Good Life Project - Garrard Conley: Boy Erased.

Episode Date: January 15, 2019

Garrard Conley is the author of the New York Times Best Selling memoir Boy Erased (https://amzn.to/2CioQ7k), now also a major motion picture (http://www.focusfeatures.com/boy-erased).Growing up in a small town, immersed in a faith-based community, Conley survived conversion therapy before becoming a writer, activist and speaker (http://garrardconley.com/). He lectures at schools and venues across the country on radical compassion, writing through trauma, and growing up gay in the complicated South. He works with other activists to help end conversion therapy in the United States and abroad. He is also a returned Peace Corps volunteer, having served in Ukraine as an ESL instructor and HIV/AIDS educator.Conley's writing can be found in The New York Times, TIME, VICE, CNN, BuzzFeed, Them, Virginia Quarterly Review, and The Huffington Post, among other places, and he is currently at work on a novel about queer 18th century lives.In today's conversation, we explore Garrard's personal journey, his career as a writer and advocate, and how it feels having your story told in a major motion picture featuring Nicole Kidman, Lucas Hedges and Russell Crowe.-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sparketypes/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So as I sat down with my guest today, Garrett Conley, a film starring Nicole Kidman, Russell Crowe, Lucas Hedges, and many others that told the story of his life was playing in theaters around the country and around the world. The name of that film is Boy Erased, and it's based on a memoir that Garrett wrote that actually started out as an essay that he never thought would be seen by more than a handful of people in a small classroom where he was studying and writing. It tells the story also of his life growing up in the South and discovering his sexuality and then going through a pretty horrific experience called conversion therapy. And it's also, it has started a

conversation about gender, identity, faith, family, love, that is deep, nuanced, challenging, and really, really excited to be able to share my conversation that takes you back into Garrett's life and his own explorations, and also brings the sort of zoom the lens forward and explores, well, what happens when this story actually becomes public first as an essay and then as a memoir and now on major screens around the world, especially for a person who is a pretty private person,

is a pretty introverted person and then becomes thrust into the role of public person, and to a certain extent, activist for a point of view. Really excited to share this with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, We are both living in New York City these days. We come from radically different places. Charge time and actual results will vary.

We are both living in New York City these days. We come from radically different places. I'm from the area. You're from a place really similar with small town in Arkansas. Yeah, small town Arkansas. Actually, the first town I grew up in had 100 people in it. No kidding. My dad's business was the only business other than a grocery store in town.

And that was like barely a grocery store. It was like, you know, one of those, you could slice your deli meats there. You could get a few frozen items. That was about it. And my dad ran a cotton gin that had been in my mother's family for, since 1940 something. So he took over once he married my mother

and that they had that for 25 to 30 years. I can't remember how long. And then my dad moved to a place called Cherokee Village, Arkansas, which is a little bit bigger. We had like a movie theater there. It played two movies, which was insane for us. My mom and I were like,

what riches have we stumbled into? I'm serious. That was what it was like. We used to have to travel, you know, four hours to get to a major city. And so we moved there. My dad became a car dealer and concurrently a preacher.

And those two, you know, they're strangely compatible in some ways to sell cars and sell God. You're selling ideas one way or another. And that's what we're doing. We're all preaching some gospel. But my dad decided that he needed to be a preacher full time. And that's when he moved to another little town and opened up his own church there. Yeah. When you were younger, sort of before, I mean, was your family just deeply steeped in faith

or did it sort of slowly emerge? You know, we'd always gone to church three times a week, twice on Sunday, Wednesday nights as well. The church was the community where we grew up. I mean, like I said, there were only two quote-unquote businesses. You don't really hang out at a cotton gin. It's really loud. So we would spend a lot of time at the church, and everyone we knew, that was sort of where we gathered. I think that it was part of our lives in a way that sitting down for dinner was a part of our lives. And then later, when dad became a pastor, it became a much bigger part of our lives.

I mean, my dad had actually always held Bible lessons with his employees, which is an interesting choice. And he did that at the Cotton Gin and he also did it at the dealership. You know, we'd never seen the kind of radical faith that he had. You know, we grew up with this idea of a literal interpretation of the Bible, which who knows whatever that is, because you actually cannot do it and be a modern person in the world. Yeah. Did you ever read H.J. Jacobs? Yeah. Year of Living in the Middle East. Yeah. That's great.

Yeah. We can't wear mixed fabrics. Right. Or eat shrimp and all that stuff. So, you know, we'd grown up with that, but suddenly when my dad became a pastor, there was this intensity that entered our household where everything we were reading or watching or doing was under scrutiny. And he was doing a lot of that, but also we felt, and I think this was very true, it wasn't just something we felt, that the community was watching us to see if our family was upright, to see if this man who claimed to be called by God to the service

was actually the right man for this. And you can imagine as someone who was starting to realize he's gay, that this wasn't exactly the best situation for me. Yeah. And I guess it's, you know, what you're describing is that people are sort of measuring his righteousness or like, you know, is he the person based not just on him, but on the choices he made on the family and the way they represented him. The family was everything. I mean, what we, you know, we listened to that radio program, Focus on the Family back then, which was also very involved in conversion therapy. And everything revolved around your family. Like that's how you proved that you were a good man.

I mean, it's very classically patriarchal, right? If someone gets out of line, you got to correct them. That was the idea. What was, tell me about your mom during this window. Well, mom, you know, her reaction to dad becoming a preacher was not exactly positive. She was like, I did not sign up for this. I am not a preacher's wife. And she kept saying things like, she'll kill me for saying this, but I'm going to say it anyway. She would be like, I'm not going to wear a denim skirt and go to church and look like all these other women who are these demure preacher's wives. My mom always has had a very strong relationship with God and a strong faith, but she expresses it in her own unique way.

And she believes, especially now, that one should feel free to express God's love in whatever way they want to, whether or not it's her flamboyant outfits or, you know, sometimes crazy hair, you know, she feels like that's important. I always joke about how my mom, if she, she'd had a real chance, she would have really loved drag. She would have loved drag performances because it's so like flamboyant and out there. And I feel like my mom would really fit in in that crowd. It would worship her. So it was not a great time for mom to realize that this was the world we were in and everything suddenly seemed drab. I mean, we were so excited to go from this hundred person town where everything was just a field. Our house was surrounded by miles of fields. That was like where we were. So we came to the side of the community where we had a movie theater

and a big supermarket store, and there was was a lot more to do for us, and she could express her identity more. So to suddenly be thrown into this sort of hardscrabble preacher's wife life, they weren't test driving fancy new cars every day, was difficult for her. Yeah. Were you close to both of your parents around this time?

Yeah, I mean, I was much closer to my mother, which is a cliche that conversion therapists used against us. But my dad, when we were younger, we had a very close relationship. And I think it's really just toxic masculinity that drives, you know, sons and fathers away from each other in that culture sometimes. Because regardless of whether or not I was gay, you know, there was just this macho attitude that I didn't agree with and didn't like. I loved my father, and I think his macho-ness comes naturally. But there's one kind of macho that's inclusive of other people's identities, and there's the other kind that's not as solid and is scared of any other expression of masculinity. And I think that that's the strain that my dad grew up in,

which is like, you don't read poetry because it's for sissies. You don't do this because it's for sissies. And my dad has changed his opinion on all of that because I've introduced him to a lot of great poetry actually. And ironically, like his first book of poetry that I gave him was Walt Whitman. And I was like, this is the gayest book I could give my dad. And he just doesn't even realize it. Yeah. I mean, that's like beyond, it's like pansexual. You know, Walt Whitman just wanted to have sex with everyone. I mean, is that because your dad grew up in a culture where that was the expectation? Yeah.

Well, his father was very violent. My family still gets mad at me for telling these stories, but I think it's important to show these cycles of abuse. My grandfather was, he would get very drunk and he would, there was one story where he tied up my grandmother and beat her in front of everyone and made my dad watch. And that's just sick. You know, like there's some real sickness going on there. And so my dad grew up in this real toxic environment and he was very determined to never lay a hand on his child, you know, in a negative way or do anything that would hurt him. But, you know, I think he never thought of conversion therapy as torture. So he never hit me. My dad was actually very loving, but he grew up in this world where like you had to act a certain way. And he was a mechanic before he became the head of the cotton gin. And his dad treated him like dirt. I mean,

he would basically say to his customers, like, look how hard my son works. And if, if dad would do something incorrect with a car or like, or, or, you know, mess something up, he would get berated in front of all the customers. And so, you know, I think that this part of the story doesn't get reported out enough, which is that in order to break, like the amount of energy that's required to break out of a cycle of energy that's required to break out of a cycle of abuses is insane. You know, most people couldn't do it, especially that level of abuse. So the fact that my dad never resorted to that in any of his fear of my sexuality or his anger at my reaction to everything, he never resorted to any violence. And I think that's actually

very commendable and a lot of people don't get that because they're looking at it from such an outside perspective they can't imagine what it's like to grow up in those towns with that attitude that my dad just becomes a straight-up villain and he's not actually you know he he broke out of that system and he's trying and that's incredibly difficult to do and i would challenge anyone to try to overcome that kind of you know cyclical abuse yeah i mean it's it's to try to overcome that kind of, you know, cyclical abuse. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, there's so much wrapped up in that, you know, there's so much identity, there's so much acceptance, there's so much, it's, it's complicated. It's not this really clean

thing where you can just like pass a judgment, like good, evil. I know. And that's one of the bad things about, you know, a film version is like my book, I feel had that complexity. I thinksell crowe brings it to the performance because he actually met my dad and spent a lot of time with him but you're just never going to capture like the complete complexity of that even in book form but i tried you know i tried to explain his whole life so and i actually want to circle back to that because i'm really fascinated about how you experience that let's fill in some steps along the way so you so you're in this new town and you're hitting your late teen years.

Your dad is moving into this world of becoming a full-time preacher and everything matters, not just his behavior, but the family's behavior and your behavior. And as you shared, you're starting to realize at a pretty young age also, you're gay. Yeah. Well, at that point I'd lived, even though I guess you would say that puberty brought me to a greater understanding of that. From third grade on, I'd always known that there was something different about me, that the affection that I felt for other boys and even my teachers at the time, it was not like within the normal quote unquote normal range of expression that a man could have for another man. So I knew that. So I'd sort of lived with that secret, but thought, okay,

you know, it's just, it's just another secret that I have. You know, when you grow up in that fundamentalist area, you, you, you keep a lot of secrets, you know, because if you've ever thought a bad thing or, or done anything, you know, that that's labeled as bad, which there are a lot of bad things to do, you learn how to keep secrets really well. And so I just thought it was another secret. Homosexuality was explained to me through sort of the story of Matthew Shepard, who was murdered and he was left for dead after coming on to another guy. And the church really went with that and said, look at what happens whenever you live an openly gay lifestyle. So that was one part of the story I was hearing. The other part of the story I was hearing was, okay, well, if you have what they

called same-sex attraction, they never called it homosexuality. They called it same-sex attraction because it's something that you experience, not something that you are. It's a very strong distinction that they make. The behavior not an idea today. Which means the behavior can be changed. So they would say, if you've ever experienced same-sex attraction, just think of it this way. It's like those moments when you get really mad and you want to choke someone or punch someone. You don't do it, do you? When you have that idea explained to you with such authority, you just think, okay, well, it's just another set of things that I experienced. The problem was hitting puberty and realizing that I wanted love. That's something that, love is a very powerful experience. You want it, you can begin to feel

the inklings of it with your crushes, but it's like you know that whatever that experience is going to be, is going to be stronger, it's going to override whatever the church is telling you. So that scared me because I didn't want to lose my relationship with God. And I certainly didn't think it was worth expressing my identity if I was going to lose my family as well. So you just start keeping secrets. Yeah, you become very good at keeping secrets. It's something that I find we don't talk about a lot in the queer community, which is that we learned how to keep secrets so well

that it's really hard to have real intimacy with people. Because often, you know, you're like, you resort to being like, well, you don't need to know that information. You know, I'm going to protect myself. Nobody needs to know what I feel about this. And I think we become very defensive often. And we have to work through that if we grew up in these environments. Yeah, I learned very well how to keep secrets. And I kept it for myself until I was outed. I went to college for one semester. My roommate at the time assaulted me. And I don't know how much you want me to go into detail on this because it's kind of disturbing, but he assaulted me. He had assaulted another boy and I found this out. I told a few people and then he informed my parents that I was gay

because I told him in a brief moment of trust that I was having these feelings, the same sex attraction. So he called my mom and he said, well, he's very gay and he has an openly gay relationship

with another boy, which was not true. What made him do that? Because he knew that I was going to tell that he had assaulted me. It was like a preemptive strike. Yeah.

It's a tactic that, I mean, a lot of abusers use, I've since learned, where they bargain, you know, basically like whatever information they have on you, they try to like use it. So it's like get ahead of me. A complete explosion,

where even just the rumor of it, and I feel like he also knew that I was a very honest person. You know, I knew how to keep secrets, but when something is directly asked of me, it's hard for me to lie. So my mom came to pick me up. She'd heard about this from him, that I was gay. Was your mom alone or with your dad? She came with a friend. Her name was Jan, and she was like a longtime friend of my mom's.

My mom was too afraid to go to the college by herself. What was he afraid of? I think that my mom was afraid that she would encounter something she didn't want to see, like that I was holding hands with a boy. I don't know what she thought, but it was like the idea. She had no idea that I was gay because I'd had a girlfriend, a long-term girlfriend in high school for two years. And she was just like, the idea that I could be gay was the most terrifying thing for them.

Had she told your dad before she left? She said, I'm going to talk to Garrett. I'm going to pick him up and bring him back home. And we're going to talk about this at home. So she came to pick me up. And I immediately lied. I was like, oh, he's a complete liar. I'm not gay.

But I did say he molested a 14-year-old boy. I didn't tell her about my own assault that he'd done to me, but I said, you know, he's a liar. He molested this kid. He's a sick person. And she said, well, I think, you know, since you're his roommate, you should definitely come home for the night to be safe. So I came home. Dad took me in his bedroom and said, is any of this true? And I said, no, none of it's true.

And he said, do you swear to God that none of it's true? And I said, no, none of it's true. And he said, do you swear to God that none of it's true? And I was like, I can't do that. Because I still very much believed that that would be a really intense sin to do that, like a bigger sin than hiding who I was. And so I said, no, I can't swear to God I am gay. And he said, well, we need to talk to some people in the church and find out what we need to do. So he contacted Bellevue Baptist Church in Memphis, well, we need to talk to some people in the church and find out what we need to do. So he contacted Bellevue Baptist Church in Memphis, Tennessee, which is like a big mega church, very well respected. And they suggested that he send me to a place called Love in Action, which was a conversion therapy facility designed to turn LGBTQ people straight, but also love in action, dealt in other cures as well, which were people dealing with bestiality and pedophilia. I don't know why they put us all

together. They lumped us all together under the idea that any sin of this nature is the same. There were always jokes when I was growing up where it's like oh well if you let the gays marry then they'll they'll marry a cow or a horse you know and and that was sort of the I know it sounds absurd to hear but but it's the kind of logic that had been in the water the whole time when I was growing up as absurd as it sounds now it was just a sort of continuation of that logic that I'd grown up with so my dad, you need to go to this or you're not going to be a part of this family. And I won't continue paying for college and you're going to have to make it on your own. And I had no idea what to do. I had no credit to my name. I didn't even know how to, I didn't know how to take out a loan or do anything like that. What did you think of just

the idea of what it was? Conversion therapy. Yeah. Or, or, or, I mean, did you even sort of like look at it as this is convergence therapy like what was your understanding of what this would actually be at that moment in time i was i'd never heard of it you know first of all i i just thought i've got to do whatever i can to to not like destroy my life i had no queer family to go to like The college that I was at had no, this sounds crazy, but it was 550 students. It was a small place. It was a liberal arts college and no one was out. Maybe one, yeah, one person was out. And it was just, there was no sense of what my life would look like. And I happened upon things like Queer as Folk, which is that TV show that like showed, you know, everyone partying in clubs all the time. But I didn't see that as my life. I didn't know how that would happen. We didn't have like a version of queerness that could easily fit with the version of my life that had existed so far. You know, there was no like Love, Simon to just be like, oh, it's just normal. It was either people partying in clubs or someone dying of AIDS. It was like, those are the two big, you know, ideas of homosexuality that I'd been exposed to at that point. And it was also, I mean, this idea of, okay, so this is a place you go. It was, I guess,

steeped in this idea of this is a behavior. This is an impulse that can be trained out of you. Was that your lived sense before you, right? Like, did you in any way, shape or form believe like, well, maybe, maybe it could work. Maybe I could just go back to like the way things code are, you know, like we're expected to be. Yeah. I mean, I used to get a thrill when, when a girl, like after my first girlfriend, Chloe in the book and I broke up, I would still get a thrill when I would be like, oh, this girl likes me. Like we can make this work. But I don't know. I mean, it was partially like, I knew that the crushes that I had on guys were so much stronger than any sort of sweet feeling that I got around a girl. And it was sort of like, well, I can't experience that because if I do, then there's no going back.

You're just off on that track suddenly. And it's this idea of purity. I think there's a lot of purity culture stuff tied into the ex-gay movement, which is the idea that once you're no longer pure, you can't truly be restored. I feel like there was also a lot of really harmful ideas of male sexuality tied into this, which is like, if you're a you're a bottom or, or, you know, if you have been defiled by another man or whatever, then you can't go back from that. So I think there were just so many different ideas that were floating around that were all harmful. All of them sort of pointed to the direction of, you should never go there. You should never try anything out. Because once you, once you've crossed that, right, like that's it for life.

Yeah. They had no understanding of like sexual fluidity, but the culture didn't either at the time. Well, I mean, honestly, I mean, that whole, that's such a recent public conversation, at least. I mean, I think privately, of course people have been like talking about it, exploring it and living it for forever.

Yet like a public conversation where it's actually a conversation and not just an edict and a fight. Yeah. The kids are all fluid now. Yeah mean it is really interesting to see and to see people struggle with it and also you know open to those conversations not that i think it's happening on any level that you know it can that would be helpful to a lot of people but so your dad basically presents this option to you it's basically it's this or you don't have a family anymore yeah i was shocked honestly i, honestly. I mean, I knew how negative his attitude towards LGBT people had been publicly.

But I was still shocked to hear it because I'd never had a moment where love was conditional between us. And I remember I was so mad at him because it felt so entirely unfair. If it was truly something that could be fixed or something that people struggle with, it felt so unnecessary to say either do this or you're never part of the family again. I feel like there was a different way to phrase that, which would have probably ended up worse for me. Because if you'd done a soft sell and said, hey, I realize you're struggling with this. Let's try to do this. I feel like if you'd done that, I would have been like, well, let's try something else now. That didn't work. But instead, it was such an ultimatum that I got mad and really tried to do it. And when it didn't work,

I was like, well, screw this. This is going to ruin my life. And I'm not willing to, like within the space of six months of one-on-one therapy and then two weeks of intensive therapy at the facility, I knew that doing any more of that wasn't ever going to be worth it. Not even if I got to keep my family. Because I wouldn't be somebody to love at that point. I would just be a bitter, horrible person. So you end up going. Do you want to know the whole process? Yeah. So it's a little strange. They sent an application that was like 15 pages. It was a harder application

to fill out than a college application. And they made you have three letters of recommendation. The idea for the letters of recommendation was that they wanted to vouch for the fact that you were a good Christian. Because obviously, if you weren't, you could be giving a tell-all expose, which I did eventually anyway. We filled out this application, and you had to list any sexual thoughts that you have had recently. You had to list any sexual experiences. You had to talk about why you were, or like how you were born again, because they needed to see proof of that. You had to say whether or not you dabbled in any of the following. And it was like a crazy list of things like Ouija board or yoga. They believed all of that stuff was evil and from Satan and too secular. So I filled that out.

And I guess it was two months later, I accepted but with the condition that I need to go see a therapist one-on-one until the time came for me to enter Love in Action so they had like this therapist that they farmed people out to I believe he was a real therapist so would you go back home then until and you would so so on weekends I would go see the therapist in Memphis and then back in college and the therapist would basically. Were you back in college then? And the therapist would basically ask me to talk about my sexual fantasies. And then he would shame me and say, here's some Bible verses you need to read to get over this. And he was very, in many ways, he was worse than what I encountered at Love in Action.

Because Love in Action, as people now pretty famously know, was often run by people who were gay and they were repressed. But this therapist was truly disgusted by me. And he would be like, tell me everything. And you could just see his face, like it just disturbed him and made him sick. And so to see that kind of disgust on someone's face was something that you didn't really feel that disgusted with. It was pretty harmful. So you're doing this one week in a month for the first six months, and then going back to college, just living your life. It was a complete, I didn't tell anyone. Right. I mean, it's like, this is... Yeah, it was such like compartmentalization. And I was studying, you know, like great literature, stuff that was complicated and beautiful. And for the first time I was encountering like Darwin because my high school wouldn't even teach evolution studying great literature, stuff that was complicated and beautiful. And for the first

time, I was encountering Darwin because my high school wouldn't even teach evolution because they thought it was evil. It was a public school that did that. And I'm encountering all these great ideas that are challenging what I'm hearing in these therapy sessions. And thank God for that. I fell in love with literature at the same time that I was falling out of love with myself. And it was such an odd experience that I think very few people can understand unless they're steeped in that culture, how you can have two minds at one time, one that's incredibly complex and can have sophisticated conversations. I mean, early on, this was the same year that I won the freshman writing award in my college and was celebrated as someone who was a critical thinker.

And I won that award by talking about feminism and talking about the kind of background that I grew up in that didn't believe women should be empowered. And that was my essay at the same time that I was going to conversion therapy. So it's like you're forward-facing, talking about and writing about these progressive ideas. And this is happening. When you would go away for the weekend, would you just tell friends you were going home or something? Yeah, I would just be like,

I'm going home. I need to see my parents. I didn't tell anyone. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th.

Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot if we need them. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. So what happens then? So this goes on for about six months until it's finally time for the residential part.

Yeah, that's the big moment when you can really be changed. But what I didn't know is that the two-week trial session was really designed to eventually put you into a three-month session and then take you out of school and stay out for at least a year, usually two. And often, people would move up through the therapy sessions to become counselors. It was a scheme that was being used. The prices that were being quoted to my mom of the year-long stay were the exact same numbers as my tuition, which is not a coincidence. It was like off a few digits, but mom later could see how they were trying to see how much money we had so that they could figure out how much they should charge. So yeah, I went to, over the summer, a two-week session. That two-week session was geared towards, we would go from 8 a.m. until 5 p.m. We weren't yet in a residential

program. So I was staying with my mom in a hotel nearby, but we were told what the safe spaces were around us. So we couldn't go to any secular places. So we couldn't go to a movie theater. We couldn't go to a mall because they also thought we would all just suddenly go cruising in a mall and have sex with somebody. They had dirtier minds than you know any of the rest of us did and we couldn't go to like even a bookstore that was like we had to go to christian bookstores so as you're so you're living in a hotel with your mom basically like couldn't leave your job from eight to five and then afterwards we'd do homework non-stop what so your mom is to a certain extent going through this with you in a really intensive way well

what was what were the conversations like with your mom when you're living in the hotel together? We did not talk about therapy. That was the thing that was so strange about it. I mean, I was so embarrassed about what was happening. And it was embarrassing to me to talk to mom about sex anyway. You don't really want to have those conversations. And I think I was even more embarrassed because I hadn't, and I was also mad because I hadn't had any real sex. I'd been raped, but I hadn't had a sexual experience that was, you know, a nice one. And yet all of these other people had had it. And so they at least had that before they had to like, you know, change. And I just thought, oh, if I'd waited a little longer, or if I just had sex before I came here, then I could like have this experience and then renounce it. But it was also, it was embarrassing to me that I was there for something

that I hadn't done. I hadn't acted on it. I hadn't done anything. So, you know, we didn't talk about it. I didn't know what mom was going through and she wasn't telling me that she would go, but I later found out, you know, she would, she went to a tanning bed, like a tanning salon for like the first three or four days because she just didn't know what to do. And she's like, I'll go tan and then I'll go back, you know, I'll go shopping or do something while I'm in Memphis. And after about three days of that, she would just drop me off at the facility. She would go back to the hotel and she would lie under the comforter with her clothes still on and just stay there. She would pull the comforter all the way over her and just stay there and cry until five o'clock came to pick

me up and she would fix her makeup and like pretend like nothing had ever happened. And she was going through intense depression because she was like, I'm a preacher's wife. This doesn't seem to be working. Garrett is getting sadder. I've been hearing these suicide rumors. You know, am I doing the right thing? Am I doing the right thing for the right person? You know, like my husband tells me to do this. I've always listened to my husband. The community believes this is right.

My son is wasting away in front of me and our relationship is being destroyed because conversion therapy is saying it's their fault for what's happening. And like, I can't imagine after years of like having this sort of perfect family and, and, you know, she lost her first kid because of complications in her pregnancy. You know, she, they told her she couldn't have a kid and she had one anyway, and it was very dangerous. And, you know, I have this sort of miracle happen and then to see your family breaking apart, I think that was, must have been incredibly difficult. For me, you know, what I was starting to realize is that I

didn't have anything to lose because, you know, I was going to lose whoever I was or I was going to lose my family. And I was willing to lose my family now. It was slowly dawning on me that I could see these men who were counselors, who had been openly gay at one point, renounced it. In John Smith's case, he's the man who ran the whole camp. He had been openly gay, then he became ex-gay, then he was openly gay again. I mean, he went back and forth and it was so confusing. And then he was so bitter and he seemed like such a lesser person than he could have been. And I was seeing this man in front of me telling me, I'm so happy now I'm

married to this woman, but it's not working. I could see that he's not truly happy. And what's the benefit of having this family if you have killed yourself emotionally? But it was a hard thing to get to. I mean, we were being told every day, we had to do these things called moral inventories where we once again had to tell all of our sexual fantasies. We were sitting with people dealing with pedophilia who were sharing their sexual fantasies with us. And that's disturbing. You know, I was hearing a girl who had been caught with her dog. You know, it was like a stupid moment that any kid might do in experimentation, but our parents assumed that it was this problem that had to like, you know, be cured through biblical study. Well, she probably just had a weird moment with her dog. I don't know.

But like, we're sitting there hearing that we are just like that and that's who we are. And I'd been raped by somebody who was a pedophile. He told me that he'd raped a 14-year-old boy after he raped me. So in my mind, I'm thinking, well, I don't want to be a pedophile. I don't want that. If that's what being gay is, then I don't want it. But at the same time, realizing that no one was happy that was there. There was no spirit of generosity. There was no kindness there. We were told to report each other's behavior. If someone stood the wrong way, we had to report it. If I was too effeminate suddenly or my voice went up in octave, people had to report that. So we were being incredibly unkind to each other in this sort of military-like setting, and it just wasn't working.

So how does this end up? I mean, you go through the first two weeks. Yeah. And then you also, as you mentioned, you start to become aware of the fact that it's a bit of a sales process, there's actually like there there's the next level and the next level and that which can go on for years but but you're not down for that it terrified me because you know like i said i had this other life that was growing where i was learning what good literature was and i was learning what beauty was and i couldn't imagine being kicked out of that world forever because if you if you take a year off and you're

like still in conversion therapy there's no way like the scholarship that i did have was not going imagine being kicked out of that world forever. Because if you take a year off and you're still in conversion therapy, there's no way. The scholarship that I did have was not going to come back to me. Then how are we going to afford it? Especially after a year of paying for conversion therapy. I just knew it was going to be like, I'll never go back to that school again. I'll probably go to some Bible school. And that wasn't good enough for me. No. When you were in college and you were studying literature and all these other great writers and ideas, were some of those ideas serving as sort of foundations to make you question some of the teachings that you had grown up with? Definitely. Oddly enough, you wouldn't

think that like a queer liberation would come from this text, but I was reading the Odyssey in our Western lit class, and there was this concept that the teacher kept talking about. And he said, why do you think Odysseus, every time that he ends up in some strange land, why do you think he's able to go to people's door and they feed him and clothe him? And we hadn't questioned it. It was just part of the plot. And it was like, it's because there was a spirit of hospitality that existed in the culture that like you do that because next time you're on a journey, you need somebody else to open their door to you. And that felt very biblical. It felt like the good part of the Bible. And so first of all, I was like, wow, that idea has been around for a while.

And then, you know, you explore more and you see that there are other texts that talk about that from an earlier period of time than the Bible. And then also, I started reading what I later discovered was a pretty seminal queer text, which is the picture of Dorian Gray. And I didn't know anything about Oscar Wilde. But I remember reading the first section where they're in the garden and talking about beauty and male beauty. And it didn't say anything about anybody being gay or anything, but there was just a queer sensibility that I picked up on. And I was like, this is a classic and people love it. And he's just openly declaring male beauty to be a thing. And then,

of course, you tie that with the Greeks and you're like, oh, okay, I get it. There's this whole other history here. And it was one that had never been taught to me. And so I was beginning to see that there were other deeper and more nuanced cultural strands that existed that had been hidden away from me on purpose. And I was a little bit mad. So yeah, that did sort of provide the foundation for saying, hey, maybe it's not in my college, maybe there aren't many out people, But there's a culture that has cultivated texts, at least, that show that people like me have existed before. And lived well. And lived well until Oscar Wilde was in prison. Right, not always, but openly.

So where do you go from there? You hit this moment where you're like, it's kind of like, do I take this road or do I take this road? I mean, you kind of have to choose. Yeah. And I think that it was the counselors who made me choose because I was basically, I was doing an exercise called the lie chair and we had to sit across from an empty chair and imagine our fathers in it. Because another cliche was that you must hate your father if you're gay. And I knew that I didn't hate my dad, that I had a complicated relationship with my dad suddenly, but that I didn't hate him. And from what I'd learned from literature, I knew that you don't reduce characters or people in your life to these cardboard cutouts.

Complexity is important. And I was starting to value that. So when You know, the complexity is important. And I was starting to value that. So when they said, you know, you need to yell at him because you hate him, I said, I don't hate my father and I don't feel this way. And the counselor at the time, John Smith, he said, you do, you're just hiding it. And we can see that you do have this. And you've been resisting therapy this whole time.

And I said, you actually don't know what's in my mind. I've been trying very hard. And they're like, no, you haven't been trying and you hate your father. And I said, you're not going to tell me what to think. Like, you obviously don't know who I am. And, you know, they started yelling at me and it was very cheap to me. It felt theatrical and cheap. And it felt like the worst parts of the church, you know, whenever the preacher would like

yell about fire and brimstone and you're like, this is cheap. This is not a way to get people to worship Christ or be good people. You don't yell at them. You don't tell them that they're wrong. Like you appeal to them. You appeal to their best sides. You don't appeal to their worst. And so, you know, I was like, I got to leave. And so I walked out. It was in this auditorium with everyone watching. And I walked out. And they said, well, you can't leave. And I said, well, I'm going to. So I went directly to the receptionist who had all of my belongings.

They take all your belongings when you enter the facility because they want to make sure you don't have any false images, as they call it, like anything that will distract you from time with the Lord. And I said, I want all my belongings back. And the receptionist said, you can't. And I said, it want all my belongings back. And the receptionist said, you can't. And I said, it's an emergency. You have to give it to me. I have to be able to call my mother. So they gave me my cell phone back and I called mom immediately. And I said, you need to pick me up. And she came, you know, without putting makeup on, which is a big thing for mom.

And she pulled up and immediately the counselors came to the side of the car and said, he needs to stay here for at least three more months. It's not working. He's very, very gay. It's a bad case. And she smelled something up because she could see that, like, she heard the despair in my voice and she saw what I looked like coming out of there, which I was pissed. And I was like, this is, but what are your qualifications? Like, why, why had I never asked that? Well, the answer was patriarchy. But, you know, she's sitting there and John Smith says, well, I don't have a counseling license, but, you know, I've been through a few workshops on counseling. And he said, and that guy over there is a marriage counselor. And my mom was like, what are you, what are y'all doing trying to eradicate gayness? And of course,

she quickly went from there to realizing there was no degree for curing homosexuality. And so she drove us out of there. At one point, she pulled on the side of the road because I was acting crazy and I was trying to rip

the airbag cover off. I was just losing them. I was so mad. And she pulled over and she said, are you going to kill yourself? And I said, yes. I don't know if I felt like I was actually going to kill myself, but I knew it was the answer that would get me home. I'd been suicidal, you know, and, you know, couple all of this with like being a rape victim and not understanding that. And so she said, well, I'm going to take you home. And I said, well, what about dad? And she said, well, I'm sure he'll realize that it's better to have a living gay son than a dead gay son because the gay part is not going to change. And I was like, okay.

So we go back home and dad asked, you know, did it work? And, you know, it was a day early. We're like, no, obviously it didn't work. We're back early. And we didn't talk about it for like 10 years after that. It was like, shut it down, never talk about it again. He paid for college. He never knew that I was openly gay after that. I don't think, or if he did, he never questioned it. It was two hours away. so there was enough distance to where, you know, he probably heard rumors, but he didn't see it directly. Yeah, 10 years passed. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised.

The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him! We need him!

Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes the apple watch series 10 available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum compared to previous generations iphone 10s or later required charge time and actual results will vary that was a moment where you decided like this is who I am and this is how I will live and whatever happens, happens. Yeah. And it felt like, like at first it felt really easy because I was like, well, I went to the edge of the cliff. I looked down and I decided I'm not jumping. So yeah, now I'm myself. And it did, it was, I think it was very freeing. It was a very nice time for me because I was really into art and I didn't feel guilt about liking what I liked or thinking about Darwin. And I had several boyfriends and it was nice. But then as these things go, see another part of the world and understand the world on a more global level. Not necessarily the smartest idea to go to an

anti-LGBT country, but I signed up for Peace Corps and said, put me anywhere, I don't care. And I got this letter from Peace Corps that said, okay, we know from your application that you're openly gay because they'd asked questions like that. It may be wise to not say that to everyone whenever you enter Ukraine as a teacher. And I was like, I don't know. I don't know if I want to go back in the closet. But actually, it was very eye-opening to be like, okay, here's how the rest of the world has treated the subject. Ukraine just pretended like it didn't exist. It just totally didn't. There was no... Even if I said to someone, I'm gay, they'd be like, yeah, that's funny.

Like that's not a real thing. So I did that. And during that time, I had a lot of time to think for myself. I lived by myself in a country that didn't speak my language at all. So I learned Ukrainian. I spoke only Ukrainian all day except for when I was teaching in English. And that was intense. And during those years when I was sort of reading by myself in that apartment, that's when I started to realize I hadn't dealt

with everything because I just sort of, I would have flashbacks about that time and I would get angry again. And I felt like I'd wasted so much of my life, you know, thinking in such a ridiculous way. And then that sort of brought me to a dark place for a little while. And yeah, I was frustrated because I felt like everyone else had this head start in terms of their education and I had so much to learn. And I didn't recognize that I'd gotten a very powerful education in life. And I mean, I wish I hadn't had to have it, but at the same time, I felt like, okay, once I figured out I have a unique perspective on the world and this isn't something that I should be ashamed of, I was able to get past all of that. So as you're processing that for your own sake, you're also a writer. At some point, you you're like what should i do with this like can i actually was the idea behind saying okay so let me actually write a memoir write a book about this was that more about like i need to write this i need to tell the story make public or was it i need to process myself or was it just some blend or did you even know while you were doing well i i had

no desire to write about this ever yeah i'd written like really crappy first drafts of novels that sort of tried to deal with these issues, but not directly. I never wanted to put myself out there because I'm not actually someone who likes to be in public or to explain my life to people. But now, here I am. But I remember I was sitting... I loved writing.

I knew I wanted to be a writer since I was nine years old. And people were like, yeah, right. I remember I was taking this nonfiction class. And I said, like, we were going around in a circle saying what our subjects would be, like what we would write about. And I had no idea. And what came out of my mouth was conversion therapy. And people were like, what is that? Like, I have no idea.

And so I started to explain it. And everyone in the class is a class of like really intelligent people, like started leaning forward into my discussion. And they were like, oh my God, you have to tell this. And I was like, no way. I'm just going to write an essay. And like, well, and so I wrote an essay. It was like, you know, I don't necessarily believe in fate or anything anymore, but there was definitely a strange synchronicity that happened where I wrote the essay. I went to this writer's conference, AWP, which is like the biggest writer's conference in the country. And I was there and I was having drinks with some writers.

And this woman who sat next to me, I didn't know who she was, but she said, what are you writing? And I said, oh, conversion therapy story. And she said, well, I write about fundamentalism for the New York Times. And it was Maude Newton who does a lot of that kind of stuff. And she was like, I want you to be my agent. And these stories never work out this way, but I met her agent immediately. They were like, send me pages. So I sent them, the agent sent me a contract really quickly and said, I want to be your agent for life. I think this is really powerful stuff and your writing is powerful. And I was powerful. And she turned out to be one of the most high-powered agents in New York. And I was reluctant, but I was also like,

I want to be a writer. This is fun. So it's almost like you have to choose between, I never want this story to be public, but I desperately want this path as the work I do in the world. And I'm getting an opportunity that nobody gets. I know. But then, you know, I wrote it. I didn't realize what it would take to write it. You know, I thought, okay, I'll just give like a cursory account of this time and like look into research. I mean, the first proposal was like,

I'm going to interview a bunch of people and do their stories. Then they quickly realized- It's like a survey of conversion therapy in America. And I'll like use my story a little bit. And then like, as I kept writing my story story and trying to mix in other people's, they were like, but your story is really interesting. And that's how editors secretly get you to do what they want.

They're like, this is actually really beautiful writing when you talk about your father. Give me a little bit more. So I did that. And I was not planning to be, you know, like an activist or anything from that, but very quickly, and the book wasn't selling, but the emails that I would get from people who'd read it in libraries and things like that, they were like super personal. You don't usually get that kind of response from a book unless something's happening with it. So you write the book, the book comes out, but it's not like an instant bestseller.

It was like not a bestseller at all. It was like low down. You know, I had a few readings, but that was about it. And the responses were so personal. And I would forward them to my publisher and people would be crying. They'd be like, I can't believe people are telling you these stories. And it's an epidemic. And of course, at this point, we didn't know what the numbers were for people who survived conversion therapy.

We just found out this January. So we didn't know there were 700,000 people alone in America who'd been through conversion therapy. That's a big readership of people who, or at least like people who really want that story out there. And so suddenly it became this sort of, you know, within the whisper network of survivors and like in these private Facebook groups, people were talking about this book and that's the best way to actually do a book. You know,

I didn't know that you get people excited on like a personal level and then that spreads out. So when that happened and when I got all of those emails, it was like, oh my God, this is such a huge thing. And what have I done? What have I opened up? And then, so I felt that, but I was still like, I'm not an activist. I don't want to put myself out there. But then the Trump election happened. And Mike Pence is a huge enemy of LGBTQ people. He's been in support of conversion therapy to a big degree. Tony Perkins, who is on the Family Research Council and very close to the Trump administration, was getting a lot of attention. And this was before the election actually happened.

But the Republican platform that came out was, even though it was kind of a little bit vague, it was in favor of conversion therapy. And I wrote about this for Time and Vice and all that stuff. So slowly, I realized I had to. So you become like, not just the writer behind the curtain, who just is pursuing this craft, but also a public voice. That was tough. It's still tough. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. You're just sitting across from me right now. I'm sensing you're an introvert. Big time. And like introverts can sense it too. Same way. And it's like, I love being able to create something that goes out into the world and has a ripple. And at the same time, I really like just hanging out in the world and then it has a ripple. And at the same time,

I really like just hanging out in the cave and creating stuff. But there are these moments where sometimes like there's something happening that's bigger than you, that calls you, but that's gotta be just on a personal level that has to be really just challenging, managing your life, managing your energy. And also that level of being public now,

if when you moved from a hundred people town into this slightly bigger town and all of a sudden all eyes are on the family, how does that now... If you have a book and it's out there and a couple of people read it, it kind of goes away. People don't care about books, right? It'll be over soon enough. But when you have a book and then grassroots thing makes it this huge thing, and then you become an advocate.

And then more recently, as we sit here i think you know then there's a movie that comes of it with giant a-list movie stars and you're involved behind the scenes you know you become to a certain extent a public person like even as you say that i'm like terrified i'm like i know is that the objective truth yeah and but how like how does that how are you living that how does it how do you process that and how has it affected your relationship with your parents? Oh, yeah. I mean, it's not great that Russell Crowe flew to my dad's church to do research.

And that caused a whole stir in that town. It's a really small town. So when Russell Crowe shows up randomly to a church, it's a big deal. So that didn't help with our family strain that's going on. Some people, you know, it's interesting, like I've received no, other than like a few cousins, I've received no note of congratulations or like, I can't imagine what you're going through or I'm so sorry conversion therapy happened to you from any of my family members. None. It's been complete silence. So

that's been a little bit shocking and sad to me. But of course, they all wanted to go to the premiere. But then my mom and dad, we're a really close-knit family and nothing's going to get in the way of that. And it's very interesting to watch dad. Dad has become someone who no longer believes that people can change their sexuality. He no longer believes that conversion therapy works and he thinks it's evil. He does, however, think he should be celibate. And that's something that I continue to argue with him about. He has made progress. And I think him taking those steps, and he said things like, I'm so proud of you. He'll say, I'm not talking to you as a preacher right now. I'm talking to you as your father. I'm proud of your success, and I'm glad that you have a life that's stable. And he's able to say that.

And for a lot of people, and I understand this, a lot of people in the queer community, they're like, just drop him, cut him off. He's toxic. And I get where the attitude comes from. I also don't think it's particularly helpful when no one's in my,

they're not in my family, so they don't know what's going on. And I also, I don't like that cancel culture. Like I find it very annoying. Well, it's almost like you sat in a room, you know, 10, 12, 13 years ago now where somebody else tried to force you to say that you hated your dad.

Exactly. And it's sort of like, it's a weird, false thing. Isn't that funny? Yeah. I always think about that whenever I'm in really radically queer spaces and people tell me that and i'm like okay well that's your opinion but also maybe like think about how that could be a little bit triggering for you to say that to

somebody who is a grown-ass adult you know 33 i think i know what i'm talking about by now and also i mean like family is complicated yeah you, and it's like to the extent that you can find that you can, you can still preserve a sense of love and respect for each other and just allow the space for over the time conversation to evolve. You know, maybe it's not as fast as other people think it should be made. It's not as direct. Maybe it's not. But like you said, like at the end of the day, there's only one person living your life. Yeah, exactly. And I think also, I tend to be

someone who thinks very long-term because I had to for so long. I had to think like, how do I get out of this? How do I imagine a future that's possible for me without many guideposts around me in my immediate life to do that. So when I see sort of the cancel culture that's on Twitter, for example, it frustrates me a bit because I'm like, can't we think long-term strategy for a second here? You know, I don't think canceling people is, I mean, of course, there are crazy people that you have to just block and mute and all that stuff. But I think for the most part, there's just not a dialogue that's able to take place within the culture right now where we're saying, how do we educate people who've really messed up? And I understand we only have so much

attention and so much compassion to give, but I feel like I'm positioned as someone who could easily hate my past self. I was a fundamentalist Baptist who probably had really harmful ideas, and I changed. And so for me, I feel like I have to have compassion for other people who could potentially change, who are actually curious about what the other side has to say. How do you feel about faith right now? It's messy. I have a warm feeling about faiths that are affirming, LGBT affirming, because I've been in those spaces and given readings there, and I'm actually about to give a reading at, I think, St. Paul's in Chelsea,

the Episcopal Church. So I have a really soft spot in my heart for them. I still don't really like organized religion. It's just something that I probably won't like given my background, but I still pray. And I don't pray for anything to change because that doesn't work. But I prayed mostly just to be grateful for things. Because I think even though it's kind of, you can go down the path of being like, well, I'm grateful for what I have, but other people are starving. So what's the point of even being grateful when the world is screwed? But I think it's really important to still do that act of

saying, okay, I'm happy that I have these things because on a personal level, it makes you not be a jerk about what you do have. know you can get very acclimated to the privilege that is bestowed upon you very quickly and i know this just from like being in fancy hotel rooms for the past two months i'm like this isn't as good as the last fancy hotel room with the bathtub in the middle of the room that was cool you know there's no phone next to my jacuzzi or tv on the ceiling yeah like Four Seasons isn't as good as the last Four Seasons. So that can become like, I mean, I think you can become a real jerk in that way. And so I think it's important to list off the basic necessities and the privileges on top of that that you've been given just to have perspective.

So it sounds like you still do have a sense of God or however you may define it. I don't think it's like an old white dude on a throne anymore. My mom is interesting too. She's still very much a Christian and she doesn't think she's Baptist, but she still goes to a Baptist church. And there's this really funny story that recently, well, not recently, but a couple of years ago happened when she was sort of changing her ideas of what, of who Jesus was and like what it meant and like looking at history. It was at Christmas and my family had passed around this like little doll of like the baby Jesus. And it was like a white Jesus. And my mom got the doll and she goes, Jesus wasn't white. Like, what are you doing? And like everyone in the family was like, you're crazy.

What's wrong with you? And she's like, no, historically Jesus was not white. And so my mom is like also shifted in her understanding of, of what her faith is. And I think it's, it's sweet to watch that as well. Yeah. So as we sit here today in this conversation, good life project, if I offer out the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? That's a tough one because you don't want to fall into cliche to live a good life well I do think it's important to be honest when you can this is this is my caveat so given our story here I didn't get a chance to come out. I was outed. And I consider that to be a real, like that's what caused me to go into conversion therapy. And I knew who I was. I would

have gotten there naturally, had a state in college long enough. And I think it would have been a smoother transition for me and my family. So I guess my big piece of advice is you can know something about yourself. You can know your truth, but you don't always have to announce it immediately. You can wait for the right moment. You can develop a strategy. I think that there's something that gets lost in the idea of, you know, hashtag living your truth, you know, which is live it, but live it at the right time. There's a way to get safe, to be in a safe environment where you can be yourself. And so I guess that's my key to happiness because I think it's really important in terms of your brain and your soul to do things

on your own terms because I've spent like, you know, the past 15 years dealing with not having come to terms with things on my own terms. Does that make sense? Yeah. Is that too depressing? No, no. I mean, it's like, you know, live your truth in your own way, in your own time. There's such a pressure right now, especially with social media,

to just be the most intense version of whatever you are. And if you're an introvert like me, or if you're someone who doesn't really like to be in the spotlight, don't let that kind of mentality shame you. You can be just as much of a freak or an interesting person as you want to be, but you don't have to air it to the world all the time. It's not something you have to do to be counted as an interesting cultural person. I think that's lost right now. I agree. I think it's a really important point to make also. It's like, there's, you gotta do you on all levels and stepping into that in a way that feels safe.

Yeah. And at no point do you have to advertise something. No. Thank you. Yeah, that was great. Thank you so much for listening. And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes.

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