Good Life Project - Glennon Doyle: On Love, Life, Leading and the Limelight

Episode Date: October 24, 2016

Glennon Doyle Melton is an author, activist, and founder of Momastery.com and Together Rising, a non-profit that has raised close to five million dollars for women and children in crisis.Her brand new book, LOVE WARRIOR is a #1 New York Times Bestseller and the most recent Oprah's Book Club selection.Today, I sit down with Glennon the morning after she's wrapped one of her gathering at the legendary BAM (Brooklyn Academy of Music) in New York City, where she was joined by a multi-denominational collective on-stage, including Alicia Keys who was so moved she couldn't help but belt out an impromptu song before leaving.In this conversation, we dip into her new memoir. But that's more of a jumping off point that leads us into some very different waters, from leading as an introvert, her feelings about faith and how it informs what she's creating to how she's moving into a season of her life where the line between public and private, art and service, love and leading is shifting in profound and intentional ways.We go deep into some provocative territory here, and there are more than a few invitations to reconsider how you move into the world and what you choose to focus on. Agree or not, this is a conversation that'll leave you lifted, challenge your assumptions and also make you think and feel.++++++++++++++++++++++++++Order your copy of Jonathan Fields’ new book, How to Live a Good Life: Soulful Stories, Surprising Science and Practical Wisdom, today! Download the first chapter and invest in your copy now. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm a recovering food and alcohol addict, but I still find myself missing booze in the same twisted way we can miss those who repeatedly beat us and leave us for dead. And I wrote that and I was like, that's exactly right. That's how I feel. Like, that's not something I'm ever allowed to say in real life. Today's guest, Glennon Doyle Melton, is the author of a really fascinating, raw, powerful new memoir called Love Warrior. We dive into the story in that a tiny bit, but truth is, we actually zoom the lens out in this conversation a whole lot more. We go deep into what she's about these days, into who she is, into what she's creating in the world, into how her introverted social nature

interacts with leading essentially a new movement, the construction of almost like a new faith, and how traveling around has changed her. We also really explore how she handles the separation between being fiercely public and transparent, and at the same time, trying to preserve privacy and how that's shifting in a really major way as she thinks about what gets let out and what gets kept completely private over the next few years. A lot of deep conversation, a lot of probably provocative ideas here, and some even controversial ideas. Something that is going to leave you thinking about your assumptions

and about the way you move into the world. Really excited to share this conversation. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-nest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. So what if you could take the wisdom from years of conversations like this, distill it into a single short and sweet operating manual that gave you something to do every day

in order to move from where you are to living a lit up life. That's what I've created with my new book, how to live a good life appropriately titled. I hope it's really, it's an operating manual that draws from literally thousands of hours of research, hundreds, actually maybe even thousands now of hours of learning and sitting at the

feet of astonishing teachers and traveling the world to create something simple, a beautiful, simple model and something to do every single day for you to make a really big difference in your lives. If you want to check it out, go to goodlifeproject.com slash book. You can read the first chapter completely for free. And then it is available for purchase at booksellers all over the place. You can find a link in the show notes as well. On to our show. We're hanging out. It's the morning after for you, this really cool event that you did at BAM,

which is in Brooklyn for those who don't know the city. Tell me a little bit about that because you're coming off of this really cool thing. Let's just dive right in there. Well, so it started, I had to plan a book tour, right, for Love Warrior. And book tours scare the big Jesus out of me, because I became a writer so I could stay in my pajamas. Like, this is what we do, right? So we don't have to go out. Trust me, I know that. Yeah. And I'm just a raging introvert. I just, I love humanity, but like actual humans are tricky for me, you know? And I just, it's like a lot of like, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me.

And I'm really uncomfortable with that because my family is just, has always taught me to not be like that. So I was talking to my dad about it one day, like, what should I do with this book tour to make it mean something other than look at me, you know? And he was like, well, he always says this. He's like, well, you know what I say, when you get to the party, you got to dance with the one that brought you. And so I thought, all right, what brought me to this, which is always truth telling and service, right? And love. So I thought, wouldn't it be cool to, instead of just going around the country, talking about myself and talking about the book, Love Warrior, wouldn't it be cool to actually create a tour of actual love warriors, like of actual, you know, just badass people who are doing, who are living out their purpose in their lives,

whether it's activism or art or relationships or whatever it is for them. And then invite the kind of people who would show up at an event like that, who are also like what I would consider the love warriors in each community. So that's what it is. It turned, and you know, at this moment in our country, when we're being sold so much fear and division, it felt like the smartest thing to do to bring all those kinds of people that were being told to fear into one place. So, you know, on stage, we have a Sikh activist, and we have an African American preacher, and we have a Buddhist yoga instructor, and we have a Jewish leader, and we have, I'm like the token white lady. And then we have artists coming in. Alicia Keys was there last night, and she's just like a revolution on her own.

Like, I can't. God. So powerful. So powerful. Just all these people just, you know, I think when we're being told to fear each other so much, we feel like we have a couple options. One is to, like, be silent because we get scared, right? We're scared to say the wrong thing or whatever. So we just stay silent. Other option is to rage and rail against that,

which kind of just adds more fuel to the fire and then everyone hates each other more. But I've discovered that there's this third option, which is that you can just bring people together, right? Like, because fear actually can't survive proximity. Yeah, well, I mean, it's like fear is an anticipatory emotion, right? Once you're no longer anticipating and you're in the moment and you have the ability to actually respond to what's in front of you, it's like, okay, I'm either scared now, but I'm going to deal with it. But there's no anticipation anymore. It's like it's happening here. And it gets dismantled really quickly if it's not. I mean, mortal fear, if you're, you know, some are

really dangerous, it's legitimate fear. And whether you're in the moment or anticipating it, it's legit. But when it's not founded, you know, and then the moment comes where you actually have to reckon with it, and you realize there's no foundation in it, you can't, it's nearly impossible to sustain those beliefs. Yes. I'm going to write fear as an anticipatory emotion. That is it. That is such, my therapist tells me that. She does.

Because anxiety. I was just on the phone with her before. Right. Good. Most people should call her before they talk to me. Yeah, because that's the definition of anxiety, right? Right. You're living out there.

The future. The future, the future. God, yeah. Yeah. And especially now. I mean, it's just, it's a time of such fear and anxiety in the U.S. and I think just around the world. I love, so everywhere you go, do you bring a symbol, sort of like the representatives from different people and different cultures in whatever that community is yeah that's the goal i mean right now we're traveling with those activists that i

just told you oh so you're coming with you yeah oh yeah we go to that we go to every city together and then we pull in um like a local person from that community who people might see as a voice that wouldn't go with ours like we had abby wombach Like we had Abby Wambach and we had, um, Alicia Keys. And we have, I mean, we just have a bunch of badasses in each city who just come up and kind of hometown hero type thing.

Um, but they just all have the same vibe, which is like the only way we're going to make it is together. Yeah. What's the biggest surprise that's come out of this so far for you out of those experiences? Like, cause I know you,

you have to go in with sort of like a certain set of expectations, um, but also being open to like, look, I don't know exactly what's going to come out of those experiences? Because I know you have to go in with sort of like a certain set of expectations, but also being open to like, look, I don't know exactly what's going to come out of this. What's emerging out of it that we're like, huh, I didn't see that coming? So I guess one of the things for me is that doing live events, I'm used to doing them myself.

And so there's all kinds of control that goes into it, right? I mean, everyone's like, oh my God, that's so amazing. I can just answer those questions like that. Like, I'm like, okay, well, I've practiced them for hours. Like it takes me a long time to sound this spontaneous, right? I like pace in my bathroom. My dogs have to hear all of my crap over and over again, because I just try to control a lot of it. When you get into a live events thing with a million moving parts and all these other people, there's just this surrender that happens. And it's very uncomfortable for me. These people are expecting me to put on a show.

I need to have all the details worked out. But then last night, it's like the balance between making something happen and letting it happen. There has to be both, you know? And last night, there was just so much like fierce love in the air. And it was supposed to be over and our time was up. And Alicia just turned to us and she said, I have to sing. She wasn't supposed to sing. She was just supposed to talk. And it was like this, like filling up and pouring out. And we were out of time. And we were going to get charged more for keeping the stage open.

And we were just like, then sing. Like, Alicia Keys doesn't say, I'm going to sing. And you say, no, thank you. Right. And she just belted this thing out that was so beautiful and unplanned. And I sat there and thought, this is what happens when you let go a little bit. Yeah. You don't try to control everything.

It's amazing when you surrender to serendipity just the slightest bit it's like all this stuff happens that you didn't plan tell me if this has been your experience because this has been my experience is that so often the the best stuff that ends up happening is is the stuff where you plan really hard and then you let go and it's it's like the one or two things that you completely didn't see coming and weren't, had nothing to do with the plan that ended up defining the experience. Every time.

Yeah. And I would say to that, that a very important part of that is planning. Like I can't stand the people who are just like, whatever, like that, it doesn't, it's not it.

That's not what we're talking about. Right? Like, that's like the whole, like, Oh, I'm going to, this is my friend's most important moment of their life.

And they've asked me to do a toast. I'm just going to speak from the heart. Every time someone says that, I'm like, no, no, don't do it. That just means you were lazy and didn't want to write the thing. Right. So I think that it's like, I always say like faith and sweat, right? There has to be the sweat that goes into it. And then there's the surrender, right?

But don't like show up and use laziness as serendipity. That's such a good point though, you know, because I think a lot of, there's a lot of conversation now around sort of like the idea of surrender and the world comes to you and everything you want comes to you. And I so often wonder if the missing part of the conversations, I love, what did you say? Faith and sweat? Faith and sweat. Is that the surrender doesn't often yield what you hope it'll yield unless until the sweat really has to come first. And I think a lot of people forget that it's, well, it all happened when I just let go. But it all happened when you just let go after you worked really hard to get

to the place where you let go. And if you don't go there, it's a different experience. Totally. I mean, I hear that all the time now, because with what's going on with the book and people will be like, God, this must be so exciting for you. Like this just all happened. Like this is this overnight thing must be. And I'm like, well, overnight, but also like 12 hours of work for the last 10 years. Right. Literally. Right. And it's like, did you read what's in the book? Right. Like, oh my God, just overnight. This is so, you know, so yeah. I mean, it's that whole,

like everybody has a dream and you have to respect it by, like, working your ass off. And then I always say, like, I call, you know, whatever the force is that helps us with things, God. But whenever I work my ass off, and then I show up at a place completely prepared, and then I let go. So I literally walk on stage and think, okay, I showed up, God, your turn. And then I let go. So I literally walk on stage and think, okay, I showed up, God, your turn. And then I let go. But I feel like, and maybe because I'm Catholic, I have a little bit of, or I was Catholic, so I have a little bit of an angry God in my head

that I'm trying to unlearn. But I always think like if I showed up and didn't prepare anything and was like, okay, your turn, God would be like, awesome. I'll work just as hard as you did. Right? Like, it's a partnership. Like, we're co-creating things together.

So I have to do my part. God does her part. It works out. Yeah. Tell me about, you seem to have a really strong evolving relationship with that definition of God, source, universe. You were brought up, it sounds like pretty strict Catholic. We were, I don't think we were so strict. I mean, I think you get messages from the Catholic Church that seem strict, regardless of whether your parents are talking about it.

Yeah. My family didn't talk a lot about God at home, which was so helpful. Like sometimes I feel like the people who have the most healthy relationships with God when they're older are the ones whose parents didn't say anything. Because you have so much less to unlearn. You know, everybody that I know that has a loving, helpful relationship with whatever that force is, is somebody who doesn't have a lot of crap attached to it. Who doesn't have a lot of rules or like, it's not a system. It's more of just, it's that surrender. Like there's a good, loving force that wants the best for me.

It's really all it is so when did you come to a place where you sort of said okay i get to define this the way that it makes sense for me in my life i mean if that's been a struggle for me my whole life and i and i think now is the time that i'm coming into it the most when i figured out that the church is not God. They're two completely different things. I almost, I mean, I did reject God for a long time because I can't stand a lot of the church's messages about God. But God is something else entirely. I'm a Sunday school teacher.

I'm like a church lady. But I don't go to church for God. I go to the beach for God. I talk to people. I see God in people. I see God in nature. I go to church because I like to have a community that's based in goodness and is trying to be nice to each other. Like basically that's the whole rule.

Like you have to try to be nice at church. That's like what we're doing there, right? I like that but i don't know even when i was like really drunk all the time and so lost and a bad girl for all intents purposes that was my job to be as bad as possible um i just always felt like there was this loving being just waiting for me to it wasn't mad at me that was just kind of like sitting there like okay are we gonna get started anytime soon i mean it? I mean, it's interesting because if you look at the journey that you've taken, it feels like over the last five years or so, it's almost like you're building your own congregation around your own set of rules or slash unrules. And it feels like, you know, and it's what you described last night, you know, what you're effectively doing is building your own church of love. Yeah.

You know, and your congregants are love warriors. And that's sort of, you know, that's, it's almost like you're reconstructing this in your life the way that you want it to be. Which is interesting that you say that because that's how the early church started, right? It was like through writings. So writings that some people sent out to the world. And then the leaders of the church would just go around and meet with the people in each city and speak. Which feels a lot like what we're doing right now. So I remember I applied to go to seminary two years ago in the middle of all this.

I was like, I want to be a minister. I want to just like be a badass minister. I wrote to my, one of my mentors, my eighth grade history teacher, this Jewish lady who I'm so obsessed with. I just, I'd do anything she told me to do. And so I said, I need you to write me a recommendation. I'm going to go to seminary. And she wrote back and said, like, hell you are.

You are not going to seminary. You're going to keep your ass in this. You are a minister. Like you keep, the to keep your ass in this you are a minister the last thing you need is walls you just keep showing up and you keep ministering to the people that you already have you're not going to seminary

I was like okay, thanks Miss Yellen, never mind what was it to make you want to go in the first place though what did you perceive it had that you weren't experiencing then? So I am, because I think I got suckered into the idea that you have to be part of an institution to change an institution, right? I think that there's so much hurt that has come directly from the church, right? So there's a lot of healing, too.

But, you know, I work a lot with the gay and lesbian and transgender communities, and it makes me just freaking crazy the messages that the church gives these families. And so I kind of had this idea that in order to dismantle those ideas that the institution of church has caused, you had to do it from inside the church. So I basically wanted to just go into the church and just blow up crap, right? Just like start, you know, just actually going back to like... So it's like you're going to divinity school to be sort of like a subversive in the organization. Yes. Like to be a spy and then to plant all the things that... But that's what I'm trying to do anyway. I mean, I speak in churches all over the country. Yeah. What you're doing is really fascinating to me on this level. Well, on a lot of levels, but I spent a lot of time studying revolution theory and how nonviolent revolutions work. the current church, but it's creating something that is, that gives everyone what they're looking for in it. And it is appealing enough that you're sort of pulling people to you and whatever happens with the church happens. Um, but you want to give them a different path to move to. It's sort of

you're slowly removing what they call the pillars of power. Um, but it's interesting. You're at the same time as you have really mixed feelings about this institution you know on the one hand you're like no no no no no on the other hand you're like yes yes yes for some of this stuff it's more about the essence of it than the trappings like that's what you want to wrap people around yeah and there's something i love about it i mean just like the jesus thing like i mean everything that you know know, the cultural Jesus is so different than the actual Jesus that I read about in the Bible. What's the difference between cultural and? Well, like, the cultural Jesus, like.

I'm a New York Jew, so. Okay, right. Well, I mean, like, you know, what people think of as Christians. Yeah. Like, judgmental people who, like, just care about, like, the faith is like this evacuation plan where you just like be really good here. And then you get to go to this other place and, you know, Christian people, the number one thing that people say when they hear Christian, I just read is that Christians hate gay people. Like, it's just so crazy. And like the Jesus that I read about just walked around asking two

questions, one of which is who is power forgotten. And the second is who is religion oppressing. And then he just gathered those people, right? So the irony is that anybody who walking around doing what Jesus did gets freaking crucified, right? Without irony, right? By Christians. So, you know, I think that the actual Jesus I read about in the Bible, you know, he walked around asking those questions. So he ended up having dinner with lepers and prostitutes and tax collectors. Now, if you ask the same question, you end up, you know, who is religion oppressing? Who is power forgetting? You end up finding yourself speaking with and being with, you know, black kids and black mothers and black men and refugees and gay kids and the transgender community and the mentally ill and the addicted, all of these people.

So when I walk into churches, I'm like, if you're not inviting these people in to sit in the front and lead you, I don't know what you are. But this can't be a Christian church, right? Like, it might be a country club. It might be a club where you can find people who are like you. But if I don't see any of those faces around here we're certainly not asking the same questions that jesus did but i love your idea of create what you said about creating something new that's what i'm that's the third way for me like there's there's the silence and then there's the anger

so like i'm taking down this institution i that. I get that in my blood. Like that boils in me. That's where I tend to go. Anger and I'm going to burn this stuff down. It's not the right what's wrong with the current situation. And right, at the same time, it's easy to say, let's take this sucker down. It's really hard to say, here's something that we can create that solves the problems of it. It's really, really complicated on every level. I think, yeah, we see a lot of rally cries in the world, just about like, let's take this sucker down. And it happens. And then everyone's kind of saying, oh, it doesn't feel good either. Like now what? Because we thought like, it's really hard to build that next thing that is in some way meaningful and better. Mayday, mayday We've been compromised

The pilot's a hitman I knew you were gonna be fun On January 24th Tell me how to fly this thing Mark Wahlberg You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die Don't shoot him, we need him

Y'all need a pilot Flight Risk The Apple Watch Series 10 is here It has the biggest display ever It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous

generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. You're an introvert. We share that wiring. And so as you build this thing that is a social movement that is attracting a huge number of people on a global scale. How do you deal with that? With being an introvert? Yeah. How do you lead from that wiring?

Well, one thing I've noticed is that there's a lot of this life that actually suits an introvert. So, for example, this conversation, we're two people. We're talking about real things. That's one of the reasons I podcast. Right. Because, like, put me at coffee where i have to talk about the weather and like i can't do i will i can't do small talk it's very very hard for me i'm not good at it i never learned how to like schmooze or the words mingle mingle scares

the bejesus out of me i don't know how to mingle so this kind of sitting down with one person and going straight to the deep stuff actually suits an introvert perfectly. Stage also does. This is shocking to me. I mean, when they told me I was going to have to be a speaker, I was like, what? Like, no, these aren't related. Like writing and speaking, different things completely. Like I want to be hidden.

But on a stage, you kind of are hidden. It's way different than walking into a cocktail party where you're just, where you have to, there's a division between you and the crowd. And to me, it feels a little bit like writing. Like I'm going to create this thing. I'm going to create the heck out of it. And then I'm going to deliver it like as a gift. And then that's it.

You know, it feels, I've talked to many introverts who say, yeah, the stage feels safe. Yeah, it's the same for me, which really surprised me as well. I love being on stage. I love speaking. I like being off of it also. Better, yeah. Right. But when you're done with that, so like when you're hanging out last night and you've got a –

and it's interesting for you last night also because you've got a big crowd there, like a packed theater. And then at the same time, you're holding the container for this small group of people on stage with you, right? When you're done with that, are you full or empty? Oh my gosh, that's a good question. I felt full last night. I don't think it's completely consistent.

I mean, I'm tired right now. I'm in the middle of a book tour and I'm tired and I think too much of anything hurts a little bit. So there's parts of me that feel a little bit empty right now. But after last night, I mean, there's just moments where there's things I do where I'm like, what am I doing here? Like this doesn't feel real. You know, it feels showy. It feels like, look at me. And then I end up feeling kind of empty because there's a shallowness to it. But last night, seeing all those people come together for goodness and celebrating differences and being fierce with each other, that was my dream, right?

Yeah. My dream was to use whatever shininess or light was coming my way to lift up voices that deserve to be heard, but may have less shininess attached to them. So maybe wouldn't have gotten heard any other way. So everybody left there last night. I mean, a lot of them came to see me and they left thinking about the other people, right? Like they, they know what to expect from me, right? But they were blown away by like Valerie, who's the Sikh activist, and Sean, who's just doing amazing work with her off-the-mat nonprofit, or Reverend Jackie, who's like just this fierce Christian preacher who's just preaching only love everywhere. So it just feels good. It feels bigger. I mean, we only can stick with things when they're attached to something that feels bigger than we are. Yeah. I think it's different also when you're speaking, at least different for me.

I'm curious whether it's for you too. When you're speaking in front of a room where you've created the container, you've defined the ethos, and people have raised their hand to basically show up and participate in something where it's safe. And the ethos is something which is literally just a resonance of the fiber of your being. It's more like you're just with your people rather than you're on stage presenting. And for me, that changes it. So normally, if I'm out keynoting, at the end of that, I love it, then I'm empty. But if I'm with my people, at the end of that, I'm still tired, but I'm full. I can't, that's exactly it.

I think that's what I meant by there are these places where I'm like, what am I doing? Like, it almost feels like you're selling yourself or something. I don't know, like, look at me, like me. Like, do you like me? Like that, I'm insecure enough that that's not good for me, right? But if the people there are already there because they like me, right. We're, we've been a part of this movement together.

It feels like a reunion more, more than like a tryout. Right. Yeah. So, yeah. And, and,

and I even find myself like last night, I think, I don't know, there were a couple thousand people there. I can't even do the whole keynote standup thing. Like I have to take my shoes off. I sit in a chair. There's all,

they're all out there, but it feels to me like we're just in a living room. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. We do, we do a summer camp and, uh, I think half the people who were quote keynoting this year were just hanging out with bare feet and jeans. But so as you're traveling around now, you're talking about this book. I want to talk about your writer's life a little bit. Okay. Cause you kind of came to writing, um, not by saying I'm a writer. No. What were the earliest sort of hints for you that, and by the way, we're having some soundscape brought to you by New York City streets in the background. This is validation that we are in Manhattan. What started it for you? Like, what were the earliest

moments where you're like, huh? So my first, huh? I mean, I was, was so I got sober and then like five seconds later I had like three kids and husband and this like sober like life that felt so hard I remember thinking everyone told me that sobriety would be so great like it sucks like this sucks this life is so hard I remember why I started drinking like this is so tough to be this responsible for so many people. And the way you write about it, I mean, also you were, you spent a lot of time partying and drinking. It was a central part of your life. Well, I mean, I became when I was 10 years old and every other addiction was just a morphing of that. So I start basically dropped out of life when I was 10. That's what I mean, I think addiction is just a hiding place. You know, I was super sensitive kid. And I think it's

addiction is where sensitive people go to hide from risk to hide from pain, to hide from love. So I didn't feel life at all from the time I was 10 to the time I was 26. And that's over. I didn't feel any of it. I stayed as numb as humanly possible. So when you are defrosting from 15 years of being numb, it hurts like hell. Everything hurts, you know? And so I, you know, at my first meeting, the first meeting I went to, I thought, oh my God, these are the most honest people I've ever met. Like my first meeting rocked me. I was like, this is what I've been looking for. Like people who are this freaking honest and banged up and jacked up and like not faking it anymore. And then I remember just being so depressed leaving. Like why do I have to come to this basement in this church to be honest?

Why don't we just do this way? Why don't we just be this honest all the time? Like if this works for people, this is the most successful program of all time, right? In the history of the world, because people can be honest with each other. So I remember this feeling desperate for a place to be that honest. And I sat down on my computer one morning and just let that real self who's always behind this representative self that we send out into the world. And he was always desperate to speak forward and just started typing as her. And I actually remember looking at the words on the white piece of paper and thinking, there she is. Like seeing my true voice on that page felt more

like looking into a mirror than I've ever felt looking into an actual mirror. You know, that moment that people describe to me, you know, dancers describe to me as like that's when their truest self, their truest expression of their self is when they're dancing or painting or whatever your thing is where you think, there she is. Like I can send my representative out to do the rest of this freaking work if for one hour a day I can be that person. That's when I knew I had to be a writer forever do you remember what you wrote that first time yeah yeah it was freaking facebook list it was like it was this thing was going on called the 25 things. People were just listing 25 things about themselves. And I was like, oh, I can do that.

And I wrote it like raw. Like my number six was, I'm a recovering food and alcohol addict, but I still find myself missing booze. In the same twisted way, we can miss those who repeatedly beat us and leave us for dead. And I wrote that and I was like, that's exactly right. That's how I feel. Like that's not something I'm ever allowed to say in real life. Like if I said that to somebody on the street, they would call 911. Like this is not, but that needed to be said. Like that is how it feels. And then I posted it and it was like, everyone else was doing it a completely

different way. And it turned into this whole drama. What was it inside of you that said that your first act of writing needed to be a public act? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, that's part of it for me because I think it's because as a recovering addict, I know that shame is like the kiss of death for us, right? It's not the pain that takes us out of the game. It's the shame about the pain that takes us out of the game. And so part of the shame killing for me is actually pulling out what's true and secret and scary and dark on the inside and like pulling it out into the light so that other people can see it. Because when that happens and enough people inevitably say me too. And then like those demons from the inside just become a lot less scary to me. So for me, crushing shame does have a lot to do with putting things out in the light for other

people to see. I know that, I mean, that's what a meeting is, right? Like if you just sat alone in your house and confessed all of your secrets, it wouldn't work as well. Yeah. I mean, but the difference between like a meeting and Facebook is that everybody else who's hearing what you're putting out is really similar to you in a lot of ways. And they're going, they have a struggle that they're all sharing. And that's sort of what people come together around. And they're also sharing on the same level. Yeah. Whereas when you put stuff out into sort of like the social ether,

it's kind of like, okay, I'm going to share on this level. I'm going to be real, and I'm going to be this raw, and I'm putting it out there for anybody. It's different. It's different, but when you said, like, the difference in a meeting is that everybody's sharing similar struggles. What I found is that that is also true in the general population, right? That there isn't anybody who's not recovering something, right?

Like you're either recovering perfectionist or you're recovering asshole or you're recovering drunk or you're recovering. I mean, we are all just trying to be realer and better. So yes, there is a difference, but the reaction to that Facebook post was what started Momastery because so many people were so desperate for something real, to read something real that spoke to like the true, their true selves. And in this age of social media, like everyone's just trying to put the shiniest version of themselves forward. It's killing us inside because we actually start believing that everyone else's lives are seriously like that, right? That they're all frolicking in fricking sunflower fields with their perfect children and that that wasn't manufactured. You're saying that's not true? No, there's no fricking sunflower fields. Like I haven't found a single one. No. I mean, life is messy and hard for everybody.

And it's not hard because you're making a mistake. It's just hard because it's designed that way. Because if it wasn't hard, we wouldn't need each other. And needing each other is the best part of life. So, look, I don't even recommend that you put all of your crap on Facebook. Like one interesting thing that I keep hearing about Love Warrior is that, you know, people say, oh my God, I can't believe she put that all out there. Like it's so much, it's so much. And this idea of truth telling in real time, like the thing about Love Warrior is that none of it is in real time. Like all of that happened four years ago. I never even mentioned in all of my,

you know, how many I was public for the whole entire four years that I was writing Love Warrior online. And I never even mentioned the word infidelity, right? Like when you're dealing with these personal topics that are so, that involve other people and are so personal and private and tender, you don't do any of it in real time. I don't ever do that. I mean, Carry On Warrior, I wrote seven years after I got sober, right? So it's like my friend Nadia always says, we write from our scars and not our gaping opened wounds, right?

Because when we write from our open wounds, the whole world just goes, oh, too much, you know, and then it feels needy as opposed to a gift. But when you've worked through it all behind the scenes and you've gotten a chance to mine your experience for all the gold and wisdom that it has, then you can offer it to the world as a gift and not a cry for help, right? So we cry for help behind the scenes with our people, with our little crew of people, not with Facebook, but when we're ready to present what we've learned to the world as a gift,

then we offer it as art. Yeah. Which I totally agree with. There's a certain amount of processing that has to happen, not in public. How do you feel about, I guess you're not a fan of radical transparency then, at least not in real time. I just think it's a dance. I mean, I don't, I don't, I think whenever people say like, here's the theory about that, or here's

the guidelines I follow for that, I'm just like, whatever, then you don't do it. Then I don't even believe you. Like there are no rules. Like I have my relationship with my community that's a decade long now. There aren't, there are no rules. All I know is that I can feel when it's right to talk about something. And I have talked about things in real time, not things that intricately affect my children and my husband and are real and deep and would make them vulnerable. But I've talked about more than probably most people would. And all I know is I wake up that morning and think it is right to talk about it today. Like this is the next right time. This is the next right step. But I'm living a chapter of my life right now

that nobody knows about and that nobody will know about until probably three years from now when I figured out what the heck all of it means. You know, it's like as writers, we go out and we're representing a version of ourself that happened three years ago because of the way the publishing world happens. Yeah, that's true. That's so interesting that you say that, because the expectation in the outside world is that everything happens in real time. And so when a book hits, you know, like it should represent sort of like what just happened.

But yeah, behind the scenes, traditional publishing is still a really long, slow process that represents almost a past life by the time it hits the street. I mean, the same fiber of who you are, but the circumstances are almost always profoundly different. And thank God for that. Because I would never, I mean, if this were three years ago, and I was on the road discussing the infidelity and the breakdown of my marriage during the breakdown of my marriage, I would be no good to anyone. Yeah. Right? Like, that wouldn't have been the right thing to do.

Yeah. I guess that's the fine line, though, is that it sounds like you've had this conversation many times at this point that people saying, like, oh, you share so much about. It's that the assumption is that it's real time and that do you find yourself when you're traveling around and when you're responding to people having to sort of like constantly repeat this line like this is i i don't share this level and this depth and this amount of rawness in real time while it's happening has that become kind of a mantra to a certain extent during this tour it i have and i think it's more of as an i'm repeating that as an act of love for my audience because I think because this vulnerability and truth-telling idea is out there now as these touch points for people. This is like the era of authenticity and vulnerability and truth-telling. These are the buzzwords that people get confused about what that means.

And then they put it all out there before they're ready and then they get rejected. So I have to keep reminding people it's not what you think it means. Like you didn't get the reaction that you wanted and here's why. It's because there's a lot of work that has to go into it beforehand. If you want to be an artist, you want to be an activist or you want, you cannot ask the world to save you. Like your job is to serve them. So wait until you have something to serve. And when you're desperate for validation or help or advice, then go to your therapist, like I do every freaking week. And I have on speed dial. I wonder where the edge of the container is that between like, and I think maybe this is where people get tripped up. I'm curious what your thoughts are in understanding where's the edge of the container where these are the people, this is the community, this is the ethos where I share in real time because we're all in this together and it's safe. And that next ring out doesn't know for a long time. Well, I mean, I don't know. I don't have that. I mean, I have my, right now,

it's so interesting to think about as I become like a public person. Now I have things where I'm sharing things with my community in Naples, in Florida. But with social media now, I mean, it's interesting. It's a surrender, right? I just do the best I can and I tell the people in my community what I need them to know about me and my family, knowing that at any time that news could be posted or a picture could be snapped or whatever. Yeah, just assume that it's going to end up around the world. I have to assume. So for me, it's the difference between, and I would tell you honestly that my answer to that is I don't know and it's probably the biggest struggle for me that I'm trying to figure out right now, is the difference between if I'm a truth teller.

Right. That's my whole thing. I'm a truth teller. What does that mean? Like what do I get to keep anything for myself then? Like does that mean that if I keep things private that I'm not doing my job? Like because that won't work for me. Like I already know that I won not doing my job, like, because that won't work for me. Like, I already know

that I won't live that way anymore. So what's the difference between secrets and privacy? You know, like this, I know right now, you know, my marriage, I did so publicly, you know, I did it so publicly. And like, the reason I did it publicly is because I didn't think we had a lot of problems. I didn't know what was going to go down, you know, I did it so publicly. And like, the reason I did it publicly is because I didn't think we had a lot of problems. I didn't know what was going to go down, you know. I thought we were okay. And there have been great blessings about sharing my marriage's life and huge challenges. And the interesting thing is, to me, that I'm discovering is that I wouldn't change any of that.

Like, it got me to where I am now in terms of not, I don't mean my job. I mean, it got me to this place in my life where I finally feel like I know who I am, but I won't do it again. My next relationship, I will not do publicly. It will be mine. I know that like with every fiber of my body. So that's something. Yeah.

What happens if and when, you can't even answer this question. I'm just, the curiosity is what happens if and when that next relationship is blossoming. And you're like, oh, there's stuff that's happening in this relationship that would be so helpful to share. Yeah. Well, I am dating now. Craig is too. I don't know. I think there's like this thing that happens that I've spent so much of my time thinking about what I have that can help the world. But I've got this stuff. I've got this wisdom. I've learned this thing. And what I'm learning a little bit, and I don't mean this like permanently or forever,

but what I think is happening is I'm learning everything you give away completely is then not yours between you. You know? Like, and there's this thing that happens that has to happen between two people where you just save some stuff that is only yours no matter how good it is like the better it is the more amazing it is to save right so i think for a while i mean and i think one thing i've learned is

it's a lot easier to go out and save the world than it is to stay home and love your family you know like i think i've got to figure that out i've done the world thing and i'm going to keep doing the world thing on some level but what i'm really curious and interested about now is how to build a magic relationship between two people. Yeah, really powerful thoughts. It's funny because I think about, you met my wife coming in here, we're business partners also, so we work together.

We're married for a long time. My line in the sand has always been sort of like, I keep that very, very private, my entire family, very private, even though I've been sort of semi-public for a long time now. And I write about lessons. I write about things that happen, but always in a veiled enough way so that I don't really know. And everyone's got to find that line to try for them. But I love what you just shared about the idea that when you give something away 100% to

the public, it's no longer between the two of you anymore. It's now. It's between all of us. And there is something, I think, really special and important that leaves the building when that happens. Leaves the building. And then how can the other person

not feel a little bit used? Right? Like, if what I'm doing is constantly using all of our life experiences to gather material, I don't know. I mean, I think that over time, I'm going to think back on my relationship with Craig and just understand more about how it must have felt

to be him, you know? Like, I... Again, I wouldn't change it. He's where he needs to be and I'm where I need to be. And we are definitely both braver and wholer and kinder and better people. And as a matter of fact, when we talk about our marriage, we always say like, wow, that was a raging success. Our marriage served the purpose in our life that it was supposed to serve. But the more I, you know how you have to like get some distance from something to see it more clearly? Almost always. Yeah. So now I just have, I'm just feeling, I'm feeling empathy for him in this whole thing. It cost us a lot. Everything that we've shared has cost us a lot, I think. So I have great respect for him for doing it

and for being a soldier during it, and also I won't do it again. Yeah. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming,

or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. You said something also which really resonated with me, which is it's so much easier to save the world

than to really focus on saving or just really deepening and building relationships with those right in front of you, the people closest to you. I see that so often, and I wonder why that is. I mean, it's got to be for whatever that... Well, first of all, because relationships are hard work because they just make us face our stuff.

Like when we're out being admired or being clapped for or like, nobody's asking us to face our stuff. Nobody's holding up a mirror for us. They're just clapping, clapping, clapping. But like the people who are closest to us see us. And so they bring us, they bring up in us the stuff that we don't love and that we need healed. And they bring up in us our anger and our fear and all of that stuff. Because I think the people closest to us are our healing

partners and healing hurts, you know? So I don't know. I mean, it's hard in the same way that for me, it's easier to stand up on a stage and speak about my most intimate things. And it was always harder for me to sit on a couch and talk to Craig about it. And I'd be like, what is wrong with me? Like, why? Like we would have moments on the couch where he would ask me a serious question. And my first thought would be like, why can't you just read the essay about that? I already said all that stuff, you know? And I think some of that is the way I grew up in my family. So my parents and I are really close. And my dad writes me these beautiful letters about life and the world and our relationship and what he's seen in my life that year. And I will every once in a while post one of them.

And people will inevitably say, God, I wish I could talk to my dad that way. And I always think, me too. We don't talk that way to my dad that way. And I always think, me too. We don't talk that way. We write that way. Like if we sat down at dinner, we don't talk about that stuff. You know, I learned that like you talk one way and then when you really need to say something, you write it down. So that's another thing I want to work on next. It's like I don't want to be my most intimate self with

strangers. I want to figure out how to be my most intimate self with my most intimate relationships. Yeah. I think it's a struggle that most of us have. I think probably most of us notice that when we're teenagers also. You come home and you're like,

I just told mom everything about what happened during the day. Go ask her or whatever it is. And that carries through to our entire lives. There's a sense of like, I did it once. I don't want to have to repeat myself. But if you share the first telling for your intimate partner, your closest people, then I wonder if you still have the compulsion to retell it publicly. Won't that be interesting to find out? Yeah, right?

I don't know. Yeah. I'm at the point, and that's scary to me, right? Because I'm like, what if I suck now? Like, what if I do this other thing? Right, it's like the classic artist, like, I'm going to have no material anymore. It's like... I bet that's not true, though. I don't think it is.

I don't. Because whenever I used to think that I wouldn't be awesome if I didn't get wasted every night. Right. Like my magic is in the whiskey. I was a mess. Like, so all I know is that art, being an artist has to be about getting closer and closer to what is true right so what i can feel in my bones that the next true thing for me is to like create a relationship that is real and true and that requires all of me right so i think that might be a win-win because like if i do that and I'm still a good writer and a good activist, that will be amazing. But if I do that and I suck at writing and activism, then that will be amazing because I'll have this thing, right? Or maybe you're entering a season where your artistry is in your relationship with an intimate other.

Mm-hmm. And your service to the world lies in your activism. And they're not the same thing. God. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so that's the thing, because it's easy.

I'm a love warrior, like i'm out there on stages talking to everybody about love and i don't know how to do it right so like i know how to do it in a in the public way like i used to say like i didn't understand romantic love like i thought it was i thought everybody was lying about it i didn't know what they were talking about. I used to say, you know, love is like a light and, um, some people are like, um, a laser. They can shoot it at one person. I'm more of like a floodlight. I just like to offer it to her. I used to like tell myself this crap. That's fine. But I think I want to figure out the laser one too, you know? So it's like an experiment. Yeah. Interestingly too, I think, I wonder if you do flip that, the biggest

impact that you can have is modeling, is going out and actually you know talking to large crowds and like and rallying people together on like what if the greatest form of activism that you can embrace is modeling profound love with one other person who's closest to you and then saying just do this just do this. Just do this. That's my favorite thing anyone's ever said to me. It's like the Mother Teresa thing where they said, how do I change the world? And she said, go home and love your family. Yeah.

You know? I mean, that's what we all want, right? We just want to be deeply loved and seen by just at least one person. That feels like the next revolution for me. It feels like it's what's coming off of you right now also. There's like, yeah. So we've been jamming for a while. It's like we've barely even talked about the book. But the book's been out there.

You've been interviewed a million times. I think people get a flavor for what it is. And you should absolutely, if you're listening to this, you absolutely must read it. It's really, you know, for Glennon's style on her approach to memoir. I think my sense is actually, if you haven't read it yet, and you read it now after this conversation, you can read it very differently too. But it's powerful read on so many levels. So as we sit here, you're in the midst of this big world tour. What matters most to you? Hmm.

I have this feeling that, well, I have all of these crazy feelings, but I'm just sensing everywhere I go, this like, even in this room with you, like there's this need and kind of, it is a dismantling and it's an unrobing. It's like people who are just desperate to feel themselves, to take away all the categories in the world. Like this is, it's like, I don't know if it's this time in this country where it feels so dark. And so because of all the darkness, there's this like light that's just like shining out that it's like this equal and opposite reaction. Like it has to be like our kind it's like a rock bottom i only relate to the rock bottom language because i'm an addict but it's like

we've hit rock bottom and so it's so painful and so now's the rising right and it's like all of the fear mongering has created this desperate need for love and connection that like reaches across all boundaries and it's just like the beings of each like reaches across all boundaries. And it's just like the beings of each other are meeting for the first time. It's like, that's the only way I can describe it. It's like a being, like right now I feel with you, like I don't feel any category. I don't feel like male, female. I don't feel like Jewish, Christian. I don't feel like all of it is just so clearly BS now. And it's like, the only thing that's going to save us is to see each other as just beings of love. And just fully like this experience today in this room right now, I feel like is changing me.

And that's how I feel like everywhere I'm going right now is that all the fear and division is just is dripping away. And what's left is this desire to connect with other beings. And it's so beautiful that I actually end up leaving a lot of places during this month crying and I just sit there stunned like there's something magical happening in the air right now and and like when I'll go places and I'll say do you feel it and they'll be like yes I feel something so right now I don't know I'm just trying to be fully present with the people that I'm lucky enough to have placed in my path. And if I answered that question really honestly right now, what's most important to me right now is getting my ass home so I can figure out what love is.

That's why I'm so happy right now. You guys can't see with this smile, just screamed across Glennon's face. It's like, yes, that's it. Yeah. Yeah. I feel really free and loved and excited. Like I'm 12 years old and it feels like a really, really hard fought forought-for gift.

I'm more excited about that part of figuring out that part of my personal life than I've ever been about anything. So it feels like a good place to come full circle. So the name of this is Good Life Project. So if I offer that phrase out to you, to live a good life, what comes up? I think the only way for you, to live a good life, what comes up? I think the only way for me is to live a good life probably because of my, I do everything based on recovery. I don't know what a good life is at all. All I know is that the way I run my personal relationships and my sobriety and my business is that I am always only going to do the next right thing, right?

That like for me, I'm not allowed for whatever reason to see the five-year plan ever or to see like what's coming even six months from now. What I've learned in my early sobriety and what I still do today is that if I am just still enough to go inside and not outside for what to do next, that's everything for me. Like when I figured out that I could turn off all the voices on the outside from friends, from family, from religion, from every institution in my life, and I could look inside and that every time I was quiet enough to ask the being that I call God what I should do next, that a knowing would rise up in me. And it doesn't have words. It's just more like gravity than like a argument that I would know

what to do next. And that's it. And that once I committed to that thing, the next one would light up and then the next one would light up. So, and then eventually if you just keep doing the next right thing, one thing at a time, that eventually turns into a good life, right? So that is all that I promised myself is that I will be still and know and do the next right thing. And then the final frontier for me, and which is the case for a lot of women is to do the next right thing and then not explain myself. Right? That's my new favorite thing. So the first step is to do it without asking permission or for consensus. So what women usually do is we know what to do, but we don't want to do the thing that we know to do. So we call like 38 of our friends, right? And we're like, what do you think I should do? And

they don't even know what they should do, but we think they're going to know what we should do. So I stopped doing that and started to just do the next right thing. But then I did the thing where I justified it to everybody, right? I had to explain because women, we just love to explain ourselves. So now I feel like the most badass thing that a woman can do is just not explain herself. That feels like power to me. So all I know about a good life is just the next right thing, one thing at a time, without permission or explanation.

Thank you. Thank you. Hey, thanks so much for listening. We love sharing real, unscripted conversations and ideas that matter. Thank you. Hey, thanks so much for listening. We love sharing real, unscripted conversations and ideas that matter. And if you enjoy that too, and if you enjoy what we're up to, I'd be so grateful if you would take just a few seconds and rate and review the podcast. It really helps us get the word out. You can actually do that now right from the podcast app on your phone.

If you have an iPhone, you just click on the reviews tab and take a few seconds and jam over there. And if you haven't yet subscribed while you're there, then make sure you hit the subscribe button while you're at it. And then you'll be sure to never miss out on any of our incredible guests or conversations or riffs. And for those of you, our awesome community who are on other platforms, any love that you might be able to offer sharing our message would just be so appreciated. Until next time, this is Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.

Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die.

Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk.