I need it all. Yeah. And I think, you know, in the podcast world, you know,, there's always the possibility of this actually generating some money to help support me. But also I wonder whether so many folks don't pursue this thing, which is like calling to them on the side because they apply the filter first that says, will it ever make me a dollar? And if it's not, it's not a valid use of my time. Even if that thing done three hours a week would give you three hours of just pure joy. So we sort of like, we just set it aside. And that I think is kind of tragic.

It is tragic. But I also think, not to be crass, that often that three-hour thing that doesn't look like it makes you money. I have found that it fuels all the other things, the little, the little project, right? Like it gives me really new ideas at my jobs that do pay, or it gives me energy to accept that sometimes work just feels like work and that's okay. As long as it's not 100% of the time that it feels like a grind, then like, deal. Like, you know, that's just, that's life. I mean, I think for a lot of people, they're discovering, you know, the podcast economy has blown up over the last few years, but a lot of people are pulling back, companies in particular, because

they're like, we can't make any money on this. And it's like, well, yeah, it's part of your portfolio, right? It's like just one thing that you do that, you know, on its own, it's not a moneymaker, but the sum is greater than the parts in some ways. That's a whole nother conversation. Yeah. But just the notion of allowing space for you to play, you know, like that, it really, really matters. Even if you can't measure what it's giving you, it's giving you something. And that like, especially in this day and age, when there are plenty of reasons to be stressed, plenty of reasons to be anxious, like knowing that you just have a place where you can check out and play and feel like you were a kid for a hot minute.

That's an amazing thing. Don't you feel like younger people get this way more? I share the office with a couple of people. A hundred percent. Right? I came out the other day to get some coffee and this young woman who's like right out there, she'd made this, I was like, what is that? She's this beautiful like pillow. She's like, oh, I taught myself to crochet over the weekend. And so I'm just finishing up this pillow. I was like, it's beautiful. I was like, when are we opening up the Etsy shop? You know? And she was like, which was so Gen X of me to say to like, how do we turn this into a business girl? You know? And she was like, no, you know, I did this for me. I really enjoyed it. I like pick these colors and just real appreciation for it. Like, she's like, I'm going to learn how to do this now, like add a couple of kids into the mix. And I don't know

if she's going to exactly have time to do all that, but I thought it was really cool. I was like, you know how to live. It's a different ethos and it's definitely, I'm learning a whole lot, like my daughter's generation. Right. And it kind of brings you back to the, like to check your assumptions. You know, you're like, huh, okay, maybe they've actually got something figured out that you knew when you were 12 and walked away from because the culture then was, that's not the way that you live a life or like build a career. But there's a pendulum swing that's happened in a really big way. And maybe that's the better way. Like just because this is what we've known

for our entire lives doesn't mean it's the best way or it doesn't mean it has to be the future way. And I think so many people are checking into that just mode of exploration right now and sort of saying, what if, which is a good thing at the end of the day, I think at least. It is a good thing. Absolutely. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So in this container of good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To live a good life means what I think I'm doing. I really feel like I've found it. Life is absurd. It's okay to laugh at it. If you can, then everything ends up being fun, even the grunt work. I feel like I'm in such a wonderful place now where I'm enjoying taking out the compost and picking up my dog's poop because she looks so grateful when I do. And just tasting my coffee that's so damn good every morning.

And I'm in a very joyful place right now. And I think part of it is like getting older and feeling like I being proud of myself that I got older. Like that's the goal, right? Is to be an old woman and also accepting that when I'm dissatisfied, like I'm a big girl, I can do something about it too. Like not looking to other people to fill my needs, but you know, relying on myself and knowing that I've got my own back. I think that's good too. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, say that you will also love the conversation we had with Kevin Kelly about excellent advice for living. You'll find a link to Kevin's episode in the show notes.

And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable, and chances are you did since you're still listening here, would you do me a personal favor, a seven second favor and share it maybe on social or by text or by email, even just with one person, just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those, you know, those you love, those you want to help

navigate this thing called life a little better. So we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen. Then even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming,

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