Good Life Project - Future of Medicine: Wearables and Bio-sensing Tattoos [Ep. 5]

Episode Date: December 1, 2025

Imagine a tattoo that changes color to warn you of health issues, or a watch that knows you're getting sick before you do.In this fascinating episode, we explore breakthrough biosensor technology with Imperial College's Ali Yetisen and precision medicine pioneer Michael Snyder, who reveal how real-time health monitoring is transforming from science fiction to reality. Learn how new technologies like smart tattoos, wearable devices, and advanced blood testing are revolutionizing healthcare, shifting us from treating illness to preventing it entirely through continuous, personalized health tracking.Episode TranscriptYou can find Michael at: WebsiteYou can find Ali at: WebsiteIf you LOVED this episode, don't miss a single conversation in our Future of Medicine series, airing every Monday through December. Follow Good Life Project wherever you listen to podcasts to catch them all.Check out our offerings & partners: Join My New Writing Project: Awake at the WheelVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey there, every Monday in November and December, we'll be featuring our Future of Medicine series where we'll be spotlighting groundbreaking researchers, cutting-edge treatments, and diagnostic innovations for everything from heart disease, cancer, brain health, metabolic dysfunction, aging and pain, and also sharing breakthroughs in areas like regenerative medicine, medical technology, AI, and beyond. It's a brave new world in medicine with so many new innovations here now, and so much coming in the next five to ten years. And we're going to introduce you to the people, players, and world-changing discoveries that are changing the face of medicine today and beyond in this powerful two-month

future of medicine series. So be sure to tune in every Monday through the end of the year and follow Good Life Project to be sure you don't miss an episode. And today, we're bringing you a fascinating exploration of two remarkable innovations and innovators that are transforming how we monitor and understand. or health? What if your body could tell you it was getting sick before you even felt the first symptom? Or what if a beautiful tattoo on your arm could actually monitor your health 24-7 changing colors to alert you when something needs attention? These aren't science fiction

scenarios. The real innovations happening right now in labs across the world. My first guest today is Dr. Michael Snyder, a pioneer in precision medicine who's transformed how we understand personal health data. He's founded 17 companies valued over $6 billion combined and published more than 900 scientific papers, making him one of the most cited scientists in the field. We're also joined by Professor Ali Yiddison from Imperial College London, who's developing remarkable biosensing tattoo technology that could revolutionize how we monitor everything from diabetes to mental health. His work has earned international recognition and has been featured on CNN and the BBC. And together we explore how these innovations could detect illness days before symptoms appear, why your body's

response to food is completely unique to you, and what happens when we start monitoring thousands of molecules in our body in real time? And we also discuss a fascinating question. What if we could shift from treating illness to preventing it entirely? So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. So our first guest today is Dr. Michael Snyder, a pioneer in precision medicine who's revolutionizing health care through his work with wearable technology and advanced molecular monitoring. He's the first researcher to gather unprecedented amounts of personal health data up to a trillion times more than what doctors typically collect. As the founder of 17 healthcare companies and the author of over 900 scientific papers, Dr. Snyder is showing us how tracking. thousands of molecules in a single drop of blood could transform the future of preventative medicine.

I mean, what if your smart watch could tell you that you're getting sick before you even feel the first symptom? It's just one small part of how technology is transforming the way we monitor our health. We're shifting from occasional doctor visits to continuous real-time health tracking that could help us prevent illness long before it even starts. Here's Michael. I feel like we're in this time in medicine right now where it's a combination of, you know, just frontiers expanding in the blink of an eye, all these different things are dropping in, and we're re-examining so much of what we thought was the practice of medicine, diagnostics, treatment, and the way that we go about it, the devices that we use,

the technologies that we use, you have been deep into this as well as a whole bunch of other things for years now. So a couple of things I'd like to drop into. One of the phrases that I'm hearing batted around increasingly in the space these days is this thing called omics. Take me into what this is in layman's terms so we can really understand this. Sure, yeah. Ome really refers to a collection of things. So your genome is your collection of genes, basically your DNA. Your transcriptum is a collection of your RNA.

You may know that genes make RNA makes proteins, which in turn wind up leading to metabolites. And each of those collections becomes an Ome. So as I say, your transcriptums, your collection of transcripts, your proteome, your collect them, proteins, your metabolomes, collection of metabolites. Then all of them together are called omics. The bottom line is it's really a collection of all, as many molecules as you can measure. And that's actually what we do. We do very, very deep measurements out of people's blood and urine to get a much better picture of their profile, their health profile. Yeah. So basically, if I understand, then broadly, it's a way to look at a wide range of molecules

in the body that really matter to our health. and then find ways to quantify them, to measure them. And is the intent of this then to get a better grasp on what's happening inside the body sooner so that we can understand what's going well, what's not going well, and then figure out what to do about it? Absolutely. So what happens when you go to a physician's office today? They'll measure maybe 15 things. And we're capable of measuring much, much more, tens of thousands of molecules.

And from that, those deeper measurements, we think we get to. a much better picture of people's health. So if you think of your health as a thousand-piece jigsaw puzzle, with omics, we're trying to cover seven or eight hundred of these, I would say. Whereas in a physician's office, I would argue you're collecting, you know, five or six. We just got a much, much better picture of people's health. And so we started a project a number of years ago profiling people just this way, collecting very, very deep data on them from their blood, from their urine.

Even their poop. Your so-called microbiome has a lot of information at it. And from that detailed profiles, we actually got a better picture of people's health. And in fact, in the first three and a half years of the 109 people we were following, 49 learned something pretty important about their health. And some was a big deal, like we call early cancer, two people with serious heart issues, pre-cancers, all kinds of different things. So we think these deep profiles really give you insights.

I should point out these are all found pre-symptomatically. So the folks didn't even have symptoms yet, yet we could see something was off. And then they did followups and these things were caught. And in virtually all cases, then, they came out healthy as a consequence. We didn't wait for them until something really became catastrophic. And that's how medicine's practice today is what we're trying to transform. You know, today most people go to a doctor when they're ill, I call it sick care. We're trying to do true health care.

Yeah. If this is so effective, why are we doing this on a larger scale? Part of it's because who pays? Nobody pays to keep you healthy, at least in the U.S., especially. We, you know, again, the incentives are totally misaligned. People who usually go to the doctor when they're ill, and then they get paid for that. Who's going to pay to get your genome sequence now? What we do know is that if you do sequence your genome, there's a chance we'll see what you're at risk for,

like Brack mutations, if you've heard of those, but women at high risk for breast and ovarian cancer. That's useful information to know, but unless they already know, you're at risk for it. You won't get that test. So nobody pays for these things while you're healthy. That's the problem. So we really need to change financial incentives. And I would argue the wearables, these came out of fitness trackers maybe a dozen years ago. We actually started putting it on people realizing they're pretty powerful health trackers. And it's pretty clear that, for example, now we can show when you're getting ill from an infectious disease, say COVID, your heart rate goes up ahead of time. We can pick that up. And so, we actually have early alerting system for infectious disease from a simple smart watch. And it turns out these pick up other things as well, AFIB and things like that, mostly discovered anecdotally. But they're not yet incorporated in their health system, and they should be. And here's the good reason why.

If you go get your heart rate measured in a physician's office, it's almost always elevated for most people. It's called white coat syndrome. They get nervous. Our heart rate goes up. So the measurement's not terribly accurate. But if I pull a heart rate measurement off you first thing in the morning, that's a pretty good measure of your true heart rate and what your actual health state is. And heart rate, by the way, in heart rate variability, these are two parameters that are very, very powerful for monitoring health.

And we think they should be incorporated and you should get them right off your smart watch. I think we should be giving every person a smart watch to be tracking their health and just to be part of their enrollment plan. Yeah, I mean, it is fascinating. You know, when we go to a doctor, as you described, hey, we're putting it. much only go when there's something, quote, wrong. And observably, or when you actually can feel something is wrong. It's like, okay, so now it's time to actually do the thing. And then we get a measurement taken some sort of diagnostic measurement, blood test, whatever it may be. And it's a snapshot in time, right? Which is valuable for that moment in time. But then we're ignoring,

what about, you know, like the 23 hours and 45 minutes outside of that moment in time? And like you just described, often the simple experience of being at the visit changes are physiology in a way that may affect the measurements. Yeah, so I'm a big believer we've got to get, A, be measuring people while they're healthy and catch, you know, any problems early pre-symptomatically because then it's easy to fix people. If you wait until the symptoms arrives, cancer is a good example. Once cancer is metastasized, moved to other sites in the body, it's very hard to cure. But in contrast, if you catch cancer early stage, you can almost always manage it quite effectively. So we really need to go to true health monitoring and not sick care

treatment. And so that's a good example. And I think on the wear balls, they're just so great because they measure continuously 24-7. And so they're always tracking your health. An analogy I like to use, you know, we all drive cars with dashboards. The dashboards are talking about a car's health. Race cars have over 400 sensors on them. And they relay the information in the dashboard. so you can see what's going on. Yeah, here we are, you know, as people, we don't have any dashboard for our health. It's more like a sick dashboard,

and we could be tracking this stuff all the time and catching conditions, you know, at least getting a sense of things are off, and then you go in and get a proper follow-up to actually see what is off. That's such an interesting analogy, right? Because if you think about your car, like nobody would imagine getting in their car

or buying a car without any indicators, any dashboard, like, even the most basic, like, do you have gas left in your tank? Is your battery okay? Is your engine overheating? Do you have oil? Like, we wouldn't imagine driving a car without some sort of fundamental indicators that are always on and active when we're in it. And yet, we're kind of doing the exact same thing with our lives and our bodies. Isn't that crazy? It's nuts, because we really should be tracking your health. And it's very easy, right? If you wear these rings, and you may know I have a lot of these devices here. My forewatches, my rings. Even my hearing aids, I do.

wear them for hearing, but they're sensors as well, and they're powerful, right? They'll detect when people fall these days. That's almost standard, in fact, for most hearing aids, which I don't need it for that, but I like the fact, I use it for hearing, but I do like the fact it measures other things. And I think ultimately, we can just incorporate these into leading better lifestyles. And I think one of the best set of devices out there are these continuous glucose monitors. They measure your glucose every five minutes. Those are like totally life-changing. because it turns out that a lot of so-called normal people and people are pre-diabatics, they actually still have glucose dysregulation.

And as you get older, this goes up, by the way. And so it turns out that, so glucose, if you get these spikes after you eat a meal of glucose, and it's been correlated that these spikes are actually associated with cardiovascular disease and such, if they're too high and too many of them. And so, but now you can measure that just by these simple monitors that you can get in drugstore, and you put these on, and you'll see what food spike you. And it turns out it's very, very personal, that some people spike to potatoes, others are the pasta, some of the white bread, some of the brown bread. We're all different. And it's not 100% clear what that's due to.

Some of it's due to our microbiome, but it's other things you do that other factors undoubtedly. And the nice thing is if you know what spikes you and what doesn't spike you, we'll eat the things that don't spike your glucose and avoid those that do. And now with AI machine learning, you can actually make predictions quite accurately to say, all right, well, if this food spikes you, avoid these other foods too, because they're very related. And these other foods that, you know, don't spike you, eat those kinds of foods. And we can tell you very explicitly what to do. And you can even take this one step further. If you are going to eat something that spikes your glucose, do a 15-minute brisk walk. That'll suppress your spike. So there,

There are things you can do to adjust your lifestyle so that we can all lead, you know, happier lives. Yeah. And I mean, I think this is really important also, especially let's take the case of continuous glucose matters. These are, these are these little things where you pop them on your, generally most people wear them on the back of their arm. Yeah, right, it's painless. It's, you know, they keep going and reporting in every five minutes or so for a couple of weeks often.

And, you know, I think one of the big wakeups with this, and I've experimented with a number of them. In fact, there was a time where I was wearing two different brands in the same spot on different arms because I kind of wanted to compare how they were each reporting. And interestingly enough, they were reporting different numbers. And I thought that was fascinating. And then, because I'm a little bit nerdy, I also was measuring blood glucose using a natural blood meter and poking my finger. And that gave me yet a third reading. So talk to me a little bit about the accuracy of these devices. Sure. Well, first of all, the ones that you wear, on your arm, these patches, if you will, they're measuring what's called interstitial glucose.

So that's the glucose, you know, essentially in your tissue, whereas the blood glucose is in your bloodstream. So there actually is a five-minute lag. It varies a little bit from person to person. So they should be shifted a little bit, whereas the blood glucose rises pretty quicker, the interstitial is a little bit delayed. You're right that the devices themselves are off a bit. And it's usually about 10%, it could be as bad as 20%.

It's not so much more of that. But the things that you're really looking out for are these giant spikes anyway that, you know, are essentially, they're not 20% spikes. They're more like factors of three or four, 300% spikes that you're watching out for you. So people's, you know, if you have perfect glucose control, you're around, say, 85 or 90 is the number that people use. But it's very easy. Like, it turns out I'm a type 2 diabetic. I'm an unusual, and we can talk about that. But your glucose, like in my case, if I eat the wrong food, it'll spike to 380 even more.

So it just goes totally nuts. And those are the things you're looking out for. You're trying to look for things that take you. It's called out of range. If you're healthy, you want your glucose to be under 140. And, you know, if you eat a grape, it's like eating sugar. That'll spike you maybe temporarily out of that. But if you have done of good glucose control and you eat a potato or rice, rice especially,

you'll see it can go up and stay quite out of range for some time. And there's a formula that actually translates into a more standardized measure of glucose levels. It's called hemoglobin A1C that it's modified your hemoglobin of all things. And that is the standard measure most people use today. Although, ironically, the better measure is this glucose monitor, believe it or not. That's a much better measure of your glucose dysregulation. And so my prediction is down the road. That'll become the gold standard, even if they are shifted off by 20% or what have you.

Yeah. But the most important thing about these things is, and we've shown this, so I have a company called January I, we showed just by wearing a monitor for 10 days, people improve their what's called time and range getting their glucose better, under control. They're very visual. When you see what spikes your glucose out of control, you eat differently. One of my favorite stories is a reporter was talking to me and he said, I thought I was eating the healthiest lunch. I had salmon on salad every day for lunch. What can be

better than that? So then he puts a glucose monitor on his, and his glucose just goes totally out of range. And you can guess what it was. He put a dressing on a salmon that had sugar in it. And it's an easy fix, right? Once you realize that, well, you leave the dressing off. And sure, maybe it's not a taste sweet. Probably tastes better, actually. You don't mind leaving out sugar once you start leaving it out. Like I cut out sugar is years ago.

And now I find it distasteful if there's too much sugar in anything. So anyway, he basically left that out and he got the healthy lunch he wanted. Yeah. And it's like the real-time feedback is really powerful. And I remember this back from, you know, many years ago, I remember hearing basic data on when somebody would start to work with a nutritionist. And, you know, very often the opening move is, okay, so they send them home and say, keep a seven-day food journal. And without any other guidance at all, the simple act of then tracking what was going into their body, within the third, by the third day, they were completely modifying what they're eating simply because of the first time they're saying, like, wait, what? This is what I'm actually putting inside of me.

And once you realize it. Those muffins are not very good for you. Yeah. Right. So when you have something that's actually automatically looking inside your body and reporting what you can't easily see from the outside and showing what's happening inside of you when you behave in certain ways or consume certain things, I know for me it's been incredibly powerful. I'm curious also, and I think I'm guessing you would say this is one of the benefits of these wearable devices, a CGM in particular. There are foods where, you know, people would say, or, you know, professional. will say, these are good for you. These shouldn't affect your blood glucose all that much.

I would eat them and I would see a spike. So this is much more individualized than maybe we're led to believe, isn't it? It sure is. And also, the way things are labeled can be very misleading. Have you seen things called protein bars, kind bars? Some of them are just totally loaded with sugar in spite of the name. So this kind of tips you off. Now, in principle, you could probably read a fair amount of it from the package. Although, as you point out, it's very personal. So there's no better way to, you know, know what's going on than seeing it. You eat the thing and you see what it does your glucose and it's very, very behavioral modifying, as I say. It's incredible. Everybody wears one of these changes their eating habits and in a good way.

Yeah, absolutely. It was interesting for me because I did an experiment where I had a sweet potato, which in theory was supposed to be better for me, more fiber. It's a different, like, a thing. And then a white potato to see what the, for me, there was actually zero difference. They created an almost identical spike. I was like, oh, there's something about my body that's reacting almost exactly the same to these two different things, even though one is supposedly, you know, designed to create a lower spike, to have a lower glycemic index. So it's interesting to see the individuality.

Yeah, I have a good one for you. Some people will spike more to white rice thing, ice cream. So, yeah, it's very personal. Yeah. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Let's talk about smartwatches also, because you started out by talking about them. As you raised your arms in the image, you're aware, what, six, seven, eight different devices on your wrist? Oh, no, just four.

Let's see if I come on the screen there. And my ring is another one, yeah. And my hearing aids is yet another sensor, so, yeah. talk to me more, take me a little bit deeper into smart watches and what they're allowing us to see now that is really helpful. Oh, they're super powerful. So they'll measure wrestling heart rate, heart rate variability pretty accurately for most devices, actually. They may not be as accurate when you run really hard and your heart rate goes up. But we often don't use that as much in routine, you know, health monitoring. But they'll also measure your blood oxygen, some

accurately, some not so accurately, skin temperature is another thing they measure. There's something called galvanic stress response, which is conductance on your skin. That actually is not usually used in a doctor's office, but it turns out it has medical value. So meaning when you're diabetic, your skin gets drier and you actually have less conductance and you can pick that up. And likewise, when you're stressed, you'll sweat more and your conductance goes up. So there's a measure for stress that you would otherwise necessarily gap from a doctor's office. What else do they measure? Not continuously, but usually when you put your finger on it, you can measure your EKG,

your heart patterns, if you will, and some of the devices will measure blood pressure, or some of them are active, some are not. Now, even when these measurements aren't accurate, like skin temperature, some devices are quite good, some not so good, but even if they're not accurate, they'll measure the shift, to change from baseline. And that's what's most important. Knowing your healthy baseline and seeing when things shift away from that, that's so key. So like, for example, when you said earlier in our conversation that you were able to detect the early onset of a virus in somebody, maybe before they even were experienced symptoms, what were you looking at? What did the devices tell you that let you see

this? Yeah, well, backing up a minute, the reason we got into this, we started putting these on the folks where we're following these smart watches, and including me, and early on, I discovered when I first got Lyme disease because my blood oxygen drop there, I had a blood oxygen monitor because they weren't on the watches back then.

Now they are. And I saw my heart rate go up. Those two parameters change. I later saw my skin temperature shift. So that was from Lyme disease. Again, it was very clear signal. All pre-symptomatically, by the way. So I had not yet had symptoms,

yet I saw these shifts. And so that's what got us into the space, big up Lyme disease. And then we went on to discover that you can tell respiratory viral infections, including asymptomatic ones from that. And then we actually published us in 2017, and then COVID came.

As you might imagine, we ramped it up big time. And the number one parameter we were following at the time is resting heart rates, very sensitive measures, as little as two beats per minute. We'll pick that shift. And that can be a respiratory viral infection. It can be other things triggering it as well, including, by the way, workplace stress will

increase your heart rate. So I think these devices, they're very powerful for physical stresses like respiratory viral infection, but they're also going to be powerful for mental health markers as well, which we do not have good markers for it. So I think this is going to be very, very important in the future for all kinds of measurements. So these, back then it was resting heart rate. these days, it's probably not appreciated, heart rate variability, which is, so your heart rate has a pattern.

You hear, you know, oh, I have 61 beats per minute or something like that, is my resting heart rate. Well, it turns out your autonomic nervous system is always firing it, and actually there's slight shifts in that, and a highly variable heart rate is good, please or not. If your heart rate is not variable, then that's actually bad. It's a sign of disease. And so when you get an infection, when you have cardiovascular disease, even cancer, your height rate variability drops.

And so your watches can actually pick that up for cardiovascular disease and for respiratory viral infections. And we think for some other things as well. So again, they're tracking some pretty important health parameters. And the other thing they do is they do modify people's behavior as well. So I'm a believer that everybody should get a smart watch when they first enroll in a health plan because you will actually improve your data. Now, most people learn their patterns, throw the watch in a drawer after three months.

But if we could actually incorporate this into their health care, hopefully they would wear it all the time. And one example I like to give is that a lot of people, you know, they've trained themselves to walk these 10,000 steps a day. And everybody who gets the 9,500 will walk that extra 500. just get that 10,000 milestone, if you know what I mean. So I think they also give some behavioral, you know, improvements just by wearing these devices. Yeah, I completely agree. I know that's been the case for me as well.

What's the future of these types of devices? If you're looking ahead, say, five years now, and you're looking at the evolution, what do you see either in development or coming? That would be the next evolution of these. That would be just the next also. order of magnitude of being helpful and giving us really good information. Yeah, well, we certainly need to adjust our healthcare system, become true health care and not sick care.

And I think it's a consequence of that. If we can incentivize people, when they sign up, you get a $10 a year, just something trivial, maybe $50 a year discount if you wear your smartwatch or wear a CGM once a year. I think that would then make these things commonplace. So I would love to see that. What are the kinds of technologies are coming? Well, retinal scanning is turning out to be very, very interesting. Either, and I think that can be done very, very quickly,

either, you know, more sophisticated device, say right outside of your grocery store or maybe at work or even from your smartphone. And these days, you can certainly pick up a lot of eye conditions from a retinal scan, but you can start to pick up things like early signs of Alzheimer's, dementia, cardiovascular, Aska disease all from, you know, an image of your eye.

And I think we're going to see that accelerate in, you know, five, ten years from now. That could become a routine part of your medical exam. Again, it's another window into your health. And I predict there'll be other things as well, facial recognition, voice recognition that are also health monitors. I think the combination of all these things is going to be super, super powerful, again, for passively tracking people's health, make it low energy. So it's very easy for them to do this. Another area that our lab pushes on is remote monitoring, where you do little droplets of blood.

You can collect them on a device. We actually spent seven years perfecting this. I know what this is going to sound like, but ours actually does work. You give these little drops of blood. You mail it in to our lab, and we can now measure as 7,000 analytes off this drop of blood, 7,000 molecules, if you will.

Very, very powerful. And we've commercialized this of this company, iolo that actually can do measure 650 metabolites again from one of these mail-on drops of blood and they read out all these 20 different categories oxidative stress inflammation heart health kidney health they're measuring all these metabolites again that are windows into what your biochemistry looks like that's very very powerful and again part of this whole thing will be using AI to actually take the data around you, plus all the data that's out there, where did medicine is data now, and you actually incorporate that and make very personalized recommendations

about this. And it's not just exercise more, eat better. It's really, you know, eat this. And we talked about this with glucose monitoring about how it really tells you what to eat, not to eat. But if you're up for oxidative stress, there's things you should be eating that will probably help mitigate that and other things as well. So I think we can use information in a way that's never been possible before to help us live long, healthy lives. And that's really the goal. I might just have one other fact, which is you probably know that, at least in the U.S. and Europe, there's a big difference between people's health span, the amount of time they live healthy, and lifespan. And it depends how you measure that, but it's basically 11 to 15 years

people would say, meaning the last decade of life, people live is unhealthy. And we want to change that. We really should have people living long, healthy lives, and, you know, then pass away. And not only would that be more fulfilling, but I think it would save a ton of money. And so I think by health tracking, we can achieve that goal. At least that's what I hope. And probably at the same time, you'll extend people's lifespan a little bit, too. Yeah.

is there a risk of what's the right language you're not overtracking but when we start to quantify everything that's basically happening within us and we have devices that report it in real time is there a risk of actually being able to give ourselves so much real time information and feedback that it kind of sets us into a neurotic spin that actually becomes unhealthy yeah that might be true for some people i predict that's not going to be true for most i think you have to educate people I have to, you know, when people first wear their watch, they start getting, they're very attentive. But I think you learn how to work with that information in a positive fashion. So I think it can actually help allay some of your concerns.

Like people are at risk for certain cancer. If they get whole body MRIs, they can see whether some of the stuff is there or not. It reminds me a little bit when genome sequencing first appeared, people getting their genomes, their DNA sequence, and then predicting risk. were very much against that most were, not all, most were. And they were worried we were going to turn everybody into hypochondriots, going to cost millions of dollars. Well, they've warmed up to this idea now, most have,

because imagine you see you have a bracky mutation. Well, then you go get screened more often. You can use this information in a positive way. And I think that's how we have to approach it. We have to educate people that way, both physicians and patients, yes, this may expose things. you should assume you're at risk for something. We all are. And so you want to know what those somethings are, again, so that you can better manage your lifestyle, know what to get checked up. But

we don't even know how often you should get measured, right, for your health. That's not really clear. And so I would argue it depends what you're at risk for. If you are at risk for diabetes or something, well, then you get that measured a lot more often. If you're risk for breaks cancer. Make sure you're getting your mammograms, this sort of thing. So I think we could just incorporate this into what we normally do, much back to the car. If you see things going off, well, then go get it checked up. And you don't wait until your car breaks down to get things fixed or you shouldn't. It would not be the best way to operate. Yep. Feels a good place for us to wrap up. Super useful. I'm excited to share all this with our community. Great. That was my pleasure.

And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Goat Live Project is sponsored by Nutra Fall. So you know that moment when you look down and see more hair in your brush than you expect it and your heart just kind of sinks a little? Well, my wife Stephanie remembers that vividly. Around menopause, her hair started thinning and shedding a lot more. And it was emotional because, I mean, come on, hair is personal. And when she found Neutjafall, everything really changed.

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this holiday season with Nutra Fall. Whether you're treating yourself or someone on your list, visibly healthier, thicker hair is the gift that keeps on giving. Right now, NutraFall is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription, plus free shipping when you go to Nutrafall.com and use the promo code Good Life. That's Nutrafall.com promo code good life for $10 off. Our next guest is Professor Ali Edison from Imperial College London, who's creating remarkable biosensing technologies that merge art with medical innovation. A fellow of the Royal Society of Chemistry and the Institute of Physics, his work has earned international recognition been featured on CNN and the BBC, and after earning

his PhD from Cambridge and training at Harvard, he's dedicated his career to developing medical diagnostic devices that could transform how we monitor our health, making sophisticated medical tracking accessible to everyone. And imagine this. What if a beautiful tattoo could monitor your health and alert you to rising stress levels or blood sugar changes just by changing color. Imagine having a piece of art on your body that not only looks cool, but could actually help prevent health issues before they become serious problems. This isn't fantasy. It's real technology being developed right now. Here's Ali. I think maybe a good place for us to start out. If you could maybe just provide a bit of general background more broadly about the research that

your lab is focusing on now. Yeah. So my background is in engineering, and my lab is based in Imperial College London, in the Department of Chemical Engineering. And we work on a number of medical devices, biosensors, and other types of key wearable and implantable platforms for medical applications. And what led you into this? Yeah, it's primarily my curiosity and having a propensity to do something good for the world. Tell me more about biosensing. technologies. Walk me through what you're talking about here in sort of, you know, like layman's terms. Yeah, biosensors are crucial technologies and they are usually a part of a medical device that allows us to measure the concentrations of a target biomarker. So this target

biomarker can be glucose, it can be protein, it can be hormones, it can be cortisol, for example, a stress hormone, or other types of key important markers that allows us to determine the health condition of an individual. So such devices can come in different forms. They can be, for example, electronic, they can be optical or they can be magnetic. And they're usually integrated within a medical device that allows us to track these biomarkers usually in real time. So if somebody's hearing this, my sense is if they have experienced this, it may be the easiest sort of like thing that they might envision is some sort of wearable device or even for those who are, I've been curious about glucose monitoring, I think millions of people now are familiar with the concept of a continuous glucose

monitor, that little round thing that often you see on people's arms. Are those examples of what you're talking about here? Yeah, that's exactly right. So we're talking about glucose monitoring systems and continuous glucose monitoring platforms actually a relatively new technology that has emerged about 15 to 20 years ago. And they are currently the market leader for applications in type 1 diabetes monitoring. But these devices can also be. be used in point of care settings. So they can be handheld devices. For example, they can be a COVID-19 test. We call them lateral flow essays. Or they can be even implantable chips that can be implanted subcontaneously just right under your skin. So among the different projects that you're working

on, one of them is you've developed a biosensitive technology that can take the form of effectively a tattoo. Take me into this. Yeah. So this was a project that was developed in collaboration with the MIT Media Lab, and we worked with a number of designers and artists at that time. And the project emerged in early 2000s, and our vision for this project was to think about the next generation of wearable platforms. So as you know, the current wearable platforms can be in the form of a smartwatch, or it can be a temporary tattoo, so in the form of some type of patch system. But what we really wanted to do in this project is to design a seamlessly integrated platform that can be utilized for monitoring the concentrations of biomarkers in real time,

in a continuous manner. So we have a developed tattoo platform. So these are injectable materials, just like your traditional tattoos, but the difference is that these tattoos can change their color or they can change their color intensity, or we call this a flu. fluorescent intensity in response to a wide range of target markers. So these target markers can be glucose. So that's for diabetes monitoring. They can be for proteins, hormones, or other types of important biomarkers that we really need to track in real time. So this allows us to do, for example, real time or continuous measurements by the naked eye. So you can just look at the colors and you can determine whether you have high glucose, high sugar levels, or you have high stress levels.

So these are usually based on colors. And the colors, for example, can change from blue to green to red. And based on those color changes, you can visually inspect the tattoo and make your own informed decision. And we can also utilize additional devices, for example, smartphones or a smartwatch, to capture an image of these tattoos. So once we capture the image using the smartphone camera, your smart one will automatically analyze those images. and provide a quantitative data. So exact values. For example, your glucose concentration may show up as 9.0.

I mean, that's pretty incredible. So effectively, I want to make sure I'm getting this right. Basically, you've developed a way to incorporate biosensor kinds of materials into, I'm going to use sort of like rough terms, effectively an ink that can be tattooed onto somebody's skin. So maybe you have a, like something that appears at first, first glance to be just a really cool tattoo design. But the biosensors that are embedded in it, they're correlated with whatever the particular thing you're trying to track in your body is, whether it's glucose or stress or the different things you talked about. So you can have a tattoo

of, say, for example, a butterfly on your forearm, and you're somebody who's concerned about your glucose levels. And rather than wearing the sort of a device that you wear on the outside of your arm, you've got this tattoo. And on any given moment, You could look at this and maybe the wings of the butterfly or green or maybe it's red or maybe it's somewhere in the middle. And the color variation would tell you what your glucose levels are and also alert you to when you're in range or out of range. Is that about right? Yeah, that's exactly right. And that's the sort of the vision that we had behind this project. And we believe that this can be realized at least in the next five to ten years and integrated into commonly used medical diagnostic technologies or platforms.

you have just mentioned, the color changes are critical, and those color changes can be used to alert the patient, in this case, a patient with type 1 or type 2 diabetes, and the patient will be informed right away as the concentration of glucose spikes in their blood glucose levels. So here, I have so many questions. One of my curiosity is when you're developing something like this, so this is a new technology, and you're talking about something that is effectively injected into a person's skin. So I'm guessing it's not the easiest thing on an experimental basis to get permission to just do this on sort of like living people while you're doing it. How do you develop and test this? Is there some other substrate that you use to sort of like

develop the idea before you actually get to a human being? Yeah, Regouter hurdles is a big challenge in our field and this is usually done in a number of steps. So the first usually the step is to validate the technology in laboratory conditions, making sure that all the sensors are working correctly and they report on the concentrations of target biomarkers with a given sensitivity and selectivity values and correct detection range. So once this has been determined in laboratory conditions, the next stage is usually to carry out testing in blood samples. So we usually obtain blood samples from the patients and despite those blood samples with a target biomarkers. So in this case, we can increase the concentration of glucose or, let's say,

we are sensing a protein using these patient samples. So once this process is complete, the next stage is usually to carry out live animal experiments. And recently, FDA has issued a guideline to reduce, in fact, some of those animal experiments. So we are moving towards more laboratory based essays rather than utilizing the highest amount of animals that needs to be sacrificed in laboratory conditions. So, but today, such experiments are still required for having compliance with the FDA. So once that process is complete, we can determine the tattoos or these materials, as you call, ink's, smart in, are validated.

We can move to the next stage in these are human trials. So we can carry out small human trials. So this range usually from 1 to 10 patients. And if these technologies are shown to be successful in human trials, early stage human trials, then we can move to a more complex double-blinded clinical trials. So these are multi-centered trials that includes loss of patients around 100 to 1,000 patients that provide definitive measurements regarding the performance and sensitivity of the sensors. I mean, when you're doing something like,

that, especially when you get to human trials, you know, when you get to the sort of the gold standard, the double-blind placebo-controlled trials, you know, and for those listening, what that, you know, means is we've got, you know, a group that actually has the active treatment. And then another one which has a, a quote, sham treatment, which for all intents and purposes, they shouldn't be able to distinguish. They shouldn't know whether it's the real or the fake one. And, you know, the double-blind part is that the practitioners also don't know whether they're delivering. So that you're trying to eliminate bias from the whole process. In the context of a tattoo on somebody's skin that changes color.

How do you do the fake part of it? So what you just described applies to traditional pharmaceutical drugs experiments and clinical trials. So in medical devices, we need to benchmark the technology to a current platform. So this may include, for example, finger-prick blood measurements or the blood measurements simply that can be sent to a centralized facility. And the current clinical standard at the moment is the wearable platforms. We call them electrochemical sensors, and they are usually marketed by Dexcom or Metronic.

So usually it will be benchmarked against a wearable platform like the Metronix system. Or it can be a continual monitoring platform, such as the flush glucose monitoring systems from a bot libular system. Got it. So it's a different sort of like design than what I was describing, which is more for pharmaceutical-based intervention. Correct. So it's a slightly different approach, but the aim is the same. So the idea is to determine whether your technology is safe and it's performing as it's advertised, basically. Yeah. So we've referenced glucose monitoring a number of times. What are some of the other big things that this might be able to be used to help detect? Yeah. So beyond glucose monitoring, one of the areas that we are working at the moment is related to mental health monitoring. Currently staggering statistics, there are 997 million people around the world who lives with mental health disorders and challenges.

So one of the projects that we are undertaking at the moment is to monitor the concentration of cortisol. So it's a stress biomarker that can be correlated with a number of mental health conditions. So this may include anxiety, depression, and other types of critical conditions. And this technology that we are working at the moment aims to measure the concentration, of cortisol in real time. At the same time, you're looking at some other biomarkers, including serotonin, adrenaline, and dopamine, which could be useful for applications in mental health monitoring.

Such devices can also be utilized, as I call it, a device because I consider it as a medical device. These are so-called inks, are monitoring the conditions for fitness. So, for example, an athlete can utilize these devices to monitor the concentrations of electrolytes. maybe sodium, potassium, calcium, and other important ions in their blood. So as they're exercising, they can determine their dehydration status in real time.

I mean, it's amazing because you're talking about health on the one side. We're talking about performance. And are these a type of things also where I'm going to go back to that butterfly on my forearm, right? And we've got the smart ink in there, and it's tagged a particular type of whatever it is that we're monitoring. Let's use the stress, the markers for stress. is this a type of thing where you would potentially be able to see a color change on a tattoo on your arm before, because it's picking up, let's say, an increase in cortisol, before you're even consciously aware that you're actually becoming stressed and it can alert you sooner than normal so you could do something

about it to try and downregulate your nervous system? Exactly. So the whole idea here is to move from a single snack. snapshot image. I'm talking about clinical diagnostics in hospital settings to real-time or continuous monitoring platforms that we can alert patients in real time. So in the case of the cortisol sensor, the color will change, for example, from blue to green to orange to red. So these gradual changes in colors will be able to alert patient in real time. I mean, it's amazing because effectively what it sounds like you're also creating is it's about feedback mechanism. So if you see, you know, you're heading into a meeting or you've got something stressful going on

the day and you kind of look at this and you look at that tattoo in your arm and it's starting to go from blue to the next to the next. And then let's say maybe you have a breathing technique that's your go-to for stress management or whatever, you know, meditation, you could literally start to do your, we'll use breathing as an example, like engage in your, you know, your slow breathing and potentially visually see from just the change in the color of the tattoo, visually see the markers for cortisol going down in your body. So it's this immediate feedback mechanism based on your behavior or intervention. Does that track? Exactly. So what you're talking about here is the real-time feedback, a visual feedback.

This really falls within a realm of what we call the quantified self-movement. Yeah. So I will briefly unpack what that is. So there's a growing number of individuals who are tracking their bodily biomarkers, biomarkers in real time. This may be glucose, their blood pressure, their heart rate, and there's a huge growing community around the world who's engaged in this community. So the idea here will be to provide quantifiable measurements to an individual in real time. So they will be able to engage with protective actions. So it may be a breeding, for example, exercise. it can be taking a medication or just taking some time off and relaxing.

So we will be able to, in the future, we'll be able to provide some of that actionable information to an individual until it's too late. Maybe in the mental health conditions, the patient may undergo a gradual, what we call, a crisis. So it's an inclined level of crisis. So we will be able to intervene or the patient will be able to, to self-diagnose themselves and monitor their condition in real time. Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating because I feel like so many of us, we're not super tuned into our state of mind, we're not super tuned into our physiology, and we often don't realize

something's going a little bit off the rails until we're deep enough into it that we're almost in crisis mode. So this presents an opportunity potentially to have something that can alert us a lot more quickly so that we can come back into a better place of regulation long before anything becomes crisis mode. Yeah. So this is basically the future of what you're talking about, the future of medicine. And if we don't measure it, we don't know what's happening. So that's one of the challenges why a lot of people end up in emergency rooms and in clinics, especially not only mental health, but any other health disorders or diseases, is that we don't know

what's exactly happening. And not everyone also can track some of the symptoms and in a quantifiable manage, and we don't really know what's happening until someone ends up in an emergency room. So what we are trying to do here is to develop technologies that can be utilized for early detection of some of these disorders and diseases. But at the same time, we can build a bigger picture of the patient's health using continuous real-time monitoring platforms. Yeah, it's so amazing. One of my questions, curiosity, is floating on my mind now also is, I'm guessing that even once you have these smart inks well developed and validated and you go through what the FDA process is to bring them to market, this is not going to be something that your

typical tattoo artist is going to be doing. So how does this actually get implemented? Yeah. So the way that we envision the implementation of this technology will be through a healthcare professional. So just like the current continuous school cause monitoring technologies, you are going to have an applicator technology. So based on the pattern that you choose, the applicator will be able to apply that pattern to your skin with a push of a button, single push off a button. So you basically press the button and there will be a microneedal array platform that will inject the tattoo ink into your skin.

And that will just be within just a couple of seconds. That's amazing. And for anybody who's not familiar with the way that CGMs continues, glucose monitor has worked these days. Generally, you get a little delivering mechanism and you put it against your skin, you push a button and it pushes a needle out of this little device and into your skin, but it's a microneal as you usually. It's painless. You don't feel anything. I've done it many times myself. So you're talking about basically having something similar, but instead of one, you know, there would be a pattern

of microneedles that are injecting this into, and it would be like pretty instantaneous also. So maybe a doctor's visit, you do the thing when you're there, and then you walk out and you've got your tattoo. Yeah, that's exactly right. So the difference in the, a difference in this case, instead of inserting about half an inch small probe, a sensing probe, just right under your skin, here we're talking about utilizing a microneedle array, which is much, much smaller, and the array will be able to determine the concentrations of these target biomarkers using color changes. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. I know we're having this conversation sort of in the middle of the research phases. Do you have any sense for,

when something like this might actually be available for people? So we are envisioning that this technology can be available in five to ten years. And the reason for these time differences and twice so long is that such technologies needs to go through very detailed clinical trials and usually multi-centered and clinical trials that require patient recruitment and also establishing that this technology is also performing better than the current existing technologies in the case of the electrochemical glucose monitoring technologies. Yeah, I mean, that makes a lot of sense. And then in the context of all sorts of other things you might measure, you know, there aren't easy technologies where somebody can just

quickly, you know, like put it on their arm or their belly or wherever it may be. They have to literally keep going in to a practitioner or to a healthcare center to get new numbers. So like the possibility of this just providing continuous data. for different types of markers where it's actually pretty burdensome to keep getting new numbers and new numbers. That sounds like it would be pretty game-changing. Yeah, so this is really the future of medical diagnostics we're talking about here. And currently we can do, for example, one biomarker that's glucose. But in the future, this is going to be much more. So we will be able to monitor many other biomarkers that can be related to a health condition or some of these

biomarkers can also be utilized for preventative health care. So you will, for example, be able to know the concentrations of key biomarkers, let's say, serotonin or dopamine, adrenal, or cortisol, and you'll be able to make informed decisions before it's too late sometimes. Hmm, amazing. Anything that I didn't ask you that you feel like would be important to share. Yeah. So one of the important points that I would like to cover is related to the stigma associated with

having a tattoo or any type of medical diagnostic data, you know, stick to your arm and anyone else around you is able to observe such information. Now, one way that we can get around such stigma issues is related to design of this platform. So we can design these devices to operate in near infrared. So we can have invisible tattooings. Only your smartwatch or your smartphone will be able to see the signal coming from the tattoos, but you will be able to maintain the full privacy utilizing this type of platforms. Oh, that's wild. So invisible to the naked eye, but you hold a cell phone up to it, and your cell phone will be able to see whatever the reading is. Exactly. And another advantage of these platforms is for people who are using regular

medication. So if you're utilizing a medication for your heart condition, or even for your mental health condition, you will be able to track the concentrations of key biomarkers or actually the dosage of your medication, whether it's effective or not, in real time, utilizing this type of wearable platforms. Yeah, it's just so incredible. I want to sit here and just wind the clock forward five or ten years so we can just have this, so we're publicly available from millions of people because it really sounds like it'll be a game changer.

Yeah, indeed. That's the vision that we have for this project. Yeah. Thank you so much. I really appreciate the conversation. You're sharing the research you're working. Thank you very much for having me on your podcast. Yeah. Hey, before you leave, a quick reminder that this conversation is a part of our special Future of Medicine series. Every Monday through December, we're exploring breakthrough treatments, diagnostics, and technologies, transforming medicine, health care, from cancer and heart disease to aging, pain management, and more. If you found today's conversation valuable, you won't want to miss a single episode in the series.

Next week's conversation is with Dr. Ross Levine, Chief Science Officer at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, where we dive deep into the revolutionary advances happening in cancer research and treatment from AI-powered diagnostics to break through immunotherapies and the increasing ability to detect and prevent cancer before it starts. Dr. Levine offers us inspiring glimpse into how we're fundamentally transforming our approach to this disease. It's a conversation that brings both hope and clarity to one of medicine's most challenging frontiers. Be sure to follow Good Life Project wherever you listen to podcasts to catch every conversation. Thanks for listening. See you next time. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers, Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young.

Christopher Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still listening here, do me personal favor, a seventh second favor, share it with just one person. I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too, but just one person even. Then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered, to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter, because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.