Good Life Project - Fiercely Honest, Unapologetically Joyful | Ashley C. Ford

Episode Date: June 20, 2019

Ashley C. Ford (http://www.ashleycford.net/) is a writer, media producer and host, living in Brooklyn by way of Indiana. She currently hosts PROFILE by BuzzFeed News, and is the former host of Brooklyn-based news & culture TV show, 112BK. Ford has written for The Guardian, ELLE, BuzzFeed, OUT Magazine, Slate, Teen Vogue, New York Magazine, Lenny Letter, INTO and she's working on her memoir, along with a collection of interviews (B-Side Chats) with her husband, Kelly Stacy. She has been named among Forbes Magazine's 30 Under 30 in Media (2017), Brooklyn Magazine's Brooklyn 100 (2016), and Time Out New York's New Yorkers of The Year (2017). And, like all humans, her journey has been anything but linear. In today's conversation, we explore the powerful and, at times, painful awakenings that led her to this joyfully real, confident, compassionate and supported season of work, love and life.-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In her early 30s, my guest this week, Ashley C. Ford, has done something that most writers dream of doing but never do. She's reached a point in her career where she is now turning away work, where she is being approached to write, to host, to speak on all sorts of things, where she feels such a fierce sense of conviction and passion for that her decision now has been, what is the thing that most lights me up? And then she says no to everything else. That was not always the case. Ashley grew up in Indiana, ended up going to Ball State and had to struggle with a lot of personal moments of reckoning, early experiences with

the family that really sent her into a spiral and had her questioning her identity, her skills, her abilities, who she was. And it took some time, some changes in community, a bit of therapy, and finding the love of her life to really start to reconnect the dots and step back into a place of confidence and competence. And she has done that in an astonishing way. Now out there in the world as a writer, a speaker, a media host, and working on a memoir, she is making a huge difference in people's lives as she shares beautifully her own story and invites others in to explore theirs as well. Super excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good

Life Project. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.

Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg.

You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk. As we're sitting here, you're just back from South by Southwest, right? I am. Oh, that's awesome.

Were you there primarily with BuzzFeed during the profile show or was it other stuff too? Yeah. During this, it was primarily with BuzzFeed doing profile. Yeah. primarily with BuzzFeed, doing Profile. That was the primary focus of the trip. And I'm glad because, you know, I got to go during a really interesting time, which is, you know, when they're doing a lot of work around film

and there are a lot of film premieres. And, you know, film is something that I've only in the past couple of years allowed myself to love as much as I do. What's up with that? Why just the last couple of years? I think for a really long time, I didn't have a whole lot of respect for my own tastes when it came to art that I thought I couldn't make or that I couldn't do, or it felt so separate from my world that it almost made me feel insecure to even imagine that I might be able to do it. And so it was just easier to say to myself, I won't ever make a movie because I don't know what a good movie is,

or I won't ever write a movie because I don't know what a good movie is. Or I won't ever write a movie because I don't know how to write a good movie. I only know how to write a silly movie or a funny movie or, you know, something like that. Like, I didn't have a high regard for my taste because I think for a really long time, I thought that the world of taste was the world of old white men in tuxedos. Yeah, I mean, in film, and especially in the world of film, that's not entirely wrong. Yeah. Right? Right.

I mean, it seems like we're seeing some nice changes, literally, this year. Oh, yeah. Which is part of the reason why it was so nice to go this year as well was to be able to talk to some, you know, directors and actors and, you know, even politicians who were doing things that I really admired or having conversations in ways that I admired, new ways. Yeah. Because you sat down, when you were there, you sat down with Jordan Peele and the cast of Us, right? I did, yes. What was that like for you?

Nerve-wracking and exhilarating. You know, I already had this great affection and appreciation, not just affection, for Jordan Peele's work. So to have the opportunity to see his sophomore film as, you know, director, writer, yeah, all of that, to see that sophomore film, like as it premieres with a group of people who are also excited and who love film as well, to be blown away by that film and then know, oh, by, you know, in like 12 hours, actually, I get to sit down with this person and talk with them about what was going through their head when

they made this or the process around making it. And that feels like such a gift, but also such a responsibility, right? Like I'm getting these questions. I'm one of the first, you know, interviewers who get to talk to him, who get to talk to Lupita and Winston after people have actually seen the film. What a wonderful thing to get to do. Also, you better do it right. Yeah. I mean, I'm curious too in that scenario, because this is something that spins in my head oftentimes

when we both host conversations. Do you feel, especially in something where it's like that high profile, like you have your own curiosity, but to a certain extent, you also represent the curiosity of everybody who then might see this either during or after. Do you bounce in your head sort of like the responsibility to honor your own curiosity along with, okay, so what is the role of me being the voice or the inquisitor of society at large? Well, you know, one of the things that I like to remember a lot is my general insignificance, right? Like, I'm one of 7 billion people.

There's no way in the world that there's some question so unique or so specific that I'm the only person in the world who cares about it. That's just not true. If I have a question, somebody else out there has that question. I think what my job is as an interviewer is to sort of provide an experience for the audience member, no matter what, where every audience member at every level of knowledge about this person walks away feeling like they know at least one thing about that person that they didn't know before. Like, that's my goal. So the questions are a range from like, how did you get started, which somebody, you know, generally gets asked all the time.

But there are some people tuning in who maybe don't know who this is, you know, like that just happens. And if that happens, it's like, I want them to know, you know, that this is how this person got started. But by the end of that conversation, there should be at least one question that even if I read this person's, you know, biography that isn't released yet, you know, even if I've read every interview they've ever done, I didn't know that, or I had never heard them ask the question like that, or I had never heard them give that answer like that. And if I can do that, then I feel like I'm not wasting anybody's time. Yeah, I hear you. So let's dive into your, where you came from and stuff like that.

And then I'm going to kind of circle back and explore some of the more modern stuff. Okay. And I think we kind of need to start out actually with Kenny Loggins. We can. We can go there. Because like everywhere I look, including the banner across the top of your Twitter page, you know, clearly he was a big part of your life when you were a kid and apparently still is. Yeah. No, absolutely still is.

What's up with that? This is so interesting, but I write about this in my book and I've written about it in an essay before. But I had a really hard time sleeping as a kid. I was scared of the dark. I did not realize at the time, and I don't think anybody else realized, that what I had was probably symptomatic of some childhood anxiety. But nobody would have, in my life, would have known that that's what was happening. It was like I was just a weird kid who couldn't get over my fear of the dark. When actually it was like I wasn't really sleeping. I was staying up really late, like really, really late,

forcing my body to only sleep when it was exhausted. And then also only sleeping, you know, in ways that felt like I could protect my critical areas in weird ways. So I would sleep almost curled into like a complete ball, like an armadillo or something and like completely locked up into myself. And, you know, anybody who has had a good night's sleep can tell you that that's probably not the best way to sleep. And when you wake up, you're not going to feel particularly rested, you know, and as a kid, not be particularly ready for a school day or anything.

And I had a teacher who really, really paid close attention, I think, to me in a way that was both appropriate, but also really prescient. Like he saw that I was struggling and was one of the few teachers who didn't think, well, you know, that's what happens. You know, it was more of like, okay, well then what's happening with you and what's going on? And why are you falling asleep in my class? And I told him, I was just like, I don't really sleep. And he was like, what do you mean you don't sleep?

And I was like, well, I get really scared at night, you know, and I can't sleep. So I just don't. And he, you know, was like, oh, my God. Like, and I thought that that was just it. Like, that would be the end of that conversation. Either he didn't believe me or he was like, well, what do you do about that? And then that was it. But he went home and got a cassette.

And it was his daughter's cassette. He had a very, very young daughter who had had trouble sleeping as a kid. And they played her this album of Kimmy Loggins' lullabies called Return to Pooh Corner. And he asked me if I had a way to listen to music at night. And I said I did. And by the way, by this time, I was not like a super little kid.

I was like 12, like 11 or 12 years old. I was not like eight. I was on the precipice of adolescence and had like this nighttime problem. And he gave me this, he gave me this tape and I had a tape player in my room. And so I was able to play this tape at night and just listening to it. And like the very, I don't know if you've ever heard Kenny Loggins sing, but like the very soothing melodies of Kenny Loggins' voice. It just slowly, like the different lyrics, you know, are very much about being loved and feeling safe and, you know, sleeping soundly. And there was just like this sort of safety in the music that I had never felt at night.

And the music helped me start to feel that. And particularly the voice of Kenny Loggins. So, you know, at that point I'm obsessed. Like I hadn't been able to really sleep since I had been like five or six years old. And I was like, huh he also has this cd called yesterday today and tomorrow like his greatest hits and we would listen to it after school i asked my mom for it for christmas she got it for me um she was super weirded out that i wanted a kenny loggins greatest hit cd where does this come from you know but i wanted it and she got it. And it just, I mean, it just grew from there. Like, and it's just like, I found that I love the sound of that music. I actually love yacht rock, love soft rock. Like, you know, getting more and more into like Kenny's collaborators and stuff like that and more into that genre, it just, I found the music incredibly soothing and it actually just really, truly, deeply helped with my anxiety. And even to this day, you know, I'll have trouble

sleeping and my husband will put on like Return to Pooh Corner. It's like an anchor. It's an anchor. It's absolutely an anchor. It helps me. Did you, I mean, I know that you're a big advocate of therapy and you have embraced it. Did you ever figure out what it was during that early time that was sort of like creating the anxiety that was keeping you up so much for so many years? You know, there are a lot of things at that point in my life. Five and six were interesting because my mom had some mental health issues right after she gave birth to my brother who was born stillborn. And I left with my grandmother to live with her in Missouri for a year. And my brother stayed with my mom. And my brother and I are only 14 months apart in age. So we were very suddenly taken apart from each other.

And we had always also like slept in the same like bed. Like it was like, we were separated from each other. And then I came back. And when I came back, I had a sister. And also just like a whole new life, a whole new, like my mom was in an apartment, like me and my brother had separate rooms now. And I also had not been particularly shielded from scary things. Like even though I was like six and seven,

I was allowed to watch movies like Candyman and, you know, Fire in the Sky, I saw in the theaters, you know, like, so I was already like, I had an old, like an imagination that was pretty big. And then on top of that, like I was shown some pretty scary things. And then I had this big disruption in my life where I was living in a whole other state for a year. And then I came back and had to reacclimate and trying to reacclimate was hard. Me and my mom almost immediately did not get along. My brother and I, you know, were very close, but in a very like close and clingy way, like just us, just each other.

And then I started also getting bullied in school for the first time. And all of those things were happening and I didn't really have anywhere to go with my feelings. You know, I didn't really grow up in a house where I had a parent who would say, how was your day? How are things going at school?

You know, I love my mother, and my mother loves me. She's just not that kind of mom. She had to go to work, you know? She was a single parent of four kids when I graduated from high school. So my mom just didn't have time for that. And so I didn't know where to go with that. And I didn't even think it was really appropriate to go anywhere with my feelings or to talk with other people about my feelings for a long time. And when you do that, especially at the onset of adolescence, you know. It comes out some way.

It comes out some way. There's only so much Dawson's Creek one can watch. Yeah. Yeah. And because at the same time also, so your dad from pretty much the time you were born was in prison. So it sounds like he was writing to you a lot.

He was. So there was a level of relationship. And it sounds like he was writing really beautiful things that were supporting you. But at the same time, he wasn't physically present in your life. No, he wasn't. I mean, the only person, unfortunately, who I had telling me how important I was and how much they loved me was an older boyfriend who eventually would, you know, sort of emotionally terrorize me and physically assault me.

Like, that was the only person at the time telling me that they loved me who was in my life. Other than that, all I had were letters from my dad. And it was starting to get really tough to hold on to the idea of my dad as this savior type figure who was eventually going to come rescue me from all this, which is what I thought for a long time, is that one day he was going to get out. And when he got out, everything would be different. Like everything bad would be good when he was home. That's what I thought for a really, really long time. And then when I was starting to, again, get into like that early adolescence, it started not only to occur to me that I didn't know when my dad was going to get out of prison, or if he was ever going to get out of prison. It also started to occur to me that like, by the, no matter what, when my dad got out of prison, I would not be a child anymore.

Like, I was never going to be his little girl the way he wrote about me in those letters. And I started to get really self-conscious about growing up and about the changing of my body and how men were reacting to my body. Because I thought that my changing body meant that when my dad did come home, either he wouldn't recognize me or there wouldn't be a way for him to love me the way I looked. Because you were no longer sort of like that little girl in the image, the physical image of that little girl, too. Yeah. I mean, as a little girl, you know, one of the things, you know, I always had this picture in my head of like my dad, of like coming home one day and that my dad would just be like sitting in a chair on the couch or something in my living room and that I would just crawl into his lap and he would just hold me and that that would be our reunion, that I would just crawl into his lap and he would hold me. And I got to a certain age where I realized that was never going to happen because it was never again going to be appropriate for me to climb into my dad's lap.

Like that wasn't going to be appropriate. And I could tell because of how both men, older men and women treated me. And how they were constantly correcting me to change the way I interacted with people because of the fact of my body. How did you respond to that? I mean, as you're trying to navigate all these feelings about your dad, about your mom, about sort of life up to that date, and then everything's changing. And then you see men of all different ages responding very differently to you. And it's interesting that the word that sort of came out a couple times is appropriate or appropriateness. Is that some of the talk that was in your head or even being said to you? whose body developed technically early. I have something called polycystic ovary syndrome.

And polycystic ovary syndrome, you know, a lot of the symptoms of it are early developing. So I started my menstrual cycle between third and fourth grade. And I was starting to have breasts in the third grade. And the way teachers reacted to that, the way my mother reacted to that, basically made me feel like I was turning into a monster. It was like, everything has to change now. You have to change now. Get out of that tree. Quit running around. You can't wear white shirts. That's not the right shirt that you're wearing. You need to wear different shirts now.

If you can't afford new shirts, you have to go to the office during the day. And we'll put a shirt on you before you go to class. Or how long are your arms? Are they too far past your shorts? I mean, and that starts in about fourth grade, and it goes until I'm done with school, right? Like that teachers told me my body was was inappropriate, like the fact of my body was inappropriate. It didn't matter what I wore. It didn't matter how I looked. It was the shape of me was inappropriate. was cause men to act in ways that they wouldn't normally act and that it was my job to keep that to a minimum. So it's like there's shame and blame. Oh, yeah.

Being baked into a sense of identity at a moment in your life when you're really trying to figure out who am I, what's my value, and instead you're getting messages that say, hide. You know, like there's something that's happening to you physiologically that in some way, shape, or form you're responsible for. And it's potentially going, it's causing harm. So hide. And it's your fault. Yes.

That's brutal. Yeah, I mean, it was pretty brutal. You know, and it was even more brutal to, you know, very quickly, you know, I have these tapes and I mean, and this is something that I guess is probably pretty important to the story, you know, of why Kimmy Longhans became like this anchor for me or those albums or his voice, you know, is because even after, you know, that even after all that anxiety and all that pent-up feeling, the person who I think loves me the most is this boyfriend who then sexually assaults me at 13. And then at 14, I find out that that's what my dad's in prison for, is that he sexually assaulted someone. And I mean, at that point, it's like an identity crisis, right? It's like the two people, the two men apparently who love you most

in the world are at this point rapists. And there's something about you physically that has somehow invited that into your life. And you have to figure out if you don't want to be the girl who is defined by the fact that she was raped or the fact that her father is a rapist, then you've got to figure something else out about yourself. And also in my mind, you know, in the back of my mind thinking there might not be anything else to know about yourself. That's brutal. Yeah. So where do you go from there? Because, I mean, how do you get back to a place where even at that age how do

you even start the inquiry because i'm like now you can reflect back on this and be like okay i get like this is what was happening here's the process here's what was actually going on with me but when you're there when you're from the inside looking out at a young age and you're like okay so then who exactly am i if i'm not this person and I'm not being in part? And everybody else outside wants to define me by sort of what's happening to my body or what's happening to me. Like, how do you step back into a place of reclamation where you're saying that there's something distinct about me that's different? I think what helped me and what ultimately saved me in a certain sense was that I had surrounded myself by sort of the best people around. I don't even know how else to say it. I joined the marching band when I was in middle school.

I joined the high, you were able to join the high school marching band to be in Color Guard or to do some other things because the high school marching band was so small that like they kind of needed us. And I just became friends with this group of band nerds and theater nerds and leadership nerds. And those were my people, it turned out. And I threw myself into that world with this community who didn't ask me to be anything other than what I was, except committed to the fucking band you know I can curse but yeah I mean like that was it it was like yo you gotta come out here and you gotta march and you gotta keep you gotta leave it on the field you know I was the color guard captain and it's like that's really physical work like I didn't think it was like I was like oh it's not track like I'll be fine you know I was out of breath on that field not track. Like I'll be fine. You know,

I was out of breath on that field, but I loved it. And I loved being out there with my friends and these people who I could be silly with and who loved me. And, you know, those were the first people who told me that the things that had happened to me were not normal. Those were the first people who told me it's not okay for your boyfriend to talk to you like that or to treat you like that. Or even that it's not okay for your mom to talk to you like that. Like, it's okay that she's your mom and you love her, you know, and maybe this isn't the kind of thing where you run away or call CPS. But it's still not okay for her to talk to you that way. And having them tell me that I was talented and useful and that I was part of something where I was, you know, not just like a part of the group.

It's like I was a necessary part of the group. I needed that desperately. And my band director was like, oh man, like, listen, Mr. Holland's Opus has nothing on Mr. Todd Caffey. But Mr. Todd Caffey, who I never call Todd because I'd still to this day can't call him to his face by his first name. But Mr. Caffey was this band director slash father figure for me, who continued the work of the teacher who had given me, you know, the tape who had, you know, was that work was even continued by an English teacher who gave me fashion magazines that I loved and couldn't afford and, you know, copies of Romeo and Juliet and who talked to me about books and the world. And she was this amazing, you know, young woman who would drive herself to Chicago to see rock concerts and then, you know, come back to Indiana to teach class the following week. And just these people kept exposing me to the idea that the world as I knew it was not all of the world and that maybe I couldn't see myself as clearly as I thought I could. And having that, having these people who invested in me with their time and affection and love,

and in some cases, like their resources, it gave me something to try to like rise to the occasion of. It made me pretend to be more than I thought I was and then often find out that, okay, maybe I'm not pretending. Like maybe I can do this. Maybe I belong here. Maybe I'm actually good at this. I wasn't just in the band.

I was the color guard captain. You know what I mean? And that felt beautiful and it made me feel like I was worthy in a certain sense of a certain kind of love and consideration. And I think that's when things started to change and it just grew from there. To use an apt analogy, they were the wind beneath your wings. When things started to change and it just grew from there. To use an apt analogy, they were the wind beneath your wings. Listen, the wind beneath my wings is not even close. Like a lot of the people who were in that band are my friends to this day. No kidding.

My best friend and my boyfriend at the time. He was the drum major and I was the color guard captain. We were like the band power couple. He lives up in East Harlem. So you both ended up in New York. We did. The guy, listen, and this is from Fort Wayne, Indiana. This is not Chicago.

This is Fort Wayne, Indiana. The kid who came to the school and tried to steal me from that boyfriend now runs an organization called Broadway Black right here, you know, in Harlem. Like I met, I'm not messing with you. At the perfect time in my life, I met my people and they're still with me all the time. My best friend when I was 14 is my best friend today. And that ultimately is what saved me. Because the family I chose ended up filling in what I was missing from the family I was born into. Yeah.

Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is?

You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. It speaks to how important the people that we choose as our family, as our closest friends are around us. But I think it's also, to me, it speaks to the fact that we choose as our family, as our closest friends are around us. But I think it's also, to me, it speaks to the fact that like everybody comes up

in a different way, in a different place with different people. And there's a wide range of deep abuse and loss and lack to privilege. And I mean, the full spectrum. And there is pain and suffering across the entirety of the spectrum. Oh yeah.

But your stories, it's a really powerful sort of example of the fact that somewhere buried in there, no matter where you are, no matter what moment you're in, if you awaken to it, there's still a sense of agency. There's still a sense of yes, and I can choose to put myself in a different place with different people.

It may be brutally hard depending on what's going on with you. But I often wonder whether one of the things that stops so many from doing that is when you're on the inside looking out, you just don't even see the possibility. You're like, no, actually, I don't have that choice. If you knew my life, I don't have that choice. And I can't judge anybody because I'm not in their shoes. But just awakening to the possibility, not even like full on believing, but just like 1% belief that maybe, just maybe. You know, I tend to think that whenever people talk about how we're more divided than we've ever been and, you know, we're more separate and we're, you know, people can't even imagine a future and everyone's depressed. I'm always like, you know what we're really suffering from? A lack of imagination. More than anything else,

we suffer from a lack of imagination because what has made me feel the most despair, and I find despair personally. I don't know anybody else's relationship with despair, but my relationship with despair has always been pretty wasteful. You know, like being in despair has never helped me or anybody else even a little bit.

Yeah, I mean, it's a paralyzing emotion. It's a paralyzing emotion. It's not an enabling emotion. And I found that what causes despair is sort of looking out in our mind, what I call like the future window. And I think everybody likes to sometimes look at the future window in their mind and try to just see if they can see something on the horizon worth, you know, like going another day for. And the problem is you have to be able to imagine something on that horizon.

And if you can't imagine something on that horizon working, like if you can't imagine a world where Democrats and Republicans actually functionally work together on that horizon, then yeah, you definitely feel despair about our political process. If you can't imagine a world where we can change laws that, you know, like more accurately reflect, you know, our time and attention and care for each other, if you just can't even imagine that, then yeah, you'd see despair when you thought about that. You would feel despair when you thought about that and what some people and people react differently to despair some people react to despair by becoming completely apathetic well it doesn't matter because nothing matters because i can't see anything mattering out there the

nihilist approach the nihilist approach or you have the people who get angry about it. You know what I mean? Like, who are like, because of what they can't imagine, they're mad at other people who will even try to imagine. Because they're like, well, how come I can't see that? And it's like, because you won't let yourself see it. For whatever reasons. And I can't answer that for you. Like, that's not, there's a certain level of work that none of us is able to do for

another person. Like they have to do it for themselves and we have to do it for ourselves. And I think that that's where conversations break down sometimes is that we want to be like, well, here are the steps to be able to do what I do or have what I have or feel the way I feel. But the truth is, there are no steps. Like the real step is the point where you look at yourself and think, okay, what am I not doing? Or what am I not, or what can I do next? Or, you know, I have to imagine an outcome for myself that maybe I haven't seen before, or I have to imagine a way out of this or a way into this for myself that maybe we've never seen before. And rather than doing that imagining, I'm just going to get mad about the fact that I can't do it the way,

the exact same way somebody else did it. And you know what? It's not that the anger isn't sometimes super justified. Sometimes it is. It's just that you can't stop there. You can't just be angry. You have to maybe be angry and then you have to go imagine something new for yourself so that you can have it and not because somebody else paved a way. Yeah. You find your way to Ball State. And at Ball State, two interesting things. Well, I'm sure there are many interesting things. There's a lot of interesting things.

There's probably a lot of stuff that will never be recorded. You never, ever, ever. As with all of us when we go to college. God, I was in college at a time where none of the social media stuff existed. Good for you. So, I mean, and I know you've written about both of these and in a really impactful way. One, you find your way to therapy in college, which I think is unusual for a lot of people. And you fall in love.

And I kind of want to explore both of those things because it seemed like there was one question specifically or one request that your therapist had in college, which kind of broke a lot of things open. And it was around your willingness to accept something about the way that your mom was when you were growing up. Yeah. Yeah. My mom, and she would not say this, and I always have to say that, but my mom was emotionally abusive in a certain way. And she was angry. justifiably so, even if I didn't know it at the time, you know what?

If I had been a 22-year-old new mother and my husband went to prison for raping another woman, and while he was locked up, I found out that I was pregnant again with our second child and that now I was going to be the single mother of two kids on my own. I don't know what that would have done to me. You know, I don't know what that would have done to my heart. I don't know what that would have done to my mind. Like, I just, I can't fathom it. And it's hard as a kid because you don't know all that. And you probably shouldn't know all that. But but in my case I did have to deal with the emotional ramifications of my mom's processing of what was going on and having to deal with that is probably the thing that has been the hardest for me to unravel as a person.

It's my relationship with my mom and her emotions and then how I learned then to contain my emotions so I wouldn't, aka, end up like my mom. You know what I mean? Everybody's scared of being like their mom. And I was just scared of my anger for a really, really long time because I thought that what made my mom say the things she said or do the things she did was a loss of control on her anger. And I just thought, well, fine.

I just won't be a person who people can make angry because then they can't make me lose control the way my mom loses control. But as any person who understands emotional intelligence at all will tell you, you can't just turn off one emotion without dampening them all. And then you have to relearn how to feel your emotions. And that, you know, happened to me when I got to college because my mom wouldn't let me go to therapy before then, before I was 18. So yeah. So it finally starts to unwind. It finally starts to unwind. I finally start to have these conversations with a therapist. You know, my first session with a therapist, I couldn't even, like I cried the whole time.

Like I just bawled. Like I just sat in front of a person and cried. Did you have any sense for why you were crying at that point? No. It was just like something had come out. Something had come out and I just couldn't stop crying. It really took then having my then high school boyfriend come with me to my therapist and sort of like I would start to talk to him about things. And then I would look at her and I would just start crying. But then he sometimes would be able to finish a story that I couldn't finish or talk to her

about something that was going on to me that I couldn't say. It was like he kind of literally showed up to be my voice in therapy that I couldn't get it out. And eventually I was able to go on my own and I was able to have the conversations with the therapist on my own. And then I joined group therapy also in college and that helped me a lot. So I was doing individual and group and,

you know, shout out to Ball State, the health center there or the counseling center offered free therapy. So I never had to pay to see a therapist or a psychiatrist or be part of group that is that is an amazing thing especially these days I feel like that everything you're hearing about being in college now it's just right the level of pressure the level of anxiety the level of expectation of perfection right is insane it's through the roof and the need for somebody to talk to right who knows what they're doing has never been higher. It's amazing when you have an institution that's like, we're going to provide. I feel really lucky. I didn't just have an amazing institution as far as like the Ball State

Counseling Center and, you know, the different services that they offered students on campus. But I also was in a really amazing department. Like by the time I got to the English department, the English department where I was studying was just chock full of amazing, amazing professors who, you know, were willing and ready to like talk and have, you know, conversations around writing and feeling and all, you know, at the same time. I happened to be when I was in therapy or continuing therapy at college, I also happened to be in a nonfiction writing class, like my first essay writing class. And so the combination of, you know, those two things going on at the same time

is how I ended up writing the stuff that got me published, like at first. Were you a writer before that? Were you writing when you were younger? No. I did not think of myself as a writer when I was younger, but I was always writing and finding a way to write in different ways. I did write a lot of little sketches or plays and things like that. I wrote poems. I wrote stories, but I didn't write in the nonfiction realm until college. I didn't feel safe enough to write about me. I wasn't able to keep a journal. My mom didn't want me to keep a journal or anything like that when I was a kid. If somebody had asked you, are you a writer? When would you have felt comfortable saying, yeah? Not until that class with Jill Christman, because Jill used to tell us that writers write and that that's what makes us writers. That being published wasn't what made me a writer, but that I was committed to the craft and that I was doing it made me a writer. And I knew that those two things were true, that I was committed to it and that I wasn't going to stop. And that I was doing it, you know, often. So I was like, I must be a writer.

And I think it would have depended then on who asked me if I was a writer. My fellow students, somebody on campus. Yeah, I would have told them I was a writer. Would I have told Roxane Gay at the time that I was a writer? No. I would have told her who I'm now friends with, but I would have, I mean, but even then I told her I was trying to be a writer. And she said, trying to be.

And I said, yeah. You're in or you're out. You're in or you're out. And I was like, well, I haven't been, you know, like, but I told her, I think I said, I was like, you know, I'm trying to be a writer. Yeah. And while this is all happening also,

it's like you brought up, you know, like your old boyfriend was turning, but you also fall in love. I did. You find a new love. Tell me about Kelly. Well, you know, Kelly showed up at a really interesting time. I didn't realize that Kelly liked me.

Our story is kind of all over the place because we met in a class that was set up like a production company. It was a seminar class. And I was his boss in the class, the way it was set up. And I knew that he liked me and that I could tell that I made him laugh. But I was also at that time doing stand-up comedy. I knew I was funny. That didn't mean anything to me that he was laughing at my jokes. I was like, yeah, laugh at these jokes. This is the good shit, you know? Like, that's how I felt. But I didn't realize he was having real feelings for me. Like, he was actually attracted. Also, I didn't think somebody like Kelly would be attracted to somebody like me. Like, Kelly, if you ever meet him, and at the time he had short hair,

drove a Ford Ranger pickup truck, you know, sometimes wore like camo and stuff in class because like he hunts. And like he was such like a country boy that I was like, okay, that guy's like looking for Taylor Swift. He's not looking for me.

But he liked me immediately. And he just kept sort of popping up and like showing up at places in my life. He eventually invited me over to his house for a bonfire, which is a very Indiana thing to do. And when I got there, which was a little later than most everyone else had gotten there, he essentially said, hey, I'm going to mention that we should go four-wheeling tomorrow. None of you can go. I only want Ashley to go. And they were all like, all right, you know, like, fine. But and of course, you know, at some point he does mention going four wheeling and I'm all about it because I love stuff like that.

I'm like, yeah, I'm going to get on a four wheeler. I'm so excited. And everybody else is like, oh, no, I can't go. I got to do something. I'm like, what is wrong with you guys? This is going to be so much fun. But we go and long story short, like I didn't even know he like I said, I did not know he liked me. But one thing leads to another, we're kissing in the mud.

You know what I mean? Like off of the four-wheeler. And then we saw each other for about three months. And two weeks after that date, we found out he got into a program in New York. And I was like, I will never live in New York. I have no desire to live in New York. And we just started dating. You know, we should just have fun until you leave.

And he was like, okay. But he didn't really want that, I guess. And so he, but we did hang out until he left. He came back to Indiana for a little while, got a mixed message that I was seeing someone, left again and moved to Seattle. And then a year after living in Seattle and like two years after we had like sort of parted ways in college, he showed up on my doorstep and he literally, like, I'm not kidding. He called me

and said, hey, I'm in your neighborhood. Can I come over? And I was like, yeah. Because as far as I knew, he had been in Seattle. So I was like, what? He's around. And he shows up on my doorstep. And I open the door. And he, like, takes my hand. And he kisses me.

And then he goes, are you seeing anybody? And I said, no. And we've been together since then, basically. When he comes back, do you have a sense of like, this is actually, this is real? You know, I was ready to try. That's what happened while he was gone. That's what really happened to both of us while we were apart, was Kelly had to go away and grow up a little bit. And I needed to be by myself for a little while as well. There were a lot of things that I was trying to figure out about my life and where I was going and what I wanted out of my life. And I was

so used to making decisions about what I wanted based off of who was in my life, especially who I was romantically involved with, that making the decision just for myself was so lovely, but also fragile. It felt like I could very easily shatter that sense of self by bringing somebody else into it. And again, putting their wants and needs before my own. Because you have to understand, by the time this was all happening, I'm still not in a place, I think, where my self-esteem is really where it should be and where my sense of like what I want and

what I deserve or what I'm worthy of is very stable. Like I was still pretty fragile in that way. And I was scared that somebody would come into that and just knock everything over and just, you know, once again, I would be in a place where I was fitting myself into someone else's life instead of being in control of my own. And I think what really helped me not fear that with Kelly is that that just was never his desire. He never wanted to come in and knock anything over or knock anything out of the way or make room for himself in that way. Kelly just wanted to sort of knock on my door and look inside and respect for my time was something I hadn't experienced in a relationship before. And so I very quickly understood that the potential for something I had never had before was there because this was a kind of person who I had never been with before. And even if I was scared, you know, at least I wasn't just doing the same thing over and over

yeah Mayday, Mayday, we've been compromised the pilot's a hitman I knew you were gonna be fun on January 24th tell me how to fly this thing Mark Wahlberg, you know what the difference between me and you is? you're gonna die, don't shoot him we need him y'all need a pilot

Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. I know you've written about a moment. One of the things that concerned you was that you have seizures. Yes. And for somebody new coming into your life, potentially romantic too, at some point it's going to happen when they're around. Yeah.

So how did you process that and what was it that allowed you to realize like, oh, this is actually going to be okay with him? You know, at first it wasn't easy at all. Like at first I really, really fought it. I really fought him on being there when that was happening to me or helping me when that was happening to me. And eventually it just got to a place where, you know, and shouts out to my husband, like he was just not going to allow me to suffer. You know, like he was just not going to allow that. And he was going to find the

gentlest way possible to make me feel comfortable. But he also wasn't just going to be like, well, Ashley doesn't like it when I'm around and she's like that. So I'm just going to go in another room. He's like, she shouldn't be alone because everything that's rooted in why I wanted to be alone was shame. He was like, if you wanted to be alone because that helped you heal, that would be fine. But it's not going to help you heal to not have me in here. It's not going to feel better to not have me in here. It's not going to feel better to feel alone. You just get to feel ashamed alone. And I don't want you to feel ashamed about this. There's nothing to feel ashamed about. And him sort of talking to me about it from his perspective, but also being clear with me about the fact that he just wasn't going to let me get away with calling it anything else. He wasn't going to let me say I was shy or that I was just like used to dealing with it by myself or whatever.

He just didn't play games like that. It's like I know shame when I see it. And I know that's what's happening here. And you don't have anything to be ashamed of. So no, I'm not going to let you sit here in the dark hurting physically and being angry with yourself about it when I could be here giving you water, rubbing your back, rubbing your muscles, helping you out, you know, getting you into the blankets if you're so tired that maybe you should just go to sleep right now, you know? What was it like for you the first time that you allowed him in and he was actually there?

Terrifying and exhilarating. You know, like I was so scared because that level of vulnerability, like letting him see me like that. You know, there are very few people who have seen me like that. Very, very few people who have seen me like that. Very, very few. And of the ones who have, about half have been very kind about it and half have not. And the half who haven't, I think I gave way too much credence for a really long time. And so the fear is always that when somebody new sees me react that way or they see me have that experience in my body,

that they will react the way the half that didn't react well will. And even though that's only half, my mind it's like 95 percent you know like 95 percent of the time that's how people will react but Kel he just never did like he just and he's always made it it's not even it's not even that he doesn't get angry or react poorly. It's also that he is almost incredulous about the fact that anybody would make me feel pain. Like there was a time when he would look at me like, what? Why would I say that? And I would immediately feel ashamed. Like, oh yeah, you should know better. You should know that somebody's not supposed to talk to you like that or treat you that way, you know, or, or think that thing about you. But then that was just a way to like,

make myself feel more shame. And Kelly just doesn't do that. He's not the kind of person who's going to say, well, it's weird that you feel that way and you should stop. He's the kind of person who's going to say, I know that you do feel that way. And I also know that that is incorrect. So let's work on changing that. And that helps. It helps me. But that first time was rough. That first time I cried and I was really mad. Have you talked to him about how it was for him that first time? Oh, yeah.

We talk about these things a lot. And for him, you know, it was scary. But it was also like this determination of like, I know I can do do this I know that I can be this person for her I know I can be here and that I can help her and that then I can know that like this is just a small part of who she is and not all of who she is and I don't have to handle her with kid gloves because of this. But I also, you know, don't get to be resentful of, you know, her limitations because of this. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you guys really have, it's a really powerful, unusual, incredibly open relationship. I know you also, you wrote an essay, what was it, two years ago, Seeing My Body Through Fresh Eyes, which also kind of like explored this other dynamic of your relationship, which is the way that you view yourself weight-wise and the expectation that you sort of had that he might step into and how he, it was just like, okay, so I need to reset my expectations again.

Yeah. This is different. Yeah. And it was that like, okay, so I need to reset my expectations again. Yeah. This is different. Yeah. And it was that way with my body. You know, I, before Kelly, you gotta understand, like, way before Kelly comes into the picture, I had a grandmother who I loved and who, you know, was amazing to me, but who was also really, really over-occupied with my weight and who would say things to me about my body that weren't just inappropriate, were pretty damaging,

you know? And from there, you know, reading a lot of like teen magazines and stuff, which were all about weight loss and stuff. It's interesting in working on my book, I went and ordered on eBay a bunch of teen magazines that came out that I owned or that I would read at the library and stuff when I was a certain age. And reading them again, I'm like, no wonder I had issues with my body. Basically, everything was telling me that my body was wrong. But on top of that, you know, having like all of that messaging and those messages and stuff like that, I also have, like I said, PCOS. And part of having PCOS means that, you know, I carry quite a bit of weight in the middle of my body. And I, as Kelly has known me, I have only gained more weight. Like I'm not the weight I was when we met,

not even close. And, you know, my weight's pretty steady right now, but this is probably 40 or 50 pounds heavier than when I met him originally. And I always thought that, you know, guys were particular about weight for a reason or that, you know, guys were particular about weight for a reason or that, you know, people were particular about weight for a reason, that there was something inherently unattractive, even though I had been attracted to people with bigger bodies. Like I like that wasn't something that had ever, you know, deterred me. But it seemed like it was a perfectly reasonable, you know, reason to expect someone to ways, classically attractive person say, no, I desire you. Like you are what I want. And it does force you to change the way you see yourself because it is really, really hard to be, you know, and feel comfortable being the object of someone's

desire if you're not even comfortable thinking of yourself as desirable. So I had to relearn how to think of myself as desirable. And it sort of changed a lot about the way I function because it's not, what I found is that feeling desirable doesn't have actually a whole lot to do with what's on the outside. It has to do with how you talk about yourself to yourself. So yeah. You guys end up staying together and in fact getting married.

Yeah. Moving to the place that you would never go. New York. We do. Brooklyn. Yes. In particular. And the writing side of you that seems like it really took root in college really becomes front and center.

So you start to build your career as a writer um it's interesting though it sounds like you had sort of like a couple of fits and starts so like you dove in and struggled yeah and then kind of said okay let me sort of like let me do the mainstream thing for a while and i'll do this on the side but more recently it sounds like it's like the power dynamics have shifted, that people are coming after you. People are like, well, you write this, this, this, this, and this. And the struggle is for you these days is more figuring out what to say yes to rather than trying to find the next thing to do. What's that like for you? Terrifying. Lovely and terrifying. I know I keep saying terrifying, but so much of life is terrifying, which is kind of the point. Yeah, it is.

It's good and it's hard, right? Because on the one hand, I have a lot of cool opportunities to make cool things. On the other hand, I have had to really once again confront my limiting ideas of what is possible for me in the world and in my career. because if anybody had asked me two years ago if I could ever see myself sitting on a stage interviewing Jordan Peele and Lupita Nyong'o and Winston Duke after the premiere of a brilliant and hilarious film, I would have said, I'm not really an on-camera person. That's what I would have said or something like that. I'm not really, oh, I don't really think that's something that would ever happen to me,

or I can't really picture how I would end up there. And that would have been true because I, at the time, couldn't picture how I could end up in those situations. And that's the weird part is just not being able to picture it made me count myself out. Like, I just thought it wasn't for me because I couldn't picture it. And now, like, that's kind of like the biggest thing that's different. I no longer force myself to be able to like picture something or how I'm going to get there in order for me to be able to want to get there, if that makes sense. Like, I am more comfortable now with there being some missing parts on the journey that I'm just going to have to figure out along the way. Whereas before, I needed a bullet point by point plan. You know, like I needed that. I needed to know what my next three steps

were before I took the first step. Like I needed that. Whether it worked out or not, I just needed like that plan. And now it's like, listen, if I got a couple steps, I can figure out the third and fourth step. And then if I could figure out the third and fourth step, I know I can figure out the third and fourth step. And then if I could figure out the third and fourth step, I know I can figure out the fifth step. You know what I mean? Like it's just, there's a different level of trust in my own ability and in my worthiness of rising to the occasion.

It's like confidence and competence. Absolutely. Yeah. It's like whatever shows up, I feel like I'll be able to, whatever it is, I can nail it. Yeah. I mean, cause I was, you know, I had classic gifted kid syndrome, you know, in a certain, in a certain sense, which is that, you know, a lot of people like me, like I was an early reader. And when you show like early signs of like, you know, any sort of like prowess or intelligence or something like that, at least when I was a kid in school, what you find is that everybody tells you to focus on that. And then all the stuff that you find challenging or hard, they tell you you're not good at. Yeah. It's like the fixed mindset versus growth mindset.

Yes. Yeah. It's like the fixed mindset versus growth mindset. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was raised with the fixed mindset versus the growth mindset. And so there were all these things that I thought I couldn't do or that I wasn't good enough for because I wasn't good at them immediately, you know, and that went into my adulthood where I would sit down to write something. And if I found it challenging, I would just get scared. And learning how to work through that has been like one of the most beneficial, but also one of the hardest things I've learned because nobody up until that point,

like, it's like, if you can't do it, then something's just wrong with you. And it's been like competence and confidence. Like I've had to learn both because in some ways, like there were things that I was avoiding doing and learning because I was scared of how hard they were. Yeah. And their skills. I mean, I think that's the big news. It's like these things are acquirable. Yes. Like both of them. It may take a lot of time and a lot of work, but you can get them. You know, it occurred to me one day that the thing that I was scared of, which is trying and failing, is literally just called practice. Like that's what practice is. Right.

But when somebody would say trying and failing, I would be like, it's that F word. It was like, oh, no, I can't do that part. You know, I'm't do that part. You know, I'm scared of that part. But if somebody had said, hey, we're going to practice this, I would have been like, oh great. Yeah. This is just practice. Yeah. I mean, the truth of like the dirty little secret with everybody who becomes extraordinary at everything is it's a volume game. Yes. Yes. It really is. It really is. You gotta stumble a lot for a long time. Until you stumble less or stumble differently or stumble at the next level.

Yes. I'm really curious now. So you're in a place where you're writing amazing things, you're hosting, you're out there in the world, you're speaking. What needs to be present and an opportunity now for you to say yes? Ooh, a full body yes. Like I got to light up. Like I found that you can get offered a lot of money to do something you don't want to do. And having like the lot of money on the table doesn't make you actually want to do it more. It makes you want the money, but it doesn't make you want to do that work you don't want to do more. And so if you can make half as much of that or even a quarter of that doing something you want to do, it's like especially Black people my age are in, which is that I also help support members of my family. It's always going to be the case, like, and probably I always knew that it would be the case that if I ever had disposable income and I was able to help, like, that I would help.

That's just who I am. That's just the kind of family I was raised in. And that's all right. You know, I'm not worried about that. But one of the things that I believe in is I believe in being free of your family in a certain sense financially, which means that like, as long as I'm doing okay and I can help out I don't have any responsibility to make the most money possible so that I can give away the most money possible like that's not my responsibility my responsibility in my for me and in my mind and in my life is to share what I have in a way that doesn't create two broke people like I'm'm not broke. And if somebody in my family is broke,

I might be able to help, but I'm not going to be able to help them by making myself broke. Like now we just two broke people. That doesn't help anybody. So, you know, just having that as a mindset of like, you know, if it's not a full body light up, if it's not like, yes, I want to do that, or want to talk about that or I want to write about that, then there are other things that are worth doing for different reasons.

But that's a whole other list. Yeah. Well, of all the different things you're doing right now, like, what is the thing that you're like, oh, man, this just, you wake up and you almost laugh that you're doing it. That might be everything I'm doing right now. Like I'm, I feel really lucky right now. My word, like working on my memoir with an amazing editor at an amazing publisher, doing the profile show at Buzzfeed where I get to talk to some of the most interesting people making some of the most interesting stuff background where I come from, we have to talk about money. possibly start to lift themselves out of poverty or get a certain kind of assistance that helps them get out of poverty, people don't even know what their options are. People don't even know what to do when the opportunity is there. And that's ridiculous. Financial literacy is so low

in this country. So I feel like everything I'm doing right now my um the interviews I'm doing with my husband um talking to people about music and about like the soundtrack of their lives like that's a ton of fun I'm playing I'm playing a lot and sometimes you know there's the admin part of it and there's the work and there's the getting things done and that's okay that's because i like that stuff too you know i'm a capricorn you know what i really like forms i love filling out forms like i love administrative crap so it's like i almost every morning am waking up thinking oh man i gotta do this this and, this, and this, this, and this. And then I stop and I think, oh man, I get to do this, this, this, and this. If our listeners could see the smile on your face right now. Oh yeah. This is one to-do list, which I am seriously excited about.

Yeah. And I really am. And there's more coming, you know, down the pike. I have a list of stuff that I'm just like, man, as soon as I'm done with this project, I can start on this project. And I'm so excited because it's already in my head. And what I want to do is already something that's lighting me up. Like, I don't know that I'll be able to do this forever, you know, like do work that lights me up like this and is so fun. And I can't think of like anything to do about that other than just enjoy the hell out of it. And that feels like a great place for us to come full circle also. So the name of this is a good life project. So if I offer out the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?

To live a good life, what comes up? To live a good life, understand that you are made up of so much more than the worst or best thing you've ever done. And all of it is worth loving. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes. And while you're at it, if you've ever asked yourself, what should I do with my life? We have created a really

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